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So I have decided I am not going to enable the hoarders in my life -- no more giving them stuff, no more asking for stuff, and no more requesting that they "store" something for me.
The tricky thing is that they offer to let me store stuff because they are so, so afraid I might give about some thing that I will want later.
They also try to give me stuff in general.
And when I am going to Goodwill something they will ask for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
I was going to offload to her our two canvas bags that were forced on us at the conference, but miracle of miracles, this particular conference planning committee had canvas bags made that have no date or city printed on them! They can be used for future conferences! I am unloading them on mext year's committee.
UL: just don't tell them when you are taking something to GW.
Yup, I have two confirmed and two suspected hoarders in my life. I will not enable them anymore!
I think you are beginning to see everyone as a hoarder :laff: Including those with an average amount of stuff kept clean.
I said it once before--we all have our hobby horses. !Splat!Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
So, here is the thing ultralite - I have a friend who knows I am a hoarder, and she is a declutterer, (I won't venture to call her a minimalist!). She has offered to help me Clear out, to which I have responded "no thank you, I can't do that because you will want to throw a bunch of stuff away."
but she also gives me stuff I can actually use. She is good about asking me about the stuff when it is not in front of me and encouraging me to think clearly (I have an extra gazinga, can you use it? Are you sure?)
if you just refuse to give the hoarder things, you are treating them like a child instead of an adult who can make their own decisions. Which isn't actually helpful.
i'm not saying you should dump all your useless crap on them, but if you have something you genuinely think they could use or would really like, there is no reason not to offer it.
What is so wrong with treating them like a child?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Well, it's rather disrespectful to start, beyond that, the way you asked makes me think explaining is probably going to be harder than I'm up for.
anybody in your life treat you like a child? How do you feel about that? Is it helpful?
CL: it is too bad you could not take up your friend on her offer. Your life and your DH's would be improved. Maybe someday you will be ready. Things do not equal love or companionship, etc.
I can tell the difference. The constellation of signs and symptoms is not that hard to recognize.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
Maybe it is just an appropriate way to treat someone under the circumstances. Could that me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I don't know. I am not really sure what that means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Unfortunately the space she wanted to help declutter was my studio. I would have ended up with a clean, neat, orderly open space suitable for Pinterest and devoid of all the random crap I find inspirational.
and I really am going to dump the last inch of dried up glaze out of the bottles into mason jars and remix it and recycle the bottles. Eventually. Glaze is expensive. She would definitely throw those away.
we walked through the basement with the friends who were visiting Sunday night. I created a touch of artsy whimsy down there that I find pleasing (dh - "can't we just throw this crap out?") and was a little embarrassed by it because - preceding comment. But the wife - who has a very nice, well decorated house suitable for entertaining, although UA would hate it - think southern living magazine - ran her hand across it and said "oh! I love this!" Reminding me that the middle ground is wide and it's ok to have stuff around that simply pleases the senses. Because not everybody is UA or my dh - whose senses are pleased by empty surfaces, bare floors, and blank walls.
that paragraph above with all the diversions is how my brain works all the time. Ideally I would have been able to layer the words in 3D to more accurately express myself. And include pictures. Which is basically what I do to my environment.
Hoarders tend to isolate themselves. They seem to think that stuff will keep them company but what it really does is builds a wall between them and their family, friends, and community. It really is a sad state to be in -- like another other mental illness or addiction, of sorts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
I have trouble understanding it sometimes, both mentally and emotionally.
Like I think: "Why would someone shoot heroin into their arm? That is insane, dangerous, and destructive."
But people do it.
So I ask a similar question: "Why would someone hoard? Hoarding is insane, dangerous, and destructive."
Again, people do it (about 6% of Americans are hoarders).
Count the first 20 people you see today. One of them is a hoarder.
It is only ok to treat someone "like a child" if you are responsible for them and they do not have adult capacity. If you don't feel it would be appropriate to seek a court appointed guardian for that person, then you should have the decency to treat them as a fully autonomous human being. It is not your role to protect people from themselves in ways that you have decided are needed without their input.
Honestly, I treat most children as adults in most situations.
try this - if you have say, a knife you want to get rid of, and your father expresses a need for such a knife, and you decide not to give it to him because you think he has too much stuff. (It's your knife to decide about, it's the paternalistic reason that is the problem) I see that as exactly the same as your father "helping" you fill out an absentee ballot because he thinks you don't understand the issues clearly. Or, to remove any shadow of voter fraud - helping you fill your closet because he thinks you do not own an appropriate range of clothing.
Any day I don't see 20 people is a good day.
i still think you are confusing collation with causation.
some hoarders are isolated because they are prevented from socializing by their stuff. others would lock people out of an empty room. Others invite people in anyway - they want socialization and don't care about/see the mess.
when you say to me "imagine what your life would look like if you had no stuff" the first image that springs to mind is me alone in the woods, minimally clothed and eating berries. there is no one with me. My ideal world would involve me never again seeing any people I don't know. Or also some of the ones I do know.
I was once discussing the farm with my brother in law and he said "so you can never go anywhere because you have goats." And I said "no. I have no desire to go anywhere. So I went ahead and got goats."
Are you a misanthrope?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Not everyone has every symptom or sign of hoarding, but they still hoard. I have yet to hear of someone who hoards but has none of the symptoms.
Hoarding is still a new problem, as far as study and treatment go.
So now, it is a situation like this:
Most hoarders exhibit certain personality traits or certain experiences or certain behaviors. So the dots are getting connected. Some might not apply to everyone.
So let us say I have 2 of the ten hoarding symptoms. I might not hoard. Maybe I have a concentration problem and an organizational problem. But let's suppose I am frugal and don't like to buy stuff and that I am just not materialistic. Again, I might not be a hoarder.
But let's say I have 8 of the 10 symptoms of hoarding. Chances are much stronger than I will be a hoarder.
No, I am not a misanthrope. I'm an extreme introvert - you seem to think that that is part of the pathology that needs to be fixed in my life, that I an suffering in some way because of it, that if I were not a hoarder, I would enjoy the presence of people. That I SHOULD enjoy the presence of people, that I am "choosing things over people." And what I am trying to tell you, is that I see those as two different choices. I am choosing "no people." And I am also choosing "too many things."
I am willing to agree with you that introverts are are more likely to be hoarders.
also, men are more likely to be sex offenders.
I am just questioning and exploring ideas.
This is not a question. It is an assertion. Similar to many other assertions you have made in which you equate voluntary social isolation with pathology.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
so let's explore your ideas.
hoarders tend to isolate themselves - yes. But I would say "most hoarders"
they seem to think that stuff will keep them company - perhaps, I have never met a hoarder who expressed that opinion. Have you? I have met many who prefer interacting with objects or animals to interacting with people. I consider that a valid preference. Some people want a job at the reception desk. Others would rather process orders alone from home.
what it really does is builds [sic] a wall between them and their family friends and community - in some cases this is done deliberately - I build this wall to keep you at bay - not the optimal solution, I would agree. When that wall is unwanted, then the wall is the problem. When the wall is a coping solution to another problem, then you need to step back and address *that* problem. If I turn my guest room into a storage unit because I want to keep the stuff and I don't want anybody to come visit, I'm not sure there is really a problem. Is there a problem if I get a smaller place because I don't want visitors to stay with me and just rent a small storage unit? An actual problem, not a conflict with your personal beliefs.
it really is a sad state to be in - "it" in this case appears to refer back to social isolation. If the person feels they have adequate human contact, why is it sad?
I think it is sad because you spend too much time thinking about stuff, trying to get rid of it, compromise with your DH who likes less, etc. So all your stuff is costing you time, precious life energy, thoughts, etc. There is a cost to everything that we do or don't choose in our lives.
Oh, the hoarding is sad I guess (or I have some other words for it) but the being alone isn't sad.
i love my dh. I enjoy having him around pretty much all the time. But he used to travel for work when the kids were younger. And now he doesn't. And sometimes I fantasize about him having to travel some time now that the kids are out of the house and me getting to stay home all week all by myself and not go anywhere.....
he'd probably try to convince me to come along.
I read somewhere--can't find it now--that introverts see people and things as interchangeable, more or less. Their brains don't light up any more when they see people, as extroverts' brains do. Not everyone is yearning to spend more time with other humans when there are books, animals, and yes things that give them more pleasure. I think it's sad that people can't just be who they are without a lot of armchair psychologizing by other people. (Also, books, animals, and things aren't always taking your inventory, judging, and gossiping about you. Win, win, win.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
I realize that it is fine for people to want to be alone, etc. No big deal. I find the hoarding part sad because so much time, energy gets sucked down the drain worrying etc about things.
Since we have semi-retired I look forward to having the house to myself occasionally and so does my DH. I have had friends that like animals more then people-no big deal either.
I agree that disorganization or hoarding may waste time, but so can dealing with people. I often observed that half of any given work day was consumed by gossip or other pointless chatter. So much of life--sitting in traffic, food prep, housework, working for a living--can be seen as wasted time. Maybe we spend an hour or day doing what we feel is meaningful. Maybe "meaningful" isn't what it's all about. (I have no idea what it's all about, really.)
People do waste much time complaining at work. That is one of the things i love about being semi-retired and working from home is that I am in charge of my time.
I believe it was H.L Mencken who said:Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
"For every complex question there is a simple answer. And it is wrong."
When folks say "Why can't we just let people be who they are?!" I roll my eyes. Why? Because that it one of H.L.'s wrong and simple answers.
Almost all "just" statements are as such.
"He is just a funny guy!" But why is he funny?
"She is just a sad lady." But why is she sad?
And there is so, so much that goes into the creation of a personality that it, frankly Jane, is not as simple as "just let people be who they are!"
So when someone likes stuff more than people, I wonder why they do so. Would they like other people more than stuff if they were raised differently? If they went to a different school? If they had better friends? If they had grown up with siblings or not? Etc.
Ya dig?
Maybe if you worried less about people taking your inventory, judging, and gossiping about you then maybe you'd have less affinity for stuff and like other folks more. Or, dare I say it...attract better people into your social circle?
Personally I believe what Daniel Suelo has said:
"What other people think about you is none of your business."
I'm becoming more introverted the older I get. And I'm a minimalist.
These traits come in many combinations.
The friend who wanted to help clean up the studio -- I wish she instead had offered to help in other ways. Such as "every time you have a carload of stuff for goodwill call me and I'll drive it in for you." Or "I'll bring my truck over and haul your big pile of trash to the recycling for you."
Something practical and helpful that stayed out of the decision making process. This would be true help.
I think Jane means you UL.Quote:
I think it's sad that people can't just be who they are without a lot of armchair psychologizing by other people. (Also, books, animals, and things aren't always taking your inventory, judging, and gossiping about you. Win, win, win.)
Chicken Lady doesn't need to be picked apart in public by you, just because you are curious/nosy as to what makes her tick. She's under no compulsion to answer your invasive questions, though she has been very gracious in doing so.
So if we're exploring questions, as you say UL, why does someone who is a minimalist and says they don't shop feel the compulsion to count and inventory what they own every week or two? If you know you haven't added, why keep counting? Did you know that counting things over and over is part of the OCD spectrum? Why are you so OCD? Do you think if you had better friends growing up, you wouldn't be so OCD? Should someone treat you just like a child and tell you that you are being silly for counting? Should someone who knows better take away your spreadsheet?
Just exploring here. ;)
Sometimes my friend brings me food, because she lives alone and likes to cook. That is very helpful. She also gives me objective feedback on my progress/backsliding as she is not here often and able to look at the physical environment with no emotional involvement. And she participates in my occaisional need to have a conversation with a normal human about wether or not something should be thrown away without laughing or looking at me like I am an idiot. (I think that is helpful, although sometimes I set something aside to figure out "when Toni comes" - which could be a month as I never invite her over, she just shows up sometimes.) I am pretty good at hauling the stuff to goodwill.
i don't think I've ever been called "gracious" before - lol. I'm guessing it's my irl "thanks for stopping by, now when are you leaving?" Vibe. Ultraliteangler started this thread, so I feel like we're in his house. His house, his rules. You don't like it.... Also, he makes me think.
i am am dissapointed at not getting responses to my reflections on introversion and hoarding though - i really do want to know why you seem so intent on tying the two together and painting them with the same brush.
another thought along those lines - I have two daughters. Both are what I would call high extroverts. The older one is a minimalist, married to a "keeper" (I don't think he's a hoarder, but he's only 25...) who loves to entertain. The younger one has such a strong need to be around other people that she sometimes lets them treat her badly and forgives easily. When she had trouble lining up a college roommate because her friends were moving off campus (I can't move off campus, I'll be away from everything) I suggested a single and she was horrified. She chose a potluck transfer student instead. That is the one who worries me because I see strong hoarding characteristics in her relationship to stuff. My uncle who hoarders is also very social.
Okay, herbgeek -- watch and learn!
She can mean me if she wants. My response is still valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
This is a thread about recovering hoarders. We talk about symptoms, signs, causes, reasons for, and other issues surrounding hoarding and hoarders, and how this might relate to simple living.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
I agree. She can stop answering questions. No problem there. That is her choice. I also agree that she is quite gracious and -- I would say -- civic minded to answer questions, dispute assertions, and explore ideas here. I certainly appreciate it.
Ummm... I don't count things every week or two. Recently I bought a new bike because my old one was uncomfortable and I do a lot more riding now. But that was Monday. I have not gotten around to adding it to my spreadsheet yet, though I will by tomorrow night. I only adjust the count in my spreadsheet when I add or subtract something, which is not often because -- as you noted -- I don't really shop and I am a minimalist.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
Uhhh... I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
That would not surprise me, but again -- I don't count things over and over. That actually seems like it would be really weird and pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
This is a loaded question. Imagine if I asked you this: "Why do you kick puppies?"Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
See how the question implies something that has not yet been proven?
I think that better friends growing up would have had a massive effect on the trajectory of my life. But the OCD thing that you have dreamed up about me does not fit the bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
If someone wants to treat me like a child then they can if they want. That would be a dumb *ss waste of their time though. If someone wants to take away my spreadsheet -- and I assume you mean steal it -- then that would be unfortunate. But I don't have many things, so I could make a new one in like 20 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
Good!Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
I have reflected on your questions about introversion and hoarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Here is a thought: Maybe introversion can make hoarding worse, or make it faster -- like an introvert has more time to hoard than someone who is out and about interacting with friends often.
But you may be right, and perhaps introversion is not a causal factor in hoarding. This is possible.
My mom is extroverted. I thought that perhaps she was an exception who missed that trait but had all the others.
Then I thought about my significant other, who I suspect is a hoarder. She is also extroverted. '
So I just don't know. I think after another decade of research we'll have a lot more knowledge about hoarders. So much is still speculative.
Tell me what makes you see hoarding characteristics in your daughter's relationship to stuff.
She acquires easily - if you offer her something, she will pretty much take it. She always rescued her siblings cast offs, she anthropomorphizes, she has difficulty discarding things because they might be useful or because they have an emotional connection to a person for her, she has the creative/artistic trait going which leads to hoarding of supplies, she loves to shop (I do not love to shop because stores are full of people) she has difficulty making decisions about things, and she keeps her environment messy and cluttered.
Because she is a young woman, being out and about and having many friends contributes to her acquiring - so many opportunities to shop, so many gifts....
also so random thought - my other two children had "comfort objects" as babies and outgrew them. This one never attached to anything. Her family has always been her "comfort object" to the point where going away to college was a significant traumatic event.
You say your mom is extroverted, but she doesn't want people in the house. Do you think an outside observer would consider her an extrovert based on her behavior? I lean toward unwanted social isolation being an effect of hoarding, rather than introversion being a cause. I think being an introvert and hoarding might be like being male and ADD.
Yeah, that is a tough situation with your daughter. What can be done?
My dad does not want people in the house. My mom does not mind as long as she thinks they won't judge her. She does not want me in the house because I judge her. She also thinks I am going to take pics of the place and turn her in -- then the house could be condemned and/or I would get her dogs taken away.
Aha, here is a revelation.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
No, you tell US what makes you see hoarding characteristics in your SO's relationship to stuff.Quote:
...Tell me what makes you see hoarding characteristics in your daughter's relationship to stuff....
I am worried about my Significant Other and her clutter, her relationship to stuff.
Her closets are overflowing. She has piles and piles of clothes in her basement. She cannot park in her garage because it is so full of stuff.
She has a bedroom ("the paper room") where she keeps all sorts of papers, some that need keeping (legal documents, etc.) but also so many that don't need keeping. The room is dedicated to this paper clutter.
She also buys massive amounts of groceries and loves to shop, especially for groceries.
She has problems concentrating and difficulty organizing things. She likes crafts, though she does not do them much, rather she buy and keeps lots of crafting equipment.
I do not like to go to her house because the clutter drives me crazy. I have tried to talk to her about it.
I explained that being a minimalist with no clutter has made me 20% happier in life. This is huge for someone like me who was born with the blues.
She had a "packing party" which I attended. I wrote about it on here.
But she ended up throwing some stuff away, donating other stuff, and giving away a few things. But she also just unpacked and kept tons of stuff and then just stuffed many of the boxes we all packed for her back into her closets.
I am obviously frustrated about the situation. And I do note the irony that I have somehow ended up with a significant other who is at least a major clutter bug and is possibly a compulsive hoarder.
The thing is, I am not willing to give up that 20% happiness increase. I just can't. I need it. I need it to keep on keepin' on in life.
So if we stay together, it'll be me living alone and her visiting me at my place in perpetuity.
This reminds me of the radio interview I heard last night from Terry Gross on NPR. She interviewed an author who wrote a book about her marriage to a Navy guy. The author said (paraphrasing) "Because my dad was gone half of my life working on an oil rig, I knew i didnt want to marry someone who was gone from our family."
So, she married a Navy guy, having met him just after he completed officer training school. Yeah, that worked out well! Not. At least the stress and problems of his absences gave her somethng to write about, there is that.
And here you are UL, obsessed with people who collect, people who hoard. And there you are, in this relationship.
What a waste for both of you. You will never respect her. She needs to get out.