But money is what is controls government. I suppose you can put government at fault, but if the government's intention is to run things as an oligarchy (plutocracy, corporatocracy, whatever you want to call it), what are they at fault for?Originally Posted by Alan
If ACTUAL experiments with government in the real world are any indication of anything, there is a difference between the welfare state and Hitler's fascism, a difference between the welfare state and Stalin's Russia. The rest of the world has it's problems, but they aren't necessarily internal fascism (although Canada and the UK would be next in line). The U.S. OTOH I fear is heading STRAIGHT toward fascism. And all the corporations won't be obstacles, they'll be part and parcel. And all the wealth inequality won't be an obstacle, in fact enough wealth inequality (beyond a certain point) all but requires a repressive state. (Clearly we can assume at the extreme - if masses of people were starving in the street and yet the wealthy were having a fine time, that force would be needed to keep down revolution. It's not there yet, oh it's definitely not there yet economically in this country - why economics are not my prime concern now. But the repressive aparatus is clearly there to react to anyone who resists their fate too much).how much outside control do you want over your life? Just enough to provide essential services, or more than enough to keep you at someone else's mercy? Also, if you choose 'more than enough' do you want to choose which areas you abdicate responsibility for or will you settle for the 'carte blanche' variety?
outside forces will have control, it's just a question of which ones, and degree, yes indeed and degree.I prefer limiting the control outside forces have over me. You may feel differently?
Trees don't grow on money
For overstepping their intended reach. Which they have in the past, and continue now to do.
Some of us appear to be in favor of it, some of us are not. Which side will prevail?
If those who want the government to overstep it's bounds in the hope of receiving something of value have their way, one of the un-intended consequences will most certainly be the fascisim ApatheticNoMore speaks of. The big picture is simply lost when we're focused on our immediate desires.
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
As a sidebar:
I recently attended my State's Republican convention, as a delegate from my county. A delegate for...Ron Paul.
At the convention, I was on the official Ron Paul state slate for delegates for the national convention.
I observed some disturbing, yet not unexpected things.
- The mainstream Republican machine bent over backwards to manipulate rules to prevent as much speech and access to process from the Ron Paul folks as they could manage. The entire management of the convention was deliberately manipulated and staged to marginalize the ~40% or so of the people who were there for Ron Paul. The delegate team from entire counties in this state were made up of Ron Paul supporters, he is not a fringe candidate here.
- Attempts to put a few simple things into the state-level platform to recruit the support of the Paulites, things having to do with civil liberties, were rejected out-of-hand by the Romney forces.
- Attempts to unify the Romney/Paul factions were simply crushed out of hand by Team Romney. They didn't want to even hear the Paulites' issues, or give them any part in the discussion. They had the force to simply dictate, and they did so. As a consensus kinda guy, who believes everyone has a piece of the truth to share, this saddened me.
- The power of The Orthodox Political Machine, and Lots of Money were amazingly evident. At either end of each row of delegate seats on the main convention floor were orange-shirted, orange-hat wearing Romney team leaders (very eerie...), with signs in their hands to indicate YES or NO votes, and radio communication between each other. Whenever the convention was moving towards a vote, they'd all stand at once and hold up their signs, to indicate how their army should vote. It was very well organized, and very well funded.
- I attended some of the Ron Paul organizing sessions, and some of the Romney ones. It was like watching Cub Scouts plan a camping trip vs. watching the Allied Forces planning Normandy.
I am convinced at this point that the whole grass-roots, convention/delegate process is simply meant to distract, decoy, and delay interested citizens, while established political parties with many decades of organizing experience steal the show, time after time.
It sickened me.
If you believe that money controls government because superior financial resources can purchase enough advertising to secure a voting majority, doesn’t that require you to believe that we are mindless automatons waiting to be programmed by television? And if that’s the case, doesn’t it follow that the best we can hope for is to receive our programming from a more compassionate elite?
They all do - the end result of any government is oligarchy. Either by the consent of the governed (what we currently pass off as "democracy") - or not (fascism, totalitarianism, the current situation in Syria).
Not at all - the people benefitting off that system + the ones swayed just has to be more than 50%. And given the move in some places to throw people off voting roles, I think they're worried about that 50+%
And a large amount are not mindless automatons -they're being presented distorted realities, and mostly have very little access to what is actually going on and what could be done.
+100 Maybe we're just running into resource limits? Like how many people have masses of time to devote to learning about politics? But what if even being somewhat informed is a large time commitment? Then being automatons or not really has nothing to do with it one way or other.And a large amount are not mindless automatons -they're being presented distorted realities, and mostly have very little access to what is actually going on and what could be done.
Trees don't grow on money
Thanks for the inside information bae.
Trees don't grow on money
That's an interesting observation. Luckily, our founders foresaw that tendancy and intentionally created a Republic rather than a Democracy (which historically crushes itself under it's own weight). Under the 'Iron Law of Oligarchy", any democracy is actually an oligarchy.
That's why I'm a fan of founding principles.
Last edited by Alan; 6-11-12 at 2:52pm.
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote