Iris lilies, how are things in your hood? [Archive] - Page 2

rodeosweetheart

8-19-14, 8:29am

If a photographer from Getty or a reporter from CNN or for that matter, the family of Michael Brown sue, what good does that do? I hardly think it will change police behavior. Do you think that suing people after the fact is going to change how police respond when being fired upon, having Molotov cocktails thrown at them--by their own countrymen, not by someone in a war zone? How will the money given to these people, if it is given at all, do anything to make a merchant more likely to continue to operate a grocery store in a neighborhood where the citizens break the windows and steal his merchandise? How safe is it for children to have all this glass shattered around them, to have perps shoving clerks and stealing from them, to be assaulted or shot by a mob--that Amnesty INternational comment about children being subjected to the potential of being tear gassed--what parent in their right mind puts their child in that place where that is happening?

If people sued and got big settlements from someone--who--the city of Ferguson? Who has this money to pay them--but if they did get settlements, then how does that translate into changing the cultural scene that we are seeing played out over the past few days? Because I really do want to know why anyone is happy to see the latest police arrest of a journalist--why is this escalation in anarchy a cause for glee?

Gregg

8-19-14, 9:15am

Ok, I'll admit it, there is a part of me that is.....maybe it's the Scorpio in me seeking justice? I don't know. But yes the thought of many successful lawsuits against the authorities in Ferguson based on their behavior this week (after the killing) makes me feel peace and calm. Rob

1430

ApatheticNoMore

8-19-14, 10:17am

If a photographer from Getty or a reporter from CNN or for that matter, the family of Michael Brown sue, what good does that do? I hardly think it will change police behavior.

Probably not, a cop who threw a projectile at an Occupy protestor in CA and left them permanently brain damaged got 3 years paid leave and then rehired EVEN THOUGH the brain damaged person sued and got 4.5 million dollars from the city (3 years paid vacation - tell me to what other employee in the world that would happen to? And after costing their employer 4.5 million dollars to boot).

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_26246227/oakland-officer-fired-over-occupy-is-reinstated

Do you think that suing people after the fact is going to change how police respond when being fired upon, having Molotov cocktails thrown at them--by their own countrymen, not by someone in a war zone?

Which may be by infiltrators for all we know. I don't say it is (don't have proof of that and some do advocate violence - they aren't necessarily from the community people are so eager to blame though) and don't say it isn't (because such things are known to happen). If it is such documents may be released soon or may be in 30 years. If they are most will have very little interest in them because it won't be reported on CNN.

How safe is it for children to have all this glass shattered around them, to have perps shoving clerks and stealing from them, to be assaulted or shot by a mob--that Amnesty INternational comment about children being subjected to the potential of being tear gassed--what parent in their right mind puts their child in that place where that is happening?

in the riots at night probably none, in the protests if they are raising activists. Now look I don't say one should raise activists (though if one thinks it's activism to change things or the system will target your kids when they grow up anyway then ...) as politics in general is kind of heavy stuff for a kid (they aren't usually at a developmental level to understand) but ...

iris lilies

8-19-14, 10:53am

...What about the store owners who have been looted? Maybe they could go after some of robs buddies who he thinks are going to get a windfall from all this.... .

This article

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/family-unites-to-ward-off-threat-to-store/article_e424da6b-c354-59b0-9eeb-6a28f2e50051.html

talks about a store owners who now nightly is, with his family, setting up with guns to protect his own store, the police can't protect him.

Yesterday I heard a radio interview with the attorney hired by the market where Gentle Giant Mike Brown performed his robbery. The lawyer was acting as spokesperson and wanted to get the message out to the world that this store owner has done business in Ferguson for 5 years and they are part of the community. The did not call the cops on Mike Brown, a customer called. Nor did they voluntarily turn over store video footage to police. I'm reading between the lines this message and think it means "don't kill us! don't harm us! we didn't turn him in, we aren't snitches!"

What happens in places like this is that business owner move on, places like Ferguson go downhill and residents in the community are left without commercial services. And then there is moaning and complaints about food desserts and etc.

Yossarian

8-19-14, 11:12am

What happens in places like this is that business owner move on, places like Ferguson go downhill and residents in the community are left without commercial services.

Well, that's not really important. What really matters is being popular with Rob's friends on social media. You probably get better connections when the cellular infrastructure isn't burdened by people trying to make a living.

gimmethesimplelife

8-19-14, 11:38am

I have a lunch banquet today I am working downtown and I am leaving for it in a few minutes, so I won't be able to respond to you'all right away. Just want to stop by here and say that this is sort of like that thread on the carts that grocery stores in my neighborhood used to let people cart their food back to their residences with - I'm just amazed at the responses. Beyond anything I may have posted, I am amazed that we have posters here who have seen the excessive police force - arrests of journalists, teargas before the end of curfew, armored vehicles and guns trained on protestors, riot gear that is above what soldiers in Iraq were given when they were in combat, the police handing out information when they damn well felt like it - how anyone can be OK with this police behavior is completely beyond me. The facts that there are people who are makes me grateful to be lower income and struggling and see things the way I do. My net take away is that there is yet more reason to fear America and I can not wait for the lawsuits to start pouring in. It's like my mother told me when I was seven - the only way you can change anything in America is by terror of financial ruin. I don't believe this is true 100% of the time but my experience is it is true more often that it is not. This is why I look forward to the lawsuits. And I'd better get going to my banquet. Here's hoping that between now and the time I get back here there is relative peace out there in Missouri. Rob

PS Real quick - one more thing - Michael Brown's body was left out in the hot sun unmoved for close to five hours I'm reading online. When you stand up for the police, can you not see that you are saying this is acceptable behavior on the part of the police - to leave a dead body to sit there in the August heat for close to five hours? Disagree with me all you want, I've got tough skin and can take it, but.....my take here? It's the more humane one and I'm very grateful I have not given that away. Rob

Packy

8-19-14, 12:49pm

Well, they need to follow procedures--the body has to be left there, awhile. After all, he's dead. This is why the tragic Jonbenet Ramsey murder investigation was greatly hampered in a high risk/low frequency case in Boulder. Inexperienced case squad allowed the Body to be moved, scene not secured, evidence tainted, by people entering the premises. Besides, if theyda whisked his corpse off to the Ferguson morgue right away--aha!--evidence of a coverup! See? I could recite a number of instances in my area, where I happened by the scene of fatal accidents, and the victims lay at the scene, while the investigation was in progress. Unpleasant, yes; but, a fact of life? Yes.

Yossarian

8-19-14, 12:56pm

My net take away is that there is yet more reason to fear America

No doubt they have struggled to manage the situation. Standard tactics didn't work. Hug a thug didn't work. But dealing with violent people who operate from within innocent groups is a very difficult job, hopefully they learned some lessons this time. And I'm sure that if they would have removed the body quickly you'd be crying cover up and insufficient investigation. Some people are going to be critical no matter what.

In the end I do find it ironic that you and your lynch mob are so quick to abandon one of the most precious rights we all have- due process. You whine about what is wrong with America, but I'll tell you what's right about it- the rights of the individual are not subject to your tyranical posse or beholden to spineless politicians. The cop will likely be indicted. Let the judicial process work. If he is guilty he should be punished. But if he isn't and you still want to impose your mob justice, then I think you are the bigger threat to the future of this country than the bumbling fuzz.

Alan

8-19-14, 1:08pm

Just want to stop by here and say that this is sort of like that thread on the carts that grocery stores in my neighborhood used to let people cart their food back to their residences with - I'm just amazed at the responses. Beyond anything I may have posted, I am amazed that we have posters here who have seen the excessive police force - arrests of journalists, teargas before the end of curfew, armored vehicles and guns trained on protestors, riot gear that is above what soldiers in Iraq were given when they were in combat, the police handing out information when they damn well felt like it - how anyone can be OK with this police behavior is completely beyond me. The facts that there are people who are makes me grateful to be lower income and struggling and see things the way I do. My net take away is that there is yet more reason to fear America and I can not wait for the lawsuits to start pouring in. It's like my mother told me when I was seven - the only way you can change anything in America is by terror of financial ruin. I don't believe this is true 100% of the time but my experience is it is true more often that it is not. This is why I look forward to the lawsuits.

Rob you just have a different way of viewing things, a way that's foreign to most adults. I was astounded to hear you say that it was perfectly ok to take a businesses shopping carts home with you and leave it there for them to come and pickup after you parked it at your curb. Actually, I'm even astounded that you brought it up again. I think your outlook blinds you to the inappropriateness of that action.

I'm having the same problem trying to understand your thoughts on the Ferguson events. You get so wrapped up in indignation, seeing only what you want to see and coming to conclusions based on your biases rather than facts, it's hard to have an adult conversation about it. You're watching a group of people destroy a neighborhood, something that may take generations to overcome, and you want to punish the only people on the scene working to prevent that destruction. That just doesn't make any sense.

ApatheticNoMore

8-19-14, 1:42pm

Rob you just have a different way of viewing things, a way that's foreign to most adults.

Who knows what ways of seeing things are common to most adults. At best I suppose you could say "polls say" and try to show statistical validity, but even polls depend on how questions are worded etc... and who audits the polling?

I was astounded to hear you say that it was perfectly ok to take a businesses shopping carts home with you and leave it there for them to come and pickup after you parked it at your curb. Actually, I'm even astounded that you brought it up again. I think your outlook blinds you to the inappropriateness of that action.

I always assumed it was some type of regional or subcultural difference or something.

CathyA

8-19-14, 1:56pm

Good post Alan........although I did sort of understand the shopping cart thing.
But Rob.......it just feels like you are operating out of something from your past that was unfair/unjust to you, and now you're just not seeing the whole picture now. In a perfect world these things wouldn't happen.....but when they do, we have to look at facts, and also realize that it's not all black and white (so to speak). It's an extremely complicated situation. There are sooooo many factors. I fear you make your stand the second something happens, and it colors everything else you look at. It sounds like you really see yourself as a victim and automatically side with certain victims and just won't budge in seeing it any other way.
I'm sure alot of us are like that in one way or another. But it seems like you just take it too far. Something like "me thinks thou dost protest too much"....... It feels to me that you're fighting a very personal battle, and it colors your vision a bit. I'm not saying this angrily Rob. Just saying try to see the bigger picture, even if it doesn't come naturally.

bae

8-19-14, 2:54pm

Well, they need to follow procedures--the body has to be left there, awhile. After all, he's dead.

Yup. I've been involved in multiple death scenes. Until the coroner and sheriff release the body, it stays there and you maintain the integrity of the scene for evidence collection. Even clumsy firefighters and EMTs get training in this.

It's not like TV where they take a couple of snapshots, then drag off the corpse.

CathyA

8-19-14, 3:01pm

Maybe they should have one of those pop-up tents for around the body. That might have made people feel better. Wasn't there a big long blood stain outside the sheet?

I think television shows have made a lot of things seem wrong/inept to us these days. Everything is perfect on those shows; the CSI team and medical examiner always find everything out there is to find; everything happens in lightening speed.........whereas in real life, it takes months; There's always some video camera nearby that gets the crime on film, and if it's blurry, the tech guy can make it clear. It gives us all a false concept of how things should be.

The family of the dead young man say they just want the officer arrested. What do you all think about this? Would that be premature without an investigation, or is it fair to think he should be arrested? I really don't know.

Spartana

8-19-14, 3:13pm

Yup. I've been involved in multiple death scenes. Until the coroner and sheriff release the body, it stays there and you maintain the integrity of the scene for evidence collection. Even clumsy firefighters and EMTs get training in this.

It's not like TV where they take a couple of snapshots, then drag off the corpse.Back when I was getting my Criminal Justice degree I did one of my internship on a CSI unit with a large sheriff's dept for a semester and they often left bodies there for many, many hours. Standard procedure. It is commonplace though to put up tents and other coverage to protect the body - and any evidence - from the elements. However it is a HUGE no-no to physically cover the body with a blanket or tarp or anything else that touches the body and may destroy or taint any evidence. Just doing that, or changing anything on or near the body, can mean that any evidence collected can be thrown out of court.

As for Rob's (or anyone's) desire to see rioting and it's carnage go on without a police effort to stop it...well that's just something I don't understand. Yes, peaceful protest is OK and was allowed, but why cheer for looting and rioting? Don't get that at all. Citizen's and their property should be protected. Rioting and looting should be stopped. People who voluntarily choose to remain in those areas when violence starts need to leave asap or suffer the potential harm that can come either from rioters or from police who are trying to quell the riots. Personally I don't understand why such things are even applauded when WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED YET. There is an investigation, the Grand Jury be will be convened to hear the evidence against the cop, and most likely, if it's not ruled a justifiable homicide, that cop will be found guilty at trial and sentenced. Why lay waste to your city and run rampant in the streets until you know the outcome of a trial? Rob may think that the rest of the world looks at us a totalitarian police state where rogue cops rule, but I think they look at us as a bunch of crazed whacked out people who riot and loot and cause harm just for kicks and no one stops it.

bae

8-19-14, 3:13pm

The family of the dead young man say they just want the officer arrested. What do you all think about this?

What would you arrest him for?

What does "arrest" mean? When are you allowed to "arrest" someone? What are the standards?

What happens if you "arrest" someone without proper cause?

And in related news, The New Black Panthers are leading marches demanding the officer's death. There's Rob's social media at work! (The NBP took longer than I had predicted to get to this, though I'm still waiting for the reward to be offered.)

bae

8-19-14, 5:07pm

Well, while I don't have confirmation of this story, it more-than-meets Rob's standard of proof:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/

As it happens, I am quite familiar with these sorts of facial injuries. In addition to my professional training, I was on a jury a few years ago with this exact same sort of damage resulting from a violent assault - I had to suffer through seemingly-endless medical testimony on the subject.

Sure *looks* like someone may have hit the officer quite hard in the face. Wonder what was going on when that happened?

Of course, best to wait until credible evidence is presented by credible sources. Say at an inquest or trial....

The Gateway Pundit can now confirm from two local St. Louis sources that police Officer Darren Wilson suffered facial fractures during his confrontation with deceased 18 year-old Michael Brown. Officer Wilson clearly feared for his life during the incident that led to the shooting death of Brown. This was after Michael Brown and his accomplice Dorian Johnson robbed a local Ferguson convenience store.

Local St. Louis sources said Wilson suffered an “orbital blowout fracture to the eye socket.” This comes from a source within the Prosecuting Attorney’s office and confirmed by the St. Louis County Police.

A blowout fracture is a fracture of one or more of the bones surrounding the eye and is commonly referred to as an orbital floor fracture. (AAPOS)

This comes after St. Louis Post-Dispatch reporter tweeted out last night that a dozen local witnesses confirmed Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson’s version of the Brown shooting story.

More… The St. Louis County Police told reporters after the shooting that the police officer involved suffered facial injuries. He “was hit” and the “side of his face was swollen.”

CathyA

8-19-14, 5:45pm

iris lilies

8-19-14, 5:58pm

Hmmm.....just heard on the news that the police (in Ferguson) shot a guy who was stealing from a store, and wielding a knife and coming towards the police.
Are these people just plain crazy?? (the thief, that is).

Actually, yes, this particular shooting victim was mentally disturbed (or is being portrayed that way) and this happened 4 miles from the riot area and in the City of St. Louis, not Ferguson.

CathyA

8-19-14, 6:04pm

Oh.....our local news made it sound like it was in Ferguson.

bae

8-19-14, 6:12pm

Interesting stat: only 25% of the people arrested during last nights' riots are actually from Ferguson.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/missouri-ferguson-agitators/

gimmethesimplelife

8-19-14, 8:47pm

As was posted above, someone else was shot today - and my local news made it sound like it was in Ferguson, too. Glad to hear from IL that it wasn't. That said, I have two things to say. The first is that I am taking a 24 hour break from this thread. I find the topic very upsetting and honestly, by this point everyone pretty much knows where I stand on these issues.

The second thing is that I have a date Friday night due to my stance of Ferguson - can you believe it? For the first time in more years than I care to admit to in public I'm actually going on a date. Still stunned by that one. How it ties into Ferguson is after my banquet shift, a bunch of us were waiting for the light rail - and this guy I have worked with before went up to me and started talking about Ferguson and asked my take on it. Apparently I said what he wanted to hear as he asked me out but I was 100% honest. So we'll see how this goes. Very bizarre to me that the tragedy in Ferguson could lead to such a thing happening, I honestly thought that part of my life was over and had accepted it. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-19-14, 8:50pm

Back when I was getting my Criminal Justice degree I did one of my internship on a CSI unit with a large sheriff's dept for a semester and they often left bodies there for many, many hours. Standard procedure. It is commonplace though to put up tents and other coverage to protect the body - and any evidence - from the elements. However it is a HUGE no-no to physically cover the body with a blanket or tarp or anything else that touches the body and may destroy or taint any evidence. Just doing that, or changing anything on or near the body, can mean that any evidence collected can be thrown out of court.

As for Rob's (or anyone's) desire to see rioting and it's carnage go on without a police effort to stop it...well that's just something I don't understand. Yes, peaceful protest is OK and was allowed, but why cheer for looting and rioting? Don't get that at all. Citizen's and their property should be protected. Rioting and looting should be stopped. People who voluntarily choose to remain in those areas when violence starts need to leave asap or suffer the potential harm that can come either from rioters or from police who are trying to quell the riots. Personally I don't understand why such things are even applauded when WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED YET. There is an investigation, the Grand Jury be will be convened to hear the evidence against the cop, and most likely, if it's not ruled a justifiable homicide, that cop will be found guilty at trial and sentenced. Why lay waste to your city and run rampant in the streets until you know the outcome of a trial? Rob may think that the rest of the world looks at us a totalitarian police state where rogue cops rule, but I think they look at us as a bunch of crazed whacked out people who riot and loot and cause harm just for kicks and no one stops it.Hi Spartana. When did I say I wanted the rioting and the looting to continue without police effort to stop it? Please, and I mean no sarcasm here, where did I state this? Of course I don't want rioting and looting - I just want the heavy handedness and militarization of the police to stop. I don't want journalists getting arrested for doing their jobs and I don't want children and elderly exposed to teargas. Very different take from not wanting the police to check rioting and looting. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-19-14, 8:57pm

Rob you just have a different way of viewing things, a way that's foreign to most adults. I was astounded to hear you say that it was perfectly ok to take a businesses shopping carts home with you and leave it there for them to come and pickup after you parked it at your curb. Actually, I'm even astounded that you brought it up again. I think your outlook blinds you to the inappropriateness of that action.

I'm having the same problem trying to understand your thoughts on the Ferguson events. You get so wrapped up in indignation, seeing only what you want to see and coming to conclusions based on your biases rather than facts, it's hard to have an adult conversation about it. You're watching a group of people destroy a neighborhood, something that may take generations to overcome, and you want to punish the only people on the scene working to prevent that destruction. That just doesn't make any sense.It seems the way I view things is foreign to many on this board, that much I will give you. There is not one adult I have spoken with in the neighborhood that doesn't agree with me and what I have said here. Much of this board's views on this topic would be foreign to them. Does that mean either of us is wrong or right?

Interesting aside - the topic of Ferguson has helped me decide whether or not I'm going to my 30th high school reunion - I'm not. I was districted into a snotty upper end school back then - which now has done a 180 and is one of the lower performing schools in the state due to demographic changes - and I have been in touch with a few people from then that take the dominant view posted here. Which is fine, they have that right, but knowing that depresses me to no end. Better that I don't go as back then I was afraid to open my mouth - today I'm not. And here I am leaving this thread for at least 24 hours. May it prosper without me. Rob

Spartana

8-19-14, 9:00pm

Hi Spartana. When did I say I wanted the rioting and the looting to continue without police effort to stop it? Please, and I mean no sarcasm here, where did I state this? Of course I don't want rioting and looting - I just want the heavy handedness and militarization of the police to stop. I don't want journalists getting arrested for doing their jobs and I don't want children and elderly exposed to teargas. Very different take from not wanting the police to check rioting and looting. RobYou are right - you didn't say that (I apologize) but that was the take I got from some of your posts - not that you supported the rioting (don't think anyone does) but that you didn't want heavy handed police tactics to stop it. I felt that, in this case, those tactics were needed to protect people and property if rioters didn't leave on their own accord and were continuing their violence. I felt it was needed mainly to protect those innocent people, children and elderly you mentioned from the actions of the rioters.

gimmethesimplelife

8-19-14, 9:04pm

You are right - you didn't say that (I apologize) but that was the take I got from some of your posts - not that you supported the rioting (don't think anyone does) but that you didn't want heavy handed police tactics to stop it. I felt that, in this case, those tactics were needed to protect people and property if rioters didn't leave on their own accord - mainly to protect those innocent people, children and elderly who were in the melee of rioters.Thank you, Spartana. Apology graciously accepted. Of cource I'm OK with the police doing what they need to do re the looting and the rioting. Let me state that clearly right here and now. My issue is that beyond that, I have seen heavy handedness that I'm very much not OK with. Rioting and looting don't work for me so if anyone else thinks they do - please dispel yourselves of that notion if you would be so kind. And thanks again, Spartana, I do appreciate it. Rob

And now I'm going to leave for 24 hours. I just had to respond to your kind apology and reasonable post. Rob

Spartana

8-19-14, 9:06pm

It seems the way I view things is foreign to many on this board, that much I will give you. There is not one adult I have spoken with in the neighborhood that doesn't agree with me and what I have said here. Much of this board's views on this topic would be foreign to them. Does that mean either of us is wrong or right?

Interesting aside - the topic of Ferguson has helped me decide whether or not I'm going to my 30th high school reunion - I'm not. I was districted into a snotty upper end school back then - which now has done a 180 and is one of the lower performing schools in the state due to demographic changes - and I have been in touch with a few people from then that take the dominant view posted here. Which is fine, they have that right, but knowing that depresses me to no end. Better that I don't go as back then I was afraid to open my mouth - today I'm not. And here I am leaving this thread for at least 24 hours. May it prosper without me. RobBut Rob what is the dominant view here? And why is it so different from you're? I really don't think it is. It seems to me that most everyone is saying "lets wait for the evidence before passing judgment on any one - Brown or the cop." "Lets not riot and destroy property and people's livilyhoods with violence." Why is that the "wrong" view to have? That is due process each person should be afforded under the law.

gimmethesimplelife

8-19-14, 9:13pm

But Rob what is the dominant view here? It seems to me that most everyone is saying "lets wait for the evidence before passing judgment on any one - Brown or the cop." "Lets not riot and destroy property and people's livilyhood until we know the answers." Why is that the "wrong" view to have? That is due process each person should be afforded under the law.My take? Honestly? My take is that there has been obvious intimidation and heavy handedness by the police SINCE the shooting death that seriously needs to be addressed and my take is that many posters here are OK with this and are willing to sweep it under the rug. I'm not someone willing to sweep these issues under the rug. I'm not down with journalists getting arrested, I find that very much chilling, and I'm not down with the militarization of the police, my belief is that this inspires Molotovs from the troublemakers. Not that they should be throwing them in the first place mind you but the police response seems to be that who they are dealing with deserve militarization. I don't apologize for having major issues with this. Those people in Ferguson? Anyone one of us could just as easily be one of them instead of who were are. Rob

And I really just can't break from this thread.....sorry about that. Going now.

Spartana

8-19-14, 9:13pm

Thank you, Spartana. Apology graciously accepted. Of cource I'm OK with the police doing what they need to do re the looting and the rioting. Let me state that clearly right here and now. My issue is that beyond that, I have seen heavy handedness that I'm very much not OK with. Rioting and looting don't work for me so if anyone else thinks they do - please dispel yourselves of that notion if you would be so kind. And thanks again, Spartana, I do appreciate it. Rob

And now I'm going to leave for 24 hours. I just had to respond to your kind apology and reasonable post. RobThanks to your thanks :-)! I do get "het up" sometimes on this board and don't think my responses thru thoroughly - plus I can't write very well - so it often comes out a different way then I meant it too.

Have fun with your 24 hour break. You probably need it :-)!

Spartana

8-19-14, 9:19pm

And I really just can't break from this thread.....sorry about that. Going now.Robbbbbb........ we are calling your name....... Come backkkkkkk.........Resistance is futile Brahahahahahahahahaha

I guess that's were I respectfully disagree as I don't see myself or the other posters being OK with police intimidation or brutality and, if it exists, wanting to sweep it under the rug. I just see that they want to see justice served in a proper way - allowing due process and investigation of the individuals involved to be upheld before a "guilty" sign is hung on someone. But we all see and feel things differently so what one poster writes will have different meanings to each of us.

jp1

8-19-14, 9:52pm

The second thing is that I have a date Friday night due to my stance of Ferguson - can you believe it? For the first time in more years than I care to admit to in public I'm actually going on a date. Still stunned by that one. How it ties into Ferguson is after my banquet shift, a bunch of us were waiting for the light rail - and this guy I have worked with before went up to me and started talking about Ferguson and asked my take on it. Apparently I said what he wanted to hear as he asked me out but I was 100% honest. So we'll see how this goes. Very bizarre to me that the tragedy in Ferguson could lead to such a thing happening, I honestly thought that part of my life was over and had accepted it. Rob

Congrats on the date! I imagine you'll have plenty to talk to just rehashing this thread to him. Or maybe there will be a Ferguson protest and some riots in Phoenix Friday and whenever people ask you how the two of you met you'll share the romantic story of how on your first date you spent the whole night together... in jail. :-)

ApatheticNoMore

8-20-14, 1:03am

I guess that's were I respectfully disagree as I don't see myself or the other posters being OK with police intimidation or brutality and, if it exists, wanting to sweep it under the rug. I just see that they want to see justice served in a proper way - allowing due process and investigation of the individuals involved to be upheld before a "guilty" sign is hung on someone.

But how often are cops reprimanded by the law, serve time, etc. when they are the accused? Some of us think it's very naive to assume a trial with a cop involved is likely to come out unbiased rather than slanted in their favor. Of course a trial where the issue has made worldwide news is another matter, but at least in your run of the mill trial where the accused is a cop.

JaneV2.0

8-20-14, 10:15am

Tammy

8-20-14, 12:45pm

Great link!

Packy

8-20-14, 12:46pm

The general theme of the article, I might agree with. But, I think the author was "shooting from the hip" when they made up their list. I think there are people of each type-- empathetic, or psycho in every one of those occupations--but by no means every individual. I've known teachers that I thought were mean, and others that were Saints. Same with veterinarians, which wasn't on the list. If you combine the prospect of doing some fast driving, and the opportunity to carry a gun or other weapon, yes--I believe you're going to attract some overly-aggressive personalities into law enforcement. The rent-a-cops in security jobs, are the best example of that, here. It may even be a useful trait to have, at times. Some jobs require thick skin, because they continually deal with unpleasant situations & become jaded--but as long as the person can play by the rules--professionalism-- that's what matters. I think the real issue though, is how to screen out true deviants------people who make their own rules--- in the hiring phase, and have processes that see to it the rules and procedures are in place and adhered to--and including a universal "no rehire" policy for bad cops, doctors, teachers, etc. Because of self-auditing & self-serving systems, I think there is justifiable skepticism about police departments conducting internal investigations and having the last word in the matter, when citizens file complaints about police brutality, etc. This "young boy" in Ferguson was no Angel, that's for sure. Not exactly the poster child for bad cop behavior. But, that does not mean there isn't a problem.

peggy

8-20-14, 2:25pm

Well, two good things to come from this maybe. One, the city is looking into cops wearing those little cameras. I do believe all cops should wear them. I don't think they cost much and they are small enough to not get in the way of the cop. But, I hope those calling for this know that those cameras will ALSO show for certain the behavior of the other/person being stopped. No more calling police brutality when the camera shows different. Personally, I think cameras will force accountability from BOTH sides. Does anyone know if those also record sound? Having audio would also be very helpful I think.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/michael-brown-aftermath-ferguson-considers-cop-cameras-n184431

and
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/missouri-gop-leader-calls-ferguson-voter-registration-drive-disgusting

Although it would seem the republicans weren't counting on this. I think it's a great idea! What better time to remind people that they in fact can direct the course of their town. Voter turnout is pathetic everywhere but even more so in this town. So while these people are complaining and marching, some are saying here...this is how you change it. Looks like a positive redirect to me.

Spartana

8-20-14, 2:38pm

But how often are cops reprimanded by the law, serve time, etc. when they are the accused? Some of us think it's very naive to assume a trial with a cop involved is likely to come out unbiased rather than slanted in their favor. Of course a trial where the issue has made worldwide news is another matter, but at least in your run of the mill trial where the accused is a cop. I agree that it's naïve to assume cops who commit crimes or use excessive force will always be convicted or punished for their behavior. Same with criminals. Bad people often go free and good people are often unjustly condemned. However that isn't any reason to circumvent the justice system - flawed as it is - and pass rash and biased judgment. It's no more right to just assume that the white cop is guilty so hang 'em high, as it is to assume that the black teen is guilty so hang him high. Let our flawed judicial process work to the best of it's ability, and continue to assume people are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before passing judgment and handing out punishments.

As for the riots and the use of force issue for that...well everyone's take will be different. Rob and some others here view it as cops using excessive force. Others here (me) feel they are using the proper amount of force given the situation. And still others here may believe they aren't using enough force to stop the violence. So it's hard to have a discussion about it when we all have such different opinions.

Spartana

8-20-14, 2:44pm

Very, very, very rarely. I guess the powers that be fear that they won't attract enough head-busters if one of them actually gets called to account now and again. On Forbes' list of most psychopathic professions, police officer is number seven*, for whatever it's worth (and I don't know how you quantify such things).

*http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyclay/2013/01/05/the-top-10-jobs-that-attract-psychopaths/Ha Ha! I can see a CEO being number one on the list :-)! Of course "public servant" also includes all those jobs like social workers, grade school teachers, and...um...public mental health professionals :-)! Surprised that military didn't make the list - must be the sane bunch!

ApatheticNoMore

8-20-14, 2:57pm

Although it would seem the republicans weren't counting on this. I think it's a great idea! What better time to remind people that they in fact can direct the course of their town. Voter turnout is pathetic everywhere but even more so in this town. .

12% of what? If we actually aren't going to rush to judgement like some accuse (it's actually isn't one side that does this), we have to ask questions like that. I followed all the links and can't find where this 12% number is even coming from. 12% of the registered voters? 12% of those legally eligible to vote? (then it's a matter of registration) 12% of the community - yea but some are children, and many probably have criminal records that preclude voting (espeically as those charges target poor minority communities - it could be quite a lot), so that's not very meaningful. If 12% of the those legally eligible don't vote, one could wonder why they don't vote.

So while these people are complaining and marching, some are saying here...this is how you change it. Looks like a positive redirect to me.

Of course marching CAN be a way to change it as well. I don't know about their local community, voting might be a way to change it. In some places local politics can be responsive and in some places local politics seems to be so entirely dominated by certain interest groups (local developers and so on) that it's near impossible, although I'm not sure their main concern is in police behavior or that it would preclude police reforms.

Yossarian

8-20-14, 3:47pm

Of course a trial where the issue has made worldwide news is another matter

I think one of the unfortnate aspects of these media frenzy trials is they seem to pick bad ones for the cause. I really do believe there are some abusive situations and obviously not all black kids are drug using criminals that assault people. But I sure wish they would find better standard bearers.

bae

8-20-14, 6:19pm

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.”

According to the well-placed source, Wilson was coming off another case in the neighborhood on Aug. 9 when he ordered Michael Brown and his friend Dorain Johnson to stop walking in the middle of the road because they were obstructing traffic. However, the confrontation quickly escalated into physical violence, the source said..

“They ignored him and the officer started to get out of the car to tell them to move," the source said. "They shoved him right back in, that’s when Michael Brown leans in and starts beating Officer Wilson in the head and the face.

The source claims that there is "solid proof" that there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman’s firearm, resulting in the gun going off – although it still remains unclear at this stage who pulled the trigger. Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, "What, you're going to shoot me?"

At that point, the source told FoxNews.com, the 6 foot, 4 inch, 292-pound Brown charged Wilson, prompting the officer to fire at least six shots at him, including the fatal bullet that penetrated the top of Brown's skull, according to an independent autopsy conducted at the request of Brown's family.

Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket in the fracas, and was left dazed by the initial confrontation, the source said. He is now "traumatized, scared for his life and his family, injured and terrified" that a grand jury, which began hearing evidence on Wednesday, will "make some kind of example out of him," the source said.

The source also said the dashboard and body cameras, which might have recorded crucial evidence, had been ordered by Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson, but had only recently arrived and had not yet been deployed.

St. Louis County police, who have taken over the investigation, did not return requests for comment about possible injuries suffered by Wilson.

Edward Magee, spokesman for St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCullough, said the office will not disclose the nature of the evidence it will reveal to a grand jury.

"We'll present every piece of evidence we have, witness statements, et cetera, to the grand jury, and we do not release any evidence or talk about evidence on the case."

Nabil Khattar, CEO of 7Star Industries – which specializes in firearms training for law enforcement and special operations personnel – confirmed that police are typically instructed to use deadly force if in imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury.

“You may engage a threat with enough force that is reasonably necessary to defend against that danger,” he said.

Wilson is a six-year veteran of the Ferguson police force department, and has no prior disciplinary infringements.

Massive protests have since taken over the St. Louis community, prompting Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon last Thursday to place Highway Patrol Capt. Ron Johnson at the helm of security operations in an effort to calm ongoing tensions. The federal government is also investigating the death, and Attorney General Eric Holder has taken the lead – calling “the selective release of sensitive information” in the case “troubling.”

On Friday, Ferguson police released surveillance video showing Brown stealing cigars from a convenience store just before his death. Jackson came under intense criticism for disclosing the tape and a related police report as he also insisted that the alleged robbery and the encounter with Wilson were unrelated matters. Brown’s family, through their attorney, suggested the tape’s release was a strategic form of “character assassination.”

However, FoxNews.com’s source insisted that there was absolutely no spin agenda behind the tape’s release and that there were a number of Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) media requests filed by media outlets seeking it. Tom Jackson is said to have waited on publicly releasing it, and did not want it shown until Brown’s grieving mother first had the chance to see it.

“He defied the FOIAs as long as he could,” noted the insider. “A powerful, ugly spin has completely ruined public discourse on this whole situation.”

CathyA

8-20-14, 7:47pm

I'm sure alot of people won't believe this account of what happened. Surely the officer will get a change of venue for the trial. Or is it possible it wouldn't go to trial?

creaker

8-20-14, 10:09pm

I'm sure alot of people won't believe this account of what happened. Surely the officer will get a change of venue for the trial. Or is it possible it wouldn't go to trial?

The one that really confuses me here (maybe I just missed it) is I don't remember hearing squat about the police officer's physical injuries until today. If that information had gone out immediately I think it would have done a lot to diffuse the situation, making it much more obviously a matter of self defense.

Why would they hold onto that information so long? It's almost like they encouraged the protests and violence with a questionable story - and then days later it's like, oh, we had the proof it really was self defense. They knew day one.

gimmethesimplelife

8-20-14, 10:11pm

OK. I've taken my 24 hour hiatus from this thread and have done some thinking about all of this. I think I have a line of the difference between myself and many other posters here and it's really simple - part of this is that others have some faith remaining in the police and the courts and in the concept of justice. That's great, if you still have this wonderful. My faith in all the above has been severely shaken to put it mildly and hangs by a thin thread at the best of times. I think if this holds true for you - you are going to look at things differently than for those who still have faith in the police and the courts. I don't even think this makes me right or wrong, or other posters right or wrong - it's just how I am going to react based on my life experiences. YMMV.

I'm glad that Holder is in Ferguson and I am dismayed that the governor of Missouri (Jay Nixon) issued a recent statement as to a vigorous prosecution or similar words - it does seem that the cop is entitled to tell his side of the story and it also seems the more that is revealed about Michael Brown, the less sorry I feel for him. Many of my issues surround police behavior AFTER the shooting, from the moment the body was left out in the muggy Midwest sun for almost five hours forward. It is hard having seen police brutality at work in my Hispanic neighborhood to not auto-side against the police after the visuals of the militarization and the heavy handedness. BUT I will agree that the officer involved should have a right to tell his side of the story and present evidence to back his story up - this is due process and someone else mentioned that above. I do believe the officer is entitled to due process - I also believe that there have been major mis steps by the authorities in Ferguson that might mean huge legal settlements going forward, ruined reputations, and the perception that the power needs to change hands if anything is to really change.

One thing I think we might all agree upon is that this situation is not going to politely go away. I think that's been made crystal clear at this point. Given that I have so little faith in the system in general, I will keep current with this with interest and I'd love to be proved wrong and have justice served - though as someone else posted some time back, what is justice here even going to look like? I also agree with the point made earlier that this is a very complex situation - not good, explosive and complex at the same time, with high levels of distrust on all sides.

I hope some good comes of all this for society. This is my fondest wish here. Rob

PS I did hear that officer suffered a fractured eye socket - this would lend faith in his claim that there was some kind of altercation between him and Brown.

JaneV2.0

8-20-14, 10:52pm

There are witnesses who refute the police version of the story. It sounds like Wilson is readying his version of the Zimmerman defense.

ApatheticNoMore

8-20-14, 11:37pm

on Friday, Ferguson police released surveillance video showing Brown stealing cigars from a convenience store just before his death. Jackson came under intense criticism for disclosing the tape and a related police report as he also insisted that the alleged robbery and the encounter with Wilson were unrelated matters. Brown’s family, through their attorney, suggested the tape’s release was a strategic form of “character assassination.”

However, FoxNews.com’s source insisted that there was absolutely no spin agenda behind the tape’s release and that there were a number of Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) media requests filed by media outlets seeking it.

but the ACLU has been trying to get the incident report for the shooting and still hasn't gotten it. So they release what is favorable to them, which may be legal, but spin is an entirely accurate term.

The one that really confuses me here (maybe I just missed it) is I don't remember hearing squat about the police officer's physical injuries until today. If that information had gone out immediately I think it would have done a lot to diffuse the situation, making it much more obviously a matter of self defense.

Why would they hold onto that information so long? It's almost like they encouraged the protests and violence with a questionable story - and then days later it's like, oh, we had the proof it really was self defense. They knew day one.

as tin foil as that is - maybe. Wanted to try out their toys.

iris lilies

8-21-14, 3:38am

The one that really confuses me here (maybe I just missed it) is I don't remember hearing squat about the police officer's physical injuries until today. If that information had gone out immediately I think it would have done a lot to diffuse the situation, making it much more obviously a matter of self defense.

Why would they hold onto that information so long? It's almost like they encouraged the protests and violence with a questionable story - and then days later it's like, oh, we had the proof it really was self defense. They knew day one.

"They" are not releasing any official information about the investigation because the county prosecutor has said he's not releasing information that will go to a Grand Jury first.

I have not seen any official release of specific evidence about Officer Wilson's injuries and I don't think it exists. Soon after the shooting, the Ferguson Police Department Chief said publicly that the officer involved had bruises on his face when he gave a general update about the officer's condition, but that's it.

There is a lot of unofficial information out there and speculation. For instance, the report of the autopsy of Mike Brown given to the media and the public is not an official one because the report details an autopsy performed at a mortuary by a medical examiner-for-hire. He was paid by Mike Brown's family. Any diagrams of bullets and trajectories and etc that you've seen--that's not the state's report. The toxicology report on Mike Brown? From an unnamed, unofficial source. It's information, but not any released in an official capacity by those elected or appointed to serve the state's interest.

So for those of you who are now just learning about Officer Wilson's eye socket injury--that's speculation based on leaks to the media by unnamed sources.

It may true that Officer Wilson had severe head injuries including this specific eye socket fracture. I personally think it is true, based on the specificity of the injury that's been reported. But nothing has been confirmed.

iris lilies

8-21-14, 3:41am

There are witnesses who refute the police version of the story. It sounds like Wilson is readying his version of the Zimmerman defense.

The police officer hasn't put forth his version.

But Dorian Johnson, Mike Brown's sidekick, is a fab witness since he's got a prior case pending about lying to the cops. Oh, also an outstanding warrant.

iris lilies

8-21-14, 4:06am

I'm sure alot of people won't believe this account of what happened. Surely the officer will get a change of venue for the trial. Or is it possible it wouldn't go to trial?

This case went to the Grand Jury today. It may take weeks. The county prosecutor says more than two dozen witnesses will appear. He wants the process to be thorough, but has to weigh expediting it since this has so much public attention. I hope the hotheads don't prevail, everyone is so insistant on having information NOW! Now! Now!

jp1

8-21-14, 10:49am

12% of what? If we actually aren't going to rush to judgement like some accuse (it's actually isn't one side that does this), we have to ask questions like that. I followed all the links and can't find where this 12% number is even coming from. 12% of the registered voters? 12% of those legally eligible to vote? (then it's a matter of registration) 12% of the community - yea but some are children, and many probably have criminal records that preclude voting (espeically as those charges target poor minority communities - it could be quite a lot), so that's not very meaningful. If 12% of the those legally eligible don't vote, one could wonder why they don't vote.

.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/18/3472278/this-is-the-most-important-reform-ferguson-can-enact-to-prevent-another-standoff/

This article does a pretty good job of explaining the problem. Basically they hold municipal elections off cycle. The white minority population vote at higher (but still low) levels in these elections. If municipal elections were held at the same time as presidential elections the makeup of city government would probably be somewhat different.

peggy

8-21-14, 10:59am

Actually, I do remember hearing that the officer was injured very soon after this happened. I believe it was simply stated that he was being treated for 'injuries'. It was brief and buried in everything else, not emphasized, so maybe that's why most missed it. I remember they didn't go into details, just saying he was injured.

Obviously we will never know the complete truth to this as every story has three sides to it...yours, mine and the truth. My only question in this is, why did it escalate to a gun? I mean, whatever anyone thinks about the police, they really don't just go around shooting jaywalkers. Something happened to bring it to this point, and probably not just a mouthy kid either. Cops get that all the time and again, they don't just randomly shoot people. Several witnesses describe some sort of struggle at the car.

Spartana

8-21-14, 5:20pm

I also heard that the officer was injured (and specifically facial injuries) right after it happened and was transported to the hospital. But I haven't heard any "official" report as to the extent of the injuries. Same as I haven't heard any official reports about anything but then that isn't unusual at all as processing a crime scene and evidence, and doing toxicology and autopsy take a lot of time - as does the actual footwork of an investigation such as gathering info and questioning (and re-questioning) all the witnesses and people involved. Not like on TV at all.

Spartana

8-21-14, 5:25pm

This case went to the Grand Jury today. It may take weeks. The county prosecutor says more than two dozen witnesses will appear. He wants the process to be thorough, but has to weigh expediting it since this has so much public attention. I hope the hotheads don't prevail, everyone is so insistant on having information NOW! Now! Now!

That was pretty fast! Wonder if the outside pressure from media, etc.. has caused them to expedite this case and convene the GJ before they have enough evidence. But then maybe there is enough already that the prosecutor feels they have a good shot at having it go to trial.

ETA: I was wondering why they are going with a GJ rather then a public preliminary hearing first /or instead). Maybe Mo. doesn't do Prem. hearings or maybe the prosecution wants to keep all info private since GJ proceedings aren't open to the public. Probably this.

iris lilies

8-21-14, 5:37pm

That was pretty fast! Wonder if the outside pressure from media, etc.. has caused them to expedite this case and convene the GJ before they have enough evidence. But then maybe there is enough already that the prosecutor feels they have a good shot at having it go to trial.

They don't have all of the evidence in yet, they are just beginning the Grand Jury process. If I understand service correctly, this Grand Jury meets one day a week.

Tangential to this although something that many people are misinterpreting, the Feds will not conduct a simultaneous investigation for the same purpose. The Feds are interested if Mike Brown's civil rights were compromised. They do not conduct a homicide investigation, they are not authorized to do so.

Also tangential, Missouri's governor has decided not to remove the St. Louis County Prosecutor from this case. His main reason was that he feared that his legal ability to do so is murky, and he didn't want to cloud this case with that unclear jurisdictional problems. I personally think that's fine because Bob McCullough is a pro and his office has tried thousands of cases. He's not in bumf8ck, MO. The fact that he bickers with the recently deposed County Executive is just politics of the County.

CathyA

8-21-14, 6:08pm

Is that prosecutor the person whose father was killed by a black man?

iris lilies

8-21-14, 6:55pm

Is that prosecutor the person whose father was killed by a black man? yep, his police officer father, killed on duty.

CathyA

8-21-14, 7:23pm

Hmmm.....will jurors be arbitrarily selected from that area? Won't it be a waste of time if they all might be dead-set for bringing charges against the officer? I wonder if they ever change the venue for a grand jury?

JaneV2.0

8-21-14, 7:49pm

I wouldn't worry about Officer Wilson. He's enjoying a paid vacation, his fans are busy building him a nice nest egg, and police are almost never convicted for using excessive force in this country.

Packy

8-22-14, 9:49pm

bae

8-22-14, 9:58pm

No rioting over this one from a few days ago:

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_26336743/san-jose-police-cop-shoots-woman-who-was

ApatheticNoMore

8-22-14, 10:05pm

I just saw a cell phone video taken by an eyewitness to the "other" police shooting of a "knife wielding" individual in St Louis, since the Ferguson incident. It impressed me to the point that I'd say the activists really should regroup and rally around this latest one. It(the video) gives you a clearer picture of just what happened, and a definite clue WHY the citizens are protesting, back in Ferguson. It appears that the real issue has been ongoing----it seems like the Police are behaving more like soldiers in a war zone, than public employees that are supposed to "protect and serve".

Yea I think there's been information for awhile that it's ongoing. The homeless guy in Albequerque etc.

And in addition to that additional incident in St Louis while the Furgeuson protests were going on there was also this:
http://ktla.com/2014/08/17/activists-to-protest-fatal-police-shooting-of-unarmed-and-mentally-ill-man-ezell-ford/

Packy

8-22-14, 10:12pm

Well, the obvious solution for the Ca. department, after they settle the huge lawsuit filed by the womans' family, is to give all department personnel a vision exam, using picture charts of cordless drills and various handguns, to make certain they can distinguish between the two--from as far away as 15 feet.:(

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 11:15am

I wouldn't worry about Officer Wilson. He's enjoying a paid vacation, his fans are busy building him a nice nest egg, and police are almost never convicted for using excessive force in this country.Your last point is another reason I don't trust the police and I seriously question whether or not this citizenship is viable for the long term. I do believe that due to Ferguson and what is perhaps (?) going to be unearthed now - such I as read online late last night that the police report filled out about the shooting was illegal in the sense that it was hardly filled out according to the ACLU - perhaps more people will wake up to this. One can hope, anyway. Rob

iris lily

8-23-14, 11:52am

Your last point is another reason I don't trust the police and I seriously question whether or not this citizenship is viable for the long term. I do believe that due to Ferguson and what is perhaps (?) going to be unearthed now - such I as read online late last night that the police report filled out about the shooting was illegal in the sense that it was hardly filled out according to the ACLU - perhaps more people will wake up to this. One can hope, anyway. Rob

"Citizenship viable for the long term" -- whatever does that mean?

Keep in mind that Ferguson isn't conducting the homicide investigation. I'm not sure what the Ferguson Police dept would normally document when they've turned over the investigation, including the crime scene, to another organization. They have little to report. Something happened on Canfied Dr on August 9th, that's the extent of their report.

St. Louis County police took over the crime scene. Remember the scene that was secured while investigation took place? The scene that you complained bout? That was measured, photographed, completely examined for bullet casing and many other factors, and it was all documented. The documented facts exists in the St. Louis County prosecutor's office.

But the ACLU knows this, they are just blowing smoke to get people like you riled up.

JaneV2.0

8-23-14, 12:06pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:09pm

There is supposed to be a police report filed. In this case, it was late and scanty (the cynic might say they were trying to come up with a good story). According to Time: [URL="http://time.com/3159680/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-police-report/"]http://time.com/3159680/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-police-repor]"The incident report, filed by the St. Louis County police department, contains no new information on the encounter between Brown and Wilson. There are no written details about the event. As a result, the officer’s account of what transpired when the two men met just after noon on Aug. 9 remains a mystery."[/I][/I]Late and scanty does not look good. It really doesn't. It leaves the door open to all sorts of questions and insinuations and in a court of law, for me anyway, it would create reasonable doubt. I'm not saying Michael Brown was any kind of saint - clearly he was not - but on the other side of the equation, why was this report left so scant? What's up with that, Ferguson Police? Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:15pm

"Citizenship viable for the long term" -- whatever does that mean?

Keep in mind that Ferguson isn't conducting the homicide investigation. I'm not sure what the Ferguson Police dept would normally document when they've turned over the investigation, including the crime scene, to another organization. They have little to report. Something happened on Canfied Dr on August 9th, that's the extent of their report.

St. Louis County police took over the crime scene. Remember the scene that was secured while investigation took place? The scene that you complained bout? That was measured, photographed, completely examined for bullet casing and many other factors, and it was all documented. The documented facts exists in the St. Louis County prosecutor's office.

But the ACLU knows this, they are just blowing smoke to get people like you riled up.IL, what I meant was, if the police are going to be treating everyday people as automatic enemies - witness the police militarization in Ferguson and around the US - is it worthwhile to stay here in the US given how short life is - would not most people be better off elsewhere? America is coming to the point where this unpleasant question needs to be addressed IMHO.

Getting back to Ferguson, though - it's not hard to get riled up given the visuals of police militarization and excessive force used in arrests - such as with the two journalists who were the first journalists to be arrested - and with the teargas episodes. Perhaps we don't know all the facts yet - I will grant that - but the visuals of excessive force and militarization will never go away for me as long as I live. That's permanent. And these images that have went viral across the world of the police militarization and excessive force - that international reputation damage is not going away any time soon, either. Rob

Alan

8-23-14, 12:18pm

There is supposed to be a police report filed. In this case, it was late and scanty (the cynic might say they were trying to come up with a good story). According to Time: http://time.com/3159680/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-police-report/

"The incident report, filed by the St. Louis County police department, contains no new information on the encounter between Brown and Wilson. There are no written details about the event. As a result, the officer’s account of what transpired when the two men met just after noon on Aug. 9 remains a mystery."
Did you miss the other part?
And it will be for some time, according to Brian Schellman, a spokesman for the St. Louis County police department. Schellman told TIME that the department does not intend to release the “investigative” component of the incident report, the part that details Wilson’s version of events. Schellman said that under the Missouri State “Sunshine” Law, the department was not required to release the information during a pending investigation. As a result, Wilson’s account of what happens will remain confidential unless it is presented by a prosecutor, Schellman said.
“We will not release it,” said Schellman, who noted that this is the county’s normal procedure. “This isn’t any different than a typical larceny from a local convenience store.”

Yossarian

8-23-14, 12:18pm

"Citizenship viable for the long term" -- whatever does that mean?

...to get people like you riled up.

Some people are just prone to overreaction

http://i.minus.com/ibhwkvCPXL1S8L.gif

iris lilies

8-23-14, 12:21pm

Late and scanty does not look good. It really doesn't. It leaves the door open to all sorts of questions and insinuations and in a court of law, for me anyway, it would create reasonable doubt. I'm not saying Michael Brown was any kind of saint - clearly he was not - but on the other side of the equation, why was this report left so scant? What's up with that, Ferguson Police? Rob

Rob, did you even read the information Jane provided?

To recap:

Ferguson Police didn't write a report, they turned this investigate over to the St. Louis COunty police (the big polic organization in their area)

St. Louis COunty police have a "report" that pretty much notes time and day see link above)

That same link reviews for us that:

...under the Missouri State “Sunshine” Law, the department was not required to release the information during a pending investigation. As a result, Wilson’s account of what happens will remain confidential unless it is presented by a prosecutor, Schellman said. “We will not release it,” said Schellman, who noted that this is the county’s normal procedure. “This isn’t any different than a typical larceny from a local convenience store.”

You may remember that several posts up I related that the St. Louis County Prosecutor will not release information until it (at least) has gone to the Grand Jury.

You. Will. Not. Get. "official" information on demand. Neither will HuffPo. Neither will CNN. And neither will our pundit from the Gateway. :)

You WILL get, immediately, spin and faux facts and speculation from both sides, and that includes an autopsy report from the celebrity-coroner who likes getting his name in the news.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:22pm

Some people are just prone to overreaction

http://i.minus.com/ibhwkvCPXL1S8L.gifI have seen police brutality here in Phoenix before - it is impossible for me to ever trust any police in the United States again. That has been permanently destroyed for me. For the police to attack and brutally assault innocent Hispanic neighbors and accuse them of dealing in drugs when they were not - that stays with you once you witness it. That is a justifiable reason for "overreaction" as you put it. Never again can I trust American police or courts. Rob

PS To be fair though, I lost my trust of the courts before this, when OJ walked free. Witnessing the above only reinforced my distrust of the American police/courts/"justice" system.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:27pm

Rob, did you even read the information Jane provided?

To recap:

Ferguson Police didn't write a report, they turned this investigate over to the St. Louis COunty police (the big polic organization in their area)

St. Louis COunty police have a "report" that pretty much notes time and day see link above)

That same link reviews for us that:

...under the Missouri State “Sunshine” Law, the department was not required to release the information during a pending investigation. As a result, Wilson’s account of what happens will remain confidential unless it is presented by a prosecutor, Schellman said. “We will not release it,” said Schellman, who noted that this is the county’s normal procedure. “This isn’t any different than a typical larceny from a local convenience store.”

You may remember that several posts up I related that the St. Louis County Prosecutor will not release information until it (at least) has gone to the Grand Jury.

You. Will. Not. Get. "official" information on demand. Neither will HuffPo. Neither will CNN. And neither will our pundit from the Gateway. :)

You WILL get, immediately, spin and faux facts and speculation from both sides, and that includes an autopsy report from the celebrity-coroner who likes getting his name in the news.OK then - it looks like there is a legal loophole here, great for the Ferguson police. The problem here? As I posted some pages ago - how is this not releasing this information going to be perceived, law or not? Think about that and think about how much anger and resentment is festering and simmering out there - perceptions I'm afraid could end out mattering much more than the law. And perhaps that is a good thing as it could lead to social change and changes in the status quo. This whole situation could get very interesting and I'd hazard to guess if there is no indictment, things will get very interesting indeed.....and due to perceptions going viral, if there is no indictment, how is this going to look to the rest of the world? There is more at play here than just the "law" is my point. Rob

PS Has anyone besides me even thought yet of how much tourism revenue is going to be lost due to the images of Ferguson having been spread around the world? How many less hotel rooms will be sold and how many less tacky plastic souvenirs will be sold now? Has anyone thought of the economic consequences beyond real estate values in Ferguson? Rob

iris lilies

8-23-14, 12:28pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:31pm

[QUOTE=gimmethesimplelife;182882]IL, what I meant was, if the police are going to be treating everyday people as automatic enemies - witness the police militarization in Ferguson and around the US - is it worthwhile to stay here in the US given how short life is - would not most people be better off elsewhere?/QUOTE]

You are better off elsewhere. When will you be leaving?Probably once my mom passes to be honest. And I'm not the only one who would be better off elsewhere, I think most people would be, if only for the reason of what the American workplace has become. But that's another thread. I take it then that you are comfortable with the militarization of the police and do not find this a reason to leave America? I'd like to live somewhere where seeing a police car driving up the street close to me would not case intense fear. I can no longer have this in America for the reason I stated in my reply to Yossarian.....police equal the potential for civil rights violations to me now based on what I have seen here in Phoenix. Rob

iris lilies

8-23-14, 12:33pm

Why not take your mother with you? Why isn't she endangered here, too?

Alan

8-23-14, 12:34pm

PS Has anyone besides me even thought yet of how much tourism revenue is going to be lost due to the images of Ferguson having been spread around the world? How many less hotel rooms will be sold and how many less tacky plastic souvenirs will be sold now? Has anyone thought of the economic consequences beyond real estate values in Ferguson? Rob
Yes, rioting and looting has a negative impact on the local economy.

Yossarian

8-23-14, 12:34pm

Never again can I trust American police or courts. Rob

Buena suerte con la policia mexicana amigo.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:39pm

Yes, rioting and looting has a negative impact on the local economy.And the militarization and excessive force used by the police will have an impact on tourism revenue from abroad, like it or not. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:41pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:43pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:45pm

Buena suerte con la policia mexicana amigo.I'm not moving to Mexico but thanks for the kind thought anyway. Rob

Yossarian

8-23-14, 12:47pm

how is this going to look to the rest of the world?

Who the **** cares? We don't sacrifice public servants or principles of justice to appease misinformed people. He should get what he derserves based on what happened, not what someone in Moscow thinks.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:48pm

Why not take your mother with you? Why isn't she endangered here, too?There is a case of a SWAT team invading a Chicago hospital and shooting to death a 95 year old white man for his refusal to have a surgery he was afraid would be the end of him. Yes, the elderly are at some risk here unfortunately.....I'm not unaware of this. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 12:50pm

Who the **** cares? We don't sacrifice public servants or principles of justice to appease misinformed people. He should get what he derserves based on what happened, not what someone in Moscow thinks.There will be economic consequences and diplomatic consequences and yet less trust of America and Americans in the world beyond our shores. And probably more sympathy from those living in better countries. It's not so simple as is the officer guilty of an offense and if so, what offense? Thanks to the Internet and social media, this one is not going away any time soon and regardless of the outcome, damage has been done. Look at it this way - many people do not go to Mexico due to the reputation for cartel violence and gore, right? More people will start seeing America as a place lacking basic human rights - matter of fact, we already have a bit of an international rep as being a place in which saying the wrong thing to the government will get you in trouble, justified or not. Rob

rodeosweetheart

8-23-14, 1:04pm

iris lilies

8-23-14, 1:04pm

That kitten video is the cutest thing I've seen lately. Oh my, he is at the absolute peak of kittendom.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 1:06pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 1:07pm

That kitten video is the cutest thing I've seen lately. Oh my, he is at the absolute peak of kittendom.It was cute, I agree. I forgot that you like cats, too. We share this in common, I am very much a cat person. Rob

bae

8-23-14, 1:08pm

It is absolutely amazing that I have posted my reason - what I have witnessed and why I distrust the police - and it seems that a few posters here are OK with this in the sense that it remains uncommented on.

I'll comment.

I think you are being unreasonable. I work with police officers every single day (I'm about to head out to teach a 2-hour safety class to children, with some police officers working on their own personal time). They vary from great guys and gals, to people I don't particularly like. They are humans, and span a wide range of skill and personality. I've seen some do heroic or sensitive things, I've seen others be out of line.

I don't tar all police with the same brush, just as I don't prejudge entire races based on my encounters with particularly unpleasant outliers, or entire religions based on a few blown up buildings.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 1:09pm

There is a case of a SWAT team invading a Chicago hospital and shooting to death a 95 year old white man for his refusal to have a surgery he was afraid would be the end of him. Yes, the elderly are at some risk here unfortunately.....I'm not unaware of this. Rob

What is your source for this, Rob?Google 95 Year Old Man Shot By SWAT Team and several stories from different sources pop up. It's a real eye opener about being elderly in the United States for sure. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 1:12pm

I'll comment.

I think you are being unreasonable. I work with police officers every single day (I'm about to head out to teach a 2-hour safety class to children, with some police officers working on their own personal time). They vary from great guys and gals, to people I don't particularly like. They are humans, and span a wide range of skill and personality. I've seen some do heroic or sensitive things, I've seen others be out of line.

I don't tar all police with the same brush, just as I don't prejudge entire races based on my encounters with particularly unpleasant outliers, or entire religions based on a few blown up buildings.And I'm willing to give you that not all police officers are bad and not all would behave the way I witnessed. Granted. The problem is that there are those that do, and much like Mexican drug cartels engaging in violence and murder, American cops that behave this way tend to get away with it. Based on that alone - complete and total distrust until some mechanism (constant fear of pension loss?) is put into place to regulate their behavior. The police get no free pass with me, period. Rob

iris lilies

8-23-14, 1:13pm

Here's something further interesting. A Ferguson police office has been suspended indefinitely for pointing a semi-automatic assault rifle at a peaceful protestor and yelling obscenities. At least the police did something here about it, I'll grant that much, and hopefully he will lose his pension. I'm hoping anyway. One way I can think of to regulate police behavior? Constant and continual fear of pension loss - that would strike terror into their hearts where nothing else will. And the story I reference above is entitled Ferguson Protest March Marks Two Weeks Since Police Shooting on yahoo.com/news. Rob

Only one police officer? you haven't been keeping up on HuffPo.

The guy referenced above isn't Ferguson police, although I realize that's a minor detail. He's an officer with another small municipality. In the riots and looting that took place in Ferguson, hundreds of officers worked that arena having had to be brought in from other jurisdictions.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 1:15pm

Only one police officer? you haven't been keeping up on HuffPo.

The guy referenced above isn't Ferguson police, although I realize that's a minor detail. He's an officer with another small municipality. In the riots and looting that took place in Ferguson, hundreds of officers worked that arena having had to be brought in from other jurisdictions.I haven't been to HuffPo since Thursday, IL, it's not my only source for news. Rob

And I came back to add that you are right and I am wrong - the officer I mentioned above is from some place called St Ann and is not with the Ferguson Police. My bad, sorry. And it was stated right there in the article, too. Sorry. Rob

iris lilies

8-23-14, 1:21pm

It was cute, I agree. I forgot that you like cats, too. We share this in common, I am very much a cat person. Rob

This is Yo's secret reason for posting a cute cat video: to bring us all together. Can't we all just get along? :)

Yossarian

8-23-14, 1:27pm

And the militarization and excessive force used by the police will have an impact on tourism revenue from abroad, like it or not. Rob

At whose expense? The problem is the behavior to which the police are responding. When I go to Brazil, I don't worry about the police even though they have been very aggressive against criminals. I worry about the criminals. No way I'm stepping foot in a favela. I'll keep my valuables locked up and stay in Itaim Bibi and be grateful the cops are cracking down on the bad guys.

It's totally counterproductive behavior. Some people say Watts and Detroit are the way they are today because of the riots long ago but half the people on my plane from Miami last night was going back to France. They riot in the suburbs of Paris but I still go to Nice. Who's really going to suffer because of the riots Rob?

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 1:36pm

At whose expense? The problem is the behavior to which the police are responding. When I go to Brazil, I don't worry about the police even thought they have been very aggressive against criminals. I worry about the criminals. No way I'm stepping foot in a favela. I'll keep my valuables locked up and stay in Itaim Bibi and be grateful the cops are cracking down on the bad guys.

It's totally counterproductive behavior. Some people say Watts and Detroit are the way they are today because of the riots long ago but half the people on my plane from Miami last night we going back to France. They riot in the suburbs of Paris but I still go to Nice. Who's really going to suffer because of the riots Rob?WE should probably agree to disagree. I see the police as part of the problem and definitely a reason in this situation for the escalation of behavior. I'm thinking that cameras on cops and on their dash at all times with instant termination coupled with pension loss for disabling them during any kind of issue - coupled with knowledge of instant pension loss for excessive behavior, such as the officer above pointing a semi automatic assault rifle at a peaceful protestor and yelling obscenities - would be good ways to reign them in and flatten them down a bit. Rob

shadowmoss

8-23-14, 1:39pm

Google 95 Year Old Man Shot By SWAT Team and several stories from different sources pop up. It's a real eye opener about being elderly in the United States for sure. Rob

Two different incidents. The 95 yo man in Chacago was shot by Forest Service police for refusing to be taken to the hospital. No previous issues with him in the assisted living center where he lived. He threatened them with a 2' shoehorn. Then he picked up a knife. While sitting. They tazed him, then shot him with a beanbag charge. He died.

The SWAT team killed a 107 yo man in Arkansas when he started shooting at them. They tried tear gas, but he still was able to shoot at them. They make 'em tough in Arkansas.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 1:48pm

Two different incidents. The 95 yo man in Chacago was shot by Forest Service police for refusing to be taken to the hospital. No previous issues with him in the assisted living center where he lived. He threatened them with a 2' shoehorn. Then he picked up a knife. While sitting. They tazed him, then shot him with a beanbag charge. He died.

The SWAT team killed a 107 yo man in Arkansas when he started shooting at them. They tried tear gas, but he still was able to shoot at them. They make 'em tough in Arkansas.My point is - Police? For a 95 year old man refusing surgery? There is no excuse for this. How is this different from the third world? That man had every right to turn down surgery and the facility he was in should be sued for millions and millions for getting law enforcement into it - ditto the police department involved. Yet another situation in which there has never been enough money printed for an equitable settlement. Is this what America has become and are we supposed to be OK with this? Rob

I had read on www.theeconomiccollapseblog.com that a SWAT team was involved but that website is a bit alarmist so I don't take their stories 100%.

iris lilies

8-23-14, 1:50pm

...The SWAT team killed a 107 yo man in Arkansas when he started shooting at them. They tried tear gas, but he still was able to shoot at them. They make 'em tough in Arkansas.
That is badass. What a way to go! He'll be a legend forever.

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 1:52pm

That is badass. What a way to go! He'll be a legend forever.Agreed. Rob I've got to go back and read why he was shooting at them, though.....

iris lilies

8-23-14, 2:14pm

Agreed. Rob I've got to go back and read why he was shooting at them, though.....

Well perhaps I've crafted a new standard in my view of interacting with the po'-lice: be respectful and cooperative up until the age of 107. Then, at that advanced age, if the po'-lice knock you about, give them all you got from your Uzi and you are justified, iris will publicly acknowledge your badassity.

jp1

8-23-14, 3:01pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 3:19pm

I remember reading about the 95 year old being killed by the police when it happened. Truly horrifying.

It was the Park Forest IL police, not forest service police. All I can say is that they must be some seriously lame cops if it takes 5-7 cops with riot shields and bean bag guns to deal with a 95 year old man.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-08-02/news/ct-met-kass-0802-20130803_1_butcher-type-kitchen-knife-park-forest-police-taserYes. Very scary stuff. Now just imagine this story being read by people who have no faith in the police or the courts to begin with and you can see where this becomes problematic. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 3:24pm

Well perhaps I've crafted a new standard in my view of interacting with the po'-lice: be respectful and cooperative up until the age of 107. Then, at that advanced age, if the po'-lice knock you about, give them all you got from your Uzi and you are justified, iris will publicly acknowledge your badassity.That word should be in the dictionary. LOL. Badassity. I like it! Rob

iris lilies

8-23-14, 3:31pm

That word should be in the dictionary. LOL. Badassity. I like it! Rob

well, it's a word commonly used on another website I frequent. :~)

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 3:34pm

Hmmm.....The plot thickens. Now there is a St Louis County police officer who has been suspended for saying that he's into diversity, he kills everybody. His name is Dan Page and to me he serves as an excellent argument of why the police should live in constant fear of having their pensions taken away for misbehavior. This is what our taxes pay for ? And this (fill in the blank) gets a PENSION after behaving in such a way? And I'm wrong for calling this for what it is and wanting out of America? I don't get it.....I just don't get it. Rob

The story is featured on yahoo.com news if anyone is interested in reading further or just google Dan Page and I'm sure the story will pop right on up.

iris lilies

8-23-14, 3:48pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 4:06pm

Told ya upthread that you were missing opportunities to become upset. Glad you found that one.OK IL, this just begs the question.....you don't find this upsetting? At all? Living in St Louis County (?) as you do and paying taxes there you don't find this the slightest bit upsetting? These words were of this man's own admission - no grand jury needed here. Rob

Yossarian

8-23-14, 5:32pm

And I'm wrong for calling this for what it is and wanting out of America?

He's apparently an across the board kook, was not speaking in an official capacity, has not actually been involved in a police shooting, and is going to get fired as soon as they can.

Do I need to post the kitten again?

gimmethesimplelife

8-23-14, 5:43pm

He's apparently an across the board kook, was not speaking in an official capacity, has not actually been involved in a police shooting, and is going to get fired as soon as they can.

Do I need to post the kitten again?It's not that simple. You don't just suspend and fire and presto magic it goes away. The problem is - how did this man hide in plain sight in the St. Louis County police for 35 years and what does this say about the police force overall there? To you the question may be a done deal already, to me it is not going away even if this man is fired. Rob

I do agree with you that he is a kook though and I did read that he would have been fired right away if a review were not necessary first.

Packy

8-23-14, 6:45pm

I, will be boycotting Ferguson. It will not be on my tourist itinerary, next time I decide to raise a little hell. Reason: The Po-lice there are just a bunch of party-poopers.:laff:Just trying to be funny.

ApatheticNoMore

8-24-14, 2:10am

Why not take your mother with you? Why isn't she endangered here, too?

My Mom is getting older and a her health is slowly starting to decline - I don't know if she's up to starting anew somewhere else at this point. I want to make sure whatever time she is here she is safe and comfortable. That's the real reason I am stlll here

most people's reasons for living here (the u.s.) are probably of the same type (elderly parents, kids - especially in cases of divorce when they can't just be packed up, needs of spouses, career, other family they are close to, any other strong ties, etc.). So all the messed up americans who are crazy enough to stay here, probably have reasons much like your own.

bae

8-24-14, 3:53am

So all the messed up americans who are crazy enough to stay here,

With all due respect....

Piss off.

Gregg

8-24-14, 10:22am

Take a deep breath guys.

JaneV2.0

8-24-14, 10:42am

creaker

8-24-14, 10:49am

It's not that easy to emigrate. There are all kinds of hoops to jump through--age, health, language, education, occupation, arrest record...Any one of those can be a deal breaker unless you have enough money to buy your way in.

My daughter married an Australian national (they are currently in France) a little over a year ago. They are married and just had a child (my first grandson :-). There is a maze they have will navigate for my son-in-law to come here to live - and if they don't do it right he can be refused.

ApatheticNoMore

8-24-14, 11:09am

With all due respect....

Piss off.

Wow. Just Wow. "All the messed up Americans who are crazy enough to stay here" was paraphrasing an argument Rob makes (often). And I was just saying that they may have personal reasons for doing so like him. If I expected an argument with anyone it would be WITH ROB, because I WAS AFTERALL gently (I hope) criticizing his repeated argument on everyone not leaving as they should (everyone on this board has heard the argument). And it's often not a philosophical political commitment at all, living somewhere is occupying (no not Occupying , my gawd if people want to read that in too then this board grows dumber by the second, just fricken living one exists and it's usually in some country is what I'm saying) space. Not many people look at their lives and say "where should I live, lets see which country most aligns with my philosophical beliefs now ... I think I'll move to Norway ..." Is some people do, good for them I guess!

I can't believe this thread either. So people talk to police and they conclude not all police are bad. Fair enough. Do they also talk to communities that feel they are being abused by police? I suspect they might see things differently if they did and really took it in. Because the issue is not how police treat rich white or even middle class white people afterall (not to deny that they may have some cases of legitimate police brutality sometimes as well).

gimmethesimplelife

8-24-14, 11:50am

Wow. Just Wow. "All the messed up Americans who are crazy enough to stay here" was paraphrasing an argument Rob makes (often). And I was just saying that they may have personal reasons for doing so like him. If I expected an argument with anyone it would be WITH ROB, because I WAS AFTERALL gently (I hope) criticizing his repeated argument on everyone not leaving as they should (everyone on this board has heard the argument). And it's often not a philosophical political commitment at all, living somewhere is occupying (no not Occupying , my gawd if people want to read that in too then this board grows dumber by the second, just fricken living one exists and it's usually in some country is what I'm saying) space. Not many people look at their lives and say "where should I live, lets see which country most aligns with my philosophical beliefs now ... I think I'll move to Norway ..." Is some people do, good for them I guess!

I can't believe this thread either. So people talk to police and they conclude not all police are bad. Fair enough. Do they also talk to communities that feel they are being abused by police? I suspect they might see things differently if they did and really took it in. Because the issue is not how police treat rich white or even middle class white people afterall (not to deny that they may have some cases of legitimate police brutality sometimes as well).APN, I am not offended by your post and to me, your post was completely in line. And I agree with your sentiments towards this thread - I have a hard time believing it myself. I am amazed that so many posters here seem to have basic faith in the police and the courts - that was permanently taken from me years ago. I don't see how I could ever get this back. Period.

But I also know something else. I could take a bus going north a few miles to Camelback Road and be surrounded by a much higher social class and very different thinking, and in that neighborhood, yeah, people are going to tend to have faith in the police and the courts. Sometimes I take the bus up to Camelback Road to do mystery shops up at an upscale mall there and I wonder why I don't need a passport to come visit - the changes are that noticeable to me that it seems like a different country. The language is the same but then again it really isn't. It chills me sometimes to be up there as I feel if that kind of thinking continues ( in this case having basic faith in the police and the courts) how is any change realistically going to happen? When I speak of having lost faith in America, some of what I mean is this - this not questioning or being willing to even acknowledge that such rot exists. When I get on the bus to go home, I usually feel relieved as I could never live in the midst of such thinking - I just don't fit in there at all. At least where I live I don't feel this to that level, and here, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with any basic faith in police or the courts. People are just struggling to get through life and keep current with their bills where I live and hoping to avoid trouble. A very different America than from the one a few miles north for sure. Rob

Alan

8-24-14, 12:23pm

... A very different America than from the one a few miles north for sure. RobWhich one is the outlier?

gimmethesimplelife

8-24-14, 12:40pm

Which one is the outlier?Good question. To me, living in a low wage state, the outlier is the neighborhood three miles north of me. It is not very representative of what most Arizonans know as reality and what they live through. Also if you believe government statistics, that Arizona is shrinking - by the government's own admission - and my Arizona is growing. Rob

Alan

8-24-14, 12:48pm

Good question. To me, living in a low wage state, the outlier is the neighborhood three miles north of me. It is not very representative of what most Arizonans know as reality and what they live through. Rob
So, what makes you think wages have more to do with it than culture? Or, do you believe that one influences the other?

Also, if economics represent outlook, would higher salaries change opinion? And if so, which opinion could be considered correct?

gimmethesimplelife

8-24-14, 12:55pm

So, what makes you think wages have more to do with it than culture? Or, do you believe that one influences the other?What you have coming in - unless you have significant assets - pretty much dictates where you can afford to live. But I do believe culture has something to do with it, too.....If I won the lottery tomorrow, I wouldn't move to that neighborhood north of me even if I could afford to - I'd never fit in there as what I have learned in life does mesh well with that kind of thinking up there. I'd miss being around people who were real and know what struggle is about, and I'd miss organizing neighborhood trips to Mexico so that people could get dental care or health care Medicaid won't cover. There is so much I'd miss being up in that "nicer" neighborhood. I'd probably constantly take the bus back to where I live now to fit in. Pretty much my life has been about finding ways around struggles that people who live up there are not going to begin to understand unless they have been laid off and lost their insurance and found themselves running very low on cash. Then they might "get it". Rob

Yossarian

8-24-14, 1:25pm

surrounded by a much higher social class

There you go bringing class into it again ;)

http://youtu.be/JvKIWjnEPNY

iris lilies

8-24-14, 2:05pm

There you go bringing class into it again ;)

http://youtu.be/JvKIWjnEPNY
"watery tarts" indeed! haha

catherine

8-24-14, 4:10pm

I've been reading this thread with interest, with nothing to contribute at all, but I'm watching a Derrick Jensen YouTube of his book Endgame in which he posits the premises in the book and here is one of his premises:

Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims.

I'm not saying this has anything to do with Ferguson, but just in general, could it be true?

Yossarian

8-24-14, 6:10pm

See the video above..

"Now we see the violence inherent in the system.... Help! Help! I'm being repressed"

iris lilies

8-24-14, 8:34pm

I've been reading this thread with interest, with nothing to contribute at all, but I'm watching a Derrick Jensen YouTube of his book Endgame in which he posits the premises in the book and here is one of his premises:

I'm not saying this has anything to do with Ferguson, but just in general, could it be true?

Hard to know since in this case, Ferguson, (which your post may or may not have anything to do with) the feitishization taking place is of the thug. Teddy bears, MadDog bottles, flowers, etc laid out in the street at the scene of Mike Brown's death, rioting and destrcution in his honor, and chanting unique slogans to evoke only him--that is fetish. And more: a "family" autopsy by a celebrity shaman coronor for hire Dr. Baden performed on his body, and famous shake down shamans Sharpton and J Jackson paying tribute to him--all supporting this fetish.

He is a thug who, within a 15 minute period, robbed a store and threatened a man a third of his size and had physical altercation with a policeman which resulted in his death.

Are you saying that Jensen's theory is illustrative of thug society in this way: in the thug community the 292 lb thugs are high up there in the hierarchy, and in many black communities that is true. Who runs the corners? The drug lords and their thug lieutenants. I didn't think Ferguson was that far gone, but perhaps it is. Mike Brown was an up and coming thug, a newly emergent strong and powerful guy, a prince of thugs you could say. So yeah, his fetishization fits with Jensen's theory.

CathyA

8-24-14, 8:44pm

catherine.........I'm a little slow. Could you please explain that passage to me in simple terms? Thanks!

gimmethesimplelife

8-24-14, 9:14pm

And the plot continues to thicken.....turns out that the officer who arrested and assaulted the two journalists at the Ferguson McDonalds? Turns out that he not too long ago hog tied and choked a twelve year old for no apparent reason....according to gawker.com. Google gawker Ferguson Police Officer hog ties and chokes twelve year old for the story. Lots and lots and lots of rot and declining basic human rights is what I see here.....that and this cop needs to be fired and have his pension stripped from him pronto with national attention on the pension loss so that it strikes terror into the hearts of other cops (like nothing else could is my belief). Rob

Alan

8-24-14, 10:05pm

Lots and lots and lots of rot and declining basic human rights is what I see here.....that and this cop needs to be fired and have his pension stripped from him pronto with national attention on the pension loss so that it strikes terror into the hearts of other cops (like nothing else could is my belief). Rob
Should every public servant be fired and lose their pension at the moment someone makes an accusation or should they enjoy due process?

gimmethesimplelife

8-24-14, 10:18pm

Should every public servant be fired and lose their pension at the moment someone makes an accusation or should they enjoy due process?I'm all for due process - but for those convicted, immediate loss of pension and job. The only problem that I can see with what I have just typed is that police tend to get away with their misdeeds - there needs to be some mechanism in place to flatten their egos and make them afraid. I don't really trust due process per se but I don't know of a fair vehicle for them to have their day in court, which I do believe they should have. I can't think of a better solution than instant pension loss for police misbehavior - I still think that would strike terror into the hearts of police officers everywhere. I can't think of anything more effective. Like to flatten and punish the cop I referenced above - there is someone who really should not be drawing a pension. I'd bet being terrified of losing it would squelch his behavior overnight. Rob

Alan

8-24-14, 10:21pm

So you are in favor of "flattening and punishing" cops without the benefit of due process because you believe due process doesn't work for cops. That kind of thinking really scares me.

gimmethesimplelife

8-24-14, 10:27pm

So you are in favor of "flattening and punishing" cops without the benefit of due process because you believe due process doesn't work for cops. That kind of thinking really scares me.From what I have seen police officers seem to be mostly immune to their misdeeds - yet another reason I have no faith in American police or courts. Some kind of change needs to be affected as more people are waking up to the militarization and the heavy handedness and the immunity they enjoy from the law. All this coupled with the fact that they actually get a pension in this economy is too much for many people, at least many people I know. Yes, I do think they need to be punished when going over the line and in general need their attitudes and egos flattened. Such is definitely the case in Ferguson, Missouri. And I can't think of a fairer and quicker and more effective way than to instill terror of instant pension loss for misdeeds. Rob

ApatheticNoMore

8-24-14, 11:40pm

Should every public servant be fired and lose their pension at the moment someone makes an accusation or should they enjoy due process?

of course that's kind of how it works with everyone else's job (that's not a civil servant). Is "employment at will" anti due proces? But cops are heavily unionized, too much so IMO. No I'm not anti-union. If the rest of us had more of that "due process" it might be a good thing. But everything can be taken too far (inability to hold accountable is - the ability to fire - maybe after costing your employer 4.5 million would be enough) and for civil servants it becomes complex (because there ultimate salary payer is the taxpayer). And I don't think ANY civil servants have stronger unions than the cops, teachers probably only dream they did.

dmc

8-25-14, 6:48am

From what I have seen police officers seem to be mostly immune to their misdeeds - yet another reason I have no faith in American police or courts. Some kind of change needs to be affected as more people are waking up to the militarization and the heavy handedness and the immunity they enjoy from the law. All this coupled with the fact that they actually get a pension in this economy is too much for many people, at least many people I know. Yes, I do think they need to be punished when going over the line and in general need their attitudes and egos flattened. Such is definitely the case in Ferguson, Missouri. And I can't think of a fairer and quicker and more effective way than to instill terror of instant pension loss for misdeeds. Rob

I wonder what your neighborhood would look like with no police. North St. Louis would be looted and burned to the ground. I'm thankful that we have those that chose be police officers. Someone has to keep the thugs in line. I have several friends who are police officers and they couldn't be better people.

You should read some of your post, remove police and put in Gay, Black, ect. You sound like a bigot. I wish you would go ahead and move already to your utopian homeland. Where everyone is lower class and there is no police. I'm sure you will fit right in. But Id lock the doors. And buy a gun, you'll need it.

Alan

8-25-14, 7:34am

Yes, I do think they need to be punished when going over the line and in general need their attitudes and egos flattened. Such is definitely the case in Ferguson, Missouri. And I can't think of a fairer and quicker and more effective way than to instill terror of instant pension loss for misdeeds. Rob
Seems to me to be a kinder, gentler form of lynching. Democracy (mob rule) at it's finest.

catherine

8-25-14, 8:45am

Hard to know since in this case, Ferguson, (which your post may or may not have anything to do with) the feitishization taking place is of the thug. Teddy bears, MadDog bottles, flowers, etc laid out in the street at the scene of Mike Brown's death, rioting and destrcution in his honor, and chanting unique slogans to evoke only him--that is fetish. And more: a "family" autopsy by a celebrity shaman coronor for hire Dr. Baden performed on his body, and famous shake down shamans Sharpton and J Jackson paying tribute to him--all supporting this fetish.

He is a thug who, within a 15 minute period, robbed a store and threatened a man a third of his size and had physical altercation with a policeman which resulted in his death.

Are you saying that Jensen's theory is illustrative of thug society in this way: in the thug community the 292 lb thugs are high up there in the hierarchy, and in many black communities that is true. Who runs the corners? The drug lords and their thug lieutenants. I didn't think Ferguson was that far gone, but perhaps it is. Mike Brown was an up and coming thug, a newly emergent strong and powerful guy, a prince of thugs you could say. So yeah, his fetishization fits with Jensen's theory.

Yeah, I was on the fence about even posting this, since I haven't been engaged in this particular thread, and I've never read a Derrick Jensen book so I can't speak for what I think he meant, really. But philosophically, I do think you can see how this might be true. Some might call the police authority the top end of the hierarchy, in which case, Michael Brown's alleged attack on Wilson while he was in his car would seem to be far more egregious than Wilson's shooting Brown at 35 feet. Many of us who respect the authority of the police are likely to justify his action as self defense, while being disgusted at Brown's aggression.

But, yes, I hadn't thought about what you said--talking cultural/social hierarchy, then you have the social hierarchy of the black culture in Ferguson where the justification/horror switch is flipped. I have to think about that.. I haven't had my first cup of coffee yet.

I personally can think of many other situations in which his premise does and has born out over time--think of the "bad" Indians against the "good" cowboys, to take one example very simplistically. So I just thought I'd apply it to the Ferguson situation and see what people thought.

I really think that the Ferguson situation has reduced the conversation to a "us/them" discussion--a discussion that will lead us nowhere. The media has been playing off that beautifully, stirring up one faction against another. We have very few facts about what actually happened, but perceptions and beliefs and personal filters have shaped two different "realities" which are tearing people apart.

iris lilies

8-25-14, 9:46am

Yeah, I was on the fence about even posting this, since I haven't been engaged in this particular thread, and I've never read a Derrick Jensen book so I can't speak for what I think he meant, really. But philosophically, I do think you can see how this might be true. Some might call the police authority the top end of the hierarchy, in which case, Michael Brown's alleged attack on Wilson while he was in his car would seem to be far more egregious than Wilson's shooting Brown at 35 feet. Many of us who respect the authority of the police are likely to justify his action as self defense, while being disgusted at Brown's aggression.

But, yes, I hadn't thought about what you said--talking cultural/social hierarchy, then you have the social hierarchy of the black culture in Ferguson where the justification/horror switch is flipped. I have to think about that.. I haven't had my first cup of coffee yet.

I personally can think of many other situations in which his premise does and has born out over time--think of the "bad" Indians against the "good" cowboys, to take one example very simplistically. So I just thought I'd apply it to the Ferguson situation and see what people thought.

I really think that the Ferguson situation has reduced the conversation to a "us/them" discussion--a discussion that will lead us nowhere. The media has been playing off that beautifully, stirring up one faction against another. We have very few facts about what actually happened, but perceptions and beliefs and personal filters have shaped two different "realities" which are tearing people apart.

I haven't read any Derrick Jensen works but would fully expect his societal "hierarchy" to not have Mike Brown near the top.;)

I just turned the idea upside down because I found it more interesting than a traditional concept of hierarchy.

CathyA

8-25-14, 9:56am

Maybe I should start a new thread on this, but here's my take on things. I know there are some who will call me racist........but what I am saying isn't necessarily a value judgement about any certain race.

I know there are lots of communities that get along just fine with mixed races and cultures.........but I think it can be a huge problem in other areas.

And when I say what I'm about to, isn't a racist thing............but rather an observation I've been making about alot of different countries and cultures. I'm thinking that the problem starts when the different cultures try to be all-together. I think alot of people want to come to the U.S. for the freedoms........but then they use that to demand that they can continue their various beliefs and cultures.........which may be in direct opposition to the culture that is already there. I'm seeing this in alot of European countries. Countries that have had an incredibly beautiful, rich cultural heritage, and it's being over-run with other cultures coming in and diluted the previous/majority culture and causing discord.
And Yes.........I know my forefathers ruined the Native American culture. I know this, and it saddens me........so don't reduce everything I'm saying to that. Although.........it IS a perfect example of one culture obliterating another one.

Anyhow.........to the Ferguson problem. Don't you think that the problem IS racial/cultural? This community (and many others like it all over) live/behave/talk, etc., in a way that is uncomfortable to the Caucasian culture
around them? I think alot of our troubles boil down to the fact that perhaps we just will never be able to create a Utopian society, where "the lion lays with the lamb" so to speak. I think we still have primitive wiring but our present society, in order to maintain law and order, has to somehow deal with that....with laws that make everyone equal. We aren't equal. We might have very different cultural tendencies that some people can overlook, and others are offended by it.
Some people say it's an economic problem.........but I'm just wondering if our attempts to get everyone to "just get along" with each other, is too lofty a goal.
"Civilized" societies seem to try to distance themselves as much as possible from animal behavior. And accepting everyone of all different cultures seems to be a good idea........but is it working against our very hard-wired nature?
Alan.....if you think this should be a new thread, please feel free to start one.....maybe with the title "When cultures collide".....or something like that.

DH's grandmother came over from europe around 1915. He keeps saying how much immigrants wanted to fit into the American culture (while peacefully sharing their various cultural ways....cooking, social things, etc.) But today, it seems like the cultures are demanding to keep all their previous culture and not have to be like the white folk.
I know we held the blacks in slavery, so they weren't willing immigrants. But it seems like so many black communities are everywhere, and they don't have alot of interest in being any different. The choices some of the young black men are choosing only seem to involve violence and ignorance.

Maybe the white police get really tired of seeing this kind of behavior day after day after day. Just like French people might get tired of seeing Islamic behavior......and Italy might get tired of seeing North African behavior, etc., etc., etc.
I'm rambling. My point is, perhaps we're expecting too much to think that extremely different cultures can live in harmony?
Like I've said in another thread somewhere here.........I like trying to understand what brings us to the present situations.
Whatever we're doing now to make it all work, seems fairly futile to me.

Packy

8-25-14, 10:08am

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 11:08am

Once again, I'm amazed at a couple of posters here who seem to expect me to go along and give the police a free pass even though I have witnessed police brutality in my neighborhood in Phoenix against Hispanic neighbors. Sorry, no can do. Witnessing that pretty much severed any potential trust in American police or courts for me permanently. There is no going back once you see something like this and you learn exactly what America is all about. I would agree that not all cops are like this - I do believe that - the problem is as I've said before that too many are and when they pull (fill in the expletive) they tend to be above the law and consequences. That's why instant pension loss works for me so well. I'd really be willing to take personal time and picket and protest for such to take place.

I came across something scathingly brilliant online last night - someone suggested that with all the lawsuits coming up due to over the top police behavior in Ferguson, that the settlements come out of the pension fund for the Ferguson police department. I'd be down with that, too, and it would create peer pressure to behave as one of the big perks of being a cop would disappear. I think this idea is even better than mine as it would allow for due process - and since the eyes of the world are on this case, any perception of the Ferguson police being above the law will have international and economic consequences. It's about time the police were put under the microscope like that, especially after what I have witnessed here in Phoenix and after what the police have been pulling after the shooting death of Michael Brown.

Something else that is wonderful about Ferguson and how heavy handed the cops have been since the shooting? There is less hesitation to go online and to the media and to post on social media about police misdeeds, and there is much higher of a chance of police heavy handedness getting international attention now. This is wonderful I believe. I also believe that there will be more pressure on police departments to behave once the numerous lawsuits are settled in Ferguson. Maybe the long era of the police being above the law will be coming to an end? We can hope. Rob

iris lilies

8-25-14, 11:20am

Once again, I'm amazed at a couple of posters here who seem to expect me to go along and give the police a free pass even though I have witnessed police brutality in my neighborhood in Phoenix against Hispanic neighbors. Sorry, no can do. ...Rob

You make two points over and over that I will now address, but won't argue against, because they are too generaL

1) Rob: There is police brutality in the U.S., there is inappropriate action by police.
iris:No kidding.

2) Rob:I do not trust police.
iris: OK.

My worldview doesn't have to be your worldview and you may form you own opinion, but I'm not going to argue with point #2 because that's your worldview and you are entitled to it.

The generalities in #1 are too extreme to have a conversation. Police brutality and lying and graft and corruption all happen, sure. It's a good thing to have watchdogs watching the watchdogs, and I regularly see news reports of Internal Affairs investigations in my local police force. So from whee I sit, there IS regular review of police action. Didn't you watch The Shield? Vince finally got what was coming to him, you know. It just took seven seasons. :)

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 11:23am

I feel a littlebittybit intimidated by this discussion. You Kids obviously all have earned a Doctorate in Sociology, and I just have a B.S. The main difference between a BS and a BA in Sociology is the difference between dissecting a cat in Biology Lab, and sort-of learning Spanish. Plus, I am full of B.S. Which did you do? Discuss amongst yourselves. One thing I noticed is, that the Establishment in Ferguson is all white, while the citizenry is 70% black. I figure there is resentment and contempt for authority because of some (perceived)negative effects from it. I can understand why, in a relatively high-crime area, the law enforcement personnel might become jaded and callused. However, if it were the other way around--black domination, white majority citizen base--and tough cops--the whites might not be comfortable with that, either. Meanwhile, in areas like where I live that don't begin to have this type of situation, the good citizens harshly condemn the "ghetto behavior". Yet, this community which is 94% Caucasian, has had a number of people shot by police through the years, and though some were questionable, they were all cleared as justified! No demonstrations, no backlash----and no reform! Seems like one characteristic value of the Southern USA Bible Belt is to Respect Authority--almost to a fault. Years ago(1960's-70's, there was a Sheriff in the next county who was notorious for "Kinging" young guys he caught while on patrol. Just beat the heck out of them with his flashlight, and let them go. He lost the election, but ran again and was re-elected. Never got in trouble for it, and lived well into old age.You bring up an interesting point Packy - about respecting authority in the South. I myself lived in Georgia for a year - I went to go live with an aunt and an uncle when my mother remarried years ago and things just were not working out well. I just called my aunt and uncle and they said they'd take me in and my Mom said stay for six months and let me see how things work out here so I went. It is a different mentality there as to authority and I had had not all the realizations I speak of now - I was 14 at the time - though the basics had dawned on my by then. Very scary to me how in smaller Southern places like where I was living - Dalton, GA in my case - the police truly do get away with quite a bit and people just sweep it under the rug. I'm so glad to be out of there, I really am. Rob

Alan

8-25-14, 11:24am

Didn't you watch The Shield? Vince finally got what was coming to him, you know. It just took seven seasons. :)
Vic, not Vince. I know because my wife had a crush on the character, a bad boy with a heart of gold (says she).

iris lilies

8-25-14, 11:25am

.... One thing I noticed is, that the Establishment in Ferguson is all white, while the citizenry is 70% black...

The current Ferguson mayor ran unopposed in 2011. That's what happens in real life, the guy who shows up gets elected.

One really has to give a shit and put some resources behind that in order to make any real change. But making a totem of Mad Dog bottles and grubby teddy bears in the street is so much easier.

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 11:25am

You make two points over and over that I will now address, but won't argue against, because they are too generaL

1) Rob: There is police brutality in the U.S., there is inappropriate action by police.
iris:No kidding.

2) Rob:I do not trust police.
iris: OK.

My worldview doesn't have to be your worldview and you may form you own opinion, but I'm not going to argue with point #2 because that's your worldview and you are entitled to it.

The generalities in #1 are too extreme to have a conversation. Police brutality and lying and graft and corruption all happen, sure. It's a good thing to have watchdogs watching the watchdogs, and I regularly see news reports of Internal Affairs investigations in my local police force. So from whee I sit, there IS regular review of police action. Didn't you watch The Shield? Vince finally got what was coming to him, you know. It just took seven seasons. :)IL, Thank You. You have made it clear here that you are not just handing out a free pass to the police. I really respect that. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 11:27am

The Ferguson mayor ran unopposed in 2011.

One really has to give a shit and put some resources behind that in order to make any real change.I think you have a point here and if he runs unopposed next time around, you'd have an even better point. Interesting to see if he will run unopposed next time, no? Rob

iris lilies

8-25-14, 11:29am

Vic, not Vince. I know because my wife had a crush on the character, a bad boy with a heart of gold (says she).

Oh yes, Vic! Vic Mackey! He's one of the greatest characters of all times. And I got very choked up when Lemonhead (Curtis Lemenowsky or something like that) bought the farm.

Alan

8-25-14, 11:32am

IL, Thank You. You have made it clear here that you are not just handing out a free pass to the police. I really respect that. RobYou know, I haven't seen anyone give a free pass to the police. What I've seen in this discussion is the tendency to blame the police without the benefit of facts. And by the way, more often than not social media does not deal in facts, but rather emotion and biases. Rabble rousing is not a sound basis for justice, and "what I would like to see" is a poor substitute for due process.

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 11:33am

Though we can not know how this is going to unfold, has anyone thought of the consequences if there is no indictment of the officer involved? Ouch. Just ouch. All I can say is if there is no indictment, there better be extremely solid, logical, and easy to understand evidence backing this decision up. Vague legal games are not going to fly on this one, not with all the hate and tension simmering and not with all the international attention focused on Ferguson. Though I will say one thing - if there is no indictment - maybe this is what it will take for America in general to learn? Sad but maybe so.....Rob

LDAHL

8-25-14, 11:40am

I came across something scathingly brilliant online last night - someone suggested that with all the lawsuits coming up due to over the top police behavior in Ferguson, that the settlements come out of the pension fund for the Ferguson police department. I'd be down with that, too, and it would create peer pressure to behave as one of the big perks of being a cop would disappear. I think this idea is even better than mine as it would allow for due process - and since the eyes of the world are on this case, any perception of the Ferguson police being above the law will have international and economic consequences. It's about time the police were put under the microscope like that, especially after what I have witnessed here in Phoenix and after what the police have been pulling after the shooting death of Michael Brown.

You seem fixated on pensions, Rob. If a cop is found guilty, why not treat him like any other convicted murderer? It would seem that trying to assign some kind of collective guilt to the members of a police department smacks of the sort of thinking all the people that are so quick to attribute racist motivations to incidents like this are accusing the cops of.

But fear not, the unfunded obligations of many public pensions in this country are so egregious, you may get your wish anyway.

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 11:42am

You know, I haven't seen anyone give a free pass to the police. What I've seen in this discussion is the tendency to blame the police without the benefit of facts. And by the way, more often than not social media does not deal in facts, but rather emotion and biases. Rabble rousing is not a sound basis for justice.Perhaps there is something to what you say. I know that when I see the police anywhere, based on what I have witnessed them get away with, I auto-expect them to be up to no good and breaking laws with complete and total immunity. I can't see this ever changing on my part, either. America has taught me otherwise. But there is a tendency I have seen online to blame before the facts....very liberal of me but I do see a point here. The problem is, the heavy handedness of the police SINCE the shooting is leading to the perception that police are auto-guilty. Police behavior in Ferguson since the shooting is definitely not helping their side of the case and public perceptions of the police in Ferguson, and I've said before in this post, for better or worse, for many people this is all going to boil down to perception. It's kind of like being a waiter. You can get a guest who complains for something totally that you had no control over and you can get fired for this even though the guest was wrong - all due to something called perception. I believe police everywhere are going to be stunned to realize they are vulnerable to this concept too, and they may want to be making plan Bs and back up retirement plans to cover themselves. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 11:46am

You seem fixated on pensions, Rob. If a cop is found guilty, why not treat him like any other convicted murderer? It would seem that trying to assign some kind of collective guilt to the members of a police department smacks of the sort of thinking all the people that are so quick to attribute racist motivations to incidents like this are accusing the cops of.

But fear not, the unfunded obligations of many public pensions in this country are so egregious, you may get your wish anyway.To have that degree of immunity to the law and any consequences for breaking the law AND get a pension? This is too much for me, hence the resentment that police collect pensions. Rob

LDAHL

8-25-14, 11:53am

To have that degree of immunity to the law and any consequences for breaking the law AND get a pension? This is too much for me, hence the resentment that police collect pensions. Rob

So pursue the guy for wrongful death in civil court and attach his pension (provided you've got sufficient evidence). Why the drive for guilt by association?

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 12:12pm

So pursue the guy for wrongful death in civil court and attach his pension (provided you've got sufficient evidence). Why the drive for guilt by association?I have seen police brutality just because someone is Hispanic - i.e, guilt by association, same thing. As to how this relates to pensions, it could create an environment of peer pressure to behave due to terror of pension loss. I can't think of a better way to keep the police in line - terror of economic loss can be quite an effective tool. Look at how corporations use this to squeeze the last drop out of workers these days. Rob

dmc

8-25-14, 12:42pm

I thought the police in Ferguson showed great restraint. While under attach from an unruly mob they didn't open fire with real bullets.

dmc

8-25-14, 12:45pm

I'd like to see Rob walk around North or East St. Louis at night. He would be hoping for a police escort and thinking the cops are way underpaid for what they have to deal with.

dmc

8-25-14, 12:56pm

Packy

8-25-14, 1:16pm

Thankfully I read where Darren Wilson supporters have raised about $350,000 so far to help him out. Since many won't accept anything short of a lynching, and pension funds, it's good to know he will have a emergency fund.Well, yeah---I see nothing wrong with donors voluntarily helping this guy out, financially. Because, no doubt he will incur some expense before this is over. Plus, it hasn't been a pleasant experience for him, either.

Packy

8-25-14, 1:18pm

It doesn't matter if the Mayoral candidate was unopposed--that doesn't somehow justify a perverse situation. As far as free elections go---in this area, which prides itself on being VERY conservative, there was an election in which the longtime incumbent public administrator(a Democrat & who sees to the finances of people who become incompetent or have no next-of-kin)was suddenly booted out of office by people mindlessly voting straight-ticket Republican. Her opponent was an individual who was a disgruntled former employee that had had a bankruptcy & various other baggage. Guess what? Even though she was legitimately elected, The Establishment set about to unseat her, through the courts, and succeeded! Not only did she not take office, but The Establishment reinstated the losing candidate, the incumbent. So, it demonstrates to me that just because you run, and win the election---well it ain't over yet.

JaneV2.0

8-25-14, 1:20pm

...
Whatever we're doing now to make it all work, seems fairly futile to me.

Futile? One of my interests is the number of innovative, creative young people who come up with all kinds of inventions and discoveries to advance science and improve our lives. A large number of these kids are immigrants, or the offspring of immigrants. I'm not eager to send these brilliant students back—we need all the brains we can get.

I'd like to see some evidence for your (oft-stated) premise that today's immigrants are a bunch of insular malcontents/slackers—because I don't see it. I Of course, there are other insular groups—Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints, Hasidic Jews, the Amish--that no one ever mentions. Closing yourself off from the society around you is certainly possible, but it leads inevitably to sclerosis of the mind and heart.

I live on the Seattle Eastside, which is—like Seattle in general—an IT melting pot. People come here from all over the world to work for Microsoft and other techno-behemoths. I don't see a lot of unrest here. When I worked as an intern, my immediate supervisor was from Beijing (married to an Italian-American), and my work group consisted of students from Mexico and China, and a woman from Canada. I often relate the time a few of us went to lunch at a Japanese restaurant and Li and I practiced our Arabic on each other (she had worked in Israel, where she picked it up. She was there to teach Israelis Chinese.) Is this the world you're so afraid of? It could hardly be more exciting to me. My youth was so bland; everyone seemed exactly the same—talk about insulated! When I studied languages, it was a treat to even find current reading material, let alone native speakers to practice on. :-D Anyway, if it weren't for immigration, I wouldn't be here, and neither would my Spanish, French, Yaqui SO (all of whose siblings speak English, btw, even though their father did not.)

It's a cliché' that the only thing constant in life is change. Who knows what this country will look like in a hundred years—surely different than it did a hundred or two hundred or several hundred years ago. Maybe the original owners will take it back (whoever the “original” owners are).

LDAHL

8-25-14, 1:30pm

I have seen police brutality just because someone is Hispanic - i.e, guilt by association, same thing. As to how this relates to pensions, it could create an environment of peer pressure to behave due to terror of pension loss. I can't think of a better way to keep the police in line - terror of economic loss can be quite an effective tool. Look at how corporations use this to squeeze the last drop out of workers these days. Rob

So if say, a Muslim doctor kills a number of people on an army base, we would be justified in punishing a few random Muslims (or perhaps a few random doctors) as a way to encourage the others to exert peer pressure for good behavior?

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 1:47pm

So if say, a Muslim doctor kills a number of people on an army base, we would be justified in punishing a few random Muslims (or perhaps a few random doctors) as a way to encourage the others to exert peer pressure for good behavior?To me this is different, very different. The police have power over us, carry guns, can arrest us and hassle us, and therefore I hold them to a higher standard. In Ferguson they have not only failed my standard, but many other people's, too, and it will be interesting to see how much money transfers via lawsuits against the Ferguson police department - and overreaching officers from local police departments that stopped by to "help". Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 1:49pm

Thankfully I read where Darren Wilson supporters have raised about $350,000 so far to help him out. Since many won't accept anything short of a lynching, and pension funds, it's good to know he will have a emergency fund.If he does get off scott free, that money is enough to buy him a passport/citizenship in several countries. For his own safety and perhaps sanity, I'd recommend leaving the US even for him - though this may not be possible due to the internet and this officer's notoriety. Rob

CathyA

8-25-14, 2:05pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 2:33pm

Rob, I get the feeling that you need for everyone you talk to here, to agree with you. It's just never going to happen. We've all had so many varied experiences, it would be fairly impossible to get everyone to agree.

Jane........here's some more of my "oft-stated" stuff. (It has always seemed to bother you the most around here). I think one problem we're all having here is that all of us have, like I just said to Rob, such a variety of different experiences. Some of live in the middle of all sorts of cultures and people who get along. Some of us have had mostly bad experiences with certain types/cultures of people. Of course not everyone in different groups is going to be the same. I think it's pretty natural, if a person sees a certain type of behavior in a certain group of people over and over......there are going to be some generalizations made.
We should all strive for and hope for a peaceful co-existence with everyone. But sometimes people live around a skewed representation of certain types, and it would be naive to not acknowledge that.
I'm happy for you that you live in a place where everyone is happy and reasonable. But not everyone lives in a place like that. And it sounds like you're talking about, and interacting with very bright people from different cultures. That is quite different from the people I'm referring to in some of what I've said. Plus........as I said, I was trying to understand why some things might lead to some problems in cultures.Cathy, people here are not going to agree with me. That's been made abundantly clear. I get that. I don't need people to agree with me per se - I post as I am a bit of fresh air around here - I hold positions that are unpopular, would you not agree with that? I can't change what took place/is taking place in Missouri, much as I'd like to. The little that I can do is to provide some kind of illumination as to why people would react the way that they did in Ferguson and to also show how less incomed people perceive the police and the courts in general. It's not a pretty picture, no, but there are more people that think like this than just me and the number grows every year with more people being booted out of the middle class. Rob

Also, I try to point out that there are more takes on this situation that the one that seems to reign on this board. Another way of looking at it is that you know how employers hold workers accountable for every last little thing these days no matter how small? We're talking of quite large issues here that are not going to politely go away - it's time to hold the police and the courts accountable mercilessly and relentlessly so I see it. It's been a long time in coming but perhaps (?) this will be the incident that does spark some positive change in the police and courts?

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 2:41pm

Well, yeah---I see nothing wrong with donors voluntarily helping this guy out, financially. Because, no doubt he will incur some expense before this is over. Plus, it hasn't been a pleasant experience for him, either.To be fair, I'm betting that this has not been a pleasant experience for him at all and he probably did not foresee all this happening after the shooting. I don't feel sympathy per se but I can see where this officer's life is never going to be the same again - supposing that there is no indictment, how safe is he? How could he realistically just stroll into the Ferguson police department and assume his prior duties as if nothing happened? Plus we don't know what kind of emotional scars he now bears due to fallout he probably thought he was immune from or didn't even think of in the first place. I truly wish this officer had never met up with Michael Brown to begin with but maybe, maybe, maybe, the good to come out of this will be some social change? There is a bill being drafted right now by a Democrat from Georgia in regards to reigning in the militarization of the police, for example. At least some unpleasant issues are on the table receiving proper international attention. Rob

JaneV2.0

8-25-14, 2:48pm

...

Jane........here's some more of my "oft-stated" stuff. (It has always seemed to bother you the most around here). I think one problem we're all having here is that all of us have, like I just said to Rob, such a variety of different experiences. Some of live in the middle of all sorts of cultures and people who get along. Some of us have had mostly bad experiences with certain types/cultures of people. Of course not everyone in different groups is going to be the same. I think it's pretty natural, if a person sees a certain type of behavior in a certain group of people over and over......there are going to be some generalizations made.
We should all strive for and hope for a peaceful co-existence with everyone. But sometimes people live around a skewed representation of certain types, and it would be naive to not acknowledge that.
I'm happy for you that you live in a place where everyone is happy and reasonable. But not everyone lives in a place like that. And it sounds like you're talking about, and interacting with very bright people from different cultures. That is quite different from the people I'm referring to in some of what I've said. Plus........as I said, I was trying to understand why some things might lead to some problems in cultures.

Of course everyone here isn't happy or reasonable. But in my many years of life, by far the most disagreements I've had--99.8% or so--have been with WASPs and I imagine that's true for you, too. Hmmm. Except for my SO, come to think of it. Maybe you have a point! :laff: I think the main problem--if any--we have in integrating different cultures is fear and suspicion of the "other." As people get to know each other, those problems are usually resolved.

dmc

8-25-14, 3:05pm

To be fair, I'm betting that this has not been a pleasant experience for him at all and he probably did not foresee all this happening after the shooting. I don't feel sympathy per se but I can see where this officer's life is never going to be the same again - supposing that there is no indictment, how safe is he? How could he realistically just stroll into the Ferguson police department and assume his prior duties as if nothing happened? Plus we don't know what kind of emotional scars he now bears due to fallout he probably thought he was immune from or didn't even think of in the first place. I truly wish this officer had never met up with Michael Brown to begin with but maybe, maybe, maybe, the good to come out of this will be some social change? There is a bill being drafted right now by a Democrat from Georgia in regards to reigning in the militarization of the police, for example. At least some unpleasant issues are on the table receiving proper international attention. Rob

Maybe, even after being attacked by Michael Brown, and then after Brown came back at him, even though he was in fear of being killed himself, he still feels bad about having to take a life.

I wish Michael Brown wasn't a thug.

LDAHL

8-25-14, 3:23pm

To me this is different, very different. The police have power over us, carry guns, can arrest us and hassle us, and therefore I hold them to a higher standard. In Ferguson they have not only failed my standard, but many other people's, too, and it will be interesting to see how much money transfers via lawsuits against the Ferguson police department - and overreaching officers from local police departments that stopped by to "help". Rob

It seems to me that the only difference is your hostility to a particular group. Punishing one person for another's crime, under any circumstance, is not the sort of policy a civilized society should want to adopt.

ApatheticNoMore

8-25-14, 3:37pm

I hold positions that are unpopular, would you not agree with that?

Not necessarily. I suspect people that may agree with you to some degree are staying away from this thread (as being way too hot to handle and even getting personal). I can't say that I blame them.

The little that I can do is to provide some kind of illumination as to why people would react the way that they did in Ferguson

I think that's pretty obvious and was instantly, they react to a perceived pattern of police brutality and abuse in this country and locally (because it's not like the Brown thing just came out of a vacuum, and there were no other cases). So they may judge a bit quickly for this particular case, but honestly the other side is just as guilty of that, and it's completely and utterly obvious (to everyone but themselves). As each piece of new information got out from the incident (yes there is still some missing), people were quick to tout whatever agreed with them.

bae

8-25-14, 3:39pm

Maybe, even after being attacked by Michael Brown, and then after Brown came back at him, even though he was in fear of being killed himself, he still feels bad about having to take a life.

If it played out as an assault/self-defense situation, even if *none* of this other business was playing out, it's serious business for the officer. It's not an easy thing to take a life, or suffer through an assault on your own life. Often there is counseling needed.

I've had two people die this year while my hands were crushing their bones and violently assaulting them (while trying to save them), and been intimately involved in several other deaths (as in, I had to decontaminate my clothing...). Each time, my department required mandatory counseling and mental health awareness checks to make sure those involved weren't having too hard a time moving forward with it.

Rob though wants to punish everyone in the officer's department, and have them move forward living in fear and terror if anyone steps out of line, as judged by Rob's Mob and the Twitterverse. I think we should instead just eliminate police forces entirely, and usher in a new era of healthy community spirit and peace.

creaker

8-25-14, 4:40pm

It seems to me that the only difference is your hostility to a particular group. Punishing one person for another's crime, under any circumstance, is not the sort of policy a civilized society should want to adopt.

But isn't that exactly what people do when they lump "them", "those people", whatever into a single group? It seemed a lot of that also happened during the protests. NYPD has made it a working policy.

There is good and bad everywhere - and I think when anyone ignores the realities of either side of that, it creates problems.

gimmethesimplelife

8-25-14, 6:51pm

Maybe, even after being attacked by Michael Brown, and then after Brown came back at him, even though he was in fear of being killed himself, he still feels bad about having to take a life.

I wish Michael Brown wasn't a thug.See what I mean about auto-siding with the police? We don't know all the facts yet as others have posted. Flip this around to auto-side against the police and it could be my post.

I do agree with you that Michael Brown was a thug, regardless of what I think about the police or the courts. He was no innocent angel for sure. Rob

dmc

8-25-14, 8:32pm

See what I mean about auto-siding with the police? We don't know all the facts yet as others have posted. Flip this around to auto-side against the police and it could be my post.

I do agree with you that Michael Brown was a thug, regardless of what I think about the police or the courts. He was no innocent angel for sure. Rob

I'm willing to wait for the facts to come out. You have seamed to have already made up your mind. But I will admit I tend to side with the police story. It's much more believable that Michael Brown attacked the officer than the other way around. What did the officer have to gain for shooting him? Brown had just robbed a store, as you say a known thug.

Do you believe that the officer was trying to pull a 300lb man thru the window or is it more likely that Brown was attacking him and reaching for his gun?

Alan

8-25-14, 8:34pm

bae

8-25-14, 8:58pm

Agreed, but I'm an Occams Razor kinda guy without an axe to grind.

Alan, I'm shocked! I might have a spare I can loan you!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AwwtwAvPkOc/S_rpEhfFtiI/AAAAAAAAD8U/juDHeU5Fb8g/s720/gse_multipart6793438116023170181.tmp.jpg

Alan

8-25-14, 9:04pm

Alan, I'm shocked! I might have a spare I can loan you!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AwwtwAvPkOc/S_rpEhfFtiI/AAAAAAAAD8U/juDHeU5Fb8g/s720/gse_multipart6793438116023170181.tmp.jpg

I could use that broadaxe on a project this weekend if it's available. Gonna try my hand at decorating a fresh stump.

iris lilies

8-25-14, 9:20pm

I'm willing to wait for the facts to come out. You have seamed to have already made up your mind. But I will admit I tend to side with the police story. It's much more believable that Michael Brown attacked the officer than the other way around. What did the officer have to gain for shooting him? Brown had just robbed a store, as you say a known thug.

Do you believe that the officer was trying to pull a 300lb man thru the window or is it more likely that Brown was attacking him and reaching for his gun?

One of my WTF moments came a couple of weeks ago now when Mike Brown's sidekick in crime gave a televised interview and said that when the police officer opened his car door "it ricocheted..." and closed. Immediately my BS meter went off. Car doors don't "ricochet," the thugs pushed it closed. The passive way thug #2 describes the door's action as though he had nothing to do with it is telling.

But that said, I think there is still a lot of unknown detail between Mike Brown's likely aggression and shooting him dead, and Officer Wilson making a decision to NOT shoot him might be one of several reasonable actions.

catherine

8-25-14, 9:55pm

Maybe the white police get really tired of seeing this kind of behavior day after day after day. Just like French people might get tired of seeing Islamic behavior......and Italy might get tired of seeing North African behavior, etc., etc., etc.
I'm rambling. My point is, perhaps we're expecting too much to think that extremely different cultures can live in harmony?
Like I've said in another thread somewhere here.........I like trying to understand what brings us to the present situations.
Whatever we're doing now to make it all work, seems fairly futile to me.

Cathy, I've been thinking about this today, and especially after watching two hours of Derrick Jensen (who is not the person to listen to if you want to believe things are not futile).

I definitely think cultures can get along, but it takes really, really feeling that we are all on the same team.

I have a weird idea that the whole "7 generations" thing is actually true, and that we probably have about 50-60 years to hammer out with the African American community before they feel they can trust us (if you use the end of the Civil War to start the 7 generations clock). If you were reading a comic book about the Ferguson incident and everyone was the same color, things would be perceived far differently. But the truth is, if you look at the Buddhist concept of "store consciousness" (where past experiences are stored) there is so much there that has to be acknowledged and addressed on both sides. If we eliminate the concepts of "blame" and "victimhood" we have a starting point.

Some people are better able to transcend differences than others. DH and I were watching Slumdog Millionaire last night and he recalled how disappointed he was that when we put it on TV for his mother to watch she would have none of it. It was "an Indian movie" and she found it completely irrelevant, without even giving it a try. We have to see ourselves in every other person if we want to get to the point you're talking about, where we can all co-exist "in a new era of healthy community spirit and peace" as bae said (sarcastically). Yes, we have a LOOOONGGGG way to go. Maybe you and Derrick Jensen are right about the futility.

I'm hoping Jane is right, and that the younger generations are going to push us in the right direction.

ApatheticNoMore

8-26-14, 1:09am

Cathy, I've been thinking about this today, and especially after watching two hours of Derrick Jensen (who is not the person to listen to if you want to believe things are not futile).

even psychologists have labeled me the most pessimistic person they have ever met so ... breath in, futility, breath out, futility :laff: Probably not good for me to watch that :)

I definitely think cultures can get along, but it takes really, really feeling that we are all on the same team.

I have a weird idea that the whole "7 generations" thing is actually true, and that we probably have about 50-60 years to hammer out with the African American community before they feel they can trust us (if you use the end of the Civil War to start the 7 generations clock). If you were reading a comic book about the Ferguson incident and everyone was the same color, things would be perceived far differently. But the truth is, if you look at the Buddhist concept of "store consciousness" (where past experiences are stored) there is so much there that has to be acknowledged and addressed on both sides.

Some people are better able to transcend differences than others. DH and I were watching Slumdog Millionaire last night and he recalled how disappointed he was that when we put it on TV for his mother to watch she would have none of it. It was "an Indian movie" and she found it completely irrelevant, without even giving it a try. We have to see ourselves in every other person if we want to get to the point you're talking about, where we can all co-exist "in a new era of healthy community spirit and peace" as bae said (sarcastically). Yes, we have a LOOOONGGGG way to go.

If someone doesn't like a certain race or class or the combination because of personal experiences, that kind of is what it is. Except to note that "all generalities are false" :) But of course one has no obligation to hang out with that race/class. Except those very people you hate are probably posting on this board and you don't even know it - because intertubes! :laff: But if one's generalities are based on experience (not just being "carefully taught") and maybe even early life experience as a kid or something (school integration went really badly initially) then it no doubt has a great deal of personal validity (but ALL generalities ....). However systematically how minorities have been treated in this country, and none worse than African Americans, except perhaps native Americans (yea, yea even Irish were discriminated against but I'm standing by that statement), for decades and decades and decades, even very very recently, even now some might say and I wouldn't argue, is just a crime of epic proportions. And these communities are probably still reeling even economically from all that was done to them .... (a lot of economic opportunities were limited for decades and decades and decades) and it would probably be best to understand that before criticizing them.

Not (white) "guilt" because to argue people are responsible for what happened before they were born is completely absurd, and even to argue that people are entirely responsible as individuals for their society is also absurd though not quite to the same degree (it's a difficult question ...). Not guilt - guilt is for children. Not guilt but simple acknowledgement of history.

Gregg

8-26-14, 9:54am

Rob though wants to punish everyone in the officer's department, and have them move forward living in fear and terror if anyone steps out of line, as judged by Rob's Mob and the Twitterverse. I think we should instead just eliminate police forces entirely, and usher in a new era of healthy community spirit and peace.

If Mr. Brown's replacement is willing to try, so am I.

gimmethesimplelife

8-26-14, 10:55am

Alan

8-26-14, 11:34am

And the plot continues to thicken, this time with real evidence though since I am not familiar with guns, I don't know what the evidence means. It seems as if someone in Ferguson hired an attorney to step forward with evidence - apparently they have audio of the shooting that shows six shots being fired in rapid succession, then a gap - a long space with no shots - and then four more. I don't know how this will impact the case but it does seem to be concrete evidence and if it proves the cop should be indicted - great. If it proves otherwise, great. At least it's something concrete. Rob
I'm not sure what thickening of plot this implies. I heard the tape this morning and there is an approximate 2 second gap in the gunfire. If they were fired at a person advancing upon the officer I would think it prudent to infer that the officer stopped firing when the person stopped, then started again as the person again advanced.
If the witnesses who reported Michael Brown was advancing upon the officer are to be believed, this makes perfect sense.

ApatheticNoMore

8-26-14, 11:42am

I suspect the residents of Ferguson might prefer self-policing at this point. Has anyone asked them? If not why project our beliefs (about whether we would rather have police or not) on them? Now of course this doesn't mean it's actually a practical plan. That's not actually how government works, to allow competing governments it's in midst! Hey feel free to disprove, but I think governments by their very nature, protect the monopoly of force thing. The practical plan short of revolution is reform within the system obviously - yawn, but really.

gimmethesimplelife

8-26-14, 11:47am

I suspect the residents of Ferguson might prefer self-policing at this point. Has anyone asked them? If not why project our beliefs (about whether we would rather have police or not) on them? Now of course this doesn't mean it's actually a practical plan. That's not actually how government works, to allow competing governments it's in midst! Hey feel free to disprove, but I think government protect the monopoly of force thing.I agree with you 100% and then some! I do believe the government wants to protect the monopoly of the force thing and I do believe self policing might be worth a try.....scary thought to cops everywhere, I'm sure. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-26-14, 11:51am

I'm not sure what thickening of plot this implies. I heard the tape this morning and there is an approximate 2 second gap in the gunfire. If they were fired at a person advancing upon the officer I would think it prudent to infer that the officer stopped firing when the person stopped, then started again as the person again advanced.
If the witnesses who reported Michael Brown was advancing upon the officer are to be believed, this makes perfect sense.What I meant was now that there is some evidence, real evidence being released, maybe things will be clearer now. Who knows? I don't know what this audio proves, but I'm glad it exists even it if serves to have the office not indicted. Better real proof of something than continued rioting and looting and continued heavy handed police behavior that makes us the laughing stock of the developed world and quite hypocritical internationally. I wonder once the lawsuits roll in if Ferguson will even have a police department any more? Rob

Gregg

8-27-14, 9:05am

I agree with you 100% and then some! I do believe the government wants to protect the monopoly of the force thing and I do believe self policing might be worth a try.....scary thought to cops everywhere, I'm sure. Rob

While I'm generally a fan of smaller and less omnipotent government in any and all senses, I'm not sure a self-policing society with a starting point in Ferguson would work out so well. Anarchy often sounds better on paper than it actually functions in real life.

CathyA

8-27-14, 11:18am

gimmethesimplelife

8-27-14, 11:25am

OMG............self policing? Haven't we humans shown over and over and over that we just can't make the best choices?
Okay........let's put a large fence around Ferguson, and they can be the first to give self-policing a try.Something has to be done about the police force in Ferguson....it is not racially similar to the general population in Ferguson and if the police step one millimeter over the line going forward, more lawsuits, more negative publicity (some of it international making us look further like the laughing stock of the developed world, which to me fits) more drama in general.....is this what we want? If self policing is a bad idea, fine, then something else needs to be done because the status quo is not working. Rob

rodeosweetheart

8-27-14, 11:41am

ApatheticNoMore

8-27-14, 12:12pm

people live together, work together, and think of themselves as a community.

think of themselves as a community when engaged in volunteering and so on I might buy, sure because such things are often by nature "everybody in". Of course what community one can afford to be part of (where one can afford to live) depends very much on income (unless one inherits a house etc., and of course one can often rent where they can't afford to buy). Work together? This is simply in my experience not true. While the work place is very very far from all white (heavily Asian at the jobs I've held), it's not exactly entirely racially integrated either. What jobs people (and the corresponding income) do tends to breakdown to a degree on racial lines. So I went to a high school that was heavily minority (hey high school reunion thread), the racial makeup of the jobs I have held in adulthood (professional middle class) is very different than that.

rodeosweetheart

8-27-14, 12:21pm

Right, ApatheticNoMore, that is your experience. I report my experience, teaching at a community college in South Carolina, where it is racially integrated and we do work together--I am talking about faculty, as that is my job; can't speak to any other job. My neighborhoods where I lived there have also been racially integrated. Jury I served on was racially integrated. Those are the things I was thinking of, which sound like they differ from where you live, your community.

catherine

8-27-14, 4:27pm

Catherine: "I have a weird idea that the whole "7 generations" thing is actually true, and that we probably have about 50-60 years to hammer out with the African American community before they feel they can trust us (if you use the end of the Civil War to start the 7 generations clock). '

I don;t buy this at all. First of all, the "we" you talk about here--who is this, and why doesn't this "we" include the African American community? This makes no sense to me, having lived in South Carolina where the community is emphatically composed of both black and white and people think in terms of a we that encompasses both--people live together, work together, and think of themselves as a community. I don't think in terms of some "we" that is a white identity. Where I teach in SC--we are definitely a "we" community, not separated into black and white, either students or teachers. I don't get this.

Second, generationally speaking, my paternal great grandfather fought for the Union Army from Illinois. So that is what--3 generations back? It's nowhere near 7. My 7th great granddad fought in the Revolutionary war. My maternal great grandfathers were Confederate soldiers. So how in the world does this 7th generation thing play out, unless you want to keep everyone in whatever identity box they were assigned in 1863? It just makes no sense to me.

I told you it's a weird idea. In my mind I think that the "sins of the father" (meaning, in this case, the sins of the white colonialists who made the slave trade a part of our culture) will take many years, many generations to overcome. So while it's easy for many of us to say, "get over it, blacks have alot more opportunity now," the remnants and the repercussions of slavery are still alive in the descendents of the slaves, and we, as a society, still suffer from those consequences.

I'm happy that you coexist happily in SC as a color-blind community, but as a country, the wounds are not healed. You see that in the disparities in the experience of blacks vs. whites today. Even Megyn Kelly gave Bill O'Reilly a talking-to about this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/26/megyn-kelly-bill-oreilly-white-privilege_n_5714619.html).

OK, maybe my math is wrong, but a generation is typically defined as around 30 years, so 7 generations is 210 years. And I don't take this literally, like in 2075 everyone will wake up all healed and happy. But I think time has to pass, and I think that the response to the event in Ferguson is still tied to how blacks were treated in 1865, not even consciously, but subconsciously, almost at a cellular level.

In the book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" by Gabor Mate (which is a wonderful book about addiction), he talks about how children who are in utero when their mothers are going through a stressful time have that stress imprinted in their DNA. They haven't felt stress at all--but it's transferred to them, and the likelihood of them growing up to be addicts is more likely than those whose mothers were stress-free. So I think it's a similar concept, and also similar to the Jungian concept of the collective consciousness. Some things are transferred through time, through "ether," through cells.. and they hang around, until we transform the experiences and feelings and change things for future generations.

CathyA

8-27-14, 4:36pm

catherine

8-27-14, 5:13pm

But what I don't understand is..........think of the holocaust. Maybe all the Jews now secretly hate all Germans, but I don't think that's true. Why do some people hang on to things longer than others? Sometimes I think it's just an excuse to vent one's free-floating anger.

Catherine........I don't know if you saw my question above, but please look back and respond to it. It's about the fetishization of things. I really didn't quite understand it.

Cathy, first of all, I did see your post after my original post on this topic and a) you're not slow and b) I actually don't have a firm hold on the idea of fetishization of the victim, but one of the examples Derrick Jensen gives in his book is how we kill sharks with impunity and no one says anything, but one shark bites someone swimming in the Gulf of Mexico and all sharks are evil creatures and the victim is treated with reverence. So, apply that to Ferguson, and we will tend to praise Wilson as a hero (as a symbol of the top end of the hierarchy) and villify Brown (as a symbol of the bottom end). This is before we have any facts.

As far as the Holocaust example you give, first of all, I can't speak for the Jewish people. I never had a loved one lost in the Holocaust or any genocide. But I wonder if their strong relationship to the land in Israel is connected, not to the Germans in particular, but to the the consequences of having what they thought was their nation (Germany) turn on them so violently. I'd love to have Selah weigh in on this. Selah, will it take 7 generations to overcome World War II?

Packy

8-27-14, 5:18pm

Here are two of my pet theories about greatly reducing the number of casualties (on one side) in the war against crime. I've actually had these in mind for quite awhile. One is, if we can put a man on the Moon--no wait--make readily-available handheld phones that do...everything, then why can't the masters of technology make some advances in non-lethal weaponry, that subdue suspects without lasting harm? Those "beanbags", rubber bullets, tasers, mace, etc.--they've been around since long before the cell phone with all its apps became widely available. So, my thought is--the engineers in the labs need to focus on developing this nonlethal technology, bringing it into the 21st Century. It would also have the potential for reducing civilian noncombatant deaths in the international wars we keep getting entangled in--making them a Peacekeeping mission, instead. The second thing I have is a deterrent policy for law enforcement. This would be effective, but lack political support--I just know it would. It's like this: If a cop shoots someone, they automatically lose their job, and go onto a universal LE no-rehire list. Ever hear that old joke: Robber says to Victim "Your Money or Your Life!" And the victim--I think it was Jack Benny telling this--says "Take My Life--I'm saving my money for my old age!" Okay--it's not perfectly analogous, but demonstrates the same principle. The cop will need to quickly evaluate the risk of death or serious harm he is facing and weigh it against the temporary inconvenience having to get into another line of work. See? Cops would be less trigger-happy if they know they will face sanctions-- get fired(if not prosecuted), and only use their guns as a last resort, and not as a crutch just to solve their problems in negotiating with suspects. Just like we citizens. Certain terms and conditions would apply. Think it over, and I'm sure you will realize I am right.

ApatheticNoMore

8-27-14, 5:44pm

But what I don't understand is..........think of the holocaust. Maybe all the Jews now secretly hate all Germans, but I don't think that's true.

well the Jews that stayed in Germany I don't think many survived, and so I don't think there's much of a line of descent of "Jews in Germany".

It's never just the past, it's always how the past is active now (like the massive incarceration rate, in general compared to other countries, yes of course, but it is also pretty massive for African Americans especially males).

Alan

8-27-14, 6:20pm

I think everyone trying to make this racial are missing the true focus. This country has multi-racial communities of hooligans and thugs who think it is acceptable to inflict violence on others. To me, the question should be "What can we do to change the acceptance of violent behavior in certain communities?"

nswef

8-27-14, 7:16pm

Alan, I agree with you. As long as violent behavior is not only accepted, but praised and documented as justified ....violence will occur, beginning with our own Department of Defense...formerly and more accurately the War Department. Violent solutions are all we seem to be able to see.

CathyA

8-27-14, 8:26pm

Thanks for that explanation catherine!

jp1

8-27-14, 9:39pm

iris lilies

8-27-14, 9:40pm

I told you it's a weird idea. In my mind I think that the "sins of the father" (meaning, in this case, the sins of the white colonialists who made the slave trade a part of our culture) will take many years, many generations to overcome. So while it's easy for many of us to say, "get over it, blacks have alot more opportunity now," the remnants and the repercussions of slavery are still alive in the descendents of the slaves, and we, as a society, still suffer from those consequences.

I'm happy that you coexist happily in SC as a color-blind community, but as a country, the wounds are not healed. You see that in the disparities in the experience of blacks vs. whites today. Even Megyn Kelly gave Bill O'Reilly a talking-to about this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/26/megyn-kelly-bill-oreilly-white-privilege_n_5714619.html).

OK, maybe my math is wrong, but a generation is typically defined as around 30 years, so 7 generations is 210 years. And I don't take this literally, like in 2075 everyone will wake up all healed and happy. But I think time has to pass, and I think that the response to the event in Ferguson is still tied to how blacks were treated in 1865, not even consciously, but subconsciously, almost at a cellular level.

In the book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" by Gabor Mate (which is a wonderful book about addiction), he talks about how children who are in utero when their mothers are going through a stressful time have that stress imprinted in their DNA. They haven't felt stress at all--but it's transferred to them, and the likelihood of them growing up to be addicts is more likely than those whose mothers were stress-free. So I think it's a similar concept, and also similar to the Jungian concept of the collective consciousness. Some things are transferred through time, through "ether," through cells.. and they hang around, until we transform the experiences and feelings and change things for future generations.

I wondered how you were counting "generations" since I figured 1=20 years and that ticking clock rang a few years ago. about 2005. Notice that nothing has changed. Derrick Jensen is just one more pontificating blowhard.

There is institutionalized racism in this country, and in all countries. It's sad and unfortunate that dark skin=more distrust and dislike heaped upon people. Of course, it's not just skin color in the U.S., it's a whole culture of values and behaviors that the underclass cling to, and that cause disrespect/fear/distrust/ and that does not serve them well, at least if they aspire to secure a stable economic place in our society. Is it worse in the U.S? It's worse here than in some places. It's better here than in some places. And it's worse/better here in the U.S. depending upon region. But "women are the n.i.g.g.e.r.s of the world" according to famed philosophers* so African Americans do not have the market cornered on victim-hood.

Now that the looting and rioting is over for the moment in my metro area, the airwaves, print media and tv are overwhelmed with racism discussions, calls for race discussion, and planning for discussion of race.

Yawn, I think I will avoid "The Conversation" since I've been hearing this stuff for 25 years and it bores me. At one time I was open and willing to participate, having been well trained up by educated liberal parents who lived in a lily white state in a white suburb (we had one African American in my class of 240 students and he was elected class President. His father was a physician. He was pretty suburban) then I moved to the 'hood and got real about criminals and the po-lice here.

In my neighborhood the po-lice are on my side, no questions, it is clear.We know our beat cop by name, DH regularly calls him (just called him this week in fact about a door nob theft) and we strive toward good relations with the police department. We take up collections for him, we attend Guns And Hoses each year and/or donate (fundraiser fo Backstoppers) and we furnish the police substation with food and drink. We cultivate the presence of police here because they keep the bad guys at bay.

*yoko and john lennon

iris lilies

8-27-14, 11:28pm

I agree with you 100% and then some! I do believe the government wants to protect the monopoly of the force thing and I do believe self policing might be worth a try.....scary thought to cops everywhere, I'm sure. Rob

Rob, cops aren't going to be "scared" of the idea, but I'd be scared of this thug who would be "self policing" Ferguson (note his gun in his waistband) unless he was too busy looting. His cronies tried to "get" the photographer who took this photo earlier in the night. You were all heated up about journalists being treated badly upthread, what do you think should happen to the protestors who went after a journalist? I'll bet you didn't hear about that on Buzzfeed, Huffpo or the kos.

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/64/06442ef2-0fc5-50cd-b7e4-a7d688ee9738/53e967600e30b.preview-620.jpg

article titled "Attacked on the job: a photographers' tale" is here:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/lrqtlmo

photo here:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/multimedia/ferguson-riots/image_06442ef2-0fc5-50cd-b7e4-a7d688ee9738.html

ApatheticNoMore

8-27-14, 11:29pm

I think that even if the underclass changed all their values and behaviors so that they didn't cause disrespect/fear/distrust, that while this might serve them better individually (and does it need saying I have no problem with people helping themselves this way individually) - someone else would take the place of an underclass (as a new underclass) if it wasn't whoever does now. Because there aren't enough high wage jobs or even jobs period to go around! And our leaders have no interest in maximizing say good jobs as national POLICY. Or massive amounts of jobs wouldn't have been outsourced etc! Quite a problem there. The middle class - well some of it is just manners and mannerism, values and preferences, but the middle class also takes extreme measures to protect thier middle class-ness generationally (all about moving to where the good school districts are or private school etc.).. If you aren't born into that your already behind.

I'm not engaging in some national race discussion (if I wanted that I could post blindly to twitter or something, tag it right and hope for retweets), I'm exchanging discussion with particular individuals who are posting on this thread.

I don't think black ghetto culture is necessarily easy for white culture to understand and get along with. But I really do think much of it stems from decades of AND current racial discrimination. I don't think individual whites (unless they have a lot of power - well if they are police they do have some) necessarily bear much blame for this.

But one can continue to discussion of "what to do with the African Americans in this country" until it becomes much like the "jewish question/jewish problem" in Europe was for all those years before the holocaust (oops Godwin). But that definitely doesn't seem the way to go.

iris lilies

8-27-14, 11:58pm

I think that even if the underclass changed all their values and behaviors so that they didn't cause disrespect/fear/distrust... someone else would take the place of an underclass (as a new underclass) if it wasn't whoever does now...

Probably. But those underclass cultures and persons have traditionally moved onwards and upwards, and traditionally it is new immigrants who get the grunt jobs, work the grunt jobs, educate their children, and are able to move out of my city and its ghetto cultures within one generation. The Vietnamese came to the city 30 years ago and have moved on to toney suburbs; the Bosnians came here 15+ years ago and are moving on. Neither group wants to live among the urban poor who are African American, it's a real phenomena. Historically we saw it happen 120 years ago with the Irish and 80 years ago with the Chinese. One underclass permanently remains. And certainly institutional racism plays a heavy role here.

Packy

8-28-14, 1:22am

Probably. But those underclass cultures and persons have traditionally moved onwards and upwards, and traditionally it is new immigrants who get the grunt jobs, work the grunt jobs, educate their children, and are able to move out of my city and its ghetto cultures within one generation. The Vietnamese came to the city 30 years ago and have moved on to toney suburbs; the Bosnians came here 15+ years ago and are moving on. Neither group wants to live among the urban poor who are African American, it's a real phenomena. Historically we saw it happen 120 years ago with the Irish and 80 years ago with the Chinese. One underclass permanently remains. And certainly institutional racism plays a heavy role here. Well, Iris: I'm just trying to figure out what you kids are still doing in da hood after what--25 years? It sounds like you are very much at-risk for being a crime victim of the hard-core underclass, there. As you said, many disadvantaged people(immigrants) have come and gone on to safer areas, as soon as they climbed the economic ladder. Again, my question is: Whaddya waiting for?

iris lilies

8-28-14, 1:29am

Well, Iris: I'm just trying to figure out what you kids are still doing in da hood after what--25 years? It sounds like you are very much at-risk for being a crime victim of the hard-core underclass, there. As you said, many disadvantaged people(immigrants) have come and gone on to safer areas, as soon as they climbed the economic ladder. Again, my question is: Whaddya waiting for?

You will not pry my old, Victorian house and this neighborhood from my cold, dead hands. That is, until I am done with it.
The thugs and fools won't be pushing me out.

CathyA

8-28-14, 6:30am

catherine

8-28-14, 8:36am

I wondered how you were counting "generations" since I figured 1=20 years and that ticking clock rang a few years ago. about 2005. Notice that nothing has changed. Derrick Jensen is just one more pontificating blowhard.

There is institutionalized racism in this country, and in all countries. It's sad and unfortunate that dark skin=more distrust and dislike heaped upon people. Of course, it's not just skin color in the U.S., it's a whole culture of values and behaviors that the underclass cling to, and that cause disrespect/fear/distrust/ and that does not serve them well, at least if they aspire to secure a stable economic place in our society. Is it worse in the U.S? It's worse here than in some places. It's better here than in some places. And it's worse/better here in the U.S. depending upon region. But "women are the n.i.g.g.e.r.s of the world" according to famed philosophers* so African Americans do not have the market cornered on victim-hood.

Now that the looting and rioting is over for the moment in my metro area, the airwaves, print media and tv are overwhelmed with racism discussions, calls for race discussion, and planning for discussion of race.

Yawn, I think I will avoid "The Conversation" since I've been hearing this stuff for 25 years and it bores me. At one time I was open and willing to participate, having been well trained up by educated liberal parents who lived in a lily white state in a white suburb (we had one African American in my class of 240 students and he was elected class President. His father was a physician. He was pretty suburban) then I moved to the 'hood and got real about criminals and the po-lice here.

In my neighborhood the po-lice are on my side, no questions, it is clear.We know our beat cop by name, DH regularly calls him (just called him this week in fact about a door nob theft) and we strive toward good relations with the police department. We take up collections for him, we attend Guns And Hoses each year and/or donate (fundraiser fo Backstoppers) and we furnish the police substation with food and drink. We cultivate the presence of police here because they keep the bad guys at bay.

*yoko and john lennon

Well, IL, Derrick Jensen may be a pontificating blowhard (and in many cases he is, as I'm getting to know him, yet he raises a lot of really good points about civilization). But the 7 generations thing is all me. I thnk the point is, it takes a very long time to undo the "sins of the father." And yes, we're still in it, but we've made great progress overall.

I also agree with you that discrimination against women is also formidable. Didn't Shirley Chisholm state once that she experienced much more discrimination on the basis of her being a woman than on the basis of her race?

I also am not prepared to start up the Race Talk, just like I'm also sick of the Abortion Talk, but to me, watching Ferguson play out on TV, it's like watching the epidermis of society peeled off, and all the stuff that's underneath that doesn't get talked about starts oozing out.

And, IL, I totally respect your viewpoint over that of educated liberal parents in the lily white suburbs.

Florence

8-28-14, 8:44am

What an interesting thread this is! Iris is a much braver person than I am. We moved out to the country about 10 years ago when our little neighborhood got ringed by rent-subsidized apartments.

sweetana3

8-28-14, 10:19am

We have a suddenly exploding inner city. Three Section 9 complexes in one area are now being converted to market rate. They have always been near the hospital and university but the demand is off the charts. Thousands (really!) of new apartments have recently come on the market and filled immediately. I wonder if this is the fallout now of the mortgage crisis and the cost of gas?

jp1

8-28-14, 10:37am

I suppose I would get flamed, if I offered up the possibility that some people are driven genetically to be violent and fairly incapable of ever becoming "civilized"?

I doubt that's the case. If I had to guess I'd say that every ethnic group (or any other segment of society) has a certain percentage, maybe 10%?, who are sociopaths that don't give a shit about other people. At the lower end of the economic spectrum they display this behavior through activities like looting (does anyone honestly believe that anywhere near a majority of the people in Ferguson were looting as opposed to just protesting?) At higher levels this sociopathic behavior presents itself in more "acceptable" ways (Wall Street banksters and mortgage brokers knowingly signing people up for debt they can't possibly pay just because it's profitable.) Among cops the same thing. 90% are probably good decent people who really want to serve their community but 10% take the job because of the power it will give them to be cruel and mean to people without much likelihood of facing consequences.

The only way that a certain group would genetically become more violent would be if they lived in such a brutal world that violent parents were more likely to successfully raise children to adulthood than non-violent people in the same population. Historically black Americans have certainly been mistreated, but I don't think that it's been anywhere near to the level that violent behavior would have resulted in more successful propagation of the next generation.

JaneV2.0

8-28-14, 11:15am

CathyA

8-28-14, 12:59pm

I doubt that's the case. If I had to guess I'd say that every ethnic group (or any other segment of society) has a certain percentage, maybe 10%?, who are sociopaths that don't give a shit about other people. At the lower end of the economic spectrum they display this behavior through activities like looting (does anyone honestly believe that anywhere near a majority of the people in Ferguson were looting as opposed to just protesting?) At higher levels this sociopathic behavior presents itself in more "acceptable" ways (Wall Street banksters and mortgage brokers knowingly signing people up for debt they can't possibly pay just because it's profitable.) Among cops the same thing. 90% are probably good decent people who really want to serve their community but 10% take the job because of the power it will give them to be cruel and mean to people without much likelihood of facing consequences.

The only way that a certain group would genetically become more violent would be if they lived in such a brutal world that violent parents were more likely to successfully raise children to adulthood than non-violent people in the same population. Historically black Americans have certainly been mistreated, but I don't think that it's been anywhere near to the level that violent behavior would have resulted in more successful propagation of the next generation.

But isn't that sort of what's happening? The parents of these violent young adults probably have 4-6 other children at home, being raised to turn out the same. While the more educated/"civilized", couples are choosing not to have children.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 1:23pm

Packy

8-28-14, 1:26pm

I suppose I would get flamed, if I offered up the possibility that some people are driven genetically to be violent and fairly incapable of ever becoming "civilized"?

Iris Lily......about your picture.........we could only hope that his pants finally fell down, causing the gun to go off and shoot him and his cohort. :~)Cathy, I have a theory that I am genetically driven to be fairly silly, and a littlebittybit uncivilized. So, your theory about a significant number of those people carries some credence with mee. I presume you are referring to those Scots. Well, aren't you?

LDAHL

8-28-14, 2:15pm

I think the nice thing about Ferguson - the good that is coming out of this? People are going to be more likely to litigate against the police going forward and ask the hard questions of America and this citizenship going forward. Also - police everywhere are going to have to get used to the power of social media being used against them when they step over the line. Overall, their power going forward is going to be questioned and hopefully flattened a bit. My belief is that this is long, long, long overdue. Rob

I don’t think this one incident is all that pivotal. Lawsuits against police departments and municipal governments in general, have always been a big business in this country. Deep pockets attract that sort of thing. One more case of cops using what may or may not have been excessive force against a mob isn’t going to register all that much on the “world opinion” scale when journalists are being beheaded and a revanchist Russia is waging a not-so-covert war against a neighbor. And even if it did, I’m doubtful the average American is going to writhe in shame over what they’re saying about us in Portugal.

On a more basic level, I don't think the average cop who feels rightly or wrongly under threat is going to restrain his response out of worry over the might and power of the twitterverse.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 2:50pm

I don’t think this one incident is all that pivotal. Lawsuits against police departments and municipal governments in general, have always been a big business in this country. Deep pockets attract that sort of thing. One more case of cops using what may or may not have been excessive force against a mob isn’t going to register all that much on the “world opinion” scale when journalists are being beheaded and a revanchist Russia is waging a not-so-covert war against a neighbor. And even if it did, I’m doubtful the average American is going to writhe in shame over what they’re saying about us in Portugal.

On a more basic level, I don't think the average cop who feels rightly or wrongly under threat is going to restrain his response out of worry over the might and power of the twitterverse.I'm not saying I disagree with you entirely per se - but I do see this incident as being pivotal as there is awareness now in what remains of middle class America of the heavy handedness of the police and of the militarization of the police and how downright terrifying that can be. Also - going forward people will not hesitate to use social media against the police and since so much of the world dislikes America to begin with, this can have an impact both economically and reputation-wise. I think it already has in this case to be honest. And then if there is no indictment in this case - heaven help us if places like Ferguson explode and if this behavior spreads out into other Ferguson-like areas across the US. People are angry and fed up where I live and I can see this exploding very easily - but maybe this is necessary for basic human rights and positive social change? And I'm very pleased to think of all the lawsuits coming down the pike in Ferguson - I really do believe that people will be suing the police and using social media against the police more and more in the future. It's about time is all I can say. Long, long, long overdue. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 2:53pm

I wondered how you were counting "generations" since I figured 1=20 years and that ticking clock rang a few years ago. about 2005. Notice that nothing has changed. Derrick Jensen is just one more pontificating blowhard.

There is institutionalized racism in this country, and in all countries. It's sad and unfortunate that dark skin=more distrust and dislike heaped upon people. Of course, it's not just skin color in the U.S., it's a whole culture of values and behaviors that the underclass cling to, and that cause disrespect/fear/distrust/ and that does not serve them well, at least if they aspire to secure a stable economic place in our society. Is it worse in the U.S? It's worse here than in some places. It's better here than in some places. And it's worse/better here in the U.S. depending upon region. But "women are the n.i.g.g.e.r.s of the world" according to famed philosophers* so African Americans do not have the market cornered on victim-hood.

Now that the looting and rioting is over for the moment in my metro area, the airwaves, print media and tv are overwhelmed with racism discussions, calls for race discussion, and planning for discussion of race.

Yawn, I think I will avoid "The Conversation" since I've been hearing this stuff for 25 years and it bores me. At one time I was open and willing to participate, having been well trained up by educated liberal parents who lived in a lily white state in a white suburb (we had one African American in my class of 240 students and he was elected class President. His father was a physician. He was pretty suburban) then I moved to the 'hood and got real about criminals and the po-lice here.

In my neighborhood the po-lice are on my side, no questions, it is clear.We know our beat cop by name, DH regularly calls him (just called him this week in fact about a door nob theft) and we strive toward good relations with the police department. We take up collections for him, we attend Guns And Hoses each year and/or donate (fundraiser fo Backstoppers) and we furnish the police substation with food and drink. We cultivate the presence of police here because they keep the bad guys at bay.

*yoko and john lennonIL, I'm really stunned that you would know your beat cop by name. Wow. I don't think anyone in my neighborhood does. I certainly don't. I've distrusted the police for years as I've said and with all the Hispanics in my neighborhood being afraid of the police - it doesn't make for positive interactions with the police. A positive police interaction for me at this point would be no interaction whatsoever. Rob

Packy

8-28-14, 3:17pm

Only a very naïve Scotsman(or "Eddie", here) would stop a cop and ask for directions, or just to introduce themselves--unless they like the idea that there's a VERY good chance they will be asked to furnish an ID in the form of a valid drivers license, a current proof of auto insurance card, and wait while the officer checks to see if your license plate number is on the hot sheet, or are one of the tens of thousands of citizens who have outstanding warrant(s)from Felonies to minor infractions like failure to appear for a dog at large citation on an afternoon when you were required to work. It's how they catch a good number of them/us. Oh, how about that taillight out? Gotcha. Y'ain't been drinkin' this evenin' have ya? Gotcha. Do you mind if we take a look inside your car? Avoid the po-lice the best you can. Saying you'll stay out of trouble if you don't do anything wrong is glib reasoning/ circular logic, because everyone does something wrong at one point or another. I always get stopped & checked at roadblocks and stuff, while the cops wave Mama and her kids in the huge consumer minivan on through. But Mr Cop keeps his hand on his 9mm at all times when interacting with a Scotsman like Me. See?

bae

8-28-14, 3:40pm

IL, I'm really stunned that you would know your beat cop by name. Wow. I don't think anyone in my neighborhood does. I certainly don't.

Pretty much everyone in my community knows every deputy on duty here by name, and the Sheriff. The deputies live in the community, they play in community bands or on sports teams or act in plays or volunteer for the fire department in their spare time. Their kids go to the same schools as everybody else's, they shop at the same stores, they eat at the same restaurants, etc. etc.

The only people here who fear to interact with the officers are the meth cookers, drug smugglers and dealers, predatory sex offenders and the violent scum. But I'll tell you, the officers provide a more civilized way of dealing with the scum here than what would occur if we had no police presence, and real "community policing" - there'd be a great crab harvest next year, and no scum :-)

Packy

8-28-14, 4:07pm

It (Orcas)sounds sure like a good place for Iris to relocate! They prolly could use a very conservative lirrrran, there.

CathyA

8-28-14, 4:20pm

Bae's community is quite different from some inner-city places. I don't know our Sheriff's deputies by name here, but I could if I wanted to. I just don't see them enough........fortunately! (Only when crazy stray dogs come around!) My interactions with them have always been good.......as I believe most people feel around here. I think a lot has to do with the stress they do or don't encounter with bad people on a regular basis. They're only human too.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 4:23pm

Pretty much everyone in my community knows every deputy on duty here by name, and the Sheriff. The deputies live in the community, they play in community bands or on sports teams or act in plays or volunteer for the fire department in their spare time. Their kids go to the same schools as everybody else's, they shop at the same stores, they eat at the same restaurants, etc. etc.

The only people here who fear to interact with the officers are the meth cookers, drug smugglers and dealers, predatory sex offenders and the violent scum. But I'll tell you, the officers provide a more civilized way of dealing with the scum here than what would occur if we had no police presence, and real "community policing" - there'd be a great crab harvest next year, and no scum :-)I'm glad there is a place somewhere in the US where the police have good relations with law abiding citizens. It is not here where I live in Phoenix, though I suspect (though have no proof) that if you were to go North a few miles from where I live there would be less fear and distrust of the police. I can say when I went to college in Flagstaff years ago - late 1980's - same thing, distrust of the police all around. When I lived in Portland, though, I didn't sense anywhere near the level of hostility and distrust towards the police but at the time Portland, OR was 86% white, and this was an in the city limits statistic. I'm of the opinion this may have something to do with that. Rob

LDAHL

8-28-14, 4:23pm

I'm not saying I disagree with you entirely per se - but I do see this incident as being pivotal as there is awareness now in what remains of middle class America of the heavy handedness of the police and of the militarization of the police and how downright terrifying that can be. Also - going forward people will not hesitate to use social media against the police and since so much of the world dislikes America to begin with, this can have an impact both economically and reputation-wise. I think it already has in this case to be honest. And then if there is no indictment in this case - heaven help us if places like Ferguson explode and if this behavior spreads out into other Ferguson-like areas across the US. People are angry and fed up where I live and I can see this exploding very easily - but maybe this is necessary for basic human rights and positive social change? And I'm very pleased to think of all the lawsuits coming down the pike in Ferguson - I really do believe that people will be suing the police and using social media against the police more and more in the future. It's about time is all I can say. Long, long, long overdue. Rob

I guess I see social media as less of an ultimate weapon and more as just so much technologically enhanced gossip. And even if it were not, I see attitudes hardening more than changing. I would be fairly surprised if people were still talking about this situation a year from now.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 4:28pm

I guess I see social media as less of an ultimate weapon and more as just so much technologically enhanced gossip. And even if it were not, I see attitudes hardening more than changing. I would be fairly surprised if people were still talking about this situation a year from now.I'm of the opinion that this will still be on the radar screen a year from now, provided there is no indictment of the officer. I take this stance due to my belief that what will happen if there is no indictment is going to shock and awe a great deal of what is left of middle America and above. Funny thing is my attitude - if this happens - will only be surprise that it didn't happen sooner as I understand what leads to such things happening. Whether or not it is right is irrelevant to me in the sense that I understand what leads to such situations and I also understand that some changes need to be made or this is going to continue. Rob

LDAHL

8-28-14, 4:40pm

I'm of the opinion that this will still be on the radar screen a year from now, provided there is no indictment of the officer. I take this stance due to my belief that what will happen if there is no indictment is going to shock and awe a great deal of what is left of middle America and above. Funny thing is my attitude - if this happens - will only be surprise that it didn't happen sooner as I understand what leads to such things happening. Whether or not it is right is irrelevant to me in the sense that I understand what leads to such situations and I also understand that some changes need to be made or this is going to continue. Rob

What makes this particular incident different from so many that have come before? If prosecutors lack sufficient evidence to indict this guy, they should not indict him. Hopefully we have not degenerated to the point where the threat of mob violence is a determining factor.

bae

8-28-14, 4:43pm

I take this stance due to my belief that what will happen if there is no indictment is going to shock and awe a great deal of what is left of middle America and above. Funny thing is my attitude - if this happens - will only be surprise that it didn't happen sooner as I understand what leads to such things happening.

Yes yes, if they don't throw the officer to the mob, the cities will burn. Should be fun times, that'll show The Man!

I wonder if Twitter will be up to the load?

jp1

8-28-14, 4:47pm

But isn't that sort of what's happening? The parents of these violent young adults probably have 4-6 other children at home, being raised to turn out the same. While the more educated/"civilized", couples are choosing not to have children.

What you're describing is not genetics, it's culture. And frankly, if you took away all the low level drug offenses I suspect you'd find that a large majority of these kids don't end up in trouble with the law. I recall reading an article written by a guy from Europe that wound up in the Superdome during Katrina. Since there was no "authority" there to charge and manage the situation he said that the head drug dealers from the neighborhood took charge of the situation. They arranged people to go get provisions from stores like the Walgreens across the street, made sure that the mothers with infants had diapers and formula, that everyone had water, etc. In other words they acted like one would expect community leaders to act in a crisis situation. When I read that I had to wonder whether these individuals would be any different from you and me if they had been fortunate enough to have been raised in stable middle class homes with the opportunities that I have been fortunate enough to have. Maybe they only ended up as drug dealers because they didn't have, or at least didn't perceive that they had, any better opportunities.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 5:14pm

What you're describing is not genetics, it's culture. And frankly, if you took away all the low level drug offenses I suspect you'd find that a large majority of these kids don't end up in trouble with the law. I recall reading an article written by a guy from Europe that wound up in the Superdome during Katrina. Since there was no "authority" there to charge and manage the situation he said that the head drug dealers from the neighborhood took charge of the situation. They arranged people to go get provisions from stores like the Walgreens across the street, made sure that the mothers with infants had diapers and formula, that everyone had water, etc. In other words they acted like one would expect community leaders to act in a crisis situation. When I read that I had to wonder whether these individuals would be any different from you and me if they had been fortunate enough to have been raised in stable middle class homes with the opportunities that I have been fortunate enough to have. Maybe they only ended up as drug dealers because they didn't have, or at least didn't perceive that they had, any better opportunities.I agree with you 100%. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 5:19pm

What makes this particular incident different from so many that have come before? If prosecutors lack sufficient evidence to indict this guy, they should not indict him. Hopefully we have not degenerated to the point where the threat of mob violence is a determining factor.What makes this different is the level of awareness both domestically and internationally of police heavy handedness and police militarization. We really are the laughing stock of the developed world at the moment. And people who have not been exposed to the police and how they can be now have been. There is an awareness out there that this is just not right - many people out there are thinking this - and an awareness I believe of a need for change. Intense scrutiny is going to be applied to the police going forward and I'm grateful now for social media and the role it can play in leveling and flattening the power of the police. A wonderful thing indeed. Rob

CathyA

8-28-14, 5:33pm

Well, it's hard to not make generalizations when a certain type of person is murdering/robbing someone in our nearby city nearly every single night. I keep hoping they'll just kill themselves off.
So Rob.....how would that work, if the community policed themselves? Are you saying that good citizens would then take care of the bad guys themselves, and all would be good? But if they're too afraid to do it now, why would that change?

dmc

8-28-14, 5:36pm

So Rob, what do you do if someone is breaking into your home? Do you call the police, or alert social media, or call a lawyer?

dmc

8-28-14, 6:01pm

Also I have known a few of the local officers when I lived in St. Charles Co. They were always friendly and I appreciated the work that they do. Now that I have moved I haven't met any local officers, but I have played golf with a former Miami detective and another from New York. Great guys and have some good stories to tell.

i did some research and chose this location due to the lack of crime, they pretty much roll up the streets at 10:00. The big crime is people not cleaning up after their dogs. I've seen the code enforcement guy driving around more than the police.

i feel sorry for the business owners who had their stores looted and burned, and the decent people of that area who will have an even harder time leaving the area as no one will want to live there. While I respect IL for wanting to stay in her home, I don't get it.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 6:03pm

So Rob, what do you do if someone is breaking into your home? Do you call the police, or alert social media, or call a lawyer?If someone breaks into my home, I hopefully can leave if I am there. I own very little worth stealing anyhow and it's not worth my life to protect that which is worth stealing. I would call the police once I came back home but honestly, only to file an insurance report as I realize I'd never see anything that was stolen again. The police would only give me paperwork that the insurance company requires to file a claim. It would be very stressful to deal with the police but I'd have to, like it or not, to file a claim. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 7:25pm

OK then.....If anyone is interested, please go to yahoo.com news. There you can find a story to the effect that the police in Missouri are being sued for $40 Million dollars due to treating citizens as if war combatants - I understand there are several folks filing this one lawsuit for $40 Million. Personally, as far as sending a message to the police and punishing via financial loss, I think they are asking for too little. We'll see if this goes to court or if the city's insurance company handles it hush hush out of court with the provision that no one talk about it but I'd like to see a larger settlement to send a message to both the police and to civilians everywhere. Everyday people stand up and effect change via financial loss, and police - get your act together as you are no longer going to enjoy being above the law. So so so long overdue. I'm hoping for many many many more similar lawsuits. Rob

PS Please understand that this lawsuit here stems from police behavior AFTER the shooting and it not directly about the actual shooting of Michael Brown or the officer involved. I'm also looking forward to lawsuits from two journalists who were assaulted at the Ferguson McDonald's and others who were pushed, shoved, teargassed, and threatened. These are educated people who know the dollar value of such behavior by the police - bring the lawsuits on!

dmc

8-28-14, 7:46pm

OK then.....If anyone is interested, please go to yahoo.com news. There you can find a story to the effect that the police in Missouri are being sued for $40 Million dollars due to treating citizens as if war combatants - I understand there are several folks filing this one lawsuit for $40 Million. Personally, as far as sending a message to the police and punishing via financial loss, I think they are asking for too little. We'll see if this goes to court or if the city's insurance company handles it hush hush out of court with the provision that no one talk about it but I'd like to see a larger settlement to send a message to both the police and to civilians everywhere. Everyday people stand up and effect change via financial loss, and police - get your act together as you are no longer going to enjoy being above the law. So so so long overdue. I'm hoping for many many many more similar lawsuits. Rob

PS Please understand that this lawsuit here stems from police behavior AFTER the shooting and it not directly about the actual shooting or Michael Brown or the officer involved. I'm also looking forward to lawsuits from two journalists who were assaulted at the Ferguson McDonald's and others who were pushed, shoved, teargassed, and threatened. These are educated people who know the dollar value of such behavior by the police - bring the lawsuits on!

yea, that will show the citizens of Ferguson. Bankrupt the town, fire all the police. I'm sure the town will prosper under mob rule.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 7:57pm

yea, that will show the citizens of Ferguson. Bankrupt the town, fire all the police. I'm sure the town will prosper under mob rule.I'm thinking the town will end out bankrupted, yes, and that is sad but inevitable. I blame the police for their heavy handedness and I think it will be interesting to see the end results of this suit and how knows how many more will be coming. You can't do heavy handedness in a racially charged environment anymore, social media has put an end to that and the police need to find a way to accept that bitter pill and swallow it. Also, the police are going to have to understand that the equation has changed - behave as if you are above the law or even be perceived as doing such - and face consequences. Overall, I consider this a potential human rights victory but I do agree it sucks that Ferguson will quite likely be bankrupted. Rob

bae

8-28-14, 8:18pm

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 8:38pm

So, bankrupt the town, roll up the sidewalks, dismiss police and firefighters and emergency medical, shut off the water and sewers, turn off the traffic lights, after the taxpayers/residents of the city have paid out every last dime they can to the settlement. That'll sure show the people who live there how to vote next time!

Sounds like a great plan, almost like Detroit! Then once the place is mostly abandoned and the buildings decay, the survivors can build gardens amongst the ruins.

http://emmock.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/20080323142820sarajevo_19-3-1996_war.jpg

And live happily ever after!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_L1bFAtLHxU8/TNi6kNUahHI/AAAAAAAAASA/UWIvEbpCwoY/s1600/Time+Machine+%231.jpgYes the first pic could very well be the future of Ferguson. Once again, I blame the police - there is no excuse for their behavior after the shooting. None whatsoever. There never was any excuse for police heavy handedness to begin with, but what I find particularly irksome re the Ferguson Police - the marked lack of common sense they showed in their actions in the social media age. It was as if they had no clue that any heavy handedness on their part would go viral in mere minutes - and once it did, they show an extreme lack of common sense in continuing their excessive behavior. I don't see much of a positive future for Ferguson at the moment, and I'd love to be wrong on this, I really would - but I definitely blame the police. Their behavior is what may end out ultimately destroying Ferguson for keeps. Rob

dmc

8-28-14, 9:02pm

dmc

8-28-14, 9:05pm

The first pic already looks like much of North St. Louis now. The thugs have already taken over much of that. You should go there and visit.

Alan

8-28-14, 9:10pm

.... but I definitely blame the police. Their behavior is what may end out ultimately destroying Ferguson for keeps. RobI think you've got it exactly wrong. If Ferguson is destroyed it will be the result of looters and rioters inflamed by your much admired social media.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 9:15pm

I think you've got it exactly wrong. If Ferguson is destroyed it will be the result of looters and rioters inflamed by your much admired social media. I guess we just agree to disagree here. I will admit that the looters and rioters did not help the situation at all. Granted. Still, the police heavy handedness in such a racially charged environment was extremely inflammatory and the police need to be called on it and face the music (aka suffer consequences). I'd also like to make it clear that at the moment I am talking of police behavior AFTER the shooting death of Michael Brown. The actual shooting death - that's a whole other unpleasant can of worms and if there is no indictment, I don't think shock and awe is enough to describe how Middle America will feel/react to what may happen in Ferguson and other racially charged environments nationwide. Whatever happens, this is not going to be pretty. Rob

Packy

8-28-14, 9:19pm

I read MSN "news" online. It is very similar to checkout counter tabloid reading. Anyway, there is the story about the 40 million suit against Ferguson, and another story along side it about the forced circumcisions being performed over there in Kenya. According to the story, no anesthesia is used, and one case resulted in waaay tooo much tissue being removed. Yow. From that perspective, the citizens of Ferguson ought to appreciate the environment and standard of living they've got, instead tearing it apart. Things can always get worse; just look at Dee-troit and Gary, Indiana, and---Kenya.

gimmethesimplelife

8-28-14, 9:20pm

So you were ok with the looting and rioters assaulting the Police? What your really upset about is the police lack of concern over social medias tweets while they are having bricks thrown at them.

I'm sure those chanting "Kill the Police" were just out having a good time and meant nothing by it.Not all the protestors were looting and rioting and peaceful protestors were subject to assault and teargas regardless of their innocence and compliance with the law. In my world that equals instant lawsuit - and not just for the chance to start my life over but to encourage the next person to sue and to flatten those who believe they are above the law. My chief motivation would be that latter in this case by far. Rob

PS And if I didn't sue? I'd be guilty of this behavior too from the standpoint of letting them get away with it and not calling them on it. Based on the fact that I have witnessed police brutality before, I would not want to live with this. The police have not earned my having to live with such. (this of course assumes I was in Ferguson and had experienced this police behavior, to be clear)

Something else I came back to add : Right after the shooting death, the first few days of protesting, peaceful protestors marched down West Florrisant Avenue in Ferguson - those complying with the law and not rioting or looting - to find themselves faced with militarized police with military rifles drawn on them. No excuse there period. To me every one who endured this should be getting a large settlement, too.