Time to Talk About the Buffett Rule

[peggy]

SS isn't a 'scheme'. I realize you are too young to know this but 'The Poor House' wasn't just a state of mind. It was an actual place where poor people, mostly elderly, went because they simply could not afford to live anywhere. I know young people all think they will be wildly successful and well off when they retire, every one of them thinks that, but the reality of life is, you probably won't be. I'm not saying you will be a failure. You can live a comfortable life, able to pay your bills and eat, but most won't be able, for one reason or another, to save what they need to fund life beyond working years, which are finite, despite your incredible good health now. Stuff just breaks down. And by the way, Boomers paid into SS too, all our lives, so the blame game just doesn't work there.
And pensions are going the way of dinosaurs. So what are the elderly to do? You can't just take away SS and re-boot. People need to eat, today as it turns out, and tomorrow and the next and the next day. They also need utilities, again today and tomorrow. And the elderly need more health care cause stuff does break down. And it's not just heart transplants for everyone, but everyday stuff they need which will enable them to live quite a while longer in relative good health.

SS is here to stay, thank goodness, so we need to start at that point and go forward to fix it. Begrudging people SS is ignoring history, as well as our own national ethics of moral obligation. Are we a third world country or are we the United States of America?

Stuff costs. That's a fact. We can't run a modern, progressive country on yesterdays dollars. Sure there is some waste and abuse, but not nearly enough to make up the short fall. The super wealthy need to stop whining and pony up some more. Not a lot, but some. NASA needs to stop whining and realize we simply can't aford to go to the moon right now (or Mars or anywhere else). The military needs to stop whining and cut the budget, and quit promoting wars and all the glittery gadgets that go with it. The big oil companies need to stop whining (as do we) and not expect subsidies (and we need to stop whining and realize what a gallon of gas really costs)

On the other hand, the nations infrastructure really needs to be addressed. That is going to cost a lot of money, so we just need to get on with it and stop whining. We are not about to let our elderly go hungry and homeless, so we just need to stop whining and fix it already, without all the political posturing and gamesmanship.

[Gregg]

To be clear, the only problem I have with SS is that it was set up to be supplemental retirement income, not the whole shebang. I couldn't tell you exactly where or when that started to change for so many people. I'm not even looking for anyone to blame. We need to deal with where we are and what's coming in a way that won't throw a whole generation of retirees under the bus and, unfortunately, that is going to have to include raising more money.

Stuff costs. That's a fact. We can't run a modern, progressive country on yesterdays dollars. Sure there is some waste and abuse, but not nearly enough to make up the short fall. The super wealthy need to stop whining and pony up some more. Not a lot, but some. NASA needs to stop whining and realize we simply can't aford to go to the moon right now (or Mars or anywhere else). The military needs to stop whining and cut the budget, and quit promoting wars and all the glittery gadgets that go with it. The big oil companies need to stop whining (as do we) and not expect subsidies (and we need to stop whining and realize what a gallon of gas really costs)

On the other hand, the nations infrastructure really needs to be addressed. That is going to cost a lot of money, so we just need to get on with it and stop whining. We are not about to let our elderly go hungry and homeless, so we just need to stop whining and fix it already, without all the political posturing and gamesmanship.

Ya know peggy, for a liberal you're ok sometimes.

[creaker]

The big problem with SS has been the diversion of surpluses into the general fund and replacing them with IOU's. They knew the boomers were coming, but spent the money on other stuff instead on the misplaced notion that the next generation would be able pay for it.

Actually what's happened to this country over the past generation sounds a lot like the businesses Romnay is accused of taking over and gutting for profit.

[Yossarian]

And by the way, Boomers paid into SS too, all our lives, so the blame game just doesn't work there.

It's not a matter of if, it's how much.

Begrudging people SS is ignoring history, as well as our own national ethics of moral obligation.

And on this point I invite you to man up and sell it straight. The history of SS is as a quasi pension plan where benefits (eligibility, payments, etc.) are at least indirectly related to contributions. If you want an all encompassing committment to fundng the elderly, step up and get a national consensus. Debased systems, be it healthcare or SS, just result in inefficiency.

[peggy]

To be clear, the only problem I have with SS is that it was set up to be supplemental retirement income, not the whole shebang. I couldn't tell you exactly where or when that started to change for so many people. I'm not even looking for anyone to blame. We need to deal with where we are and what's coming in a way that won't throw a whole generation of retirees under the bus and, unfortunately, that is going to have to include raising more money.




Ya know peggy, for a liberal you're ok sometimes.

Well, what happened was pensions started going away. And health care costs went through the roof. If health care had risen only as paychecks and/or inflation, people would still be able to help themselves. But the rise was way out of proportion to the economy. And I think more elderly want to be independent. Where a few generations ago it was expected that the parents would come live with the kids, now they move to Florida to live independent lives. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you see it, we are living longer, so more health care issues for the general population instead of the few who outlived everyone else. Men, for instance, will ALL have prostrate problems, with a very large percentage getting prostate cancer. In the past, a larger percentage simply died of old age before these problems arose, but now, thanks to modern medicine, you can expect to live until your prostrate is as big as a basketball! I think medicine is starting to take a more realistic view of this, in that they are just trying to control the symptoms without trying to cure. That approach could probably be applied to a lot of things, but, as a compassionate society, we aren't going to deny grandpa a good shot at cure if he really really wants it.
But, because folks are living longer and more advanced medicine is keeping some going who would otherwise depart, it is increasingly difficult to keep our parents at home even if we wanted to. My own father, who has alzheimers and parkinson's, is still himself, most of the time, but the combination of the two diseases makes it impossible to keep him at home. The physical care required is simply beyond me, my sisters or my mother. so he lives in a nursing home. they take very good care of him, but it's expensive. Insurance takes care of some and my mother the rest, thank goodness she can, but in a very few years there goes her nest egg. She will always have a home with me or my sisters, but she will be broke, relying solely on SS and medicare.

So, that's what happened. Life happened. Or rather the realities of life happened. We did away with the poor house, but in doing that we accepted the responsibility. And really, SS wasn't intended to be the sole support, but it has become so for many simply because there isn't anything else. This isn't a demographic that can simply go out and get a job, or make more money, or just not get sick.


"Ya know peggy, for a liberal you're ok sometimes."


Thanks gregg. Actually, I'm not unlike most liberals. Most liberals aren't bleeding heart anyone's. Now days, we're pretty much where republicans were not that many years ago. *

*it would seem, history tells us that the push to the right coincided with the downward spiral of the economy, infrastructure, politics, moral direction.....

[JaneV2.0]

Absolutely. I'm a proud (mostly) Eisenhower Republican.

ETA: My g-grandmother spent some years of her (apparently miserable) life in a poorhouse. Not a family tradition I'm eager to honor.

[Yossarian]

OK, devil's advocate - anyone know what the cost differential is between group housing and individual housing? Everyone here apparently considers it abhorent, but what are we talking, a free place to eat and live? Throw in some healthcare and how bad is it? Personally I think more communal housing would be better for us. You are of course free to disagree when spending your own money, but if the public is footing your food and rent why can't we look for efficient ways to do it? If you can live separately for the same cost that may be better, but why should the public pay more to get you that luxury?

[chanterelle]

OK, devil's advocate - anyone know what the cost differential is between group housing and individual housing? Everyone here apparently considers it abhorent, but what are we talking, a free place to eat and live? Throw in some healthcare and how bad is it? Personally I think more communal housing would be better for us. You are of course free to disagree when spending your own money, but if the public is footing your food and rent why can't we look for efficient ways to do it? If you can live separately for the same cost that may be better, but why should the public pay more to get you that luxury?

Hey! it's Newt's 1990's era orphanage solution, only this time we warehouse our elderly poor. Cool!
Yes, since it's not your money, after working and paying taxes for a lifetime, or raising your children you have no say in where or how you live, because when you take government "charity" you become a second class citizen. Low income
removes your pride and independence.

Of course, since the government can't possibly run anything properly, building, equiping and running these places will just have to be privatized and since all govt workers ar just so over paid these places will be staffed with non-union low wage workers ...all the better to make sure that we have the next generation of elderly poor to fill these warehouses..
Really, it's not like SSI money goes back into the local economy in the form of food or clothing purchases. It doesn't pay rent or taxes on purchases or bus fare, haircuts, or gas or anything...society doesn't benefit at all from SSI. Such a waste.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about, old folks homes are not particuarly cheap I don't think. Or is this just an argument for getting roommates? Or should the government build giant warehouses to warehouse the old? Somehow that doesn't sound very appealing ...

If this is just some argument that there should be cheaper ways to feed and house yourself and meet the basic necessities in life than there are. Yes, well ... wouldn't want wage earners to have that option though - they might quit!

[Yossarian]

Really, it's not like SSI money goes back into the local economy in the form of food or clothing purchases.

Sure, just like healthcare costs, or military spending, or fancy GSA parties. It's all good, right? Maybe that's the solution to everything- the more the governemnt gives away the better we all are because hey, it all goes back in the economy.