2020 Presidential Candidates [Archive] - Page 4

catherine

9-12-19, 11:37pm

I watched tonight's debate as well. I'm not impressed with the majority but I do like Mayor Pete, he seems to me to have more integrity than the rest of the field combined.

You may not agree with Bernie Sanders, but I truly believe in his integrity. He has single-mindedly stayed on message for decades. You may not agree with the message, but you have to admit that he has never wavered. The positive effects of his leadership as mayor in Burlington, VT are still evident, and that town continues to thrive, providing high quality of life thanks to his policies. I truly believe that if the Clintons hadn't screwed him over in 2016, he'd be president today.

BTW, I'm traveling and in Houston tonight and it killed me that I had to go to a client dinner instead of watching! I made DH tape it for me.

Teacher Terry

9-13-19, 2:31am

I totally agree Catherine.

LDAHL

9-13-19, 9:21am

I didn’t see much that would be useful in culling the herd, except maybe Castro’s attempt at calling Biden old. Warren seemed oddly quiet to me. Harris made points against Trump but not necessarily for herself. Beto took time from gazing at his reflection to talk tough about guns. Yang’s game show gambit, while probably illegal, showed some imagination. Biden saved the worst gaffes for later in the evening when people pay less attention. Bernie once again played the role of angry socialist millionaire.

No breakout performances that I could see.

Rogar

9-13-19, 10:09am

I missed the debates and my scan of a couple reviews were mostly about back biting and one up man ship. I have wondered if any of the further left have backed off on some of the policies that are proving to be overwhelmingly unpopular. I think some versions of medicare for all, open borders, and allowing people here illegally into some government assistance programs might fall into that category. I can respect sticking to ones guns, but when a person is running for public office I think they should honor the desires of the electorate. Plus they need the votes to beat Trump.

Alan

9-13-19, 10:46am

You may not agree with Bernie Sanders, but I truly believe in his integrity. He has single-mindedly stayed on message for decades. You may not agree with the message, but you have to admit that he has never wavered.
You're right, he continued to promote his desire to do away with the 1% and all our private insurance while assuring us he's not one of those Venezuela kind of socialists. When asked directly, he still refused to answer how he'd pay for his promises, although to be fair Senator Warren did the same, both speaking lots of words that somehow never answered the question, even indirectly. Bernie also pointed his finger a lot to accentuate his single-mindedness.

I thought Biden did a pretty good job of deflecting attacks but I'm still confused about how not enough children are allowed to listen to the record player at night.

Harris is coming after Trump, regardless of the question, that's her answer and Beto is coming after our guns, again regardless of the question. Yang reminded us that he'll eliminate our dire straits by giving us money for nothing. He also let us know that he's Asian so he knows lots of doctors.

Boot-edge-edge seemed to be the one calm, rational voice in the crowd but that doesn't seem to be of much value in the race, at least not yet.

LDAHL

9-13-19, 3:25pm

I look at Trump and I look at the Democrats and I wonder if it isn’t too late to draft Nikki Haley.

Tybee

9-13-19, 5:05pm

I look at Trump and I look at the Democrats and I wonder if it isn’t too late to draft Nikki Haley.

I lived in SC when she was governor and I'd vote for her for president.

pinkytoe

9-13-19, 5:39pm

I though Butig??? came across as very sincere, practical-minded and intelligent. I think if he were just a wee tad older, things might go in his favor.

Tybee

9-13-19, 6:38pm

My son and husband think he's the greatest--but I just can't see being president after being mayor of a smallish city.

frugal-one

9-13-19, 8:08pm

I watched tonight's debate as well. I'm not impressed with the majority but I do like Mayor Pete, he seems to me to have more integrity than the rest of the field combined.

Oh my, we actually agree on something! I like him too!

frugal-one

9-13-19, 8:13pm

I though Butig??? came across as very sincere, practical-minded and intelligent. I think if he were just a wee tad older, things might go in his favor.

Age discrimination?

jp1

9-15-19, 2:40pm

I though Butig??? came across as very sincere, practical-minded and intelligent. I think if he were just a wee tad older, things might go in his favor.

Personally, in addition to his obvious intelligence, practical ideas and calm, sober attitude, I like the fact that he brings the perspective of a new generation. We've had baby boomer presidents for my entire adult life. Maybe it's time for someone with different life experiences to take charge.

jp1

9-15-19, 2:46pm

I look at Trump and I look at the Democrats and I wonder if it isn’t too late to draft Nikki Haley.

Since the republican leadership in a number of states don't want to risk a primary it would appear that it is indeed too late. Perhaps in the post trump world she can be the one to go up against Steve King to determine the future soul of the republican party in 2024.

pinkytoe

9-15-19, 3:10pm

I completely agree that someone youngerr and fresher should take the reins. But I know enough older folk who think differently so makes me wonder if Buti could pull ahead.

bae

9-15-19, 3:15pm

Since the republican leadership in a number of states don't want to risk a primary it would appear that it is indeed too late.

Have Republican (or Democrat) primaries been cancelled before, when the serving president is of the same party?

Is the motivation "to protect Trump", or are there other issues?

I've always wondered - political parties are private organizations. They aren't an official part of the government. Who pays for the election costs of the primaries? I know when the political district I was an elected official of had a primary for out non-partisan seats, we had to pay the state/county for the associated election costs out of our budget. Do the private political parties have to do so as well?

jp1

9-15-19, 3:49pm

Have Republican (or Democrat) primaries been cancelled before, when the serving president is of the same party?

Is the motivation "to protect Trump", or are there other issues?

I've always wondered - political parties are private organizations. They aren't an official part of the government. Who pays for the election costs of the primaries? I know when the political district I was an elected official of had a primary for out non-partisan seats, we had to pay the state/county for the associated election costs out of our budget. Do the private political parties have to do so as well?

Primaries of both parties have been cancelled before. If this article is an accurate read of the various times it’s happened it appears that cancelling primaries doesn’t help a weak incumbent.

https://time.com/5672551/gop-canceling-primaries-trump/

Personally i don’t understand why states pay the costs of having primaries. But i suppose the two parties that benefit are also the people who make the rules so getting that changed seems pretty unlikely.

jp1

9-15-19, 3:51pm

I completely agree that someone youngerr and fresher should take the reins. But I know enough older folk who think differently so makes me wonder if Buti could pull ahead.

At this stage of the game in 2016 or 2008 the ultimate winners were not considered likely to win. And i imagine if you go back further there are plenty of other ‘unlikely’ presidents in our past.

Ultralight

9-15-19, 9:25pm

At first I was Team Kamala. Then I moved to Mayor Pete.

Today I finally and firmly decided I am in the Yang Gang. I even donated.

Yppej

9-15-19, 10:10pm

I was interested in hearing Beto and tried to go to one of his rallies last weekend but his campaign was so unorganized they could not tell me where to park. He does not seem ready for prime time. Both rallies in my area were at college campuses although the older the voter the greater the turnout, so that seemed a poor move also on his part.

jp1

9-16-19, 6:31am

Both rallies in my area were at college campuses although the older the voter the greater the turnout, so that seemed a poor move also on his part.

Old folks aren’t allowed on college campuses?

LDAHL

9-16-19, 10:32am

Old folks aren’t allowed on college campuses?

It depends on what kind of frightening ideas they bring with them. If they make the students feel unsafe mob action may be necessary.

Teacher Terry

9-16-19, 11:35am

Our college campus is so big that it involves a lot of walking which some older people may not be capable of. Plus if you don’t know where you are going it can be hard to find your way around.

jp1

9-16-19, 1:29pm

Our college campus is so big that it involves a lot of walking which some older people may not be capable of. Plus if you don’t know where you are going it can be hard to find your way around.

Ah, that makes sense since the poster had also noted that Team Beto couldn't tell them where there was parking.

Tybee

9-16-19, 1:40pm

The Bernie rally I attended in 2016 was very poorly planned from standpoint of anyone with disability. We had to stand outside in very cold temps lining up for a couple of hours--I managed it, but with my respiratory disease was kind of a miracle. I realized at that point that anyone with disability was going to have problems attending political rallies.

When I was disabled in a wheelchair, I learned how difficult it is to do things the way they are set up for the rest of the normally abled world.

Not a fan of that kind of lack of planning on part of the organizers.

JaneV2.0

9-17-19, 3:44pm

catherine

9-17-19, 3:57pm

I just ran across this interesting anecdote--he's not number one on my list, but I have a lot of respect for him:

https://www.liker.com/public/posts/41704?fbclid=IwAR19GmK9fZ-5a5Qro6-Xyi75g6JDerRsogfVTK5g4FeR1EpnKJh2wJL4VHw

Wow. Anecdotes shouldn't be the basis for conclusions, but that's still a great anecdote. I didn't know he was so well-educated, but on top of that, so humble and compassionate. What a refreshing change from our current leader.

JaneV2.0

9-17-19, 4:11pm

Wow. Anecdotes shouldn't be the basis for conclusions, but that's still a great anecdote. I didn't know he was so well-educated, but on top of that, so humble and compassionate. What a refreshing change from our current leader.

I knew he was a Rhodes Scholar--he and Rachel Maddow were talking about the delicacy of coming out before or during studies abroad--and I'd heard about his languages. He must be really gifted--I found out in a hurry that Arabic wasn't something you just picked up in a classroom--he speaks seven or so. And he's pretty young!

Cory Booker's pulled off some pretty good community capers, as well. We have a good crop this time. They're all (even the lackluster Biden) a refreshing change from our current abomination, er administration.

LDAHL

9-18-19, 10:18am

I knew he was a Rhodes Scholar--he and Rachel Maddow were talking about the delicacy of coming out before or during studies abroad--and I'd heard about his languages. He must be really gifted--I found out in a hurry that Arabic wasn't something you just picked up in a classroom--he speaks seven or so. And he's pretty young!

Cory Booker's pulled off some pretty good community capers, as well. We have a good crop this time. They're all (even the lackluster Biden) a refreshing change from our current abomination, er administration.

I would say you have about an 90% chance of getting your wish, especially if the eagerly anticipated recession arrives in a timely fashion.

Then the new president will need to contend with global competition, the Senate, the courts, arithmetic and sniping from a left wing that will sneer at him or her as “Republican lite” for not arranging the appropriate miracles.

As the man said, as idealism approaches reality the costs become prohibitive.

JaneV2.0

9-18-19, 10:38am

The new president will also have to deal with the nightmare of reversing all the damage Trump has wrought with his slash and burn approach to governing and to mend fences with all the countries we've betrayed during his reign.

LDAHL

9-18-19, 11:11am

That’s true of any administration, although probably more so with Trump. I can picture something like the Obama apology tour. “Sorry about mentioning your reneging on your defense budget promises. That was rude.” “Sorry about asking about Greenland. But you made us such a good deal on the Virgin Islands, we couldn’t resist asking.” “Sorry about not trusting Iran. That strike on the Saudi oil fields was just a misunderstanding.”

JaneV2.0

9-18-19, 12:11pm

"Sorry about bugging out on the G7 climate change talks and then lying about it." "Sorry about the emoluments clause, non-stop grifting and self-aggrandizement." "Sorry about time wasted playing golf and holding Hitleresque "rallies'" "Sorry about putting spies in peril to placate Vladimir Putin." "Sorry about revealing classified intelligence about Israel to Russian operatives, publicly." "Sorry about flouting international asylum rules because, you know, brown people--and sorry about all those deaths in ICE custody." "Sorry about stonewalling and unanswered subpoenas." "Sorry about states' rights, eminent domain, 'fine people on both sides,' Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon." "Sorry about countless lies and endless childish twitter insults..." An apology tour would clearly require an extensive staff and more time than we probably have. How anyone can defend this monumentally vile administration is a mystery to me. But hey--coming up with reasons to apologize would make a helluva party game.

LDAHL

9-18-19, 12:56pm

I think you’re confusing putting Trump in context with defending Trump. It isn’t a simple for-us-or-against-us thing. Can’t I be against both? I can be creeped out by Trump, but I can also be creeped out when, say Warren says she has a plan for me and damn the constitutional niceties.

We’ve had a couple of generations now of every new guy being the worst guy ever. A Nazi. A monster. A golfer. You can’t escalate the good vs evil thing indefinitely.

JaneV2.0

9-18-19, 3:52pm

frugal-one

9-18-19, 4:30pm

LDAHL

9-18-19, 4:53pm

You're right that (Republican) presidents have steadily eroded respect for the rule of law while enriching themselves and their cronies, but we have to have reached an apogee with this clown, else we have completely lost our way.

(I've read up on the "apology tour," and it wasn't.

Why would you imagine Elizabeth Warren--a law professor--won't respect the Constitution? I've seen nothing to indicate that.)

Lawyers looking for ways around constitutional impediments is hardly unheard of.

Here's what Jonah Goldberg had to say on the topic: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-09-16/donald-trump-elizabeth-warren-democrats-proposals-unconstitutional

Personally, I think she views the Constitution as an obstacle to be overcome. She thinks she can succeed where Obama failed, waving her scepter her first day in office to ban fracking throughout the land. Using the commerce clause as the route to a national right to abortion strikes me as pushing the envelop until it tears. It seems her wealth tax idea is thought to be unconstitutional in most quarters. The arbitrary power granted the CPFB may not survive the many constitutional challenges ongoing. I certainly don't like her ideas about the government assuming de facto control of federal elections from the states when deemed necessary.

jp1

9-18-19, 5:18pm

I am not an advocate of Elizabeth Warren. However, I believe she will try to do what she thinks is right for the people and the environment. trump doesn't care about the people, only that corporations make money. The hell with the environment. Today, trump is trying to make it so CA can't put into law environmental protections (i.e. gasoline mileage provisions).

It's fascinating to me that conserving the environment is yet another of those core conservative principals that has been tossed aside in recent years. Admittedly it'd probably be a shorter list if I attempted to make a list of the principals that conservatives have retained. In any case, I am not terribly worried about trump's silly tweets on the topic of CA's environmental regulations. While he doesn't understand how laws work, we do still have a semi-functional judiciary branch that would have to pretzelize themselves worse than Scalia ever did to justify siding with trump on this. CA's ability to set their own standards is not some executive order, it's a law duly passed by both branches of congress and signed into law by the president at the time.

bae

9-18-19, 5:23pm

I *thought* this comment by Beto during the last debate sounded a bit absurd. I know in our community we train for active shooter events, and we have triage teams ready to go in and stop the bleeding and stabilize patients, even while the event is underway.

So looks like Beto was throwing the first responders under the bus.

https://www.firerescue1.com/response-time/articles/texas-ff-union-betos-debate-comment-on-shooting-response-unfair-to-first-responders-D2qz2Trqk27utic7/

frugal-one

9-19-19, 2:38pm

Watch the news today. Now trump's personal attorney, bill barr, is defending him from the whistleblower. barr got his job to watch trump's back! I hope everything blows up and out into the open. My guess it will not matter though because trump could kill someone and still not face the consequences. Many Republicans will stand by him no matter what crooked things he does. It truly is reprehensible!

JaneV2.0

9-19-19, 4:14pm

The idea is to discourage whistle-blowing. Look what happened to Reality Winner.
This latest one should be very, very careful. I believe their life is in danger. Putin doesn't mess around.

bae

9-19-19, 4:25pm

The idea is to discourage whistle-blowing. Look what happened to Reality Winner.
This latest one should be very, very careful. I believe their life is in danger. Putin doesn't mess around.

And what's the point of whistle-blowing, and taking any risks, when it all gets swept under the rug.

frugal-one

9-19-19, 6:54pm

And what's the point of whistle-blowing, and taking any risks, when it all gets swept under the rug.

Disgusting that the president is above the law. He needs to be ousted!

bae

9-19-19, 7:36pm

Disgusting that the president is above the law. He needs to be ousted!

Luckily, we have laws that specify how to do just that!

Unluckily, our elected representatives seem to think it's not going to happen.

jp1

9-19-19, 8:15pm

Unluckily, our elected representatives seem to think it's not going to happen.

And sadly they are probably correct. Although I think that they, or at least their leader, misunderestimates the impact that could be made from actively starting and working through the process even if ultimately removal from office doesn't happen.

frugal-one

9-20-19, 12:26pm

Interestingly, Alan or Iris Lilies are not contributing to the conversations lately. There is no justification for what trump is doing.

Alan

9-20-19, 2:02pm

Interestingly, Alan or Iris Lilies are not contributing to the conversations lately. There is no justification for what trump is doing.I can't speak for Iris Lilies but I've become bored with all the conversations based upon emotions rather than reason. You know don't you that the reason impeachment talks and legal action aren't going anywhere is because they require facts, not speculation or wishes, and pointing that out seems to be a waste of time. Give me something substantive to work with and I'll be happy to engage you.

Teacher Terry

9-20-19, 2:16pm

Trying to impeach him is a waste of time. Just vote him out.

frugal-one

9-20-19, 3:25pm

I can't speak for Iris Lilies but I've become bored with all the conversations based upon emotions rather than reason. You know don't you that the reason impeachment talks and legal action aren't going anywhere is because they require facts, not speculation or wishes, and pointing that out seems to be a waste of time. Give me something substantive to work with and I'll be happy to engage you.

There are facts. The problem is that the Republicans are in control and they ignore the facts.

JaneV2.0

9-20-19, 3:32pm

It seems to me there's a veritable avalanche of facts, but the White House stooges--notably Trump's fixer, Barr--are holding it at bay. For now. The Mueller Report provided evidence of several crimes, and indications are that there are many more. The only emotions I see in play are anger and frustration that nothing has been to stop this ongoing crime against our country and Constitution.

frugal-one

9-20-19, 3:36pm

Trying to impeach him is a waste of time. Just vote him out.

My concern is that he will find a way to rig the elections. trump demonstrated already that he is not going to do anything to hinder Russia, or anyone else, from hacking our polling devices. Hopefully, NY will be able to gather enough evidence to show the world the person he is!!! Unfortunately, many Republicans ignore 99% of the bs trump does and will vote for him no matter. You would have thought the Mueller report would have opened eyes. But, again, they would have had to read it. Of course, many have blinders on and will not even look at something that could possibly reflect negatively on the republican party or president.

ETA: I agree JaneV2.0!!!

Yppej

9-20-19, 5:01pm

I started reading the Mueller report. It was repetitive and longwinded.

Alan

9-20-19, 5:20pm

I started reading the Mueller report. It was repetitive and longwinded.
That's ok, the folks who want you to read it haven't read it either, else they'd know it's a nothingburger.

JaneV2.0

9-20-19, 6:15pm

That's ok, the folks who want you to read it haven't read it either, else they'd know it's a nothingburger.

I've read most of it; I considered doing so my civic duty. Trump and his gang are in it up to their eyebrows. There's plenty of meat in that sandwich.

frugal-one

9-20-19, 8:27pm

I started reading the Mueller report. It was repetitive and longwinded.

Earlier there was a post about what pages to read for the full effect.

frugal-one

9-20-19, 8:28pm

That's ok, the folks who want you to read it haven't read it either, else they'd know it's a nothingburger.

That's why there was such a ruckus that trump SHOULD be impeached. Sound more like he should be put in prison.

Yppej

9-21-19, 7:46am

Bye bye Bill DiBlasio. Now there are even fewer candidates advocating single payer.

ApatheticNoMore

9-21-19, 10:34am

Bye bye Bill DiBlasio. Now there are even fewer candidates advocating single payer.

only 2 of the top 3 (whether it will happen is another matter), so interesting spin

LDAHL

9-23-19, 11:51am

I read this morning that Senator Booker may close shop soon.

If I had to wager right now, my bet would be on a Trump/Warren contest. The schoolyard bully versus the hall monitor.

catherine

9-23-19, 6:24pm

If I had to wager right now, my bet would be on a Trump/Warren contest. The schoolyard bully versus the hall monitor.

I'm shocked at her Iowa caucus poll numbers. She has skyrocketed past Biden all of a sudden. I think she's inherited a lot of former Bernie supporters who believe he's too old now.

Alan

9-23-19, 6:31pm

I'm shocked at her Iowa caucus poll numbers. She has skyrocketed past Biden all of a sudden. I think she's inherited a lot of former Bernie supporters who believe he's too old now.
I don't know, it seems to me that she's slightly less angry and punitive than Bernie which seems to be the new standard for moderation in the party.

Even though it's still early in the game, I agree with LDAHL that the nomination seems to be hers to lose. I was hoping that people would notice how reasonable Buttigieg seems to be but that seems to be asking too much.

I'd love to see a serious third party candidate enter the fray.

ApatheticNoMore

9-23-19, 7:03pm

I'm shocked at her Iowa caucus poll numbers. She has skyrocketed past Biden all of a sudden. I think she's inherited a lot of former Bernie supporters who believe he's too old now.

not a lot of overlap between current Bernie supporters and current Warren supporters though (Warren and Harris have overlap and Harris is losing supporters, Bernie and Biden have overlap and Biden needs to be losing supporters ;)).

Maybe from 2016 though I don't know. I think if we're going back to 2016 though it is just as likely she inherited Hillary supporters.

Reasonable, I was hoping Republicans would realize how reasonable Bill Weld is, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Republicans lecturing anyone on running a reasonable candidate at this point :laff:

bae

9-23-19, 7:48pm

I'd love to see a serious third party candidate enter the fray.

I'd love to see a decent Republican candidate enter the fray. Someone like JFK, Eisenhower, or Obama.

iris lilies

9-23-19, 7:56pm

People. There will be no challenge to Donald J. Trump from the Republican side. Be real.

Yppej

9-23-19, 7:58pm

There will be a challenge but it will not go anywhere.

bae

9-23-19, 8:16pm

People. There will be no challenge to Donald J. Trump from the Republican side. Be real.

Yes. I think the Republicans basically don't exist anymore as the party I knew. The brand has been hijacked, and the remaining "Republicans" have shown their character.

frugal-one

9-23-19, 8:37pm

People. There will be no challenge to Donald J. Trump from the Republican side. Be real.

Yeah, he bought his place. We can only hope Republicans start seeing him for who he is.

LDAHL

9-24-19, 7:25am

Yeah, he bought his place.

How so?

frugal-one

9-24-19, 10:37pm

How so?

bill barr and the senate are in trump's pocket. They will not let anyone else in. barr acts as the trump's attorney ...

JaneV2.0

9-25-19, 8:23am

bill barr and the senate are in trump's pocket. They will not let anyone else in. barr acts as the trump's attorney ...

He finally got the Roy Cohn he was looking for.

Alan

9-25-19, 8:43am

He finally got the Roy Cohn he was looking for.I'm looking forward to the documentary.

JaneV2.0

9-25-19, 9:06am

I don't know how anyone familiar with the Mueller report can deny that Trump obstructed justice.
He has a lifelong history of criminal behavior of various kinds; he's a disgrace to the office of president.

LDAHL

9-25-19, 9:28am

bill barr and the senate are in trump's pocket. They will not let anyone else in. barr acts as the trump's attorney ...

But how is that “buying his place”?

LDAHL

9-25-19, 9:30am

I don't know how anyone familiar with the Mueller report can deny that Trump obstructed justice.

Mueller himself seemed pretty ambivalent on that question.

JaneV2.0

9-25-19, 12:04pm

Mueller himself seemed pretty ambivalent on that question.

I don't think he was ambivalent--he made it perfectly clear that he didn't rule out malfeasance. But he was stonewalled by Trump's henchmen, the "We don't honor no stinkin' subpoenas" crowd, so he didn't get the evidence he might have otherwise got. Thus he kicked the can toward Congress.

LDAHL

9-25-19, 12:27pm

I don't think he was ambivalent--he made it perfectly clear that he didn't rule out malfeasance. But he was stonewalled by Trump's henchmen, the "We don't honor no stinkin' subpoenas" crowd, so he didn't get the evidence he might have otherwise got. Thus he kicked the can toward Congress.

Not ruling something out doesn’t strike me as a high standard of argument. The Democrats didn’t do themselves any favors trying to bully Mueller into saying otherwise.

I don’t rule out the possibility of life on Mars, but that doesn’t mean I think an invasion is imminent.

JaneV2.0

9-25-19, 2:43pm

The Republican party is all about law and order when it's advantageous to them. Otherwise, not so much.
We used to give at least lip service to it mattering.

LDAHL

9-25-19, 5:32pm

The Republican party is all about law and order when it's advantageous to them. Otherwise, not so much.
We used to give at least lip service to it mattering.

I suppose that depends on your definition of law and order.

The legal concept of guilty until we rule it out is the backbone of many legal systems around the world. I just wouldn’t want to live under any of them.

jp1

9-25-19, 8:37pm

My definition of law and order includes fully investigating potential crimes. And also, that the president is not above the law and if he potentially broke it he also needs to be fully investigated. But apparently I'm old fashioned and out of date that way.

Alan

9-27-19, 4:13pm

Getting back to the candidates, I see it's become something of a media challenge to get Elizabeth Warren to admit she'll raise taxes on the middle class. It's amusing to watch her dodge and evade but damned if she hasn't consistently held steady and refused to admit it. She's tough!

frugal-one

9-27-19, 4:25pm

Saw Warren on Colburn.... she told how taxes would be raised. Not sure I agree with her she did outline her plan. She was on recently.

Alan

9-27-19, 4:45pm

Saw Warren on Colburn.... she told how taxes would be raised. Not sure I agree with her she did outline her plan. She was on recently.
You sound like her, this was the exchange: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-colbert-report-on-elizabeth-warren-11568825857

Colbert: You keep being asked in the debates: “How are you going to pay for it? Are you going to raise the middle-class taxes?” How are you going to pay for it? Are you going to raise the middle-class taxes?

Warren: So, here’s how we’re going to do this: Costs are going to go up for the wealthiest Americans, for big corporations.

Colbert: Taxes is what you mean by costs?

Warren: Yeah, and hard-working middle-class families are going to see their costs go down.

Colbert: But will their taxes go up?

Warren: But, here’s the thing—

Colbert: But, here’s the thing. I’ve listened to these answers a few times before and I just want to make a parallel suggestion for you about how you might defend the taxes that perhaps you’re not mentioning in your sentence... Isn’t Medicare-for-all like public school? There might be taxes for it, but you certainly save a lot of money on sending your kids to school and do you want to live in a world where kids aren’t educated? Do you want to live in a world where your fellow citizens are dying, even if it costs a little bit of money?

Warren: So, I accept your point and I believe in your point. Health care is a basic human right. We fight for basic human rights, and that’s Medicare-for-all. Everyone gets covered.

The latest effort was yesterday when an MSNBC talking head (forgot her name) asked several times "Will your plan increase taxes on the middle class". Warren stayed on message and only admitted what plays best with her base, "Costs will go up for the rich, costs will go down for everyone else".

I think any day now her black slacks will spontaneously combust.

JaneV2.0

9-27-19, 4:49pm

Of course taxes will need to be raised to accommodate single payer health care. And they should never have been lowered to the extent they were by Reagan et al.

catherine

9-27-19, 5:08pm

Of course taxes will need to be raised to accommodate single payer health care. And they should never have been lowered to the extent they were by Reagan et al.

And there will be offsets when you don't have to pay hundreds of dollars a month for your employer-based plan, or thousands for your self-employment plan.

Alan

9-27-19, 5:13pm

And there will be offsets when you don't have to pay hundreds of dollars a month for your employer-based plan, or thousands for your self-employment plan.Will there? Economists have said her tax plan, including an unconstitutional wealth tax, will only cover 10% of the cost of promises made.

LDAHL

10-1-19, 10:29am

Will there? Economists have said her tax plan, including an unconstitutional wealth tax, will only cover 10% of the cost of promises made.

As a former Republican Native American house flipper, I think we can count on a certain level of flexibility once she was in office. I’m confident the plan will need modification as reality and the GOP become factors.

Worse comes to worse, I understand her academic specialty was bankruptcy law.

ApatheticNoMore

10-1-19, 10:40am

Worse comes to worse, I understand her academic specialty was bankruptcy law

that's just book learning, people learn more through experience, our current President has actually declared bankruptcy a few times.

LDAHL

10-1-19, 11:03am

that's just book learning, people learn more through experience, our current President has actually declared bankruptcy a few times.

Both moral and financial. But that in itself doesn’t mean we can’t do worse.

Where’s Calvin Coolidge when we need him?

Teacher Terry

10-1-19, 1:08pm

Both warren and Biden are here tomorrow night. Wish they would have come separately so we could hear both speak. My Republican husband is leaning toward Biden so we will go to his.

ApatheticNoMore

10-2-19, 10:10am

I don't worry about how to pay if all someone's programs were enacted because 1) I think we always find a way to pay for what we want to (even though that seems mostly war and tax cuts) anyway but more more basically 2) all a candidates programs WILL NOT be enacted. It's worrying about a fantasy that is NEVER going to happen. It's a complete waste of time and a complete distraction.

Even enacting single payer would be such an uphill battle, never mind the composition of congress, health insurance companies are one of the top employers many places, some of these jobs would of course exist under single payer, if you are a nurse at Kaiser for instance. I'm not defending the system, I'm pointing out what single payer is up against. And yes I appreciate the Medicare for All bills we have (I believe both Sander's bill and Jayapal's bill), do provide severance for these employees. Of course single payer is also up against the corporate money (Warren not entirely wrong on there being corruption).

And I really have my doubts single payer will even be Warren's position in the general (should she be the candidate). But we will see if it happens. Bernie is a better bet on getting Medicare for All, as he is unwavering in pushing it and drawing attention to the issue. But it's a hard one, and even if we got it in full, all of a candidates other programs are not going to be enacted, fighting the single payer battle might drain much of their political capital depending (Obama and Bill Cllinton paid for pursuing healthcare reform, much short of single payer, perhaps it would be different with single payer now as times are different and people do want a solution, but maybe it wouldn't).

A much better question is: if you want a candidate to do all they can with just executive orders and staffing even (like Trump does, very aggressive that way, but for bad policy), who is it? If you want a candidate to do all they can even if the Dems get congress but however these are conservative (blue dog) Dems, who is it? Which candidate if any would help in flipping the Senate to the Dems (I don't think this is particularly obvious - this is probably better achieved by focusing specifically on the Senate and letting the Prez race do it's own thing).

A Medicare Advantage For All system rather than single payer might be what we end up with, it might be distinctly two tier like existing Medicare (which is still better than what you get before 65 and does at least cover all, but how it's reflecting existing inequalities will become a problem). With those who can pay more opting for traditional government run Medicare with private supplemental, and increasingly more people unable to pay more, because they aren't rolling in the dough, and so opting for a private HMO etc.. Because, in reality it's as much those who can afford it who opt for government health care , and those who can't that settle for a private plan, rather than the imagined reverse. Just see existing Medicare.

Yppej

10-2-19, 5:00pm

I always liked Bill Richardson's plan to gradually lower the eligibility age for Medicare. Get the oldest, sickest people out of the private market and premiums will stabilize or fall. Also some people could retire which in a recession helps open up jobs for the unemployed.

jp1

10-2-19, 9:15pm

I like richardson's idea as well. Especially when one reads the stats on the number of people who end up retiring before 65 because they get laid off and can't find other work.

In the long run I think getting more and more people out of the private market, and specifically the employer provided private market, would be good for the economy. I can only imagine how many people there are with an idea for "The Next Big Thing" who never pursue it because they can't risk losing their health insurance. Or they can't afford to buy it on their own, but if their idea was successful they'd eventually be creating enough tax revenue to more than offset any subsidy they received during their "start and grow the business" phase through medicare for all or whatever we come up with.

jp1

10-2-19, 10:23pm

catherine

10-2-19, 10:29pm

So, Bernie's heart issue. Will it affect his chances in the primary? I've already commented that while I don't have a hard definition of "too old" I think he's too old. And this pretty much seals that deal for me. But I already wasn't going to vote for him in the primary this time around (I did last time) so my opinion doesn't matter. I'm curious other people's thoughts.

Yeah, the NYT already has "Will this affect his candidacy" written into the headline, just to put that thought into people's heads. (Although I'm sure we don't need the Times to make us think about that, but I'm tired of mainstream media sidelining Bernie).

It's just a stent. It's not like he had quadruple bypass. Such a shame that this comes on the heels of the announcement that he outpaced all the other Democratic candidates last quarter in donations--and they were ALL grassroots donations.

jp1

10-2-19, 11:43pm

Campaigns are long. I suspect that all that’s going on doesn't help biden either despite the fact that he was actually pushing for stronger checks into what was going on at the time. The republicans may win that fake news argument.

Yppej

10-3-19, 5:11am

I know two guys who had heart attacks in their thirties and one who had one in his forties. My SIL had one in eighth grade. All are working now.

Teacher Terry

10-3-19, 11:56am

While people can recover quickly from heart problems I would think his age is going to make his recovery slower. We saw Biden last night and he did a great job. I am surprised that they didn’t make us go through a metal detectors or search purses. After the speech he started to shake hands in the crowd and after a few secret service pulled him out.

catherine

10-3-19, 12:58pm

So, I saw elect Bernie and make Liz his VP.

Rogar

10-9-19, 9:14am

ApatheticNoMore

10-9-19, 10:41am

I could be wrong, but it seems to me like it's coming down to Warren in light of recent events. Bernie's heart attack has emphasized his age vulnerability, and Trump's convoluted conspiracy theory investigation of Biden has cast a shadow on him.

This entirely depends on which polls are used, many still show Biden ahead by a bit, and Warren and Bernie a close tie. It seems Warren doesn't do as well with people under 45 or minorities (Biden doesn't do as well with younger people, but does pretty well with minorities. Bernie does well with both but less with older people).

The election season really needs to be shortened, by law, to I don't know 6 months max. At this point we have democracy by poll (ha when noone even answers from an unknown number almost at that) and then by cherry picking of polls it sometimes seems at that.

Tybee

10-9-19, 11:11am

So, I saw elect Bernie and make Liz his VP.
+1

I am looking for the bumper sticker! CurrentlyI have my 2016 Bernie with the 16 crossed out and 20 Sharpied in.

LDAHL

10-10-19, 3:09pm

I could be wrong, but it seems to me like it's coming down to Warren in light of recent events. Bernie's heart attack has emphasized his age vulnerability, and Trump's convoluted conspiracy theory investigation of Biden has cast a shadow on him.

Do you think the kerfuffle over her story about being fired for getting pregnant will do her much harm? Or can it just be dismissed as a sort of foundational myth like Dick Blumenthal’s Vietnam service, Clinton’s bold rush through a hail of bullets or Biden’s hardscrabble coal mining family? Or even her own previous Cherokee ancestry?

I suspect it will matter more in the general than the primaries.

bae

10-10-19, 3:12pm

The election season really needs to be shortened, by law, to I don't know 6 months max.

There would seem to be some serious First Amendment issues with that.

All that's going on right now is some private political organizations are running around trying to select their candidate.

Gardnr

10-10-19, 8:38pm

The election season really needs to be shortened, by law, to I don't know 6 months max.

France regulates: Even if the French have the feeling that they live in an almost quasi-permanent electoral campaign, the length of an official campaign is very brief. As a general rule, it only lasts for the two weeks preceding the first ballot and if necessary the week between the two ballots.[9 (https://www.loc.gov/law/help/campaign-finance/france.php#f9)] That would be BLISS!

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/campaign-finance/france.php

LDAHL

10-15-19, 12:24pm

catherine

10-15-19, 12:30pm

Another debate tonight. Will the 2-3 front runners cement their positions? Will the single digit crowd start launching Beto-style Hail Mary passes at guns or religion or the Electoral College or other hate objects in a desperate play for attention?

DH swears Trump will win in 2020 because the Dems have no Trumpesque candidate. However you feel about Trump, he stirs people. Is Biden going to stir people? We all know the mainstream media and moderate Dems are pushing for Biden, but Trump will eat his lunch. Unfortunately, Bernie's mild heart attack is going to make him vulnerable, and Liz is smart as a whip and may appeal to people with her policies, but lacks charisma.

As far as the second tier goes, there are some great candidates there, but their smoldering embers have not caught fire yet.

Our only hope that Trump will be defeated by the Never-Trumps who would vote Mickey Mouse in over The Donald

I can't wait for tonight.

JaneV2.0

10-15-19, 1:08pm

Elizabeth Warren has plenty of charisma, IMO. Her rally attendees seem to think so, too.

Biden is supposed to have some, but I don't see any. I guess it depends on the observer.

Whatever the opposite of charisma is (miasma? ;) ), Trump surely has it.

catherine

10-15-19, 1:16pm

Elizabeth Warren has plenty of charisma, IMO.

Hmmm... maybe to some. She definitely has passion, but I think her charisma may extend only to certain people who respect her life's work. DH (who I admit, is a bit Trumpian himself, but I love him anyway), thinks she comes off as a school marm. Unfortunately there are probably a LOT of male voters who are going to discount her for that reason alone. I may be totally wrong, but it's just an instinct. Kind of the Hillary effect, but instead of just coming off as the b... that everyone loves to hate, Liz is, as LDAHL once described her, the hall monitor.

LDAHL

10-15-19, 2:14pm

I could be wrong, but I don’t think this race will be settled by charisma. For one thing, I think Jane’s right about the subjectivity of charisma this round. There are several versions of it out there, none of which appeal to s decisive majority.

I also thing this election will ultimately be settled by people voting against what they dislike rather than for what inspires them. There are many and different reasons people could name for voting against Trump or the better-performing Democrats, but nobody has an overwhelmingly broad appeal. The electorate is too fragmented for that.

JaneV2.0

10-15-19, 2:38pm

Hmmm... maybe to some. She definitely has passion, but I think her charisma may extend only to certain people who respect her life's work. DH (who I admit, is a bit Trumpian himself, but I love him anyway), thinks she comes off as a school marm. Unfortunately there are probably a LOT of male voters who are going to discount her for that reason alone. I may be totally wrong, but it's just an instinct. Kind of the Hillary effect, but instead of just coming off as the b... that everyone loves to hate, Liz is, as LDAHL once described her, the hall monitor.

There are going to be a lot of people who will come up with any excuse not to vote for a woman. What would they prefer, one wonders, some weak, simpering fool? Plenty of those around. The caliber of women who could successfully compete for the highest office in the land are going to be smart, strong, and confident. (I do notice, however, that all the top female candidates tend to go around grinning like chimps, as is the expected norm for women in this country. Men are allowed to look like serious adults.)

iris lilies

10-15-19, 2:52pm

Jane if I refuse to vote for Hillary or Elizabeth Warren does that make me one of those people who will look for any excuse not to vote for a woman?

I don’t know if Elizabeth Warren has charisma because I haven’t seen her in video that I can remember, but I think she has a young face I think she’s cute. It always surprises me that she’s as old as she is which is what in her 60s late 60s?

Rogar

10-15-19, 2:54pm

I don't agree with everything Warren proposes but some of the campaign promises are not going to fly. Sort of like when Trump said the first thing he would do in office is get rid of Obama Care. On a basic level I think it would be good to have a female president.

I wonder if hypothetically speaking Trump was removed from office, how the GOP would handle their primaries. And if the favored Democrat's favorites would shift.

JaneV2.0

10-15-19, 3:00pm

Jean if I refuse to vote for Hillary or Elizabeth Warren does that make me one of those people who will look for any excuse not to vote for a woman?

I don’t know if Elizabeth Warren has charisma because I haven’t seen her in video that I can remember, but I think she has a young face I think she’s cute. It always surprises me that she’s as old as she is which is what in her 60s late 60s?

She's an attractive woman, aside from being surpassingly smart. What amazes me, as an old gimp, is the footage of her sprinting through the halls of Congress or dancing in Pride parades, rocking a rainbow boa (rainbowa?). She was born in '49.

iris lilies

10-15-19, 3:37pm

Moody’s created a presidential polling predictor. There’s three scenarios: economic outlook for the little guy, the stock market, and unemployment. They ran the predictor retroactively for all presidential campaigns and they hit every election win correctly except for the 2016 presidential election where the indicator showed Hillary won by a very narrow margin.

They ran their predictor program for 2020 election and it shows Trump wins by a landslide.

How about that stock market?! The Dow is up over 27,000 today.

JaneV2.0

10-15-19, 3:48pm

Hillary did win, by a reasonable margin. They didn't factor in Russia. Or cheating.

Rogar

10-15-19, 4:08pm

It’s in my playbook that T announces a trade deal with China at a strategic time before elections. He is just Biden his time for the right moment. Assuming he’s still president then.

LDAHL

10-15-19, 4:14pm

I wonder if hypothetically speaking Trump was removed from office, how the GOP would handle their primaries. And if the favored Democrat's favorites would shift.

If a president is successfully impeached, is he or she ineligible to run for the same office again?

Rogar

10-15-19, 4:28pm

If a president is successfully impeached, is he or she ineligible to run for the same office again?
I would assume the same. Then would Pence be the obvious fore runner or would there be a political scramble of opponents?

LDAHL

10-15-19, 4:36pm

Hillary did win, by a reasonable margin. They didn't factor in Russia. Or cheating.

People keep saying that, but it isn’t the case. She lost under the prevailing rules. You can blame Russian trolls, Bernie bros, the Electoral College, rogue county clerks or bad juju, but he won. He may be a bastard, but he’s not illegitimate.

Hillary did not win. Despite all the cognitive dissonance it created when she proved to be less than inevitable, she lost.

jp1

10-15-19, 5:29pm

While it os true that under the bizarre rules we run our presidential elections that hillary lost, i took jane’s comment (and she can correct me if i’m wrong) to mean that hillary, despite hillary having what many would consider to be megative charisma) got millions more votes. Some, but surely not all, of the people who refused to vote for her will be willing to vote for Warren.

bae

10-15-19, 8:14pm

If a president is successfully impeached, is he or she ineligible to run for the same office again?

"Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."

Alan

10-15-19, 10:01pm

Another debate tonight. Will the 2-3 front runners cement their positions?
After listening to the group for the past 2 hours, I'm convinced that if the Democratic base doesn't dump the top 3 and get on board with Boot-edge-edge and Gabbard they deserve another 4 years of Trump.

bae

10-15-19, 10:32pm

Rogar

10-15-19, 11:05pm

After listening to the group for the past 2 hours, I'm convinced that if the Democratic base doesn't dump the top 3 and get on board with Boot-edge-edge and Gabbard they deserve another 4 years of Trump.

i listened to the whole smear and had a similar take. They made the most sense to me, although I’m not so sure of what it would take to beat Trump. I wonder what the talking heads and polls will say now. Warren and Biden were disappointing.

LDAHL

10-16-19, 4:46am

Alan

10-16-19, 7:52am

They both seemed to make Warren squirm a bit over whether Medicare for All would raise middle class taxes.
Why can't she just say 'Yes, we will significantly raise taxes at every income level." What does she gain by her consistent redirects?

catherine

10-16-19, 8:29am

After listening to the group for the past 2 hours, I'm convinced that if the Democratic base doesn't dump the top 3 and get on board with Boot-edge-edge and Gabbard they deserve another 4 years of Trump.

With the tracking tool the NYT had available, I was tracking the time each candidate got, and I noticed that after Gabbard criticized the Times' and CNNs' treatment of her, she stayed at the very bottom--with only 4 minutes of speaking time vs. up to 15 minutes for Warren. I was wondering if that was payback, but then they did come around to asking her more questions at the end.

ETA: the final speaking time for all candidates. Only Steyer got less time than Gabbard.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/15/us/elections/debate-speaking-time.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

LDAHL

10-16-19, 9:03am

Why can't she just say 'Yes, we will significantly raise taxes at every income level." What does she gain by her consistent redirects?

Bernie was upfront about it.

Are we starting to see a moderate/progressive divide opening up?

And why did Harris make such a big issue of banishing Trump from Twitter? It seemed like a strange choice of a hill to die on to me.

Rogar

10-16-19, 10:34am

I thought a lot of the discussion was around how much government funding will expand in areas like health care, education, and a little on guaranteed income. And then how believable the ways to pay for those things seemed. You could sort of pick you flavor. I think fairly managing a wealth tax is likely to follow the same course of failure as it has in Europe. And I'm equally skeptical of a value added tax. I didn't hear much about climate change or managing national debt.

Alan

10-16-19, 11:10am

Are we starting to see a moderate/progressive divide opening up?

That seems to be the case, and I think it takes a lot of courage to appear as a moderate in that group.

And why did Harris make such a big issue of banishing Trump from Twitter?
I thought that was odd too, with such limited time to get a message across it seems she'd have something tangible to discuss, or perhaps not.

ApatheticNoMore

10-16-19, 11:29am

catherine

10-16-19, 11:46am

1) it will raise your taxes taken out of your paycheck, but you won't have to pay premiums which are also taken out of your paycheck
2) you won't have to worry about not having health coverage, finding out your insurance doesn't pay for that (sometimes as a surprise), not being able to see a specialist, or going broke due to healthcare expenses (even if you have insurance), staying at a job purely for the healthcare, losing a job and losing healthcare (not that there aren't other non-healthcare concerns in that circumstance)

gee, let me think about it.

Exactly. As someone on Medicare, I pay WAY WAY less (540/mo vs 1700/mo), and I get WAY WAY more. I do pay for supplemental (Medigap) but it's amazing. No copay, no deductible, DH goes to the doctor, walks in and walks out, and we get no bills on the back end.

PLUS, once we pull in the healthier, younger members of the population, the savings will be even more.

Come on, people. Why are we choosing layers and layers of middlemen, security based on golden handcuffs to a job you might hate, and prices that are driven by behind-closed-doors negotiations between people who are not paying out of their own pockets, but are looking only to profit from the negotiations??

Teacher Terry

10-16-19, 11:47am

Seems like a easy choice to me.

iris lilies

10-16-19, 11:52am

Exactly. As someone on Medicare, I pay WAY WAY less (540/mo vs 1700/mo), and I get WAY WAY more. I do pay for supplemental (Medigap) but it's amazing. No copay, no deductible, DH goes to the doctor, walks in and walks out, and we get no bills on the back end.

PLUS, once we pull in the healthier, younger members of the population, the savings will be even more.

Come on, people. Why are we choosing layers and layers of middlemen, security based on golden handcuffs to a job you might hate, and prices that are driven by behind-closed-doors negotiations between people who are not paying out of their own pockets, but are looking only to profit from the negotiations??
Aint the free shit from the government grand?

Alan

10-16-19, 11:53am

Seems like a easy choice to me.
Do you have inside knowledge on how much your federal income and payroll taxes will increase to pay the $3T or so per year it will cost. I haven't found anyone yet willing to tell us. Senator Warren asks us to let her be clear, yet she doesn't mean it.

catherine

10-16-19, 11:58am

Aint the free shit from the government grand?

It wouldn't be free. We would pay in taxes, but the endgame wouldn't be profit--it would be service to the citizens.

Teacher Terry

10-16-19, 12:19pm

I now pay 12k/ year for HI. I doubt it’s more than that.

JaneV2.0

10-16-19, 12:20pm

Aint the free shit from the government grand?

I've never understood how getting some return on the taxes we all pay--one way or the other--translates to "free shit," but I've always resented the waste and fraud that permeates the military-industrial complex, that we all pay for, whether we countenance war or not. Civilized countries all over the world provide health care and educations for their citizens, considering it an investment. We, apparently, would rather give money to people who don't need or deserve it--"free shit," if you will.

JaneV2.0

10-16-19, 12:23pm

Do you have inside knowledge on how much your federal income and payroll taxes will increase to pay the $3T or so per year it will cost. I haven't found anyone yet willing to tell us. Senator Warren asks us to let her be clear, yet she doesn't mean it.

I doubt taxes for the vast majority of the citizenry will increase much, if we re-institute progressive tax rates.

Alan

10-16-19, 12:39pm

I doubt taxes for the vast majority of the citizenry will increase much, if we re-institute progressive tax rates.Really? I think we'll double federal expenditures on the medicare for all promise and I have no idea how much free college, universal basic income and other promises will cost. None of it seems feasible to me without significant increases across the board. Bernie is the only one so far I've heard admit to that.

ApatheticNoMore

10-16-19, 12:45pm

They won't get all they say they will done realistically, but the U.S. does have the most expensive healthcare system in the world, so every other major economy has figured out how to spend less and cover more people. It's like we have no idea what we are doing. And most of the countries have far more real fiscal constraints than the U.S., which realistically has far fewer. And yet they make healthcare work. Maybe they are just vastly better run.

universal basic income

there is literally only a single candidate out of 12, polling 3%, running on this I think (or does Gabbard support also?) and they have a plan to pay for it via a VAT.

LDAHL

10-16-19, 1:23pm

I doubt taxes for the vast majority of the citizenry will increase much, if we re-institute progressive tax rates.

Given all those new trillions in spending, it’s hard to believe there are enough billionaires available to make that happen.

Yppej

10-16-19, 1:30pm

LDAHL

10-16-19, 2:04pm

There are not that many billionaires, but their wealth is extraordinary, with less than 1% of the population having the same wealth as the bottom 50%, if I recall the stats from the debate accurately. There are also wealthy companies not paying any taxes.

Their wealth is not extraordinary enough to make implementing a huge growth in government spending painless for the middle class. If people want a Scandinavian style welfare state, they will need to pay Scandinavian style taxes. Sanders is honest enough to admit that. Warren doesn’t seem to be.

Teacher Terry

10-16-19, 2:09pm

Nothing is free. Realistically we need to focus on HC. We can cut in other places to make that happen.

bae

10-16-19, 2:12pm

Nothing is free. Realistically we need to focus on HC. We can cut in other places to make that happen.

Well, let's start by cutting the military budget in half.

Yppej

10-16-19, 2:20pm

LDAHL

10-16-19, 2:51pm

For a while pent up demand for health care services people haven't been able to afford but need will offset the savings from eliminating insurance middlemen, but long term a single payer system will be more affordable with lower per capita costs and better outcomes. The current healthcare model is unsustainable.

Just explain it to the voters this way: We will outlaw private insurance and herd everyone into a single government system. Think of the Post Office without all that wasteful Fedex competition. This will allow us to save money by rationing some services and implementing price controls on others. We will also eliminate care our panel of experts considers unnecessary. Those of you who work will exchange higher taxes for whatever share of the premium you currently pay. But don’t worry, because you can trust us to make up the difference by taxing rich people. You won’t even notice the impact except in a good way. You may even be able to quit your job and devote your life to Expressionist Opera.

If the voters buy it, you’re in.

Alan

10-16-19, 3:03pm

ApatheticNoMore

10-16-19, 3:10pm

Medicare would cover 100%.

JaneV2.0

10-16-19, 3:13pm

A serious question for anyone who knows, I believe most people require supplemental insurance to make up for the difference between real costs and medicare reimbursements. The supplemental insurance policies are issued by non-governmental businesses. Will they be allowed to operate under a Medicare for All scheme and if not will we be stuck with out-of-pocket expenses of 20% for our medical care and all of our prescriptions?

The insurance companies got their foot in the door in some unholy agreement with Obamacare, and now we have mandatory supplemental insurance. I fervently hope that arrangement goes away with any new plan. For-profit takeovers, in my opinion, are nearly always a mistake.

Alan

10-16-19, 3:25pm

Medicare would cover 100%.I believe the average person currently spends less on out of pocket expenses when covered under employer provided health insurance than when covered under existing Medicare plan. Will Medicare for All require that 92% of the population increase their out of pocket costs when they lose choice?

Teacher Terry

10-16-19, 3:31pm

bae

10-16-19, 3:35pm

My daughter seems to be a big fan of the UK's NHS for her medical care. Then again, she's 22 and healthy. She does have to pay into the plan as a documented alien, but it seems cheaper than what we were paying here for her.

ApatheticNoMore

10-16-19, 3:58pm

Millions of people who work full time or part-time or contract or gig workers will get healthcare for maybe the first time (By the way driving for Uber/Lyft (true gig work) can be a 12 hour shift to make it, I know people who have done it when they couldn't find I.T. contract work. It's not cushy like an 8 hour day at the office.). Health care they wont' have to pass up because they can't afford to see a doctor.

They won't even need a big union (but can have one if they want), or a government job, or to work for a fortune 500 to be assured of decent coverage. Maybe some day they'll even get a few paid sick days to use to go to the doctor. Wow, one can dream you know, that sick people can go to the doctor. And if a few trust fund babies with no need to work, pursuing Expressionist Opera also get healthcare, well so will everyone, they won't be excluded.

ApatheticNoMore

10-16-19, 4:05pm

If you don’t buy supplements you will be stuck with the 20%. My sister in Chicago is paying 600/month for hers. A advantage plan is free or cheap but if you have a serious illness you pay more out of pocket. In addition you need a referral to go out of network or a specialist and people have died waiting for permission. Also you cannot just switch back to regular Medicare but must go through underwriting to go back. The big thing is that everyone would have insurance.

Sander's plan is 100% coverage as is the House bill. That's what Warren says she supports (Sander's plan). Tulsi has supported the House equivalent, so probably supports the same. Yang doesn't have his own plan, so may as well assume he supports the Sanders plan?

The rest aren't running on Medicare for All, I don't know the details of say Harris plan, but it's not a Medicare for All plan in her own words I believe.

JaneV2.0

10-16-19, 5:06pm

Your health care shouldn't depend on having an employer, or be subject to cancellation should you quit or be laid off.

Yppej

10-16-19, 5:18pm

Sanders is proposing an enhanced or improved Medicare for All that covers all medically necessary costs but not cosmetic procedures.

As to sick time, states are leading the way. My state recently put in a new tax to pay for short-term disability and leave to care for ill family members or a newborn. I have heard nothing but praise from everyone. It received support from our Democratic state legislature and our Republican governor.

bae

10-16-19, 5:23pm

Your health care shouldn't depend on having an employer, or be subject to cancellation should you quit or be laid off.

Yes - this business of tying healthcare to your employer is just foolish.

Rogar

10-16-19, 5:30pm

Word I get from folks who have gone on Medicare is that they have had trouble finding good doctors who will take the lower limits of medicare payments. I wonder if a the medicare option plan would create two quality levels of medical care.

After hearing at least two of the candidates rant about the high profits big pharma is making, I've wondered why I haven't bought pharmaceutical stocks and grown rich.

ApatheticNoMore

10-16-19, 5:41pm

Word I get from folks who have gone on Medicare is that they have had trouble finding good doctors who will take the lower limits of medicare payments. I wonder if a the medicare option plan would create two quality levels of medical care.

They should try the ACA if they really want almost no doctors that take a plan (no matter the plan). But this is about the only viable option for many people under the age of 65 now (and yes only just barely "viable" and hardly affordable) and really not working as one might think it would ..

frugal-one

10-16-19, 9:19pm

Another option is to utilize/expand the healthcare system currently in place for federal employees. It is already set up and works well.

Yppej

10-17-19, 6:35am

Word I get from folks who have gone on Medicare is that they have had trouble finding good doctors who will take the lower limits of medicare payments. I wonder if a the medicare option plan would create two quality levels of medical care.
My parents were living in Canada when single payer came in. Some doctors who were only in it for the money moved to the states. My own experience in Canada where I lived briefly as an adult is all the doctors cared, whereas in the US some have focused on the pharma salespeople in their office and tried to push pills on me and rush through appointments.

If the US institutes single payer most doctors will just have to accept it. How many doctors can a tiny but rich country like Dubai absorb?

Of course many of the candidates advocating for single payer also want to forgive student loan debt, which for medical school graduates is huge. I suspect the expensive medical malpractice model might change too. In Canada as I recall doctors work for the government so the states would provide the malpractice insurance if we follow that model (there the insurance is at the provincial not the Federal level). They are also unionized and sometimes strike for better wages, only providing emergency care until they successfully negotiate a new contract. Can someone who lives in Canada please advise if my memory is correct here?

In the US it is the nurses who I hear about striking.

Rogar

10-17-19, 7:46am

That's interesting, Yppej. I suppose whatever comes to be will somehow work out. If Medicare is optional, but not entirely single payer and like Buttigieg is promoting, I would assume the doctors will flee from it to the privately insured patients as much as your Canadian doctors fled to the U.S.? Although the issue around college debt might put a different perspective on things. There are enough successful health plans around the world, that I've wondered why we have to be locked into a Medicare for All template instead of adopting the best aspects of those that are working other places. At this point it is probably all speculation, anyway.

ApatheticNoMore

10-17-19, 10:33am

There are enough successful health plans around the world, that I've wondered why we have to be locked into a Medicare for All template instead of adopting the best aspects of those that are working other places

because we have been trying to do something to get a decent healthcare system for 2 decades plus (I mean our government with the Clintons and then Obama), and so at this point noone cares about utopian speculation on could this or that work, but just want something that DOES work.

One could say the ACA was an attempt on some level to move toward the Swiss system (also a very expensive system, but only the 2nd most expensive - we're #1). But if that intent was ever there, it was BUNGLED SO BADLY by corporate influence (inability to regulate like they do etc.) that we didn't get that regardless. (They are also a very different society, much richer than us).

People see corporate money corrupting everything plus being very expensive to the taxpayer (single payer is the cheapest way to achieve universal coverage) unless it is taken out of the equation entirely, attempts to work with it have not produced a decent healthcare system.

Everyone else is just saying "give us another chance to make backroom deals with the insurance companies and the pharma companies etc. and see how it works out this time". Yea only we've given them chances at that already.

LDAHL

10-17-19, 10:41am

You will never please all the people all of the time. One person’s “no one left behind” is another’s “no one can escape”. But we can at least be honest about our positions. If mentioning tax increases is treated like saying “Beetle Juice” three times, politics becomes a weird sort of child’s game. There are a number of pundits out there saying it was wrong to even ask Warren the question. As if refusing to talk about it would make it go away. I’m beginning to think that whenever Warren says “Let me be clear” we can expect some smoke to be blown our way. Brings you in mind of Nixon’s “let me make one thing perfectly clear”.

One thing about Bernie: he may be almost violently wrong on any number of issues, but he is willing to state his position. Nor has he issued any revisions to his personal history. You have to respect that.

Rogar

10-18-19, 9:24am

because we have been trying to do something to get a decent healthcare system for 2 decades plus (I mean our government with the Clintons and then Obama), and so at this point noone cares about utopian speculation on could this or that work, but just want something that DOES work...

Yes, would suspect there was some discussion about how to package some version of a single payer plan and Medicare was something people had some comfort level around. Medicare for All isn't turning out to be that popular in the polls and among my more liberal friends and if it's one of Warren's main talking points, it might work against her. Maybe it just isn't packaged correctly because the Medicare option or expanding the ACA seem more popular. Though I be more in favor of just white boarding the whole thing and coming up with something better.

Then, I think there could be a general vagueness for most people about what the wealth tax that she is proposing really is. My version without looking anything up is that it basically assesses a person's net worth and if it's is over a certain amount you get slapped with a new tax. That sounds like an accounting nightmare for a wealthy person with lots of investments and business assets with lot's of chances to play the system.

LDAHL

10-18-19, 10:29am

Then, I think there could be a general vagueness for most people about what the wealth tax that she is proposing really is. My version without looking anything up is that it basically assesses a person's net worth and if it's is over a certain amount you get slapped with a new tax. That sounds like an accounting nightmare for a wealthy person with lots of investments and business assets with lot's of chances to play the system.

Even if she were to overcome the political and constitutional roadblocks, there would seem to be a lot of practical difficulties. Assessing and arguing over what’s included in “net worth” will create major career opportunities for lawyers, accountants. bureaucrsts and art appraisers. I would think it would also create strong incentives to move wealth offshore, or develop new trust and estate strategies.

Yppej

10-18-19, 10:43am

Rogar

10-18-19, 11:43am

[QUOTE=Yppej;336024]I'm sure wealthy people calculate their net worth all the time. Businesses certainly do. I have done it myself humble though my circumstances are.[QUOTE]

When a business calculates value, would it be book value or include goodwill, which is the common value for the sale of a business and is often sizable and difficult to determine. Would there be a rush to collectibles like art or cars or maybe gold or other precious metals? All difficult to verify. How about trusts? Maybe there is an easy way. I'm sure Warren will clarify sometime.

Alan

10-18-19, 12:04pm

When a business calculates value, would it be book value or include goodwill, which is the common value for the sale of a business and is often sizable and difficult to determine. Would there be a rush to collectibles like art or cars or maybe gold or other precious metals? All difficult to verify. How about trusts? Maybe there is an easy way. I'm sure Warren will clarify sometime.
Oh, I don't know if she really needs to clarify anything on the wealth tax front. The cynical part of me believes she's building a sort of perverse goodwill for her political brand by promoting class divisions, which has always been popular among a large percentage of the Democratic base. She doesn't have to actually follow through as mis-spent political capital may not be recoverable.

I'd be more interested in details around Bernie's desire to eliminate billionaires. When he starts gesturing with those wild eyes and spittle flying I believe he really means it.

Yppej

10-18-19, 12:30pm

Trump also promotes class divisions - "I love uneducated people" etc.

LDAHL

10-18-19, 12:33pm

I'm sure wealthy people calculate their net worth all the time. Businesses certainly do. I have done it myself humble though my circumstances are.

As to illegality, how is this different than the excise tax I have to pay on my car?

It’s not that simple. There is a lot of wiggle room in what a reasonable valuation basis should be.

Valuation is a tricky business, and some very smart CPAs make a pretty good living at it.

My understanding was that state and local governments can tax property that state laws permit, but that there were constitutional bars to taxing property rather than income.

LDAHL

10-18-19, 12:35pm

Oh,
I'd be more interested in details around Bernie's desire to eliminate billionaires. When he starts gesturing with those wild eyes and spittle flying I believe he really means it.

I think it has something to do with walls and blindfolds.

Alan

10-18-19, 12:43pm

I think it has something to do with walls and blindfolds.
Well, it got Che Guevara's face on lots of t-shirts and black light posters.

Rogar

10-18-19, 2:11pm

Bernie is on the wealth tax on net worth also. I had to look it up.

"It would start with a 1 percent tax on net worth above $32 million for a married couple. That means a married couple with $32.5 million would pay a wealth tax of just $5,000.
"The tax rate would increase to 2 percent on net worth from $50 to $250 million, 3 percent from $250 to $500 million, 4 percent from $500 million to $1 billion, 5 percent from $1 to $2.5 billion, 6 percent from $2.5 to $5 billion, 7 percent from $5 to $10 billion, and 8 percent on wealth over $10 billion. These brackets are halved for singles.
"Under this plan, the wealth of billionaires would be cut in half over 15 years which would substantially break up the concentration of wealth and power of this small privileged class."

LDAHL

10-18-19, 2:21pm

iris lilies

10-18-19, 2:28pm

We record a snapshot of our net worth each December 31. For financial instruments it us easy enough to get the daily market value, but for tangible assets like real estate, not so much.

Just this week DH’s family are discussing the trust lawyer’s valuation of their dad’s farm which varies quarter of a million $ from a more conservative but respected valuation.

If Ms Warren gets her way, sounds like I need to move investments out of financial instruments to something more— fluid shall we say.

LDAHL

10-18-19, 3:58pm

Oh, I don't know if she really needs to clarify anything on the wealth tax front. The cynical part of me believes she's building a sort of perverse goodwill for her political brand by promoting class divisions, which has always been popular among a large percentage of the Democratic base. She doesn't have to actually follow through as mis-spent political capital may not be recoverable.

I'd be more interested in details around Bernie's desire to eliminate billionaires. When he starts gesturing with those wild eyes and spittle flying I believe he really means it.

We record a snapshot of our net worth each December 31. For financial instruments it us easy enough to get the daily market value, but for tangible assets like real estate, not so much.

Just this week DH’s family are discussing the trust lawyer’s valuation of their dad’s farm which varies quarter of a million $ from a more conservative but respected valuation.

If Ms Warren gets her way, sounds like I need to move investments out of financial instruments to something more— fluid shall we say.

Do you include an estimate for the present value of such income streams as pensions, annuities or social security?

iris lilies

10-18-19, 4:38pm

Do you include an estimate for the present value of such income streams as pensions, annuities or social security?

Nope.

I measure only our assets that would survive as part of our estate if we both drop dead tomorrow.

Yppej

10-25-19, 8:12pm

Ryan is out. We're down to 18 Democrats and 4 Republicans.

iris lilies

10-25-19, 8:31pm

Yppej

10-25-19, 8:34pm

IL it's $50 million.

Alan

10-25-19, 9:09pm

I dont know what Elizabeth Warren’s number is for assets to tax but I am sure we are way below it.

but once the mechanism is in place to measure and report assets, the slide can move down toward me. No thanks.Of course it will eventually get to you and me. Warren and Sanders are currently competing with each other to see who can spend the most public money. I believe that both are promising somewhere in the vicinity of $50T or more of new spending over 10 years while their wealth taxes are expected to pull in somewhere between $2T and $4T during that same period. My guess is they'll need to nationalize private retirement accounts in order to make up part of the difference and I have no faith in their supporters admitting that would be a bad thing.

Teacher Terry

10-25-19, 9:25pm

I don’t for one second believe they will want to nationalize private retirement accounts and we have them. However, I am not in favor of increasing our national debt. I would be in favor of redirecting money from some government areas to others. We definitely can’t afford everything being proposed. We as a country could spend our money more wisely.

Yppej

10-27-19, 3:52pm

Today I heard Bill Weld speak. I liked him enough to vote for him for governor and still like his views but his candidacy is not going anywhere. There was no enthusiasm for him. The moderator had to prompt the audience to clap for him and the applause was tepid. I walked right past him to get into the room but got a standoffish vibe and did not try to shake his hand. The entire event was stuffy and patrician.

LDAHL

10-27-19, 3:57pm

Of course it will eventually get to you and me. Warren and Sanders are currently competing with each other to see who can spend the most public money. I believe that both are promising somewhere in the vicinity of $50T or more of new spending over 10 years while their wealth taxes are expected to pull in somewhere between $2T and $4T during that same period. My guess is they'll need to nationalize private retirement accounts in order to make up part of the difference and I have no faith in their supporters admitting that would be a bad thing.

Even if we elect to become a woker and broker country, I don’t think we will see the bald nationalization of private retirement assets. It will more likely take the form of a death of a thousand cuts. Higher income taxes. Value added taxes. Financial transaction taxes. Higher payroll taxes. The insidious wealth tax that is a targeted inflation policy. The more explicit wealth taxes proposed by Sanders and Warren will no doubt be defined down to the Kulak level as the needs of “the common good” dictate.

Rogar

10-27-19, 7:13pm

The theory that I think I've heard Bernie try to explain on Medicare for All is that you might pay more taxes, but the cost savings by not paying for health insurance and any other savings by streamling the medical system could be a wash or actually put more money into peoples pockets. That's the theory anyway. Tax is a four letter word in a lot of voters minds and I am not sure they are hearing what he is trying to say. But I'm not sure how it would all work either.

I think it's too early to judge how this would all work. They're obviously being pressured to provided more details and there are a few things like Medicare for All that are turning out to be not so popular. An alternative would be to just ramp up national debt. It seems popular these days.

frugal-one

10-27-19, 7:23pm

Alan

10-27-19, 7:30pm

See the national debt has risen by 26% just this past year. Talk about spending!
Yep, we need to insist that Congress get back in the business of creating annual budgets rather than going with continuing resolutions every few months. Having a life long Democrat as head of the Republican party has just exacerbated the problem.

frugal-one

10-28-19, 10:12am

Yep, we need to insist that Congress get back in the business of creating annual budgets rather than going with continuing resolutions every few months. Having a life long Democrat as head of the Republican party has just exacerbated the problem.

Insisting on building a stupid wall has exasperated the problem!!! Whoa.... you actually said something against trump? Finally seeing the light?

Alan

10-28-19, 10:32am

Insisting on building a stupid wall has exasperated the problem!!! Whoa.... you actually said something against trump? Finally seeing the light?
You haven't been paying attention.

LDAHL

10-28-19, 11:15am

You haven't been paying attention.

There seems to be a sort of reflexive with-us-or-against-us mindset out there. I’ve been accused of being a Trump supporter as well; basically for being insufficiently enthusiastic for the agenda of his enemies on the left. They seem to have difficulty conceiving of a third position.

I consider myself to be in the never-Trump conservative camp. Clinton labels me “deplorable” and Trump refers to me as “human scum”. I like to think I’m despised by all the right people.

Rogar

10-28-19, 11:32am

I noticed Bernie is considering proposing medical pot as part of his medicare for all plan. I'm surprised some ambitious politician hasn't jumped onto taxing pot. It obviously won't happen as long as it's technically illegal, but it would be a cash cow.

JaneV2.0

10-28-19, 11:38am

catherine

10-28-19, 11:44am

It's taxed to death here.

Same in NJ.

Rogar

10-28-19, 11:46am

State taxes only. The feds have yet to realize the opportunity.

For that matter the federal gas tax hasn't been raised for decades, but the states seem to be doing their own thing.

rosarugosa

10-28-19, 1:11pm

There seems to be a sort of reflexive with-us-or-against-us mindset out there. I’ve been accused of being a Trump supporter as well; basically for being insufficiently enthusiastic for the agenda of his enemies on the left. They seem to have difficulty conceiving of a third position.

I consider myself to be in the never-Trump conservative camp. Clinton labels me “deplorable” and Trump refers to me as “human scum”. I like to think I’m despised by all the right people.

I consider you and Alan and IL to be "sane conservatives." That's a far cry from being Trump supporters.

bae

10-28-19, 1:17pm

I consider you and Alan and IL to be "sane conservatives." That's a far cry from being Trump supporters.

I don't see how a conservative would support Trump.

LDAHL

10-28-19, 1:55pm

I consider you and Alan and IL to be "sane conservatives." That's a far cry from being Trump supporters.

I think one of our biggest contemporary problems is a sort of binary good/evil view of the world that only allows for two tribes. There seems to be a visceral need to demonize the other side, as well as purge your own ranks of heretics of the RINO or Republican-lite variety. This way of thinking makes it impossible to accept any goodwill on the part of the opposition. It permits no appreciation of the ideas of the other side, it only has enough intellectual heft to impugn character and motives.

I think Bernie is an honorable, even an admirable guy who happens to espouse some truly terrible ideas. I think Trump is a truly despicable guy who has gotten a few things right. I don’t believe in the sort of guilt by association thinking that I’ve heard referred to as “the politics of cooties”.

iris lilies

10-28-19, 2:38pm

I consider you and Alan and IL to be "sane conservatives." That's a far cry from being Trump supporters.

Ah, I guess we are “good conservatives” like good Negroes of the past.

I do not hate everything Trump does so in a black-and-white world that might make me a Trump supporter. I don’t know, frugal-one, care to weigh in?

rosarugosa

10-28-19, 2:55pm

I think one of our biggest contemporary problems is a sort of binary good/evil view of the world that only allows for two tribes. There seems to be a visceral need to demonize the other side, as well as purge your own ranks of heretics of the RINO or Republican-lite variety. This way of thinking makes it impossible to accept any goodwill on the part of the opposition. It permits no appreciation of the ideas of the other side, it only has enough intellectual heft to impugn character and motives.

I think Bernie is an honorable, even an admirable guy who happens to espouse some truly terrible ideas. I think Trump is a truly despicable guy who has gotten a few things right. I don’t believe in the sort of guilt by association thinking that I’ve heard referred to as “the politics of cooties”.

Yes, the real world is seldom so black and white. This binary good/evil thinking makes me despair of ever seeing the kind of cooperative attitude that is necessary to getting things done.

rosarugosa

10-28-19, 2:57pm

Ah, I guess we are “good conservatives” like good Negroes of the past.

I do not hate everything Trump does so in a black-and-white world that might make me a Trump supporter. I don’t know, frugal-one, care to weigh in?

IL: I didn't say you were good, just sane, lol. :laff:
Trump has done some things that were OK in my book too, but you know what they say about the broken clock.

iris lilies

10-28-19, 3:05pm

IL: I didn't say you were good, just sane, lol. :laff:
Trump has done some things that were OK in my book too, but you know what they say about the broken clock.
Haha, ok!

LDAHL

10-28-19, 4:05pm

Yes, the real world is seldom so black and white. This binary good/evil thinking makes me despair of ever seeing the kind of cooperative attitude that is necessary to getting things done.

A few weeks ago, Biden made some remarks about working with a couple of politicians with a segregationist past. I don’t know what the issue was. Around the same time, Ellen DeGeneres attended a football game with GW Bush. In both cases they were attacked for consorting with the enemy.

I think Churchill said something about how if Hitler invaded Hell he would find something nice to say about the Devil in the House of Commons. I think politics should work more along those lines. When I hear people say they could never be friends with someone in the opposing camp, I feel a brief twinge of despair.

frugal-one

10-28-19, 5:00pm

You haven't been paying attention.

Must not have been.

frugal-one

10-28-19, 5:03pm

There seems to be a sort of reflexive with-us-or-against-us mindset out there. I’ve been accused of being a Trump supporter as well; basically for being insufficiently enthusiastic for the agenda of his enemies on the left. They seem to have difficulty conceiving of a third position.

I consider myself to be in the never-Trump conservative camp. Clinton labels me “deplorable” and Trump refers to me as “human scum”. I like to think I’m despised by all the right people.

I consider myself a never trump supporter. You come across many times as being in his camp. As stated many times before, I have voted for both parties (don't see the point, however, in voting for a third party who doesn't have a chance of winning). I have always tried to vote for whom I believe will do the best job.

frugal-one

10-28-19, 5:07pm

A few weeks ago, Biden made some remarks about working with a couple of politicians with a segregationist past. I don’t know what the issue was. Around the same time, Ellen DeGeneres attended a football game with GW Bush. In both cases they were attacked for consorting with the enemy.

I think Churchill said something about how if Hitler invaded Hell he would find something nice to say about the Devil in the House of Commons. I think politics should work more along those lines. When I hear people say they could never be friends with someone in the opposing camp, I feel a brief twinge of despair.

I agree. McCain was a guy that I admired even though I did not espouse many of his ideas.

LDAHL

10-28-19, 5:37pm

You come across many times as being in his camp.

The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. I can disagree with Trump but still feel Warren or Sanders would be terrible for the country. Being against them does not mean I’m pro-Trump, although there are many who seem to make that unfounded assumption.

LDAHL

10-28-19, 5:39pm

You come across many times as being in his camp.

The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, but it doesn’t follow from that that he is your enemy’s friend. I can disagree with Trump but still feel Warren or Sanders would be terrible for the country. Being against them does not mean I’m pro-Trump, although there are many who seem to make that unfounded assumption.

ApatheticNoMore

10-28-19, 5:43pm

One is a Trump supporter if they vote for Trump. If they don't vote for Trump then I see no need to think they are a Trump supporter.

frugal-one

10-28-19, 8:20pm

One is a Trump supporter if they vote for Trump. If they don't vote for Trump then I see no need to think they are a Trump
supporter.

Someone who speaks positively of trump or endorses his philosophies, IMO, is a trump supporter.

frugal-one

10-28-19, 8:23pm

The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. I can disagree with Trump but still feel Warren or Sanders would be terrible for the country. Being against them does not mean I’m pro-Trump, although there are many who seem to make that unfounded assumption.

I agree. I disagree with trump and with Warren and Sanders also. Mayor Pete is my candidate of choice.

Teacher Terry

10-28-19, 9:40pm

I would never stop being friends with someone over politics. I would just agree not to talk about it. People are more important.

LDAHL

10-29-19, 12:23pm

I see a Hillary Clinton 2020 run is not entirely out of the question. Some current and former Clinton courtiers are talking about it. She herself has said “Obviously I could beat him again”, with that old Clinton talent for parsing reality into something more congenial (if it weren’t for the damned rules, she would have won). Why else take time away from flogging her book about courage to promote conspiracy theories about a war veteran?

If Biden drops out, or even seems to weaken, will she ride in on a dark horse to save the day?

Teacher Terry

10-29-19, 12:47pm

She’s not going to run.

Alan

10-29-19, 12:58pm

She’s not going to run.
I agree, they were able to effectively bury the pedophile island story with Jeffrey Epstein's unfortunate suicide, they don't want to re-open that can of worms.

LDAHL

10-29-19, 1:18pm

She’s not going to run.

I know. It’s like hearing smallpox hasn’t been eradicated after all. Hopefully she just was missing the public eye. But still...

I hear the oddsmakers are ranking her alongside Andrew Yang. But if the past few years have taught us anything, unlikely stuff can happen.

frugal-one

11-1-19, 7:13pm

Just heard Beto dropped out!

bae

11-1-19, 7:25pm

Just heard Beto dropped out!

Good.

Tybee

11-1-19, 7:53pm

There's just so many of them.

Alan

11-1-19, 8:57pm

Kamala Harris is laying off staff and dropping steadily in the polls so she may be dropping next. I think it's funny she's complaining that people aren't ready for a woman of color to be president when this is just the primary and it's the Democrats she's complaining about. Y'all ain't as woke as you think.

bae

11-1-19, 9:00pm

I think it's funny she's complaining that people aren't ready for a woman of color to be president when this is just the primary and it's the Democrats she's complaining about. Y'all ain't as woke as you think.

A couple days ago the left-oriented broadcast media was full of hand-wringing interviews and discussion panels about "this is the most diverse team we've ever fielded, but what does it mean about us that our top 4 candidates are white!?!?!?!". Poor Mayor Pete, he's apparently chopped liver, being the wrong color, gender, and religion.

They even had some interviews with candidates, who had to engage in mandatory self-criticism for being ahead.

Yppej

11-2-19, 7:34am

There's just so many of them.

Wayne Messam raised $5.00 and spent $0.00 in the third quarter and is still running.

Tybee

11-2-19, 7:56am

Here are the nine who have made the Nov debate, according to FiveThirtyEight.com:

Nine candidates have made the November debate so farDemocratic presidential candidates* by whether and how they have qualified for the fifth primary debate, as of Oct. 24

NO. OF QUALIFYING POLLS
MET THRESHOLD FOR …

CANDIDATE
OVERALL ≥ 3%
EARLY STATE ≥5%
POLLS
DONORS
QUALIFIED

Joe Biden
17
12
✓
✓
✓

Bernie Sanders
17
12
✓
✓
✓

Elizabeth Warren
17
12
✓
✓
✓

Kamala Harris
17
6
✓
✓
✓

Pete Buttigieg
16
5
✓
✓
✓

Tom Steyer
8
0
✓
✓
✓

Andrew Yang
5
1
✓
✓
✓

Cory Booker
5
0
✓
✓
✓

Amy Klobuchar
4
0
✓
✓
✓

Beto O’Rourke
2
0

✓

Tulsi Gabbard
1
0

✓

Julián Castro
0
0

✓

Michael Bennet
0
0

Steve Bullock
0
0

John Delaney
0
0

Joe Sestak
0
0

Marianne Williamson
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I think Biden, Steyer, Harris, and Yang should drop out for reasons of patriotism. As in be a patriot and take the defeat for the good of your country; there are too many candidates. I don't think Booker or Klobuchar have a chance, but I think their presence in the debate is a good reminder of good things about the party. I worked for Sanders in the last election and would like to see a Sanders/Klobuchar ticket, followed by a Sanders/Gabbard ticket, followed by a Warren/not sure who ticket. But maybe Gabbard is going to have to drop out because of funding?

And good for Beto for dropping out.

Teacher Terry

11-2-19, 12:50pm

I am glad Biden is not getting out. The election will decide.

LDAHL

11-2-19, 2:06pm

With the field still so large, I could see a potential for opposition voters to cross over and vote for some of the less viable candidates in the primaries.

Teacher Terry

11-2-19, 3:07pm

You can’t do that here.

Tybee

11-2-19, 3:12pm

You can’t do that here.

Gosh, I never thought of this. But in most states where I have voted, you just go and declare yourself something and ask for the ballot. So if Trump has the nomination, wouldn't Republicans be able to go call themselves Democrats and get ballots and influence the primary election?

Teacher Terry

11-2-19, 3:37pm

You actually have to change parties ahead of time and it involves paperwork.

LDAHL

11-2-19, 3:56pm

I thought about two thirds of the states have open primaries now. I know we do in Wisconsin.

Yppej

11-2-19, 4:11pm

It can go the other way too, with Democrats and independents voting in the Republican primary in open states. Bill Weld is sure hoping they do.

Teacher Terry

11-2-19, 4:15pm

Ours is closed.

ApatheticNoMore

11-2-19, 4:16pm

I don't think anyone would have a clue who a non-viable candidate even is. Biden comes closest to a non-viable candidate, as I don't think he'd do well debating Trump. So if one wants to vote for Biden to ensure 4 more years of Trump, knock yourself out I guess (wow does that sound uninspiring). Maybe Castro. Even with Biden it's not certain who would win, because while he's a weak uninspiring candidate, the country may be getting real sick of Trump, and he has some base among African-Americans as well.

I suspect some long shot candidates might be quite viable if they actually won the primary which is not going to happen (the country might vote for a Gabbard or a Yang if it was the choice against Trump. Why? They have actual pluses that's why, against a Trump they'd come across as principled and articulate etc., they have real negatives too, but ...). The whole idea of choosing a viable candidate CEASED TO EXIST after Trump. If anyone should by all calculations not be a viable candidate, it's the person who is the sitting President of the U.S.

ApatheticNoMore

11-2-19, 4:22pm

It can go the other way too, with Democrats and independents voting in the Republican primary in open states. Bill Weld is sure hoping they do.

in CA only the Dems allow open primaries, not the Republicans. But I'd register R (and there is yet time here) if I thought Bill Weld had a chance in heck, but I just don't think he does. But it wouldn't be about picking a non-viable candidate so much as wanting someone halfway decent in there even if Republicans win, playing to limit losses really.

Teacher Terry

11-2-19, 5:20pm

I actually am totally undecided who I will vote for but would like to see all the candidates at the top stay in.

JaneV2.0

11-3-19, 9:55am

I agree, they were able to effectively bury the pedophile island story with Jeffrey Epstein's unfortunate suicide, they don't want to re-open that can of worms.

That "suicide" is highly questionable. It wouldn't surprise me if Epstein weren't silenced to prevent Trump's association with him (and alleged child rape) to be fully revealed.

(I'm old-fashioned; I give consenting adults having sex a pass, always. So I'm sorry Katie Hill was intimidated into quitting. I hope her ex and Republicans involved are prosecuted under revenge porn laws, if any exist where she's from.)

LDAHL

11-3-19, 10:44am

I'm old-fashioned; I give consenting adults having sex a pass, always. So I'm sorry Katie Hill was intimidated into quitting. I hope her ex and Republicans involved are prosecuted under revenge porn laws, if any exist where she's from.)

Doesn’t the House have rules pertaining to having sex with people who depend on you for a paycheck? Is “giving a pass” to people who violate such rules a legal option? How can “consent” be assumed when people leverage sexual relationships out of power relationships?

jp1

11-3-19, 12:13pm

There are rules against congresspeople having sex with staffers but none against having sex with campaign staffers, which is what Katie apparently did.

In any case, slut shaming her is not appropriate and revenge porning her is potentially illegal. Hopefully she can sue Red State out of existence.

Alan

11-3-19, 12:26pm

There are rules against congresspeople having sex with staffers but none against having sex with campaign staffers, which is what Katie apparently did.

That's the one she admitted to, knowing the other would result in immediate expulsion and a recall of her victim card, she denied the one with her staff member despite evidence to the contrary.

This case makes me think the MeToo movement was sexist because it's proponents have no interest in cases of women abusing their positions.

jp1

11-3-19, 12:48pm

Were you in her bedroom keeping track of her sex life? It’s interesting how you’re quick to accept hearsay when it involves a democrat but not when it involves a republican.

LDAHL

11-3-19, 1:19pm

There have been any number of male politicians of both parties who have resigned over allegations of sexual misconduct. I don’t think there is much of a double standard operating here, unless you assume a different standard should exist for campaign workers as opposed to government or corporate workers.

Hill could have stayed in office and relied on a lack of evidence in the hope or belief that the House Ethics probe would turn up nothing. It worked for a certain Supreme Court Justice.

Alan

11-3-19, 1:41pm

Were you in her bedroom keeping track of her sex life?
No, but I understand part of it was on display on Reddit and a trail of text messages fills in a few additional blanks.

It’s interesting how you’re quick to accept hearsay when it involves a democrat but not when it involves a republican.
Didn't you invoke Occam's Razor just a few days ago? In matters of opinion that's usually my guide.

LDAHL

11-3-19, 1:55pm

It can go the other way too, with Democrats and independents voting in the Republican primary in open states. Bill Weld is sure hoping they do.

Yes, but I think that would have been a more effective strategy for Democrats in 2025/2016 when the field was crowded and the odds of knocking out a given candidate would have been much better.

JaneV2.0

11-3-19, 2:17pm

According to the Daily Beast (Molly Jong-Fast 11-3):

What if the culture is shifting faster than the Congress? What if naked photos are just a fact of millennial life? What if Katie Hill is actually the victim of a pack of puritans? That said, this is not a cut and dried case: Hill had multiple partners, including a younger female staffer. Of course, so did another California congressman, Duncan Hunter, who had five affairs and used campaign funds to pay for them and shows no sign of resigning. Yes, there’s an obvious difference here: Hill dated a subordinate, which leads to a #metoo aspect. But the generational divide seems the most striking.

Unless she coerced the staffer, IMO, this is merely a matter of poor judgment. And a pervasive double standard--one for Republicans, one for Democrats.

jp1

11-3-19, 2:19pm

No, but I understand part of it was on display on Reddit and a trail of text messages fills in a few additional blanks.

Didn't you invoke Occam's Razor just a few days ago? In matters of opinion that's usually my guide.

Except as regards Vindman apparently.

I wonder when duncan hunter is going to resign.

Alan

11-3-19, 3:20pm

Except as regards Vindman apparently.No, it comes into play there as well and in my mind it all boils down to his uniform. It is improper for a professional military member to engage in political actions against their commander in chief. If one is going to do so and they have the option of doing it out of uniform, they should. The simple answer seems to be that optics were in play and as I stated earlier I'm not sure whether it was by his design or by someone elses.

We do know that optics are the most important aspect of the investigation so far, beginning with meetings being held in a SCIF, which is designed to ensure confidentiality, and is certainly failing in it's mission since the Democrats are leaking everything they consider to be advantageous to their efforts, sometimes even before the information is presented. By conducting the investigation in this manner, you know what they want you to know and nothing they don't want you to know. I'd think you'd be foolish to claim any hard and fast beliefs under those conditions.

I wonder when duncan hunter is going to resign. From what I know of that matter, I think he should. But I also wonder why the House Ethics committee, controlled by Democrats, haven't forced the issue. Maybe like in the impeachment hearings there's a better payoff in controlling the narrative than to act on the evidence? Just speculating....