Good news Obamacare gets even better!

[Lainey]

I was not the one who brought up the word Liberty into the conversation about ACA.

And no I do not defend the NSA's actions.

But are you really saying that the same people who claim Liberty as their excuse for being against the ACA were protesting just as vigorously and publicly when the Patriot Act passed? or when it was renewed? or when the NSA spy scandal broke?
Not to mention when Romneycare passed in Massachusetts. So, where's the proof?

Again, my point is that if Liberty was the true concern, these earlier events would have provoked the public outrage that they are now showing about the ACA. So that cannot be the real reason.

[Alan]

I was not the one who brought up the word Liberty into the conversation about ACA.

That's correct. I brought it up as a one word response to the question "Which side do you think the right falls on?". Since then, I've simply responded to those who either tell me that I'm wrong in my opinion or imply that I am a hypocrite based upon their interpretation of my beliefs.

But are you really saying that the same people who claim Liberty as their excuse for being against the ACA were protesting just as vigorously and publicly when the Patriot Act passed? or when it was renewed? or when the NSA spy scandal broke?

No, I can't speak for what other people think. I can repeat what I've previously posted that I'm not aware of anyone with views similar to mine who don't think either of those examples were an assault on their liberty. The only exception possibly being elements of the Patriot Act since it was such a far reaching piece of legislation. When it is broken down into it's individual parts, some enjoy bipartisan support, and others, not so much.

Again, my point is that if Liberty was the true concern, these earlier events would have provoked the public outrage that they are now showing about the ACA. So that cannot be the real reason.

I'm afraid I don't find that conclusion convincing. How do you measure public outrage? Is it only public outrage if you disagree, while any agreement with your concerns is simply ignored?

[ApatheticNoMore]

But are you really saying that the same people who claim Liberty as their excuse for being against the ACA were protesting just as vigorously and publicly when the Patriot Act passed? or when it was renewed? or when the NSA spy scandal broke?
Not to mention when Romneycare passed in Massachusetts. So, where's the proof?

I'm not sure how one would know. How likely people one sees on social media are to be protesting something? (all the tea party members one presumably has on their social media? ) Whether it trends on twitter? (twitter trending seems straight out manipulated btw) Or something like media coverage? But does most of the media tend to cover protests or black them out? How many protests go uncovered everyday? What determines if the media covers a protest? Size of the protest? Or something else?

They only group I was aware of trying to protest the NSA was the "restore the 4th" movement, and I don't think it went anywhere (but again, since I wasn't there, would I know if it did? If several hundred people were out protesting it would the "revolution be televised"?)

If you are just talking Republican politicians and the like of course they aren't against the NSA. Actually the Dems in the house vote significantly better on civil libs overall (Senate and Prez are throughly corrupt - nothing more needs to be said about them).

Again, my point is that if Liberty was the true concern, these earlier events would have provoked the public outrage that they are now showing about the ACA. So that cannot be the real reason.

Yes I suspect you're right and liberty is often not the prime concern. I'm merely pointing out public outrage is being reflected to us through fun house mirrors at this point, and then we look through them trying to get an accurate picture of the (social-political) world and our place in it! I don't think we live in a culture with massive amounts of political protest or activity (or everyone you know would be going to a protest this weekend ), but exactly what *is* going on I suspect is utterly distorted. I do suspect that it's easier to build a protest on things people *perceive* as affecting them immediately and economically (rather than on civil libs, the environment etc. - even though that stuff is extremely important in the big picture), but I'm not entirely sure about that one either.

[peggy]

Peggy, Peggy, Peggy....sigh..I think we've gotten off into the weeds from the original path which dealt with liberty. In an effort to get it back on-track, let me again point out that I have the choice of whether or not I drive a car or use it on public roads. If I choose not to, there is no punitive tax associated with my choice. Under the ACA I do not have a choice to forego the purchase of a specific commercial product, nor do I have the choice to tailor that commercial product to suit my needs without bearing the brunt of a punitive tax, levied by the federal government. Under that scheme, I no longer have the freedom of choice, association or conscience for my own healthcare needs, nor would I have under any form of universal healthcare as the government has decided what I want, what I need, what I must have, and what I must pay for it. That is the opposite of liberty.

Oh baloney! I think you have that flag wrapped a little too tight around your head!
Tell you what, the day we become Somalia, you can have complete freedom to not buy health insurance, and the hospitals will have complete freedom to let you die in the parking lot! And they will, cause, that's the way it is in an Ayn Rand utopia such as that!

Whatever...it is the law of the land, like it or not, and it won't be repealed, cause the majority of American citizens fall on the side of compassion and decency. This country isn't, nor was it built on, every man for himself, despite the tea party taliban trying to convince people otherwise. Why the so called party of responsibility would be against what is essentially a set of regulations on the insurance industry is beyond me. I guess it's that whole black guy in the white house thing, cause, you know, they were for it before they were against it.
I'm glad our country did this. It's not perfect, god knows we really need universal health care, but it's a step in the right direction. And it IS helping people Lots of people, and not just poor, indigent people. I know that really pisses off the right but, there it is.

[iris lilies]

... And it IS helping people Lots of people, and not just poor, indigent people...

oh peggy, I am so with you there. One of these days I'll be joining the ranks of people who are helped by Obamacare and I'm not indigent. I'll be jumping on Alan's back for the ride. Thing is, I'm not sure what happens when Alan throws in the towel and stops working and paying taxes. But tra-la, tr-la, guess I don't really need to think about that, Nanny G will take care o' me!

[Alan]

Thanks Peg, I should have known I couldn't get anything past you. Your ability to see through the murk and find the true rationale of racism, greed & mean-spiritedness, which is the true cause of all differences of opinion, is truly phenomenal. I stand in humble awe of your insight.

[JaneV2.0]

Alan's federal tax burden is historically the lowest it's been in decades, so don't worry about him going broke, Iris Lily. And if we could just stop getting involved in endless, pointless foreign wars, just think how much we'd have to spend or save!

[CeciliaW]

... if we could just stop getting involved in endless, pointless foreign wars, just think how much we'd have to spend or save!

This... definitely this. What we could do with that money to fix our own space. Imagine!

[Lainey]

This... definitely this. What we could do with that money to fix our own space. Imagine!

+1

[gimmethesimplelife]

Alan's federal tax burden is historically the lowest it's been in decades, so don't worry about him going broke, Iris Lily. And if we could just stop getting involved in endless, pointless foreign wars, just think how much we'd have to spend or save!

Agreed 100% about the pointless foreign wars! Rob