Time to Talk About the Buffett Rule

[Gregg]

I am arguing that those who earn more income should pay a higher percentage of their income to taxes in part because a lower percentage of their income is necessary for them to pay for the necessities of life and they have more disposable income.

The average grade in our schools is a "C". If all students who put forth the effort to get straight "A" report cards would simply hand over an appropriate percentage of their work to all "F" students then everyone would have a "C" and we would all be much happier.

Additionally, I just think it's ethically right for those who benefit from our economic system to contribute to making life a little less difficult for those don't benefit from it. If I didn't feel that way I would say that as a nation we should dismantle ALL social welfare programs and all regulations passed curb the natural tendancies of business that were passed during the Progressive Era.

Would you want to eliminate all Social Security, minimum wage, workplace safety, child labor laws and welfare and just let business go wild doing whatever they wanted unchecked to make money? If not, where would you draw the line? Isn't any line arbitrary?

I find it extremely ironic that in one paragraph you talk about "those (who) don't benefit from (our economic system)" and in the very next paragraph you put forth a laundry list of benefits provided to every member of our society specifically derived from our economic system. Your list covers multiple items that are provided to workers, the members of society who actually contribute. It also lists one blanket term, "welfare", through which those who do contribute support those who can't/don't/won't.

There are countless benefits provided to ALL members of our society by the government that are available to people regardless of their level of contribution. National parks, a strong national defense, access to airports, representation, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, Department of Energy Grants, the Center for Disease Control, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the interstate highway system, the Federal Reserve, FEMA, the Small Business Administration, Medicare/Medicaid, the Supreme Court, public education and on and on and on. ALL of those programs and thousands and thousands more are FULLY SUPPORTED by people who take advantage of our economic system and then pay their taxes. They are all made available to ANYBODY in this country, even those who pay nothing in taxes and so do not support the programs. It is egregious to say there are people in this country who do not benefit from being here.

I am of the Robin Hood camp. And unapologetic about it.

It's that first seemingly innocuous little word in "take from the rich and give to the poor" that is the problem. Take. To get into one's hands, possession, control, etc., by force or artifice: to take a bone from a snarling dog. To seize or capture: to take an enemy town; to take a prisoner. There are many examples of governments that elected to take legally acquired assets from its citizens by force, through legislation or otherwise. If you take a close look I'm not sure the desired outcome was achieved in any of those cases. But I'm sure it will be different this time.

[Alan]

The average grade in our schools is a "C". If all students who put forth the effort to get straight "A" report cards would simply hand over an appropriate percentage of their work to all "F" students then everyone would have a "C" and we would all be much happier.

rich-vs-poor.jpg (Sorry for the small image, click on it for a larger version)

[ApatheticNoMore]

rich-vs-poor.jpg (Sorry for the small image, click on it for a larger version)

Yes, life is just like a schoolroom, well for some people I guess. Those who say grades are a way to instill constant competition even in early life may have a point though. Remember always seek extrinsic motivation, it tends to lead to actual dislike of anything you have to do that's purely extrinsicallly motivated (even in those cases when it is not in itself dislikable) but ...

The thing about doing well in school is it doesn't even map all that well to sucess in the real world. It conditions people, but conditions them to what?

[creaker]

The average grade in our schools is a "C". If all students who put forth the effort to get straight "A" report cards would simply hand over an appropriate percentage of their work to all "F" students then everyone would have a "C" and we would all be much happier.

As another scenario they could also just sell the highest grades to the highest bidders and let the rest of the students scramble for whatever grades are left.

[Alan]

Yes, life is just like a schoolroom, well for some people I guess. Those who say grades are a way to instill constant competition even in early life may have a point though. Remember always seek extrinsic motivation, it tends to lead to actual dislike of anything you have to do that's purely extrinsicallly motivated (even in those cases when it is not in itself dislikable) but ...

The thing about doing well in school is it doesn't even map all that well to sucess in the real world. It conditions people, but conditions them to what?

But of course the discussion is not about schoolrooms, unless as an example of 'fairness' or 'spread the wealth' run amuck.

[Alan]

As another scenario they could also just sell the highest grades to the highest bidders and let the rest of the students scramble for whatever grades are left.

Or, you could also encourage students to do their best and have their grades reflect their abilities rather than their desires. You might even consider a good grade to be a reward for excellence rather than mediocrity.

Radical, I know.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The war on poverty has failed. More people are in poverty than in the 60's when these social programs really increased.

How can you even compare America circa 2012 to America circa the 60s? Loss of manufacturing base, union jobs, jobs for people without degrees (and I guess now many with) ... all this is nothing? I mean at least America circa 1960 and 1980 was closer (close but not really). And I very much doubt a lot of money is spent on the poor. A lot of money *IS* spent on medicare and social security, which do reduce poverty, but not much is spent on programs exclusively for the poor (a fraction of what is spend on bankster and corporate bailouts I'm willing to bet).

If you are actually are dealing with deep behavioral patterns, man noone knows how to change those. Really. A better society wouldn't hurt But at this point more and more people are falling into poverty (do ALL of them have deep seated problems?).

We need to do something different because all these social programs are not working.

Mostly have been cut to the bone anyway, that was Clinton's welfare reform.

There will always be rich people and always poor people.

Actually I don't think very many people really disagree with this as such.

But the middle class, what remains of it, has a giant target on their back and is going down, but they think they have no stake in the game. Hmm.

[loosechickens]

I'm honestly sick of this whole subject. And, no, I'm not going to spend hours Googling to buttress what I've said here. Most of us know it is true, because we feel it in our lives, and those whose ideological views are more in the dog eat dog view will always have wonderful talking points to muddy the waters. But the truth is that a LOT has changed in this country in the past thirty years, really since conservatives have gained power, from Reagan, on. And most of the actual growth in wealth and income during those years has gone to the very richest of the rich, who are the people who pull the conservative strings, despite the fact that a number who follow them don't really realize that, or somehow think that someday they are going to join them.

I give you this. It's an excellent picture of how, factually, the middle class is being hollowed out by these conservative ideas, that have been kicking around and gaining traction in recent decades. And, then, I'm off.......because real life is out here being wasted while I'm in here hitting my head against a proverbial brick wall. Those who might actually be interested in understanding what has happened in this country in recent decades, can click here. Those of you who believe wholeheartedly in that "free market", "cream rises" world, keep on keeping on, I guess.

http://currydemocrats.org/american_pie.html

[bae]

Most of us know it is true, because we feel it ...

When I see folks repeatedly falling into the use of thought-terminating cliches, refusing to address refuting information, refusing to provide specifics, relying on handpicked examples and nonrepeatable experiments, being unwilling to test, and using all the other shop-worn techniques of distraction and avoidance, I know I am dealing with people who have been inculcated with a belief system, and factual honest open discourse is of no further use.

[Lainey]

When I see folks ... refusing to provide specifics...

??
loosechickens just provided the link with all kinds of specifics. Is there any you care to refute?