View Full Version : Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?
I know your south of The trouble but how are things in your part of town?
iris lilies
8-13-14, 8:50pm
I know your south of The trouble but how are things in your part of town?
A little bit of the ch*t is hitting here although you won't hear it on the news.
Large groups of people are driving up to stores all over town, breaking windows, and looting in a planned activity. It happened at the gas mart 6 blocks from my house. It's happening elsewhere. Even though the nucleus of the riots is miles away in Ferguson, we are getting fall out from that mess.
gimmethesimplelife
8-13-14, 10:52pm
IL, here's wishes that you and yours remain safe and are not directly affected by what's going on in SL. Horrible. The only time I've ever experienced such is when I lived in Portland, OR, during the Rodney King thing. There was some limited window smashing and looting in downtown Portland and I worked downtown at the time so I passed by some broken windows on my way to work. Does not strike me as pleasant to deal with and I have the feeling what happened out your way may not be dying down soon.....esp. depending on the race of the police officer involved and possible perceptions based on this. Stay safe! Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-13-14, 11:13pm
Ouch. Apparently the police in Fergusson arrested and assaulted two journalists who were sitting in a McDonald's, there in Ferguson to cover the story. NOT GOOD. From what I am reading online a SWAT team was sent in and what a bad PR move if all the above is true.....Will this town even have a police department in existence after the lawsuit settlement? Based on what has leaked online so far, I don't think there's ever been enough money printed to provide an equitable settlement. Very scary. Stay safe IL......Rob
Came back to provide a link - www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/reporters and the links not working.....google if interested.
iris lilies
8-13-14, 11:49pm
IL, here's wishes that you and yours remain safe and are not directly affected by what's going on in SL. Horrible. The only time I've ever experienced such is when I lived in Portland, OR, during the Rodney King thing. There was some limited window smashing and looting in downtown Portland and I worked downtown at the time so I passed by some broken windows on my way to work. Does not strike me as pleasant to deal with and I have the feeling what happened out your way may not be dying down soon.....esp. depending on the race of the police officer involved and possible perceptions based on this. Stay safe! Rob
The police officer is white, no real secret there.
iris lilies
8-14-14, 12:07am
Ouch. Apparently the police in Fergusson arrested and assaulted two journalists who were sitting in a McDonald's, there in Ferguson to cover the story. NOT GOOD. From what I am reading online a SWAT team was sent in and what a bad PR move if all the above is true.....Will this town even have a police department in existence after the lawsuit settlement? Based on what has leaked online so far, I don't think there's ever been enough money printed to provide an equitable settlement. Very scary. Stay safe IL......Rob
Came back to provide a link - www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/reporters (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/reporters) and the links not working.....google if interested.
Oh for god's sake, the cops arrested reporters from HuffPo and Washington Post. Stupid, and just what HuffPo et al will love, this will puff them up no end. Insanity. Earlier this evening the police asked news media to leave the area before dark because they want the crowds to disburse at night and the cameras are, of course, what everyone loves. When I heard that, I commented to DH "how can they enforce that? Especially with that crowd, the 'I know my rights' 4th estate."
I had just heard the press conference given by St. Louis County Police chief and thought he did a very good job and answered many questions squarely and fairly. He's technically not the chief of police in Fergusson, but County policemen and city policemen and state policemen are all there, helping out.
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 1:20am
The police officer is white, no real secret there.Sorry, I didn't know this fact had been released. Last I knew it had not yet been disclosed. Rob
Oh for god's sake, the cops arrested reporters ....
I suppose the exact circumstances are probably important.
Earlier in the year I was working a big fire. Hazmat and fuels were involved. We were managing a situation that if it started to turn on us was going to require a 1/2 mile evacuation distance. Anyone not directly operating was rehabbing or staging in a protected bunker-like area nearby.
I was sent out because a reporter, for the second time, had snuck past the barrier tape and was coming up on the scene to take photos.
I approached her, said "M'am, you need to move well back, a few hundred yards to that tape..."
"No, I'm with the press, you can't make me..."
"M'am, they sent me out here because if that tank blows over there, with my suit here and the extra armor, I *might* live. You will be a grease spot. The Sheriff won't come down here to grab you because he's smart enough to stay behind the line, but I *will* drag you up there if need be. Life and safety...."
Freedom of the press doesn't trump everything else.
Don't know what the circumstances are in the particular case of these events.
iris lilies
8-14-14, 1:45am
Sorry, I didn't know this fact had been released. Last I knew it had not yet been disclosed. Rob Witness saw the cop. His name has not been released.
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 1:47am
Oh for god's sake, the cops arrested reporters from HuffPo and Washington Post. Stupid, and just what HuffPo et al will love, this will puff them up no end. Insanity. Earlier this evening the police asked news media to leave the area before dark because they want the crowds to disburse at night and the cameras are, of course, what everyone loves. When I heard that, I commented to DH "how can they enforce that? Especially with that crowd, the 'I know my rights' 4th estate."
I had just heard the press conference given by St. Louis County Police chief and thought he did a very good job and answered many questions squarely and fairly. He's technically not the chief of police in Fergusson, but County policemen and city policemen and state policemen are all there, helping out.My problem is not so much with the arrest actually but with the use of excessive force and the witnesses to this.....Excessive force to me equals huge lawsuits and these reporters are probably well connected being from the Huffington and Washington Posts.....Were I the police chief I'd be with the city attorney right now trying to piece together an out of court settlement - but I also believe Bae has a point. The authorities do have the right to state their case and it would be great if more witnesses would step forward, perhaps on social media. We don't know all the facts just yet as Bae has said. It is even possible that I may end out changing my mind on this - though from what I'm seeing at the moment, not happening. The problem for Ferguson is how many people there would agree with me and how far will they go? And will the police use excessive force again - don't they get that any move they make at this point will go viral due to the Internet? I'm not seeing that level of basic common sense on their part here at all. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 1:49am
Witness saw the cop. His name has not been released.Thanks for the update here. I read that the cop involved has been placed on administrative leave - with or without pay I don't know. But yup, no name out there just yet. Rob
We don't know all the facts just yet as Bae has said.
In our system of justice, how are "facts" in these circumstances determined?
iris lilies
8-14-14, 1:53am
My problem is not so much with the arrest actually but with the use of excessive force and the witnesses to this.....Excessive force to me equals huge lawsuits and these reporters are probably well connected being from the Huffington and Washington Posts.....Were I the police chief I'd be with the city attorney right now trying to piece together an out of court settlement - but I also believe Bae has a point. The authorities do have the right to state their case and it would be great if more witnesses would step forward, perhaps on social media. We don't know all the facts just yet as Bae has said. It is even possible that I may end out changing my mind on this - though from what I'm seeing at the moment, not happening. The problem for Ferguson is how many people there would agree with me and how far will they go? And will the police use excessive force again - don't they get that any move they make at this point will go viral due to the Internet? I'm not seeing that level of basic common sense on their part here at all. Rob
The Huff Po reporter and his buddy from the Washington Post will not let this lie, and they are already crying "excessive force."
It's impossible to know if excessive force is being used. Last night a police officer shot a man in the riot area, a man who pulled a gun on him. That doesn't seem excessive to me. A local news reporter is whining because she got teargas in her face, as are some residents who were standing on their front porch. Well yeah, the wind blows it your way, you are going to get some in your face. But "being teargassed on my front porch" is now a story. Yet doesn't sound excessive to me.
But the facts will come out.
edited to make sense
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 2:00am
It's impossible to know, but it doesn't sound like the Huff Po reporter and his buddy from the Washington Post will let this lie, and they are already crying "excessive force."
It's impossible to know is excessive force is being used. Last night a police officer shot a man in the riot area, a man who pulled a gun on him. That doesn't seem excessive to me. A local news reporter is whining because she got teargas in her face, as are some residents who were standing on their front porch. Well yeah, the wind blows it your way, you are going to get some in your face. But "being teargassed on my front porch" is now a story.
But the facts will come out.Admittedly, I was not there. I am only going on what I am reading online and yes where I tend to go for my news does have a liberal slant. Based on what I have read, I'd better not get on that jury lol! To me so far it is clear cut excessive force - Huffpost went so far as to call it "assault". There is a naïve part of me that wants to believe the police are not that stupid if such took place.....don't they know they are in effect creating a dialing for dollars/never have to work again scenario by such actions? But I would still agree we need more people to come forward and more of both sides of the story. Who knows, maybe someone has all this captured on smartphone video and is holding out for maximum dollar for it? Wouldn't surprise me at all.
My overall take is that this situation outside St Louis is not going to die down soon - it's like a powderkeg and any little thing could set it off. Rob
Came back to add two things - A. Good for them for not letting it lie and die quietly, and B. Throwing someone against a countertop at a fast food restaurant because they did not pack up and leave fast enough in an area that is this unstable - were it me, I'd see a new life in Canada and a nice condo in Vancouver in my future after the drawn out lawsuit settlement. But this is just me. My real point here - most would sue these days I believe. I would feel morally compelled to beyond the money as if I chose not to, this is just the same as saying it's OK for the police to behave this way again in the next similar situation. I would not want to live with that. Rob
Came back to further add - your first example? I don't believe it's excessive force for a cop to shoot someone who pulls a gun on him/her. But teargassed on your front porch? I don't know.....that to me is excessive if there was no clear cut warning to vacate as teargas was being used and also a warning of how much of an area the teargas would impact. I'm going to vote excessive on your second example. Rob
Maybe it would be better if the police just left the area. See what happens then.
Regarding the initial shooting incident, seems like cops all over are over-reacting in many cases. We have had multiple incidents in our city of cops shooting and or killing young black men - justified or not. Most often, the city has to settle via lawsuit to the victim's family but the episodes just keep happening. We just don't have a very large African-American population here to rise up and protest but if these things keep happening...
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 10:59am
Regarding the initial shooting incident, seems like cops all over are over-reacting in many cases. We have had multiple incidents in our city of cops shooting and or killing young black men - justified or not. Most often, the city has to settle via lawsuit to the victim's family but the episodes just keep happening. We just don't have a very large African-American population here to rise up and protest but if these things keep happening...It really does seem to me that the police are growing more and more out of control. Witness the publicity about the recent police killings in Albuquerque, for example. In Phoenix this type of police hostility seems to be directed more towards Hispanics, but it had not reached these kinds of levels, knock on wood. Given that I live in a lower income Hispanic area, I know when I see a police car coming these days I feel fear and instant distrust. I doubt at this point this will ever go away. I do believe there must be some good cops out there - the problem is that more and more our rights have been eroded away and it seems this has attracted a different kind of police officer and encouraged over the top police behaviors. I really don't see how what is going on in Ferguson is much different from what is going on in Caracas, though in Venezuela the numbers of dead are much higher as are the cases of police harassment. But the basis have third world stamped all over them to me. Rob
iris lily
8-14-14, 12:15pm
... were it me, I'd see a new life in Canada and a nice condo in Vancouver in my future after the drawn out lawsuit settlement.
Oy vey.
My real point here - most would sue these days I believe. I would feel morally compelled to beyond the money as if I chose not to, this is just the same as saying it's OK for the police to behave this way again in the next similar situation. I would not want to live with that. Rob
Well, at least your life would finally be worth something in Amerikkka, financed again and as always by the taxpayers. Score!
Curious to know why you'd skip off to Vancouver rather than the beloved Mexico, but I guess that's a different thread.
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 12:32pm
Oy vey.
Well, at least your life would finally be worth something in Amerikkka, financed again and as always by the taxpayers. Score!
Curious to know why you'd skip off to Vancouver rather than the beloved Mexico, but I guess that's a different thread.Hi IL...couple of questions for you......I don't understand the "financed by the taxpayers" line - at least in the sense of if the police were not breaking the law there would be no possibility of a huge settlement. Cause and effect here. Treat me like those reporters were treated, break the law like that, I or anyone else would be a FOOL not to sue and also for reasons beyond mere money. Why Canada you ask? Canada used to have an immigration program whereby if you had a lot of money - the kind of money such a lawsuit could generate - they'd let you in as an investor class - I forget the name of the immigration class but it had to do with your having lots of resources. Shatter my rights like that, you can't expect everyone to stay in the United States after that. Many will, true, but some will take the money and run and try their luck elsewhere. What's so wrong about that? If the police hadn't of done what it seems they had done, once again the lawsuit to finance this would not be taking place. I'd be pointing the finger at the cops for causing situations where people can realistically cash in.
Why the free pass for the cops but not for those seeking settlements based on usage of excessive force? Why not use such lawsuits as a way to keep the police in line and teach others that litigation is perhaps a good way to accomplish this - provided it's successful. It's not the fault of the reporters yesterday in my book that the police went far far far over the line.....if there's no lawsuit, what's to stop them from going even further over the line next time, and if any of us were in that situation and did not go for the settlement, wouldn't WE also be partly guilty for condoning this police behavior via non-action? The police here are really going too far, and I don't see any other means to reign it in other than litigation. Rob
Came back to add - I really don't like it that Obama hasn't really tried to handle this one yet.....This is such a powderkeg and what is our President doing about it at the moment? Rob
Came back to add further - apparently the plot seems to be thickening. It seems as if a Democratic State Senator in Missouri named Maria Chapelle Nadal was among those gassed recently and bless her, she's had no issues at all it seems with taking it to the press and with being critical of police response in Ferguson. Points she's making include that she was peaceful and that she's not a troublemaker - she's a state Senator. Also I'm reading that there's mounting pressure to release the name of the officer involved in the first incident and the authorities refuse to cave. Ouch. Not very bright on their part - anything could set this powder keg off and there seem to be those very angry that the name has not yet been released.....why do the police insist on ratcheting up the tension? What's in it for them, realistically? Rob
Rob - Vancouver, a couple years ago when I stepped out of a concert:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/638363/phpNG25fEriot1.jpg
http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/06/16/1226076/491769-vancouver-riots.jpg
You might want to try Mexico, I hear the police there are very friendly and honest.
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 1:20pm
Rob - Vancouver, a couple years ago when I stepped out of a concert:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/638363/phpNG25fEriot1.jpg
http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/06/16/1226076/491769-vancouver-riots.jpg
You might want to try Mexico, I hear the police there are very friendly and honest.This did happen in Vancouver, yes. I remember hearing about this as a matter of fact. Canada is not a rose garden these days either but overall has less crime and less violence than the US. But due to globalization it has it's issues, too, I won't deny that. Rob
Maybe the increasingly widespread out of control behavior of uniformed officers--they were/are so bad in Seattle they were cited by the DOJ a couple of years back--demonstrates a testing of the waters. If their brutality toward the weakest among us goes generally unremarked, they may step it up. And--if we're not there already--we'll all be living in a police state.
And--if we're not there already--we'll all be living in a police state.
I don't think there are enough police for that. Or budget to hire them.
I don't think there are enough police for that. Or budget to hire them.
You may have a point. We can only hope.
You may have a point. We can only hope.
Hope is not a plan :-)
And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
That's why people younger than I are out in the streets, bae. I took my turn. Bread and circuses may occupy the rest.
I hope you're right about scale and budgets--but that problem could be overcome by imposing martial law.
Good God, I'm careening into paranoia... :sick:
I hope you're right about scale and budgets--but that problem could be overcome by imposing martial law.
Doubtful.
Read Rehnquist's book on the topic:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41us6UHtrHL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
Martial law on any scale in this country would be a non-starter, if you do a little math. Look at how much effort we have spent in "subduing" Afghanistan, a country about the size of Montana+Wyoming, using a military that has a bigger budget than almost the entire rest of the planet combined....
Now imagine trying to do that in the US, which has 10x the population, a lot more area, and, oh, say a 100 million armed citizens on a slow day, and about 10 million who take to the field during deer season. A country in which almost every first responder since 9/11 has been trained as a HAZMAT operator, and knows how to wipe out entire city blocks with relatively little effort.
There's not a military on the planet that could impose martial law on this country against the will of the citizens.
ApatheticNoMore
8-14-14, 4:42pm
Well if someone wants to propose a definition of a police state, then one could say yes this is true, and no that isn't, and yes this definition corresponds to common usage whatever that is etc..
Otherwise:
"Because there are different political perspectives as to what an appropriate balance is between individual freedom and national security, there are no definitive objective standards to determine whether the term "police state" applies to a particular nation at any given point in time. Thus, it is difficult to evaluate objectively the truth of allegations that a nation is, or is not becoming, a police state"
[wikipedia]
Because I really think it's a continuum. And a lot of police intimidation can be acheieved without a cop on every corner (leveraged intimidation so to speak). It only needs to be enough to produce a certain amount of fear. And that's your degrees of police state. By the way these protestors are protesting despite having guns on armored vehicles pointing at them. A continuum by definition means there are worse and lesser degrees.
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 4:52pm
Well if someone wants to propose a definition of a police state, then one could say yes this is true, and no that isn't, and yes this definition corresponds to common usage whatever that is etc..
Otherwise:
"Because there are different political perspectives as to what an appropriate balance is between individual freedom and national security, there are no definitive objective standards to determine whether the term "police state" applies to a particular nation at any given point in time. Thus, it is difficult to evaluate objectively the truth of allegations that a nation is, or is not becoming, a police state"
[wikipedia]
Because I really think it's a continuum. And a lot of police intimidation can be acheieved without a cop on every corner (leveraged intimidation so to speak). It only needs to be enough to produce a certain amount of fear. And that's your degrees of police state. By the way these protestors are protesting despite having guns on armored vehicles pointing at them. A continuum by definition means there are worse and lesser degrees.The protesters in Ferguson just bumped up several notches in my respect-o-meter. Continuing to protest while government goons have their guns pointed on them from armored vehicles shows a great deal of courage to me. And conviction. And complete and utter disgust with the situation. One would think if the protestors are willing to continue even though their country thinks their lives are worth so little as to have guns trained on them while peacefully protesting - one would think those in power would get a clue. This is not going to just go away, and there are other communities this anger and resentment live in in the US that could easily go up like a tinder box too.....I am afraid that cooler heads are not going to prevail on this one, but time will tell. So far from what I've seen the police in that town need to be fired and denied their pensions - I know this will never happen but just imagine how such an action would strike terror into the heart of every US policeman/woman. Especially the being denied their pensions part. I don't know how this is all going to end but I'm hoping for better than we have seen so far. I'm also glad Obama emerged from vacation by the Massachusetts seashore and made a nice four minute speech. I agree with much of what he said but I, like many others, want to see some results, not just soothing words. Rob
DH was telling me that quite a bit of war time equipment has been sold to police departments - tanks, weapons, special ops equipment, etc - in the past few years. It's too bad that their original mission of protecting the populace seems to be morphing into something else.
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 4:55pm
Well if someone wants to propose a definition of a police state, then one could say yes this is true, and no that isn't, and yes this definition corresponds to common usage whatever that is etc..
Otherwise:
"Because there are different political perspectives as to what an appropriate balance is between individual freedom and national security, there are no definitive objective standards to determine whether the term "police state" applies to a particular nation at any given point in time. Thus, it is difficult to evaluate objectively the truth of allegations that a nation is, or is not becoming, a police state"
[wikipedia]
Because I really think it's a continuum. And a lot of police intimidation can be acheieved without a cop on every corner (leveraged intimidation so to speak). It only needs to be enough to produce a certain amount of fear. And that's your degrees of police state. By the way these protestors are protesting despite having guns on armored vehicles pointing at them. A continuum by definition means there are worse and lesser degrees.Interestingly enough the one city in the US where I felt the most like the US is truly a police state was Austin, TX, a city I very much like ironically. Not in the city of Austin but at the airport there - I've never known that TSA could be so rude and so sarcastic and intimidating and get away with it as part of their job description. Also I didn't like random people - including myself - being pulled out of line and asked what their travel plans are. Very creepy and very much not what I signed up for. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 4:57pm
DH was telling me that quite a bit of war time equipment has been sold to police departments - tanks, weapons, special ops equipment, etc - in the past few years. It's too bad that their original mission of protecting the populace seems to be morphing into something else.I've heard online that this equipment you refer to has been given police departments. Not sold but given. Whether or not this is true I don't know. Scary though if it is true. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 5:03pm
That's why people younger than I are out in the streets, bae. I took my turn. Bread and circuses may occupy the rest.
I hope you're right about scale and budgets--but that problem could be overcome by imposing martial law.
Good God, I'm careening into paranoia... :sick:It's kind of hard not to be slightly paranoid these days with some of the things that have been taking place. I guess we all have to just deal the best we can and go about our lives, what else can we do? I will say though that I'm 47 - and if this comes to Phoenix, I will hit the streets - as a non-violent protestor. On this one I'm very motivated to say the least. Rob
their original mission of protecting the populace seems to be morphing into something else.
Given the conduct of the protestors the mission is pretty much the same.
iris lilies
8-14-14, 7:42pm
Now it's a complete circus in Ferguson. Lewis Reed, President of the Board of aldermen of the city of St. Louis was arrested there last night. I have a lot of respect for Lewis, he was my own alderman for a few years. But pushing his mayorial agenda by making a big presence in that fray--ugh.
The police are getting piss poor leadership in this deal. Our city cheif of police thinks it's being badly handled and he's not sending men or resources.
I am so happy that someone initiated a thread about Ferguson, Zurra, located in the eastern part of the "We Mow State"! Lawn Care, and inhibiting vegetation from taking over--is the Official State Pastime. But, there are other forms of um, recreation. I thought I would have to open up a topic on the subject, but thanks for doing it! Anyway, isn't "Ferguson" a Scottish name? So, I assume it has a large Scottish-American population, residing there. I don't mean to stereotype, but those Scots--ha--they--wait--many of them-- like to "party hearty", and sometimes their exuberance can get out of hand. Of course--by no means ALL Scots---just enough of them to cause a problem, and draw attention to themselves. As soon as things "cool down"--literally and figuratively---heck-- I may venture over there, and check it out, and see about housing prices and so forth. Being part Scot myself, I might find it a great place to live. I'll be sure to let you know what I find out.
gimmethesimplelife
8-14-14, 10:04pm
Now it's a complete circus in Ferguson. Lewis Reed, President of the Board of aldermen of the city of St. Louis was arrested there last night. I have a lot of respect for Lewis, he was my own alderman for a few years. But pushing his mayorial agenda by making a big presence in that fray--ugh.
The police are getting piss poor leadership in this deal. Our city cheif of police thinks it's being badly handled and he's not sending men or resources.Agreed 100%. It is a circus of sorts. Just not a fun one you want to take kids to. And I think there's something to your statement that the police are getting poor leadership - maybe this is why they have acted this way, no real direction from the top down and having to make it up as they go along? I don't know but it sounds like it's possible. Rob
iris lilies
8-14-14, 10:14pm
Agreed 100%. It is a circus of sorts. Just not a fun one you want to take kids to. And I think there's something to your statement that the police are getting poor leadership - maybe this is why they have acted this way, no real direction from the top down and having to make it up as they go along? I don't know but it sounds like it's possible. Rob
I heard the press conference of the St. Louis County Poice chief who is kinda/sorta in charge jointly, with the Ferguson Police Chief, and he sounded very reasonable. He said "remember, none of us have ever worked a situation like this, we are inventing it as we go" and he said that he wasn't going to institute a curfew because those who don't honor laws aren't going to pay any attention anyway, the cops would still be facing lawlessness in the streets.
He wanted people to go home at night, and come back during the day, to protest. That was his definition of "peaceful protest." Nighttime protesting turned into a high percentage of rioters and lunacy.
At this point it's good that the Governor has stepped in to use state resources and give the police in Ferguson and St. Louis County and break, and perhaps better decision making.
iris lilies
8-14-14, 10:16pm
I am so happy that someone initiated a thread about Ferguson, Zurra, located in the eastern part of the "We Mow State"! Lawn Care, and inhibiting vegetation from taking over--is the Official State Pastime. But, there are other forms of um, recreation. I thought I would have to open up a topic on the subject, but thanks for doing it! Anyway, isn't "Ferguson" a Scottish name? So, I assume it has a large Scottish-American population, residing there. I don't mean to stereotype, but those Scots--ha--they--wait--many of them-- like to "party hearty", and sometimes their exuberance can get out of hand. Of course--by no means ALL Scots---just enough of them to cause a problem, and draw attention to themselves. As soon as things "cool down"--literally and figuratively---heck-- I may venture over there, and check it out, and see about housing prices and so forth. Being part Scot myself, I might find it a great place to live. I'll be sure to let you know what I find out.
But if Ferguson was full of drinking Scostmen, I'd likely be up there by now, partying with them. :)
Now that the Highway Patrol has taken over, Ferguson looks a lot less like Beirut. Now if professionals will take over the murder investigation, we might get something resolved. Which won't bring Michael Brown back, of course.
iris lilies
8-14-14, 10:38pm
Hi IL...couple of questions for you......I don't understand the "financed by the taxpayers" line - at least in the sense of if the police were not breaking the law there would be no possibility of a huge settlement. Cause and effect here. Treat me like those reporters were treated, break the law like that, I or anyone else would be a FOOL not to sue...
Or not.
Surely you can understand the costs that faux or punitive suits level in society? You are one to complain endlessly about medical costs in the U.S. Well buddy, medical lawsuit happy Americans have helped create those high medical costs. DH, on one of his several juries, heard a frivolous medical case and the plantiff got 0 even though he had carefully orchestrated his lawsuit to be heard in the city's courts where traditionally plantiffs are rewarded by juries, more so than out in the county. But the doctor had to defend himself and spent $$$ or did his insurance company, ca-ching ca-ching.
What are your protections when you've got a beef with a physician in Mexico?
WhyCanada you ask?... Shatter my rights like that, you can't expect everyone to stay in the United States after that. ..
With all the sincerity in the world, I want to assure you that I truly do not expect you to stay in the U.S. If you are here because of my expectations, you are released. Feel free to go right now!
...if there's no lawsuit, what's to stop them from going even further over the line next time, and if any of us were in that situation and did not go for the settlement, wouldn't WE also be partly guilty for condoning this police behavior via non-action?
Maybe yes, maybe no. Not everything has to be settled in court. But I agree that having this as a tool in society can be considered a valuable deterrent.
The cops are keeping the name of the shooter cop on the down low to protect him. I am amazed that you can't see this, given what's exploding in his community.
I'm not sure how much deterrent "big lawsuits" are, once you follow the money.
The settlement funds don't come out of the hide of the department, generally. They come from the city, and the city's insurer, and that money comes from the taxes paid by the citizens of the community being policed. So your fellow citizens are really paying the bill, not The Evil Police. Though maybe they will get mad enough at this to toss out the city council/mayor/police chief, though the amount of money from each individual resident's pocket is likely so small that they may not even be motivated to complain.
Bother.
ApatheticNoMore
8-15-14, 2:21am
What are your protections when you've got a beef with a physician in Mexico?
well you may or may not have the right to sue with a physician in the U.S. anyway. I think in a few years it's doubtful many will as some have started requiring arbitration agreements. Which means if you agree to see the doctor, all disputes go through arbitration and you waive your right to sue (which may raise questions of what kind of physician one is seeing - I mean you do wonder, if the doctor has an above average reason to fear suits - and what kind of 3rd world country they live in anyway ...).
We don't seem to have the problem with police in the nearby city here.......except they're always getting drunk. We have a lot of murders going on.
As far as the MO stuff going on, I think it would be very hard to deal with out-of-control crowds.........especially when people are allowed to have all sorts of guns.
I think it's very unfortunate that it started out as a peaceful protest and got violent. Seems like the peaceful protestors would try to put pressure on those of them who take advantage of the moment to plunder and destroy.
It just takes credibility away from their protest.
well you may or may not have the right to sue with a physician in the U.S. anyway. I think in a few years it's doubtful many will as some have started requiring arbitration agreements. Which means if you agree to see the doctor, all disputes go through arbitration and you waive your right to sue (which may raise questions of what kind of physician one is seeing - I mean you do wonder, if the doctor has an above average reason to fear suits - and what kind of 3rd world country they live in anyway ...).
I had a cousin here in the states (at a reputable hospital) who went in for elective shoulder surgery. She ended up in ICU, septic, on a respirator, going into kidney failure, etc., etc. She was very close to death, but survived. Their lawyer told them they didn't have any chance to win a lawsuit, and they shouldn't even waste their money or time. :(
I don't think there are enough police for that. Or budget to hire them.
Who needs budgets when the pentagon is giving out MRAPs for free.
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/one-nation-under-swat-militarization-americas-police
..
I think it's very unfortunate that it started out as a peaceful protest and got violent. Seems like the peaceful protestors would try to put pressure on those of them who take advantage of the moment to plunder and destroy.
It just takes credibility away from their protest.
Except that when livelihoods are involved, people tend to sit up and pay attention. Just like intersections seem to get traffic lights only after a few deaths. Human nature.
And there may be frivolous medical lawsuits, but as CathyA suggested, there are countless botched surgeries, needless deaths, and cases of egregious incompetence that never come to trial. Malpractice insurance is expensive because it's a cash cow for the insurance companies.
From merckmanual.com: As onerous as premiums and the threat of lawsuits can be for individual physicians (particularly in certain high-risk specialties and geographic areas), the total annual malpractice premium amount paid in 2008 by physicians and institutions was about $12 billion, representing only about 0.6% of total annual health care costs. Actual malpractice settlements paid out in 2008 were $3.6 billion (< 0.2% of health care costs). Thus, even a major reduction in malpractice settlements would not lower total health care costs significantly, although it could greatly affect certain physicians' practices.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 10:39am
Well here's an update. I just went to yahoo.com news where I found out that the name of the officer in Ferguson has been released. I think this was smart that they knuckled under and released the name. To not do so, to me anyway, has an implication to it that the police see themselves as above the law. In a country with such inequality, that just doesn't fly very well, especially when we are talking of a young person - 18 for crying out loud - being killed......Glad the name's out there now and also glad that things have calmed down some out there. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 10:49am
Or not.
Surely you can understand the costs that faux or punitive suits level in society? You are one to complain endlessly about medical costs in the U.S. Well buddy, medical lawsuit happy Americans have helped create those high medical costs. DH, on one of his several juries, heard a frivolous medical case and the plantiff got 0 even though he had carefully orchestrated his lawsuit to be heard in the city's courts where traditionally plantiffs are rewarded by juries, more so than out in the county. But the doctor had to defend himself and spent $$$ or did his insurance company, ca-ching ca-ching.
What are your protections when you've got a beef with a physician in Mexico?
With all the sincerity in the world, I want to assure you that I truly do not expect you to stay in the U.S. If you are here because of my expectations, you are released. Feel free to go right now!
Maybe yes, maybe no. Not everything has to be settled in court. But I agree that having this as a tool in society can be considered a valuable deterrent.
The cops are keeping the name of the shooter cop on the down low to protect him. I am amazed that you can't see this, given what's exploding in his community.To answer a few of your questions - I've never had - to date, knock on wood - any issues with medical care in Mexico. The doctors I've seen have been mostly US trained and quite competent and where I've been it's quite clean and safe and sanitized. And probably a cause of fear to US hospitals as more people catch on and offshore their healthcare. As to dental, I did have one crown fall out after four years which did bum me out but I went back to Mexico and got it redone for $160 and I was going there anyway for other things so when I compare that $160 to what it would cost here I can't get too upset.
As to leaving the US - here are my thoughts - A. I was only talking about it in the sense of if I were one of the reporters treated this way in Ferguson, and B. Why is US citizenship - or any other citizenship for that matter - supposed to be immune from comparison shopping and intense evaluation? If employers can be so picky and choosy and intense in evaluating every last move an employee makes, why not turn that around and put your citizenship under the microscope? To me this is just common sense, and I'd feel this way about any country - not just the US. Certainly there is room for improvement anywhere in the world. Not just here.
I can see where withholding the name of the cop involved is protecting him - the only problem with this is the perception that by doing so, the cops see themselves as being above the law - which unfortunately in the US the past few years they have seemed to be. Perhaps (?) the good that can come out of this is people may rise up and demand more accountability out of the police. More pension loss due to police misbehavior and more not just accepting that this is the new normal as far as law enforcement. And maybe less militarization of the police? Such militarization is only going to lead to more such incidents down the road.....Rob
There's not a military on the planet that could impose martial law on this country against the will of the citizens.
I completely agree with your assessment, bae. What I'm curious about is whether or not we're really different from Solzhenitsyn's Russia regarding that will of the citizens or if we're just so many frogs in the pot. Time will likely tell.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 11:32am
I just read online that that police are claiming that the deceased and his witness friend allegedly stole a box of cigars the morning of the shooting valued at 48.99 from a local store. Even if this is true - that is what probation is for for first time offenders - that is what fines and restitution are for. ...
ack!!!!!!!!
I edtied this in error!!!!! So sorry! Iris lily
This is why I don't log into my account with powers!
iris lily
8-15-14, 11:33am
....... Why is US citizenship - or any other citizenship for that matter - supposed to be immune from comparison shopping and intense evaluation?
"supposed to be?" I never said that it was.
Sigh. I've been nothing but supportive of you leaving the U.,S.
Where the rubber meets the road is that, umm, how to put this gently, those other developed countries don't want you. But do not mistake their sentiment for mine.
Interestingly enough, DH's family is investigating Swiss citizenship or some version of citizenship. According to our Swiss relatives, it's doable for DH and his siblings because their mother was born in Switzerland. According to one foray into Swiss bureaucrat-land, it's not doable. But they are continuing to investigate. For us, at this late date, there's not much advantage, but we've got a nephew who aould love to work in the EU. Even if there would be a pathway to citizenship or permanent residency for DH and I, we'd have to look at how much the U.S. would confiscate before we leave, as pointed out by bae.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 11:40am
I just read online that that police are claiming that the deceased and his witness friend allegedly stole a box of cigars the morning of the shooting valued at 48.99 from a local store. Even if this is true - that is what probation is for for first time offenders - that is what fines and restitution are for. ...
ack!!!!!!!!
I edtied this in error!!!!! So sorry! Iris lily
This is why I don't log into my account with powers!No problem, IL, I'll come back later in the day and repost. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 11:54am
My point above was that even if the police's side of the story is true - what consequences do we face as a nation due to this death over a mere 48.99? Don't the police understand that their actions have Internet consequences, and that stories like this go viral across the world in mere minutes? How much tourism revenue for example is the US going to lose now due to this incident and international perceptions of the police? Seriously, for 48.99? Not even the cost of a hotel room? Losing all that tourism revenue over the death of someone with no prior record? Much much much wiser in this case - if the police story is true - to arrest, have court dates, and then sentence probation with whatever fines and/or community service the court deems appropriate.
It amazes me that many Americans look down at Mexico as corrupt - and it is, I'll admit it - but after this incident, might we want to pick up the broom and sweep our side of the street a tad? Had people above the local police - people who understand such concepts as this story going viral affecting spending and international reputation - not gotten involved, how long would it have taken for the police side of the story to be released, along with the officer's name? It sure seems to me pressure had to be applied to get even their side of the story summarized, let alone the officer's name. As if the police are automatically innocent and above the law - this is how this has come across to me and people I have talked to in my neighborhood. And what of the officer involved? What kind of life is he going to have going forward? Can he expect to keep his pension and his job, now that people far above the local police have gotten involved - people who understand the concept of perceptions and how they can work against you?
I'm hoping that some good comes of this - people standing up more to the police and demanding accountability. And less police militarization. I love the quote Ron Johnson made recently - the head of Missouri's Highway Patrol that has taken over security in Ferguson - We are here to serve and protect, not instill fear. I LOVE this quote. I just wish it were true in more cases. I definitely have fear of the police - I didn't used to - but I do now. I can't see it going away given current conditions, either. Rob
iris lilies
8-15-14, 11:56am
...From merckmanual.com: As onerous as premiums and the threat of lawsuits can be for individual physicians (particularly in certain high-risk specialties and geographic areas), the total annual malpractice premium amount paid in 2008 by physicians and institutions was about $12 billion, representing only about 0.6% of total annual health care costs. Actual malpractice settlements paid out in 2008 were $3.6 billion (< 0.2% of health care costs). Thus, even a major reduction in malpractice settlements would not lower total health care costs significantly, although it could greatly affect certain physicians' practices.
Now that is useful information. Perhaps you've changed my mind some today.
I just read online that that police are claiming that the deceased and his witness friend allegedly stole a box of cigars the morning of the shooting valued at 48.99 from a local store. Even if this is true - that is what probation is for for first time offenders - that is what fines and restitution are for. ...
ack!!!!!!!!
I edtied this in error!!!!! So sorry! Iris lily
This is why I don't log into my account with powers!
did you you see the pictures? It was a strong arm robbery, and that 18yr old was a big guy. And how do you know that was his first time in trouble? Do they release the juvenal records?
I'm not saying what happened was right, but I don't believe the kid was just walking down the road and this cop decided to shoot him in the middle of the day. I imagine the cops story is closer to the truth, that Brown attracted him and tried to take his gun. Then in a rage from being attacked he emptied his gun into him.
But i I wasn't there so it's just a guess. And Browns buddy is not a reliable witness.
ApatheticNoMore
8-15-14, 2:15pm
I think it's very unfortunate that it started out as a peaceful protest and got violent. Seems like the peaceful protestors would try to put pressure on those of them who take advantage of the moment to plunder and destroy.
It just takes credibility away from their protest.
It's very hard to tell, often violence is reported when little actually exists (yea it's where filming comes in to collaborate reports, and even then you need the full footage to see if anything incited it or not). Since protests are often infiltrated, it could just be provacators inciting violence (most protestors expect the possibility of infiltration). And it also could be da da dum: some random no-goodnics who have decided to come to the protest (no I'm not going to call them "the protestors") getting violent. But it would seem to me if one wanted to confront violent people (which is what your arguing protestors somehow have a responsibility to do, even though most probably have no training in doing so) one would have to know what they were doing - are they likely to listen? Are they even there for "the cause" in some sense or for their own purposes? So I'm saying even if it's nogoodnicks, it actually in NO WAY takes credibility away from the protest and all the peaceful protestors that are there. It's irrelevant to that.
Criminals, in the course of a Robbery involving small sums like $48, have killed innocent people many times. So, why--based on that fact(only $48) alone-- minimize his actions, while nominating this "young boy" for Martyrdom?
So, why--based on that fact alone-- minimize his actions, while nominating this "young boy" for Martyrdom?In many cases, it satisfies an itch.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 6:46pm
did you you see the pictures? It was a strong arm robbery, and that 18yr old was a big guy. And how do you know that was his first time in trouble? Do they release the juvenal records?
I'm not saying what happened was right, but I don't believe the kid was just walking down the road and this cop decided to shoot him in the middle of the day. I imagine the cops story is closer to the truth, that Brown attracted him and tried to take his gun. Then in a rage from being attacked he emptied his gun into him.
But i I wasn't there so it's just a guess. And Browns buddy is not a reliable witness.I did see the released photos after I had posted, yes, and I though I am no expert on Missouri State Law, perhaps this is a felony now. Though it seems that US law is getting so over the top that sneezing too loud may get you arrested these days. Not to take from this situation here. My point is this - robbery with no weapon, possible altercation with police with no weapon, very very very stupid to gun him down. Very stupid. And I'm afraid that I'm not the only one you are going to find out there that would agree with this.
It does now appear that this young guy was a bit unsavory, but I'd almost bet money that details will continue to emerge from the Ferguson police that are less than savory. Just five years ago the Ferguson police arrested a black man, threw him in a cell, beat him, and then charged him for bleeding on their uniforms. It's on the Huffington Post today. Thank God the African American victim sued in civil court is all I can say - and victim is way too weak of a word for what this man endured at the hands of the Ferguson Police. Based on their past actions, I'm thinking they are less than savory, too. So who does one side with? Based on my life experiences, I'm going to side with the deceased (so far) due to the fact that he had no weapon, though it now appears he was less than innocent, I'll give you that. YMMV and I realize not all will agree with me. Rob
PS I do agree with you, based on the emerging evidence, that Brown's friend is not the most reliable of witnesses. Granted. I also believe that due to past actions, such as the above mentioned total behavior as if the law didn't apply to them in 2009 in the above referenced situation, that the Ferguson police are less then reliable witnesses, too. It may be that large settlements may need to be doled out if only to keep the calm and keep similar from spreading through the US.
We have had discussions on this board regarding social class before and the one thing I can share with you'all that are better set than me - beware of how much the lower classes hate/fear/distrust the police. This Ferguson situation could take place in many other places, too, it just doesn't have to be the US Midwest. Rob
I did see the released photos after I had posted, yes, and I though I am no expert on Missouri State Law, perhaps this is a felony now. Though it seems that US law is getting so over the top that sneezing too loud may get you arrested these days.
I think it has always pretty much been the case in this country that laying hands on someone else is considered assault and battery, and when force and intimidation are used like this to steal property, that's robbery.
As to your understanding of use of force, when it is appropriate, and how people are trained, I suspect you are misinformed and lack understanding. (For instance, I'd be curious to hear if there was any struggle before the shooting, or any perception by the officer of an assault on his person. Or did the officer simply decide out of the blue to gun down this young man for fun? It'd be handy if someone had video, for instance, so we could see the body language and movement...)
As to the exact circumstances, the facts matter. Facebook and Twitter aren't facts, or evidence.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 7:18pm
I think it has always pretty much been the case in this country that laying hands on someone else is considered assault and battery, and when force and intimidation are used like this to steal property, that's robbery.
As to your understanding of use of force, when it is appropriate, and how people are trained, I suspect you are misinformed and lack understanding. (For instance, I'd be curious to hear if there was any struggle before the shooting, or any perception by the officer of an assault on his person. Or did the officer simply decide out of the blue to gun down this young man for fun? It'd be handy if someone had video, for instance, so we could see the body language and movement...)
As to the exact circumstances, the facts matter. Facebook and Twitter aren't facts, or evidence.Something interesting here Bae that ties into your last sentence. Today in USA Today there is an article stating that due to social media, the Ferguson police lost control of this story. Thank Goodness. Based as I said above on their behavior back in 2009, I'm glad social media is here to stifle them a bit and put them much more quickly in their place. This amazes me as prior to this I was not a great fan of social media but I'm starting to see what positive uses it can have. It can transfer power and weaken former power bases - in some cases, a very good thing indeed. Were it not for twitter and Facebook and the Internet in general, were we back in 1985 or so, who knows what the police could have gotten away with? Now there can be no real hiding as the world knows.....In this case, a good thing. Though the officer that was involved? Due partly to social media, his life is now ruined, at least the life he's had up to now with stable employment as a law enforcement officer. Rob
Due to partly to social media, his life is now ruined, at least the life he's had up to now with stable employment as a law enforcement officer. Rob
And before even the bother of any investigations, hearings, trials, jury deliberations, or anything!
Very efficient, this new social media mob rule thing. Hope it works out for you.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 7:25pm
And before even the bother of any investigations, hearings, trials, jury deliberations, or anything!
Very efficient, this new social media mob rule thing. Hope it works out for you.At least people are aware that something happened, there is international attention/reputation/tourist dollars on the line, and there is a great deal of pressure that wouldn't otherwise be there on the local police to watch their step as the world knows anything they do in an instant. To me this is absolutely wonderful and a great equalizer of power. It also helps those in high command to get the lead out and pick up the pace a bit as situations like this tend to be explosive in general. All in all I'd say the social media mob rule thing? A good thing. Yes indeed. Look at how it managed to get the local police reduced to nothing and how it forced a summary and a released name of the officer involved today - quite powerful and I'm thinking quite a surprise to those who past tense had power that were flattened by social media. I'm guessing they didn't expect this. Let it be a warming to police everywhere - they are not above the law. Rob
The tricky thing is that the pace of the justice system and the pace of flash-mobs/uprisings are on very different time scales.
As to the virtues of mob rule, well, read some history. It works both ways.
You seem happy that that officer has been thrown to the mob, before the justice process has even had a chance to begin rolling. Madness.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 7:41pm
The tricky thing is that the pace of the justice system and the pace of flash-mobs/uprisings are on very different time scales.
As to the virtues of mob rule, well, read some history. It works both ways.
You seem happy that that officer has been thrown to the mob, before the justice process has even had a chance to begin rolling. Madness.Had the young man had a weapon at any stage of the process, I'd be much more for slowing down and letting the wheels of justice spin. Murder even though there was no weapon - let the Ferguson police face the world's wrath via social media. It's almost as if social media gives back some power to the people.....and forces others into knuckling under to not being above the law. In this particular case, (so far) I'd say social media has been a blessing. A real blessing. Just think of how much tourism revenue will be lost in this country from abroad over the next few months - you'd better believe there will be high level meetings and pressure placed somewhere due to this. Social media definitely helps here also as it makes the world aware of what's going on and then people abroad can decided if they still want to travel to the US for whatever reason. There will be no shortage of video clips for the world to peruse on this one, either. I'm thinking no unsavory fact is going to be easily buried on either side of this equation, for better or worse. Once again, partly due to social media. Rob
Murder even though there was no weapon ...
You have already lept to multiple conclusions there about how events transpired, and what the verdict is.
Without hearing any testimony, or seeing any evidence presented, other than surfing the blogosphere.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 7:52pm
You have already lept to multiple conclusions there about how events transpired, and what the verdict is.
Without hearing any testimony, or seeing any evidence presented, other than surfing the blogosphere.Did not the Ferguson police themselves admit that Brown had no weapon? And he was shot dead by a law enforcement officer, did not the Ferguson police admit to this much? Is shooting someone dead not considered murder if the other party had no weapon? Rob
Is shooting someone dead not considered murder if the other party had no weapon? Rob
Not necessarily Rob, it depends entirely on the circumstances. There are all sorts of reasons why a homicide could be "justifiable homicide" and not "murder" - the lack of a weapon on one party's part does not automatically make it murder.
This is why we have trials and jury instructions. Instead of simply lynching people. Efficient though that is.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 8:04pm
Not necessarily Rob, it depends entirely on the circumstances. There are all sorts of reasons why a homicide could be "justifiable homicide" and not "murder" - the lack of a weapon on one party's part does not automatically make it murder.
This is why we have trials and jury instructions. Instead of simply lynching people. Efficient though that is.I guess this distinction will be made by the courts.....fine. I'm ok with that. But I am of the opinion that this social media thing will force the courts to be more objective and more honest in the process and the world now knows and will be following this. Every last movement will be scrutinized and any false moves by the courts, police, or the media, come to think of it - the world will know. How will that impact the US - a country where money rules everything - economically? Basic human rights are going to have to come into play and be respected and this cop - he's not going to be able to hide behind his badge in a good old boy's network and get off scott free - at least not automatically. There will be consequences if this does occur and the perception is such. And maybe this is what social media is good for? Doling out consequences in situations where before the law didn't mean much. Rob
iris lilies
8-15-14, 8:36pm
And before even the bother of any investigations, hearings, trials, jury deliberations, or anything!
Very efficient, this new social media mob rule thing. Hope it works out for you.
Yep, there are 750,000 "investigators" out there now.
This case is much more dramatic than Trayvon Martin because there is video footage, there is rioting and looting, and everyone involved in the primary act are choirboys (verified by the Ferguson police chief this morning when he announced the the officer's name.)
Mob rule or social justice, everyone's got an opinion.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 8:47pm
Yep, there are 750,000 "investigators" out there now.
This case is much more dramatic than Trayvon Martin because there is video footage, there is rioting and looting, and everyone involved in the primary act are choirboys (verified by the Ferguson police chief this morning when he announced the the officer's name.)
Mob rule or social justice, everyone's got an opinion.Not only does everyone have an opinion but regardless of how this ends, there will be no way to make everyone happy. I just hope this ends somewhat neutrally as there is so much anger and resentment out there in general - the wrong decision could send Ferguson and other places like it over the edge. You'd think that people with money and power would care - the images of places like Ferguson going over the edge being released via the Internet for the world to see would not be good for the stock market, if nothing else. Rob
Basic human rights are going to have to come into play and be respected and this cop - he's not going to be able to hide behind his badge in a good old boy's network and get off scott free - at least not automatically. There will be consequences if this does occur and the perception is such. And maybe this is what social media is good for? Doling out consequences in situations where before the law didn't mean much. Rob
But Rob, what if he's innocent of any wrongdoing? Too bad/So Sad?
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 8:52pm
But Rob, what if he's innocent of any wrongdoing? Too bad/So Sad?If he's found innocent of any wrongdoing even though the young man had no weapon...ummmmm.....we truly live in a third world country. But without the family values and the colorful marketplaces and tendency towards a slower, saner pace once you get out of third world cities. Is that what anyone really wants? Rob
PS I came back to add - who knows how many lawsuits there will be from those teargassed who were peacefully protesting, and then those two reporters who were assaulted and detained? Would not be surprised if they sued, too, and they are connected and educated....in other words, they know the dollar value of such behavior by the police. And much of the public will be on their side, which may just help everyone's lawsuits here. One problem with this whole situation is there is so much inequality in wealth distribution in the US that many people are going to automatically side against the police, considering it their duty to do so. I don't consider it a duty but as the facts have been presented so far, never has enough money been printed for equitable settlements. Rob
If he's found innocent of any wrongdoing even though the young man had no weapon...ummmmm.....we truly live in a third world country. I might consider a 6'4", 300lb young man with demonstrated violent tendancies to be a weapon.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 9:06pm
I might consider a 6'4", 300lb young man with demonstrated violent tendancies to be a weapon.Sorry, I don't. Assault I'll go for, yes, but weapon, no. No can do. And he weighed less than 300 lbs, it was a little over 200 that I read online. I'm not saying it's great he did what it appears he did, either. I am saying that he should not have been killed by the Ferguson police - and now there is going to be hell to pay and relentless media attention. Ruined careers. All kinds of good things. Just because this one cop couldn't keep his gun contained when dealing with someone carrying no weapon. The teargas fiasco, and the assaults on the two reporters by the Ferguson police are just going to add to the parade when all of this goes to court. Also the aggressive militarization of the local police - THOUGH SOME GOOD - I read today there is some Democratic lawmaker saying they are crafting a bill to reduce police militarization. None too soon in my book. But at least one positive thing to come from all of this. Rob
Sorry, I don't. Assault I'll go for, yes, but weapon, no. No can do. And he weighed less than 300 lbs, it was a little over 200 that I read online. 292. That's a little over 200.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 9:14pm
292. That's a little over 200.I just googled and you are right on the weight and I was wrong. I thought I read earlier today 232 lbs. but I just read in USA Today 6 feet 4 inches and 292 lbs just like you said. That still doesn't equate with weapon in my book, thought intimidating, I'll go for. Rob
292. That's a little over 200.
Looks over 200 to me
http://tftppull.freethoughtllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/brown-robbery-stroe.jpg
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 9:28pm
He does look intimidating and I feel sorry for that clerk in the pics. I can't tell from the vid here how tall he is exactly or what he weighs, but then I've never been good at estimating these kinds of things. Rob
If he's found innocent of any wrongdoing even though the young man had no weapon...ummmmm.....we truly live in a third world country.
As I mentioned, there are many circumstances in which homicide is justifiable, even if the killed party does not have a weapon. You seem really hung up on this "no weapon" business.
You need to know the facts to reach a just conclusion.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 9:37pm
I just wanted to add that I see issues here beyond the killing of the young man. The teargasing for two hours after the crowd had dispersed Wednesday night, the riot gear, armored vehicles, the arrests of the two journalists (for me personally this one is the height of stupidity as these people are well connected and can inflict serious financial harm via the courts - duh?) Obviously such common sense was beyond the arresting officers. All of this is overkill and is not going to help the Ferguson police department defend itself as it leads to the perception of overreacting and excessive force.
Maybe as I have said before some good will come of this. Maybe people will stand up to the police more and not accept this behavior. Going forward any kind of overkill is going to be on social media - police everywhere need to understand this if they wish to protect and collect their pensions. I also believe there will be more litigation against police departments going forward and possibly less fear of the police in general (if) their power is flattened via large settlements and social media. And possibly people will demand less militarization of the police - how much of a police state do we look like now due to these images of riot geared cops throwing tear gas around peaceful protestors? Maybe some good will come of this, I'm hoping so, anyway. Rob
I just read in USA Today 6 feet 4 inches and 292 lbs just like you said. That still doesn't equate with weapon in my book,...
Then you know very little about use of force. Or disparity of force. Or strength and speed. Or what happens when someone that big and strong closes to grapple with you. Or hits you. Or struggles with you for your weapon.
I weigh about 275, I work out 3-4 hours a day, and, while wearing 70 pounds of gear, I can pick up a 200+ pound rescue dummy with 50-70 pounds of gear on it with one hand and hoist it out of the way. While wearing breathing apparatus. I've also studied martial arts every day for 35+ years. If I were to hit a little fellow like that clerk, he'd stay hit. If I were to grapple with a police officer for his weapon, it would be a bad day for the officer (especially as I am a certified weapons retention trainer and know all the tricks and their counters...).
You can die from a single punch, or from landing poorly from a simple throw.
You are not compelled when defending yourself to wait-and-see how good the other fellow's punch is before deciding you need to up your game a bit. There's no "equal force" requirement in most jurisdictions I am aware of.
This isn't rocket science, there's plenty of law concerning this area, it doesn't work the way you think it does, Rob.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 9:40pm
As I mentioned, there are many circumstances in which homicide is justifiable, even if the killed party does not have a weapon. You seem really hung up on this "no weapon" business.
You need to know the facts to reach a just conclusion.The problem here Bae is - how many people out there agree with me, no weapon = don't kill? You might be surprised. Perhaps the laws need to be revisited to save lives from overzealous American police. Rob
That's a big fella for sure. 292 and 6'4".
If only this COULD be black and white. But it has all shades of grey all over it. Unfortunately.
The police did overreact and some in the crowd did loot. No one is blameless here. But the riot and over reaction of the police are separate from the killing of this young man. These are really two different stories that need to be addressed. Seperately.
I do think the cop acted wrongly. I don't know what he was thinking or feeling...probably fear as that would make him draw his gun and shoot. I'm pretty sure he didn't leave the house with the intention of killing an unarmed man. I'm also pretty sure he knows he was wrong in his actions. He is supposed to be able to handle the situation in a cool calm manner, and not like just some George Zimmerman cop wanna be.
The young man, apparently, wasn't just some innocent good guy walking down the street black. He did just rob a store. He did threaten and strong arm the clerk. He wasn't the teddy bear his friends/family have tried to portray him as. Sure, he might have been a good student, and a nice guy to friends/family, etc..and getting ready for college, etc..but, he DID just rob a store. Good guys don't do that. They don't. Thugs do that. Punks do that. Bullies do that...especially when they do it in broad daylight essentially telling the clerk 'I'm gonna take this and you can't do anything about it'. That's not the act of a desperate person trying to feed his family or 'just get by'. That's not the act of a person driven to desperation by his crummy lot in life. That's the act of a thug. period.
The cop didn't know he was unarmed. The cop was probably scared by the guys size. Yet it would seem the cop blew it.
If only it could be black and white. It would be so easy if the kid was the good/off to college kid some would believe, or the cop was the evil George Zimmerman others would believe. I'm guessing neither is what each side would have us believe. Or as bad as the other side would make them be. Very complicated. Very sad.
The problem here Bae is - how many people out there agree with me, no weapon = don't kill?
Hardly a useful argument. 45% of the American people believe astrology is science.(*)
Perhaps the laws need to be revisited to save lives from overzealous American police. Rob
You don't even know what the exceptions are, or why they are in place, or why those concepts have been part of our legal history for *thousands* of years, yet you advocate throwing them away "to save lives from overzealous American police".
Amazing.
(*)
http://www.motherjones.com/files/astrology2.png
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 9:47pm
That's a big fella for sure. 292 and 6'4".
If only this COULD be black and white. But it has all shades of grey all over it. Unfortunately.
The police did overreact and some in the crowd did loot. No one is blameless here. But the riot and over reaction of the police are separate from the killing of this young man. These are really two different stories that need to be addressed. Seperately.
I do think the cop acted wrongly. I don't know what he was thinking or feeling...probably fear as that would make him draw his gun and shoot. I'm pretty sure he didn't leave the house with the intention of killing an unarmed man. I'm also pretty sure he knows he was wrong in his actions. He is supposed to be able to handle the situation in a cool calm manner, and not like just some George Zimmerman cop wanna be.
The young man, apparently, wasn't just some innocent good guy walking down the street black. He did just rob a store. He did threaten and strong arm the clerk. He wasn't the teddy bear his friends/family have tried to portray him as. Sure, he might have been a good student, and a nice guy to friends/family, etc..and getting ready for college, etc..but, he DID just rob a store. Good guys don't do that. They don't. Thugs do that. Punks do that. Bullies do that...especially when they do it in broad daylight essentially telling the clerk 'I'm gonna take this and you can't do anything about it'. That's not the act of a desperate person trying to feed his family or 'just get by'. That's not the act of a person driven to desperation by his crummy lot in life. That's the act of a thug. period.
The cop didn't know he was unarmed. The cop was probably scared by the guys size. Yet it would seem the cop blew it.
If only it could be black and white. It would be so easy if the kid was the good/off to college kid some would believe, or the cop was the evil George Zimmerman others would believe. I'm guessing neither is what each side would have us believe. Or as bad as the other side would make them be. Very complicated. Very sad.I'm very much in agreement with your take here Peggy and I do agree that neither side is innocent and the young man was a thug - nice guys don't rob stores and intimidate clerks. Full agreement there. I like how you understand that neither side is without blame or fault here and are not auto-siding with the police. That cop did overreact and he did blow it. Big time. As I said a few posts back, I think unsavory facts are going to revealed about both sides here and due to social media, there's really no hiding from this anymore. Here's hoping for some kind of justice if such is possible and here's hoping this cop is not auto-protected by the old boys network. I rather think the results won't be pretty if that does take place. But once again, lots of gray and very complicated and very sad as you stated. I couldn't agree more.
Good to see you here again BTW, it's been awhile since I have run across your pixels. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 9:50pm
Hardly a useful argument. 45% of the American people believe astrology is science.(*)
You don't even know what the exceptions are, or why they are in place, or why those concepts have been part of our legal history for *thousands* of years, yet you advocate throwing them away "to save lives from overzealous American police".
Amazing.
(*)
http://www.motherjones.com/files/astrology2.pngI believe in the dignity of human life above all else, Bae. If laws need to be revisited to see if they are still merited, I'm all for it. I don't see it as throwing them away - much more like updating. Rob
Rob - what differentiates justifiable homicide from murder? Be specific. Do any of those items speak to human dignity?
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-14, 10:01pm
Rob - what differentiates justifiable homicide from murder? Be specific. Do any of those items speak to human dignity?I'm not seeing much respect for human dignity in the fact that this young man, thug that he was - and I do agree he was a thug, robbing the store was not cool - was killed by the police even though he had no weapon and put his hands in the air before his death to make this clear. If you want specifics Bae, I don't have them for you.....I don't work in that world. I work much more in a world of dignity/respect/compromise and not a scientific world of numbers and charts which I don't much trust anyway. My approach and beliefs are obviously different from yours - that does not make either of us right or wrong on this one as there is just too much grey area here as was stated above. And I do think further unsavory facts are going to be released regarding both sides.
Though I can say there's one issue I have that has not been raised yet. And maybe this is why I feel so strongly the way I do. I hold the police to a higher standard - A. they get pensions that most of us can only dream of, and b. they can detain and arrest me and mess with my life if they so desire. Perhaps A. doesn't work for a lot of other people but B. can happen to anyone it seems these days. Google for instances of innocent people being killed in their homes by SWAT teams that have went to the wrong address. For that reason alone I fear and distrust the police, and hope to never encounter them, not even in a positive kind of way. I'd just as soon not engage with them period. Rob
iris lilies
8-16-14, 12:00am
That's a big fella for sure. 292 and 6'4".
If only this COULD be black and white. But it has all shades of grey all over it. Unfortunately.
The police did overreact and some in the crowd did loot. No one is blameless here. But the riot and over reaction of the police are separate from the killing of this young man. These are really two different stories that need to be addressed. Seperately.
I do think the cop acted wrongly. I don't know what he was thinking or feeling...probably fear as that would make him draw his gun and shoot. I'm pretty sure he didn't leave the house with the intention of killing an unarmed man. I'm also pretty sure he knows he was wrong in his actions. He is supposed to be able to handle the situation in a cool calm manner, and not like just some George Zimmerman cop wanna be.
The young man, apparently, wasn't just some innocent good guy walking down the street black. He did just rob a store. He did threaten and strong arm the clerk. He wasn't the teddy bear his friends/family have tried to portray him as. Sure, he might have been a good student, and a nice guy to friends/family, etc..and getting ready for college, etc..but, he DID just rob a store. Good guys don't do that. They don't. Thugs do that. Punks do that. Bullies do that...especially when they do it in broad daylight essentially telling the clerk 'I'm gonna take this and you can't do anything about it'. That's not the act of a desperate person trying to feed his family or 'just get by'. That's not the act of a person driven to desperation by his crummy lot in life. That's the act of a thug. period.
The cop didn't know he was unarmed. The cop was probably scared by the guys size. Yet it would seem the cop blew it.
If only it could be black and white. It would be so easy if the kid was the good/off to college kid some would believe, or the cop was the evil George Zimmerman others would believe. I'm guessing neither is what each side would have us believe. Or as bad as the other side would make them be. Very complicated. Very sad.
peggy? peggy, is that you?
I agree with what you wrote above, it's nicely balanced and reasonable.
peggy? peggy, is that you?
I agree with what you wrote above, it's nicely balanced and reasonable.
There are probably no Republicans involved.:)
peggy? peggy, is that you?
I agree with what you wrote above, it's nicely balanced and reasonable.. And likewise, it would be nice to have some of you conservatives to show balance sometimes too. Just sayin'.
Yossarian
8-16-14, 10:14am
. And likewise, it would be nice to have some of you conservatives to show balance sometimes too. Just sayin'.
What part of perform an investigation, determine the facts, and punish whoever did wrong do you find imbalanced?
I was referring to responses in general. I am always puzzled with the aggressive, somewhat insulting way that some of you present your opinions. Maybe I should have brought this up in another post.
In this particular case, everybody is making assumptions before the facts are known.
And I think, in part, some of it IS a racial thing.......but mostly on the part of blacks. Perhaps my feelings are tainted by the fact that every single day in a nearby city, murders/rapes/robberies are committed by a certain ethnic group. I also have my own life experiences to draw from too. Maybe you've had different experiences.
Perhaps this happens in St. Louis too. We do have to appreciate how frustrating it must be for the police to encounter enraged people all the time.........with such easy access to guns.
Of course there are always bad cops too.
I think they really downplayed the looting, in order not to enrage the crowds more. And I think they brought in the State Police, because the head of it was a black man.......who marched with them.
I think there is a race problem in this country that everyone is trying so very hard to deny..........and it's not always the whites.
Go ahead.....call me a racist. I'm just voicing what I'm seeing going on. There is a sub-set of young black males who are very angry and violent. We need to figure out how to fix that.........if there even is a way.
And we DO need to wait until all the information is in. But I'm afraid the result will either cause riots, or intentionally give the masses what they want to hear in order to keep the calm.
I sincerely DO hope that justice prevails........if we can even figure out what that is.
gimmethesimplelife
8-16-14, 11:21am
I was referring to responses in general. I am always puzzled with the aggressive, somewhat insulting way that some of you present your opinions. Maybe I should have brought this up in another post.
In this particular case, everybody is making assumptions before the facts are known.
And I think, in part, some of it IS a racial thing.......but mostly on the part of blacks. Perhaps my feelings are tainted by the fact that every single day in a nearby city, murders/rapes/robberies are committed by a certain ethnic group. I also have my own life experiences to draw from too. Maybe you've had different experiences.
Perhaps this happens in St. Louis too. We do have to appreciate how frustrating it must be for the police to encounter enraged people all the time.........with such easy access to guns.
Of course there are always bad cops too.
I think they really downplayed the looting, in order not to enrage the crowds more. And I think they brought in the State Police, because the head of it was a black man.......who marched with them.
I think there is a race problem in this country that everyone is trying so very hard to deny..........and it's not always the whites.
Go ahead.....call me a racist. I'm just voicing what I'm seeing going on. There is a sub-set of young black males who are very angry and violent. We need to figure out how to fix that.........if there even is a way.
And we DO need to wait until all the information is in. But I'm afraid the result will either cause riots, or intentionally give the masses what they want to hear in order to keep the calm.
I sincerely DO hope that justice prevails........if we can even figure out what that is.Good point, Cathy.....I love your last sentence. What exactly would justice look like in this situation anyway? How is change effected to prevent similar from taking place in the future? I don't have the answers, that's for sure.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-16-14, 11:42am
What part of perform an investigation, determine the facts, and punish whoever did wrong do you find imbalanced?I think there's nothing per se wrong with performing an investigation, determining facts, and then doling out consequences or not depending on the findings. That's how things should work in a civilized society in my book. So I'm not disagreeing with you per se. The only problem is, coming where I come from socioeconomically, I can tell this board that many lower income people have no faith and trust in the system at all, including the legal system. I know many people to whom the word "investigation" automatically translates to "cover up". It's not good that Ferguson is 70% black and has so little diversity on it's police force - leading to perceptions of the old boy's network if this cop does indeed get off scott free. (which remains to be seen down the road).
I think some of what we are experiencing here with the social media onslaught is a lot of people who don't really care for what America has become and due to globalization, don't have much to lose and don't feel they have much of a stake in what America has become AND they have access to social media. Certainly those who feel marginalized are going to take advantage of the social media access, and something else I don't believe those who are middle class on this board don't get - down the pole from you, people feel and think very differently about America and a lot of people are flat out hopeless and fed up. That's why situations like this can be so explosive. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-16-14, 11:59am
Gotta say I just went online to read the latest about Ferguson and it seems as if there was looting again there last night. This I don't like. Very unsavory, especially after changes were made as to who was in charge and the police toned themselves down. This does not make the black community look good. I'm afraid this is going to be a long drawn out situation with no easy answers, just a real headache. Rob
iris lilies
8-16-14, 1:24pm
Gotta say I just went online to read the latest about Ferguson and it seems as if there was looting again there last night. This I don't like. Very unsavory, especially after changes were made as to who was in charge and the police toned themselves down. This does not make the black community look good. I'm afraid this is going to be a long drawn out situation with no easy answers, just a real headache. Rob
The leadership in Ferguson is tone deaf. It's stupid to release any information, to hold any press conference, without cluing in the State team in advance.
That said, last night's crying, screaming, looting, assaulting police--doing all of those things in response to information released by the Ferguson police department (information that had to come out anyway) is off the charts stupid.
Our local news portrayed last night's events as: 300 peaceful protestors went home in the evening, and then the looters and rioters came out.
Our local news portrayed last night's events as: 300 peaceful protestors went home in the evening, and then the looters and rioters came out.
That seems to be how most of these events have happened the past decade or so. You have the protestors, then you have the crowd of agitators/thugs/anarchists/wildings that come out to play and hijack things.
It's a great combination really.
This situation has given me something to think about. I don't mean to unfairly stereotype any group of people, but people of Scottish-American Descent, at least a significant number of them, tend to be VERY frugal. Ever heard the idiom "Thrifty Scot"? Sure you have. Well, after hearing about the looting flash mobs in Ferguson and other places, at certain "big boxes" and other corporate-owned retail stores, I got the idea--Hey--why can't we Thrifty Scots--do that? Just a bunch of us walk into a store, and help ourselves--everything--now 100% off! The fact that being Thrifty is a Scotmans' Cultural Heritage, should give it a boost from the Bleeding Hearts, and legitimize it. Just a bit of trivia: a now-defunct American auto manufacturer that catered to cheapskates in its' day, even had the companys' lowest-priced car model named Scotsman. And, there is a building supply company in 'Zurra, that sells a bill of materials to construct a house that is discounted by about 20%, plans included. There are various models, but the least expensive one is "The Scotsman". It hardly rates as a tiny house--prolly 700-800 s.f. But, it's stereotyping, isn't it? Anyway, I really don't mind--long as I get a good deal.
Social media makes it pretty easy to arrange a flash-mob to rob a store, it's like watching locusts strip a field.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wepmrX9n1uw
Works great for riots, or uprisings against oppressive Arab governments too, at least until they shut down cell service and wifi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_Arab_Spring
Larry Niven had this all figured out in 1973.
I think there is something to be said for the concept of cultural stereotyping.......of cultural genetic make-up. Seems like some cultures are more peaceful than others too. But here in the melting pot, any notion of differences makes you a racist, and is in direct opposition to the entire basis of this country's "everyone is always equal" creed.
That seems to be how most of these events have happened the past decade or so. You have the protestors, then you have the crowd of agitators/thugs/anarchists/wildings that come out to play and hijack things.
It's a great combination really.
I think you'd find historically it's gone on for much longer. Probably why DoD had labeled protesters as "low level terrorists". That's a scary slope - what happens when standard procedure dictates a protester is equal to agitator/thug/anarchist/wilding?
I just know that it must be really hard to control some large groups of people......especially if they're really angry.........and the protestors might have weapons themselves or capable of destroying alot of things. It must be really hard to know exactly what to do.
iris lilies
8-16-14, 5:03pm
Social media makes it pretty easy to arrange a flash-mob to rob a store, it's like watching locusts strip a field.
Oh heck, here's the flash mob that performed in my 'nabe this week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqZB8Y0MCrM&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqZB8Y0MCrM&feature=youtu.be
Gosh, I remember the old days of flash mobs when all we did was show up in a public place and unfurl umbrellas when there was no rain. Or do a silly dance. Or strike a pose. Life was simpler then, I guess.
These images, and those of the looting up in Ferguson, remind me of the murder jury DH sat on. The perps robbed a man at an ATM, shot him in front of his daughter, and then took the $7.58 they got from him and went to the nearby convenience store to buy pork rinds. Salty snacks seem pretty important.
What scum. The things you see when you don't have your Uzi.
I feel so bad for the store owners.
iris lilies
8-16-14, 5:13pm
I think you'd find historically it's gone on for much longer. Probably why DoD had labeled protesters as "low level terrorists". That's a scary slope - what happens when standard procedure dictates a protester is equal to agitator/thug/anarchist/wilding?
It IS a slope, which is why an armed populace is useful, even if the thugs/wildings/etc have guns. As they always will regardless of The Law because hello, they are thugs.
The things you see when you don't have your Uzi.
Duncan the Guard Pig says: "Never forget your Uzi!"
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-dSc0F5yvFzs/TAfrXs0iMTI/AAAAAAAAA1U/kDJ1-N9P_CU/s640/img_0110.jpg
iris lilies
8-16-14, 5:19pm
What scum. The things you see when you don't have your Uzi.
haha yup, funny! damn, without my Uzi I get nothing done.
It IS a slope, which is why an armed populace is useful, even if the thugs/wildings/etc have guns. As they always will regardless of The Law because hello, they are thugs.
As long an armed populace understands that when the police show up, they may not be able to tell the difference between them and the thugs.
I remember reading stories during the Iraqi war where soldiers would come under attack - and the soldiers responded by shooting anything that moved resulting in numerous civilian deaths. Everyone in the street were all possible threats and the soldiers did not have the luxury of taking the time to sort things out.
iris lilies
8-16-14, 5:39pm
As long an armed populace understands that when the police show up, they may not be able to tell the difference between them and the thugs.
I remember reading stories during the Iraqi war where soldiers would come under attack - and the soldiers responded by shooting anything that moved resulting in numerous civilian deaths. Everyone in the street were all possible threats and the soldiers did not have the luxury of taking the time to sort things out.
I was referring more to police vs. armed citizens. Thugs could be on either side.
haha yup, funny! damn, without my Uzi I get nothing done.
9mm works well enough for me...
9mm works well enough for me...
The nice thing abut the Uzi is that you can pick 9mm, 10mm, or 45ACP. The 9mm parts and ammo are more widely available and less expensive though, so that's the way to go.
Well, kids: The Top Scotsman in 'Zurra, Jay Nixon, has basically said Hey, Folks--the Party Is Over. So, they may as well pick up their empties, bag their trash, and head on home. I know we had some rain this morning, and a hot, humid, hot(x2) afternoon. This makes it ideal for our infamous vegetation to encroach on everything, and cause those volunteer Zurra trees(the thorny kind)to grow another 2-3 feet. So, they can all just get busy and wage war on weeds. Instead of "rioting", like the pot-stirring media presents it.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 11:47am
It seems as if last night in Ferguson the police used armored vehicles, riot gear, and teargas canisters once again to disperse protestors that refused to break up and go home as per the new curfew from 12 midnight to 5 AM. There were also seven arrests. I just don't think this is going to go away nicely or easily and I've also noticed online that Russia has issued some statements as to how hypocritical the US is - that we need to be dealing with our own problems. The world is definitely watching this and the Internet and social media are here to stay. Rob
iris lilies
8-17-14, 11:54am
It seems as if last night in Ferguson the police used armored vehicles, riot gear, and teargas canisters once again to disperse protestors that refused to break up and go home as per the new curfew from 12 midnight to 5 AM. There were also seven arrests. I just don't think this is going to go away nicely or easily and I've also noticed online that Russia has issued some statements as to how hypocritical the US is - that we need to be dealing with our own problems. The world is definitely watching this and the Internet and social media are here to stay. Rob
The police did manage to disburse the crowd by 1 AM. They were unable to wade into it to give aid to the citizen who was shot by another citizen and is now in critical condition.
ApatheticNoMore
8-17-14, 12:02pm
So much for the riot gear and armored vehicles then, not only overkill, ridiculous expense, bad optics, but also useless (at least to do actual policing, which I know isn't the point).
So much for the riot gear and armored vehicles then, not only overkill, ridiculous expense, bad optics, but also useless (at least to do actual policing, which I know isn't the point).
I remember when we transitioned from war to a "peacekeeping" mission in Iraq there were numerous stories of how soldiers were ill suited for police work. But now it seems we're taking police and making them soldiers.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 2:28pm
I remember when we transitioned from war to a "peacekeeping" mission in Iraq there were numerous stories of how soldiers were ill suited for police work. But now it seems we're taking police and making them soldiers.Agreed 100%. This is another reason I fear and distrust the police. Rob
I think once you reach the point of actual riots in the streets, you've pretty much lost, and there isn't a good answer at that point. The correct answer is to not get into the situation in the first place. I've spoken at some length about this with Norm Stamper, a neighbor of mine who was the Police Chief of Seattle during the WTO riots there. He wrote a nice article about the topic a couple years ago:
http://www.thenation.com/article/164501/paramilitary-policing-seattle-occupy-wall-street
As to local police forces with riot gear and armored vehicles, handy for very small events or assaults on strongholds of Very Bad People, but for widespread chaos, I bet you these guys do not train and plan enough to be successful in these larger events (as is shown in their performance in the field). I think this video is a must-watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9Usv82CdU
The world is definitely watching this and the Internet and social media are here to stay. Rob
I hope the lesson they learn is the benefit of the rule of law. You have to figure we will have a trial over this, whether warranted or not. I wonder what will happen if it turns out to be a justified shooting.
RE: What Chief "Robin Williams" took 15 minutes to say is that there is no substitute for A)doing things according to plan--the right way; and B)there is no substitute for experience. Another incident--high risk, low frequency, that had disasterous consequences was the deaths of the firefighters in the WTC collapse. They probably have a strategy in place, by now.
RE: What Chief "Robin Williams" took 15 minutes to say is that there is no substitute for A)doing things according to plan--the right way; and B)there is no substitute for experience.
There's a more important take-away there - about decision-making under pressure. Can be a life-saver to do it correctly, and not get sucked into the moment.
(And how to think about situations that you by-definition won't get a lot of experience with, until it's too late.)
I hope the lesson they learn is the benefit of the rule of law. You have to figure we will have a trial over this, whether warranted or not. I wonder what will happen if it turns out to be a justified shooting.
Probably more looting-and-pillaging of local businesses.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 4:12pm
Probably more looting-and-pillaging of local businesses.Yes. And the spread of this into cities beyond Ferguson and states beyond Missouri. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 4:16pm
I hope the lesson they learn is the benefit of the rule of law. You have to figure we will have a trial over this, whether warranted or not. I wonder what will happen if it turns out to be a justified shooting.Trial, yes, I don't see how there could not be one. Plus an untold number of lawsuits coming up due to police actions such as the assault/arrest of those two journalists earlier last week. I foresee lots and lots and lots of dollars changing hands due to litigation, both in terms of legal fees and in terms of actual settlements. Rob
There are probably no Republicans involved.:)
peggy? peggy, is that you?
I agree with what you wrote above, it's nicely balanced and reasonable.
Ha ha ha! Iris, Iris, Iris...if you look back you would see that I try to apply critical thinking to every topic...maybe you only notice when I agree with democrats/liberals.;)
If you are comparing this story to the Travon Martin story, these are two different stories. Completely. In the Travon Martin case, sure the kid might have been a punk, but he WASN'T being a punk when he was executed by George Zimmerman. He was just going home from the store when he was stalked by, and killed by George Zimmerman. It was clear what happened. And unfortunately, it's becoming clear (at least to me) what happened in this case. Unfortunately, without video evidence, we won't know the absolute truth, but as witnesses come forward, the truth, or at least something close to it, will come out.
So, without absolute truth to go on, let me play 'TV cop' and extrapolate what I think happened.
First of all, I see the info that the kid robbed the store. Then we get the info that the cop at first didn't know he was the suspect when he encountered him. So I'm left with wondering, why did he draw his gun? What made him draw his gun to the point of the kid being murdered? No matter what we may think of them, cops don't just drive through neighborhoods shooting people. The reports we have heard so far is the cop stopped because this kid and his friend were walking down the middle of the street, blocking traffic. Still not worthy of drawing your gun.
But then I got to thinking. Sure, the cop said he didn't know the kid had just robed the store, but the kid did. He knew what he had just done, and here was a cop pulling over to 'talk' to you. So the kid is in an 'emotionally heightened' state. Then this witness comes forward. An interesting witness to be sure, in my opinion, because she gives information that on the surface seems to place the cop in a bad light but really puts more into perspective. More than she realizes I think.
*At this point, we have been given the info that the cop has been treated for wounds, yet we don't know what those wounds are.
Here is the link to this witnesses report.
http://www.kmov.com/special-coverage-001/Another-witness-to-Michael-Brown-Jr-shooting-speaks-to-News-4-271139501.html
Now, understanding I am not there nor do I have privy to any of the official info, let me 'play detective'. Here is what I think happened.
The kid and his friend rob the store. The store owner calls in the robbery. The cop was in the neighborhood responding to some other call. He sees this kid (and his friend maybe) walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic. He stops and confronts the kid. He doesn't know this is the kid who robbed the store but the kid assumes he does. They tussle at the cop car (according to the witness), and the kid grabs for the cops gun and in the tussle the cop is shot. (in the foot, leg, or maybe just grazed, but not debilitating) The kid takes off running (he just shot a cop, or caused him to be shot, whatever). The cop, truly angered now, shoots at the kid, twice I think. The kid then stops, turns and puts his hands up. This cop is very angry and running on adrenalin (he just got shot after all, or shot at) and he keeps shooting at the kid until he drops dead.
This is what I think happened, piecing together the info we have. I'll just bet the wounds the cop was treated for are gunshot. And, not really knowing much about guns, I'll bet the kid has evidence (powder burns?) of being in very close contact of a discharging gun.
This is my guess. Unfortunately I don't think we will ever know the complete truth.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 4:38pm
There's a more important take-away there - about decision-making under pressure. Can be a life-saver to do it correctly, and not get sucked into the moment.
(And how to think about situations that you by-definition won't get a lot of experience with, until it's too late.)Now this one I agree with 100%. I'm thinking that will come up in any legal proceedings down the road too - decisions making under pressure and was this cop's decision excessive? Those familiar with me already know what I think and what my take is, but I still think it will be interesting to see how this plays out, and in a more clinical manner, I'm very interested as to how social media may impact the outcome if at all. Rob
On Meet the Press this morning, Andrea Mitchell interviewed the governor of MO. I can't believe how he dodged her questions about why certain things were happening the way they were. Oh wait a minute.......yes I can. It's a prerequisite for public office, right?
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 4:48pm
On Meet the Press this morning, Andrea Mitchell interviewed the governor of MO. I can't believe how he dodged her questions about why certain things were happening the way they were. Oh wait a minute.......yes I can. It's a prerequisite for public office, right?I am not very familiar with Missouri or that area of the country so I can't generalize here. It does seem to me that the officials in the limelight in Missouri thus far have a real knack for dodging questions, evading issues, and doing things on their own schedule. If peace is truly desired, this is going to have to be toned down a bit on their part. This is not a one way street and I get the definite impression that these officials don't understand this. I think this is where both the media and also social media come in handy - spreading this perception via the body language, words, and actions of these officials for the world to see - especially when words don't match actions as in the case of Ron Johnson pledging just a few days ago not to use tear gas on protestors and last night it was used. And of course it's all over the net for the world to see. On the one hand, I remember the governor of Missouri stating just a day or two ago that the eyes of the world are on Ferguson - some glances are on him for dodging questions, too - does he really think that that is going to help his side of the equation at this point to behave in such a way? Rob
I find this part frustrating:
the cop said he didn't know the kid had just robed the store, but the kid did.
Everybody recognizes that, but the officials won't buck up and state the obvious.
This cop is very angry and running on adrenalin (he just got shot after all, or shot at) and he keeps shooting at the kid until he drops dead.
This of course is the key issue. The officer supposedly says Brown advanced toward him. There is a lot of conflicting testimony but there is some that corroborate the officer's description. Tough job for a jury.
http://youtu.be/prrydnTAly0
Did the cop actually get shot inside his car? I thought they just struggled for the gun. I didn't know the cop got shot.
I'm sure there are people who are "witnesses" (supposedly) to this event, who just want to stand up for their fellow black person. Like you said Peggy, I'm not sure we'll ever know the complete truth.
But people need to understand that these situations are extremely emotionally high-powered and happen incredibly fast. Many times, it's "them or me" as far as the police go. You can die in an instant. Not everyone has the same emotional timing, as far as waiting a few seconds more to shoot....until you're sure you aren't the one who's going to die.
I just hope they don't make the policeman who shot him, a scapegoat, to avoid riots.
In the Travon Martin case, sure the kid might have been a punk, but he WASN'T being a punk when he was executed by George Zimmerman.
Zimmerman claimed that the kid attacked him, presented evidence at the trial, and the jury seems to have believed it. So it was perhaps not so simple as "an execution". I was not there, neither were you, and none of us were sitting in that jury box listing to the testimony and sifting through the evidence.
The cop, truly angered now, shoots at the kid, twice I think. The kid then stops, turns and puts his hands up. This cop is very angry and running on adrenalin (he just got shot after all, or shot at) and he keeps shooting at the kid until he drops dead.
The officer wouldn't even have to be angered. I've done a lot of police training. And weapons-retention training. When you get an officer in a fight-for-his-life situation, as a gun grab is, you can easily push him into a mental state where time is altered, vision and sound altered, fine muscle control lost, and a dozen other things happen due to the increased heart rate/bp and dump of the cascade of hormones. Cognition and emotional response are altered.
You, or anyone, can't stop this process on a dime once it gets started. (There are a few superhuman sorts out there who can, but they are incredibly rare.) You don't get to grab for a cop's gun, then throw your hands up and say "I surrender" and expect it to turn out well, even though movies may have established this cultural expectation.
If a trial results from this incident, and the claim is made that there was some sort of struggle, expect to see lots of medical types testifying about the human reaction to this sort of stress.
I just hope they don't make the policeman who shot him, a scapegoat, to avoid riots.
I think they already did.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 5:10pm
I think they already did.I don't know that the cop involved is a scrapegoat as you say just yet but.....I would agree that his life going forward is never going to be quite the same regardless of how this plays out. I understand from reading online that he cleared out from his house and his current location is a big secret, and now that his photo has been released, yes I can see some security concerns. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 5:18pm
Something I really believe that is missing from this thread if I may? Put in my two cents worth? Or maybe with all my posts on this thread so far it's more like my seven cents worth? There's a problem here that I encountered all my years as a server that used to drive me nuts and so so so often made me feel no hope for the future of the human race. The problem is that of perception. I very quickly realized that as a waiter, if I wanted to stay employed, my take on any issue that arose meant nothing and it was all about the perception of the guest, unless the guest really did something crazy I could have them ejected for. This carries over into Ferguson as one problem facing law enforcement there now is one of perception, coupled with racial tension. Arresting those two journalists earlier in the week and teargasing in general, whether called for or not - not going to help with the overall public perception of Ferguson law enforcement and now of the Governor or the State Highway Patrol. They really need to get a check on their behavior as public perception is not very high of them overall right now.....whether or not this is right could be disputed for days and days. My point here is this perception issue? Whether it's valid or not is besides the point - the reality is that it exists and needs to be catered to. Like it or not. Rob
I understand from reading online that he cleared out from his house and his current location is a big secret, and now that his photo has been released, yes I can see some security concerns. Rob
Any bets on how long before The New Black Panther Party issues a $10,000 reward for his head, like they did for Zimmerman?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/03/26/149399082/new-black-panther-party-offers-10k-bounty-for-george-zimmerman
My point here is this perception issue? Whether it's valid or not is besides the point - the reality is that it exists and needs to be catered to.
Ask yourself, when looking at the social media frenzy and "perception" - cui bono....
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 5:25pm
Any bets on how long before The New Black Panther Party issues a $10,000 reward for his head, like they did for Zimmerman?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/03/26/149399082/new-black-panther-party-offers-10k-bounty-for-george-zimmermanDon't drop dead of shock on this one here Bae but I'm going to agree with you here. In a way. If the NPB does this, this is far excessive behavior on the other side of the equation.....definitely not helping the black community or helping find some kind of justice for the death of the young man. This to me is even worse than the assault/arrest on the two journalists in Ferguson by local police - who knows how much will have to be paid out in those legal settlements, btw - as it condones yet another death. I'm not ok with that as having the cop dead is not going to bring back Michael Brown. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 5:34pm
Ask yourself, when looking at the social media frenzy and "perception" - cui bono....As a waiter for so many years, constantly and continually vulnerable to the concept of guest perception, I can understand the concept and how BOTH sides here are not helping their side. Does it help the black community that last night there was more looting and rioting? Does it help local law enforcement that those two journalists were assaulted and arrested at the Ferguson McDonald's? Neither side here is innocent and there don't seem to be any angels here - here's the BUT......with all the economic inequality in the US today it's going to be easier for many to side AGAINST the cops, regardless of race. There is a perception many have of general unfairness in the US these days - it could be debated for days and days if this is valid, but the perception is indeed there, and perception unfortunately becomes fact to the person perceiving it. As for the upcoming legal proceedings, I will be interested in the outcome of course but have absolutely no faith or trust or belief in the legal system.
INTERESTING ASIDE: When did I lose my faith in the legal system? When OJ Simpson walked free back in the mid 90's. I realized then that legal outcomes could be bought and I lost all faith in the legal system. Who did I side with during the Simpson trial? WITH THE PROSECUTION. Believe it or not. My point here is that this is not an automatic race thing for me. Rob
Neither side here is innocent ...
Consider that it is entirely possible that both "sides" are pawns. Seeing only two sides here may be a mistake as well. Cui bono.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 5:40pm
Consider that it is entirely possible that both "sides" are pawns. Seeing only two sides here may be a mistake as well. Cui bono.Interesting post here, Bae.....How many sides do you see? Rob
iris lilies
8-17-14, 5:47pm
Interesting post here, Bae.....How many sides do you see? Rob
The Ferguson governing establishment has different self-interests than the policemen who shot the kid. It's not as though he and they are aligned, necessarily.
And of course, within that establishment would be many points of view and self-interests: the police chief, the mayor, aldermen.
And don't forget the police union, the local chamber of commerce, local real estate interests, local/regional development folks, national "community organizers" who live for these sorts of events, political parties of all levels with axes to grind, media that wants to sell clicks, the Illuminati and the Bohemian Grovers, Know-Nothings, anarchists, socialists, facists, fnord, and the League of Women Voters.
http://images.unurthed.com/Campbell-Great-Seal-of-the-United-States-127.jpg
iris lilies
8-17-14, 6:09pm
And don't forget the police union, the local chamber of commerce, local real estate interests, local/regional development folks, national "community organizers" who live for these sorts of events, political parties of all levels with axes to grind, media that wants to sell clicks, the Illuminati and the Bohemian Grovers, Know-Nothings, anarchists, socialists, facists, fnord, and the League of Women Voters.
http://images.unurthed.com/Campbell-Great-Seal-of-the-United-States-127.jpg
yep, all of that. The Police union is taking potshots at the St. Louis City Police Chief for his remarks about this series of events. There are lots of players, sides, points of view.
Another one is this: The county prosecutor who is in charge of handling the case lost his father, a police officer, when that officer was killed on duty by a black man. The county prosecutor was 12 years old when that happened.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 6:28pm
yep, all of that. The Police union is taking potshots at the St. Louis City Police Chief for his remarks about this series of events. There are lots of players, sides, points of view.
Another one is this: The county prosecutor who is in charge of handling the case lost his father, a police officer, when that officer was killed on duty by a black man. The county prosecutor was 12 years old when that happened.Seems like the more we learn about all the details, the more the plot thickens. Rob
What good is an autopsy?
The nature of the gunshot wounds will provide some important physical evidence to help evaluate the likelihood of the various scenarios.
There may also be other physical evidence reflecting upon the nature of the conflict.
I don't know that the cop involved is a scrapegoat as you say just yet but.....
Well, let's see what our friends in the media have done recently to help:
CNN broadcast a video that showed the house, including the street number, of the officer.
USA Today named the neighborhood. The Washington Post named the street where he lives.
Yahoo News named the neighborhood where he lives, and published a photograph of him.
The UK Daily Mail named the neighborhood, posted photos of the fellow, and described the house.
Happy hunting to Rob's Mob.
The nature of the gunshot wounds will provide some important physical evidence to help evaluate the likelihood of the various scenarios.
There may also be other physical evidence reflecting upon the nature of the conflict.
It just seemed unnecessary, considering you can probably see entrance and exit wounds externally, and figure out the directions and proximity to the policeman.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 7:50pm
Well, let's see what our friends in the media have done recently to help:
CNN broadcast a video that showed the house, including the street number, of the officer.
USA Today named the neighborhood. The Washington Post named the street where he lives.
Yahoo News named the neighborhood where he lives, and published a photograph of him.
The UK Daily Mail named the neighborhood, posted photos of the fellow, and described the house.
Happy hunting to Rob's Mob.It's not my mob, Bae. Before that cop pulled the trigger, he should have been aware of the issues of perception like I stated a few posts back, of how vulnerable he would be to social media - or in your examples, the media in general - and also how vulnerable he would be to growing inequality in the US and how it would impact perceptions of his actions. In short, this cop does not strike me as someone who thought the implications through before firing. Is that someone you want as a cop being a taxpayer, for the simple reason of litigation risk? And yes, society in the US has really deteriorated to this point and become this crazy. Working in the service industry and living in a lower income neighborhood I see it every day. Rob
But at least Rob's mob does sound catchy and it rhymes, I'll give you that much.
It just seemed unnecessary, considering you can probably see entrance and exit wounds externally, and figure out the directions and proximity to the policeman.
You have to get your hands dirty to get the data.
Before that cop pulled the trigger, he should have been aware of the issues of perception like I stated a few posts back, of how vulnerable he would be to social media - or in your examples, the media in general - and also how vulnerable he would be to growing inequality in the US and how it would impact perceptions of his actions. In short, this cop does not strike me as someone who thought the implications through before firing.
If, as is claimed by some, the fellow was grappling for the officer's gun or indicating an intent to do so, how much time would you have the officer devote to performing this analysis, Rob?
How much weight does he give to the value of his own life and going home to his family at the end of his shift against the implications of the Twitterverse?
iris lilies
8-17-14, 7:59pm
It just seemed unnecessary, considering you can probably see entrance and exit wounds externally, and figure out the directions and proximity to the policeman.
No! I can't imagine not conducting a careful forensic autopsy in this case, and I agree with having multiple agencies involved so that no one agency comes to blame. No doubt there will be differing conclusions drawn, however.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 8:30pm
If, as is claimed by some, the fellow was grappling for the officer's gun or indicating an intent to do so, how much time would you have the officer devote to performing this analysis, Rob?
How much weight does he give to the value of his own life and going home to his family at the end of his shift against the implications of the Twitterverse?This realization, realizing what's going on in society and how it could work against him, should have been programmed into his brain after six years on the force Bae.....Inequality is only getting worse, social media has been around for a few years now, and the concept of perceptions in any kind of position where you deal with the public is nothing new. Basically there should have been a mental checklist in his head before he ever fired - if for no other reason, to save his pension and his job. In other words, he could have CYA'd much better.
About the grappling for the gun - why not just taser then? Does anyone know if this cop had a taser? That could have subdued Brown and saved all this drama and upcoming multi-million dollar lawsuits. Brown could then have been arrested had the cop known of the robbery and taken to jail and processed for a felony and been treated at least neutrally. We'd never even know his name if he'd just been tasered. I realized that Micheal Brown was 6 4 and 292 lbs so this could sure intimidate but I just don't know about shooting him and killing him - why not just go for his leg, something to hinder him, if that was totally necessary? Gotta say I'm not seeing the logic in shooting him dead. Prosecuting for robbery/strong arming the clerk, yes - but shooting him dead, no. Rob
rodeosweetheart
8-17-14, 8:38pm
I think there is a real chasm between peaceful protest and the video that IL posted of the looting of the store in her neighborhood. If that were my neighborhood, you bet I want the police there restoring order.
If a perp (or a peaceful protester, for that matter) grabs a policeman's gun, what does he think is going to happen? If this was the same fellow strong arming the store clerk, then he looked pretty intense and/or hopped up to me. Big guy, potentially on some kind of drug,. grabbing my gun?
Were I the type to carry a gun, and I am not, that person would probably get shot.
Especially if he shot me first.
But back to my original thought--would any of us think, oh, yeah, this is fine, this is protest, people smashing glass, people destroying other people's businesses, laughing mobs looting together--seriously, what kind of protest is this?
You really do not want the police there, dispersing this kind of mob action?
About the grappling for the gun - why not just taser then?
If indeed he grabbed for the cop's gun this was by far the most likely way it was going to play out. Cops, logically, will do whatever is necessary to live to go home at night. If I was a cop and a nearly 300 pound dude (or even a regular size guy) grabbed for my gun you'd better believe I'd make sure that I grabbed it first. Grabbing a taser (assuming he even had one) and leaving my gun available for the dude to grab would not be an option.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 9:09pm
If indeed he grabbed for the cop's gun this was by far the most likely way it was going to play out. Cops, logically, will do whatever is necessary to live to go home at night. If I was a cop and a nearly 300 pound dude (or even a regular size guy) grabbed for my gun you'd better believe I'd make sure that I grabbed it first. Grabbing a taser (assuming he even had one) and leaving my gun available for the dude to grab would not be an option.I think it's going to be very interesting to hear what this cop says vs. what the witness who was in the store with the deceased says and then see how both sides attempt to discredit each other. And there seem to be no shortage of discrediting factors on both sides of this fiasco.....This one I will be following to it's end out of intense interest. For the cast of characters alone and their numerous mis-steps this one is worth following.
On this one I will admit I have a hard time being completely objective as I have seen both racial profiling and police brutality in action before - but not directed towards myself, toward neighborhood Hispanics here in Phoenix. I can understand that if someone goes after a cop's gun, survival instincts are going to come into play....but...but....but to shoot and kill someone who had their hands up in the air and was unarmed? I just don't know. It's hard to be objective on this one as I have learned to fear and distrust the police and I have learned that "justice" is doled out based on social class in this country. I.E. Have the right skin color and the money for a good attorney, (or maybe just the money for a good attorney) your consequences tend to be less than those who don't have this going for them. Best course of action is not do anything to get into trouble in the first place of course, I'd agree with that. Rob
Rob, let me get this right...a cop and guy are in a tussle, the guy is going for the cop's gun, and you want the cop to taser the guy? Or shoot him in the leg?
iris lilies
8-17-14, 9:11pm
...You seem happy that that officer has been thrown to the mob, before the justice process has even had a chance to begin rolling. Madness.
Not to mention the effort by Anonymous, the web terrorists, who attempted to intimidate the St. Louis County police chief by publishing all kids of personal data about him including photos of his children and information about their school. That is wicked.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 9:24pm
Rob, let me get this right...a cop and guy are in a tussle, the guy is going for the cop's gun, and you want the cop to taser the guy? Or shoot him in the leg?Shooting to kill seems excessive to me, yes. And we don't know if this thug - and I will call the deceased a thug - went after the cop's gun or not. So far it's just the cop's word against the word of the thug's friend. Shooting to kill? It ends life. Would tasering not subdue this thug? I don't know, I've never been tasered, but isn't that what the general concept is about? And if the life of Michael Brown doesn't mean a lot to others out there - and he does seem unsavory now, I won't deny that - don't others care about the cost of the upcoming legal drama, numerous lawsuits, large pay outs that are going to be taking place here? Perhaps lost convention revenue, lost tourism revenue from foreigners to the US - there are so many other factors here other than one or two black and white questions (black and white here having nothing to do with races involved). I see a lot of gray area and a lot to fear and an indictment in general on American society.....
Please remember as I type this I have been police brutality and racial profiling taking place here in Phoenix. I know it exists, I've seen it in action before.
OTOH, I will admit that the authorities have not had the chance to formally tell their side of the story and they do deserve that as per law and they have been dammed on social media. Social media has not damned them for me to be honest, like I said I've seen police brutality against Hispanics and I no longer wish to engage with the police period, not even in a pleasant way. I've totally lost respect and trust for them, and in the neighborhood I live in, you will not find one law abiding citizen that doesn't feel the same way. Perhaps this is a social class thing, I don't know? My experience is that lower income people in general don't trust the police or the legal system. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 9:24pm
Not to mention the effort by Anonymous, the web terrorists, who attempted to intimidate the St. Louis County police chief by publishing all kids of personal data about him including photos of his children and information about their school. That is wicked.Now this I agree with 100%. This is wicked and crossing the line in my book. And quite scary, too. Rob
I guess you're right about the autopsy. But it will be interesting to see if it shows any surprises. I wonder what his blood will show. It was a little weird listening to Brown's family's lawyer using bad english. Is that just accepted as dialect?
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 9:33pm
I guess you're right about the autopsy. But it will be interesting to see if it shows any surprises. I wonder what his blood will show. It was a little weird listening to Brown's family's lawyer using bad english. Is that just accepted as dialect?Just curious, will an autopsy show any drug use? Will they test for illegal subtances as part of an autopsy? A poster above mentioned the possibility that Michael Brown could have been on drugs at the time - not that that excuses anything that may have happened nor his actions on video in the convenience store - I'm just curious if a test will be run to see if there was indeed illegal drug use? Rob
PS I can understand more in the case of someone being on crystal meth and having those bugged out eyes and being 292 lbs and 6 4 - I can see why more survival instincts might take over in a cop, especially if he had kids.
Would tasering not subdue this thug?
No. Not if the thug's trying to grab your,gun. You'd better grab the gun first in that case. That doesn't leave a hand to grab a taser.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 9:46pm
No. Not if the thug's trying to grab your,gun. You'd better grab the gun first in that case. That doesn't leave a hand to grab a taser.Fair enough. I thought tasering basically immobilizes you temporarily so that you can't move - that's why I brought it up. If I'm wrong, so be it. But I still don't understand shoot to kill. How about shoot to hinder, if absolutely necessary? I'd much rather not even know Micheal Brown's name and have him sitting in a jail cell alive right now facing felony charges than have him dead and have the eyes of the world focused on all this drama - and I see huge missteps on both sides as I've said before. Something else that no one seems to be posting - now that the world is so globalized, and any drama shoots off across the Internet in 0 to 60 flat, and given that some of the world has negative opinions already about the US - how is this going to affect us economically, politically, reputation-wise? I see much more depth to this issue and many more consequences than was this justifiable? I'm afraid the being found justifiable will not silence the Internet, or social media, or the black community, or others who don't have much faith or trust in the system to begin with, or the opinions of the rest of the world with whom we trade. This situation is just one big headache and I don't see any happy endings here.....not even for the cop if he is let off scott free, how could his life ever be the same again? Rob
I'm sure they'll test for drugs.
I just happened to think of an incident which occurred in the little town in the middle o' nowhere, where I once lived, that has practically no ethnic minorities--maybe a dozen or so individuals now; but that wasn't the case in this incident. Anyway, about 20 years ago, this local boy, who was prolly 6'4, about 280#, went on a rampage because he was mad at someone. He went to their home, and smashed the windows in their car, and barged into their house, and threatened them. After he left, the people called the police, and an officer intercepted the guy at an intersection. The guy got out of his car as the officer was getting out of his cruiser, and a confrontation ensued; Well, the cop didn't draw his gun; the big guy was not armed just BIG and HOSTILE--but the cop had this baton, that has a small handle on the side, and apparently some training in how to use it. Though the cop was considerably smaller than the "suspect", he was able to put the guy on the ground and handcuff him, simply by applying the baton across the guys knees. Or so it said in the newspaper accounts. Maybe they meant some other part of his anatomy. Ha. But, Everyone left the incident, still alive. It makes me think that the Ferguson Police, given that they apparently have to deal with belligerants MORE frequently than the small-town I was describing, could be better prepared to use non-lethal techniques to subdue individuals., in lieu of a gun as their first line of defense. This would hopefully keep the likes of certain opportunistic demagogues, as well as lawyers and the Media off their backs.
Sweet Jesus, Rob, the average cop isn't as much of a marksman as you would seem to believe. Many cops only shoot once a year, when they qualify with their duty weapon(s) and maybe the pistols their agency allows them to carry off-duty. Ammo is expensive (the cheapest I've found is $13/50 rounds of 9mm target rounds). Due to budget cuts, there isn't as much training as there might have been in the past. Cops often only shoot more if they're into firearms. I shoot more than the average cop.
Shooting at a kneecap on someone running at you? Danged difficult. The average "hit rate" of cops is something like 17% from the figures I've read.
Tasers don't necessarily immobilize someone.
Toxicology tests are always part of an autopsy.
Obviously, nothing said is going to change your mind. Cops are all hell bent on evil, to suppress the lower class is what I take away from your posts. Sounds to me like you would be thrilled if more riots broke out. After all, the "haves" would have their stuff/businesses destroyed and the "have nots" might get some more of the pie.
You don't "shoot to kill" or "shoot to wound". You "shoot to stop". Handgun bullets have very poor performance, often multiple rounds are required to stop an aggressive person, often the stop doesn't occur immediately *if at all*, and you are trying to fire while under stress and avoiding being killed yourself.
Rob, I'll be happy to meet you at the Seattle Police range sometime, and run you through some drills with simulated training munitions. Guns don't work in real life like they do in the movies.
You are proposing a standard of performance that doesn't occur in real life.
I'll also show you some weapons retention drills, we can see how well you can access and deploy your taser while someone is grabbing for your gun. (Hint, most officers in-the-know carry a knife they can access with their off hand, so they can cut their assailant off the firearm, while keeping it firmly anchored in the holster with their strong-side hand.)
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 10:59pm
I'm sure they'll test for drugs.Good. If he tests positive for something like meth, more of a clearer picture may emerge - at least in my mind - of what transpired. And I'd be a little more sympathetic to the officer involved. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 11:01pm
I just happened to think of an incident which occurred in the little town in the middle o' nowhere, where I once lived, that has practically no ethnic minorities--maybe a dozen or so individuals now; but that wasn't the case in this incident. Anyway, about 20 years ago, this local boy, who was prolly 6'4, about 280#, went on a rampage because he was mad at someone. He went to their home, and smashed the windows in their car, and barged into their house, and threatened them. After he left, the people called the police, and an officer intercepted the guy at an intersection. The guy got out of his car as the officer was getting out of his cruiser, and a confrontation ensued; Well, the cop didn't draw his gun; the big guy was not armed just BIG and HOSTILE--but the cop had this baton, that has a small handle on the side, and apparently some training in how to use it. Though the cop was considerably smaller than the "suspect", he was able to put the guy on the ground and handcuff him, simply by applying the baton across the guys knees. Or so it said in the newspaper accounts. Maybe they meant some other part of his anatomy. Ha. But, Everyone left the incident, still alive. It makes me think that the Ferguson Police, given that they apparently have to deal with belligerants MORE frequently than the small-town I was describing, could be better prepared to use non-lethal techniques to subdue individuals., in lieu of a gun as their first line of defense. This would hopefully keep the likes of certain opportunistic demagogues, as well as lawyers and the Media off their backs.Thank you, Packy. I agree with this gist of your post here. Also about keeping the lawyers and media off their backs, too. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 11:16pm
Sweet Jesus, Rob, the average cop isn't as much of a marksman as you would seem to believe. Many cops only shoot once a year, when they qualify with their duty weapon(s) and maybe the pistols their agency allows them to carry off-duty. Ammo is expensive (the cheapest I've found is $13/50 rounds of 9mm target rounds). Due to budget cuts, there isn't as much training as there might have been in the past. Cops often only shoot more if they're into firearms. I shoot more than the average cop.
Shooting at a kneecap on someone running at you? Danged difficult. The average "hit rate" of cops is something like 17% from the figures I've read.
Tasers don't necessarily immobilize someone.
Toxicology tests are always part of an autopsy.
Obviously, nothing said is going to change your mind. Cops are all hell bent on evil, to suppress the lower class is what I take away from your posts. Sounds to me like you would be thrilled if more riots broke out. After all, the "haves" would have their stuff/businesses destroyed and the "have nots" might get some more of the pie.Ummmm......consider me the one person on a jury who would hold everyone and everything up and question everything. That would be me in a case like this. And I don't believe all cops are bad, and I don't believe this cop started his day with the intention to kill someone, and I don't believe that all cops are hell bent on evil. Truly this statement here is true. That said, research has shown that folks in minority/lower income neighborhoods take more grief from the police and are sentenced for longer periods of time and are more often sent to jail/prison when innocent than better off folks are. This I deeply have issues with and we're talking about the loss of a life here, even if the deceased was a thug. What happened to this society's stance on rehabilitation that it once held when I was younger? Has society no compassion at all? And no, I would not be thrilled if more riots broke out - I'd be more embarrassed to be an American is what I'd be if this took place. Sad but true. Why on earth would you think I'd want riots to break out? As far as the have nots getting more of the pie, looting and rioting is not the answer, please believe me when I say I understand this.
As far as changing my mind - didn't I admit the deceased was a thug? Didn't I mention a few posts back that the authorities do have a right to state their case in court? Have you not seen some changes in my posts as more details have been revealed? Have I not said that I see huge missteps on BOTH sides? What you are seeing here in just typical lower class mistrust of the police and the legal system - I will always have that based on what I have seen in my days. BUT did I not say back during the OJ trial I sided with the prosecution? Nothing has changed there, today I would still side with the prosecution based on the evidence presented and the facts brought to light. It's always possible I may change my mind here, who knows? Based on what we know NOW, I say excessive force, especially with the militarization of the police after the death and due to the journalists being assaulted/arrested.
Consider me a breath of fresh air around here - I'm definitely one who is willing to take the unpopular stance and I'm also very true to my upbringing/class. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 11:21pm
You don't "shoot to kill" or "shoot to wound". You "shoot to stop". Handgun bullets have very poor performance, often multiple rounds are required to stop an aggressive person, often the stop doesn't occur immediately *if at all*, and you are trying to fire while under stress and avoiding being killed yourself.
Rob, I'll be happy to meet you at the Seattle Police range sometime, and run you through some drills with simulated training munitions. Guns don't work in real life like they do in the movies.
You are proposing a standard of performance that doesn't occur in real life.
I'll also show you some weapons retention drills, we can see how well you can access and deploy your taser while someone is grabbing for your gun. (Hint, most officers in-the-know carry a knife they can access with their off hand, so they can cut their assailant off the firearm, while keeping it firmly anchored in the holster with their strong-side hand.)Tell you what, Bae - I'm applying for work next year at Olympic National Park, hoping to work the season there bartending with your state's incredible minimum wage and tips. I would spend a few days with a close friend in Seattle and then visit with another friend for a day and I'd have time to meet. If I get the job, do lets do this. I mean it.
You are right, I really know nothing about guns and weapons, and I don't have a problem admitting that. Have I not stated what took place when I was much younger and why that has turned me against guns as an adult? This is another reason it is such a big deal to me that this thug was unarmed. But no, I don't know much about guns and I do believe you do. Rob
iris lilies
8-17-14, 11:26pm
Good. If he tests positive for something like meth, more of a clearer picture may emerge - at least in my mind - of what transpired. And I'd be a little more sympathetic to the officer involved. Rob
He's not going to test positive for meth. Maybe weed. Kids use those cigarellos things to stuff full of marijuana.
gimmethesimplelife
8-17-14, 11:30pm
He's not going to test positive for meth. Maybe weed. Kids use those cigarellos things to stuff full of marijuana.True...I'm told they do this in Phoenix, too. But with the video that was released, I'd understand the whole sequence of events better and see the officer's side more if he did test positive for some serious kind of drug. Meth comes to mind as it so often leads to violence in those that use it but other drugs have this effect, too. Rob
Ummmm......consider me the one person on a jury who would hold everyone and everything up and question everything. That would be me in a case like this.
The nice thing about our jury system is that the accused is *innocent* until the jury decides he is guilty. So a lone holdout cannot convict - it generally takes the whole jury to do that.
The officer doesn't have to prove he is innocent. The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty. That's a pretty high burden of proof, as it should be. I don't think Twitter and Facebook work that way though.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 12:29am
Well, well, well.....I just googled and found out that the police in Ferguson have once again crossed the line and arrested two more journalists but let them go after two minutes and threatened one photographer with shooting him if he did not stop photographing. Uh huh. And we pay taxes for these people's pensions? And I'm supposed to be ok with this? No comprende. Also tear gas was used again and well before the midnight curfew. It seems as if this really is not going to go away and the authorities are bound and determined to make things as nasty as possible by throwing their weight around. Heaven help us as a country is all I can say. Not good and sure does not inspire much hope for the future. I'll keep plugging away and doing what I can but this makes me so ashamed of America - this is just going over the line. And what really gets me - don't these people know, on both sides actually, that their moronic behavior is going to be seen by the entire world? Heaven help this country, I think it's gone beyond mere mortals control sometimes. Such as now. Rob
PS Forgot to add that journalists claim they are being manipulated and corralled into certain set areas - this really scares me. What's going on that they don't want the world to know?
Well, well, well.....I just googled and found out that the police in Ferguson have once again crossed the line and arrested two more journalists but let them go after two minutes and threatened one photographer with shooting him if he did not stop photographing.
Here's the video of that one. Can you see the officer's lips moving?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/17/police-threaten-reporters-ferguson_n_5686674.html
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 12:45am
Here's the video of that one. Can you see the officer's lips moving?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/17/police-threaten-reporters-ferguson_n_5686674.htmlThere is a video on yahoo.com news with audio of a cop yelling at a reporter - Get the F out of here and get that light off or you are getting shot with this.....you might want to go to yahoo.news and check this out? This is the America I live in fear of and it most certainly exists. Turns out that Molotov cocktails were hurled at the police by protestors - and let me stop here and say THAT WAS A VERY STUPID MOVE ON THEIR PART. There is no way around that one. That was inexcusably stupid on the part of the protestors.
That does not however give the police the right to terrorize innocent journalists covering the story on the ground. For that reason alone, how can I have sympathy for the authorities? Stopping the molotovs, yes, I'm down with that. No problem there. But did they have to take it to that level with the journalists, possibly inspiring yet more lawsuits and exposing more of America and what it can be to the entire world? I'm really seeing a marked lack of common sense here on BOTH sides and until things calm down, whenever that is, I don't see much hope. I'm just hoping this isn't the spark that throws the nation into uproar. We'll see as time goes on I guess. I do feel a great deal of fear at the police mistreatment of reporters, and this no longer seems like isolated behavior. Really no different from a third world country going down. Rob
iris lilies
8-18-14, 1:21am
Maybe it would be better if the police just left the area. See what happens then.
I have been sitting here watching live video feed, for the past 20 minutes, of looting of the Ferguson Market where Michal Brown committed a robbery. The police are purposely staying away. Looters are carrying out liquor, cigarettes, lots and lots of stuff. Now they are carrying out cash registers.
This market is owned by an immigrant family.
Now someone has shown up to defend the store, has a gun. The news people are saying that he is there to keep people out of the store. They said there is another store that's being looted and the owner appear there with a Glock to defend his store, said everyone get out of the store or I'll shoot.
This is so progressive...
Rob's inequality problem is being addressed by direct democracy, this is the best of all possible worlds, eh?
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:28am
I have been sitting here watching live feed, for the past 20 minutes, of looting of the Ferguson Market where Michal Brown committed a robbery. The police are purposely staying away. They are carrying out liquor, cigarettes, lots and lots of stuff. Now they are carrying out cash registers.
This market is owned by an immigrant family.
Now someone has shown up to defend the store, has a gun. The news people are saying that he is there to keep people out of the store. They said there is another store that's being looted and the owner appear there with a gun to defend his store.Well that's just wrong that they are doing that. That is not helping themselves at all and I feel for that immigrant family, caught up in this fiasco when they innocently open a business and try to make a living. Would you agree that the immigrant family are victims here? Rob
iris lilies
8-18-14, 1:59am
Well that's just wrong that they are doing that. That is not helping themselves at all and I feel for that immigrant family, caught up in this fiasco when they innocently open a business and try to make a living. Would you agree that the immigrant family are victims here? Rob
Of course the store owner is a victim.
But I will bet you that the mainstream media's story tomorrow will be how a few looters broke into stores and main protestors tried to stop them, tried to reason with them.
In this particular newsfeed I saw about 20 looters (or maybe it was ten of them running back and forth from their car to the store.) And I saw a group of 6 men, standing 15 feet from the door, drinking, talking, laughing, and occasionally putting their hands in the air (now the universal Mike Brown support symbol.)
Certainly I don't expect citizens to perform the work of police in stopping the looting. But I didn't see those 6 citizens do anything other than watch the show in front of them.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 2:22am
Of course the store owner is a victim.
But I will bet you that the mainstream media's story tomorrow will be how a few looters broke into stores and main protestors tried to stop them, tried to reason with them.
In this particular newsfeed I saw about 20 looters (or maybe it was ten of them running back and forth from their car to the store.) And I saw a group of 6 men, standing 15 feet from the door, drinking, talking, laughing, and occasionally putting their hands in the air (now the universal Mike Brown support symbol.)
Certainly I don't expect citizens to perform the work of police in stopping the looting. But I didn't see those 6 citizens do anything other than watch the show in front of them.Tell you what IL, I'm about to call it a day. Tomorrow when I get up I will look at how the mainstream media has portrayed the looting here and see if the mainstream media minimizes it or not. Rob
Came back much later to add - Couldn't sleep so I surfed online for awhile and saw the latest - the National Guard has been called in to Ferguson now. Please correct me if I am wrong but if directed to do so, can't the National Guard shoot and kill on sight anyone they see committing a crime? I think I remember reading that somewhere but I'm not sure. If that's true, I hope this moves works to quiet the rioting and looting....and doesn't cause more defiance and more young dead black men (or women). Yet another plot twist in this drama, maybe we should be getting used to plot twists in this case by this point? Rob
Please correct me if I am wrong but if directed to do so, can't the National Guard shoot and kill on sight anyone they see committing a crime?
Consider yourself corrected. I think a basic understanding of the rules for deploying lethal force are in order. That might clear up a lot of your misconceptions.
I just read that New Zealand is sending us human rights teams. http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/amnesty-international-takes-unprecedented-us-action-in-fergu?s=mobile
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 12:12pm
I just read that New Zealand is sending us human rights teams. http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/amnesty-international-takes-unprecedented-us-action-in-fergu?s=mobileWow. What a message to send to the rest of the world - that the United States needs human rights teams sent to calm things down. Wow. Just wow. I am in awe, total awe, of how little common sense I have seen - overall - from the authorities in this case. Amazing. Next time I hear any news program speak of looting and violence somewhere like Caracas, I'll be shaking my head and thinking - we've got our own mess to clean up, why not make news by focusing on THAT? Rob
It just seemed unnecessary, considering you can probably see entrance and exit wounds externally, and figure out the directions and proximity to the policeman.They may also want to look at things like probable brain dysfunction caused by disease and/or drug use that may have caused him (Brown) to act irrationally. Given his size, he might have been a high school football player who suffered head trauma at some point. But mostly they will want to rule out things rather then look for things. Best to be thorough in a case like this.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 12:24pm
They may also want to look at things like probable brain dysfunction caused by disease and/or drug use that may have caused him (Brown) to act irrationally. Given his size, he might have been a high school football player who suffered head trauma at some point. But mostly they will want to rule out things rather then look for things. Best to be thorough in a case like this.Hey Spartana, are you still travelling? If so where are you checking in from? Just curious. Rob
First of all.......we don't NEED Amnesty International to "help" us.
And why is everyone ignoring the fact that (yes......a young black male was shot....but we still haven't gotten all the FACTS yet), the police are dealing with some violent people who are throwing those home-made explosives, looting innocent people's stores, etc., etc.? I don't understand why even the media is trying to make this look bad for the police who are trying (at this point in time) to control the violence at this point.
And I suggest those members of Amnesty International maybe try living among some of people who are causing most of these problems......then we'll talk about love and peace. Why does it seem like everyone is supporting the criminals?? Yes, I know the kid was shot 6 times. But still, we don't know the facts yet.
About the grappling for the gun - why not just taser then?
Taser aren't always effective. Things like heavy clothing can effect them, the barbs don't always make proper contact, and some people can just pull them out - and a big guy like Brown may have been able to do that. So if someone is grappling with you for your firearm, and possibly overpowering you, then going for your taser is probably the last thing you want to do. Protecting your firearm from being grabbed by an assailant means not only protecting yourself from possible harm, but protecting innocent bystanders from possibly being shot by the assailant as well.
And we don't know if this thug - and I will call the deceased a thug - went after the cop's gun or not. And we don't know that he didn't. Or that he did retreat and have his hands in the air when the cop shot him. So until forensic evidence about the gun wounds is done, we don't know anything and speculation on either side as to what happened, and why it happened as it did, is just that...speculation. The eye witnesses seem to be biased IMHO, although their statements are extremely important and, if what they say happened is backed by forensic evidence, then should shed a huge amount of light on the situation. Otherwise, unless the cop had a camera on him or his vehicle, or someone else did, then it's all up in the air.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 12:45pm
First of all.......we don't NEED Amnesty International to "help" us.
And why is everyone ignoring the fact that (yes......a young black male was shot....but we still haven't gotten all the FACTS yet), the police are dealing with some violent people who are throwing those home-made explosives, looting innocent people's stores, etc., etc.? I don't understand why even the media is trying to make this look bad for the police who are trying (at this point in time) to control the violence at this point.
And I suggest those members of Amnesty International maybe try living among some of people who are causing most of these problems......then we'll talk about love and peace. Why does it seem like everyone is supporting the criminals?? Yes, I know the kid was shot 6 times. But still, we don't know the facts yet.I'm not "supporting" the criminals per se. I understand that on BOTH sides there have been major mis steps and events showing a lack of common sense. I also am against rioting and looting - what possible good is going to come of rioting and looting, especially now since it will be posted online and go around the world in zero to sixty flat?
Having said that, in the America I know, one sides instinctively against the authorities. As I've posted before, I've seen police brutality and racial profiling at work before here in Phoenix and I just don't have faith or trust in the police or the courts. Lower income people tend to get hassled much more by police and also tend to be sentenced for longer periods of time than people of higher socioeconomic status. I'm not OK with either of these facts so of course knowing this and having seen it in action, could you honestly expect me to auto-side with the police?
I also think it's great that Amnesty International is arriving.....we seriously need as a country to get out of denial about race issues, inequality, race-based differences in police behavior and I think it's great that due to the Internet, this sorry spectacle will give the rest of the world a chance to see some of the rot in America.....It's time we were held accountable for it in the sense we ceased denying it, and it's time something was done about it. Long past due. Maybe this is another place where the Internet and social media can do some good - they can flatten denial to some degree.
I just read online that forensic evidence shows Micheal Brown did surrender before being fatally shot. Anyone interested google this or just go to yahoo.com news to read the story. If this is true.....heaven help us as a nation if the cop is let off scott free. Here I may be in the minority but I'm afraid outside this board? I'm not the only one who thinks this way.....At a very minimum I see heavy handedness and a lack of respect for basic human rights (just look at how journalists have been treated that were not part of protesting or looting or rioting) by the authorities involved to date. OTOH, I don't believe the looters and rioters are making their side look so great, either. Engaging in illegal behavior will not bring back Michael Brown and it may be used in court to get the cop off scott free - duh? Hello - the looters and rioters need to wake up and realize that if social change/laws being revisited and potentially changed is to happen - they need to not be giving excuses that can be used to keep the status quo. It's like DUH? Both sides need to wake up and smell the percolating beans (I had an aunt in Georgia, RIP, who used to say this). Rob
In reading articles about why the blacks of Ferguson are reacting the way they are, is that there aren't any black policemen there. Why not? How many blacks have applied for jobs there and been turned down? Were they qualified and turned down? Why isn't anyone bringing up the issues of how difficult it might be for Caucasians to be in the middle of a culture that they're not that comfortable with? Or among a group of people (within that community) who are consistently causing trouble. All I'm saying is cops are only human and they have their tipping points too. They can reach saturation points where they just can't deal with one more thug.
And I think the media seeming to take the side of the protestors is demonstrating how totally unacceptable it is to say anything negative about a certain race of people.......even if they are acting in an unacceptable way.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 12:50pm
And we don't know that he didn't. Or that he did retreat and have his hands in the air when the cop shot him. So until forensic evidence about the gun wounds is done, we don't know anything and speculation on either side as to what happened, and why it happened as it did, is just that...speculation. The eye witnesses seem to be biased IMHO, although their statements are extremely important and, if what they say happened is backed by forensic evidence, then should shed a huge amount of light on the situation. Otherwise, unless the cop had a camera on him or his vehicle, or someone else did, then it's all up in the air.Yahoo.com news is now reporting forensic evidence shows that Micheal Brown did surrender before being gunned to death. I have not seen any forensic determination if he went after the gun, though. So at the moment we don't know. Actions since the shooting sure don't make either side look all to savory to me, though.....It's like siding with the lesser of two evils at the moment. Rob
Rob........the looters don't give a rat's ass about social change or laws.
And we STILL don't have the facts yet.....no matter what Yahoo might be saying.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 12:53pm
Rob........the looters don't give a rat's ass about social change or laws.No, no they don't. Are you surprised that I agree with you 100%? But what of the other 19,000 or so residents of Ferguson? What about people like me who are afraid to be out and about at night - after 9 PM - due to fear of the police? Not all of Ferguson is rioting and looting, and there seems to be the perception that all of Ferguson is. Nope, not true. Also there have been incident after incident by the authorities since the shooting of Brown that really make them look heavy handed and with a basic disrespect for those they are supposed to protect and serve. Rob
Well, well, well.....I just googled and found out that the police in Ferguson have once again crossed the line and arrested two more journalists but let them go after two minutes and threatened one photographer with shooting him if he did not stop photographing. Uh huh. And we pay taxes for these people's pensions? I didn't see this yet Rob so don't know if this was the case or not. But as one of those people :-) who get a "LE Public Safety" government pensions, my experience is that in LE and/or military situations (like the Nat. Guard) it is very common to move people out of danger zones (by force if needed) in order to protect them from harm or to better control a situation. This is also the case when it comes to reporters who often put LE people in danger (as well as other civilians) when they are in the way of police or Nat. Guard who then can't preform their duties in a less dangerous way - to protect themselves as well as the public they are paid to protect.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 12:58pm
In reading articles about why the blacks of Ferguson are reacting the way they are, is that there aren't any black policemen there. Why not? How many blacks have applied for jobs there and been turned down? Were they qualified and turned down? Why isn't anyone bringing up the issues of how difficult it might be for Caucasians to be in the middle of a culture that they're not that comfortable with? Or among a group of people (within that community) who are consistently causing trouble. All I'm saying is cops are only human and they have their tipping points too. They can reach saturation points where they just can't deal with one more thug.
And I think the media seeming to take the side of the protestors is demonstrating how totally unacceptable it is to say anything negative about a certain race of people.......even if they are acting in an unacceptable way.Both sides are acting in an unacceptable way as far as I am concerned. That said, not all of Ferguson is out there rioting and looting or even protesting. Out of a small city of 22,000, has anyone seen 22,000 people hit the streets? Sure seems that on the side of the authorities, which are much fewer in number, a much higher percentage of them have been engaging in shady behavior.....I'm just glad that human rights teams from abroad are coming. I'm also glad that they will tweet and Facebook and blog of their experiences to others.....I see it as flattening denial and balancing things out a bit. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:01pm
I didn't see this yet Rob so don't know if this was the case or not. But as one of those people :-) who get a "LE Public Safety" government pensions, my experience is that in LE and/or military situations (like the Nat. Guard) it is very common to move people out of danger zones (by force if needed) in order to protect them from harm or to better control a situation. This is also the case when it comes to reporters who often put LE people in danger (as well as other civilians) when they are in the way of police or Nat. Guard who then can't preform their duties in a less dangerous way - to protect themselves as well as the public they are paid to protect.If you have a moment and you are open to it, go to yahoo.com - the story is titled Exit Wounds Indicate Brown Surrendered and it's the top story - if you go to yahoo.com you can't miss it. Rob
PS If indeed the authorities are trying to protect reporters from what is going on around them - great. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is that they are not making this clear and are swooping down and arresting/assaulting/harassing them with no explanation that they need to move to be safe. Nope. That does not work for me, nor should it for anyone else, either. Those reporters are worth a two second explanation - something like We need you to move to ensure your safety - or molotovs are being thrown in the street, we need you to leave as it's not safe for you here - these reporters are worth that. That simple respect right there could have prevented litigation which is sure to arise now from harassed reporters knowing the dollar value of such police action. Rob
Both sides are acting in an unacceptable way as far as I am concerned. That said, not all of Ferguson is out there rioting and looting or even protesting. Out of a small city of 22,000, has anyone seen 22,000 people hit the streets? Sure seems that on the side of the authorities, which are much fewer in number, a much higher percentage of them have been engaging in shady behavior.....I'm just glad that human rights teams from abroad are coming. I'm also glad that they will tweet and Facebook and blog of their experiences to others.....I see it as flattening denial and balancing things out a bit. Rob
I think these people coming in will only confuse the issues. Do I think our entire country needs help with the direction we're going? Absolutely..........But I don't think this is what is needed right now in Ferguson, MO.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:09pm
They may also want to look at things like probable brain dysfunction caused by disease and/or drug use that may have caused him (Brown) to act irrationally. Given his size, he might have been a high school football player who suffered head trauma at some point. But mostly they will want to rule out things rather then look for things. Best to be thorough in a case like this.i'm all for testing for drug use.....that would explain a lot if he tests positive for something that would encourage violent behavior. And yeah, thorough works here, definitely. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:13pm
I think these people coming in will only confuse the issues. Do I think our entire country needs help with the direction we're going? Absolutely..........But I don't think this is what is needed right now in Ferguson, MO.I don't see it as confusing the issues. I see it as flattening the reach of heavy handedness and squashing what seems to be an old boys network. It also will serve to make the rest of the world more aware of America's rot and I'm guessing (?) those sent will be younger people, very adept with technology and able to get those third world images out pronto. Also happy and more than able to get any police heavy handedness to journalists on the ground in Ferguson out there online and on Twitter for the rest of the world to peruse and judge America by. Good. This country has earned that IMHO. Rob
No, no they don't. Are you surprised that I agree with you 100%? But what of the other 19,000 or so residents of Ferguson? What about people like me who are afraid to be out and about at night - after 9 PM - due to fear of the police? Not all of Ferguson is rioting and looting, and there seems to be the perception that all of Ferguson is. Nope, not true. Also there have been incident after incident by the authorities since the shooting of Brown that really make them look heavy handed and with a basic disrespect for those they are supposed to protect and serve. Rob
Before this happened you would have been foolish to be in north city/county after dark. You would hope that a policeman may be around to protect you.
I was was talking with my insurance guy today and he said most insurance company's don't pay for damage due to rioting or civil unrest. Anyone still doing business in these areas are nuts.
"Exit Wounds Indicate Brown Surrendered" - the story doesn't seem to be as conclusive as Rob claims. In particular, the crime reconstruction/ballistics expert making the statement is the family's lawyer:
"Lawyers for Brown's family said the results of of the preliminary autopsy support witness accounts that Brown was trying to surrender when he was shot.
"Why would he be shot in the very top of his head? A 6'4" man," attorney Daryl Parks said. "Makes no sense."
I have testified as a wound ballistics expert in court. From the information I've casually scene about the report, I could come up with a variety of scenarios. I'd want real data in front of me to make a real judgement, and I certainly wouldn't come to a conclusion and release it to the media in a press conference on such short order. Unless I knew nothing about wound ballistics and was a lawyer trying to make hay.
Rob, you are seeing only what you want to see, you are uninformed, and you have prejudged the entire business. Luckily, you'd never be allowed near a jury box for a case like this.
If you have a moment and you are open to it, go to yahoo.com - the story is titled Exit Wounds Indicate Brown Surrendered and it's the top story - if you go to yahoo.com you can't miss it. Rob
PS If indeed the authorities are trying to protect reporters from what is going on around them - great. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is that they are not making this clear and are swooping down and arresting/assaulting/harassing them with no explanation that they need to move to be safe. Nope. That does not work for me, nor should it for anyone else, either. Those reporters are worth a two second explanation - something like We need you to move to ensure your safety - or molotovs are being thrown in the street, we need you to leave as it's not safe for you here - these reporters are worth that. That simple respect right there could have prevented litigation which is sure to arise now from harassed reporters knowing the dollar value of such police action. RobI will look up that link - thanks. Haven't heard any new evidence yet but if it's in that should cleat up a lot. And yes, there are rogue cops that do terrible things out of anger or stress or whatever. No one's denying that happens. You saw that when the police chief killed someone next to him in a movie theatre. And those LEO's should be brought to justice of course.
As for the reporters and rioting (a separate issue to the shooting IMHO). it's not just about protecting the reporters, it's about getting them to move the hell out of the way asap so that police can protect other civilians from harm as well as their property and quell a violent situation. Probably everyone who's ever worked in LE or public safety has had to arrest, detain or physically remove other's who are hindering their efforts to help others. Sometimes in order to do so you have to become physical if they are choosing to disobey the law.
PS Yep I'm still travelling but home at the moment to take care of some stuff/obligations. Will be leaving again soon I hope...like maybe tomorrow ;-)!
Anyone still doing business in these areas are nuts.
And this is traditionally why folks living in areas like this have very little choice in merchants, goods, or pricing. (Google "food desert", for example.)
I'm amazed law enforcement, emergency medical services, and fire fighting services will even enter some areas these days, frankly.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:21pm
"Exit Wounds Indicate Brown Surrendered" - the story doesn't seem to be as conclusive as Rob claims. In particular, the crime reconstruction/ballistics expert making the statement is the family's lawyer:
"Lawyers for Brown's family said the results of of the preliminary autopsy support witness accounts that Brown was trying to surrender when he was shot.
"Why would he be shot in the very top of his head? A 6'4" man," attorney Daryl Parks said. "Makes no sense."
I have testified as a wound ballistics expert in court. From the information I've casually scene about the report, I could come up with a variety of scenarios. I'd want real data in front of me to make a real judgement, and I certainly wouldn't come to a conclusion and release it to the media in a press conference on such short order. Unless I knew nothing about wound ballistics and was a lawyer trying to make hay.
Rob, you are seeing only what you want to see, you are uninformed, and you have prejudged the entire business. Luckily, you'd never be allowed near a jury box for a case like this.I'm reading the news story on yahoo.com news, Bae. Seems pretty damning to me. But no, as I stated last night, I don't have all this knowledge of weaponry that you do - not all people do, Bae. And I'd be a great juror - I'm very into human rights and would have no problem in holding everything up to ask question after question after question and I would leave no stone unturned. A life has been lost here under questionable circumstances, I seem to be the only person on the board at the moment who "gets" that. It may be the evidence is released that makes the circumstances less questionable, I'll grant that. But this forensics release today? Pretty damning. Or at least that's how it's going to look to many people. Rob
Rob - "damning"? A simple opinion from one side's lawyer?
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:24pm
Rob - "damning"? A simple opinion from one side's lawyer?No, my word choice entirely, Bae. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:28pm
I will look up that link - thanks. Haven't heard any new evidence yet but if it's in that should cleat up a lot. And yes, there are rogue cops that do terrible things out of anger or stress or whatever. No one's denying that happens. You saw that when the police chief killed someone next to him in a movie theatre. And those LEO's should be brought to justice of course.
As for the reporters and rioting (a separate issue to the shooting IMHO). it's not just about protecting the reporters, it's about getting them to move the hell out of the way asap so that police can protect other civilians from harm as well as their property and quell a violent situation. Probably everyone who's ever worked in LE or public safety has had to arrest, detain or physically remove other's who are hindering their efforts to help others. Sometimes in order to do so you have to become physical if they are choosing to disobey the law.
PS Yep I'm still travelling but home at the moment to take care of some stuff/obligations. Will be leaving again soon I hope...like maybe tomorrow ;-)!Thanks, Spartana. As I've said before, I always love it when you respond to my posts. You have the rare ability to look at a situation like this and remain reasonable. Hope your further travels are safe and fun! Rob
Rob, on your response from.yesterday, no, I.didn't.see.where you had.called the deceased.a.thug.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:32pm
Rob, on your response from.yesterday, no, I.didn't.see.where you had.called the deceased.a.thug.Go back a few pages, Tradd, if you have the time and the interest. There are several posts in which I referred to the deceased as a thug - and he was. Strong arming that clerk and stealing those cigars? Something a thug would do. No doubt about that on my part. Rob
PS Came back to add, if you go to page 18, you can see in my response to your post that started with the words, Sweet Jesus, Rob - I responded to you on the same page and referred to the deceased as a thug in that post as well as in several others. Rob
And I'd be a great juror -
Rob - during voir dire, unless you perjure yourself, the questions asked by the attorneys will uncover your prejudices about the case and the parties, and you will likely be dismissed for cause.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 1:44pm
Rob - during voir dire, unless you perjure yourself, the questions asked by the attorneys will uncover your prejudices about the case and the parties, and you will likely be dismissed for cause.True. I'd have to lie to get on the jury and I wouldn't do that, Bae. But I'd still be a great juror IF it could happen. Which it couldn't, I agree with you. Rob
Seems pretty damning to me.
If you want to be on a jury you have to be able to distinguish facts from claims. The celebrity coroner said explicitly that the wounds did not answer those questions.
All it determined was he was shot from the front and been smoking dope. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/18/county-investigation-michael-brown-was-shot-from-the-front-had-marijuana-in-his-system/
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 2:02pm
If you want to be on a jury you have to be able to distinguish facts from claims. The celebrity coroner said explicitly that the wounds did not answer those questions.
All it determined was he was shot from the front and been smoking dope. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/18/county-investigation-michael-brown-was-shot-from-the-front-had-marijuana-in-his-system/"Smoking dope", though I don't partake, doesn't seem to have the stigma to it that it once did, Yossarian. Case in point - in Colorado and Washington, it's legal now, and there are a few other states desperate for tax revenue (examples, Oregon and California) that may be climbing on board with legal recreational marijuana. Things have changed on this front. On these changes, I'm not sure I agree with them but whether I like it or not, there have been changes.
I think it's interesting that we have experts now who are going to be adding to the drama by disagreeing with and/or one upping each other. Ugggggggghhhhhhh. I wish Micheal Brown had found something more constructive to do with this time that day and this had never happened. Rob
PS I'm actually bummed out that they only found marijuana in his system - I was so hoping they would run across something like meth or some strong narcotic based painkiller - it would have made me side more with the system, believe it or not, and it would have filled in some blanks for me. Guess my blanks will remain unfilled, lol. And how interesting that Iris Lilly? Last night she was dead on in saying that they'd only find marijuana in his system. Sure enough, she was dead on. Rob
iris lilies
8-18-14, 2:20pm
It's fine with me if Amnesty Int'l comes to Ferguson, why ever not? What are you all afraid of?
I would expect them to observe. There is a news story about their observation. They were not able to observe due to smoky air and bad visuals. So much for that.
As long as they participate in a peaceful protest, what's wrong with that? Just chill.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 2:23pm
It's fine with me if Amnesty Int'l comes to Ferguson, why ever not? What are you all afraid of?
I would expect them to observe. There is a news story about their observation. They were not able to observe due to smoky air and bad visuals. So much for that.
As long as they participate in a peaceful protest, what's wrong with that? Just chill.Thanks IL. I really respect your stance on this. And I have been hunting for information as to how the media covered last night's looting and the specific details seem to have gotten lost in the latest Ferguson drama. You know, National Guard, Amnesty International, forensics reports, yada yada yada. Rob
"Smoking dope", though I don't partake, doesn't seem to have the stigma to it that it once did, Yossarian.
Marijuana, though I would partake, has too many letters in it to type quickly on a regular basis. Dope and weed are much easier and I will continue to use them notwithstanding the historical trend toward legalization.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 3:25pm
New development. Amnesty International is now saying that International Human Rights Law has been violated in Ferguson - specifically as to the indiscriminate use of teargas with the potential for children and the elderly to get gassed. I am so so so glad they are there on the ground as they are going to be about human rights. It's about time. Rob
On military hardware in the homeland:
Here's a handy link, you can see what sort of free cheese your county has been handed by our Federal Friends:
http://www.freep.com/interactive/article/20140817/NEWS06/140726001/database-militarization-police-michigan?appSession=926116984399635&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=1&cpipage=1&CPISortType=&CPIorderBy=
Apparently my county, right on the border, where smuggling of goods, people, and drugs is commonplace, where terrorists have crossed, was issued 7 rifles 8 years ago, enough for one for each patrol car and a spare, and nothing else. How are the rest of y'all doing?
At least FEMA gave us some antique HAZMAT decontamination gear, geeze, I feel ripped off.
I talked with a friend of mine today. He said business was booming at the Bass Pro shop in St. Charles. Guns and ammo are flying off the shelf. At least there is some good from all this.
New development. Amnesty International is now saying that International Human Rights Law has been violated in Ferguson - specifically as to the indiscriminate use of teargas with the potential for children and the elderly to get gassed. I am so so so glad they are there on the ground as they are going to be about human rights. It's about time. Rob
Who are the International Human Rights Police, and what authority do they have in Missouri?
Well, I can see a pattern emerging: any do-gooder group that can connect their stated mission to this incident, is going to go for some publicity, by getting involved at some level. This lets their donor base know that they are out there, diligently working to make progress--with your help, course. Send us more cash, will you?, is the real message. Sorry to be so cynical, but that is the way it works; whether they actually accomplish anything worthwhile is beside the point.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 7:47pm
Interesting....another plot twist. Seems as if forensic experts today said that there was no evidence of a struggle, which really makes the police look like thugs, too. Only they can kill and perhaps get away with it.....And this is a free country? I'm very glad now that life has been a struggle for me economically for the most part as I have seen America as it really is for the lower classes and those with no real stake in the system.....Uggggggh. Right now I don't have much faith for the future of this country, but I guess I'll wait and see how this plays out. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 7:50pm
Who are the International Human Rights Police, and what authority do they have in Missouri?Amnesty International on the ground has the power of social media to show the world what America truly has become. Is this authority? No, anyone there could do it, but the fact the Amnesty International is doing it leads to an even poorer image for America, an image it has long since earned and is long overdue. This is the one development in this case I approve of - I am so glad they are there on the ground. Rob
Seems as if forensic experts today said that there was no evidence of a struggle
Except for the cop's face, which if you were reasonably independent (and you clearly are not) might give you some insight into who the aggressor was.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 7:59pm
Except for the cop's face, which if you were reasonably independent (and you clearly are not) might give you some insight into who the aggressor was.My point was that evidence seems to be emerging that the cop's side of the story is a crock. And no, I'm not independent any more than you are as I'm not there and I'm not trained in forensics so I don't have the skills to determine these issues myself. Rob
leads to an even poorer image for America, an image it has long since earned and is long overdue. This is the one development in this case I approve of - I am so glad they are there on the ground. Rob
No one gives a crap. The hug-a-thug approach was a complete bust. Back to protecting people and property.
The biggest reaction I have seen is a growing disdain for the people in that community. Many folks are happy to let them burn the place down and would be more likely to support fencing it in like Gaza then giving in to mob rule.
There will be an inquiry. Let's see what the facts are then decide what to do.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 8:07pm
No one gives a crap. The hug-a-thug approach was a complete bust. Back to protecting people and property.
The biggest reaction I have seen is a growing disdain for the people in that community. Many folks are happy to let them burn the place down and would be more likely to support fencing it in like Gaza then giving in to mob rule.
There will be an inquiry. Let's see what the facts are then decide what to do.My take is different. I see folks I know demanding an overhaul of the system and becoming yet more disillusioned. I see growing realization that the police are overmilitarized and often get away with murder, and I also see legislation supposedly being drafted by a Democrat from Georgia to demilitarize the police. I see people realizing this could be them next, and not very happy about that, with declining wages, jobs being shipped offshore, and not enough jobs to go around in the background as constant nightmare themes to deal with. I also see people realizing that what America looks like - it can be quite quite quite ugly when you take the rose colored glasses off.
Will any of this lead to change? Your guess is as good as mine. But at least there are people who are truly angry (of all races) who won't forgive or forget this. That's a good start for eventual change right there. Rob
My point was that evidence seems to be emerging that the cop's side of the story is a crock.
What evidence and what does it disprove?
demilitarize the police.
What does that mean? No SWAT teams? Not going to happen. No riot gear? Also not going to happen? No surplus equipment? Maybe, but not sure how excited people will be to stroke a check for new gear and let surplus equipment go to salvage.
iris lilies
8-18-14, 8:13pm
New development. Amnesty International is now saying that International Human Rights Law has been violated in Ferguson - specifically as to the indiscriminate use of teargas with the potential for children and the elderly to get gassed. I am so so so glad they are there on the ground as they are going to be about human rights. It's about time. Rob
bolding mine.
What, only the potential to get gassed? It already happened, kids were gassed. Most reasonable people think that's a shame. Did Amnesty Int'l miss that, too? I heard that they are already scampering out of here, or some of them, anyway.
But then, most reasonable people wouldn't have put their children in that line of fire at night, anyway. That's just not bright.
I can see taking kids 8, 9, 10+ to the protest in the day, if that's what floats your boat, but no way I'd have my children in that crowd after sundown.
iris lilies
8-18-14, 8:16pm
Who are the International Human Rights Police, and what authority do they have in Missouri?
Amnesty International has no standing here which is why it's fine that they come to the party (since hundreds of other outsiders are coming, too.) Who cares? Spend liberal tourist dollars in St. Louis, that will make up a tiny bit of the millions lost.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 8:57pm
More twists in the plot: A CNN reporter was threatened with arrest WHILE LIVE ON AIR. How incredibly stupid is that? A photographer with Getty Images was arrested, too - don't know more details on that one. And apparently, the protests are spreading to the city of St. Louis itself. This is not going to just wither and go away I'm afraid. Maybe we are on the cusp of some social change, who knows? Rob
... demilitarize the police. Rob
Today communities demand former SEAL and scout sniper police officers with the best gear and training to go in and save the day when there's a school shooter.........but also want a revolver totting chubby Norm Rockwell-painting Officer Barney Fife the rest of the time.
I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.
iris lilies
8-18-14, 9:08pm
More twists in the plot: A CNN reporter was threatened with arrest WHILE LIVE ON AIR. How incredibly stupid is that? A photographer with Getty Images was arrested, too - don't know more details on that one. And apparently, the protests are spreading to the city of St. Louis itself. This is not going to just wither and go away I'm afraid. Maybe we are on the cusp of some social change, who knows? Rob
If the reporters don't know to do what the police ask them to do by now, that's on them. And getting interaction with police on film is quite possibly their intent. It's called "baiting."
Protestors are being asked to keep moving in their protesting and to stay in a specific area. They don't get to run around and spread out all over as they present a danger to themselves and others.
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 9:49pm
Something that baffles me. I was just on BuzzFeed and there is an article there entitled, Expect Many, Many Lawsuits From Ferguson. Interesting as I am the only one on the board here who has mentioned this other than Packy. I wonder, really wonder, how many millions and millions of dollars are going to change hands here. And how successful litigation will only embolden others harassed by the police - maybe this is what it will take to affect change, financial pain and lots of dollars changing hands. According the BuzzFeed the police handling of journalists in Ferguson is just asking for lawsuits, too. Rob
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10433235_10201525864948762_3916613673128656616_n.j pg?oh=c47fd8f01ef27a1799e0f7a20e3131fc&oe=54800A0B&__gda__=1417106461_eba399c84746a7af3987e13db330854 8
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 10:20pm
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10433235_10201525864948762_3916613673128656616_n.j pg?oh=c47fd8f01ef27a1799e0f7a20e3131fc&oe=54800A0B&__gda__=1417106461_eba399c84746a7af3987e13db330854 8Here's an interesting point. As far as the lawsuits against teargasing go, and as far as the lawsuits by the media for how they have been treated go, it doesn't matter if the officer is guilty or innocent - successful lawsuits can still be rolled out. And will they ever be.....I look forward to the details of the numerous upcoming lawsuits as this is how real social change can take place. Rob
Here's an interesting point. As far as the lawsuits against teargasing go, and as far as the lawsuits by the media for how they have been treated go, it doesn't matter if the officer is guilty or innocent - successful lawsuits can still be rolled out. And will they ever be.....
Where did you go to law school, Rob? Have you ever been on a jury for a substantial civil case?
I love how you already know what happened, and what the controlling laws and standards are!
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 10:25pm
Where did you go to law school, Rob? Have you ever been on a jury for a substantial civil case?
I love how you already know what happened, and what the controlling laws and standards are!Bae, why not head on over to Buzzfeed yourself and find out what they have to say? They put it into words much better than I ever will be able to. Read the article there - if interested - and then come back and tell me what's wrong with it. The article makes perfect sense to me. Rob
PS Remember the OJ Simpson fiasco? And how at the end a good chunk of white America was utterly stunned that he walked a free man? I don't read the future and I don't know what will happen with the officer who fired - but as far as these side lawsuits go, me thinks some of white America will be stunned at the settlements - lol - especially those in power responsible. I so look forward to these upcoming side lawsuits......Rob
I so look forward to these upcoming side lawsuits......Rob
Yup, I can see you rubbing your hands together cackling with glee....
gimmethesimplelife
8-18-14, 10:38pm
Yup, I can see you rubbing your hands together cackling with glee....Ok, I'll admit it, there is a part of me that is.....maybe it's the Scorpio in me seeking justice? I don't know. But yes the thought of many successful lawsuits against the authorities in Ferguson based on their behavior this week (after the killing) makes me feel peace and calm. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
8-18-14, 10:51pm
Today communities demand former SEAL and scout sniper police officers with the best gear and training to go in and save the day when there's a school shooter.........but also want a revolver totting chubby Norm Rockwell-painting Officer Barney Fife the rest of the time.
I never wanted Seal teams and snipers. I want Barney Fife!!! Barney Fife! Barney Fife! chant it. But then I only have a vote not enough money to buy up the politicians so it hardly matters what I want, the DOD is giving them free tanks and all I have is a worthless vote. NOT IN MY NAME. The whole Seal teams and snipers, maybe someone wants that maybe noone does, I think that was mostly the result of the drug war which doesn't strike me as ever being entirely a bottom up movement. I've always been of the opinion that @#$# happens and trying to prevent it 100% is the height of folly. That doesn't mean nothing can ever be improved, I generally think it can, but people think they're going to prevent all terrorism or all crime or something - it can not be done.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.