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gimmethesimplelife
8-28-14, 9:21pm
The first pic already looks like much of North St. Louis now. The thugs have already taken over much of that. You should go there and visit.I don't need to. There are patches of Phoenix that resemble this, too. Thankfully they don't tend to erupt when such things happen. Rob

ApatheticNoMore
8-28-14, 9:37pm
I'm sure those chanting "Kill the Police" were just out having a good time and meant nothing by it.

It's doubtful anyone was shouting this as opposed to FTP*

* unprintable, but it's not file transfer protocol.

dmc
8-28-14, 9:38pm
It's doubtful anyone was shouting this as opposed to FTP*.

* unprintable, so let's just say it means file transfer protocol.

I read it on the internet so it must be true.

dmc
8-28-14, 9:40pm
http://news.yahoo.com/missouri-crowd-shooting-kill-police-230624269.html;_ylt=AwrBT9yw2f9TBeUAXt3BGOd_;_ylu= X3oDMTE0MnBpNTJhBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dG lkA1RBVVMwMTFfMQ--

gimmethesimplelife
8-28-14, 9:47pm
http://news.yahoo.com/missouri-crowd-shooting-kill-police-230624269.html;_ylt=AwrBT9yw2f9TBeUAXt3BGOd_;_ylu= X3oDMTE0MnBpNTJhBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dG lkA1RBVVMwMTFfMQ--I can see where this is not good PR for the black community in Ferguson but in my book it's understandable given what the black community - most especially those who complied with the law even though assault rifles were drawn on them for a couple of days by militarized police and compliant protestors were teargassed - endured in Ferguson. As I have said before, since the police have rights over us and have weapons within their reach as part of their job, I hold them to a higher standard. They blew it big time in Ferguson as far as I am concerned. Why shouldn't they face consequences as a result? Innocent protestors in compliance with the law faced consequences, now why should they not be seeking huge paydays and why should the Ferguson police be immune from such? Rob

PS The good that may come from this? Perhaps people of all races and all persuasions will be quicker to sue the police across America now. And definitely quicker to get police misconduct online and onto social media. Good developments in my book.

gimmethesimplelife
8-28-14, 9:51pm
It's doubtful anyone was shouting this as opposed to FTP*

* unprintable, but it's not file transfer protocol.FTP is a less harsh than KTP, I'll have to grant that. Still, neither being chanted justifies excessive force and poiice militarization. Rob

bae
8-28-14, 10:07pm
... since the police have rights over us ...

Actually, they don't, generally. They are held to a higher standard in use-of-force than you are, and are subject to many more legal restrictions to their activities and behaviours.

Where did you go to law school again?

gimmethesimplelife
8-28-14, 10:13pm
Actually, they don't, generally. They are held to a higher standard in use-of-force than you are, and are subject to many more legal restrictions to their activities and behaviours.

Where did you go to law school again?As far as I am concerned, anyone who can gun me down and possibly get away with it has far more rights than I do.....Look at Mr. Wilson, the officer involved, on PAID LEAVE whlle this is sorted out. Had I shot him down in self defense, I'd be sitting in a cell right now and not with pay I'm afraid. Legal me all you want to, to me this is not the slightest bit equal. Rob

Reyes
8-28-14, 11:02pm
Of course it is paid leave. The incident is under investigation. He has not been found at fault. Why wouldn't he get paid?

gimmethesimplelife
8-28-14, 11:37pm
Of course it is paid leave. The incident is under investigation. He has not been found at fault. Why wouldn't he get paid?I think this right here is part of the problem. There seems to be a presumption of innocence for the cop that I would not enjoy had I shot the cop in legitimate self defense. I would be sitting in a jail cell without pay while Mr. Wilson is collecting full pay while an investigation is held. Of course, he is in hiding which is probably wise, but he remains free whereas I would not. I have some pretty big issues with this. If the jail cell is good enough for me, it's good enough for the cop while the investigation is held. If there is no indictment, then let him go free. Police truly do have more rights than everyday people - the fact that Mr. Wilson is not currently in a cell while any of us would be only serves to prove that to me. Why should the cop be immune from the jail cell? Rob

bae
8-29-14, 12:11am
You are entitled to your own opinions, Rob, but not your own facts. That is simply not how things work.

jp1
8-29-14, 8:18am
Why should the cop be immune from the jail cell? Rob

Because he's expected to carry a gun and potentially use it as part of his job.

LDAHL
8-29-14, 8:35am
There seems to be a presumption of innocence for the cop that I would not enjoy had I shot the cop in legitimate self defense.

There is a presumption of innocence for everyone. Even cops. Even you.

CathyA
8-29-14, 9:35am
Well, nothing's going to change here........even with the "verdict", I suspect.

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 10:45am
There is a presumption of innocence for everyone. Even cops. Even you.I disagree. Darren Wilson, at the moment, although in hiding is a free man. As I said before, I'd be in a jail cell right now had I shot the cop in legitimate self defense. I see Mr. Wilson as getting a free pass in the sense that he is worth freedom at the moment and I would not be. I don't see the presumption of innocence working both ways here - I see huge gaps in how the system works based on Mr. Wilson being a cop. Doesn't work for me or most people I know, sorry. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 10:52am
Well, nothing's going to change here........even with the "verdict", I suspect.My guess is there is no making everyone happy here. If Mr. Wilson is not indicted, there is the risk of a racially charged powder keg going off. If he is indicted, what remains of Middle America and above is not going to be happy. This is explosive as it is delineated by race and by social class for the most part, though I will say that this is not true for every single last person out there. I know a few people with money that surprisingly enough are siding against the Ferguson police and I'm quite impressed with them for seeing what they see. It will be interesting to see what the verdict is and then what the consequences are. Something that has not been discussed here that I ran across online is economic fallout for St. Louis - apparently they have already lost several large conventions and I read some "expert" online stating that St. Louis is going to have a harder time now attracting businesses to relocate and/or start up in their area. There already is economic fallout. Interesting to see the level of fallout and the level of denial after the verdict is read regardless of how it plays out. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 10:57am
Because he's expected to carry a gun and potentially use it as part of his job.I think this too is a problem. Were Mr. Wilson in a jail cell right now awaiting the verdict and were this standard procedure, there would probably be fewer such incidents and it would serve to flatten the police and their heavy handedness. If there was a jail cell awaiting until their verdict is read they would think a little more before shooting I would guess and maybe work on deescalating the situation a bit. My belief is that the courts and the police are seriously flawed as is and some pretty extensive repairs need to be made to the current system. Though I have seen and thought this for years now - since I was 17 and what I have seen since then has only solidified this for me. Rob

LDAHL
8-29-14, 11:13am
I disagree. Darren Wilson, at the moment, although in hiding is a free man. As I said before, I'd be in a jail cell right now had I shot the cop in legitimate self defense. I see Mr. Wilson as getting a free pass in the sense that he is worth freedom at the moment and I would not be. I don't see the presumption of innocence working both ways here - I see huge gaps in how the system works based on Mr. Wilson being a cop. Doesn't work for me or most people I know, sorry. Rob

He's a free man because he hasn't as yet been charged with anything. The same would apply to you. I'm not hearing any evidence for your view of cops as unaccountable thugs other than your feelings on the matter.

Alan
8-29-14, 11:19am
Rob, It seems apparent to me that you have no understanding of any of the issues related to this case, just an emotional response grounded in who-knows-what. Your desire to try the case in social media, assume guilt without evidence and destroy peoples lives based upon nothing more than a desire to send a convoluted message are troubling, especially considering how many people share different aspects of your views.

I thing a primer in the universally accepted use of force guidelines and the legal system would lead to a more rational outlook.

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 11:38am
He's a free man because he hasn't as yet been charged with anything. The same would apply to you. I'm not hearing any evidence for your view of cops as unaccountable thugs other than your feelings on the matter.I disagree. If I shot a cop in legitimate self defense, I would be charged pretty quickly and sitting in a jail cell. Until this wide gap in human rights is addressed, there really can be no faith in the police or courts for many, especially lower income folks and minorities. It's not right that Darren Wilson is under investigation and free when I or most others would be sitting in a cell. The presumption of innocence that Mr. Wilson enjoys at the moment mocks everyday people and is quite excessive and extreme. I'm not the only one out there who sees it this way, either. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 11:47am
Rob, It seems apparent to me that you have no understanding of any of the issues related to this case, just an emotional response grounded in who-knows-what. Your desire to try the case in social media, assume guilt without evidence and destroy peoples lives based upon nothing more than a desire to send a convoluted message are troubling, especially considering how many people share different aspects of your views.

I thing a primer in the universally accepted use of force guidelines and the legal system would lead to a more rational outlook.The problem in your post above is that you obviously believe in and have faith in the police and the courts. Great, I don't have a problem with that, good for you. You get to see things as you wish in my book. The problem with your post is that not everyone has faith or trust in the police or the courts, and once you don't, there doesn't seem to be any going back to having this faith or trust. Honestly, for me the police and the courts really don't work and the best thing one can do is to avoid them as much as possible. Which is a concept that unfortunately Michael Brown did not understand as proven by his actions in the convenience store, I'll give you that. For me the system is broken and corrupt and needs a huge overhaul and I find the status quo repulsive and of great concern. To put it civilly and mildly. YMMV. Something else - just because something is so and is a law and is how things have been done for a long time does not make it right. This does not mean we should all go out and break laws - this means we might want to consider that for some people in this country, the courts and police work against them and not for them. A case in point would be young children in schools in Texas being arrested for flying a paper airplane in class, or spraying perfume on themselves in class, or for writing on their desks. This is indeed going on and it serves to show police and courts working against us and not for us. I'm of the opinion the only way to fight this is a 625K minimum settlement for each such arrest and the parents and children involved starting over in another country and voting with their feet with their settlements. Not going to happen, I realize this, but imagine the line of people that would want to get out of this nightmare we live under these days....I think you'd be surprised how many would leap at the chance to get out of the US for good once they have seen and dealt with what I am talking about. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 11:53am
Here's something that makes me smile - the cop who arrested and assaulted the two journalists at the McDonald's in Ferguson? Justin Cozma? (I'm not sure I spelled his last name right). He finds himself named on the $40 million dollar lawsuit (which to me is selling out too cheaply) against the Ferguson police. I am so relieved. Even if this lawsuit should not be successful, this officer's stress levels probably just ratcheted up a bit and I say good. He needs to suffer consequences for his actions if there is to be any positive social change and any faith and/or trust in the police or courts for certain segments of the population going forward. I'm glad and grateful to see this officer named in the lawsuit, I only wish they had asked for a higher amount. Rob

Alan
8-29-14, 11:54am
....imagine the line of people that would want to get out of this nightmare we live under these days....I think you'd be surprised how many would leap at the chance to get out of the US for good once they have seen and dealt with what I am talking about. RobI don't know Rob, those of you who continually (and proudly) vote for bigger and bigger government with more and more intrusions into citizens lives shouldn't be surprised. When you create a monster, you have no right to criticize its actions.

CathyA
8-29-14, 11:56am
That's fine Rob, but saying the same thing over and over here isn't going to change anyone's mind, and probably just increase your anxiety. Maybe it's time to let it go..........at least
on this forum. ??

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 11:58am
I don't know Rob, those of you who continually (and proudly) vote for bigger and bigger government with more and more intrusions into citizens lives shouldn't be surprised. When you create a monster, you have no right to criticize it's actions.With all due respect, I completely disagree. The police have been behaving this way for years before Obama ever came along. Even under Republicans the police and courts have been this way. Perhaps now there can be some social change and perhaps what's left of Middle America - some of them, anyway - may wake up to some bitter and unpleasant truths about America. I sure hope so and I cheer and applaud this if it does indeed happen. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 12:03pm
That's fine Rob, but saying the same thing over and over here isn't going to change anyone's mind, and probably just increase your anxiety. Maybe it's time to let it go..........and least on this forum. ??Perhaps you have a point. The reason I have been continuing is that I feel I can shed some light on this where no one else here can or will. But by now you'all know how I feel and what my outlook is here - without some pretty damning evidence - along the lines of the 99.9999999 percent in the OJ Simpson case that made me side with the prosecution - I am not going to change my mind. And even if there is damning evidence to this degree and I do change my mind - which I would be glad to come back and post if and when I do - I still have HUGE legal issues with police behavior AFTER the shooting death of Michael Brown. That is not going to go away regardless of indictment or no indictment - watch the lawsuits roll on in.....But yes, on this one you all know where I stand and have for some time. True. Rob

LDAHL
8-29-14, 12:21pm
The presumption of innocence that Mr. Wilson enjoys at the moment mocks everyday people and is quite excessive and extreme. I'm not the only one out there who sees it this way, either. Rob

The glory of our system is that it doesn't matter how you or I or anyone else "sees it". You are innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt is on the accusers and not the accused. If we ever change that, and start convicting people based on sentiment, we will deserve the serfdom that would inevitably result.

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 12:28pm
Some good news - the cop who had his gun trained on innocent law compliant protestors was threatening to kill them? Lt Ray Albers is his name. Resigned. Good riddance to such trash. I'm glad he's off the payroll but depressed as I'm not sure but I'm thinking his resigning allows him to keep his pension? What a travesty of justice if so. But at least no more penion building for him, I'll take some solace in that. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 12:34pm
Here is something else positive that I think all of us can agree with regardless of where we stand - the Ferguson police are getting body cameras now - donated from two companies apparently as a freebie, and are being trained in the use of them. Good. Maybe the cameras will lead to more rational and sane behavior on the part of police and keep them in check a bit. Also, great evidence if being accused of excessive force - having situations on video is good CYA. I'm pleased with this development and I hope it spreads. Something positive here anyway. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 12:45pm
Today is just an amazing day for Ferguson news.....all good news too in my book. It seems as if the UN has stepped up to the plate and is now saying the US police brutality against minorities "is an ongoing issue of concern". Google if interested, I found the story on The Raw Story website. I'm grateful to have the UN take this stance as it is pretty damning to me and I think the rest of world will file it away and won't hesitate to use it against us when convenient. Finally some consequences in this ongoing complete and total disrespect for the basic human rights of a certain segment of the US population.....I never thought I'd live to see this! I still think as horrible as this all is and how it shows some of what America is all about - I still think some good may very well come of this. About time. Rob

dmc
8-29-14, 1:16pm
My guess is there is no making everyone happy here. If Mr. Wilson is not indicted, there is the risk of a racially charged powder keg going off. If he is indicted, what remains of Middle America and above is not going to be happy. This is explosive as it is delineated by race and by social class for the most part, though I will say that this is not true for every single last person out there. I know a few people with money that surprisingly enough are siding against the Ferguson police and I'm quite impressed with them for seeing what they see. It will be interesting to see what the verdict is and then what the consequences are. Something that has not been discussed here that I ran across online is economic fallout for St. Louis - apparently they have already lost several large conventions and I read some "expert" online stating that St. Louis is going to have a harder time now attracting businesses to relocate and/or start up in their area. There already is economic fallout. Interesting to see the level of fallout and the level of denial after the verdict is read regardless of how it plays out. Rob

Ill bet most of the fallout will be because of the rioting and looting, not from the police action. Who wants to have a convention or start a business there. And guess who will be harmed the most from it.

Im sure glad glad I moved out of the area when I did. I lived about 30 miles from Ferguson and on the other side of the river. But I did pass by the area now and then. No more.

dmc
8-29-14, 1:19pm
Here's something that makes me smile - the cop who arrested and assaulted the two journalists at the McDonald's in Ferguson? Justin Cozma? (I'm not sure I spelled his last name right). He finds himself named on the $40 million dollar lawsuit (which to me is selling out too cheaply) against the Ferguson police. I am so relieved. Even if this lawsuit should not be successful, this officer's stress levels probably just ratcheted up a bit and I say good. He needs to suffer consequences for his actions if there is to be any positive social change and any faith and/or trust in the police or courts for certain segments of the population going forward. I'm glad and grateful to see this officer named in the lawsuit, I only wish they had asked for a higher amount. Rob

you do realize that there is no way that a court is going to award $40 million in this case. They might as well sued for a billion, it doesn't cost anymore.

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 1:25pm
you do realize that there is no way that a court is going to award $40 million in this case. They might as well sued for a billion, it doesn't cost anymore.With the spotlight on the ongoing police brutality toward minorities in this country, with both domestic and international attention ongoing, I think they may get more money than you think. I don't read the future but I sense the tides changing and some change being ushered in like it or not. About time and long overdue is what I say. Rob

Alan
8-29-14, 1:26pm
Rob, I think disappointment is in your future.

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 1:26pm
Ill bet most of the fallout will be because of the rioting and looting, not from the police action. Who wants to have a convention or start a business there. And guess who will be harmed the most from it.

Im sure glad glad I moved out of the area when I did. I lived about 30 miles from Ferguson and on the other side of the river. But I did pass by the area now and then. No more.You don't think people will avoid St Louis due to terror of the police, how they operate, and what they stand for? I beg to differ. I truly do. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 1:27pm
Rob, I think disappointment is in your future.And if there is, and if I'm right about your implications, IE no indictment, no lawsuit settlements - sit back and watch the powder keg go off. Rob

Alan
8-29-14, 1:28pm
You don't think people will avoid St Louis due to terror of the police, how they operate, and what they stand for? I beg to differ. I truly do. RobMy daughter and youngest grandson are on their way there today to visit the children's museum. The police are not their concern.

Alan
8-29-14, 1:29pm
And if there is, and if I'm right about your implications, IE no indictment, no lawsuit settlements - sit back and watch the powder keg go off. Rob
I think you'll be disappointed there as well.

ApatheticNoMore
8-29-14, 1:30pm
You don't think people will avoid St Louis due to terror of the police, how they operate, and what they stand for? I beg to differ. I truly do.

having heard it's a speed trap and they'll probably get a ticket for driving through it, I think most anyone would go a little out of their way to avoid that.

dmc
8-29-14, 1:38pm
I lived in the St. Louis area for over 25 years. I was never concerned with the Police. Now the thugs and gangs in north city and county were a different story. I stayed away as much as I could and tried never to be there at night. There are black thugs getting killed there pretty often, it's just usually amongst themselfs. How many have been killed by the police compared to by each other.

dmc
8-29-14, 1:44pm
Rob, I think disappointment is in your future.

I agree.

I'm still wondering where he is moving to. What country is open? It's a shame that he can't trade his citizen ship here to someone else who wants to be here.

dmc
8-29-14, 1:52pm
You don't think people will avoid St Louis due to terror of the police, how they operate, and what they stand for? I beg to differ. I truly do. Rob

Most law abiding people are not in fear of the police. And people visiting and spending money there would rather see a policeman around instead of the thugs or rioters. Do you really think people want to go to neighborhoods where the stores are boarded up or burned out? Do you think they are putting bars on their windows to keep the police out?

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 2:00pm
I agree.

I'm still wondering where he is moving to. What country is open? It's a shame that he can't trade his citizen ship here to someone else who wants to be here.Agreed on your last comment 100%. I've often thought this myself actually. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 2:02pm
Most law abiding people are not in fear of the police. And people visiting and spending money there would rather see a policeman around instead of the thugs or rioters. Do you really think people want to go to neighborhoods where the stores are boarded up or burned out? Do you think they are putting bars on their windows to keep the police out?I beg to differ with you. I am law abiding as are my neighbors and we all fear the police, some to more intense levels that I do. At least I'm Caucasian so I'm less likely to have issues, I have that much going for me, while most of my neighbors are not. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 2:05pm
I think you'll be disappointed there as well.You honestly believe if there is no indictment nothing will happen in communities like Ferguson? Oh vey. That's all I'm going to say. Oh vey. As to the lawsuits, who knows if it will settle out of court with a provision that the settlement amount not be disclosed and no talking to the media? We'll see. However this plays out - I'm very grateful the rest of the world is getting expose to America's rot and America's hypocrisy. Rob

Alan
8-29-14, 2:26pm
You honestly believe if there is no indictment nothing will happen in communities like Ferguson? Oh vey. That's all I'm going to say. Oh vey. As to the lawsuits, who knows if it will settle out of court with a provision that the settlement amount not be disclosed and no talking to the media? We'll see. However this plays out - I'm very grateful the rest of the world is getting expose to America's rot and America's hypocrisy. RobNo, I think there's a very good possibility that bad things will happen in communities like Ferguson. I think you'll be disappointed by justice prevailing when the best available evidence shows that a cocky, thuggish hooligan attacked a police officer sitting in his car, wrestled with him in order to get his weapon and then, after beating a short retreat, decided to return and finish him off, thereby resulting in the thug's death.

Outside the initial statements from Brown's friend and co-robber, that's where the evidence takes me.

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 7:03pm
No, I think there's a very good possibility that bad things will happen in communities like Ferguson. I think you'll be disappointed by justice prevailing when the best available evidence shows that a cocky, thuggish hooligan attacked a police officer sitting in his car, wrestled with him in order to get his weapon and then, after beating a short retreat, decided to return and finish him off, thereby resulting in the thug's death.

Outside the initial statements from Brown's friend and co-robber, that's where the evidence takes me.What you say above could come to pass. I understand this. Many of my issues involve police behavior AFTER the fatal shooting. I am not saying Michael Brown was any angel and I have agreed more than once that he was a thug. That said, I think the heavy handedness and excessive force used by the police AFTER the fatal shooting will end out costing Ferguson a lot of money. Who knows how many lawsuits are going to be filed now, and who knows how they will all end out. Certainly if the lawsuits are rejected or thrown out of court for any reason, it's not going to look good and this will go viral in mere minutes around the world. I'm amazed that I'm the only one who seems to get this here. Rob

Alan
8-29-14, 7:28pm
I'm amazed that I'm the only one who seems to get this here. Rob
And what does that tell you?

gimmethesimplelife
8-29-14, 7:42pm
And what does that tell you?It tells me that I have courage in my convictions, and the strength required to be an independent thinker and be true to what I perceive as real. These are qualities that I cherish about myself and will hopefully always have. Rob

Alan
8-29-14, 8:01pm
It tells me that I have courage in my convictions, and the strength required to be an independent thinker and be true to what I perceive as real. These are qualities that I cherish about myself and will hopefully always have. Rob
No doubt!

Just remember this bit of William Penn's wisdom whenever you're busy perceiving something: "Right is Right, even when everyone is against it, and Wrong is Wrong, even when everyone is for it."

or

One of my favorite George Orwellisms: "The people will believe whatever the media tells them they believe" , although in this case I'd substitute social media.

iris lilies
8-29-14, 8:23pm
My daughter and youngest grandson are on their way there today to visit the children's museum. The police are not their concern.

Excellent choice! City Museum is a great place for kids and adults alike. There is nothing like it any place in the world. It's a marriage of mad genius and salvaged historic architecture of St. Louis.

It was built by Bob Cassilly, my neighbor, who was a maniac. He died the way he would have wanted to die, on his bulldozer (it turned over on him.) Throughout my neighborhood are archietectural replicas, near follies, designed by Bob.

Alan
8-29-14, 8:29pm
Excellent choice! City Museum is a great place for kids and adults alike. There is nothing like it any place in the world. It's a marriage of mad genius and salvaged historic architecture of St. Louis.

It was built by Bob Cassilly, my neighbor, who was a maniac. He died the way he would have wanted to die, on his bulldozer (it turned over on him.) Throughout my neighborhood are archietectural replicas, near follies, designed by Bob.
I agree. My daughter and grandkids visited a couple of years ago and immediately started planning to return. This time she organized a group of her friends and their children who all went down as a caravan.

CathyA
8-29-14, 8:43pm
When our kids were younger we took a vacation to St. Louis. I really liked the Botanical Gardens. They had one of those sand areas that are "combed" into a beautiful pattern. We turned around and DS was playing in it. oops. But it was a beautiful place. Is it still nice?

iris lilies
8-29-14, 9:01pm
When our kids were younger we took a vacation to St. Louis. I really liked the Botanical Gardens. They had one of those sand areas that are "combed" into a beautiful pattern. We turned around and DS was playing in it. oops. But it was a beautiful place. Is it still nice?

That's in the Japanese Garden, which is very nice. Did you feed the coi when you were there? They kill me, those giant fish with their open mouths, big pigs of fish who expect everyone to feed them. Since you've been here they build a children's garden area, but I think it's ugly. The children's garden is the only thing I don't like at MO Botanical Gardens.

CathyA
8-29-14, 9:27pm
Haha.....Yes we fed the koi.

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 11:03am
Further interesting news from Ferguson and interesting too for those who doubt the power of social media - turns out an officer was fired due to posting racial and inflammatory remarks on social media re the black community in Ferguson. Let that be a lesson to police everywhere - social media can flatten you and ruin your economic security if you step out of line. I'm grateful to see this termination though in my book there need to be many more and also of course large settlements as I've said before. But at least we've got one termination and one resignation at this point. Better than nothing. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 12:34pm
Excellent choice! City Museum is a great place for kids and adults alike. There is nothing like it any place in the world. It's a marriage of mad genius and salvaged historic architecture of St. Louis.

It was built by Bob Cassilly, my neighbor, who was a maniac. He died the way he would have wanted to die, on his bulldozer (it turned over on him.) Throughout my neighborhood are archietectural replicas, near follies, designed by Bob.I have a friend from my seasonal days that went to this museum and he said it was incredible. Rob

ApatheticNoMore
8-30-14, 1:28pm
Further interesting news from Ferguson and interesting too for those who doubt the power of social media - turns out an officer was fired due to posting racial and inflammatory remarks on social media re the black community in Ferguson. Let that be a lesson to police everywhere - social media can flatten you and ruin your economic security if you step out of line.

what a shocking discovery for him, meanwhile everyone else IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD already knew that a decade ago: to be careful you put on social media because of employers (if your posting under your real name or pic anyway - aliases meh I don't think they are hiring the NSA ... If so oh well I guess :) Did I ever mention how much I hate work? ....).

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 1:35pm
what a shocking discovery for him, meanwhile everyone else IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD already knew that a decade ago: to be careful you put on social media because of employers (if your posting under your real name or pic anyway - aliases meh I don't think they are hiring the NSA ... If so oh well I guess :) Did I ever mention how much I hate work? ....).I agree ANM - this shows a marked lack of common sense on the part of the officer involved. It shows a police culture of belief of being immune from consequences of actions, too. I seem to see this as a recurring theme in Ferguson and I'm glad these people are slowly staring to get the sack. It can't happen soon enough and I truly hope this offer lost his pension as a result of this termination - imagine the terror this message would sent to officers nationwide? That could only be a positive development. Rob

Yossarian
8-30-14, 2:05pm
we all fear the police

Maybe we can make things less scary for you:



http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/c9/7e/c8/c97ec89c22606d43cde1bfbcc598425c.jpg

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 2:19pm
Well, here's the latest and maybe this can help you'all understand why I see America the way I do - go to dailykos.com if interested. There is a story there to the effect that a memorial was set up for Michael Brown and the police let their dogs urinate on it and then drove over it and destroyed the candles and such there. In my book every last resident in Ferguson deserves a huge settlement for that blatantly inhumane disrespect. I'm hoping this action generates multi-million dollar lawsuits in and of itself and more international and domestic publicity. I'm doing my part by sharing this story all over the net out of sheer and utter disgust, and to promote basic human dignity and basic human rights. Qualities that definitely seem lacking in the Ferguson (and neighboring, too) police as more details are revealed, at least as far their after the shooting death behavior. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 2:21pm
Maybe we can make things less scary for you:



http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/c9/7e/c8/c97ec89c22606d43cde1bfbcc598425c.jpgI've witnessed police brutality towards Hispanics here in Phoenix - there will be no going back for me - I will always fear and distrust American police and American courts. I've seen both work against too many people to ever waste faith and/or trust in either of these two concepts. Rob

Yossarian
8-30-14, 3:12pm
I will always fear and distrust American police and American courts.

I'm sure that is easy to fit into your victimization narrative but as you can see from numerous inner city examples it's probably a self-defeating posture.



http://i1.cpcache.com/product_zoom/171304160/stop_snitching_snitchin_oval_decal.jpg?height=250&width=250&padToSquare=true

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 3:19pm
I'm sure that is easy to fit into your victimization narrative but as you can see from numerous inner city examples it's probably a self-defeating posture.



http://i1.cpcache.com/product_zoom/171304160/stop_snitching_snitchin_oval_decal.jpg?height=250&width=250&padToSquare=trueDid you not read my post about police disrespect at the Michael Brown memorial? Having their dogs urinating over it and then driving over it? And this is acceptable police behavior to you? Rob

Yossarian
8-30-14, 3:35pm
Did you not read my post about police disrespect at the Michael Brown memorial? Having their dogs urinating over it and then driving over it? And this is acceptable police behavior to you? Rob

Sure, and it is meaningless in the big picture. If we find people exercising bad judgment we need to address it individually not trash everyone or the whole system. I'm not a cheerleader, just a realist. We ask regular people to do a very hard job. You are bound to have circumstances where mistakes are made. I personally have experienced police behavior that I objected to. But I don't know of any better system, so the answer has to be to address issues as you find them and not to get all chicken little about it.

There are places in the inner cities that have your attitude. I don't see them as more attractive places to live than other communites that support their police force. As flawed as its application may be at times, the rule of law is perhaps the biggest thing to me that separates palces I want to live from those I don't.

bae
8-30-14, 3:46pm
As flawed as its application may be at times, the rule of law is perhaps the biggest thing to me that separates palces I want to live from those I don't.

My town, rule-of-law:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9U1YwG6oeN8/TrsVXDTASfI/AAAAAAAABnE/yIrMElVsMiA/s1600/Darlene2.bmp


Rob's Dream Town, no rule-of-law:

http://www.formyhour.com/img/photo/street_fighting_in_libya/street_fighting_in_libya.jpg

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 4:11pm
Sure, and it is meaningless in the big picture. If we find people exercising bad judgment we need to address it individually not trash everyone or the whole system. I'm not a cheerleader, just a realist. We ask regular people to do a very hard job. You are bound to have circumstances where mistakes are made. I personally have experienced police behavior that I objected to. But I don't know of any better system, so the answer has to be to address issues as you find them and not to get all chicken little about it.

There are places in the inner cities that have your attitude. I don't see them as more attractive places to live than other communites that support their police force. As flawed as its application may be at times, the rule of law is perhaps the biggest thing to me that separates palces I want to live from those I don't.I can meet you halfway and agree that we are asking regular people to do a hard job and that being human, mistakes are going to be made. And I'm not at all against the rule of law. WHAT I AM AGAINST IS THIS: A pattern of police behavior and over the top misconduct that we witnessed in Ferguson. After reading about the police letting dogs urinate on the Michael Brown memorial and then driving over it, honestly, I'm thinking there should be a minimum one million dollar settlement for all residents of Ferguson and that any officer involved, immediate termination and pension loss with both domestic and international news media and social media coverage. I'm of the opinion that instant pension loss in such cases would quickly end such incidents and they would not cost taxpayers anything - if anything, with terror of financial loss hanging over their heads 24/7, the police would be less likely to misbehave and there would be fewer huge settlements of the sort that are coming to Ferguson not too far off. The rule of law is not a bad thing - I won't disagree with that - but the rule of law has to work TWO WAYS with the police not being above the law, otherwise the rule of law is essentially meaningless. In Ferguson the law of law, due to police misconduct, quickly became meaningless, we all witnessed this with our own eyes. I'm so grateful for social media and the numerous lawsuits soon coming. At least people are standing up and fighting back in some legal ways. And I'd bet there will be more of this going forward. There's too much anger and inequality out there for it to rest at this point. Rob

bae
8-30-14, 4:15pm
Rob doesn't understand that "due process" is an important part of rule of law.

Rob doesn't even understand what the law is though.

I'd deconstruct the "driving-over-the-memorial-in-the-middle-of-the-street" incident, but Rob doesn't like critical thinking. (Here, I must say, we put up our memorials for the dead along the *side* of the public right-of-way, not in the middle of the street. Places where anarchy reigns may have different local customs.)

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 4:22pm
Rob doesn't understand that "due process" is an important part of rule of law.

Rob doesn't even understand what the law is though.

I'd deconstruct the "driving-over-the-memorial-in-the-middle-of-the-street" incident, but Rob doesn't like critical thinking. (Here, I must say, we put up our memorials for the dead along the *side* of the public right-of-way, not in the middle of the street. Places where anarchy reigns may have different local customs.)Then the police need to explain this doesn't belong in the middle of the street, minus the dogs urinating on it and minus driving over it to destroy it. Big time mistakes and not going to win the Ferguson police any friends or influence people - at least not in a positive way. I'll await the inevitable lawsuits and follow them with pleasure. Behaving like storm troopers like that? Instant lawsuits. There is something to be grateful for. Rob

About the law? The law needs to work BOTH ways - something Ferguson has made abundantly clear is that it doesn't always. At least we have social media and lawsuit settlements to force necessary corrections. I still do believe some good may very well come of this. Rob

bae
8-30-14, 4:30pm
Then the police need to explain this doesn't belong in the middle of the street...

I don't think that will gain much traction in a neighborhood where the police need to explain "you probably shouldn't gather in crowds and loot and burn stores".

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 4:34pm
I don't think that will gain much traction in a neighborhood where the police need to explain "you probably shouldn't gather in crowds and loot and burn stores".They didn't even have the basic respect to at least try it before behaving like storm troopers. Only fix I can see is instant pension loss and huge settlements for all town residents. Those people in Ferguson? They were worth the respect for a short explanation before behaving like storm troopers. Now the police need to suffer consequences for their behavior, if only so that other police elsewhere think twice about pulling the same. As far as the current police force in Ferguson goes.....methinks there will be upcoming changes. Rob

Something else - not all protestors were looting and burning, Bae. There were those who were law compliant who were still assaulted, threatened, and teargassed. Instant lawsuits.....the Ferguson police certainly have them coming. This was way way way over the top and needs to be addressed. Can you think of a better way than 24/7 terror of pension loss? Rob

ApatheticNoMore
8-30-14, 5:12pm
then the police need to explain this doesn't belong in the middle of the street, minus the dogs urinating on it and minus driving over it to destroy it.

was the street closed to thru traffic anyway? I don't know, I figure there's a decent chance of that (roped off perhaps?). If so a memorial in the middle of a street closed for traffic isn't really interfering with traffic. But it might still be illegal? Sure, so is lots of stuff. But the strong compelling reason for not placing a memorial in the street (to allow for traffic duh), wouldn't be there. And even if there was a reason (say some traffic let through with a blockage) it would not be immediately obvious, so yea an explanation - it would accomplish at least as much as pissing dogs, considering pissing dogs doesn't actually accomplish anything but escalation.

Packy
8-30-14, 6:13pm
I remember that reactionary bumper sticker from back in the early 70's, that said: "If you don't like the Police, next time you need help--call a Hippie!". I am disclaiming any advocacy of that; I just thought I'd post it here, for everyone to chew on, like a big greasy piece of Pizza or a Rotisserie Chicken.

Yossarian
8-30-14, 6:32pm
but the rule of law has to work TWO WAYS with the police not being above the law

OK, no halfway here, I agree 100%. But there is a difference between bad policy and criminal acts. Mobs are scary and unpredictable. As someone on another forum pointed out that when containing a mob the cops generally have 2 options: coercion or force. As much as you would like to criticize coercive (e.g. scary) tactics, I think we can all agree it is better than force- clubbing or shooting people. If any cops acted against policy or good judgment they should be disciplined. Peaceful protest should be allowed without undue interference. If the standard playbook is outdated and there are lessons to be learned about other psychological crowd control tactics let's figure those out for next time. But once the mayhem breaks loose I think your riot buddies lose the moral high ground and I'm not throwing the cops under the bus for responding to criminal behavior without more details.



Something else - not all protestors were looting and burning, Bae. There were those who were law compliant who were still assaulted, threatened, and teargassed.

My guess is things are more complicated than your "off with their heads, er, pensions" pronouncements but time will tell. You know, that whole due process thing just isn't as quick as tweeting.

iris lilies
8-30-14, 6:33pm
I remember that reactionary bumper sticker from back in the early 70's, that said: "If you don't like the Police, next time you need help--call a Hippie!". I am disclaiming any advocacy of that; I just thought I'd post it here, for everyone to chew on, like a big greasy piece of Pizza or a Rotisserie Chicken.

Only if the Pizza has peperoni, only then will I chew it.

haha, not really. I much prefer Italian sausage. That and mushrooms and lotsa onions.

iris lilies
8-30-14, 6:49pm
Then the police need to explain this doesn't belong in the middle of the street...

Oh sure, the "police need to explain."

Like their word, their authority, would be respected by you. What a hypocritical statement that is.

I think it's fine, although completely silly, that people stack up teddy bears and Mad Dog liquor bottles in a totem for Mike Brown, but for heaven's sake the stackers may not claim ignorance of simple laws of physics when wheeled vehicles move about in the area. Do it, suffer the consequences, stop bitching about it.

The kos and their ken are reaching for reasons to be hurt and outraged, and beating that dead horse is the project at hand.

There are serious issues represented by the Ferguson incident, but peeing dogs is not one of them. That obsession weakens their case.

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 7:28pm
Oh sure, the "police need to explain."

Like their word, their authority, would be respected by you. What a hypocritical statement that is.

I think it's fine, although completely silly, that people stack up teddy bears and Mad Dog liquor bottles in a totem for Mike Brown, but for heaven's sake the stackers may not claim ignorance of simple laws of physics when wheeled vehicles move about in the area. Do it, suffer the consequences, stop bitching about it.

The kos and their ken are reaching for reasons to be hurt and outraged, and beating that dead horse is the project at hand.

There are serious issues represented by the Ferguson incident, but peeing dogs is not one of them. That obsession weakens their case.Surprise, surprise, IL. I would actually listen to the police and do as they say if only to get out of their line of vision and fire as quickly as possible. I have witnessed human rights violations committed by the Phoenix police right in front of my eyes in my neighborhood, I would want as little to do with them as possible. That said, if they went over the top with me, instant calls to the media, instant social media posts, instant lawsuit, and instant attempts to try to gain national media coverage. I love and respect myself and would leave no stone unturned in standing up for myself. If I didn't, I'd be just as guilty as the police as it's tacit approval for them to treat the next person this way.

That said, if a police encounter with me did not go over the top, I'd politely comply and try to get off their radar ASAP. Very little good can come of police contact for most lower income people - America has taught me that and I chose to not to deny the lesson. Unpleasant though it is. And moving along, an explanation, especially with audio/video, would be great CYA here. And I agree with your point that there are more serious issues involved in Ferguson than the dogs urinating on the memorial. This intense disrespect though does serve to show a pattern of complete and total disgust and discrimination and disdain for the community of Ferguson. Such events can be used by the wise to alter perceptions and with so many already seeing heavy handedness and excessive force - this was not a bright act on the part of the Ferguson police. Not at all. Thank goodness for social media so the rest of the world can find out if interested.....Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 7:29pm
Only if the Pizza has peperoni, only then will I chew it.

haha, not really. I much prefer Italian sausage. That and mushrooms and lotsa onions.I vote for pineapple, mushroom, and bell pepper. With extra cheese. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 7:39pm
OK, no halfway here, I agree 100%. But there is a difference between bad policy and criminal acts. Mobs are scary and unpredictable. As someone on another forum pointed out that when containing a mob the cops generally have 2 options: coercion or force. As much as you would like to criticize coercive (e.g. scary) tactics, I think we can all agree it is better than force- clubbing or shooting people. If any cops acted against policy or good judgment they should be disciplined. Peaceful protest should be allowed without undue interference. If the standard playbook is outdated and there are lessons to be learned about other psychological crowd control tactics let's figure those out for next time. But once the mayhem breaks loose I think your riot buddies lose the moral high ground and I'm not throwing the cops under the bus for responding to criminal behavior without more details.



My guess is things are more complicated than your "off with their heads, er, pensions" pronouncements but time will tell. You know, that whole due process thing just isn't as quick as tweeting.Much of your post here I both agree with and appreciate. I am of the opinion that the standard playbook needs an update but who knows? Maybe that will be the good that comes out of this? I do agree that once rioting breaks out the moral high ground gets murkier and not crystal clear and I don't blame you for wanting more details. I don't think that's wrong at all. I can only post my perceptions based on what I have seen on the media, read, and based on how I have seen police act in my lifetime and based on the fear of the police I have learned as an American citizen. Obviously, not everyone is going to interpret what they see and read and hear on the media the same, and not everyone has had the life experiences I have had that cause me to fear the police. I get that. And I do agree that mobs are scary and unpredictable - but I'm seeing police behavior, such as with the destruction/allowing their dogs to urinate on the Michael Brown memorial thrown together - that is over the top, scary, very telling of major police attitude and belief issues, and not mob related. I'm trying to place myself in the shoes of a cop dealing with a mob and there's no way I can know exactly what that is like though I'm going to guess scary and potentially clouding judgment as no one can know just how far the mob will go. Still, due to the militarization and having guns trained on the peaceful protestors alone - I'm going to have a hard time siding with the police. Though I understand YMMV and I do see some of your points and even agree with some of them. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 7:42pm
was the street closed to thru traffic anyway? I don't know, I figure there's a decent chance of that (roped off perhaps?). If so a memorial in the middle of a street closed for traffic isn't really interfering with traffic. But it might still be illegal? Sure, so is lots of stuff. But the strong compelling reason for not placing a memorial in the street (to allow for traffic duh), wouldn't be there. And even if there was a reason (say some traffic let through with a blockage) it would not be immediately obvious, so yea an explanation - it would accomplish at least as much as pissing dogs, considering pissing dogs doesn't actually accomplish anything but escalation.APN - good question. I'll go back and read the story and see if I can find any details as to whether the area was closed off to traffic or not. Rob

Packy
8-30-14, 9:00pm
Earlier this year, I thought of a new concept. Thing is, I don't think I've ever had an original thought. But, I'll share it with you kids, anyway---stop me if you've already heard it, though. I was thinking about the formation of "The Please Department". The Please Department would have officers, new 150+mph cruisers all decked out with graphics, an escalating budget & a pension fund to worry about. But the officers( they aren't "cops"--that's too disrespectful) would drive around, keeping an eye on things, responding to calls, eating donuts, etc., just like REAL cops. But, when they caught a perp in the act or cornered a suspect, they would respectfully try to convince the perpetrator to "Please---let's not be doing that kind of thing, Alright?" See? Just go around, nicely asking people to PLEASE, obey the law. They ought to try it somewhere, and see how much of an effect being considerate while appealing to a would-be criminals' sense of decency, has on the crime stats.

bae
8-30-14, 9:18pm
I am of the opinion that the standard playbook needs an update but who knows?

Do you even know what the standard playbook is? Or what the law says? Or where to find out?

Bunny trail: The Washington State Patrol holds a large crowd-control training event almost every year. Civilians are welcomed, even recruited, to attend to portray the crowd, and assigned different roles - peaceful protester, bystander, agitator, violent protester, media, and so on. It's a lot of fun to participate in, you can get water-cannoned, tear-gassed, sonic-blasted, batoned, swarmed, and all sorts of other cool things. Very educational. I've been multiple times, and enjoyed it.

Rob - you might want to see if your state or department offers a similar thing, so you can directly observe and participate, and offer feedback, and get educated.

Or maybe just start with doing a ride-along with the patrol officers in your neighborhood, allowing you to reach out, and observe and keep them honest.

Packy
8-30-14, 9:19pm
I'd like to recommend a movie, here. I don't watch many movies--ain't got time. Anyway, this is one I saw about 20+ years ago--and rewatched several times since, because the video rental store dispersed the vhs vids for cheap. So I have a copy--somewhere. Anyway, it is the 1989 Spike Lee movie, "Do The Right Thing". Most of you kids would dislike it, because the story is about like Mo' Ferguson. But, it's interesting. Has two actors that were relative unknowns in 1989, who went on to appear in many films.

goldensmom
8-30-14, 9:37pm
Earlier this year, I thought of a new concept. Thing is, I don't think I've ever had an original thought.
Probably not for 'there is nothing new under the sun' and not even that is new, I got it from Ecclesiastes. ;)

gimmethesimplelife
8-30-14, 10:08pm
Do you even know what the standard playbook is? Or what the law says? Or where to find out?

Bunny trail: The Washington State Patrol holds a large crowd-control training event almost every year. Civilians are welcomed, even recruited, to attend to portray the crowd, and assigned different roles - peaceful protester, bystander, agitator, violent protester, media, and so on. It's a lot of fun to participate in, you can get water-cannoned, tear-gassed, sonic-blasted, batoned, swarmed, and all sorts of other cool things. Very educational. I've been multiple times, and enjoyed it.

Rob - you might want to see if your state or department offers a similar thing, so you can directly observe and participate, and offer feedback, and get educated.

Or maybe just start with doing a ride-along with the patrol officers in your neighborhood, allowing you to reach out, and observe and keep them honest.Bae, with all due respect, when I say I am afraid of the police....I am afraid of the police. I don't care to interact with them period. Not even in a positive way. I just have too much fear to do so and as far as I am concerned, it's well earned fear. I realize you mean to be helpful but in my case, best to leave them be and hopefully never interact with. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 11:21am
I just read online that there was a big rally in Ferguson today, today being three weeks since the fatal shooting. The protest organizers seem to be committed to not dropping this and keeping the resulting issues in the "forefront of America" and I say kudos to them for doing so. I was so worried that the protests were going to dwindle but it seems as if people are committed and are not just going to let this politely go away. Good! Rob

I also watched an interview with the Brown family's attorney who says that Darren Wilson will be indicted and convicted, though honestly, what would you expect him to say? Just like Darren Wilson's attorney will come forward and say their client is innocent and will not be convicted.

Packy
8-31-14, 12:38pm
Here is a read that might interest some(okay--a few)of the participants in this thread. A book I read about 10 years ago--got it on the bargain table, somewhere. It is Joe Dominicks' "To Protect And To Serve--The LAPD's Century of War In THe City Of Dreams." You may detect a bias there; But, it was written in the aftermath of the Rodney King incident, and the riots that ensued. A perspective of the culture of the LAPD, and how it evolved. It discusses Chief Bill Parker and his later successor, Daryl Gates. The topic is one that a person could definitely spend much time studying and reading about, if this book piques their interest. Parker is notable for being the guy who, in an interview, made the reference to "those people". Gates was the guy who implemented SWAT and DARE. Both Parker and Gates were a good example of the authoritarian Bureaucrat who stays in their job a bit too long, if you ask me. I figure that it really isn't good for them OR the public.

Yossarian
8-31-14, 12:49pm
Do you really think people want to go to neighborhoods where the stores are boarded up or burned out?

While Rob is gloating over the prospects of big judgments, I wonder if anyone has stopped to think how that really affects people. If the city does have to pay, where do they get the money? Police and fire are usually the last to get cut. I would think social services take the first hit. And if they have to raise taxes to pay such that the now inflated tax costs exceed the benefits delivered to current residents, do people with the means to do so move thus lowering the area further down the economic spectrum? Even without a verdict the costs of police overtime and litigation are going to be steep. Death spiral? If they don't have a fabulous insurance policy it may be a good investment to start selling window sized sheets of plywood nearby.

Yossarian
8-31-14, 1:22pm
Ask yourself, when looking at the social media frenzy and "perception" - cui bono....

!Splat!


At Risk in Senate, Democrats Seek to Rally Blacks

By JONATHAN MARTIN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/jonathan_martin/index.html)
AUG. 30, 2014

WASHINGTON — With their Senate majority imperiled, Democrats are trying to mobilize African-Americans outraged by the shooting in Ferguson, Mo., to help them retain control of at least one chamber of Congress for President Obama’s final two years in office.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/us/politics/at-risk-in-senate-democrats-seek-to-rally-blacks.html

Packy
8-31-14, 1:30pm
I'll bet the glass shops in a 100-mile radius are stockpiling Glass & plywood & keeping every available hand on deck, for the time being. There may be crews planning a trip up from the Gulf Coast, to help out, if need be. Just another way money changes hand in a deal like this.

Tradd
8-31-14, 1:41pm
If Wilson gets no-billed by the grand jury or acquitted if a trial happened, it would likely get really ugly, really fast.

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 1:47pm
If Wilson gets no-billed by the grand jury or acquitted if a trial happened, it would likely get really ugly, really fast.Yes. I agree. Scary ugly very fast. And I'm of the opinion it would spread - think Chicago, LA, Atlanta, the list goes on. Rob

Tradd
8-31-14, 1:49pm
Yes. I agree. Scary ugly very fast. And I'm of the opinion it would spread - think Chicago, LA, Atlanta, the list goes on. Rob

Having the media whores of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton inflaming situations like this does not help.

iris lilies
8-31-14, 1:53pm
If Wilson gets no-billed by the grand jury or acquitted if a trial happened, it would likely get really ugly, really fast.

Did you say that a .22 is an easy gun for beginners? Maybe I need to buy one, living a block and a half from public housing projects as I do.

Tradd
8-31-14, 1:57pm
Did you say that a .22 is an easy gun for beginners? Maybe I need to buy one, living a black and a half from public housing projects as I do.

Yes, .22 are easy for beginners. The trick, though, is finding ammo as .22 is rather.scarce these days.

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 2:17pm
Having the media whores of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton inflaming situations like this does not help.Agreed. But this is a two way street and somehow the police are going to have to find the emotional strength to deal with being held accountable for their actions. They will also have to find the inner strength to deal with not being above the law and to deal with the consequences of their misbehavior. It's long overdue and what I'm seeing in my barrio (an affectation on my part to use this word but most of the neighborhood is of Hispanic background) is that there is a lot of fear and hatred and distrust and most of all, resentment of the police. I really believe with the advent of social media and the intense economic inequality in the US these days, this situation is not going to just fade away this time. And people won't be flattened this time as in the past - they will use technology to flatten the power of the authorities and roll ahead with multi million dollar lawsuits and media publicity to strike back. It's long overdue and I applaud this development.

But back to your post. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are not needed to stir the pot. The Ferguson police department has sealed their fate by stirring the pot for years - amazing that it's taken the pot this long to boil over. Rob

PS To those of you who find my posts about this whole issue a bit out there, let me assure you that I live in a neighborhood ( or barrio, to respect my neighbors) of over 10,000 - the people I know here from community activism all feel the same way and have told me that their friends and neighbors are on board this with these sentiments too. My point is I'm not alone out there and here in Phoenix we have Hispanics siding against the Ferguson police. Rob

JaneV2.0
8-31-14, 2:25pm
There was something on the local news about how Seattle police are up in arms (pun noted) about new rules designed to curb excessive force. I guess the job just wouldn't be the same without dangerous police chases, beating handcuffed women, shooting Native American artists holding four-inch knives, roughing up suspects while shouting racial slurs, etc. etc. Police brutality is endemic, due either to psychopathic recruits flying under the radar of psychological testing, or being given a pass by their superiors. We had a police chief (!) up here in Tacoma that was promoted despite repeated warnings about his instability. In the end, he brutalized his wife--who had to take out a restraining order--until he finally gunned her down and killed himself in front of their children. He would have been a menace to society regardless, but there was no excuse for putting him in a position of power over the general citizenry.

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 2:29pm
There was something on the local news about how Seattle police are up in arms (pun noted) about new rules designed to curb excessive force. I guess the job just wouldn't be the same without dangerous police chases, beating handcuffed women, shooting Native American artists holding four-inch knives, roughing up suspects while shouting racial slurs, etc. etc. Police brutality is endemic, due either to psychopathic recruits flying under the radar of psychological testing, or being given a pass by their superiors. We had a police chief (!) up here in Tacoma that was promoted despite repeated warnings about his instability. In the end, he brutalized his wife--who had to take out a restraining order--until he finally gunned her down and killed himself in front of their children. He would have been a menace to society regardless, but there was no excuse for putting him in a position of power over the general citizenry.Jane, the good news here, though? And I believe as negative as I am about American society in general, there is good news here - people are starting to become more and more aware of what you have posted here and are staring to strike back - I applaud the legal strike backs and find the illegal ones unfortunate and no help to the cause whatsoever. But people are becoming aware and are standing up to this. So I do see some positive in all of this. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 2:59pm
Jane, I just did some research regarding the Seattle police department. It turns out that they hammered out an agreement with Eric Holder and the US Dept of Justice about the use of excessive force in the past and now 120 officers of the Seattle police department are suing to have this overturned in Federal Court and are seeking financial compensation. The irony here is so thick I could almost cut it with a knife. I'm reading online of Seattle residents fearful to go out at night - not due to random crime or thugs but due to their own police department. I feel the same exact way here in Phoenix - I have more to fear from the police than from random thugs, even living in a lower income 'hood. Back to the Seattle PD though - apparently they have been on the Justice Department's radar screen for some time as there have been numerous incidents of brutality and use of excessive force and people up in Puget Sound started legally striking back - good for them! We as a nation really do need to organize and claim back our rights from these government thugs that get a pension.

That said, not every last cop is a thug. I will state that CLEARLY here and now. The problem is that there are too many thugs and it seems that there is something about being a cop that bring out the dark and bullying side of human nature in too many of them. Other than pension loss, the only remedies I see are social media and huge lawsuits. And the Justice Department apparently is open to hassling local police departments if there are enough incidents so maybe this is one route to go - file a complaint with the Justice Department, too. And also have a smartphone with video and audio capabilities if you can afford it on you at all times to protect yourself from that percentage of the police that are thugs as you just don't know at any time if you will be hassled or not. Rob

Tradd
8-31-14, 3:10pm
Rob, Sharpton and Jackson have a history of making bad situations worse. They also only focus on things that fit their agenda of white on black.

There was a 9 year old girl killed in Chicago recently. Did they bring their entourages and the media that follow them to bear attention on that? Nope. Why? It's black on black. Huge problem for the black community, but it doesn't fit their (Sharpton and Jackson's) agenda, so they do little, or nothing, about the issue.

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 3:18pm
Rob, Sharpton and Jackson have a history of making bad situations worse. They also only focus on things that fit their agenda of white on black.

There was a 9 year old girl killed in Chicago recently. Did they bring their entourages and the media that follow them to bear attention on that? Nope. Why? It's black on black. Huge problem for the black community, but it doesn't fit their (Sharpton and Jackson's) agenda, so they do little, or nothing, about the issue.I don't disagree with your point here at all. But what has happened transcends your point in my book. Police use of excessive force and police brutality have been going on for far too long - I have witnessed my next door neighbors being assaulted for flying a Guatemalan flag on their property which they own and told that aliens dealing drugs are not appreciated - the neighbors don't deal drugs. I have known them for years and I know the signs of drug dealing - not going on next door. Once you witness something like this you are never the same if you have any sense of right and wrong or justice at all. This is the real reason I broke down and bought a smartphone - I feel horrible that I wasn't able to help their (successful BTW) lawsuit against the Phoenix police via video and audio. Had they had video and audio they may have been able to get more money. Sadly enough, there are posters here who don't understand this is not an isolated incident. Those of us who are Caucasian are less likely to be assaulted for no reason but it's not 100% and you can not trust the police or the courts. Period.

That said, you are not without your point, I'll give you that. The outrage though here stems from a long, long, long term history of police use of excessive force and police brutality pretty much nationwide. If you are interested, google what the police have been up to in Albuquerque lately, killing homeless people that did not provoke them or cause them any threat. Terrifying. I am grateful to this country for picking up the tab for my recent gallbladder surgery but also terrified of it's police nonetheless. Rob

Came back to add - my neighbors have been in the US for years and are citizens, not aliens. It took them a long time but they moved from green cards to naturalization several years ago, before the Phoenix police broke the law by assaulting them for no reason. To me police brutality/use of excessive force is to the point that the US government should print out handouts to anyone legally entering the country admitting to the police being out of control and offering tips as to how to minimize the chances of becoming a victim. Yes, it truly is that bad now. Rob

bae
8-31-14, 3:29pm
Did you say that a .22 is an easy gun for beginners? Maybe I need to buy one, living a block and a half from public housing projects as I do.

I just keep three of these set up with interlocking fields of fire on the approaches to Hound House here, seems to keep the ravaging Seattler WTO hippy protesters at bay quite well.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RqEjrZC_Iu8/TpXSKPDENeI/AAAAAAAALpI/9ClhU4Ctyu8/s640/M1919.jpg

JaneV2.0
8-31-14, 3:51pm
Jane, I just did some research regarding the Seattle police department. It turns out that they hammered out an agreement with Eric Holder and the US Dept of Justice about the use of excessive force in the past and now 120 officers of the Seattle police department are suing to have this overturned in Federal Court and are seeking financial compensation. The irony here is so thick I could almost cut it with a knife. I'm reading online of Seattle residents fearful to go out at night - not due to random crime or thugs but due to their own police department. I feel the same exact way here in Phoenix - I have more to fear from the police than from random thugs, even living in a lower income 'hood. Back to the Seattle PD though - apparently they have been on the Justice Department's radar screen for some time as there have been numerous incidents of brutality and use of excessive force and people up in Puget Sound started legally striking back - good for them! We as a nation really do need to organize and claim back our rights from these government thugs that get a pension.
...

I assume that this culture of brutality was fostered by--or encouraged--by bad police management. Seattle isn't that kind of city--the kind where it's all about violence--so I don't know how they got away with it for so long.

Packy
8-31-14, 5:29pm
A moat, and an enclosure for reptiles around your perimeter--Zurra-style snakes, such as Copperhead and Water Moccasin. Large Zurra Blacksnakes, that can climb trees and walls, and confront you at eye level. That should keep intruders out. But wait until I figure out a safe way for you kids to keep from being bitten too, before you implement this security system.

dmc
8-31-14, 5:36pm
I'm not sure what you want or expect to happen Rob. You seam upset that police get a pension so you want that gone. And your afraid of the police so I guess you don't want them in your neighborhood. I guess your answer to the crime in the minority, crime ridden hoods is just give the hoods enough money to leave the country. I'm not sure who would take them though, Obama can work on that.

So give the poor more money, no police, or if we do have a few make sure they don't get a pension and they behave like Mr. Rodgers. And free transportation to Mexico for health care, and a few extra bucks to pay for that as well.

would this make you feel better? Anything else?

dmc
8-31-14, 5:40pm
I forgot, no social classes, the government can just take care of everyone. Everyone can just live on the same amount. Maybe we can all get together and sing on Saturdays.

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 5:44pm
I'm not sure what you want or expect to happen Rob. You seam upset that police get a pension so you want that gone. And your afraid of the police so I guess you don't want them in your neighborhood. I guess your answer to the crime in the minority, crime ridden hoods is just give the hoods enough money to leave the country. I'm not sure who would take them though, Obama can work on that.

So give the poor more money, no police, or if we do have a few make sure they don't get a pension and they behave like Mr. Rodgers. And free transportation to Mexico for health care, and a few extra bucks to pay for that as well.

would this make you feel better? Anything else?Police behavior around the US is out of control and they have a record now of behaving as if above the law and treating minorities with excessive force, discrimination and disrespect. I want the police to be held accountable when they break the law and I want all victims awarded punitive damages, plus involved officers to forfeit their pensions and their jobs. Is this too much to ask for, that police be held accountable and not break the law? If it is, I have no desire to live in such a country. I deserve better. It's so bad now that the UN is getting involved thrashing the US (as this country so richly has earned) for police brutality and use of excessive force. I don't do denial - no country is worth that, I have to see this for what it is and respond appropriately. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 5:47pm
I forgot, no social classes, the government can just take care of everyone. Everyone can just live on the same amount. Maybe we can all get together and sing on Saturdays.I didn't drink the Kool Aid - I started seeing through the US when I was 9. Obviously, not to this point, but I started grasping some of the basics even then. No one had to tell me anything, I figured it out on my own. YMMV, you get to see things as you wish. That does not make either one of us wrong or right. If how things are in the US now works for you, great. Just don't be surprised that it doesn't work for everybody and those disenfranchised start standing up for themselves. Rob

Tradd
8-31-14, 5:52pm
Rob, you're stuck on the police brutality issue. You can't see past it. There are bigger issues in the black community, and even in the Hispanic one, I'd say. Or do you not give a flying fig about the crime problem that comes from the gangbangers?

bae
8-31-14, 6:07pm
I didn't drink the Kool Aid - I started seeing through the US when I was 9. Obviously, not to this point, but I started grasping some of the basics even then.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

dmc
8-31-14, 6:17pm
I didn't drink the Kool Aid - I started seeing through the US when I was 9. Obviously, not to this point, but I started grasping some of the basics even then. No one had to tell me anything, I figured it out on my own. YMMV, you get to see things as you wish. That does not make either one of us wrong or right. If how things are in the US now works for you, great. Just don't be surprised that it doesn't work for everybody and those disenfranchised start standing up for themselves. Rob

Things are very nice for me. I've never been afraid of the police and appreciate the job that they do. They have to deal with the worst of people. Are there some bad ones, sure, how many police do we have in this country? But for all we know brown attacked Wilson and would have killed him if he had dent shot him, but you don't seam to want to wait for the facts or the grand jury to decide.

But im a rich white guy, I figured out at a early age that I liked nice things and living in nice neighborhoods. So I applied myself and made it happen. I'll admit I started later than 9 though, but didn't expect anyone to give it to me. What the hell have you been doing all these years, surly you don't expect to wait tables part time and get ahead.

I really don't know why you stay in this country that you obviously dislike, from age 9 evidently. I'm not sure what country you think is better, but if I were you I would have figured out by now how to get there.

And I could care less what the UN thinks.

Yossarian
8-31-14, 6:19pm
Or do you not give a flying fig about the crime problem that comes from the gangbangers?

It's actually the same problem, Rob's thinking is just inside out. Get rid of the gangbangers and we can go back to Barney Fife walking the beat. OK, maybe not that far but a lot closer. Actually in my neighborhood you actually could go that far. We are not an orderly community because the cops are nice, the cops are nice because the community is engaged and they don't have to deal with gangs or any real criminals. If they did I'd chip in for the MRAP or whatever it took to address the problem.

But Rob wants them to take on MS-13 with a friendly wave and a .38 revolver.

goldensmom
8-31-14, 6:53pm
There are times that I am afraid of police. For instance, ‘I’m afraid (meaning regretful) that my relatives that are in law enforcement have to work and cannot come to Thanksgiving dinner, Christmas dinner, New Years Eve party -insert family/holiday gathering here-’.

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 7:05pm
Rob, you're stuck on the police brutality issue. You can't see past it. There are bigger issues in the black community, and even in the Hispanic one, I'd say. Or do you not give a flying fig about the crime problem that comes from the gangbangers?Once you have witnessed police brutality right in front of you for no reason whatsoever it's pretty hard to ever trust the police again. About the gangbangers - you have a point here, too. The only problem is that there are innocent, law abiding citizens that are hassled and assaulted by police, just like my next door neighbors from Guatemala. I still feel guilty I was not able to get that illegal assault by the police on video with audio so they could get more money! What do we do about innocent people assaulted and attacked by the police? Certainly you don't believe that police automatically equals good, right, just? I knew differently by the time I was 13. About being stuck on the police brutality issue - let's do something as a nation about this issue, then there would be no reason to be stuck on it. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 7:12pm
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."I truly, truly, truly wish you had witnessed the brutal assault on my neighbors by the Phoenix police for no reason. I don't know if such would just slide off you and you'd make excuses for it? I don't know you so I can't say. Witness something like this, lose my faith and trust permanently. This was no different from police in a third world country that Americans might look down on. We have A LOT of work to do with our police brutality and excessive force and police discrimination and police disdain and disrespect issues as a nation. At least there are people out to gun for maximum dollars get officers locked up and get media coverage to encourage others to stand up....at least this is happening and going forward, I really believe that with the blood in the water of high dollar settlements, there will be more litigation due to police misbehavior going forward. I applaud this and I think it's long, long, long overdue. And I'm not even talking of the fatal shooting as I am police behavior AFTER the shooting. If anyone here is childish, it is the police for believing they should be above the law. I am of the opinion that perhaps my guesses as to outcome won't be 100% correct, but that will be disappointment in the future for certain posters here as to how Ferguson plays out in the courts, especially the cases involving litigation for police actions after the shooting. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 7:17pm
There are times that I am afraid of police. For instance, ‘I’m afraid (meaning regretful) that my relatives that are in law enforcement have to work and cannot come to Thanksgiving dinner, Christmas dinner, New Years Eve party -insert family/holiday gathering here-’.Working in the service industry, the only holiday I ever had off was Christmas. I did get that off most places I worked, I will admit that. But I did not work for an employer that would hide any illegal misbehavior on my part, either. So I see your point and I agree that not all cops are like this - unfortunately, some are and it tends to be the lower classes that bear the brunt of this. Anyone I live around is afraid of the police and certainly they have valid reasons, as do I, to feel this way. I'm just glad to see their illegal behavior go viral around the world and I'm glad to see them start paying some consequences for their behavior - at least we have one termination and one resignation in Ferguson, who knows how many more to come - and I'm glad to see people winning against the police in court more these days. It's progress anyway. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 7:35pm
I'd just like to state for those who don't see it the way I do - I'm not the only out there by far who sees this issue this way. Whether or not you believe that, it's very much true. And to auto side with the police, is that not to tacitly approve of police brutality somewhere like Albuquerque where the police are under investigation for fatally shooting homeless people? I can't speak for anyone but myself but I don't want to live personally with tacitly approving of such. I long ago pledged to question authority and not just accept it at face value.....life has taught me that authority is very often corrupt and it's to my best interest to distrust it (for the most part). Anyway, the point was - I'm not the only one out there that thinks like this. I'd be willing to bet though that since America is so divided by social class, most of you posting here lately probably live in areas where most people think this way (not auto-questioning the police before all else) as I live in an area where I don't know of anyone who doesn't think the way I've been posting. I think this is sad as how is there a bridge to compromise, to weed the evil of out the police, end police brutality, and get huge settlements for the victims of illegal police actions?

I do see one positive development, though. I understand in USA Today that more police departments - perhaps fearing huge lawsuits due to their officer's misconduct (?), are inquiring about body cameras and I think that's great. This seems to be very good CYA for the police, I just hope there is a clause for instant termination/pension loss for those officers who turn the camera off so they can be above the law? That really needs to be taken into account before such a program can EVER be trusted by those most vulnerable to the police. Just sayin'. Rob

Teacher Terry
8-31-14, 8:33pm
I have had friends that were cops & I have lived in places where the police were decent & other places where they are not. Where I live now I saw a cop brutalize someone for no reason. Also if you call the police here no matter what neighborhood you might just end up dead. WE had an incident where the woman called the cops because her mom had a gun and was suicidal. When the police got there they shot the unarmed daughter that called them for help. Then they fired a bunch of shots & killed the Mom. The daughter lived. This type of thing is not unusual here. I really believe that all cops should wear the recording device on their shirt so what really happens is caught on tape. If they are doing their job correctly then there will not be a problem. I have moved a lot thru my life & it really varies on how the police do their job. Some are excellent & some not so much.

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 10:51pm
I have had friends that were cops & I have lived in places where the police were decent & other places where they are not. Where I live now I saw a cop brutalize someone for no reason. Also if you call the police here no matter what neighborhood you might just end up dead. WE had an incident where the woman called the cops because her mom had a gun and was suicidal. When the police got there they shot the unarmed daughter that called them for help. Then they fired a bunch of shots & killed the Mom. The daughter lived. This type of thing is not unusual here. I really believe that all cops should wear the recording device on their shirt so what really happens is caught on tape. If they are doing their job correctly then there will not be a problem. I have moved a lot thru my life & it really varies on how the police do their job. Some are excellent & some not so much.It really is best to never call the cops unless you absolutely have to - this kind of thing that you have posted happens more often than some here seem to think. What a horrible way to handle such a situation as you have posted above. I just don't get it but I do believe change is coming - maybe this will be the good that comes of the Michael Brown/Darren Wilson fiasco and the over the top police behavior afterwards? I sure hope so. Rob

bae
8-31-14, 11:24pm
It really is best to never call the cops unless you absolutely have to -

Define "absolutely have to" please....

ApatheticNoMore
8-31-14, 11:55pm
Define "absolutely have to" please....

Like most everything else in life, it's very difficult to say. I called 911 once for a drug OD (a drug OD as suicide attempt), and if it had indeed been too much for them, the person probably would have been dead by the time they finally entered the building (but noone got shot). So, it's very difficult to say when it will make any positive difference.

gimmethesimplelife
8-31-14, 11:57pm
Define "absolutely have to" please....That's a hard one, Bae.....I can't think of many instances I'd call unless it were needing paperwork to file an insurance claim. Otherwise I'd do like most low income people do and handle whatever issue myself. Anything to avoid dealing with the police. Please read Teacher Terry's post above to get a feel of why I'd feel that way, posted by someone other than myself. Please read Jane's post a page or two back about the police in the largest city in your home state and reflect a sec or two if you would.....I'm not the only one who feels this way, Bae. Rob

bae
9-1-14, 12:14am
So, if a prowler is looking at your neighbor's house, or you hear screams from the apartment next to yours, or you see a child who has been beaten, or someone is selling drugs to school kids on the street corner, or ..., you wouldn't call, you'd "handle whatever issue" yourself?

You sound like a great guy to have as a neighbor!

gimmethesimplelife
9-1-14, 12:21am
So, if a prowler is looking at your neighbor's house, or you hear screams from the apartment next to yours, or you see a child who has been beaten, or someone is selling drugs to school kids on the street corner, or ..., you wouldn't call, you'd "handle whatever issue" yourself?

You sound like a great guy to have as a neighbor!Don't drop dead of shock, Bae, but I see your point and even agree. I'm not a great neighbor to have because I honestly don't know what to do in such situations. I have been traumatized for life as far as how I perceive American police by witnessing the Phoenix police brutally assault my neighbors for no reason other than for flying a Guatemalan flag, which is legal on their property. I really am terrified of the police. I don't know how I'd handle the above situations....nor do I know how my neighbors would, though I will say if I had had a smartphone at the time I would have captured the illegal assault on video with audio so as to be a good neighbor and help their lawsuit gain more dollar traction. In that way I'd be quite glad to help - not the answer you wanted to hear, but it is the truth regardless. I guess if it works AGAINST the police, I'm willing to help....if it involves dealing with the police otherwise, I'm very afraid. Very very very afraid. This will never go away after what I have experienced in my life. Good thing we are not neighbors then, eh? Rob

I do say this terror is all on the police and not on me.....but I am glad that my neighbors were able to get some money out of it and help their kids get an education beyond high school courtesy of the Phoenix police and their need to behave as if above the law. Sometimes when I am depressed I remember that their lawsuit was successful against the Phoenix police and that is sometimes enough for me to keep on keeping on.

Davidwd
9-1-14, 1:10am
We dont have these problems in the Uk, the police now carry body cameras and are completely accountable for their actions. I am not saying it never happens but it is extrememly rare. If anything a far too soft approach is taken towards criminals, but I have faith that the police are quite fair and helpful in the UK.

Tradd
9-1-14, 1:14am
We dont have these problems in the Uk, the police now carry body cameras and are completely accountable for their actions. I am not saying it never happens but it is extrememly rare. If anything a far too soft approach is taken towards criminals, but I have faith that the police are quite fair and helpful in the UK.

Regular patrol officers in the UK aren't armed for the most part, correct?

bae
9-1-14, 2:31am
I have been traumatized for life as far as how I perceive American police by witnessing the Phoenix police brutally assault my neighbors

You might want to talk to some folks about that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder

bae
9-1-14, 2:33am
How effective is it on them jehovahs witnesses?

They don't usually make it past the claymores, so I don't rightly know.

gimmethesimplelife
9-1-14, 3:40am
You might want to talk to some folks about that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorderHow about we fire the officers responsible for this, take away their pension build up (perhaps put into a fund for the victims of illegal police actions?) and have the responsible officers talk to someone about that? I'm one of the aggrieved parties here - but I will admit not as badly as my illegally assaulted neighbors. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-1-14, 11:00am
Hmmm.....It turns out that that officer, Dan Page, who pushed and threatened the CNN reporter Don Lemon, is being allowed to retire on a full pension. Amazing.....I just hope his goose gets cooked via a huge judgment in court thereby crushing him economically. I can cross my fingers and hope for the best though of course this is out of my control. But allowing him to retain his pension? Inexcusable and this further showcases the police mentality that they perceive themselves to be above the law.

But it's not all bad news coming out of Ferguson. The Ferguson police are now wearing body cameras and I think that's great, I really do. Now the protestors have to realize this is a two way street and their behavior also must remain appropriate or the police can release video that can go viral, too. That one works two ways and I do believe it should. Rob

Came back to add though that I see one major problem with these cameras. What's to stop a crooked cop from just turning it off to enjoy being above the law once more? There needs to be a policy requiring instant termination and instant pension loss for turning their camera off, otherwise the cameras are a nice idea but potentially meaningless. I certainly would not trust the police to keep the cameras on if such would make them look bad - there really does need to be a policy with severe economic consequences should an officer just turn off their camera. I certainly would not trust any police officer to keep a camera on if it worked against them.....Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-1-14, 11:05am
We dont have these problems in the Uk, the police now carry body cameras and are completely accountable for their actions. I am not saying it never happens but it is extrememly rare. If anything a far too soft approach is taken towards criminals, but I have faith that the police are quite fair and helpful in the UK.I'm jealous. I really am. I am aware that there are problems in the UK but how nice it must be to live somewhere where you don't have to live in fear of the police. I'm hoping, really hoping, that this whole sordid mess - the good that comes out of it? Maybe police nationwide will start wearing cameras? Its sure great CYA for the police and at this point they need the CYA. There is a Democrat somewhere that is proposing that police officers be forced to wear cameras if they want to get some kind of federal funding and I hope this gains some traction and sticks. Rob

CathyA
9-1-14, 12:02pm
Rob..........this is starting to feel like you have an OCD problem. Why do you have to keep going on and on and on and on?
There are times when I'm ashamed of this country, yes........but I also know that probably every country has its own problems and deficiencies, and for the most part, this is still a reasonable, safe country to live in. There are so many other places you could live here in the U.S. and not be so tormented. It's starting to feel like you'd rather stay put and continue to hate the police and feel like a victim. Why don't you take this energy you have and look for a more peaceful place to live?

gimmethesimplelife
9-1-14, 12:13pm
Rob..........this is starting to feel like you have an OCD problem. Why do you have to keep going on and on and on and on?
There are times when I'm ashamed of this country, yes........but I also know that probably every country has its own problems and deficiencies, and for the most part, this is still a reasonable, safe country to live in. There are so many other places you could live here in the U.S. and not be so tormented. It's starting to feel like you'd rather stay put and continue to hate the police and feel like a victim. Why don't you take this energy you have and look for a more peaceful place to live?At the moment I can't afford to make any changes, though I do agree you have a point. I'd really miss this neighborhood I live in, too, its so vibrant and alive compared to a "better" area to the North. Here no one cares if you are struggling, no one cares what you wear, no one cares or judges you if you don't have a car, and if you do, no one cares what you drive. Other than the police, this neighborhood does work for me. I also appreciate being so close to the border and also to the Hispanic food markets that are cheaper than the grocery stores to the North of me. It's not all bad. I don't have an OCD problem per se, it's just that this is an issue I am very passionate about. You might feel different yourself if you witnessed police brutality right in front of you? I can't say as I don't know you. To witness this makes it much less someone else's problem and a problem confined to "that area" or the bad part of town. And I don't feel 100% like a victim. Did I not speak of the joy I felt that my neighbor's lawsuit against the Phoenix police was successful? Did I not speak of my action plan should the police pull such with me? Did I not mention I carry a smartphone with me at all times to protect myself from the police? I'm taking steps to NOT be a victim - not just passively accepting such illegal injustice as I have witnessed. But for me it is very important to call this issue for what it is - otherwise I'm just as guilty as the police. As I've said, to say or do nothing is tacit approval for the police to treat the next person this way, and I won't live with that.

That said, I realize not every last cop is crooked. The problem is, some are, and because of that, the police can't be trusted. When the police start becoming more accountable for their actions and once they start facing real consequences for their illegal misconduct, then maybe I will feel a little more safe from them. Until then, it's best to call this for what it is and to avoid all contact if humanly possible. As I've said before, I'm far from the only person out there who feels this way. I don't mean to be sarcastic here, really I don't, but what I will say is Welcome to Another America - in the one I'm part of, people fear the police and know that on average they believe they are above the law and have a tendency - though not all do this, I know that - to act accordingly. Rob

Yossarian
9-1-14, 12:19pm
I'm jealous. I really am.

Jealousy isn't healthy. Let me help you: http://police-brutality-uk.co.uk/category/police-brutality/

gimmethesimplelife
9-1-14, 12:25pm
Jealousy isn't healthy. Let me help you: http://police-brutality-uk.co.uk/category/police-brutality/Did you not see a HUGE difference in what you posted re the UK and police here? In some of these stories the police are being investigated and/or are facing charges or potential charges. Also there is publicity surrounding these cases - no expectation for things to be quietly buried. It seems on the surface much healthier and saner than US police behavior - at least there is publicity and a realistic chance for consequences. Here we don't enjoy much of that I'm afraid. I'm of the opinion that we as a nation not only can do better but deserve better. Rob

Yossarian
9-1-14, 12:40pm
Did you not see a HUGE difference in what you posted re the UK and police here? In some of these stories the police are being investigated and/or are facing charges or potential charges. Also there is publicity surrounding these cases - no expectation for things to be quietly buried. It seems on the surface much healthier and saner than US police behavior - at least there is publicity and a realistic chance for consequences. Here we don't enjoy much of that I'm afraid. I'm of the opinion that we as a nation not only can do better but deserve better. Rob

Rob, you obviously are committed to seeing whatever you want to see. Unless you have lost your mind you surely know the whole Ferguson thing is being investigated. So what's you point? Our local news has lots of stories about investigations into incidents. Lot's of publicity. They face charges (Google is your friend).

Clearly you'd much rather fan your victimization fetish than look at facts.

How many protestors died at the hands of the potentially undertrained Ferguson police force (who were being shot at)?

How many people (with their hands in thier pocket walking away from police) died at the hands of the well trained London police force when they had the same situation?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault


Yes, there are problems that need to be addressed, but you are beyond naive if you think problems don't occur elsewhere too.

iris lilies
9-1-14, 12:46pm
I'm watching the Danish/Swedish version of The Bridge and several versions of bad cops are figuring in the story line of the fictional production, including an incident of police brutality that covers several episodes. Copenhagen has its badnick cops as well.

As an aside, the Swedes carry guns when out on police detective work (as I learned according to this tv show. Call me shallow if you like, but I think a fair number of actual police customs are revealed in these shows.) I was happy to see this after watching Happy Valley, a crime drama about a police women solving crimes in West Yorkshire. The poor woman did not carry a gun, and apparently didn't even have access to a gun in the police station when guns were clearly called for. And yeah, she suffered because of that.

gimmethesimplelife
9-1-14, 12:59pm
Rob, you obviously are committed to seeing whatever you want to see. Unless you have lost your mind you surely know the whole Ferguson thing is being investigated. So what's you point? Our local news has lots of stories about investigations into incidents. Lot's of publicity. They face charges (Google is your friend).

Clearly you'd much rather fan your victimization fetish than look at facts.

How many protestors died at the hands of the potentially undertrained Ferguson police force (who were being shot at)?

How many people (with their hands in thier pocket walking away from police) died at the hands of the well trained London police force when they had the same situation?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault


Yes, there are problems that need to be addressed, but you are beyond naive if you think problems don't occur elsewhere too.I am not unaware that these problems occur elsewhere, of course they do. What bothers me here is that this country wants to have it's fingers in everyone else's pie and then doesn't want to fess up to it's own shortcomings unless forced into it. As for the investigation - I am aware that the whole Ferguson thing is being investigated. Do you honestly believe were it not for social media and the humiliation of international media coverage thanks to social media that this investigation could be trusted and would be moving along at a more reasonable clip? I sure don't. But then I have witnessed police brutality right in front of me before, and it seems that not many here are taking this seriously. Do you honestly expect me to ever trust the police again after witnessing such? Would it even be sane or reasonable for me to do so given what I have witnessed? And if I were to move to a "nicer" area - that would make me statistically safer from the police as there is an assumption you are more likely to be able to afford an attorney and gun for your rights and for big dollars - but I still would take this experience with me and I'd never trust. Major changes need to be made before I could ever trust the police again. We'll see the extent of the changes brought about by this whole Ferguson fiasco - who knows, maybe major changes will be taking place? I don't read the future, it's possible. I don't think there have been enough high dollar judgments against the police yet for major change to take place. We'll see what unfolds I guess. Rob

Yossarian
9-1-14, 1:03pm
We dont have these problems in the Uk, the police now carry body cameras and are completely accountable for their actions. I am not saying it never happens but it is extrememly rare. If anything a far too soft approach is taken towards criminals, but I have faith that the police are quite fair and helpful in the UK.

So do most of us here.

In the UK:


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/only-half-of-britons-trust-the-police-survey-reveals-9065547.html

More than a quarter of Britons do not trust the police, a new poll has revealed.

But half of those surveyed said they still have faith in officers, according the ComRes survey for ITV.

In response to the statement "I trust the police", 26% said they disagreed, while 50% said they agreed.

The findings come in the wake of a series of public controversies involving the police in recent months, including claims officers lied over the 'Plebgate' affair, and anger over the shooting dead and subsequent inquest of suspected gangster Mark Duggan.

A jury found earlier this month that Duggan was lawfully killed when he was shot dead by armed officers in Tottenham, north London, in August 2011, sparking riots across England.

But his family claimed he had been "executed" by officers and have criticised the jury's verdict as "perverse" because they had also concluded he did not have a gun when he was shot.

Yossarian
9-1-14, 1:10pm
But then I have witnessed police brutality right in front of me before, and it seems that not many here are taking this seriously. Do you honestly expect me to ever trust the police again after witnessing such? Would it even be sane or reasonable for me to do so given what I have witnessed?

Actually I think it is bordering on insane to not recognize that there there are lots of interactions and the one that you saw doesn't reflect all of them.

The weird dynamic here Rob is that I'm not a big fan of the cops myself. But you have just taken things so far to the exteme it's not leaving much room for reasonable discussion.

gimmethesimplelife
9-1-14, 1:20pm
Actually I think it is bordering on insane to not recognize that there there are lots of interactions and the one that you saw doesn't reflect all of them.

The weird dynamic here Rob is that I'm not a big fan of the cops myself. But you have just taken things so far to the exteme it's not leaving much room for reasonable discussion.Obviously, I don't consider my take extreme at all. I would question the intensity a bit to be honest with you if my neighbors - not the Guatemalans, btw, of course they won't ever see the police the same way again, either - didn't see this issue the same way. I don't know but I'm guessing some of it is social class conditioning and some of it is life experiences....I do know of a few people with money who agree with me though, so that blows my theory out of the water. Let's just say in my case that the trust has been permanently lost. Rob

I just realized this is a holiday - I'm going to take a break from this thread for a day or two barring significant events coming out of Ferguson. Honestly, by this time everyone knows my take and I'm not changing my mind and neither is anyone else.....this is a bit of a hot topic it seems. This took my a little bit by surprise but then again, this is not my neighborhood I live in on the board here and we do all have own unique experiences that factor into our takes here. Out of respect to that I'm giving it a rest for a bit. Happy Labor Day to all.

iris lilies
9-1-14, 2:28pm
I am just getting caught up on neighborhood news from our listserv, and here's a note from one of our cops, not even our official beat cop. Gary is assigned to our district, not specifically to our neighborhood:

Gary Wiegert
Aug 30

I had a subject abandon a bike behind the house on the north side of 2000 block of Rutger street that is currently being rehabbed. The subject traveled from McKay, then Park Avenue and eventually through the east alley of Benton Place. The bike more then likely came from someone's yard or a garage burglary. The bike is described as blue and gray, Avelon, 7 speed bike. Please let me know if anyone knows the identity of the owner.

It's a Barney Fife message which police here deliver when they are doing Barney Fife type policing. Gary lives in my neighborhood. He's an official lobbyist for the main pro-legalization of marijuana group. His superiors are not happy about that role, but his union is backing him up in being able to do that. And what's funny is that he has told us that he's not even necessarily in favor of legalization, he wants the option to be explored seriously. Outlawing it has more effect on police work that we all would like. He's big in Libertarian politics locally.

This is just one brief portrait of a policeman we know. There's no brutilization going on, just neighborhood policing.

bae
9-1-14, 2:52pm
Iris - I worked a scene here a couple of years ago.

Domestic violence. Pretty ugly stuff. It had been ongoing.

This time, by the time law enforcement and emergency medical/rescue responded, the abused spouse and children had already fled the scene. We had credible statements that there was nobody else in the house but the abusive fellow.

Who was standing on the porch, with a gun, screaming. And threatening the first officer on scene. (Fire/medical/rescue don't go in first here before law enforcement "secures" the scene, it's a rule.)

I watched that officer talk the Bad Guy down, over the course of the next hour or so. He stood there in range, using words not guns. One of the bravest, and dumbest, things I've ever seen. The officer has a family and kids, and I presume he wanted to go home to them that night. He chose to assume the risk to himself of not simply shooting the fellow waving the gun at him, and called off the officers who were in place with rifles, while he talked the man into voluntarily disarming, so we could sedate him and transport him to a facility for mental evaluation.

Packy
9-1-14, 3:21pm
So just what are you kids trying to say, here? Avalon bikes are those cheaply made bikes you can get at W-Mart or wherever. It's no wonder the suspect dumped it. Every now and then, I see the stereotypical character I call M.A.M.A. NOW! out and around. This is the fat little gal that has several little hyperactive kids, and they are out shopping. When she calls attention to one of them to cease and desist getting into things, She says NOW! Stop It NOW!......Put that candy bar down, NOW! I figure she has the TV on at all times, and has seen every episode of Foxes' "COPS" several times. Thats where she derives her role model as an authority figure, apprehending a perp. "Cody---stop hitting your sister---NOW!" See? She prolly drives an old Crown Vic, and kicks 'er on down, just to hear that waaaaaaaahhhh sound, too.

iris lilies
9-1-14, 4:20pm
.... And threatening the first officer on scene. (Fire/medical/rescue don't go in first here before law enforcement "secures" the scene, it's a rule.)

That's a good policy. In recent years here in my city we had EMT go to the aid of a house where a domestic issue was taking place and the ER guy was shot dead. I'm not sure if they knew at the time they sent the emergency vehicle of the domestic problem.


I watched that officer talk the Bad Guy down, over the course of the next hour or so. He stood there in range, using words not guns. One of the bravest, and dumbest, things I've ever seen. The officer has a family and kids, and I presume he wanted to go home to them that night. He chose to assume the risk to himself of not simply shooting the fellow waving the gun at him, and called off the officers who were in place with rifles, while he talked the man into voluntarily disarming, so we could sedate him and transport him to a facility for mental evaluation.
That is great! If I were his wife I would have been furious with him, watching that happen, but great for all concerned that it turned out ok.

creaker
9-1-14, 4:42pm
Iris - I worked a scene here a couple of years ago.

Domestic violence. Pretty ugly stuff. It had been ongoing.

This time, by the time law enforcement and emergency medical/rescue responded, the abused spouse and children had already fled the scene. We had credible statements that there was nobody else in the house but the abusive fellow.

Who was standing on the porch, with a gun, screaming. And threatening the first officer on scene. (Fire/medical/rescue don't go in first here before law enforcement "secures" the scene, it's a rule.)

I watched that officer talk the Bad Guy down, over the course of the next hour or so. He stood there in range, using words not guns. One of the bravest, and dumbest, things I've ever seen. The officer has a family and kids, and I presume he wanted to go home to them that night. He chose to assume the risk to himself of not simply shooting the fellow waving the gun at him, and called off the officers who were in place with rifles, while he talked the man into voluntarily disarming, so we could sedate him and transport him to a facility for mental evaluation.

That is amazing - and points out one of my peeves when people say all <whatever> are <whatever>. I think we deny the existence of individuals, and individual acts, whether they be good or bad when we stereotype. This sounds like an awesome individual.

Packy
9-1-14, 4:54pm
Awhile back, I suggested the formation of a "Please Department", to get actively involved in law enforcement. That, in lieu of Daryl Gates-type SWAT TEAMS, ramping up minor incidents. But, you kids were too embroiled in a standoff with G.T.S.L.,( the Phoenix guy), to acknowledge what a brilliant idea it is. Ha. Now, here you are--going on and on and on about the kinder, gentler cops you share your donuts with. Another thing is: I believe stereotypes are beneficial. If you identify yourself in a negative stereotype, it gives you a model of behavior to avoid, from now on. See? One thing that was supposed to have been done during the Parker( and then Gates) regime in L.A. was to actually reduce the ratio of officers to citizens. Theoretically, the plan was to pay more for better-qualified people, and train them. Quality before Quantity. What actually happened was, the qualifications were: Prior military service, in combat or MP duty; Participation in Tackle Football in H.S., College, or the Pros. And last but not least, be a native of the Deep South, Texas, Oklahoma., so you will be able to deal with "those people" effectively. See? That is the stereotypical L.A. cop of the 1950's-60's-70's. I am serious. Bill Parker had been on the LAPD for 15 years, and when WWII started, he enlisted at age 37 & participated in the D-Day Invasion. When the war ended, he went right back to the LAPD, and became chief in 1950. So, he was a tough cookie. To cover his ulterior motives, he did in fact hire token minorities. But, back to here, this locale--After a tax increase was craftily shoved through several years ago, they hired more & more & more deputies. You can't go anywhere now, without passing several patrol cars. But, are they better personnel, with strong People Skills? Not from what I've heard. Small Man Complex? More than likely. And, they're not about to spend their time talking some fool down from the ledge. Essentially, what we have is the summary Death Penalty for failure to comply with a policemans' order. When they shoot someone, the officer goes on a paid leave, and after the formality of an internal invstigation, everything is back to normal. That, is how it works, here.

Teacher Terry
9-1-14, 5:57pm
I think the police force really does vary. When I lived in the Midwest they did an awesome job. For some reason here every time there is an issue the person ends up dead. I think a culture develops in a police department about what is allowable behavior and what is not. I really hope that the body cameras make a difference and that if they turn them off that they face repercussions. However, I am not in favor of people losing their pensions over one incident. Also every country has their problems. My DIL is from Europe and she has interesting stories about different countries over there. Although she loves her country she prefers to live here.

LDAHL
9-2-14, 9:34am
I think the police force really does vary. When I lived in the Midwest they did an awesome job. For some reason here every time there is an issue the person ends up dead. I think a culture develops in a police department about what is allowable behavior and what is not. I really hope that the body cameras make a difference and that if they turn them off that they face repercussions. However, I am not in favor of people losing their pensions over one incident. Also every country has their problems. My DIL is from Europe and she has interesting stories about different countries over there. Although she loves her country she prefers to live here.

I understand some defense attorneys take issue with cameras on cops because they worry that juries will tend to view the visual evidence from the cops' perspective. My guess is that in this self-involved age of ours it won't be long before everyone decides they want to document every second of their lives anyway.

gimmethesimplelife
9-2-14, 10:14am
Awhile back, I suggested the formation of a "Please Department", to get actively involved in law enforcement. That, in lieu of Daryl Gates-type SWAT TEAMS, ramping up minor incidents. But, you kids were too embroiled in a standoff with G.T.S.L.,( the Phoenix guy), to acknowledge what a brilliant idea it is. Ha. Now, here you are--going on and on and on about the kinder, gentler cops you share your donuts with. Another thing is: I believe stereotypes are beneficial. If you identify yourself in a negative stereotype, it gives you a model of behavior to avoid, from now on. See? One thing that was supposed to have been done during the Parker( and then Gates) regime in L.A. was to actually reduce the ratio of officers to citizens. Theoretically, the plan was to pay more for better-qualified people, and train them. Quality before Quantity. What actually happened was, the qualifications were: Prior military service, in combat or MP duty; Participation in Tackle Football in H.S., College, or the Pros. And last but not least, be a native of the Deep South, Texas, Oklahoma., so you will be able to deal with "those people" effectively. See? That is the stereotypical L.A. cop of the 1950's-60's-70's. I am serious. Bill Parker had been on the LAPD for 15 years, and when WWII started, he enlisted at age 37 & participated in the D-Day Invasion. When the war ended, he went right back to the LAPD, and became chief in 1950. So, he was a tough cookie. To cover his ulterior motives, he did in fact hire token minorities. But, back to here, this locale--After a tax increase was craftily shoved through several years ago, they hired more & more & more deputies. You can't go anywhere now, without passing several patrol cars. But, are they better personnel, with strong People Skills? Not from what I've heard. Small Man Complex? More than likely. And, they're not about to spend their time talking some fool down from the ledge. Essentially, what we have is the summary Death Penalty for failure to comply with a policemans' order. When they shoot someone, the officer goes on a paid leave, and after the formality of an internal invstigation, everything is back to normal. That, is how it works, here.Did you really consider it a standoff? Rob

iris lilies
9-2-14, 9:06pm
Since Rob was asking for community policing just a page or two ago, here's what happened in Ferguson yesterday:



http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/84/5840b77c-b629-5838-8d60-4bfee3d2d56a/5405e423bc003.preview-620.jpg

dmc
9-2-14, 9:15pm
They called in the Cavalry ?

iris lilies
9-2-14, 10:06pm
Rob has a thing about the cops, I have a thing about liberal media outlets I use such as the St. Louis Post Dispatch. The story here is: Perps robbed teen of phone, this perp was chased by random men on horsebck (i.e. Rob's favored ' community policemen') and this perp was caught

This morning's newspaper showed a photo (below) of Rob's evil Ferguson police playing Nazi death camp. I suspect Rob will get so lathered up when he sees it that he may pass out, so fair warning in advance, Rob. For the race baiting St. Louis Post Dispatch, this (Ferguson) is the story that keeps on giving. I wrote to the Post-Dispatch this morning to ask where the digital version of the story was on their website because I couldn't find it.The editor wrote back to say "I wish I had a better answer than the truth, which is somehow while this news item made it to print it did not make it for online.That has been rectified and the story now is live at STLToday with the headline "Men on Horseback Help Detail Ferguson Robbery Suspect."

Ok, whatever.

Here is that photo (below). Notice how it shows the horsemen standing quietly, peacefully, while the cops are action men, ready to (in Rob's POV) let the dog loose on the perp on the ground to tear out his throat or to shoot him (is that a gun pointing at perp?) Seems to me this will rile up everyone all over again. Yet the Post-Dispatch couldn't "somehow" get the story up online with a full range of photos. Just the bait photo was considered appropriate for publication, hmmmmmm.

-------get ready Rob, view only if you think you can stand it-------





http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/03/80371d4b-58b8-5a7f-88a1-0cc12579e892/5405fc8ae8e54.preview-620.jpg

Here perp lies on ground, busted!

It wasn't until the Post-Dispatch put up a 5 image sequence on their website that a truer picture emerged of what happened in the capture of the young thug and that is men on horses want after him! . I would think that untrained persons chasing down humans with horses could be a problem but in community policing anything goes.

Related to earlier discussion and sort of to this story, I do not think cameras on cops will solve much. I think that grainy, poorly filmed police action may often raise more questions than it answers. But sure, go ahead, add those devices to cop gear, it's only tax payer money.

full story here:

http://www.stltoday.com/gallery/news/local/crime-and-courts/photos-men-on-horseback-help-detain-ferguson-robbery-suspect/collection_375605a7-4cfe-5615-9b0e-8b5a166bd985.html#0

Tradd
9-2-14, 10:30pm
Iris, that looks like something Bae would enjoy being part of the action on!

iris lilies
9-2-14, 10:31pm
Iris, that looks like something Bae would enjoy being part of the action on!

I was thinking of bae the whole time I saw this photo spread. But he doesn't do horses--yet. :)

Packy
9-3-14, 12:05am
That photo---all you'd need is to photoshop out the perp on the ground, and me on my bicycle IN , and--it'd be true to life!

bae
9-3-14, 1:54am
I don't do horses. I have man-tracking hounds though. They mostly find lost souls however, though they are descended from my grandpas's line of chain-gang-escapee tracking hounds.

Davidwd
9-3-14, 4:25am
Originally Posted by Yossarian
Jealousy isn't healthy. Let me help you: http://police-brutality-uk.co.uk/cat...ice-brutality/
Did you not see a HUGE difference in what you posted re the UK and police here? In some of these stories the police are being investigated and/or are facing charges or potential charges. Also there is publicity surrounding these cases - no expectation for things to be quietly buried. It seems on the surface much healthier and saner than US police behavior - at least there is publicity and a realistic chance for consequences. Here we don't enjoy much of that I'm afraid. I'm of the opinion that we as a nation not only can do better but deserve better. Rob




Agree, there is a great deal of accountability here. I am not saying it never happens or there are never mistakes but generally speaking things are pretty fair over over here if you stay the right side of the law. I think the whole gun culture thing in the U.S is wrong. Too many innocent people are being killed due to the American lust for weapons.

Davidwd
9-3-14, 4:30am
Regular patrol officers in the UK aren't armed for the most part, correct?

Correct, only specialist armed response vehicles, 1 in each County.

Yossarian
9-3-14, 8:41am
I think the whole gun culture thing in the U.S is wrong.

LOL, way to gratuitously throw a little gas on the fire >8)




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Operation_Upshot-Knothole_-_Badger_001.jpg

Davidwd
9-3-14, 9:22am
Yes, I know its a sore topic in the US just as it was here when they outlawed firearms and they all had to be handed in to be destroyed. It was a shame because the majority of owners were safe and sensible but when they fall into the wrong hands the consequences are devastating. The US has to go down this road every year there are more indiscriminate shootings at schools etc. As terrorists infiltrate western countries more and more and find it easier to access automatic weapons the outcome will be unthinkable . The ISIS movement is gathering pace and the UK has raised its terrorist threat level to severe. Scary times ahead.

gimmethesimplelife
9-3-14, 9:27am
Originally Posted by Yossarian
Jealousy isn't healthy. Let me help you: http://police-brutality-uk.co.uk/cat...ice-brutality/
Did you not see a HUGE difference in what you posted re the UK and police here? In some of these stories the police are being investigated and/or are facing charges or potential charges. Also there is publicity surrounding these cases - no expectation for things to be quietly buried. It seems on the surface much healthier and saner than US police behavior - at least there is publicity and a realistic chance for consequences. Here we don't enjoy much of that I'm afraid. I'm of the opinion that we as a nation not only can do better but deserve better. Rob




Agree, there is a great deal of accountability here. I am not saying it never happens or there are never mistakes but generally speaking things are pretty fair over over here if you stay the right side of the law. I think the whole gun culture thing in the U.S is wrong. Too many innocent people are being killed due to the American lust for weapons.Agreed 100% about what you posted about the gun culture in the US. To me it's very scary and it's so ingrained in the American mentality I can't see it ever changing. I've learned to use it as a screen out tool in my personal life so it has some positive bearing on my life - those who are very into guns I am wary of and such people more than likely are not going to see eye to eye with me on a wide range of issues. I've learned in my life off this board to have little to so with such people though I'll be civil and even pleasant on a very superficial basis to their face. And I agree that far too many innocent people are being killed due to the American lust for weapons - a very good way of putting it. Cheers from the other side of the pond! Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-3-14, 9:29am
LOL, way to gratuitously throw a little gas on the fire >8)




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Operation_Upshot-Knothole_-_Badger_001.jpgLOL gas on the fire? Sometimes it seems to me that that is my role here. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-3-14, 9:33am
Yes, I know its a sore topic in the US just as it was here when they outlawed firearms and they all had to be handed in to be destroyed. It was a shame because the majority of owners were safe and sensible but when they fall into the wrong hands the consequences are devastating. The US has to go down this road every year there are more indiscriminate shootings at schools etc. As terrorists infiltrate western countries more and more and find it easier to access automatic weapons the outcome will be unthinkable . The ISIS movement is gathering pace and the UK has raised its terrorist threat level to severe. Scary times ahead.I can't speak for the UK but I actually see some good in the future of the US due to more people becoming aware of police brutality and the tendency of some (but not all) cops to behave as they are above the law. There is a movement about (who knows if it will be succcesful or stick though) for less militarization of the police, for police to wear body cameras, and more and more people are suing for huge settlements when victims of illegal police misconduct. We really need wide sweeping changes in the US style of policing - it allows for too many victims and too many lawsuits in retaliation and not much trust or cooperation. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-3-14, 9:59am
For anyone interested, there is what I consider an interesting article on Salon.com that you can probably access by googling I'm Not Afraid to Die Why America Will Never Be The Same Post-Ferguson. I find the article so inspirational and it shows you how (to some degree anyway) how much hatred and disgust there is now for the status quo of the police getting away with being above the law. This is not going to go away. I'm so grateful, I really am.....I lost my emotional investment in the United States years ago but I do find joy in the rest of the world seeing American rot up close and personal. And I do find relief in the belief that change of some kind is coming. As I've posted many times, this is not just quietly going to go away, and thankfully due to the advent of social media, there is no real possibility that it can. Good! Rob

Just came back to add: On a more personal note, I'm still dating that man I met and went out with that one time after he asked me my take on Ferguson at the end of a banquet shift. Amazing to think that something positive could come out of this tragedy for me in this way.

LDAHL
9-3-14, 12:33pm
Too many innocent people are being killed due to the American lust for weapons.

It’s not so much lust for weapons as a lust for freedom. Americans really, really hate being told what to do. We’ve traditionally accepted living in possibly a less safe, less secure, less healthy society than more docile nations might not see as a reasonable price to pay. We are not, generally speaking, a reasonable people in the sense of trading liberty for social benefits. Personally, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

gimmethesimplelife
9-3-14, 10:13pm
It’s not so much lust for weapons as a lust for freedom. Americans really, really hate being told what to do. We’ve traditionally accepted living in possibly a less safe, less secure, less healthy society than more docile nations might not see as a reasonable price to pay. We are not, generally speaking, a reasonable people in the sense of trading liberty for social benefits. Personally, I wouldn’t have it any other way.Interesting post. I think you may be on to something here. I for myself know I'd rather have the social benefits over the liberty any day as I've seen the price of liberty and the inequalities that arise as a result of this thinking and how easy it can be to fall through the cracks. Maybe this is somewhere near the crux of my issues with the US. It makes sense to me what you have posted here as I do believe many Americans see things this way and I don't and I can see where my thinking is pretty much a 180 in many ways from what you have posted here. Rob

Gregg
9-4-14, 10:23am
It’s not so much lust for weapons as a lust for freedom. Americans really, really hate being told what to do. We’ve traditionally accepted living in possibly a less safe, less secure, less healthy society than more docile nations might not see as a reasonable price to pay. We are not, generally speaking, a reasonable people in the sense of trading liberty for social benefits. Personally, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

I don't disagree at all with the American desire for freedom, although I do think the rugged, cowboy individualist now pretty much only exists in our egos and on Madison Ave. Another post that, but the real point is all these senseless deaths. They aren't in the name of freedom. For some reason more and more people are considering violence as a proper alternative in dispute resolution.

I've told the story, ad nausium, that there were more guns in the parking lot of my high school than there were students in the school. That culture wasn't gun crazy, they were simply tools that we used and almost everyone had them. Aside from one very tragic accidental death (and it really was a million to one fluke ricochet) that proliferation of guns never caused a single problem. Apparently there was not a single person in my home town that didn't get the message that guns were never to be used against other people.

So how did that message break down? What changed? If guns weren't a problem back then, they don't HAVE to be now, but obviously they are. A person with no problems + a gun (or 100 guns) = no problem. But as soon as the first part of that equation changes we do have a problem. What caused our society to lower the value of human life to the point where pulling out a gun and firing is acceptable in anything but the most extreme, threatening circumstance?

Nothing could be more politically convenient than a stand off over inanimate objects that have 1000 little nuances to allow infinite tweaking of the laws to satisfy all constituents that progress is being made. Until the citizens stop self-medicating and expose their heads to the light of day and start to demand real change aimed at the roots of our evils (poverty, access to education and healthcare, etc.) the political elite will be happy as clams to remain in charge of the flock. But of course that will never happen because its too much work and the way we have it now is so... convenient.

Alan
9-4-14, 10:31am
So how did that message break down? What changed? We've devalued human life, most notably in the abortion debate where popular consensus seems to be that a life is not a life unless I value it, and we've made excuses for thuggery because it makes us feel better to hold those we look down upon to lower standards. It is the societal cost of progressivism.

jp1
9-4-14, 11:09am
I'd be curious to see if gun deaths are also up in other countries that have legalized abortion.

Alan
9-4-14, 11:13am
I'd be curious to see if gun deaths are also up in other countries that have legalized abortion.Expand that curiosity to violence rather than specific gun deaths. Guns are just a tool of violent people.

jp1
9-4-14, 11:18am
Fair enough. Whatever you want to show to justify your position that societal acceptance of abortion causes increases in violence or death will be fine with me.

Alan
9-4-14, 11:26am
Fair enough. Whatever you want to show to justify your position that societal acceptance of abortion causes increases in violence or death will be fine with me.That's the funny thing about positions and how they are perceived, the one doing the perceiving seldom scratches the surface of hot button issues. The devaluation of life goes beyond societal acceptance of abortion, although that remains an excellent example.

flowerseverywhere
9-4-14, 12:00pm
We've devalued human life, most notably in the abortion debate where popular consensus seems to be that a life is not a life unless I value it, and we've made excuses for thuggery because it makes us feel better to hold those we look down upon to lower standards. It is the societal cost of progressivism.

Where did you find your statistics to support this point of view. China for example has a very high abortion rate. http://world.time.com/2013/09/30/what-happens-when-only-1-2-of-chinese-women-take-the-pill-13-million-abortions/

yet a very low intentional homicide rate.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Could legal gun ownership be a factor in our high murder rate? In china, private citizens are generally not allowed to own guns and illegal gun ownership has very high penalties, like death.

ApatheticNoMore
9-4-14, 12:12pm
That's the funny thing about positions and how they are perceived, the one doing the perceiving seldom scratches the surface of hot button issues. The devaluation of life goes beyond societal acceptance of abortion, although that remains an excellent example.

It's an example. War devalues life? In fact I can think of nothing that more devalues life than the wholesale murder of not fetuses but born human beings that is war - what can even compare? We live in a country ALWAYS ALWAYS at war. But once in a blue moon a war is justified, fine whatever, I'm not going to disagree with the hypothetical and the warmongers can keep WWII. But that's not what's going on at present or anytime in the recent past (not since WWII I suspect). Being indifferent to what seems an epidemic of police brutality devalues life. Judging human worth on external attributes (how rich they are, how much status they have, whether they are "wiinners" or "losers", whether they have "bling", whether they have made all the "right choices" or not, whether they are "too old" etc.) devalues life in a sense doesn't it? Because life is none of those things, it is the raw, existing, living, force. Yes I think this society devalues life.


Interesting post. I think you may be on to something here. I for myself know I'd rather have the social benefits over the liberty any day as I've seen the price of liberty and the inequalities that arise as a result of this thinking and how easy it can be to fall through the cracks. Maybe this is somewhere near the crux of my issues with the US.

and you are quite sure you will keep those social benefits with no civil liberties? Without the right to protest? Without the right to strike? Without the right to trial? Etc. Benevolent rulers will just grant them? (if one of those benevolent dictators is on offer I'll take one :) ). Are police states really good examples of social benefits in general? Yes the U.S. is a police state even on paper (NDAA) (and yes it's a matter of degree, a continuum, and yes there are worse).

bae
9-4-14, 12:25pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect


Also, you might want to look at the data on trends in *rates* of crime in America, before spinning up just-so stories. For instance, amidst all this hand-wringing about today's super-high OMG murder rates...:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/05/us-murder-rate-track-be-lowest-century

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html

http://www.motherjones.com/files/blog_lead_homicide_2013.jpg

Gardenarian
9-4-14, 1:59pm
Hi there. Just stopping by to see why this thread is 68 pages long!
Enjoy your discussion :)

Alan
9-4-14, 2:06pm
Hi there. Just stopping by to see why this thread is 68 pages long!
Enjoy your discussion :)
LOL, if you judge the value of a discussion by the number of pages, there's a way to make it half (or a quarter, or less) as valuable. In your settings you can choose how many posts you see per page. I've got mine set at 20 so for me, this discussion is only 34 pages long.

gimmethesimplelife
9-4-14, 11:48pm
Methinks this 68 pages will continue to grow, whether or not there is an indictment. For the simple reason that whatever the outcome here, there is no way to make everyone happy. Rob

iris lilies
9-5-14, 12:56am
Methinks this 68 pages will continue to grow, whether or not there is an indictment. For the simple reason that whatever the outcome here, there is no way to make everyone happy. Rob

I wasn't "happy" with the OJ Simpson verdict but neither did I riot in the streets. The OJ crime worked its way through the justice system, and the system worked the way it was supposed to. That it didn't turn out the verdict I thought was correct doesn't mean there was a travesty of justice. Justice was served, so be it.

I was surprised that OJ turned out to be a big thug, I really thought he was smoother than that.

gimmethesimplelife
9-5-14, 1:13am
I wasn't "happy" with the OJ Simpson verdict but neither did I riot in the streets. The OJ crime worked its way through the justice system, and the system worked the way it was supposed to. That it didn't turn out the verdict I thought was correct doesn't mean there was a travesty of justice. Justice was served, so be it.

I was surprised that OJ turned out to be a big thug, I really thought he was smoother than that.I have a question for you, IL.....Given what I have posted here about the police and authority in general, are you surprised that A. I agree with you about OJ (at least as far as not being happy with the verdict) and B. That I sided with the prosecution? True that, I did and I would again if the case were presented the same way today. I'm still amazed that he got off scott free but he screwed up down the road. Didn't learn I guess. Rob

bae
9-5-14, 1:22am
I was OK with the OJ verdict. "Reasonable doubt" is a pretty high standard to meet, and for good reason. The police and the prosecution botched the case, and a likely killer walked.

That's how our legal system works.

gimmethesimplelife
9-5-14, 1:24am
I was OK with the OJ verdict. "Reasonable doubt" is a pretty high standard to meet, and for good reason. The police and the prosecution botched the case, and a likely killer walked.

That's how our legal system works.Bae, I mean no sarcasm here, I'm honestly curious. How do you see that the police and the prosecution botched the case? I found Marcia Clarke's statement about 99.99999 (how many nines were there, I forgot) very damning. Rob

bae
9-5-14, 1:34am
Rob - remember Mark Fuhrman?

Once a jury thinks the police are tampering with/fabricating/misrepresenting/mishandling evidence, "reasonable doubt" is pretty hard to meet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrman

See also:

http://www.policeone.com/crime/articles/7267753-OJ-Simpson-case-taught-police-what-not-to-do-at-a-crime-scene/

Packy
9-5-14, 2:50am
RE: The OJ Case with respect to the racist issues. I think the defense played the race card, and I think the jury was willing to go that route.It was the path of least resistance. Fuhrmann, a tough, seasoned street cop, was the patsy. It gave the panel of ordinary people in an extraordinary situation a way out--since the King debacle and the fallout from it was only a couple years prior, they figured that there would be civil disorder if OJ was convicted, and innocent people senselessly killed on account of it. The public perception of OJ was that of an affable and cool sports celebrity, so that lends doubt in the court of public opinion. LA is a rough place, murders are not uncommon.. Second, ( & I hope this won't annoy the feminists herein), but it could be rationalized by those jurors, being not idealistic, but pragmatic, that Nicole Simpson (partially) contributed to her own death. In view of her intimate knowledge of OJ & knowing full well his psychopathic anger at her, and factor in LA street crime, she truly needed to conduct herself in such a way that she would not be vulnerable. But, she was careless; besides OJ, anyone could've killed her and her friend. So, it wasn't truly a racial discrimination issue, by the police, per se, that got OJ acquitted.

Gregg
9-5-14, 10:01am
A agree that the wholesale devaluation of human life is closer to the root cause than gun ownership. Was Michael Brown's life worth less than the cop's he posed a threat to? Less than mine? Less than an unnamed fetus? Intellectually the answer has to be that they're all equal in value and yet we treat at least half of those examples as a throw away commodity. That's a little too effed up for my liking.

Gregg
9-5-14, 10:07am
I was OK with the OJ verdict. "Reasonable doubt" is a pretty high standard to meet, and for good reason. The police and the prosecution botched the case, and a likely killer walked.

That's how our legal system works.

The prosecution didn't give Judge Ito any choice. Simpson's later convictions on other charges show that justice can be, if nothing else, poetic.

JaneV2.0
9-5-14, 11:47am
There were a lot of factors that doomed the OJ case: Gil Garcetti's unaccountable failure to try the case in Santa Monica, Mark Fuhrman's white lie (who wants to out themselves as a bigot), jury nullification, Francine Florio-Bunten's orchestrated ouster from the jury, Chris Darden's disastrous glove demo, and the too-late discovery of the photo showing Simpson wearing the "ugly-ass Bruno Magli shoes." And I'm sure I missed a few. Although the DNA evidence alone would convince any rational person, it seemed irrelevant under the circumstances.

Xmac
9-5-14, 1:22pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQgNrnWZVSI

CathyA
9-5-14, 1:50pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQgNrnWZVSI
Hmmm........Lots of words, but what the heck is he really saying?

CathyA
9-5-14, 1:52pm
About OJ.........it struck me that what he was sent to jail for, for a long time, wasn't that big a deal. I'm thinking that judges along the way maybe got some back-handed justice? I know that's not what they are supposed to do.......but I'm glad they did it!

Packy
9-5-14, 2:54pm
About OJ.........it struck me that what he was sent to jail for, for a long time, wasn't that big a deal. I'm thinking that judges along the way maybe got some back-handed justice? I know that's not what they are supposed to do.......but I'm glad they did it!I agree that OJ probably, given his notoriety, was dealt with more harshly in the Nevada case. He really should have laid very low---lived out his days quietly on his pension and avoided trouble after he dodged the bullet the first time. But, that's the nature of a person in his condition.

Packy
9-5-14, 4:42pm
I am a very, very accomplished Thread Killer. Once I start commenting on a discussion, it goes down like a lead balloon. I'm the internet discussion forums' answer to Red Adair, the guy who extinguishes oil well fires. But, darned if this thread has been almost as tough to kill as a Mimosa tree! But, I think I just about got 'er done in. Another one bites the dust. And I didn't even have to go with mentioning Hitler and invoking Godwin's law. Thank Me.

CathyA
9-5-14, 5:21pm
Back to the discussion about police and community.....a nearby city (Indianapolis) is doing something neat today. They're having "Unity Day".....and many of the police are in a place in downtown (on their motorcycles, horses, cars), and they have encouraged the community to come down and interact with them. The wife of a slain officer, I think, organized it. Sounds like a great idea. I really applaud them for doing this.
I don't know if this would work in Ferguson right now though.

Packy
9-5-14, 6:21pm
You are right, Cathy--It prolly wouldn't work. I was reading the transcript of an NPR broadcast from several years ago, and it said the most common cause of police officers dying on duty still was car crashes. The particpants in the discussion further narrowed it down to collisions that occur when the police officer is responding to a call or pursuing a suspect. As in, flipping on the cherries, and kicking the ol' Himmy Charger on down(waaaaaawaaaaaahhhhh!), and flying low through intersections in a big big hurry. Or, missing a curve at high speed--things like that. They said Overconfidence, and overzealousness, on the part of law enforcement personnel are the mitigating factors, there. At least that is what NPR said.

iris lilies
9-5-14, 7:59pm
I have a question for you, IL.....Given what I have posted here about the police and authority in general, are you surprised that A. I agree with you about OJ (at least as far as not being happy with the verdict) and B. That I sided with the prosecution? True that, I did and I would again if the case were presented the same way today. I'm still amazed that he got off scott free but he screwed up down the road. Didn't learn I guess. Rob

Hmmm, ok! I guess there are some thing we agree on.

iris lilies
9-5-14, 8:07pm
In answer to the question posed in the title of this thread, St. Louis isn't doing too good today. We have had 6 homicides in 18 hours, some seemingly random. Murder City is earning it's title today.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/six-st-louis-homicides-in-hours-may-all-be-unrelated/article_5f07db73-e1fc-5eef-9bdc-8171dae1358f.html

CathyA
9-5-14, 8:18pm
I think Indianapolis is running neck-n-neck with St. L.

http://wayback.bartlies.com/homicide.php

gimmethesimplelife
9-5-14, 8:18pm
Hmmm, ok! I guess there are some thing we agree on.We have agreed on things in the past, IL.....we have. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-9-14, 8:10pm
Interesting.....Turns out that the police stopped blacks twice as often as whites in Ferguson and two other nearby communities but were less likely to find contraband in the vehicles of African Americans than whites.....Methinks the lawsuits and challenges to the police department and the courts in Ferguson have only begun to start. And if the above is true - it is highly discriminatory and how do we as a society even BEGIN to make restitution to the black community in Ferguson? I don't know that large sums of mere money would even be enough at this point.....Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-9-14, 8:12pm
Rob - remember Mark Fuhrman?

Once a jury thinks the police are tampering with/fabricating/misrepresenting/mishandling evidence, "reasonable doubt" is pretty hard to meet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrman

See also:

http://www.policeone.com/crime/articles/7267753-OJ-Simpson-case-taught-police-what-not-to-do-at-a-crime-scene/You have a point. I'd still side with the prosecution (believe it or not) but I do believe Mark Fuhrman introduced issues to the case that let OJ go free.....and I can see where this botched the prosecution's case, yes. Rob

bae
9-9-14, 9:59pm
I'd still side with the prosecution (believe it or not)

The thing is, you aren't supposed to "side" with the prosecution or the defense. You are supposed to "side" with the law, and the facts as extracted from the evidence presented.

gimmethesimplelife
9-9-14, 10:20pm
The thing is, you aren't supposed to "side" with the prosecution or the defense. You are supposed to "side" with the law, and the facts as extracted from the evidence presented.I don't know if you will understand this, Bae, but I'm going to post this anyway. Though I am law abiding - and I am - I don't really believe in the law (in general) for the most part - there are exceptions to this, though. Too many laws seem designed to protect the rich and seem to work against the poor - I lost my faith in US law somewhere in high school - I think the summer after my Freshman year. I comply with the law as I don't want the hassles that come with being caught doing otherwise.

How this ties into your post? Given that I don't believe much in the law - once again, let me state that A. there are exceptions to this, this is not 100%, and B. I do comply with the law to spare myself potential hassles and grief - I can't really "side" with the law. For me it's all about siding with the defense or the prosecution, and the OJ trial was a real revelation for me as it was one of the rare times I've ever sided with the prosecution and as I already posted, I would side with the prosecution again if the case were presented the same way today. Rob

bae
9-9-14, 10:30pm
So, not a fan of the rule of law? We knew that.

Have you ever served on a criminal jury and been through the whole process? The *text* of the law matters, the jury instructions matter, the standard of proof matters, the *process* matters, etc. etc. - otherwise we don't have civilization.

You want mob/playground justice. Or some sort of demented popularity contest.

I would not live in such a society. Most people, upon any serious reflection, would not want to either.

Here's a book to read:

"A Theory of Justice", John Rawls.

gimmethesimplelife
9-9-14, 10:35pm
So, not a fan of the rule of law? We knew that.

Have you ever served on a criminal jury and been through the whole process? The *text* of the law matters, the jury instructions matter, the standard of proof matters, the *process* matters, etc. etc. - otherwise we don't have civilization.

You want mob/playground justice. Or some sort of demented popularity contest.

I would not live in such a society. Most people, upon any serious reflection, would not want to either.

Here's a book to read:

"A Theory of Justice", John Rawls.It's not that I'm against the rule of law per se, Bae. I don't want to live in anarchy - and I understand that some measure of law in necessary for a society to even hope to run somewhat smoothly. My issue is with laws the work to the benefit of those at the top and to the detriment of those at the bottom, and these days, the middle, too. The America I know is sifting upwards these days, Bae. I never thought I'd see that one happen but it is happening. Expect more people to be disillusioned and adopt thinking more along my lines than yours - it comes with the territory of inequality. But I digress. I'm not against the idea of law per se - I'm against the REALITY of how some laws work. I abide with laws - other than those I do believe in - so that I don't have to deal with consequences for being caught not following such laws, and for no other reason really. Rob

flowerseverywhere
9-9-14, 10:48pm
It's not that I'm against the rule of law per se, Bae. I don't want to live in anarchy - and I understand that some measure of law in necessary for a society to even hope to run somewhat smoothly. My issue is with laws the work to the benefit of those at the top and to the detriment of those at the bottom, and these days, the middle, too. The America I know is sifting upwards these days, Bae. I never thought I'd see that one happen but it is happening. Expect more people to be disillusioned and adopt thinking more along my lines than yours - it comes with the territory of inequality. But I digress. I'm not against the idea of law per se - I'm against the REALITY of how some laws work. I abide with laws - other than those I do believe in - so that I don't have to deal with consequences for being caught not following such laws, and for no other reason really. Rob
I continue to be perplexed why you don't leave the US. Or do something to change what you don"t like in the confines of the system. Because change won't be generated from anonymous Internet forum comments.

gimmethesimplelife
9-9-14, 10:52pm
I continue to be perplexed why you don't leave the US. Or do something to change what you don"t like in the confines of the system. Because change won't be generated from anonymous Internet forum comments.On this one I'm sorry to say I'm confused. Did I not make clear that I am law abiding, following laws I find repulsive and or ridiculous, along with laws I believe in? Really, does it even matter that I don't believe in some laws as long as I am following them?

Given that the thread here has to do with Ferguson, MO, I am going to tie this back in to Ferguson by saying that's one thing I hope that happens as a result of what took place there - some laws getting updated/changed/thrown out, along with some policies getting updated/changed/thrown out. We'll see. Rob

dmc
9-10-14, 7:19am
Interesting.....Turns out that the police stopped blacks twice as often as whites in Ferguson and two other nearby communities but were less likely to find contraband in the vehicles of African Americans than whites.....Methinks the lawsuits and challenges to the police department and the courts in Ferguson have only begun to start. And if the above is true - it is highly discriminatory and how do we as a society even BEGIN to make restitution to the black community in Ferguson? I don't know that large sums of mere money would even be enough at this point.....Rob

If 70% of the town is black, why is this a suprise? Shouldn't 70% of the stops be of black motorist? Are you saying that the police should be profiling the minority white drivers?

Gregg
9-10-14, 9:54am
If 70% of the town is black, why is this a suprise? Shouldn't 70% of the stops be of black motorist?

Is that what's known as an inconvenient truth? Maybe they can use Common Core math to spin it back the other way.

gimmethesimplelife
9-12-14, 12:15am
Here's something interesting. It turns out that CNN is reporting that two white witnesses who say they were fifty feet away from the shooting - construction contractors working in the area - claim that Michael Brown DID have his hands in the air when he was fatally shot and according to them, Michael Brown was shot dead when he presented no threat. OUCH! I don't read the future and I don't know how this is going to play out but at the moment I'm thinking somebody better get a printing press ready for the lawsuit settlements, and I hope nobody settles for the first offer if Ferguson tries settling out of court.....If anyone is interested google two new Ferugson witnesses. Rob

iris lilies
9-12-14, 1:44am
Here's something interesting. It turns out that CNN is reporting that two white witnesses who say they were fifty feet away from the shooting - construction contractors working in the area - claim that Michael Brown DID have his hands in the air when he was fatally shot and according to them, Michael Brown was shot dead when he presented no threat. OUCH! I don't read the future and I don't know how this is going to play out but at the moment I'm thinking somebody better get a printing press ready for the lawsuit settlements, and I hope nobody settles for the first offer if Ferguson tries settling out of court.....If anyone is interested google two new Ferugson witnesses. Rob

"Hands up" doesn't mean "no threat." If a 300 lb giant is charging me, regardless of where his hands are, I would feel threatened. And then if he's already tussled with me, maybe going after my gun, and maybe breaking a bone in my face, I'm going to consider him a thread. That's why there is all the speculation about the shot that killed him and the angle of that shot in his head.

This case will likely turn on the few seconds that Mike Brown turned around and faced the officer and what happened next: moving forward, not moving forward, threatening. That's why there is all the speculation about the angle of the shot in his head that killed him.

We saw Mike Brown threaten a man 1/3 of his size just a few minutes before he was shot. Brown used his giant bulk to threatened and intimidate that guy, it was his MO.

bae
9-12-14, 2:16am
"Hands up" doesn't mean "no threat." If a 300 lb giant is charging me, regardless of where his hands are, I would feel threatened.

Many of the classic disarm moves we teach begin with the hands-up position, and rely on the reactionary gap.

I am only ~270 pounds right now, and a good half century old, but I would be happy to demonstrate when Rob comes out to the Seattle Police training facility. I will bet you that if he waits for me to move towards him, I will win 4 of 5 trials easily without breaking a sweat, from any distance of 21 feet or under.

ApatheticNoMore
9-12-14, 3:19am
Guilty by virtue of being fat (or big as the case may be - I don't know his bodyfat or anything), that's a new one.

iris lilies
9-12-14, 10:02am
Guilty by virtue of being fat (or big as the case may be - I don't know his bodyfat or anything), that's a new one.

Well, ya know APN, it was his capital in the world of thugs and he used it.

gimmethesimplelife
9-12-14, 10:45am
I find it interesting that Bae has posted of reasonable doubt before, earlier in this thread when the OJ trial was discussed. Now I will admit here and I now I don't have the knowledge Bae seems to have of weaponry and the law and such. Probably due to my lack of knowledge I'd be a wanted juror by both the prosecution and the defense EXCEPT for how I feel about the courts and the police. But the lack of knowledge means that I could possibly be swayed by evidence on either side if I didn't have this baked in fear of the police and the courts.

My point here is this - these new witnesses - what they have to say about how the shooting of Michael Brown took place, and furthermore, the fact that they are white and siding against the police - quite damning. Up there with Marcia Clarke and her famous 99.9999999 (I forget how many nines there were) comment. I'd hazard to guess this alone may be enough for an indictment though I don't know what manipulative actions will take place in court during a trial and Darren Wilson does have a sizable pot of money for legal expenses to draw from. I do think however this is going to get interesting and thanks to social media, as I have stated many times earlier, the eyes of the world are on us and I'm so glad for that! Rob

iris lilies
9-12-14, 11:06am
My point here is this - these new witnesses - what they have to say about how the shooting of Michael Brown took place, and furthermore, the fact that they are white and siding against the police - quite damning.

Your conclusions are faulty. Provide a web link to the "police side" that denies Michael Brown had his hands up at any time. You won't be able to find one.

Most speculators assume various witnesses who saw Brown's hands in the air are telling what they saw and his hands were in the air at some point, it's old news. I think that his hands were up at some point and I am white. The symbol of Mike Brown is "Hands up."

I'm surprised that you haven't brought up the fact that Brown's sidekick said Brown was shot in the back and that hasn't been officially disputed. Why don't you work the internet on that one?

gimmethesimplelife
9-12-14, 11:41am
Your conclusions are faulty. Provide a web link to the "police side" that denies Michael Brown had his hands up at any time. You won't be able to find one.

Most speculators assume various witnesses who saw Brown's hands in the air are telling what they saw and his hands were in the air at some point, it's old news. I think that his hands were up at some point and I am white. The symbol of Mike Brown is "Hands up."

I'm surprised that you haven't brought up the fact that Brown's sidekick said Brown was shot in the back and that hasn't been officially disputed. Why don't you work the internet on that one?Whether or not my thinking is faulty to me is completely besides the point. I am talking of perception and how the impact of what these new witnesses have to say is being perceived. As I've stated before, from all the years I have worked in restaurants, I very quickly learned that fact and reality were completely irrelevant in customer service and if I wanted to maintain employment I had to operate in the world of perception and how guests perceived issues - whether or not they were right was completely besides the point. Here we have a legal situation and due to prior issues of US police brutality, I've got news for you - this is all going to boil down to perception for many people. Irregardless of facts - and you can thank former acts of police brutality and intense income equalities in the US for that.

Pretty much for many people the law here? Given that there are those (such as myself) that have no faith or trust in the law in such situations, the law here doesn't really mean all that much. It all boils down to perception and the appearance of heavy handedness and excessive force - AND HELLO? The behavior of the police after the shooting death really showed the Ferguson police as they truly are - which certainly is not helping them. I understand that the DOJ has indeed gone after local police departments aggressively - I'm hoping for a complete and total revamp of the Ferguson PD - the residents of Ferguson are worth this in my book, and after what they have been through, how could anything less suffice? Purely from a standpoint of basic human rights - how could anything less suffice, and/or be trusted going forward? Once again, perceptions and appearances - due to the fact of utter distrust of the law, the law doesn't mean much here. That's probably a hard one for some posters here to wrap their heads around - but once you've lived in the lower social classes in the US and understand how the laws and the courts and the police work against you and not for you - the law doesn't mean much as you learn distrust of it - and what does mean something is appearances and perceptions. Various posters here can go on and on and on about the law but it will not change the basic truth of what I have posted above. Consider it yet another social class difference. And this one money won't fix as this one has been baked in reality for years and years. Throwing money at this one won't fix it I'm afraid. Rob

Alan
9-12-14, 11:45am
Rob, are you implying that any convictions or settlements associated with this case should be based on perceptions rather than established law?

gimmethesimplelife
9-12-14, 11:47am
I do have one positive thing to say about the police, though - this gem coming from Albuquerque, a city in which disadvantaged residents have recently suffered shooting deaths due to police brutality. Turns out that in yesterday's USA Today there was in article regarding the Albuquerque police in which the chief of police of Albuquerque actually admitted that there were some officers in uniform in the Albuquerque PD that had no business being in uniform. I was speechless - such common sense and honesty coming from a police chief! I wonder what took place to yield that common sense - what's going on behind the scenes to force such reality out onto the table? Regardless, the statement was made. Maybe what we need is a nationwide audit of each and every officer - does this individual represent a threat to basic human rights or are they a decent officer worthy of a pension? (and I do believe there are some decent ones worthy of a pension and that this is hard work). But some need to go yesterday. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-12-14, 11:50am
Rob, are you implying that any convictions or settlements associated with this case should be based on perceptions rather than established law?I'm saying that due to perceptions, if the letter of the law is followed and a certain segment of the population is unhappy with how they perceive the outcome, there will be hell to pay. Once again, appearance and perception, with laws that have worked against people and not for them for far too many years not really meaning much. I can see where for some posters here this is not a pleasant thought, but that's the reality of lower income perception. Living in such an area I can really vouch for the truth of what I have just posted. Rob

Came back to add - something else to factor in, too - we are talking here of a (growing, due to automation and offshoring of jobs and corporate greed) segment of the population that really does not have much to loose and does not really have any stake in a community or in life in general. Under such conditions, appearance and perception matter much more than the concept of law, which is distrusted and feared anyway. For such people, the only use the law is good for is the upcoming lawsuit settlements - other than that, there really is no use for the law due to appearances and perception, in this case, baked in for many years.

bae
9-12-14, 12:53pm
I'm saying that due to perceptions, if the letter of the law is followed ...

You mean if the jury doesn't find the evidence presented to meet the standard of "reasonable doubt", and declines to issue a guilty verdict? That letter of the law? Conflating laws concerning homicide with "automation and offshoring of jobs and corporate greed" and "upcoming lawsuit settlements" is amazingly sharp thinking...

Priceless. Might as well just throw the guy to the mob now to be torn apart.

Kill the pig, kill the pig.

http://www.teachwithmovies.org/guides/lord-of-the-flies-files/publicity-photo.jpeg

Alan
9-12-14, 1:02pm
Definitely Lord Of The Flies territory.

gimmethesimplelife
9-12-14, 1:33pm
You mean if the jury doesn't find the evidence presented to meet the standard of "reasonable doubt", and declines to issue a guilty verdict? That letter of the law? Conflating laws concerning homicide with "automation and offshoring of jobs and corporate greed" and "upcoming lawsuit settlements" is amazingly sharp thinking...

Priceless. Might as well just throw the guy to the mob now to be torn apart.

Kill the pig, kill the pig.

http://www.teachwithmovies.org/guides/lord-of-the-flies-files/publicity-photo.jpegRegardless of what you have posted here, Bae, I have posted how a chunk of the country thinks and all the laws in the world are not going to change this. You may very well be insulated from this world, and more power to you, but if you were to visit South Seattle and spend some time there.....the thinking and the reality are completely different there. I can't change your reality Bae, and such is not really my intention, the point here is that your reality is not my reality and vice versa. Also the laws of which you have such high regard mean very little if anything to a subset of the US population - as I've stated, appearances and perception matter a great deal more. It's great that you know so much about the law, and there is no sarcasm implied here - the only problem is that the laws you so believe in often serve to work against and not for all citizens, and due to this, laws tend to be distrusted and feared in places like South Seattle. As they very much should be in my opinion. That said, I follow the laws as I've stated before I don't care to pay any consequences for not doing so, and I don't disagree with the laws 100%, either. But in this case with the shooting of Michael Brown and how the police have behaved since - really, it's no different from the third world. And I resent that as in the third world there is a tendency towards family values and colorful marketplaces and once you get out of the huge cities, a slower pace of life. If America is going to be so obviously third world, is it wrong to demand the good of the third world? He we are just getting the crooked, corrupt bad of the third world without the little bit of good.

To summarize - the laws you hold so highly.....many work against and not for all citizens, and due to this, really, for many they don't mean much. You may brush this aside now and it's great that you are in a position to do so - but as things continue to slide in America, the day may come when this reality can't be brushed aside so easily. Just a friendly heads up based on US debt levels and the shrinkage of the middle class. Rob

bae
9-12-14, 1:47pm
Just a friendly heads up ...

Rob, the day you and your little savages decide that the laws against murder don't work for you, and that you don't like the rule of law, feel free to drop by my community, and I will happily show you how the alternative works...

It won't be a long visit, and the crab harvest will be spectacular the next year I bet.

gimmethesimplelife
9-12-14, 2:22pm
I think maybe I need to get more specific here. When I posted earlier that to a subset of the population the laws really don't mean anything, I am referring to AFTER the shooting death of Michael Brown and I'm referring to potentially subsequent court actions and litigation. I am NOT giving a green light to criminal acts and I'm sorry that I neglected to make this clear. I'm referring more to the fact that Darren Wilson remains on paid vacation while most others would be behind bars - that's hugely inflammatory right there. I am referring to "the rule of law" in any subsequent court proceedings - such laws are distrusted and feared by the segment to the population I am talking about. I am not saying that it is right to strong arm convenience store clerks or to break other laws. I am however saying that the procedings that now may be taking place - the laws surrounding these proceedings? Distrusted and feared by this segment of the population, and rightly so in my book. But to go and commit murder - I never meant to imply that such was acceptable or that I was condoning such. I'm also saying that due to baked in fear and distrust of the courts and police (rightly so to have such fear) there can be no faith or trust in the law for this segment of the population - and having seen officers walk scott free in other instances for what has been perceived to have been police brutality - instant and permanent fear of the law, the police, and the courts. Irrevocably so. I can totally understand this where it seems that others here can't grasp it. I share the same fear, though probably not to the same level of intensity. After having witnessed police brutality myself, I will never again trust American police - though I will say the courts were a good vehicle in this case to acquire a retaliatory settlement, so the courts are not completely without their use.

Once again, I am not condoning criminal acts by anyone, and if anyone commits criminal acts, I am not against their being prosecuted, regardless of race - with the provision that sentencing for such acts is fairly equal for all races, which is not always the case in America, yet another reason I don't trust the police or the courts. But I digress, I am not for anyone committing criminal acts. I hope this is clear. Rob

bae
9-12-14, 2:32pm
I'm referring more to the fact that Darren Wilson remains on paid vacation while most others would be behind bars - that's hugely inflammatory right there.


Except that's not how the world works. I am familiar with the circumstances of *hundreds* of defensive shooting cases, and your assertion is simply incorrect.

You don't put someone "behind bars" until they are convicted, *unless* they are a flight risk or a danger to the community. You cannot take a man's liberty without due process. And you seem to object to due process in a rush to punish the officer, before he has even been charged, much less tried and convicted. There is plenty of time to punish him after due process has run its course.


I am however saying that the procedings that now may be taking place - the laws surrounding these proceedings?


Yet you freely admit ignorance of what the proceedings are, and what the law says.

You are not reasoning, you are emoting.

Kill the pig.

gimmethesimplelife
9-12-14, 2:35pm
Except that's not how the world works. I am familiar with the circumstances of *hundreds* of defensive shooting cases, and your assertion is simply incorrect.

You don't put someone "behind bars" until they are convicted, *unless* they are a flight risk or a danger to the community. You cannot take a man's liberty without due process. And you seem to object to due process in a rush to punish the officer, before he has even been charged, much less tried and convicted. There is plenty of time to punish him after due process has run its course.



Yet you freely admit ignorance of what the proceedings are, and what the law says.

You are not reasoning, you are emoting.

Kill the pig.Bae, I'll post this one last time and then I'll move on. The laws surrounding the proceedings potentially coming up? They are feared, disrespected, and distrusted by this segment of the population. That's my point and say what you will about the law - and I'd trust that you have real knowledge of the law - what I just posted is a fact and no discussion of the law will make this go away. I guess it's the elephant in the room that refuses to go away. And I doubt it ever will in my lifetime. Rob

Alan
9-12-14, 3:01pm
Bae, I'll post this one last time and then I'll move on. The laws surrounding the proceedings potentially coming up? They are feared, disrespected, and distrusted by this segment of the population. That's my point and say what you will about the law - and I'd trust that you have real knowledge of the law - what I just posted is a fact and no discussion of the law will make this go away. I guess it's the elephant in the room that refuses to go away. And I doubt it ever will in my lifetime. RobRob the problem is, you're doing away with the entire concept of "innocent until proven guilty". You're relying on perceptions and misconceptions fueled by social media and incorrect assumptions about how the law works. You're not living within a third world justice system, your fostering it.

jp1
9-13-14, 12:29am
I often disagree with Alan and bae on various topics, but about 20 pages ago I posted an explanation of why Darren Wilson isn't on "paid vacation" that Alan just reiterated.

I'll repeat myself. Darren Wilson's job requires that he carry a gun and potentially use it. Let me reiterate. HE CARRIES A GUN AND IS EXPECTED TO USE IT AS PART OF HIS JOB IF THAT'S THE ONLY WAY HE CAN PROTECT HIMSELF OR CIVILIANS THAT ARE AT RISK.

In the event that he uses it there is a protocol for reviewing the situation to determine whether the use of it was necessary. If it was his life goes on. If not he faces the justice system. Until it's determined that he used the gun wrongly there's no logical reason for him to not continue to earn his salary. WIthout that safety net in place only the absolutely most desperate of people would be willing to become cops. After all, who would want to become a cop if they were to risk becoming unemployed and homeless any time they used their gun, regardless of whether it was warranted. That's why he's on paid leave. Until the investigation determines what happened there's no other logical thing to do with him.

flowerseverywhere
9-13-14, 7:59am
Jp1, great post

gimme, if you are still reading go to this page

http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2014?ref=sidebar

it lists the officer deaths in the line of duty in 2014 and read the stories. Then read previous years stories. Most of us do not go to work everyday and risk being killed. No matter how much it sucks to be a waiter the risk of being killed or even assaulted is very low. And if you were in danger you would call 911 for police assistance, wouldn't you? And police would show up to help you, and put themselves in danger to help you.

Many K9 deaths are listed too

The Ferguson story is very sad indeed as in any loss of life.

Gregg
9-13-14, 10:13am
I often disagree with Alan and bae on various topics, but about 20 pages ago I posted an explanation of why Darren Wilson isn't on "paid vacation" that Alan just reiterated.

I'll repeat myself. Darren Wilson's job requires that he carry a gun and potentially use it. Let me reiterate. HE CARRIES A GUN AND IS EXPECTED TO USE IT AS PART OF HIS JOB IF THAT'S THE ONLY WAY HE CAN PROTECT HIMSELF OR CIVILIANS THAT ARE AT RISK.

In the event that he uses it there is a protocol for reviewing the situation to determine whether the use of it was necessary. If it was his life goes on. If not he faces the justice system. Until it's determined that he used the gun wrongly there's no logical reason for him to not continue to earn his salary. WIthout that safety net in place only the absolutely most desperate of people would be willing to become cops. After all, who would want to become a cop if they were to risk becoming unemployed and homeless any time they used their gun, regardless of whether it was warranted. That's why he's on paid leave. Until the investigation determines what happened there's no other logical thing to do with him.

+1

Tradd
9-13-14, 10:20am
Good post, jp1.

gimmethesimplelife
9-13-14, 10:49am
Rob the problem is, you're doing away with the entire concept of "innocent until proven guilty". You're relying on perceptions and misconceptions fueled by social media and incorrect assumptions about how the law works. You're not living within a third world justice system, your fostering it.I think I am going to take a break from this thread for awhile after I post this but I do want to respond to what Alan has posted here. Something I guess I have neglected to make clear is that since I witnessed my Guatemalan neighbors being thrown down and assaulted viciously by the Phoenix police for no other reason than for flying a Guatemalan flag on their property - from this point forward - all police to me are automatically guilty until proven innocent, no exceptions. I'm sorry that other posters here have not witnessed the basic lack of human rights in America that I have and the arrogance and above the law mentality of the police that I have - it's really sad, as if more people had, there would possibly be more understanding of where I am coming from. Whatever. In my book everyone gets to believe as they wish regardless. For me, police will ALWAYS be guilty until proven innocent and the courts are mostly only good for retaliatory lawsuits - this is what America has taught me and I don't do denial about basic lower income life lessons. Should I be successful in creating an online small business, should I raise myself up and be able to afford to move on from where I live - this would change nothing. The basic knowledge and fear of how the police and courts work against me and not for me as a lower income individual will never leave me - perhaps someday I can forgive (though I rather doubt it) but I will never forget this life lesson. And with that I am ducking out of this thread for awhile. It seems there is not a lot going on in Ferguson at the moment anyway and it will be until October until we hear if there is an indictment or not - and the lawsuits against the police department will take more time to progress so there probably won't be much thread relevant info to discuss for awhile anyway. I trust I've made my points clear even if the majority here don't understand my points.....time to take a break for a bit. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-13-14, 10:55am
I think I am going to take a break from this thread for awhile after I post this but I do want to respond to what Alan has posted here. Something I guess I have neglected to make clear is that since I witnessed my Guatemalan neighbors being thrown down and assaulted viciously by the Phoenix police for no other reason than for flying a Guatemalan flag on their property - from this point forward - all police to me are automatically guilty until proven innocent, no exceptions. I'm sorry that other posters here have not witnessed the basic lack of human rights in America that I have and the arrogance and above the law mentality of the police that I have - it's really sad, as if more people had, there would possibly be more understanding of where I am coming from. Whatever. In my book everyone gets to believe as they wish regardless. For me, police will ALWAYS be guilty until proven innocent and the courts are mostly only good for retaliatory lawsuits - this is what America has taught me and I don't do denial about basic lower income life lessons. Should I be successful in creating an online small business, should I raise myself up and be able to afford to move on from where I live - this would change nothing. The basic knowledge and fear of how the police and courts work against me and not for me as a lower income individual will never leave me - perhaps someday I can forgive (though I rather doubt it) but I will never forget this life lesson. And with that I am ducking out of this thread for awhile. It seems there is not a lot going on in Ferguson at the moment anyway and it will be until October until we hear if there is an indictment or not - and the lawsuits against the police department will take more time to progress so there probably won't be much thread relevant info to discuss for awhile anyway. I trust I've made my points clear even if the majority here don't understand my points.....time to take a break for a bit. Rob

And I'll quickly respond to something Flowerseverywhere said - no, I wouldn't call the police. I can't see any reason I'd ever call the police unless I needed their paperwork to file an insurance claim. I have too much terror of the police to ever voluntarily ask them to enter my life for any kind of interaction. I've posted this before - best to have nothing at all to do with them PERIOD. I don't even care to have a positive interaction with them. I'm sure there are some good ones left but the ones that are essentially government thugs above the law and with pension, too - they can really mess up an innocent person's life and you can't know what type of officer you are going to get if you voluntarily allow the police to enter your life. Best to avoid them as much as possible and give them no chances. If Ferguson doesn't teach you this, google what has been going on in Albuquerque to learn basic terror of American police if you have an open mind to learning some home truths of American police and what they are capable of. Rob

bae
9-15-14, 3:08am
Rob's community continues to meet expectations.


http://www.examiner.com/article/new-black-panther-leader-officer-darren-wilson-wanted-dead-or-alive

flowerseverywhere
9-15-14, 5:36am
Fascinating article bae.

Gimme, what would you do if a group of young men were gang raping a young girl. Or an elderly man was being assaulted? Or a store owner was being beaten and robbed? All things that happen all around the world.

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-14, 11:11am
Fascinating article bae.

Gimme, what would you do if a group of young men were gang raping a young girl. Or an elderly man was being assaulted? Or a store owner was being beaten and robbed? All things that happen all around the world.Flowerseverywhere, you bring up an interesting point and yet another reason I have find living in the United States so difficult. Yes these things do happen in my world and I would be at a loss as to how to handle them to be quite honest with you. As I have posted numerous times and no one seems to want to process or deal with, I have witnessed my next door neighbors being brutally and viciously assaulted by the Phoenix police for doing nothing other than flying a Guatemalan flag on their property (though they were able to retaliate via the courts for a nice settlement, I will give you that). After having seen that I will never be able to trust American police again, no exceptions.

Put yourself in my shoes - please have that respect and put yourself in my shoes. Being lower income and having witnessed such, would you be running to the phone to call the police or would you think a good twenty to fifty times before taking the risk of voluntarily being vulnerable to a similar situation? The nightmare in America is that if you are lower income, you don't know what will happen when the cops arrive. So you just don't call as it is too much risk. And yes, this is going on all around America, and yes, America is that awful for some of it's citizens. Please rest assured this type of thinking/living is not at all limited to just myself. I'd be grateful for this, too - this type of thinking coupled with social media after Ferguson is hope for change in America's police going forward - perhaps. If not change, at least awareness and fear of the police spreading upwards in America. And I do believe more people going forward will retaliate - as they very well should - with more media attention being paid going forward - against the police in the courts nationwide for large settlements. This can only be a good thing and with the economy so horrible, successful settlements will only prompt more people to sue the police for their misconduct going forward. This can only be a good thing. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-14, 11:15am
Rob's community continues to meet expectations.


http://www.examiner.com/article/new-black-panther-leader-officer-darren-wilson-wanted-dead-or-aliveBae, I read your article and yes I do find this excessive. Now.....will you have the same respect for me and google yourself up an article of the recent widespread police brutality in Albuquerque, NM, which is so bad and so well known now that the Albuquerque Police Chief has admitted to the media that some Albuquerque police officers should not be in uniform? Will you have this respect, can this be a two way street, or no? Your choice. Rob

ApatheticNoMore
9-15-14, 11:26am
There's too many stories of police brutality for it to all be made up (of course they often don't keep much in the way of actual data), and I don't dismiss them just because they come from or happen to minorities and other disadvantaged people. The point of comparison is rates of death by police in other countries (though the lack of data won't help with that), there are too many here. In any given situation I'd weigh the risk of police causing harm versus the risk of not calling the police causing harm. With assault or something the risk of not calling is likely greater. However many people call police in mere cases of a family member acting funny (drug use/mental illness) and there the balance may tilt the other way (greater risk of harm from getting the police involved).

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-14, 12:03pm
There's too many stories of police brutality for it to all be made up (of course they often don't keep much in the way of actual data), and I don't dismiss them just because they come from or happen to minorities and other disadvantaged people. The point of comparison is rates of death by police in other countries (though the lack of data won't help with that), there are too many here. In any given situation I'd weigh the risk of police causing harm versus the risk of not calling the police causing harm. With assault or something the risk of not calling is likely greater. However many people call police in mere cases of a family member acting funny (drug use/mental illness) and there the balance may tilt the other way (greater risk of harm from getting the police involved).Thank You, APN, for understanding this.....this gives me some hope. Rob

Tradd
9-15-14, 1:37pm
So, Rob, you've made it very clear that your fear and utter contempt of the police are such that you will likely not call.them for anything. I hope you never see a child being abducted or something of similar horrible magnitude. YOUR fear/contempt of cops is such that it sounds to.me like you would just turn a blind eye and leave someone in terrible trouble so YOU don't have to deal with the cops at all.

You talk about wanting to help others in your community, but it.sounds like your.attitude would likely have the opposite effect. Would you really like to.tell the family members of a victim of a horrible.crime that you could have called but didn't because you didn't want to.invite the man into your life?

I'm going to say this once:

Dude, man up! Quit playing the victim. Or is that simply a.foreign concept to you? Do you actually do things to help.in your community or are you all talk?

bae
9-15-14, 1:44pm
Rob,

I haven't seen anyone in this thread claim that police brutality and abuse of power don't exist in this country.

I *have* seen people ask that we follow due process, rule of law, and don't rush to mob justice.

The only person I have seen arguing the position of "all cops are bad, fear them, because I saw a bad thing once" is you.

I've seen people do horrible horrible things. I don't judge and condemn all other people who share characteristics with them. That's prejudice. I saw a black man beat and rob someone once, do I as a result fear all black men? If I did, what would that make me?

I think you are suffering from some sort of PTSD from the horror of the incident you witnessed, and need to talk to someone about it, instead of hiding under a rock gleefully looking forward to lawsuits and bloody uprisings.

Gregg
9-15-14, 2:26pm
I occasionally try to help out a group that develops, or more appropriately raises the visibility of safe havens. A large number of the folks who do more there than I do are police officers. That is part of my experience with cops. Another part is from when I got pulled over for speeding. The cop was polite, respectful, professional. I can't say I was happy about the incident, but have no reason to malign the force based on his behavior. Is there any thing I have seen that would convince me that a vast majority of cops are behaving in a manner that is diametrically opposed to my experience? Nope. A few are. Those few need to be weeded out in the same legal and civilized fashion that poor teachers or doctors are. If we resort to vigilante justice and kangaroo courts we're no better than those we condemn.

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-14, 8:26pm
So, Rob, you've made it very clear that your fear and utter contempt of the police are such that you will likely not call.them for anything. I hope you never see a child being abducted or something of similar horrible magnitude. YOUR fear/contempt of cops is such that it sounds to.me like you would just turn a blind eye and leave someone in terrible trouble so YOU don't have to deal with the cops at all.

You talk about wanting to help others in your community, but it.sounds like your.attitude would likely have the opposite effect. Would you really like to.tell the family members of a victim of a horrible.crime that you could have called but didn't because you didn't want to.invite the man into your life?

I'm going to say this once:

Dude, man up! Quit playing the victim. Or is that simply a.foreign concept to you? Do you actually do things to help.in your community or are you all talk?I have manned up. I have made the only logical choice based on what I have seen and experienced. Had you witnessed the police brutality incident I had, might your views on the police be just a tad different? Perhaps? I've manned up in the sense that I don't trust them and don't want anything to do with them until such a date as they don't get a free pass to behave as if above the law until taken down via litigation. Until such a date that I don't have to live in fear of being assaulted by the police for no legal reason, I have manned up by making the only sane and logical choice I certainly don't mind sharing my views with others lol - as you can see over this 70 plus pages.

Here and now I will grant that not all cops are bad. I'm sure there are decent ones, too - folks I'm not ashamed of America for that they get a pension when most are not worth this any more - as it is hard work, I won't deny that. Only problem is, in lower income neighborhoods - please note this as no one seems to want to wrap their heads around this - you really are rolling the dice as to what kind of cop you get and if they are going to escalate/attack/brutally and illegally assault you in some way. If I want to roll the dice, I'll man up by rolling the dice in Vegas or at one of the casinos scattered around the edges of Phoenix - I won't roll the dice taking the risk of illegal police misconduct that could see me dead or seriously injured at a local hospital for no legal reason. In short, as a man, I have made the only choice. There is no victim playing here - I am making a conscious effort NOT TO BE A VICTIM. I also man up by always carrying a smartphone with me at all times with video and audio capabilities - you never know when it might come in useful against the police, or even to help someone else attacked by the police in their retaliatory lawsuit.

I will say however I'm glad I'm the only one here who has experienced such evil.....Experience this and I bet you'll never see the police the same way again. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-14, 8:37pm
Rob,

I haven't seen anyone in this thread claim that police brutality and abuse of power don't exist in this country.

I *have* seen people ask that we follow due process, rule of law, and don't rush to mob justice.

The only person I have seen arguing the position of "all cops are bad, fear them, because I saw a bad thing once" is you.

I've seen people do horrible horrible things. I don't judge and condemn all other people who share characteristics with them. That's prejudice. I saw a black man beat and rob someone once, do I as a result fear all black men? If I did, what would that make me?

I think you are suffering from some sort of PTSD from the horror of the incident you witnessed, and need to talk to someone about it, instead of hiding under a rock gleefully looking forward to lawsuits and bloody uprisings.Bae, I say this with no sarcasm. You surprise me here, but in a very good way. In this 70 plus pages this is the first time I have noted considering that the police might engage in misconduct. Thank You, I really appreciate the mention of the possibility. I can't speak for you as I don't know you, ok? I'm guessing (? and I could be wrong here?) as I posted in response to Tradd - had you witnessed what I have, your views on the police might just be a tad different? And every brutality incident that came along after that might only serve to solidify your views?

Here's a big point I am trying to make here. My opinions here really are not all that relevant - what DOES matter is there is a sizable subset of the US population that feels and thinks the same way as I do. I live in a large inner city neighborhood of such people - no one here trusts the police or wants anything at all to do with them - we don't even want them speaking at our neighborhood meetings and have turned down their offers of speaking at such, so as not to lose participants and so as to have more folks on the Block Watch. And yes I do see the irony in what I just typed but it's true nonetheless. When a day comes that I can walk home from the bus stop down the street, about 1/2 mile away from where I live, at 10 PM on a Wednesday night after having stayed to close at the Phoenix Art Museum (they are open late every Wednesday) without living in fear of being attacked, assaulted, or hassled in some way illegally by the police, then I will post differently. To date, that day has not yet arrived and I hand out no trust or free passes to anyone in a police uniform. They have not earned my trust - in fact, they have earned my fear and distrust. Why it should be surprising that I'd post as I do given the givens, I don't understand but as they say in Spanish - Asi es la vida. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-14, 8:45pm
I occasionally try to help out a group that develops, or more appropriately raises the visibility of safe havens. A large number of the folks who do more there than I do are police officers. That is part of my experience with cops. Another part is from when I got pulled over for speeding. The cop was polite, respectful, professional. I can't say I was happy about the incident, but have no reason to malign the force based on his behavior. Is there any thing I have seen that would convince me that a vast majority of cops are behaving in a manner that is diametrically opposed to my experience? Nope. A few are. Those few need to be weeded out in the same legal and civilized fashion that poor teachers or doctors are. If we resort to vigilante justice and kangaroo courts we're no better than those we condemn.Part of my stance may be due in part to the fact that I live in the inner city very close in to downtown - it seems to me the tendency here is to use excessive force and ask questions later as the belief seems to be that the cops are safe in doing so as people here can't afford to litigate. It warms my heart that my Guatemalan neighbors were able to successfully retaliate in court - they are considered heroes in the neighborhood and are very much looked up to for this. I feel fortunate living next door to them, I really do. In English you'd say my kind of people. But I digress. I do believe in "better" areas and in small towns you tend to get a different kind of cop as there would be more likely consequences for misbehavior and certainly more risk of litigation/negative publicity/job and pension loss. This is why I feel so much joy when people sue the police in legit cases of brutality/misconduct/excessive force - it's the people's way of fighting back and in a way that really does hurt. Rob

flowerseverywhere
9-15-14, 10:18pm
Rob, I am really sorry I asked my question. I am mixed race and was raised in foster care. I have seen my share of bad people. I know that those entrusted to protect the innocent can run amok. I do not think anyone has disagreed that authority figures can abuse their office. Police brutality, politicians who put their own financial interests above their constituents, sex abuse by priests...only a sampling of those who have power who abuse it. But they are the ones we hear about. Not the majority who are good people who are only trying to raise a family, contribute to their community and make the world a better place.
I owe my life to a neighbor who had the courage to call the police who removed us from a house where we surely could have been killed. This was back in the days when parents were allowed to "discipline" their kids. I would never turn my back on someone who was being robbed or raped to protect myself. My life experience has made me fearless.

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-14, 11:07pm
Rob, I am really sorry I asked my question. I am mixed race and was raised in foster care. I have seen my share of bad people. I know that those entrusted to protect the innocent can run amok. I do not think anyone has disagreed that authority figures can abuse their office. Police brutality, politicians who put their own financial interests above their constituents, sex abuse by priests...only a sampling of those who have power who abuse it. But they are the ones we hear about. Not the majority who are good people who are only trying to raise a family, contribute to their community and make the world a better place.
I owe my life to a neighbor who had the courage to call the police who removed us from a house where we surely could have been killed. This was back in the days when parents were allowed to "discipline" their kids. I would never turn my back on someone who was being robbed or raped to protect myself. My life experience has made me fearless.You say you are sorry you asked your question. Would you be surprised if I said I am saddened by this? I am. I am saddened by this and I am also saddened by the fact that society has slid to the point where I have made the decisions I have (based on my experiences) as a way to lessen the chances of becoming a victim. That's really sad, too. Both examples here are sad and I wish I could just wave a magic wand and make it all go away. I would if I could. I don't have any answers other than awareness and distrust and standing up against the police when they cross the line - not answers that you wanted to hear I wager and not answers that are going to fix the underlying problem, either. I am aware of that. I am of the opinion that it is unlikely the underlying problems with the police will be fixed any time soon if ever at all - at least as far as their relations with disadvantage segments of society go - it is pathetic to live in such an overall wealthy country and be confronted with these issues and these decisions, it really is.

BTW, I admire your fearlessness. I really do. I take my hat (and I often do wear a hat) off to you. My take however is that the police are supposed ( in theory, anyway) to protect and serve, not terrorize and cause fear. Faced with the latter, I don't know how anyone could question my thought process and my take on this issue. But still - more power to you for being fearless - I'm afraid I'm not equal to this. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-25-14, 12:25pm
Well, here's some good news. In an unrelated case, in California, an African American woman who was punched repeatedly by an officer settled for 1.5 million dollars and the officer's agreement to resign. After reading of this case on yahoo.com/news today, I think lady involved settled too cheaply - I would have gunned for 50 million personally, and not for the money but to inspire others to do the same to do lasting economic damage - but at least she got publicity, she did get a large settlement, and more people know they can retaliate against the police with possible large paydays. This truly warms my heart. Rob

bae
9-25-14, 12:54pm
... to do lasting economic damage -... This truly warms my heart. Rob

Lasting economic damage....

Did you take Econ 101? Who pays that settlement? Where do they ultimately get that money from?

What's the nexus between the $50 million figure you pulled out of your...hat, and direct influence over the behavior of an individual officer?

I'd rather see the officer thrown into prison for assault/battery if that's what he indeed did, pour encourager les autres.