View Full Version : Trumps: White Angry Middleclass
Williamsmith
1-16-16, 2:34am
Im your average white middleclass male. I make up well over half of the country especially if you include my influence over family and friends. And I am angry.
I am embarrassed that our country has lost its standing amongst other powerful nations.
I am sick of special interests getting special treatment.
I consider urban America to be a war zone and no one is doing anything about it.
I hate the media for constantly attacking our law enforcement and undermining authority in the public square.
I am sick that my kids are going to be worse off than I was at their age.
I think we have gone in the wrong direction for so many years that the establishment needs a shock and drastic measures are called for.
I am willing to create chaos so as to restore order and reclaim my place in this country.
I am tired of checking my words before I speak them just because I may offend someone who needs to just get on with their lives.
I am ready for real change and I'm not going to be like the poor and expect it or like the very rich and purchase it.......no I am going to demand it and make it so.
I believe our condition calls for drastic measures and I am tired of sitting on the sidelines.
I am angry that I have to work to let people come here and enjoy all the benefits,for free.
So I am backing a man who isn't afraid to offend some and who will really put the people who caused this on notice.
I am angry and my guy will make you feel uncomfortable.
So what are you going to do about it?
frugal-one
1-16-16, 4:43am
"I am willing to create chaos so as to restore order and reclaim my place in this country."
What, exactly, does this mean?
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"I am ready for real change and I'm not going to be like the poor and expect it or like the very rich and purchase it.......no I am going to demand it and make it so."
Isn't Trump the really rich?
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Lots of bravado talk above but no indication of how to remedy any of it.
Williamsmith
1-16-16, 6:41am
Yes it is troubling isn't it.
Chicken lady
1-16-16, 8:42am
I am sick that my kids are going to be worse off than I was at their age.
Did you teach them to work? Save? Live within their means? Use birth control? Make healthy choices? Build community?
dh is almost 50. Our kids are better off than we were. Their friends who are struggling have attended schools they couldn't afford, failed to finish their degrees, spent money they didn't have, partied too much, refused to take jobs that are "beneath them", produced children unintentionally, and/or expected society to take care of them instead of the other way around.
I am willing to create chaos so as to restore order and reclaim my place in this country.
your place in this country? As a middle class white woman, let me just say, "you don't get to be an ass and keep the whole cake anymore. I'm deeply sorry you were led to expect that."
I am tired of checking my words before I speak them just because I may offend someone who needs to just get on with their lives.
so don't. I'd prefer that you say exactly what you think. It's easier to choose how to interact (or not) with people when they are honest about who they are.
I am ready for real change and I'm not going to be like the poor and expect it or like the very rich and purchase it.......no I am going to demand it and make it so.
I believe our condition calls for drastic measures and I am tired of sitting on the sidelines.
Awesome! Go get your hands dirty! Where will you start? The schools? Those urban war zones? One of those worse off kids?
Yesterday my dad (who at 71 is past middle age I guess) spent the day with a kid who has a drug record, an out of wedlock child, a high school degree, and after a lot of conversations with my dad, a crappy job on a fishing boat. They discussed budgeting, parenting, and what one has to do to build a relationship with ones kid and work ones way off the deck of a fishing boat. The sad reality being this does not involve video games or beer - (unless possibly the beer is being nursed along while building community with the other guys on the fishing boat)
I am angry that I have to work to let people come here and enjoy all the benefits,for free.
Yeah, look around your area and see what you get "for free". try living like that for a while. Be sure to reject any additional benefits that come your way for being a white male native English speaker so you don't muddy the experience.
I am angry and my guy will make you feel uncomfortable.
So what are you going to do about it?
vote against him and raise my son to not become you. Continue working to help the students in my classroom not become you or the kid on the boat. Newsflash: uncomfortable is my default setting in this society you and yours built. - glad you could drop by.
freshstart
1-16-16, 10:20am
Darn, I had a whole thing written out but it disappeared. I am 100% with Chickenlady.
I have yet to meet an immigrant my age, legal or not, who is not working his ass off in menial jobs no one else wants to make a better life for his kids, working harder than most of us have ever had to and ask him what he got for free. Then I watched their wives caring for an elderly parent in a way that was almost sacred. (you know what group provides the least hands on care to dying parents? White men.)
SNAP has a 3% fraud rate, can you beat that or rather, would you be planning to take that away as a freeloader's benefit? It is hard to keep SNAP, look it up.
I am tired of all the commentary about single black moms mooching off the system, going so far as to say they should have to have an IUD or implant to prevent more welfare babies. The system failed, Welfare to Work does not work when the promised reasonably priced childcare is nowhere to be found. It is hard to keep welfare benefits for long periods of time, look it up. If you are against WIC, you are whacked.
I am tired of the disabled facing a backlog so long that it takes two years to get benefits. I have a crappy LTD policy
so I have some (minimal considering I worked for the company 23 yrs) income, most people don't. And we paid for SSDI benefits in all the years we were working. So in those two yrs, people who were hard workers and proud of it, are reduced to relying on State services and that does not feel good.
saying the poor (and you do not know why they are poor, they could be like me and be disabled) just expect a handout is truly a disgusting thing to say and I am actually surprised, Williamsmith, that you hit that low. I'm pretty sure we both worked in decimated urban areas and yet we are diametrically opposed on the issues that face that population. I get the feeling you and Trump want to excise the tumor of poverty and close your eyes to the fact it exists.
I am tired of the elderly having to decide between prescription meds or food.
I am tired of Ferguson, at al while Bundy and his crew have not been harmed in any way as they stand there with their guns. If those guns were held by those in Ferguson can you even imagine the bloodshed? White men protesting freely, that is the mark of the privileged right there. One white man arrested, woohoo! 61 in Ferguson.
I am sick of lack of gun control and the crazy 2nd amendment folks who refuse reasonable compromises (Obama is running out of time to come steal your weapons). 32k senseless gun deaths yearly. I do not want to read anymore about the "responsible" gun owner whose child "accidentally" shot his toddler. You left it loaded and accessible, you are "responsible" for the "accident" and should be arrested. You were a cop, I would assume you would be sick of this shit, too. But probably not because you are a white man with inalienable rights.
I am tired, this is enough but this is spot on: As a middle class white woman, let me just say, "you don't get to be an ass and keep the whole cake anymore. I'm deeply sorry you were led to expect that." We are a majority now by 7 million and we intend to get our full share of the cake. And luckily, we women know how to manage that cake way better than the average white male.
so what will I do? Make sure my vote cancels out your crazy town vote. I have a feeling you are going to say you never intended to vote Trump, you just wanted that sparring match. If you truly believe the above, then honestly, I feel sorry for you.
The issue I have about this "make America great again" thing is when are they talking about? I don't think there's any point in my life where the US hasn't had major problems. Or in the history books.
I think it mainly speaks to this mythical spot in people's minds that never really was.
freshstart
1-16-16, 10:27am
Trumps who is anti-corporate welfare:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428575/donald-trump-corporate-welfare
corporations ok, even forcing someone out of their home so more can be built, that's a-ok. But God forbid we hand the poor a PB and J.
early morning
1-16-16, 10:39am
Agree with Frugalone and Chickenlady. Sick of those who can't see how good they have it ranting about how "those lazy shiftless OTHERS" are going to take it all away... and then this:
I am tired of checking my words before I speak them just because I may offend someone who needs to just get on with their lives.
I'm tired of people saying bullsh*t and being upset when they're called on it. If you don't care if you offend someone else, don't get your knickers in a twist if they ARE offended. YOU don't get to decide what should upset someone else. If you don't want to hear that they are offended, then shut the effing crap up to start with! Why do people think they should have the right to say any vile thing that drops out of their head, and everyone else should just smile and nod?????
catherine
1-16-16, 10:48am
My DH talks like you, Williamsmith. He was raised in your typical Leave It to Beaver type 50s world, and he is VERY nostalgic. He feels we should rewind the clock to when things were simple.
They were simple times for the average white middle class male. But DH forgets that his dad died at 45, and same way my dad died at 43, and his mom and my mom had no financial recourse. His mom worked as a clerk in Macy's as the best job she could get and invited her parents to move in with her. The best my mother could do was 2.00 an hour as a bookkeeper. She remarried in order to keep her financial standing.
And ask the blacks if life was simple and better back then.
I'm not angry, but I'm sad when I see so many people with their ladders up the wrong wall, to use a Stephen Covey analogy. We are the foxes losing the grapes in our mouths for an illusory and elusive image of "success" and "wealth." I do believe that the chaos you speak of will eventually come, but restoration of order will hopefully not come with more of the same, but instead we will have learned to have more, not less, respect for people no matter what the color or number of dollars in their pocket, and we will have learned to have more respect for the natural order of things and the blessings God has given us for free.
rodeosweetheart
1-16-16, 10:56am
Williamsmith, I thought you were doing a little performance art here and posing as the prototypical angry white male Trump supporter. I did not think you actually thought these things.
Was I incorrect? Do you support Donald Trump now?
Well, I like a few of the things that trump says. We DO have problems in this country that aren't being addressed. BUT.............he's gone off the deep end. He's turned to insults/hate and got the crowds all worked up. If he had gone in a different direction with some of his concerns, I may have been a little interested.
I do the Thursday crossword in the local paper each week. Right next to it is a "Let it out" column, where people just say what they feel. I especially liked one comment that said "I'm beginning to think that Donald Trump is really a Democrat staging an elaborate ruse to discredit the GOP by acting like a complete moron." I've wondered the same thing.
But........there are so many issues here. We have a country that has encouraged all different groups/cultures that may not get along, but still have the same feelings that they are entitled to always get what they want. We have an economic system that encourages businesses to take their business over-seas, leaving so many here without jobs. We have a present government that is liberal and a congress that is conservative. We have local, state and federal government that throws our hard-earned money away on the stupidest things. We have a media that we can't trust. We have people telling us everyday what we need to buy/consume in order to have fulfilling lives. Its very hard to find truth and honesty any more. And yes, political correctness, I feel, can cover up a lot of problems that just keep surfacing up anyway, and are never dealt with.
And I have to admit that most of the people on this forum seem to be VERY liberal. I have concerns about some things, but easily get put down or discounted because I don't always have a very liberal stance on things.
Also, each of our viewpoints can vary, depending on our life experiences and the situations around us (like unemployment, crime, seemingly no voice in what happens around us, ignorance, getting nothing for our taxes, etc., etc.)
Back to Trump and the people he attracts..........I'm sure if he becomes president (oh no!!), he will screw those folks over within minutes (besides getting us into WWlll).
There is a lot for us to be grateful for in this country. We don't have a clue what its like to be in some other less-fortunate countries. But.........there are still lots of things that could be better. I don't want to feel like I can't address those those things without people telling me to move somewhere else..........or that I'm unpatriotic..........or a huge obtuse picture will appear on the screen for me to see.
I'm neither all democrat nor all republican. Seems like the more one side swings further left, the other side swings further right, and makes it impossible to ever come together.
I am not a Trump supporter, but I do agree with some of the issues he's bringing up. I don't agree with the way he's bringing them up and his narcissism and hatred.
And I do continue to wonder if this "experiment" that the original founders of this country started, is showing it's problems now.
Chicken lady
1-16-16, 11:46am
Cathy, we live is very republican township.
A tree fell on my neighbor's rebel flag pole and we accepted it as a "better late than never" act of God.
When my daughter got involved in a political discussion in high school, one of her classmates said "wait, your parents are * democrats*?" To which she replied, "no, my father is a socially liberal republican and my mother is insane." She has also described my political style as "libertarian communism" ("if we could all just treat each other with love we wouldn't need laws". or, "I believe you should not have to pay taxes. As long as you don't drive on roads, use libraries, law enforcement, courts, or emergency services, or benefit in any way from the education of other people's children.")
catherine
1-16-16, 11:51am
... She has also described my political style as "libertarian communism" ("if we could all just treat each other with love we wouldn't need laws". or, "I believe you should not have to pay taxes. As long as you don't drive on roads, use libraries, law enforcement, courts, or emergency services, or benefit in any way from the education of other people's children.")
haha! Chicken lady, I think we belong to the same political party!
What a great thread! Well done, William!
Historically, these rebuttals are addressing the same issues that have plagued mankind since they gave up the nomadic life that was such a fragile existence in itself.
I remember reading about Susanna Moodie who immigrated to Canada with her husband, both coming from a genteel family who had servants etc., to prep their food, clothing each day. Once in North America, the servants discovered that they did not need to serve any longer and could live an independent life because they had the skills to survive. The genteel families struggled financially, froze and almost starved to death until they learned self-sufficiency.
I do understand the political correctness grumble though. One cannot be honest anymore as it might offend someone somehow. There is a victim mentality that pervades present society and I think the middle class white male is simply having his turn at being the victim. New experience!
:devil: I do love this smiley.
:devil:Oh how I do hope the Republicans actually nominate Trump!:devil:
iris lilies
1-16-16, 12:35pm
:devil:Oh how I do hope the Republicans actually nominate Trump!:devil:
Like it or not, it may well be Trump's race to lose.
I am not the middle class white male the OP is lampooning,but I am always annoyed when the other side trys to represent my POV because they always do it hamhandedly with no nuance. It's just more hate junk out here on the web.
so, thanks tie the annoyance, maybe even the offense today. Can I Claim to be offended? Score!
Agree with Frugalone and Chickenlady. Sick of those who can't see how good they have it ranting about how "those lazy shiftless OTHERS" are going to take it all away... and then this:
I'm tired of people saying bullsh*t and being upset when they're called on it. If you don't care if you offend someone else, don't get your knickers in a twist if they ARE offended. YOU don't get to decide what should upset someone else. If you don't want to hear that they are offended, then shut the effing crap up to start with! Why do people think they should have the right to say any vile thing that drops out of their head, and everyone else should just smile and nod?????
I find this situation rather amusing - someone taking offense because someone said something offensive because they took offense to someone saying something offensive. It's all very circular. And it's odd people expect the other person to break the cycle.
http://www.explorerforum.com/photopost/data/503/medium/4156bloom.jpg
ApatheticNoMore
1-16-16, 1:14pm
I am sick of special interests getting special treatment.
so the answer to this is trump? But won't special interests continue to buy the congress members etc.? Doesn't any president need to work with congress? You may wish for a dictator but it doesn't mean you have the power to elect one. Wouldn't the answer to this that might actually work rather than seeking some political savior be to get a constitutional amendment (this is called Move To Amend) to get money out of politics? That's the most direct route, I suppose one could also try to create a counter force as powerful as all that money, but I don't see Trump alone doing it.
I consider urban America to be a war zone and no one is doing anything about it.
is this some kind of code for the worst areas of poverty. Urban america what a heck of a generalization, the majority of the population of the country also lives in urban areas at least more broadly defined and has for awhile now, even if they seem not to have much influence over early primaries because of how the primary system is set up.
I am willing to create chaos so as to restore order and reclaim my place in this country.
so is there any history of this working, and more specifically is there any history of electing fascists making things better overall? One could say various protest movements have created chaos but I don't actually think that's true. I think they were more often very focused on their goals, not creating random chaos that makes things worse in fact, in the hopes in made things better somehow, even when engaging in direct action etc..
I am ready for real change and I'm not going to be like the poor and expect it or like the very rich and purchase it.......no I am going to demand it and make it so.
by voting? how very passive and obedient of you really .... participating in a rigged game by their rules and thinking that will change things.
I am angry and my guy will make you feel uncomfortable.
So what are you going to do about it?
as far as voting, I don't know what I can, I'm not in a state with an early primary see, in fact we are the group of states with the very last primary of them all, way beyond when super Tuesday has determined everything, so I don't think my vote counts much. But there is a description on a website of an uncle I never met as they were long dead by the time I was born, opposing fascism in the 20s or 30s, and I reckon my position will be likewise. But is Trump properly classified as fascist, well he's a right wing populist who very directly uses racial issues for his political gain so ... He might just as easily be classified as a buffoon, but his ideas are still dangerous even if he's an ridiculous narcissistic reality t.v. show farce become reality.
It's always entertaining to see people who eschew stereotypes embrace them against the only demographic allowed by popular culture.
I'd say I despise most of what Trump stands for, but I suspect he doesn't believe half of what he's saying; he's just pulling the wool over the eyes of people gullible enough to believe his Hitleresque speeches. So who knows what he'd "believe" if actually had to perform.
I've pretty much stopped paying attention to any but the local news because I'm supremely tired of his toxic shtick, and he's getting 24/7 coverage on CNN.
Yeah, there's plenty wrong with the direction this country is going in, led by the New Robber Barons. I believe we can recover control, though, and I'm going to vote accordingly.
iris lilies
1-16-16, 1:30pm
I find this situation rather amusing - someone taking offense because someone said something offensive because they took offense to someone saying something offensive. It's all very circular. And it's odd people expect the other person to break the cycle.
http://www.explorerforum.com/photopost/data/503/medium/4156bloom.jpg
Haha, if you are talking about me, I do NOT expect someone to break the cycle.
Offense is part of daily life.
ToomuchStuff
1-16-16, 1:50pm
The one part of the whole Trump candidacy that I am surprised not to have seen, a comparison between him running for the Republican nomination, verses Perot and his running as an independent.
Otherwise I see some of the same idea's and anger.
Teacher Terry
1-16-16, 2:14pm
I can't believe that both nut jobs Trump and Cruz are so high in the polls and the normal people at the bottom. Trump insults and makes fun of disabled people-very classy. Then Cruz argues that Obama has a birther issue and then completely changes his response when it applies to him. Too funny if it wasn't so sad. Yes we need reform, we need to stop giving all the tax breaks to the wealthy and the corporations. They are what is hurting this country-not poor people.
I think the appeal for both Trump and Sanders speaks to a larger issue regarding people who simply are tired of establishment politics, and the perception that the government is sold to the highest bidder.
Trump has billions and doesn't need the money of special interests.
Sanders has no money, but is rejecting the money of special interests and is depending upon the donations of the grassroots supporters.
DH said that he wants either Trump or Sanders to win, and I told him "you can't like BOTH Sanders and Trump--that doesn't make sense," but I think many people might agree with him, no matter whether you are a staunch conservative or a Democratic socialist.
Brilliant work by Williamsmith!
Interesting the hot-button responses it drew.
My personal politics revolve around not using force against others, voluntarily aiding those who need it, and living in community with others. So I have very little interest in the national elections, and few candidates I can morally support.
I think the obnoxious citizens are getting all the air time. I'm thinking (hoping) those quieter/more reasonable citizens will show up at poll time.
And Trump.............he always starts talking about someone by saying "I like them........we're actually very good friends..........but......." then he says horrible things about them. He's a liar, plain and simple. It's just not making any sense to me what's going on now. :(
I didn't read all, about offensive speech. It is pretty clear that the big thing that happened is people stopped saying these things instead of actually seeing a different point of view. The change is incremental, glacial in fact. We may not say racist things so much but our prison system and many other measures says that we are still acting on this.
So as a non-traditional person just tell me that you are angry I am not Christian or even that I am going to hell instead of flipping out about Merry Christmas or a red starbucks cup,
Just curious............how would it be handled, if the president were to be one of the evangelicals? I'm sure he wouldn't separate church and state very well. Should that be a requirement of the presidency........that he can't bring that to his administration?
Or would that all be acceptable since supposedly that's what the majority chose? (Especially if there were many of them in Congress).
Just curious............how would it be handled, if the president were to be one of the evangelicals? I'm sure he wouldn't separate church and state very well. Should that be a requirement of the presidency........that he can't bring that to his administration?
Or would that all be acceptable since supposedly that's what the majority chose? (Especially if there were many of them in Congress).
I thought we went through all that when Kennedy was elected...
Also, it seems to me it would be unconstitutional to require membership, or lack of membership, in any particular sect as a requirment for office:
"... no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
ApatheticNoMore
1-16-16, 3:55pm
It could make one angry at white males, but most of the white males I actually know and love are close to social democrats (and the clear choice there is Sanders) or points further left than that. So what to do ....
It could make one angry at white males, ....
That's a thing these days.
It could make one angry at white males, but most of the white males I actually know and love are close to social democrats (and the clear choice there is Sanders) or points further left than that. So what to do ....
I have a lot of white males in my life. I see the younger people struggle however out of the 4 closest to me only one has the leanings towards being a really angry white male. The others are in cultures where they have a diversity of friends, see what other people go through with race and gender, and are looking at the struggles in their life as not a condition of being white and male. So I see great hope in that, we encourage other groups to take charge and responsibility to challenges (with a lot of evidence that they face significant extra challenges) so being fair across the lines should encourage the same. However I see the stress of older white males who have expectations of the younger generation to do things that are not how the world is working right now.
Yes, I know the angst people had when they feared that Kennedy would force everyone to become Catholic..........but he didn't act and talk like some of the far right evangelicals of today....running for president.
Yes, I know the angst people had when they feared that Kennedy would force everyone to become Catholic..........but he didn't act and talk like some of the far right evangelicals of today....running for president.
I believe the issue of the day was "as a Catholic, will Kennedy allow the Pope to run the country?". So it's a perfect parallel.
Gardenarian
1-16-16, 5:10pm
WilliamSmith, I agree with many (but not all) of your opinions.
However, I don't have feelings about it. I keep my emotions separate, I guess. I think it helps not to watch television news or listen to the radio.
I'm not sure what being a white male has to do with it. There's no need to define yourself by some imaginary demographic dreamed up by news agencies; you're just playing into their hands.
You are a unique individual, not a pawn.
I also want change, but of a very different sort (http://deepgreenresistance.org/en/).
I also want change, but of a very different sort (http://deepgreenresistance.org/en/).
The first rule of Fight Club.... :-)
I thought we went through all that when Kennedy was elected...."
In all fairness, John Kennedy was not a Bible-waving, wild-eyed evangelical like Huckabee, Santorum, Cruz. He was just a man who attended the Catholic Church. Jimmy Carter would be one example of a Christian who just lived his faith rather than trying to cram it down all our throats, as many fear this Republican crop would do.
Gardenarian
1-16-16, 5:47pm
Barring some act of God, the Republicans are not going to win this election. I'm not paying any attention to their antics.
Barring some act of God, the Republicans are not going to win this election. I'm not paying any attention to their antics.
Thank goodness I'm an atheist so I find it highly unlikely that there are any acts of God, much less one that will influence our election.
The first rule of Fight Club.... :-)
don't talk about Fight Club, of course
Im your average white middleclass male. I make up well over half of the country especially if you include my influence over family and friends. And I am angry.
I am tired of checking my words before I speak them just because I may offend someone who needs to just get on with their lives.
I believe our condition calls for drastic measures and I am tired of sitting on the sidelines.
I am angry and my guy will make you feel uncomfortable.
So what are you going to do about it?
I am very uncomfortable over the integrity of the leading republican candidate. Politifact shows that only 19 percent of his political statements are half-true or better. Compare that to Hillary who has 71% half-true or better and Bernie at 32%.
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/
I am very uncomfortable over the integrity of the leading republican candidate. Politifact shows that only 19 percent of his political statements are half-true or better. Compare that to Hillary who has 71% half-true or better and Bernie at 32%.
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/
That seems pretty low for Bernie. I read it as closer to 70% at Politifacts.
That seems pretty low for Bernie. I read it as closer to 70% at Politifacts.
Yes. I stand corrected. Mia Culpa.
You know what I'm sick of? People with no work ethic who expect a handout to improve their situation. Prime example is the daughter of a coworker. The other day coworker and I actually had it out at lunch. Coworker is late 30s. Had daughter at 16. On welfare for a while, but got a job and worked her way up. She's Filipino. Daughter had a baby at 21, baby daddy barely in picture. Girl and baby live with my coworker. Girl works a little, driving for Uber, but only to make a bit of money. What set me off the other day is that coworker said she wished her daughter got help from the gov't. I told coworker her daughter getting pregnant without a husband or a steady partner was not my responsibility. If her daughter doesn't have the work ethic to actually keep working more than a bit, I'll be danged if I pay for that.
I work my arse off. I can't stand people who have no work ethic. If you're not disabled or sick, you have no reason to be unemployed. Coworker's daughter is lazy, coworker is enabling her, and I told her so. I don't coddle people. I kick arse.
I don't like Trump, but I'm plain spoken myself, so he's been entertaining to watch, that's for sure.
Interesting that you mention she's a Filipina. Is that relevant in some way?
ApatheticNoMore
1-17-16, 12:41pm
I work my arse off. I can't stand people who have no work ethic. If you're not disabled or sick, you have no reason to be unemployed. Coworker's daughter is lazy, coworker is enabling her, and I told her so. I don't coddle people. I kick arse.
women have done the not working to raise kids model for awhile. It's not entirely fair or right, but a lot of people will marry and let a man support them while they just raise kids (I have always been too proud to consider that frankly, it seems deeply wrong for the man to be the only one working outside the house - especially it seems unfair to the man - too much too shoulder alone). They'll say stuff like raising a kid is a job, but that has never been remotely plausible to me (it's effort, that is true, but it's not a job)
catherine
1-17-16, 12:51pm
women have done the not working to raise kids model for awhile. It's not entirely fair or right, but a lot of people will marry and let a man support them while they just raise kids (I have always been too proud to consider that ....). They'll say stuff like raising a kid is a job, but that has never been remotely plausible to me (it's effort, that is true, but it's not a job)
I used to be so jealous of my husband when I was home with the kids and he went to work, and had the freedom to take time off and go to lunch with his friends, go to the gym after work, and pretty much call his time his own, and reap recognition from his boss and peers while he was at it. I had no free time (as in zero), no recognition, no lunch, no gym.
I've known a lot of corporate colleagues who cut their their maternity leave short because they'd rather be at work than at home with their kids.
I'm not saying I regret my choice AT ALL, I'm just saying that it takes raising a child to know exactly how draining it is. Are there women who bring the nanny to the country club pool with them so they can sip wine and nap during the day? Sure, but that's the minority.
But to Tradd's point, there are abuses all over. As liberal as I am, I do tend to get annoyed at anyone--whether a young single mother of ANY race or a wealthy person or a corporation--who tries to the game the system. It is annoying to be around people who take advantage of others--that's for sure, but that trait certainly crosses racial and ethnic lines--I could name white people in my own family who could claim it.
You know what I'm sick of? People with no work ethic who expect a handout to improve their situation. Prime example is the daughter of a coworker. The other day coworker and I actually had it out at lunch. Coworker is late 30s. Had daughter at 16. On welfare for a while, but got a job and worked her way up. She's Filipino. Daughter had a baby at 21, baby daddy barely in picture. Girl and baby live with my coworker. Girl works a little, driving for Uber, but only to make a bit of money. What set me off the other day is that coworker said she wished her daughter got help from the gov't. I told coworker her daughter getting pregnant without a husband or a steady partner was not my responsibility. If her daughter doesn't have the work ethic to actually keep working more than a bit, I'll be danged if I pay for that.
I work my arse off. I can't stand people who have no work ethic. If you're not disabled or sick, you have no reason to be unemployed. Coworker's daughter is lazy, coworker is enabling her, and I told her so. I don't coddle people. I kick arse.
I don't like Trump, but I'm plain spoken myself, so he's been entertaining to watch, that's for sure.
Depending on the daughter's skillset she may well end up spending her entire paycheck on childcare. May as well stay home and bond with the kid.
I think Trump is only one aspect of the politics of anger. Bernie Sanders seems to me to be hawking the same snake oil from the other side of the street: promising peace and plenty if we will only join him in his hostility to the malefactors of great wealth. College campuses seem overrun with pampered proletarians demanding the power to quash the rights of the ideologically unworthy. In some cities, vandalism and looting seem to be an accepted form of political expression. The trendy new construct of "White Privilege" seems to be used primarily by white people seeking to race-bait other white people. Inequality is decried all over, particularly in the most unequal precincts, which are generally run by the party demanding equality. Rural militias take arms over who has authority over the middle of nowhere. Eveyrone seems to have a favorite villain.
But are things really that bad? Are Lex Luthor and the Koch brothers cackling in their secret headquarters? Is Hillary Clinton drafting a lese majeste clauseto the first amendment? Has Goldman Sachs contracted with the NSA to outsource their credit rating function? Will the Obama administration gift us with a final series of Erastian executive orders to subdue the bitter clingers? Are we truly on the brink of chaos, strife and destitution?
Or are we simply in a period of hysterical political rhetoric that will simply fade into a rather embarrassing footnote to a fairly uninteresting period of history?
...
Or are we simply in a period of hysterical political rhetoric that will simply fade into a rather embarrassing footnote to a fairly uninteresting period of history?
I hope you're right, even as I wish we could stifle the modern Robber Barons--at least a little. Eisenhower-era tax rates, anyone?
I hope you're right, even as I wish we could stifle the modern Robber Barons--at least a little. Eisenhower-era tax rates, anyone?
I'm in!
:+1:
ApatheticNoMore
1-17-16, 1:50pm
I used to be so jealous of my husband when I was home with the kids and he went to work, and had the freedom to take time off and go to lunch with his friends
just be sure to clock in and out for lunch as every minute must be accounted for and made up some way. By friends you mean coworkers right? Most of us work miles and miles away from any real friends and their jobs, making seeing them at lunch entirely nonviable (this is NOT EUROPE with it's dense cities where you hang out for a 2 hour leisurely lunch with friends or something afterall - this is the U.S. where the pressures of work and distance alienates us from our friends further). And coworkers are really a poor substitution for friends, you can't talk to them about things the way you might friends, so it's always the same boring safe topics that bore me to death, I'd rather eat alone and do, I much prefer my own company to that inane chatter (powerball is the topic du jour for coworkers now, I am so sick of hearing about powerball I can't even say. Listen delusional idiots: you are not going to win the fricken powerball! enough about powerball already!).
go to the gym after work, and pretty much call his time his own
by the end of the day I'm far too tired to think about gyms, that's the reality for most it seems. But yes you have a tiny amount of time to call your own and it can be true me time. It seems to me the stay at home mom has far more time to call their own if they enjoy what they do because isn't time enjoyed with kids their own in a way work never can be? Isn't playing with the kids their own time in a way a job can never be?
and reap recognition from his boss and peers while he was at it.
or not, most people aren't reaping a heck of a lot of recognition these days. this reaping recognition stuff is more a mythical conception of work than the reality much of the time. Near invisibility seems far more often the reality.
I had no free time (as in zero), no recognition, no lunch, no gym.
isn't playing with the kids free time? Doing jigsaws with them? Baking cookies with the kids? Teaching the kids stuff like sewing etc.? This very much seems like free time to me, almost the very definition of play, even though it is true it's not "me time", which people also need (hire a babysitter occasionally or I guess there is no money for that because one paycheck barely covers bills - poor suffering husband who has the entire responsibility for whether a whole bunch of other humans eat on him). Of course you can't do this playing with the kids with a screaming infant I guess, but that stage is temporary.
I've known a lot of corporate colleagues who cut their their maternity leave short because they'd rather be at work than at home with their kids.
They probably shouldn't have had kids. I have no problem with them working (in fact if we insist that everyone not working lacks worth ethic then ...), but if they actively hate being with their kids - nope probably wasn't the best choice.
I hope you're right, even as I wish we could stifle the modern Robber Barons--at least a little. Eisenhower-era tax rates, anyone?
"Modern Robber Barons" are a very popular choice of scapegoat right now.
But if "stifling" some unpopular group was the solution to a nation's problems, wouldn't someone over the course of history have hit upon just the right villain to defeat?
"Modern Robber Barons" are a very popular choice of scapegoat right now.
But if "stifling" some unpopular group was the solution to a nation's problems, wouldn't someone over the course of history have hit upon just the right villain to defeat?
Well it's not like I'm advocating a French-style purge of the aristocracy. But now that I think about it, that worked pretty well for the French. :idea:
Wow, lots of stuff around the mommy wars. And why is it moms who are in this instead of parents? I know men who take a primary role or stay home. However my job is childcare so I see working parents, some without jobs who have kids come to the enrichment clubs I run.
I stayed home a long time. I had times I was jealous of my husband for some of his freedoms and times I really appreciated the role I had in the family. And yeah, I worked hard. You can be a stay home parent in many ways, one is hiring out everything possible and 'playing' ranging to cooking everything from scratch, doing taxes, lots of work keeping to strict budgets, and in my case a large DR visit load. My ex worked an hour away from home so there was no option to have him take a DR appointment now and then, but eventually they got a little healthier and I was able to ease back into outside jobs.
isn't playing with the kids free time?
It's free if you can walk away at any time to go to the bathroom by yourself. It's free if you can walk away and read a book and trust that the kid won't stick a penny in a socket (which my DD did). It's free if you can say, "I'm tired of this now, why don't you just go to sleep for 2 hours and I'll see you later" and they, of course, comply.
I'm not saying that motherhood does not have its own rewards. Of course it does. I loved being a mother. But so does work. I enjoyed work (and still do), and after I had kids and then returned to work, I used to say that I went to work to relax. I had a FAR more relaxing day behind my desk than at home.
Watching 4 kids under the age of 7 is NOT free time, no matter how committed you are to the job. Your mind is ON for at least 14 hours a day.
It's free if you can walk away at any time to go to the bathroom by yourself. It's free if you can walk away and read a book and trust that the kid won't stick a penny in a socket (which my DD did). It's free if you can say, "I'm tired of this now, why don't you just go to sleep for 2 hours and I'll see you later" and they, of course, comply.
I'm not saying that motherhood does not have its own rewards. Of course it does. I loved being a mother. But so does work. I enjoyed work (and still do), and after I had kids and then returned to work, I used to say that I went to work to relax. I had a FAR more relaxing day behind my desk than at home.
Watching 4 kids under the age of 7 is NOT free time, no matter how committed you are to the job. Your mind is ON for at least 14 hours a day.
I saw life choices as:
Motherhood
School
Work
The first two were too much work for me given the return on satisfaction and fun. I chose Work as my only path, and that was right for me.
rodeosweetheart
1-17-16, 2:22pm
So true, Catherine. I never realized how easy work was until I was home with my toddlers. Good God, that was exhausting. And it's not just being on 14 hours a day--there are the nights where you are up with croup, the visits to the ER, the constant vigilance. Work was much easier for me, and a hell of a lot more fun. And I adored my kids, and did not put them in day care. Who knows, maybe that would have been better for all of us.
Watching 4 kids under the age of 7 is NOT free time, no matter how committed you are to the job. Your mind is ON for at least 14 hours a day.
We found the first five or six years of our daughter's life to be a sort of suicide watch. No matter how much effort you put into "child-proofing" the house, they find remarkably ingenious ways to put themselves in danger. That, and their fascination with using toilets in ways outside the intended purpose, required eternal vigilance.
Chicken lady
1-17-16, 2:31pm
ApatheticNoMore,
Somebody has to raise kids (the alternative is the current generation gets very old and dies off as food production and health care end and we become extinct.
If you get paid to raise kids (nanny, coach, teacher, housemother, clergy, babysitter, tutor, etc) it's a job. If you don't, it's still a job. Some jobs are terrific. Some jobs suck. Sometimes they are the same job to different people.
I quit working to raise my kids full time. Dh and I were both happy that we had that choice. I loved that job. Not all of it, but most of it. And the best parts far outweighed the worst for me. I think my kids benefited by being raised by someone who loved raising them. My mil stayed home to raise her kids and she clearly hated it. Actually, my theory is she stayed home to clean her house and was stuck with her kids. They would have been better off if she had gotten a paying job and hired someone who found joy in calming a screaming infant and reading stories and doing crafts and projects and playing games to raise them.
My dd1 hopes her dh will raise their kids (wedding ths summer) as he'd be terrific at it, but if not, she plans to hire out most of the work, because it is not a job she would love full time. Most evenings and weekends she's ok with.
I also love the job I have now, where I get paid to help raise other people's kids. I am a great teacher. I was a great mom. I'd be a terrible, miserable corporate drone.
It would seem that If you enjoy what you are doing, that is time for you and if you hate it it is work (task done for external reward/avoidance of negative consequence?) wether you are paid or not. I would argue that there are times teaching my class is more my own time than playing with my kids was (I prefer teaching how to attach a handle to teaching how to lose or win with grace.)
Dh doesn't love his job, but he's good at it. And so far, the good parts (including company health club, lunches out with co-workers who have become his friends, and good pay) compensate him enough for the worst parts - including working 7-bedtime every day on what is supposed to be a 3 day weekend. (oh yeah, and retirement. His job has a retirement package.) My retirement package from raising kids involves having my "products" return free labor.
ApatheticNoMore
1-17-16, 2:33pm
I saw life choices as:
Motherhood
School
Work
well you can't stay in school forever, even an MD eventually graduates. But I was good in school in a way I never am at work, so I should have stayed in school a little longer for certain. If you mean being a professor, once upon a time that would have sounded like a dream job, but now it's way too dog eat dog as so many try for it and so few get it. I don't think I'd be good at motherhood,so for the sake of the kids I never reproduced (I never though it was fair for them to have me as a mother, and in many ways I don't think it's fair to bring people into the world), however I think it would have real satisfaction in a way work has only deep soul sucking emptiness that leaves you deeply depressed and desparing at the end of the day wondering: "is this all there is?". Really though the full time motherhood choice isn't much respected (you are a traitor to feminism). The school forever choice isn't much respected (when are you going to get a job already, you shiftless good for nothing). Work is respected, in a way nothing else is, in this society.
So true, Catherine. I never realized how easy work was until I was home with my toddlers. Good God, that was exhausting. And it's not just being on 14 hours a day--there are the nights where you are up with croup, the visits to the ER, the constant vigilance. Work was much easier for me, and a hell of a lot more fun. And I adored my kids, and did not put them in day care. Who knows, maybe that would have been better for all of us.
So true! "Well-rested mother" is probably an oxymoron.
I do not blame ANM for thinking that endless rounds of finger painting, diaper-changing, cookie-making is free time. I realize a lot of people don't see that a mother's "free time" is having to plan and pack for every short trip out of the house and hope you get back having remembered everything you were there for, and without losing a kid, or having one have a tantrum in the check-out line. A mother's "free time" is going years without the simple pleasure of going to a movie because who wants to spend precious baby-sitting budget on a movie?*
*ETA: I remember my husband was out of town and a friend from church said, "Let's go to a movie," and I said, "I can't go to a movie! I've got the kids!" She talked me into getting a babysitter. I hadn't been to a movie in probably 4-5 years, and I still remember the pure pleasure of sitting and watching "Running on Empty" with River Phoenix in the dark with the popcorn and the soda. Every time I see that movie in the TV listings, I recall it fondly as my first post-Mom movie.
Chicken lady
1-17-16, 2:45pm
Lol! I remember when we moved and they interviewed me for the church bulletin and asked what the last book was I read. I said "green eggs and ham.". You really had to go back more than three years to get the kind of answer they were looking for.
ApatheticNoMore, I think that the fact that we as a society repect work for which you get paid more than work for which you do not, and pay more for work that does not involve meeting basic human needs (advanced medicine excepted) is part of the problem. It's a key player in the suicidal middle class white male, the middle aged female executive heart attack, and the concept of the "welfare queen"
Choice is the greatest! I know that I was great at the million multi-tasks and now I basically do that at work. I get feedback that I am really patient and capable, but I did not start that way with my first kid. All I wanted for awhile was control of my life back!
So true! "Well-rested mother" is probably an oxymoron.
I do not blame ANM for thinking that endless rounds of finger painting, diaper-changing, cookie-making is free time. I realize a lot of people don't see that a mother's "free time" is having to plan and pack for every short trip out of the house and hope you get back having remembered everything you were there for, and without losing a kid, or having one have a tantrum in the check-out line. A mother's "free time" is going years without the simple pleasure of going to a movie because who wants to spend precious baby-sitting budget on a movie?*
...
Make no mistake, as a working girl I did not resent coworkers being home "with sick kids" for more than a moment. Once or twice I probably did resent them, but I got over that fast, and early. Because I could see in my imagination what that sick kid thing all entailed, that was a big NOPE for me. Id rather be at work. :)
Teacher Terry
1-17-16, 4:06pm
I stayed at home until the youngest of my 3 went to school f.t. It was hard work but I never regretted it. My youngest had a chronic illness that would sometimes have him miss a month of school at a time. ER visits in middle of night, etc. I was always on duty. I never had so much as a glass of wine because I had to be on it 24-7. It would have been much easier to work and when I did go back it was. Thankfully my hubby was supportive but yeah the only time I was free was when my Mom watched the kids. Easy to make assumptions when you have not done it.
freshstart
1-17-16, 4:06pm
I chose to have children but I also chose a husband who I thought would truly co-parent with me and I would work half time, going back to full time once the kids were in school. I was raised not to be dependent on a man, I needed to work because that was what I deeply believed. We worked different shifts so our children didn't have to go to daycare. Both my pregnancies were high risk, DS was a preemie and after all those months on bed rest and being with him 24/7 for the first 9 mos of his life, eventually I needed the structure of work. We could've lived on ex's salary but I did not do well at home with no imposed schedule, I found being a SAHM very difficult, I also had PPD so that contributed to how hard it was. So I started back half-time and I was a better mother because of it. My ex switched to nights and he stayed up everyday until I got home from work. He was the most capable, nurturing dad I knew, he thrived when at home. We probably should've done the opposite, me work full time, him half time. Does that mean I should not have had children, that I found I needed to work outside the home meant I was unfit to mother? I think that's a load of crap. Children thrive with 2 loving parents and it matters not who works and who doesn't.
Eventually, for other reasons, we divorced and successful co-parenting ended because he chose to run me down to the kids, tried to break our bonds. That's not really germaine here, just being honest. But even without successful co-parenting, children can still thrive. And children thrive with single parents who have to work. Not for a second did I wish or believe that I should not have had children. That is an immensely personal decision that should not be determined or judged by others. I would argue we can agree on that. Why can we not agree on that when it comes to impoverished single moms?
I can attest that being a SAHM is work for the moms or for the dads. Was my career harder? It doesn't matter, it's comparing apples and oranges. It's time to stop arguing this issue, make your own choices to work or stay home, to breed or not, the grass is not greener on the other side. The feminists who went before us fought so that we could have a choice, not so we would argue endlessly about which is the better choice.
And it's really time to stop criticizing "welfare" moms who never got the Work to Welfare programs they were promised. It makes no sense for a woman to earn minimum wage if she has to pay the majority of that on day care. It is wrong to say who can breed and who has to be sterilized chemically so as not to add to children living in poverty. Provide training, child care and these women will work. But we will never know this because this country devalues this population of women so much, it's sickening. As for Welfare Queens, dig a little deeper, they are, for the most part, an urban myth. The majority of these moms grew up impoverished in broken homes, attended the shittiest of public schools, received no guidance that there even are better options after HS, were in no way prepared for college and we expect them to rise above all that with zero help and succeed. Could you do that? Maybe yes, because the users on here are above average intelligence. Some women can rise above the way they were raised totally on their own, but we should should offer a helping hand to those who can't.
Teacher Terry
1-17-16, 4:15pm
I totally agree with you FS. I was a social worker and saw this stuff first hand. We had a really successful program that offered up to 2 years of job training and then free childcare, etc and these woman went back to work. It was also cheaper for society. Welfare queens are definitely an urban myth. I think having 1 parent working p.t. is great but you have to be in jobs that allow you to work different then the day shift so you don't need daycare. I have friends that never stopped working and that did not make them bad parents either. They all raised great kids.
And it's really time to stop criticizing "welfare" moms who never got the Work to Welfare programs they were promised. It makes no sense for a woman to earn minimum wage if she has to pay the majority of that on day care. It is wrong to say who can breed and who has to be sterilized chemically so as not to add to children living in poverty. Provide training, child care and these women will work. But we will never know this because this country devalues this population of women so much, it's sickening. As for Welfare Queens, dig a little deeper, they are, for the most part, an urban myth. .
thank you, the 'welfare moms' are people I work with. In fact until the last year our school district paid so low that half of our front line staff were on some type of social assistance. I now have many families who get the state child care assistance and they are working and doing great, I doubt they would be able to do all that they do for their kids without that support, and it is evaluated every year and a parent fee is set so the state also benefits from the parents getting better jobs, paying more into the system. I really like that grandparents who take their grandchildren get help through this system, several families have had the parents improve enough to take custody back which is a success.
Right now I am thinking a lot about Michigan, both the Detroit schools that have pictures posted of how they are crumbling but also the Flint water emergency. That is going to cause massive brain damage and learning disabilities in that city.
freshstart
1-17-16, 4:34pm
thank you, the 'welfare moms' are people I work with. In fact until the last year our school district paid so low that half of our front line staff were on some type of social assistance. I now have many families who get the state child care assistance and they are working and doing great, I doubt they would be able to do all that they do for their kids without that support, and it is evaluated every year and a parent fee is set so the state also benefits from the parents getting better jobs, paying more into the system. I really like that grandparents who take their grandchildren get help through this system, several families have had the parents improve enough to take custody back which is a success.
Right now I am thinking a lot about Michigan, both the Detroit schools that have pictures posted of how they are crumbling but also the Flint water emergency. That is going to cause massive brain damage and learning disabilities in that city.
thank you for the work that you do, it must be satisfying to see families succeed. I always saw the crap end of the stick when I did traditional home care. Little kids being raised by grandma or great-grandma who was sick enough to need my services. They did their best to raise those kids but many of these women were very ill and unable to do a whole lot. So I saw kids being removed from the home or just being failed in every way but not on purpose. I hated that piece of my job, seeing what true poverty looks like for all involved.
Interesting that you mention she's a Filipina. Is that relevant in some way?
Yes. Just to prove this isn't confined to blacks or poor whites.
women have done the not working to raise kids model for awhile. It's not entirely fair or right, but a lot of people will marry and let a man support them while they just raise kids (I have always been too proud to consider that frankly, it seems deeply wrong for the man to be the only one working outside the house - especially it seems unfair to the man - too much too shoulder alone). They'll say stuff like raising a kid is a job, but that has never been remotely plausible to me (it's effort, that is true, but it's not a job)
SAHM are quite a different thing from a 20-something who had a kid out of wedlock and whose family members think the gov't should be giving help to since she's a single mother.
Depending on the daughter's skillset she may well end up spending her entire paycheck on childcare. May as well stay home and bond with the kid.
Family members are providing childcare.
Yes. Just to prove this isn't confined to blacks or poor whites.
Thanks for clearing that up.
And it's really time to stop criticizing "welfare" moms who never got the Work to Welfare programs they were promised. It makes no sense for a woman to earn minimum wage if she has to pay the majority of that on day care. It is wrong to say who can breed and who has to be sterilized chemically so as not to add to children living in poverty. Provide training, child care and these women will work. But we will never know this because this country devalues this population of women so much, it's sickening. As for Welfare Queens, dig a little deeper, they are, for the most part, an urban myth. The majority of these moms grew up impoverished in broken homes, attended the shittiest of public schools, received no guidance that there even are better options after HS, were in no way prepared for college and we expect them to rise above all that with zero help and succeed. Could you do that? Maybe yes, because the users on here are above average intelligence. Some women can rise above the way they were raised totally on their own, but we should should offer a helping hand to those who can't.
Amen.
and would someone provide a graph of government monies given as corporate welfare vs. welfare to the supposed horde of able-bodied individual "moochers"? Let's get this into perspective so if the goal is to spend taxpayer money in the best possible way we can see who the true takers are in our society? Continuing to blame our economic woes on the poor is a waste on every level.
gimmethesimplelife
1-18-16, 12:47am
Well I'm white, I'm male, and due to wise thrift shop purchases and loving to read I can appear as if middle class. But I'm not angry......things are better for me than they have been in some time. Lots of banquet shifts, some primo mystery shops due to building business relationships with schedulers and I'm starting to sell used books online too. It is possible that I may leave the Medicaid rolls which to me is nothing short of amazing. And did I mention I'm happily married too? I believe we enter and exit seasons in our lives and I have entered into a very good season in my life out of nowhere. As to politics.....I'm all for Sanders but will vote for Hillary if she gets nominated which no longer seems preordained. Funny but I'm very deeply in love and politics don't seem as vitally important to me now. Truly I am lucky to be at this place in my life and I'd rather have this happiness and my ongoing struggles than be alone and middle class for real. I guess I've even lost my envy of the middle class. Rob
freshstart
1-18-16, 9:51am
may this period last a very long time for you
gimmethesimplelife
1-18-16, 2:33pm
Freshstart, Thank You. That's very kind of you.
Teacher Terry
1-18-16, 5:51pm
So glad to see that things are going well for you and awesome that you are so in love:cool:.
gimmethesimplelife
1-18-16, 8:17pm
Thank You too, Teacher Terry....Rob
Williamsmith
1-20-16, 11:12am
The white angry middleclass is having an orgy of excitement over Sarah Palins endorsement of Trump. Can you say Madamme Secretary of State Palin?
So, angry white man, how do you feel about this new turn of events? Personally I'm relieved, I had a feeling my Dad might actually vote for Trump out of pure peevishness, but no way is he voting for Palin.
ETA: oh, I guess she's not actually his running mate (yet), but there's a thought for ya.
Ultralight
1-20-16, 11:31am
I think a Trump/Palin presidency would ultimately be good for the US.
It'd be a painful 8 years, but after that I think there would be a lot of wising up in this country.
I think a Trump/Palin presidency would ultimately be good for the US.
It'd be a painful 8 years, but after that I think there would be a lot of wising up in this country.
I'm not sure we could survive those years.........as a nation or as individuals.
Ultralight
1-20-16, 12:39pm
We'd muddle through for the most part. I have said this before and I will say it again: Americans need to learn that stupidity has negative consequences.
Trump is the man to teach Americans that lesson -- the hard way.
I think, as usual, the people who vote for our new president will excuse his/her actions by blaming congress, and the ones who didn't vote for that person will blame him/her for everything wrong in the world before the inauguration even takes place. Deliver us from Donald.
I think a Trump/Palin presidency would ultimately be good for the US.
It'd be a painful 8 years, but after that I think there would be a lot of wising up in this country.
I would see it as roughly the same level of stupidity as the past eight, with perhaps half the condescension.
I'm going to send the Rubio campaign a few bucks and hope for the best.
Williamsmith
1-20-16, 12:51pm
So, angry white man, how do you feel about this new turn of events? Personally I'm relieved, I had a feeling my Dad might actually vote for Trump out of pure peevishness, but no way is he voting for Palin.
ETA: oh, I guess she's not actually his running mate (yet), but there's a thought for ya.
The angry white middleclass is looking forward to Sarah Palin addressing the Republican Party convention in Cleveland making the nomination speech for Trump with an AR 15 rifle slung around her chest wearing an NRA cap and a NASCAR pit crew coat. Who cares about what Trump really believes. It's all about rubbing the oppositions noses in it and winning.
Ultralight
1-20-16, 1:13pm
I am sick that my kids are going to be worse off than I was at their age.
Tough question here:
The way you phrase this, and within its context, it seems like you think this is a systemic -- and political -- issue. Isn't the Republican response to say: "Your kids are worse off than you at their age because of personal failings? Life is what you make of it, Horatio Alger! Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and quit your crying!"
I think, as usual, the people who vote for our new president will excuse his/her actions by blaming congress, and the ones who didn't vote for that person will blame him/her for everything wrong in the world before the inauguration even takes place. Deliver us from Donald.
Americans need to read the Constitution and understand what the role and powers of the President actually are.
Williamsmith
1-20-16, 1:37pm
Tough question here:
The way you phrase this, and within its context, it seems like you think this is a systemic -- and political -- issue. Isn't the Republican response to say: "Your kids are worse off than you at their age because of personal failings? Life is what you make of it, Horatio Alger! Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and quit your crying!"
The angry white middleclass doesn't understand the nuances of your question. They don't know who Horatio Alger is and they can't find bootstraps on their swamper boots. All they know is Jr. And his pregnant girlfriend are shacked up in the spare bedroom because the two part time jobs they work can't cover the costs of rent in an apartment.
They see the writing on the wall and instead of taking vacations with their retirements savings, they will be staying at home, raising their grandchildren and subsidizing their children's lives for eternity. They don't necessarily see Trump changing things as much as they see him being the delivery system for blowing up the establishment whom they blame for their current status.
They are pissed off and "two Corinthians" doesn't matter to them. Actually, it's really quite funny.
Actually, it's really quite funny.Escapist fiction or social satire usually is.
Americans need to read the Constitution and understand what the role and powers of the President actually are.
Personally, I'm often grateful for our "obstructionist congress".
ApatheticNoMore
1-20-16, 2:10pm
We'd muddle through for the most part. I have said this before and I will say it again: Americans need to learn that stupidity has negative consequences.
Trump is the man to teach Americans that lesson -- the hard way.
I don't think stupid policies will teach people that stupid policies are bad, it will just make them used to stupid policies and more willing to accept them in the future, I think that's how it really works in the real world. Some kind of status quo bias. It might at best make them cynical and hopeless about the political system (which isn't all that desirable, it desirable to see what's wrong with it. But to be so hopeless you don't even try anymore, not so much). No, I don't really believe in hitting bottom either. And I don't believe what doesn't kill us makes us stronger either (it often makes us weaker, at best it gives us some insight, but strength not so much).
Ultralight
1-20-16, 2:27pm
I don't think stupid policies will teach people that stupid policies are bad, it will just make them used to stupid policies and more willing to accept them in the future, I think that's how it really works in the real world. Some kind of status quo bias. It might at best make them cynical and hopeless about the political system (which isn't all that desirable, it desirable to see what's wrong with it. But to be so hopeless you don't even try anymore, not so much). No, I don't really believe in hitting bottom either. And I don't believe what doesn't kill us makes us stronger either (it often makes us weaker, at best it gives us some insight, but strength not so much).
Well, I personally am totally cynical and hopeless. So I am cool with that. ;)
freshstart
1-20-16, 6:10pm
So, angry white man, how do you feel about this new turn of events? Personally I'm relieved, I had a feeling my Dad might actually vote for Trump out of pure peevishness, but no way is he voting for Palin.
ETA: oh, I guess she's not actually his running mate (yet), but there's a thought for ya.
my dad, as well. I told him, "there ya go, stupid is as stupid does." Or Secretary of State after someone explains the job description, she can take her canoe and paddle right over to Russia.
I can't imagine Trump wanting her for a running mate. In fact, I'd bet he doesn't like her at all and is just using her to get those masses even more riled up. It wouldn't surprise me if he quietly hates her.
I can't imagine Trump wanting her for a running mate. In fact, I'd bet he doesn't like her at all and is just using her to get those masses even more riled up. It wouldn't surprise me if he quietly hates her.
You're probably right. It's not as if Trump's promised her anything specific. Or at least not publicly, which is all that matters. Cruz needs to be in the news if he wants to have a chance in Iowa and NH but Trump, with Palin's help, has now hogged at least a couple of days of campaign news coverage all for himself.
Personally, I'm often grateful for our "obstructionist congress".
More than once I've had the feeling that Congressional gridlock was the only speed bump slowing us down on the road to ruin.
Williamsmith
1-20-16, 11:42pm
More than once I've had the feeling that Congressional gridlock was the only speed bump slowing us down on the road to ruin.
You must love Raphael Cruz then.
I wonder what our allies are thinking?? That maybe we need more medication?
What a circus. It's embarrassing.
I wonder what our allies are thinking?? That maybe we need more medication?
What a circus. It's embarrassing.
Want a circus? Check out the UK Parliament's "question time" some day...
Williamsmith
2-7-16, 4:16am
After viewing parts of last nights New Hampshire Presidential debates it is obvious none of them get it. Trump is most lost. There are many who are ready to disassociate themselves from Trump as the vehicle by which Washington is destroyed. Republican candidates otherwise falsely believe they might be able to pick his bones for followers. They will either stay home.....or vote for Bernie. But Bernie must get past the Clinton machine. What is she willing to do to be President.........I think pretty much anything.
Williamsmith
2-17-16, 2:24pm
The GOP tried the hands off approach and Trump only got stronger. Now they seem to be attacking Trump. Trump has solidified his piece of the GOP/Independent pie. The white angry middleclass are going to wreck the GOP one way or another. The Trump/Cruz feud --- Cruz is going to go down in flames because of the two, Cruz claims the moral high ground, the ear of God himself and this unbecomes his Christian values.....or so called. Cruz is maybe getting sidetracked because he feels desperate. I am almost convinced Trump might have this thing sewed up after South Carolina. Very entertaining.
Ultralight
2-17-16, 2:30pm
The GOP tried the hands off approach and Trump only got stronger. Now they seem to be attacking Trump. Trump has solidified his piece of the GOP/Independent pie. The white angry middleclass are going to wreck the GOP one way or another. The Trump/Cruz feud --- Cruz is going to go down in flames because of the two, Cruz claims the moral high ground, the ear of God himself and this unbecomes his Christian values.....or so called. Cruz is maybe getting sidetracked because he feels desperate. I am almost convinced Trump might have this thing sewed up after South Carolina. Very entertaining.
Between Billary and Trump, I am so tempted to vote Trump. Though I will probably just stay home and "sad-LOL" either way.
Williamsmith
2-17-16, 3:03pm
I would vote for Trump just to see the establishment nominee go home. Anger. That is the only constant in this election and it may well be the deciding factor. I'll tell you what, if it comes down to Clinton vs Trump......I will join you at the polls for Trump. And then I will sit back and hope the Republic survives.
Since we are in middle of a fourth turning it's entirely possible that Trump or Bernie will win the election. Since the whole point of a fourth turning is wiping away the dreck and failed/corrupted institutions of society it wouldn't surprise me if neither of our two political parties survives this election in anything resembling their current state and level of power. The elites in both parties are trying hard to remain in control, but don't seem to be doing so well at it.
Ultralight
2-17-16, 3:29pm
Since we are in middle of a fourth turning it's entirely possible that Trump or Bernie will win the election. Since the whole point of a fourth turning is wiping away the dreck and failed/corrupted institutions of society it wouldn't surprise me if neither of our two political parties survives this election in anything resembling their current state and level of power. The elites in both parties are trying hard to remain in control, but don't seem to be doing so well at it.
I am not that optimistic.
I think Billary or one of the regular repubs (Rubot, Canadian Cruz, or whoever) will ultimately win and it'll be business as usual.
Williamsmith
2-17-16, 4:12pm
What's a fourth turning?
If it's not tight after the third turning......then it's time for a fourth turning. It's an Appalachian torque wrench.
Ultralight
2-17-16, 4:14pm
If it's not tight after the third turning......then it's time for a fourth turning. It's an Appalachian torque wrench.
This sounds either made up or awesome or maybe both.
Williamsmith
2-17-16, 5:37pm
I'm beginning to think Trump is a genius and all his fourth grade gibberish is just an act. He is playing Cruz like a Stardivarius. Dividing the field and conquering it. He is highlighting Cruz's weaknesses. So Rubio pulls down Governor Haley's endorsement and closes the gap or maybe overtakes Cruz. If Cruz comes in third he is toast. Now it's the establishment against Trump. A clear choice and in an angry election year, Trump might win. And if it doesn't look like he gets the nomination then he threatens third party. GOP knows it can't win then so they give in. The key is all he has to do is get rid of Cruz. Should be easy.......nobody likes him anyway.
What's a fourth turning?
The fourth turning is a book written back in the 90's that posits that society moves in roughly 80 year cycles of four seasons. The fourth turning is the winter season where all the ineffective institutions get killed off allowing room for a spring rebirth of new institutions. Each generation, once they get old enough to be society's leaders leads with a different style based on what was happening when they were kids. The winter season happens when the people leading society were born after the last fourth turning so they dont understand the peril of being able to push society off a cliff, so to speak. There have been 3 fourth turnings in anerica. The revolution, the civil war and the great depression/WWII. Typically a fourth turning involves major economic destruction and total war.
The fourth turning is a book written back in the 90's that posits that society moves in roughly 80 year cycles of four seasons. The fourth turning is the winter season where all the ineffective institutions get killed off allowing room for a spring rebirth of new institutions. Each generation, once they get old enough to be society's leaders leads with a different style based on what was happening when they were kids. The winter season happens when the people leading society were born after the last fourth turning so they dont understand the peril of being able to push society off a cliff, so to speak. There have been 3 fourth turnings in anerica. The revolution, the civil war and the great depression/WWII. Typically a fourth turning involves major economic destruction and total war.
So they occur when people with no direct experience or memory of how bad things can get decide to dice with disaster to pursue ill-conceived social theories? Thereby creating a mess for future generations to clean up? Lather, rinse, repeat, forever?
That's bleak enough to have the ring of truth.
So they occur when people with no direct experience or memory of how bad things can get decide to dice with disaster to pursue ill-conceived social theories? Thereby creating a mess for future generations to clean up? Lather, rinse, repeat, forever?
That's bleak enough to have the ring of truth.
Basically, yeah. But not just social theories. Business theories too, like creating quadrillions of dollars of derivatives that are all probably going to fail in a massive cascading domino effect.
Basically, yeah. But not just social theories. Business theories too, like creating quadrillions of dollars of derivatives that are all probably going to fail in a massive cascading domino effect.
I can see that, too. A sort of generational theory of the superiority of old age and treachery over youth and enthusiasm.
My husband works for the hwy dept and 90% of them are for Donald Trump. They are the angry, white (for the most part) middle class.
They long for the days when life was more simple, when Dad worked (not mom) and supplied the family with all they needed.
No ISIS, no terrorists, there were jobs you could stay with for a lifetime and retire. Health care was affordable. They want their guns.
I am wondering how much of the country feels the same way? I see Trump saying what they want to hear and see him leading in the polls.
I do not see him being one for taking advice from his cabinet if he is elected. Scary times.
Ultralight
2-18-16, 10:26am
My husband works for the hwy dept and 90% of them are for Donald Trump. They are the angry, white (for the most part) middle class.
They long for the days when life was more simple, when Dad worked (not mom) and supplied the family with all they needed.
No ISIS, no terrorists, there were jobs you could stay with for a lifetime and retire. Health care was affordable. They want their guns.
I am wondering how much of the country feels the same way? I see Trump saying what they want to hear and see him leading in the polls.
I do not see him being one for taking advice from his cabinet if he is elected. Scary times.
Don't worry! Canadian Cruz just cruised ahead in national polls. So I am sure everything will be just fine. ;)
Williamsmith
2-18-16, 11:13am
Don't worry! Canadian Cruz just cruised ahead in national polls. So I am sure everything will be just fine. ;)
UA......Nikki Haley's endorsement of Rubio is going to put a nail in Jeb's coffin this Saturday and a kink in Canadian Cruz's colon. Rubio just might well be surging after he picks up Jeb Bush's outliers and sucks up those who thought they were Cruz supporters until they saw Haley standing beside Rubio and started fantasizing about what a great ticket that would make especially the contrast of youth versus worn out aged oligarchy of Mrs. It's My Turn.
So Im going to go out on a limb here and say that the horse race favors Rubio as he closes the gap ......something the polls are lagging behind on. Cruz has been distracted by Trump while Rubio is flanking him.
Trump is is not going to lose his quarter of the pie........Cruz is bullheaded and stubborn enough to drag it out to the bitter end. He's going to whip that horse raw on the way to the finish line. Rubio is polished and "electable". Cruz argues with everybody......well he's an attorney ain't he? The voters are now seeing why nobody in politics endorsed Cruz. And what his former college roommate says about him, "he's an asshole."
So I am cautiously optimistic that Saturday Cruz will get a torpedo to the engine room. What kind of VP do you think he would opt for. Scary! Haley kind of reminds me of A Margaret Thatcher archetype. Rubios stock is up.
Don't worry! Canadian Cruz just cruised ahead in national polls. So I am sure everything will be just fine. ;)
I would rather have Trump........Cruz is a scary guy. I can see him moving us back to the dark ages.
Ultralight
2-18-16, 11:49am
I can see him moving us back to the dark ages.
Americans need to learn a tough lesson about doing dumb stuff and how it has consequences. Maybe this would ultimately lead to a bright, shiny new age!
Americans need to learn a tough lesson about doing dumb stuff and how it has consequences. Maybe this would ultimately lead to a bright, shiny new age!
But doing dumb stuff doesn't have consequences. We all saw what happened to the bankers after they crashed the economy and needed $5 trillion in bailouts. They all got bonuses and kept their jobs and lived happily ever after.
But doing dumb stuff doesn't have consequences. We all saw what happened to the bankers after they crashed the economy and needed $5 trillion in bailouts. They all got bonuses and kept their jobs and lived happily ever after.
Pro Publica does a regular update on the status of the bailout. They say that thus far the Feds paid out $618 billion (of which the banks accounted for about 40%) and have collected $683 billion for a profit to the Treasury of about $65 billion.
https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/
Pro Publica does a regular update on the status of the bailout. They say that thus far the Feds paid out $618 billion (of which the banks accounted for about 40%) and have collected $683 billion for a profit to the Treasury of about $65 billion.
https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/
And QE was $4 trillion of purchases of bad debt from the banks.
And QE was $4 trillion of purchases of bad debt from the banks.
And the feds have made about $500 billion on that program since 2008. The "bad debt" they bought were largely securities the government had already guaranteed, or in the case of agency issues formally accepted the "moral hazard" at the outset of the crisis. I do think QE has some shortcomings from a monetary policy standpoint that we will pay for in future years, though.
There were plenty of private and public players in the 2008-2009 crisis. Simply identifying "banksters" as the scapegoat may play well politically, but it falls short as an explanation of what happened. I don't think you can reduce it, as Bernie Sanders has, to a sort of morality play.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-federal-reserve-profit-20150109-story.html
ApatheticNoMore
2-18-16, 1:40pm
And QE was $4 trillion of purchases of bad debt from the banks.
Yes Federal Reserve QE money is different than the money the article is talking about which is just TARP plus Fannie/Freddie money. Oh you hear a lot of arguments about QE, how it's not really money being given, it's money and not money, it's not just QE but Quantum Mechanics money, who can really say if it is or isn't money being given, all I can conclude is it seems to me someone had to have gotten that money (not all the banks although to a large extent, wasn't global QE also bailing out major corporations like Caterpillar?).
My husband works for the hwy dept and 90% of them are for Donald Trump. They are the angry, white (for the most part) middle class. They long for the days when life was more simple, when Dad worked (not mom) and supplied the family with all they needed. No ISIS, no terrorists, there were jobs you could stay with for a lifetime and retire. Health care was affordable.
this I do not get, isn't the highway dept government work and isn't government work about as stable a job as you can possibly have? (or is it different in Tennessee?). Ok I know nothing about the job conditions, but it seems those workers might actually know much LESS economic insecurity than pretty much everyone else. Have vast privilege they can't see (and I don't mean white privilege) This DOES NOT seem to be the angry white people falling out of the middle class or with precarious jobs, but people who have as much middle class job stability as anyone in the U.S. now. But it does make some sense, we want to see the Trump followers as those who are really suffering in this economy (and many white people are too, and some might have been middle class at one time, and they might be angry about it ...), but fascist collations are more often made up of more stable middle class types.
Americans need to learn a tough lesson about doing dumb stuff and how it has consequences. Maybe this would ultimately lead to a bright, shiny new age!
well there are several problems with this:
1) Cruz is NOT the obviously dumb choice as Cruz is NOT the one saying the most obviously dumb stuff of the R's by far. My first if imperfect path to get a handle on these dozens and dozens of Rs was the debates (which I often read). In the debates the most reasonable sounding R to me was Rand Paul, but he dropped out. And the runner up may be Cruz. I don't like to say that but .... perhaps it's a reality best acknowledged. So we have to analyze more than just what they say in the debates: Cruz makes the most reasonable points does not equal Cruz is a good choice. Cruz is SLICK, slick as an oil spill, he will SAY ANYTHING to get elected, but if you investigate his background he seems to be a serious theocrat and deeply personally dislikable and ethically questionable (just the "Carson dropped out" scandal alone). So you can't just believe what a politician says. Yes, yes, you would have thought that the Obama administration would have taught people that, but I don't think we're talking about the same voting pool :) I think it did teach some of the Obama voting pool that and they are trying to find a guy that seems incorruptible (Sanders).
2) I don't think bad consequences lead to people becoming smarter. W was reelected twice. The first W administration was about as bad a consequence as anyone could have wished and he got reelected (yes Kerry is an idiot but he was NOT W - that alone should have got him elected as the W administration was as much of a disaster as anyone could have wished for). I think if anything at the voting booth will lead to people becoming smarter it's electing better and better people, then the overall political environment will improve and the electorate will follow and become smarter (yes of course it also has to lead to some degree). I don't necessarily believe in a strict punishment model here so much as I believe in viscous and virtuous circles, viscous circles continue dragging downward, virtuous circles build upward.
ApatheticNoMore
2-18-16, 2:06pm
And the feds have made about $500 billion on that program since 2008.
even those who paid back money were allowed to do dubious stuff, like get money from the feds at a lower interest rate, invest it right in treasuries at a higher interest rate, and keep the difference. If the masses of Americans in debt were given that kind of deal maybe they could pay back their loans easier as well .... by the magic of free money.
And the feds have made about $500 billion on that program since 2008. The "bad debt" they bought were largely securities the government had already guaranteed, or in the case of agency issues formally accepted the "moral hazard" at the outset of the crisis. I do think QE has some shortcomings from a monetary policy standpoint that we will pay for in future years, though.
There were plenty of private and public players in the 2008-2009 crisis. Simply identifying "banksters" as the scapegoat may play well politically, but it falls short as an explanation of what happened. I don't think you can reduce it, as Bernie Sanders has, to a sort of morality play.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-federal-reserve-profit-20150109-story.html
So, by my math and that stories' numbers the fed earned approximately 2.19% on all the QE purchased debt, at least for the year 2014. It'd be interesting to know what the face rate was on all the QE debt so that we could learn just how much of it actually went bad. In other words, if the average rate on all the QE debt was 4.38% then half of it, or $2 trillion really was garbage and in fact a gift from the fed to the banks. If, on the other hand, the rate on all the QE purchased debt was close to the 2.19% that the fed earned then there wasn't much of a gift to bankers, but that would also beg the question, what exactly was the point of QE.
So, by my math and that stories' numbers the fed earned approximately 2.19% on all the QE purchased debt, at least for the year 2014.
That yield isn't all that bad in the current environment. Ten year treasuries, for instance, are yielding about 1.76% at the moment.
QE, for all it's faults, was instituted for monetary reasons when the Fed ran out of rate-setting ammunition.
And I'm not saying the banks are completely blameless. I'm saying the crisis was a perfect storm of bad decisions by government, the financial industry and the great American public. Scapegoating one particular group adds nothing to an understanding of what happened. No villains are required, unless you've got a political agenda to sell.
Who was it who said "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity"?
If the bankers are just as stupid as the naive public who took out loans they can't afford, that would seem to be a good reason for better banking regulations.
That yield isn't all that bad in the current environment. Ten year treasuries, for instance, are yielding about 1.76% at the moment
It's true that treasury rates are that low but if the debts that were bought with QE had higher rates than it's irrelevant to my point.
Williamsmith
2-18-16, 4:12pm
That yield isn't all that bad in the current environment. Ten year treasuries, for instance, are yielding about 1.76% at the moment.
QE, for all it's faults, was instituted for monetary reasons when the Fed ran out of rate-setting ammunition.
And I'm not saying the banks are completely blameless. I'm saying the crisis was a perfect storm of bad decisions by government, the financial industry and the great American public. Scapegoating one particular group adds nothing to an understanding of what happened. No villains are required, unless you've got a political agenda to sell.
Who was it who said "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity"?
You make Theft By Deception sound very innocent. If someone sold you a Rolex watch but you found out later it was a counterfeit .......would that be theft?
It's true that treasury rates are that low but if the debts that were bought with QE had higher rates than it's irrelevant to my point.
Like any other securities transaction, past prices and yields are irrelevant to what a willing buyer pays a willing seller. It was my understanding that the Fed purchased securities at market. Higher rate paper would have been sold to the Fed at a discount. Whoever chose to sell securities to the Fed got the market value on that particular day, realizing a gain or loss based on what they originally paid. The intention was to generate liquidity in the economy, not to either help or hurt bankers or "Wall Street". Basically, it was one step up from simply printing money.
You make Theft By Deception sound very innocent. If someone sold you a Rolex watch but you found out later it was a counterfeit .......would that be theft?
Not innocent, but part of a larger situation. People lied about income and assets to get mortgages to buy houses they couldn't afford. Mortgage originators didn't apply due diligence in making the loans. Government agencies pushed banks to make loans to "underserved" borrowers. Banks packaged loans into securities, and government agencies guaranteed them and investors bought them, all with inadequate due diligence. Then the underlying asset, housing, failed to appreciate in price quickly enough to keep the process going. It's hard for me to see dastardly villains and innocent victims here.
If someone offers to sell you a Rolex for ten bucks, and it turns out to be a Rolecks when you buy it without looking it over, are you completely blameless?
Like any other securities transaction, past prices and yields are irrelevant to what a willing buyer pays a willing seller. It was my understanding that the Fed purchased securities at market. Higher rate paper would have been sold to the Fed at a discount. Whoever chose to sell securities to the Fed got the market value on that particular day, realizing a gain or loss based on what they originally paid. The intention was to generate liquidity in the economy, not to either help or hurt bankers or "Wall Street". Basically, it was one step up from simply printing money.
I guess I haven't managed to make myself clear. What I want to know is how much of the debt the fed bought from the banks has gone into default. Was it a negligible amount, half, two thirds, how much. That amount matters because it's appalling to think about trillions of dollars being printed to purchase worhthless "assets" from the banks at full face value. And frankly, absent any contrary proof, it seems reasonable to assume that it was a majority of that debt.
We'll probably never know because the fed does not operate with transparency, as evidenced by the extreme reaction whenever anyone, such as Ron Paul, suggests that they should be audited.
Williamsmith
2-20-16, 10:26pm
The angry white middleclass claimed another victory tonight in South Carolina. It looks good for Trump in Nevada. Cruz took it on the chin.....it's all downhill from here. Tomorrow is the Daytona 500. Lots of celebrating going on at Bubbas house tomorrow.
Williamsmith
2-24-16, 9:32am
Well Mr. Trump took it to the house in Nevada getting somewhere in the mid forty percent of the vote. That's a thumping of Cruz and Rubio. It is fitting that the state most known for its debauchery by the religious right handed Cruz his latest humbling defeat.
Really the angry white middleclass should thank Cruz for the newest Trump victory. For all the talk of purity, consistency and honesty, his campaign has failed to live up to its promises. And his followers are the Christian Right.......they are the least forgiving people in the world when it comes to mistakes.
No surprise, Cruz doesnt have a friend in the government either. They all spurned him early in his career and he has lashed out at them and his own anger turns people off. It does not mix well with his holier than thou attitude. So on to the next rout. Trump is nearly unstoppable at this point.
Another Budweiser please.
Ultralight
2-24-16, 9:48am
Trump! Trump! Trump!
Only 9 more months of this................
Mr. Trump seems to have done surprisingly well with Latino voters, even running against two Latino opponents. It's nice to see at least one party not enslaved by identity politics.
Perhaps Williamsmith's "angry white middleclass" narrative is too narrow.
Williamsmith
2-24-16, 11:00am
All those Latino votes were employees of the Las Vegas elites. When choosing ....choose where your bread is buttered. In California and Arizona, New Mexico and Florida........but by then it will not matter. I still think Cruz might just lose Texas. Senior Cruz es el perdedor.
catherine
2-24-16, 11:44am
Did you hear his precious quote in his acceptance speech--"I love the poorly educated!" He is unbelievable. Really, what a P.T. Barnum. I think I might just go read The Art of the Deal for some insights on how to get a stampede of new clients.
Ultralight
2-24-16, 11:50am
Did you hear his precious quote in his acceptance speech--"I love the poorly educated!" He is unbelievable. Really, what a P.T. Barnum. I think I might just go read The Art of the Deal for some insights on how to get a stampede of new clients.
Trump is the perfect politician for Americans. He really is. I am highly likely to vote for him if he makes it to the general election.
Did you hear his precious quote in his acceptance speech--"I love the poorly educated!" He is unbelievable. Really, what a P.T. Barnum. I think I might just go read The Art of the Deal for some insights on how to get a stampede of new clients.
Don't you love the poorly educated?
The Donald's heart must have been full of love that night. He expressed it for evangelicals, Hispanics, Guantanamo and pretty much everyone in his extended family. It sort of reminded me of an Oscar acceptance speech, except perhaps less overtly political.
Ultralight
2-24-16, 5:06pm
Don't you love the poorly educated?
The Donald's heart must have been full of love that night. He expressed it for evangelicals, Hispanics, Guantanamo and pretty much everyone in his extended family. It sort of reminded me of an Oscar acceptance speech, except perhaps less overtly political.
Really zingin' 'em today, Buckley!
ApatheticNoMore
2-24-16, 5:40pm
The right to be angry and take it out on anyone and everyone unrelated to the source of that anger (aka voting for the guy who advocates killing Muslims with pig blood drenched bullets), and to get an amazing pass for this, that no one else gets, seems itself an aspect of white privilege.
The right to be angry and take it out on anyone and everyone unrelated to the source of that anger (aka voting for the guy who advocates killing Muslims with pig blood drenched bullets), and to get an amazing pass for this, that no one else gets, seems itself an aspect of white privilege.
I wouldn't call it white privilege so much as immunity by repetition. Much like Joe Biden saying so many imbecilic things that people just sort of say "That's just Joe talking" and let it go, Trump has learned that if you insult everything on two legs, the insults over time lose their ability to shock (especially at a time when people are becoming tired of a sort of politically correct weaponization of offense-taking). He's positioned himself as a sort of Don Rickles of American politics.
Williamsmith
2-25-16, 9:06am
The white angry middleclass knows it's coming. The silence is deafening. The establishment has gone past crisis mode on to full on freak. They are staring right at a complete humiliation and repudiation of their weak punk *ss politics. Trump is poised to take all and not leave any room for a convention debate.
Bush failed them miserably. Cruz won't go away after Iowa pumped him full of pride.....he's going down and taking whoever he can with him. The establishment is not surprised and more than a little pissed.
So what's a party to do? It can't wait until after Super Tuesday, by then it will be too late. Rubio is the only great Cuban hope with which to hang your hat on and he can deliver Florida if.......by Tuesday somehow they can create the illusion that he can get enough delegates to keep Trump from running the table and they have hope going into the convention.
Will Kasich be willingly to hang up his campaign for the promise of VP? You betcha. And deliver Ohio.... Is it wiser to ask Carson to quit or ask him to stay to suck votes away from Cruz? That's a tough one but I think they have to go all in for the river draw. Carson must endorse Rubio also.
There it is....Pickett's Charge. The angry white middleclass is waiting to see the whites of their eyes.
Ultralight
2-25-16, 9:33am
I hope Rubot does not pull off a comeback.
Trump! Trump! Trump!
The white angry middleclass knows it's coming. The silence is deafening. The establishment has gone past crisis mode on to full on freak. They are staring right at a complete humiliation and repudiation of their weak punk *ss politics. Trump is poised to take all and not leave any room for a convention debate.
Bush failed them miserably. Cruz won't go away after Iowa pumped him full of pride.....he's going down and taking whoever he can with him. The establishment is not surprised and more than a little pissed.
So what's a party to do? It can't wait until after Super Tuesday, by then it will be too late. Rubio is the only great Cuban hope with which to hang your hat on and he can deliver Florida if.......by Tuesday somehow they can create the illusion that he can get enough delegates to keep Trump from running the table and they have hope going into the convention.
Will Kasich be willingly to hang up his campaign for the promise of VP? You betcha. And deliver Ohio.... Is it wiser to ask Carson to quit or ask him to stay to suck votes away from Cruz? That's a tough one but I think they have to go all in for the river draw. Carson must endorse Rubio also.
There it is....Pickett's Charge. The angry white middleclass is waiting to see the whites of their eyes.
While I appreciate your purple prose, I will decline your offer to panic at this time.
There are many votes yet to be cast and delegates to be allocated. As the GOP herd thins, it will be harder for Trump to hide in a fog of frothy rhetoric without being forced to say what he actually stands for. From his utterances to date, he thinks more like a Democrat than a Republican on a number of issues, and that will emerge.
I hope Rubot does not pull off a comeback.
Trump! Trump! Trump!
I don't know which I fear more: The Donald setting the conservative cause back a generation, or four years of your taunts.
Ultralight
2-25-16, 10:07am
While I appreciate your purple prose, I will decline your offer to panic at this time.
There are many votes yet to be cast and delegates to be allocated. As the GOP herd thins, it will be harder for Trump to hide in a fog of frothy rhetoric without being forced to say what he actually stands for. From his utterances to date, he thinks more like a Democrat than a Republican on a number of issues, and that will emerge.
I hope you are wrong; I fear you are right.
I hope you are wrong; I fear you are right.
Tonight's debate should be a pretty good indication. If the non-lunatic fringe goes after Trump instead of one another, I will maintain some hope. Make him explain his fondness for Vladimir Putin or Single Payer Healthcare. Ask how it's possible for a "winner" to lose money running Casinos. Elaborate on some of his more memorable statements. I think the guy's vulnerable.
I'd like to see Trumps tax returns. Last I noticed, he said he would make them public when Hillary revealed her emails, which I read as a stall tactic. Could be a good debate topic if he paid as little as one could suspect and he's hinting at new taxes on the rich.
Williamsmith
2-25-16, 11:53am
Tonight's debate should be a pretty good indication. If the non-lunatic fringe goes after Trump instead of one another, I will maintain some hope. Make him explain his fondness for Vladimir Putin or Single Payer Healthcare. Ask how it's possible for a "winner" to lose money running Casinos. Elaborate on some of his more memorable statements. I think the guy's vulnerable.
Every time some pundits report what a terrible debate showing trump has......his numbers go up. The angry white middleclass love Vladimir Putin's in your face politics. They want somebody to stand up to the rest of the world and not bow and kiss their rings. What could be worse than the Obamination care we have now. Single payer doesn't scare an angry white blue collar struggling worker who can't afford any real illness or they will lose their jobs. Casinos are wildly popular among the middleclass and poor. Everybody knows organized crime is involved in the casino industry and I'm not referring to politicians or am I. The angry white middleclass loves all his offensive words......don't wait for anyone to abandon him. You better be figuring out how to overtake him.
Let me me know when that light of hope dims to where you have to squint to see it......
Tonight's debate should be a pretty good indication. If the non-lunatic fringe goes after Trump instead of one another, I will maintain some hope. Make him explain his fondness for Vladimir Putin or Single Payer Healthcare. Ask how it's possible for a "winner" to lose money running Casinos. Elaborate on some of his more memorable statements. I think the guy's vulnerable.
I plan to be front and center (of the TV) for tonight's debate hoping for that very outcome. Sadly however, I'm guessing Cruz will try to grab a little home field advantage and will try hard to lampoon Trump, but teflon Don won't see much stick. Rubio will try to work in lots of sound bites of Cruz flip-flopping and hope to pick any Trump voters Cruz offends if Donald falters. Trump will not get pressed to reveal any substantial position on any subject, but will instead spend most of the evening interrupting Cruz and Rubio so they won't get to reveal anything substantial, either. Kasich will have time to make notes for his campaign suspension speech. Carson will have time to think about replacing Adam in the Sistine Chapel.
Williamsmith
2-25-16, 11:58am
I'd like to see Trumps tax returns. Last I noticed, he said he would make them public when Hillary revealed her emails, which I read as a stall tactic. Could be a good debate topic if he paid as little as one could suspect and he's hinting at new taxes on the rich.
Im sorry Rogar........if Trump got away with tax evasion or legal loopholes....all that does is give him street Cred. The WAMC can spin any so called vulnerability into a strength. No, it's past time to try take take him down. Someone needs to win the hearts of the American people if it's not too late.
Williamsmith
2-25-16, 12:48pm
I plan to be front and center (of the TV) for tonight's debate hoping for that very outcome. Sadly however, I'm guessing Cruz will try to grab a little home field advantage and will try hard to lampoon Trump, but teflon Don won't see much stick. Rubio will try to work in lots of sound bites of Cruz flip-flopping and hope to pick any Trump voters Cruz offends if Donald falters. Trump will not get pressed to reveal any substantial position on any subject, but will instead spend most of the evening interrupting Cruz and Rubio so they won't get to reveal anything substantial, either. Kasich will have time to make notes for his campaign suspension speech. Carson will have time to think about replacing Adam in the Sistine Chapel.
Gregg, I don't want to leave you out. CNN is ginning up tonight's debate like it was an Ali - Frazier rematch. I guess that's the business but the truth is.......the debate matters little. By Tuesday, any bump Cruz or Rubio get will have evaporated. They are actually talking about "mayhem" happening. C'mon. I think it is going to be underwhelming.
ApatheticNoMore
2-25-16, 1:00pm
Trump is not for single payer. The level of ignorance of the actual positions Trump has taken is off the charts (I know issues are an epiphenomena to the Trump phenomena, he's not about ideas to be sure. But really pretending Trump is your guy if you want single payer is simply WRONG). Here's the thing: Trump came out for single payer once long ago (so there is a slight amount of historical truth to that), but has since come out against it in the debates (didn't anyone follow any of the debates? I admit I couldn't stomach them all but some ... I know these are weasly unstrustable politicians and narcissists, but what they say is still a better guide to what they will do, than making stuff up out of whole cloth.).
It was asked as a debate question whether Trump favors single payer like Sanders or something and he does not. And yet people think Trump is the guy who is going to be fighting for single payer (even Sanders has limited ability to implement it without Congress, but he is for it, he has a section on his website on issues called "Medicare for All", so make no mistake he had made it one of his issues). Someone who waffles on their positions like Trump is not going to put up a fight for single payer (they will probably just leave the status quo - that is the ACA in place, whatever they say, that is the path of least resistance for an issues they seem to care so little about anyway as to be constantly waffling on).
Ultralight
2-25-16, 1:01pm
If Trump was for single payer I'd vote for him, no doubt about it!
Trump is not for single payer. The level of ignorance of the actual positions Trump has taken is off the charts (I know issues are an epiphenomena to the Trump phenomena, he's not about ideas to be sure. But really pretending Trump is your guy if you want single payer is simply WRONG). Here's the thing: Trump came out for single payer once long ago (so there is a slight amount of historical truth to that), but has since come out against it in the debates (didn't anyone follow any of the debates? I admit I couldn't stomach them all but some ... I know these are weasly unstrustable politicians and narcissists, but what they say is still a better guide to what they will do, than making stuff up out of whole cloth.).
It was asked as a debate question whether Trump favors single payer like Sanders or something and he does not. And yet people think Trump is the guy who is going to be fighting for single payer (even Sanders has limited ability to implement it without Congress, but he is for it, he has a section on his website on issues called "Medicare for All", so make no mistake he had made it one of his issues). Someone who waffles on their positions like Trump is not going to put up a fight for single payer (they will probably just leave the status quo - that is the ACA in place, whatever they say, that is the path of least resistance for an issues they seem to care so little about anyway as to be constantly waffling on).
Trump is a salesman - right now for Donald Trump. He always plays to the audience in front of him so it's really hard to say what his actual stand is on anything - except Donald Trump.
Trump is not for single payer. The level of ignorance of the actual positions Trump has taken is off the charts (I know issues are an epiphenomena to the Trump phenomena, he's not about ideas to be sure. But really pretending Trump is your guy if you want single payer is simply WRONG). Here's the thing: Trump came out for single payer once long ago (so there is a slight amount of historical truth to that), but has since come out against it in the debates (didn't anyone follow any of the debates? I admit I couldn't stomach them all but some ... I know these are weasly unstrustable politicians and narcissists, but what they say is still a better guide to what they will do, than making stuff up out of whole cloth.).
It was asked as a debate question whether Trump favors single payer like Sanders or something and he does not. And yet people think Trump is the guy who is going to be fighting for single payer (even Sanders has limited ability to implement it without Congress, but he is for it, he has a section on his website on issues called "Medicare for All", so make no mistake he had made it one of his issues). Someone who waffles on their positions like Trump is not going to put up a fight for single payer (they will probably just leave the status quo - that is the ACA in place, whatever they say, that is the path of least resistance for an issues they seem to care so little about anyway as to be constantly waffling on).
He has supported it explicitly in the past, and has spoken approvingly of the Canadian and Scottish systems. Lately, he has become more coy when called on it, vaguely saying "We're gonna take care of everybody".
Gregg, I don't want to leave you out. CNN is ginning up tonight's debate like it was an Ali - Frazier rematch. I guess that's the business but the truth is.......the debate matters little. By Tuesday, any bump Cruz or Rubio get will have evaporated. They are actually talking about "mayhem" happening. C'mon. I think it is going to be underwhelming.
No worries Williamsmith. I tried to make my prediction sound like it would be gut wrenchingly boring, but you're right: it could actually be much worse.
Teacher Terry
2-25-16, 3:28pm
I read that Trump inherited a ton of $ from his Dad and if he had just let it sit and lived off the interest he would be much richer then he is now. So not a good businessman.
I read that Trump inherited a ton of $ from his Dad and if he had just let it sit and lived off the interest he would be much richer then he is now. So not a good businessman.
There's an old joke:
How do you make a billion bucks in real estate?
Start with two billion.
ApatheticNoMore
2-25-16, 5:02pm
He has supported it explicitly in the past, and has spoken approvingly of the Canadian and Scottish systems. Lately, he has become more coy when called on it, vaguely saying "We're gonna take care of everybody"
people see what they want to see, I mean it is foolish to think Trump is going to somehow implement single payer based on this:
Trump:
As far as single payer, it works in Canada. It works incredibly well in Scotland. It could have worked in a different age, which is the age you're talking about here. What I'd like to see is a private system without the artificial lines around every state.
it reminds me of people thinking Obama was a lot of things he was not, in those cases where there was plain evidence from his own voting record and his debates that he was not. While it is foolish to believe everything politicians promise, it is even more foolish to think they are somehow going to promote single payer which would upset a vast array of entrenched interests, it is an uphill fight, when they explicitly say they will not.
Williamsmith
2-26-16, 9:33am
Wolf Blitzer needed a whistle and a yellow flag last night. Many opportunities to penalize for unsportsmanlike conduct. Clearly Rubio and Cruz got the memo. Mend fences and join resources to attack Trump. Carson had the best seat in the house by far. Kasich took the high road which is to say he brought a knife to a gun fight. He gained some style points and remained dignified throughout.
What was gained? Trump, for all the attacks didn't seem to break a sweat. Rubio and Cruz emptied their ammunition and went full out. They are a desperate pair. While it was all entertaining, will it truly have any effect on Tuesdays voters?
Suppose Rubio and Cruz have an agreement. If Cruz can manage to claim his own state and capture all the delegates, not just a portion......I think Cruz has the green light to make a run and Rubio will bow out. If not, Cruz really has no path and will be forced to bow out for a Rubio run. It's got to be one or the other if Trump is to be blocked.
Last nights debate was a fight for second place. I thought Rubio showed the most passion and preparation, Cruz has worn out his right middle and index finger pounding them on the podium when its a question you might see on the final exam. It's pretty bad when your own state is up for grabs and you claim to be such a great politician. If he does pull Texas out of his rear it will be an entertaining Ides of March.
After all that yelling.....It seems all the Democrats have to do is stand by with their brooms and sweep what is left of the pieces into the sewer.
Ultralight
2-26-16, 9:43am
How did or will this effect the polling numbers?
Williamsmith
2-26-16, 9:56am
How did or will this effect the polling numbers?
I don't think polls can keep up with the fast news cycle. They seem to lag in my opinion and only have predictive value when the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of one candidate. They are certainly not as scientific as say weather forecasting and you know how that goes. But it fills up large time gaps for 24 hour news channels and so they are widely reported and there are many of them. Really great for talk radio too. Just not of any value except to give Trump something to brag about.
It's got to be one or the other if Trump is to be blocked.
After all that yelling.....It seems all the Democrats have to do is stand by with their brooms and sweep what is left of the pieces into the sewer.
I think you're right about Cruz/Rubio. Polling at about 35% of GOP primary voters, Trump will not look like such an electoral juggernaut against one main opponent. Since Hillary seems all but inevitable (except in the unlikely event that the Justice department proceeds with some sort of indictment), it seems like Rubio would be in the best position to run against her. Otherwise, I'll be praying for an obstructionist congress.
Williamsmith
2-26-16, 3:34pm
The WAMC is thrilled to have Governor Chris Christie's timely endorsement and support for Donald Trump. Is this not the best time to be a political cartoonist or what?
Ultralight
2-26-16, 3:46pm
The WAMC is thrilled to have Governor Chris Christie's timely endorsement and support for Donald Trump. Is this not the best time to be a political cartoonist or what?
This did not really happen.
I watched part of the debate last night by accident, the only one I've seen. Wow.
Aujourd'hui, je suis un Québécois...
The WAMC is thrilled to have Governor Chris Christie's timely endorsement and support for Donald Trump. Is this not the best time to be a political cartoonist or what?
This did not really happen.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-idUSKCN0VZ2I7
Yes, yes it did...
Ultralight
2-26-16, 4:54pm
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-idUSKCN0VZ2I7
Yes, yes it did...
SWEEEEEEET! :)
ApatheticNoMore
2-26-16, 5:03pm
I watched part of the debate last night by accident, the only one I've seen. Wow.
Aujourd'hui, je suis un Québécois...
Moi aussi
ok my French is not very good ... maybe I'll just flee to Mexico, it's closer, unless they build that wall. I heard last night was really bad, I didn't see it. But yea when you have on stage a bunch of people who should REALLY REALLY REALLY should not be President ... mon Dieu
But yea when you have on stage a bunch of people who should REALLY REALLY REALLY should not be President ... mon Dieu
I thought at first it was a Saturday Night Live skit or something.
ok my French is not very good ...
I've kept mine up since 5th Grade, turns out its extra bonus points on the form if you want to move to Canuckistan.
freshstart
2-26-16, 5:18pm
c'est merde pour moi then because despite taking it for 7 yrs je rappelle rien
Ultralight
2-26-16, 5:23pm
Enough with the French talk. I suppose you all say "garage" too!
Enough with the French talk. I suppose you all say "garage" too!
"Barn" or "carriage house". The "garage" here is known as "the workshop", let's keep that straight.
freshstart
2-26-16, 5:32pm
I say gare-age or car park like the British
The WAMC is thrilled to have Governor Chris Christie's timely endorsement and support for Donald Trump. Is this not the best time to be a political cartoonist or what?
is he trying out for VP?
The WAMC is thrilled to have Governor Chris Christie's timely endorsement and support for Donald Trump. Is this not the best time to be a political cartoonist or what?
That was reeaaally interesting. I guess no hard feelings on CCs part about DT's totally usurping Christie's "Tell It Like It Is" message.
Yes, I would love to see a good cartoon (or SNL skit) right about now!
Ultralight
2-26-16, 6:24pm
"Barn" or "carriage house". The "garage" here is known as "the workshop", let's keep that straight.
Whatever! I call it a car hole. No French sounds in that!
Whatever! I call it a car hole. No French sounds in that!
Thanks to our kids dumping stuff throughout all their moves, DH doesn't call our garage a car hole, he calls it a s**t hole.
Ultralight
2-26-16, 6:34pm
:laff:
Thanks to our kids dumping stuff throughout all their moves, DH doesn't call our garage a car hole, he calls it a s**t hole.
LMBO
Williamsmith
2-28-16, 8:50pm
Senator Jeff Sessions endorses Trump. One more nail in the Cruz coffin. It's getting harder and harder to see how Cruz can pull off a delegate sweep in Texas. Sessions is someone Cruz has worked closely with. Just more evidence that Cruz doesn't get the respect of his peers. Trump continues his momentum and the WAMC is one more step towards reclaiming their piece of the American Dream.
Good, Cruz ads started on tv here this weekend. Creeps me out. Also Rubio with his only point "I am the one who can beat Hillary".
Williamsmith
2-28-16, 10:41pm
Good, Cruz ads started on tv here this weekend. Creeps me out. Also Rubio with his only point "I am the one who can beat Hillary".
Dont forget, "Trump is a con artist." I lost a lot of respect for Rubio since the debates. Now all he does is insult Trump. What the establishment cant seem to fathom, is the fact that it is not about Trump. It is about the hatred for the ruling class, the career politicians, the suckers up to the lobbyists. It doesn't matter what inconsistencies they find, or changes of mind, or tax "bombshells". The WAMC is going to vote for Trump simply to drive the Republican Party to ashes. Using such an offensive imbecile to do it is like putting the cherry on top of the sundae. Tuesday could be judgement day. Hillary is shaking in her little Maoist pantsuit.
Williamsmith
3-2-16, 8:32am
Well the WAMC has brought the Republican Party to a fork in the road and neither option seems agreeable. Get behind Trump in his inevitable nomination of their party or continue to disavow him and abandon the brand and strike off into the night with the remnant of the old GOP with which to start a third party. Kind of like the Balltimore Ravens version of the old Cleveland Browns franchise of the NFL. Ironic.
Is there too much pride to swallow or too much crow to eat? There is still a mathematical chance that Cruz or Rubio or Kasich for that matter could make a run. But the same mathematical chance that my lottery ticket is a big winner. So will some sacrifice for the good of the party and coelescence behind one challenger? It is certainly almost too late for that. The time was after the last debate. Or even earlier.
It appears they will settle for a last stand March 15th. The WAMC will gleefully come out and vote savoring a chance to issue the coup de gras to the party head.
It is instructive to watch the Republican Party implode because of its inability to come together for a purposeful cause. Whereas, the Democrats, have seemingly won by simply staying out of their way. Satisfied to let nitwits have the headlines.
What often happens when several people fight over a resource that no one can fully possess......the resource is destroyed and no one gets any of it.
Well the WAMC has brought the Republican Party to a fork in the road and neither option seems agreeable. Get behind Trump in his inevitable nomination of their party or continue to disavow him and abandon the brand and strike off into the night with the remnant of the old GOP with which to start a third party. Kind of like the Balltimore Ravens version of the old Cleveland Browns franchise of the NFL. Ironic.
Is there too much pride to swallow or too much crow to eat? There is still a mathematical chance that Cruz or Rubio or Kasich for that matter could make a run. But the same mathematical chance that my lottery ticket is a big winner. So will some sacrifice for the good of the party and coelescence behind one challenger? It is certainly almost too late for that. The time was after the last debate. Or even earlier.
It appears they will settle for a last stand March 15th. The WAMC will gleefully come out and vote savoring a chance to issue the coup de gras to the party head.
It is instructive to watch the Republican Party implode because of its inability to come together for a purposeful cause. Whereas, the Democrats, have seemingly won by simply staying out of their way. Satisfied to let nitwits have the headlines.
What often happens when several people fight over a resource that no one can fully possess......the resource is destroyed and no one gets any of it.
I am mostly pleased with Trump's victories. Though I am disappointed that he lost Texas to that Canadian.
But with that said, I don't think it is too late for a March 15th turnaround for the GOP. But this time I won't make any confident predictions. haha
It is instructive to watch the Republican Party implode because of its inability to come together for a purposeful cause. Whereas, the Democrats, have seemingly won by simply staying out of their way. Satisfied to let nitwits have the headlines.
What often happens when several people fight over a resource that no one can fully possess......the resource is destroyed and no one gets any of it.
Don't most of the GOP candidates believe they are God's Gift to us? At least Trump, Cruz, and Carson do. You're right, Williamsmith, the resource that no one can fully possess in this case is power, and they're chasing it like a kitten playing with a flashlight instead of looking at what's best for the party, or the country.
I am mostly pleased with Trump's victories. Though I am disappointed that he lost Texas to that Canadian.
But with that said, I don't think it is too late for a March 15th turnaround for the GOP. But this time I won't make any confident predictions. haha
I think the best I can hope for now is that nobody has enough delegates to win outright and we head into a brokered convention. Under the rules, about half the delegates are freed up in the second vote and about 80% by the third vote. I'd prefer Rubio to Cruz, but either polls respectably against Clinton, who I would regard as only a slightly lesser tragedy for the country than Trump.
Don't most of the GOP candidates believe they are God's Gift to us? At least Trump, Cruz, and Carson do. You're right, Williamsmith, the resource that no one can fully possess in this case is power, and they're chasing it like a kitten playing with a flashlight instead of looking at what's best for the party, or the country.
I suppose a coronation march, impeded slightly by the antics of a genial fanatic, would appear to be more orderly.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 10:28am
I think the best I can hope for now is that nobody has enough delegates to win outright and we head into a brokered convention. Under the rules, about half the delegates are freed up in the second vote and about 80% by the third vote. I'd prefer Rubio to Cruz, but either polls respectably against Clinton, who I would regard as only a slightly lesser tragedy for the country than Trump.
Would that demoralize the Trumpers?
I suppose a coronation march, impeded slightly by the antics of a genial fanatic, would appear to be more orderly.
I'd say so. That's my preference at least, maybe because of my Anglo roots, or my interest in Shakespeare.
I'd say so. That's my preference at least, maybe because of my Anglo roots, or my interest in Shakespeare.
There are certain similarities to Richard III in the Democratic race.
Would that demoralize the Trumpers?
I would think so. Many might stay home, but that would still be a better, more honorable outcome than the alternative.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 10:52am
Do you think "the people" would be like this?
"We voted for Trump and now you elitists have removed the man we voted for because you think we are too dumb to pick our own candidates! Screw you!"
Williamsmith
3-2-16, 10:54am
I think the best I can hope for now is that nobody has enough delegates to win outright and we head into a brokered convention. Under the rules, about half the delegates are freed up in the second vote and about 80% by the third vote. I'd prefer Rubio to Cruz, but either polls respectably against Clinton, who I would regard as only a slightly lesser tragedy for the country than Trump.
Speaking off the record on my own thread:
I have been making fun of this whole process but it is really getting scary. I may be witnessing the hostile takeover of the Republican Party by a power hungry New Yorker. And possibly, my only other option might be to vote for another maybe more progressive power hungry New Yorker. Both have no problem with shredding the Constitution to get what they want. A brokered convention is undoubtedly the course of action The establishment has chosen but I fear they are making a huge mistake by not consolidating behind Cruz. He could possibly stop the madness. And I would be willing to overlook his zealous faults.
There are certain similarities to Richard III in the Democratic race.
I was thinking more like King Lear.
Speaking off the record on my own thread:
I have been making fun of this whole process but it is really getting scary. I may be witnessing the hostile takeover of the Republican Party by a power hungry New Yorker. And possibly, my only other option might be to vote for another maybe more progressive power hungry New Yorker. Both have no problem with shredding the Constitution to get what they want. A brokered convention is undoubtedly the course of action The establishment has chosen but I fear they are making a huge mistake by not consolidating behind Cruz. He could possibly stop the madness. And I would be willing to overlook his zealous faults.
I think you're right. I would have preferred Rubio, but would gratefully take Cruz over Trump or Clinton.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 11:07am
Speaking off the record on my own thread:
I have been making fun of this whole process but it is really getting scary. I may be witnessing the hostile takeover of the Republican Party by a power hungry New Yorker. And possibly, my only other option might be to vote for another maybe more progressive power hungry New Yorker. Both have no problem with shredding the Constitution to get what they want. A brokered convention is undoubtedly the course of action The establishment has chosen but I fear they are making a huge mistake by not consolidating behind Cruz. He could possibly stop the madness. And I would be willing to overlook his zealous faults.
Don't worry yourself too much about their games of thrones.
My plan is to just keep muddling through life. You and most people will do the same.
Do you think "the people" would be like this?
"We voted for Trump and now you elitists have removed the man we voted for because you think we are too dumb to pick our own candidates! Screw you!"
"The people" in this case, represent about 35-45% of the primary voters, not a popular mandate. Think of them as the "some of the people all of the time" contingent. I'm generally pretty flexible on ideology, but Trump is beyond the pall. If the party needs to alienate the Trumpites to preserve it's core values, that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Lincoln entered the 1860 convention with a minority of delegates, and was nominated on the third vote. I'll take comfort in that precedent.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 11:16am
If the party needs to alienate the Trumpites to preserve it's core values, that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Strange times, these...
Williamsmith
3-2-16, 11:16am
Don't worry yourself too much about their games of thrones.
My plan is to just keep muddling through life. You and most people will do the same.
With all due respect UA, I have always and will always have a greater expectation for my life than the word, "muddle" would imply.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 11:19am
With all due respect UA, I have always and will always have a greater expectation for my life than the word, "muddle" would imply.
I admire that about you. I think you have a mental and emotional resilience that I just don't have.
ApatheticNoMore
3-2-16, 12:07pm
Whether I muddle through life sometimes doesn't even seem the important thing. What difference does it really make in the scheme of things. I lack the narcissism of a Trump I guess. My anger at politics sometimes it about whatever economic or political issues I may face muddling through life (but even then often not directly so but rather indirectly) but sometimes has very little to do with whether I muddle through life better or worse. I was angry for W for instance for all the people he insured wouldn't muddle through life (all the Iraqis killed in the war). I loath Trump for all the Muslim and other Americans whose lives he will make more difficult. But I will muddle through life. Sometimes all I can wonder to that is: who cares? But I'm not actively suicidal or anything needless to say, I do preserve my life from day to day.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 12:12pm
Whether I muddle through life sometimes doesn't even seem the important thing. What difference does it really make in the scheme of things. I lack the narcissism of a Trump I guess. My anger at politics sometimes it about whatever economic or political issues I may face muddling through life (but even then often not directly so but rather indirectly) but sometimes has very little to do with whether I muddle through life better or worse. I was angry for W for instance for all the people he insured wouldn't muddle through life (all the Iraqis killed in the war). I loath Trump for all the Muslim and other Americans whose lives he will make more difficult. But I will muddle through life. Sometimes all I can wonder to that is: who cares? But I'm not actively suicidal or anything needless to say, I do preserve my life from day to day.
Let me paraphrase K-Von:
Most of us on Earth are unhappy, unfulfilled, and worn down. But we are also endowed with an iron will to live. This is a common configuration.
Let me paraphrase K-Von:
Most of us on Earth are unhappy, unfulfilled, and worn down. But we are also endowed with an iron will to live. This is a common configuration.
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation" --Thoreau
I agree with Williamsmith, though. I will not accept muddling and/or desperation in my life. Life is way too precious for me to fall into that trap. We can each choose a different path.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 12:22pm
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation" --Thoreau
I agree with Williamsmith, though. I will not accept muddling and/or desperation in my life. Life is way too precious for me to fall into that trap. We can each choose a different path.
Tell me about this different path.
Tell me about this different path.
Change the way you look at things.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 12:26pm
Change the way you look at things.
How is that different than painting one's jail cell?
I am not snarking here. I am sincerely asking. I am always very intrigued by resilient people and how they think.
ApatheticNoMore
3-2-16, 12:36pm
Painting one's jail cell is more useful, at least it accomplishes something in the outside world - one now has a newer looking jail cell.
But this whole idea that people can entirely change the way of looking at things, some is probably inborn temperament (I don't know to what extent that affects pessimism/optimism certainly introversion/extroversion etc.), some are early life experiences (there are enough studies on that, people are usually carrying around their childhood 40 years later - it's depressing but ...). catherine is a former cheerleader, we were probably with the kids noone but the outcasts wanted if we had anyone to hang out with at all and weren't all alone, or I was. That's not supposed to matter, we are supposed to start adult life tableau rasa, as if we never even had a childhood or an adolescence that effected us beyond what we aspired to then, according to what this culture believes. But come now, we don't have to dwell on it, but is that true we are tableau rasa as adults or were most of our expectations of life and how we deal with it set long ago? I only try to bring what is new and fresh and not entirely jaded to love usually and friendship ocassionally, and oh is that a constant struggle even (and not because bf is such an optimists of course, he isn't and doesn't demand it).
catherine is a former cheerleader..
haha, you have a good memory, ANM. It's true that I think I was born with a temperament conducive to being optimistic and happy, but I did not have a Brady Bunch childhood as I've related many times. I was the kid in grammar school who was made fun of because my clothes were unironed and dirty. I couldn't have many friends because I couldn't invite them home not knowing if the house would be in emotional and physical chaos when I got there.
My "friends" were the saints in the book that my devout grandmother gave me, as well as my imagination.
I am inspired by people like Anne Frank and Victor Frankl, Stephen Hawking and Helen Keller. I work at learning how they manage to tackle life despite unbelievable obstacles. They show me that if they can do it, I can do it. One of my go-to books is James Allen's As A Man Thinketh, and it's helped me a lot in the choices I've made in life. Every day I go to "school" to teach myself how to open myself to awareness and joy. It's a long, slow process, and I'm far from there, but I'm grateful for those moments, and for the possibility of those moments.
"It's difficult in times like these: ideals, dreams and cherished hopes rise within us, only to be crushed by grim reality. It's a wonder I haven't abandoned all my ideals, they seem so absurd and impractical. Yet I cling to them because I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.
"It's utterly impossible for me to build my life on a foundation of chaos, suffering, and death. I see the world being slowly transformed into a wilderness. I hear the approaching thunder that, one day, will destroy us too, and I feel the suffering of millions. And yet, when I look up at the sky, I somehow feel that everything will change for the better, that this cruelty too shall end, that peace and tranquility will return once more. In the meantime, I must hold on to my ideals. Perhaps the day will come when I'll be able to realize them!" --Anne Frank
Life is not black and white. It is more than 50 complex shades of grey, and I think we will be happy in proportion to our ability to accept the fog.
Ultralight
3-2-16, 12:59pm
I was one of the kids who skipped the pep rallies in high school.
I was one of the kids who skipped the pep rallies in high school.
However did you avoid them? I just spent the hour resenting having to participate. I would have welcomed another hour of study hall. Total, stupid waste of time. Do they still force this type of thing on students?
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 1:30pm
Besides Anne Frank and Victor Frankl I also enjoyed reading "Night" and "All but my Life." All are about the Holocaust and most people lost everything & everyone. MY BF lost her wonderful 19yo daughter and yet she goes on and finds joy in life. Yes there is much sadness too. I choose to be happy and enjoy life. It is really just a choice. We can't control what happens to us but we certainly control our reactions and feelings. If you have never looked at Cognitive Behavioral Therapy you might want to explore this. WE have but one life and I for one intend to enjoy it and not waste it.
However did you avoid them? I just spent the hour resenting having to participate. I would have welcomed another hour of study hall. Total, stupid waste of time. Do they still force this type of thing on students?
I can't speak for UA but my high school had an open campus. We just left the building, got in my car, and went to McDonalds, just like we did for every class we skipped. There were days when I was at McDonalds two or three times.
However did you avoid them? I just spent the hour resenting having to participate. I would have welcomed another hour of study hall. Total, stupid waste of time. Do they still force this type of thing on students?
I went to a detention-like room where I was berated by an annoying twit of a "teacher."
I'd ignored him and read books. A few other misfits were in there with me drawing pictures, trying to stay awake, occasionally sparring in debate with the annoying teacher.
I am deficient in whatever brain chemical causes groupthink. So pep rallies, to me, just looked like temporary mass psychosis.
Besides Anne Frank and Victor Frankl I also enjoyed reading "Night" and "All but my Life." All are about the Holocaust and most people lost everything & everyone. MY BF lost her wonderful 19yo daughter and yet she goes on and finds joy in life. Yes there is much sadness too. I choose to be happy and enjoy life. It is really just a choice. We can't control what happens to us but we certainly control our reactions and feelings. If you have never looked at Cognitive Behavioral Therapy you might want to explore this. WE have but one life and I for one intend to enjoy it and not waste it.
CBT therapy is like so many things. It takes time and effort -- both in short supply when you work for a living. And if you work, have kids, and perhaps other obligations -- forget it. You might as well drink more wine at night and watch more TV.
I have been seeing a CBT therapist for like 3 years now. She gives me all these assignments but I either don't do them at all or I barely scratch the surface. Why? Because if I did the CBT stuff I would not have time to do much else. No grit to do it left at the end of the day.
I read Kurt Vonnegut. It helps to feel less alone.
I can't speak for UA but my high school had an open campus. We just left the building, got in my car, and went to McDonalds, just like we did for every class we skipped. There were days when I was at McDonalds two or three times.
Wow. At my school you'd get punished for that. They'd send you to Room 101. haha
For detention or Saturday school. :(
I can't speak for UA but my high school had an open campus.
My high school had a closed campus, you couldn't leave, ever, without an adult signing you in or out.
On the other hand, the school owned all the land to the horizon in all directions, and then some, and you were always welcome to saddle up a horse and work the range. You could even sign out a rifle. As the scholarship kid from California who was a longboard surfer and got around the civilized part of the campus on a skateboard, I was initially a bit out of my element.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 2:03pm
UL: those are all excuses for doing nothing to help yourself. I had 3 boys, went to college more then f.t. (got a BA in 3 years), and yes did therapy instead of drinking wine, in addition to driving the kids to all their activities, keeping the house clean, etc. My hubby was working 7 days a week to pay cash for my college so everything on the home front fell to me. They were busy years-I didn't watch TV. Then I got a master's and worked p.t. Then I went on to get 2 more grad degrees. YOu are single with no kids so have plenty of time. If it was important to you to change you would. WE only change when the pain of changing is less then the pain of staying the same.
UL: those are all excuses for doing nothing to help yourself. I had 3 boys, went to college more then f.t. (got a BA in 3 years), and yes did therapy instead of drinking wine, in addition to driving the kids to all their activities, keeping the house clean, etc. My hubby was working 7 days a week to pay cash for my college so everything on the home front fell to me. They were busy years-I didn't watch TV. Then I got a master's and worked p.t. Then I went on to get 2 more grad degrees. YOu are single with no kids so have plenty of time. If it was important to you to change you would. WE only change when the pain of changing is less then the pain of staying the same.
Not everyone is a superstar. haha
But I agree, I need to make some changes. Which is why:
-I have dramatically changed the way I eat
-I signed up to take classes at the university I work at so I might be able to change careers
-I am applying for a few jobs a week
-I meditate daily
But I think it is important to remember that not everyone is geared or wired the same.
But I agree, I need to make some changes. Which is why:
-I have dramatically changed the way I eat
-I signed up to take classes at the university I work at so I might be able to change careers
-I am applying for a few jobs a week
-I meditate daily
But I think it is important to remember that not everyone is geared or wired the same.
Great changes, UA. And you are right. People aren't the same. That's why I love Stephen Covey's idea of the Circle of Influence and I love the Serenity Prayer. Life is about changing what you can and accepting the rest.
Great changes, UA.
Thanks.
Life is about changing what you can and accepting the rest.
I agree. I change what I can and accept the rest -- just not cheerfully! haha
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 2:22pm
Sounds like you are making good progress. If you don't want to be happy then don't worry about it. You will have lots of company I am sure. I choose to surround myself with positive people and not fake positive but real people. If I find someone consistently negative I move on. LIfe is too short.
Sounds like you are making good progress. If you don't want to be happy then don't worry about it. You will have lots of company I am sure. I choose to surround myself with positive people and not fake positive but real people. If I find someone consistently negative I move on. LIfe is too short.
I am not so concerned with happiness but more with purpose and meaning.
iris lilies
3-2-16, 2:26pm
I am not so concerned with happiness but more with purpose and meaning.
What about being "content?"
Is that word more palatable for you than "happy?" Would you like to be content and work toward that?
ApatheticNoMore
3-2-16, 2:27pm
I've had lots of therapy, at this point I'd rather have the money by far I think (no, no and heck no, I don't' want to scrimp and save and drive myself nutty about finances just to afford $160 or $120 a week sessions or something. Just no. I haven't always paid that much of course, as I've had old therapists that charge much less but that pretty much is the going rate). It hasn't helped all that much and has done maybe as much damage as good. Your mileage may vary.
What about being "content?"
Is that word more palatable for you than "happy?" Would you like to be content and work toward that?
Happy is good, content is fine too.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 2:40pm
You can have purpose and meaning in life and still be happy.
You can have purpose and meaning in life and still be happy.
Trifecta!
ApatheticNoMore
3-2-16, 2:46pm
What is "being happy"? Does it even repay thought? One mostly just is, moment by moment, ups and downs. Though there may be particular things one hates (one's job of course cough cough - obviously) and more diffuse things sometimes, and one may have some overarching darkness. But if one is not clinically depressed at the moment or something (obviously deeply unhappy), how would one even know if one was "happy"? Moods come and go, right? One might hate one's job though :~)
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 2:47pm
If you are generally happy you know it. If you don't know what it is then I don't know what to say.
ApatheticNoMore
3-2-16, 2:49pm
I don't know what it is as a general thing no. I don't know that it IS a general thing. I know there are moments when one is doing something enjoyable that may feel alright, there are moments when one is doing something purposeful that feel very good.
I'm mostly content enough, content but not ecstatic, and not without some occasional sadness too - there is plenty to get sad about sometimes, when I don't have to go to work. If I have to go to work (workdays) I am fairly miserable about it and hate the world. I don't really think doing absolutely nothing would be ideal for me though for all that, just I hate work.
I think it mostly doesn't repay thought, because I can think of little that is likely to make one more unhappy than spending time thinking about happiness, it's elusive, it comes and goes, we are not creatures that are designed to be constantly content but almost designed for a kind of discontented hunger and craving some say.
Williamsmith
3-2-16, 3:16pm
Carson to suspend his campaign. Not attending Fox debate and No Path Forward. Too little too late? Or the start of a domino effect designed to block Trump clinching a nomination? A Trump Task Force?
Carson to suspend his campaign. Not attending Fox debate and No Path Forward. Too little too late? Or the start of a domino effect designed to block Trump clinching a nomination? A Trump Task Force?
Very disappointing.
Carson to suspend his campaign. Not attending Fox debate and No Path Forward. Too little too late? Or the start of a domino effect designed to block Trump clinching a nomination? A Trump Task Force?
Seems a bit late. If you look at the results from yesterday, if The Machine Candidates had closed ranks earlier, Trump would have likely not done well at all. Cruz and Rubio are splitting too much of the vote out.
Love it.
Seems a bit late. If you look at the results from yesterday, if The Machine Candidates had closed ranks earlier, Trump would have likely not done well at all. Cruz and Rubio are splitting too much of the vote out.
Love it.
The Canadian promises Rubot the VP spot to drop out of the race. Trump problem solved.
What is "being happy"? Does it even repay thought? One mostly just is, moment by moment, ups and downs. Though there may be particular things one hates (one's job of course cough cough - obviously) and more diffuse things sometimes, and one may have some overarching darkness. But if one is not clinically depressed at the moment or something (obviously deeply unhappy), how would one even know if one was "happy"? Moods come and go, right? One might hate one's job though :~)
There's a lot of truth to that. I find that I can't hunt happiness down, but am surprised at how often it has ambushed me. On the other hand, I can pretty much grab a handful of misery whenever I look for it.
I don't know exactly how you attract happiness. Gratitude maybe. Trying to create it for others and hoping to catch some of the backwash. Reasonable expectations. Offloaded baggage. Keeping busy, even if it isn't exactly what you think you were meant to do. Maybe simply accepting that life is hard and finite and contingent, and there's no use being a wimp about it.
I'm just saying.
There's a lot of truth to that. I find that I can't hunt happiness down, but am surprised at how often it has ambushed me. On the other hand, I can pretty much grab a handful of misery whenever I look for it.
I don't know exactly how you attract happiness. Gratitude maybe. Trying to create it for others and hoping to catch some of the backwash. Reasonable expectations. Offloaded baggage. Keeping busy, even if it isn't exactly what you think you were meant to do. Maybe simply accepting that life is hard and finite and contingent, and there's no use being a wimp about it.
I'm just saying.
"Not being a wimp about it." I've found that to be a good rule of thumb.
I can pretty much grab a handful of misery whenever I look for it.
We all can. And that should be a red flag to society (not to the government specifically -- no need to freak out!)
Maybe simply accepting that life is hard and finite and contingent, and there's no use being a wimp about it.
1. I largely agree.
2. I think that since this is the case we all ought to have the right to some belly-aching from time to time.
3. Also since this is the case, people should be able to humanely exit stage left anytime.
ApatheticNoMore
3-2-16, 4:37pm
We all can. And that should be a red flag to society (not to the government specifically -- no need to freak out!)
there is much in this society that is not conductive to happiness, it does not score all that well on such things, and then there is just the human condition, and then there are personal things which may had or have a social component but.
Maybe simply accepting that life is hard and finite and contingent, and there's no use being a wimp about it.
I agree, although I don't use those terms, it's more "reality principle" (Freud of course) for me than any type of being tough. It's not toughness it's simple realism.
2. I think that since this is the case we all ought to have the right to some belly-aching from time to time.
3. Also since this is the case, people should be able to humanely exit stage left anytime. [/B]
yes I'm not sure who disagrees, liberals who have problems that people kill themselves with guns I guess. But I don't know that's too weird a reason to have a problem with guns, I think people have an absolute right to off themselves (but of course it WILL hurt one's loved ones).
iris lilies
3-2-16, 4:51pm
We all can. And that should be a red flag to society (not to the government specifically -- no need to freak out!)
1. I largely agree.
2. I think that since this is the case we all ought to have the right to some belly-aching from time to time.
3. Also since this is the case, people should be able to humanely exit stage left anytime.
Belly aching too often, to the same set of people, and about the same issues, will NOT be allowed at some point because the audience will depart or shut you ( the generic you) out.
Belly aching too often, to the same set of people, and about the same issues, will NOT be allowed at some point because the audience will depart or shut you ( the generic you) out.
I would agree with that. I have found going to a therapist helpful for belly-aching.
You pay them, do your belly-aching, they pretend to listen and care in a convincing sort of way, and then you go home and spare your family and friends the belly-aching.
Everything i've read is that most people have a baseline level on the happy/muserable continuum. Some things will make them temporarily happy (yea! I got a promotion) or unhappy (i'm down because my dog died) but in fairly short order they go back to their base equilibrium on the happy/miserable scale. Judging by most people i've known this theory seems about right.
Everything i've read is that most people have a baseline level on the happy/muserable continuum. Some things will make them temporarily happy (yea! I got a promotion) or unhappy (i'm down because my dog died) but in fairly short order they go back to their base equilibrium on the happy/miserable scale. Judging by most people i've known this theory seems about right.
I have read the same stuff. I have also experienced this. It makes sense.
But I think that baseline often moves steadily downward for most people as they enter middle age.
I have read the same stuff. I have also experienced this. It makes sense.
But I think that baseline often moves steadily downward for most people as they enter middle age.
Maybe so, but then you get to the Golden Years--and studies show that older people are the happiest, and I have to say, I agree with them. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4688191
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