Baltimorei

[iris lilies]

I used to support the death penalty and now I don't. There are a couple reasons...

1. The process is too politicized and too inconsistent. Death penalty cases are brought mostly in jurisdictions that can afford multi-million dollar trials and have a supply of prosecutors and defenders (public and otherwise) seeking notoriety from high profile cases. Commit the same crime in an area with less resources and less media coverage and you would likely face a plea bargain rather than death.

2. There is too much potential for discrepancy between beyond a reasonable doubt and beyond any doubt. If the punishment is to be absolute the conviction better be as well, but in most cases that isn't possible. DNA evidence is a wonderful tool for helping bridge that gap, but its not foolproof. Or tamper proof.

3. As much as I feel there are people who's crimes are so heinous that they deserve to die, I don't believe that an eye for an eye really evens the score. IMO, that response does more to bring those rendering judgment down to the criminal level than it does to keep them on that precious high moral ground.

4. As convenient as it is to view criminals as a cancer, they're not. Cancer cells aren't sentient beings. Enough said.

i support the death penalty like the Israelis. Reserve it for the most heinous criminals, like Eichmann. Everyone else--not so much for all the reasons you list.

so I want to keep it on the books but I don,t care if it is actually used, or seldom used.

[JaneV2.0]

You're absolutely right that the death penalty (like most sentences) is not applied equitably. Witness the Green River Killer, who killed an acknowledged 49 women, and the BTK Killer,who was charged with ten murders. Both are white, both are serving life sentences--while minority offenders who shoot liquor store clerks routinely get the death penalty. And Robert Durst, admitted killer and millionaire, got off completely.

[Alan]

I know a lot of you don't believe in the death penalty. I guess you think it's too "civilized" or "inhumane".

I'm one of them, although "civilized" or "inhumane" doesn't enter into my thought process. I have no problem with a life being taken in defense of oneself or another but once the active threat is no longer present, that's another story. I don't like the idea that a government may execute its citizens.

We have arguably the most punitive, least rehabilitative prison system of all the developed countries, and we have the highest incarceration rate.

I have no problem with that either. I hold individuals responsible for their actions and most every criminal is aware of the consequences of their misdeeds. I think prison should be punitive, leave rehabilitation to individuals interested enough to pursue it on their own.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I could care less about punishing criminals (and the brutal conditions in prison are that. I mean does anyone arguing they aren't brutal enough, have even a passing familiarity with the issue?).

I see locking people up when necessary strictly as something that sometimes needs to be done to protect the rest of society from them. Conditions in prison being as brutal as they are isn't necessary.

Although I'm opposed to it anyway, reserving the death penalty for only the worst criminals isn't something that's ever been tried in the U.S.. You have states without the death penalty - good for them, states who use it frequently that end up with a bunch of misuses and innocents killed, and states that use it infrequently where it ends up being a giant never ending money suck because they are so reluctant to use it and there are so many appeals, that it is in no way preferable to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

[jp1]

jesus Christ, I have to really wonder about ya'll who apparently don't let live in high crime neighborhoods.

jp, I appreciate perps being locked up for however many moments in order to give my community a freaking rest from their shenanigans.

Go forth and and expound on the nature of criminal rehabilitation and restorative justice and etc. It is the internet, after all. But some of us are real people with communities where we look out for one another against the bad guys. Make no mistake, the bad guys are real. Talk amongst yourselves to solve societal problems, it doesn't hurt anything.

of COURSE prison does not rehabilitate anyone! Throwing whatever amount of money at that problem won't work, just like throwing money at poor families and poor communities doesn't fix the problem.

It really must be sad to have such a pessimistic outlook on the world. And to live in such a dangerous neighborhood. Maybe you need to move.

Feel free to look up the Harlem Children's Zone's concepts and what successes they've had. Or don't and continue to bitch and moan about how black people are just horrible down to the core of their being and will never change. To alter another tired phrase, we all can choose to be as hopeless as we want to be.

When I wrote that post yesterday I actually, believe it or not, tended to agree with you that once someone was in the criminal justice system getting them out of it for any length of time was highly unlikely. Then on the plane last night I listened to a recent This American Life episode where they did a story about a program in Richmond CA to try and reduce recidivism. The city looked at the stats and found that, unlike your perception that there are lots and lots of really bad guys out there (and probably theirs as well) only 17 people, in a city of just over 100,000, were responsible for almost all of the shooting crimes in the city. They created a program to target just those guys, the worst of the worst, and now years and several groups of guys later, 80% of the people who went through the program haven't been arrested again. I'd encourage you to go find and listen to the podcast, but again, I realize you may not want to burst your pessimistic bubble.

The thing about these programs, the Harlem Children's Zone, and the Richmond program, is that they take time to see results, and lots of money and effort before results are seen. In this era of CEO's only worrying about the next quarter's results, and politicians only worrying about the next election, it's difficult to get the support to try things like this. The alternative, though, isn't cheap either. How many 10's of thousands of dollars does it cost to have someone go in and out of prison for their whole life? And if we can do something to alter the course of that life and make it better, I personally think we have a moral obligation to do so because it's the right thing to do. Not only will it make their lives better, but it will make everyone else's better as well.

[creaker]

I would think for the number of for profit prisons out there, that the businesses profiting would want to do what they can to insure repeat business. I don't think it would be in their best interests to rehabilitate or dissuade prisoners from coming back, and it would be to do just the opposite.

[Gregg]

i support the death penalty like the Israelis. Reserve it for the most heinous criminals, like Eichmann. Everyone else--not so much for all the reasons you list.

so I want to keep it on the books but I don,t care if it is actually used, or seldom used.

That's pretty much the path I took to get where I am now, only I started to wonder what difference it made if the Eichmanns of the world were dead by our hands or rotting eternally in a cement hole? For me the only difference was the 'by our hands' part. I didn't really like that so much so decided it wasn't worth the ethical hand wringing. And the only problem I have with keeping it on the books is that when such things are set aside for the most extreme cases we always seem to come up with more extremes than we thought we would so we eventually end up right where we were before. Ask anyone in Texas.

The ACLU would have a heyday with it, but we could always turn those extreme criminals into a version of "The Truman Show". You know, put their whole incarcerated lives on camera for their victims to watch. Or better yet, put the victims free lives on a feed into the cells whenever the victims want to switch it on. Just indulging in a little sick fantasy version of justice...

[Gregg]

I would think for the number of for profit prisons out there, that the businesses profiting would want to do what they can to insure repeat business. I don't think it would be in their best interests to rehabilitate or dissuade prisoners from coming back, and it would be to do just the opposite.

That business model, IMO, is a HUGE problem that should probably just be eliminated.

[bae]

I'm one of them, although "civilized" or "inhumane" doesn't enter into my thought process. I have no problem with a life being taken in defense of oneself or another but once the active threat is no longer present, that's another story. I don't like the idea that a government may execute its citizens.

This is my position as well. I am against the death penalty because I do not want to grant the government the power to coldly and methodically kill humans in my name.

I carry a gun and a knife every day. I teach people to kill. I have killed. I'm fine with using lethal force in immediate defense of self or others. But I don't think it is moral to initiate the use of force. A prisoner in a cell is no immediate threat, not at a level that would morally justify using lethal force.

Just one right-winger's opinion.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I have some good news. The eix officers involved in the Baltimore issue are now facing murder charges. It remains to be seen what will materialize as a result of these charges, but at least they have been charged. I'm just so so so glad that social media, the media in general, and these protests are gaining traction in the sense that some officers are finding out they are not above the law. It's very sad to me that situations like Baltimore have to happen to make police officers accountable to the law - how does one forgive America for this? I really don't know - but at least these protests are working.

I'd be willing to bet that until such a date as the police no longer cross the line, more cities will burn and more rioting and looting will happen. More images of what America is really about will be sent around the world via social media, further shaping worldwide negative opinions of the United States. I know that when I travel overseas later this year I will pose as a Canadian and sprinkle my conversation with a few ehs, just like I did back in 1987 (but the reasons for doing such now seem much more pressing). I certainly don't want to be judged for the wrongs of America as a tourist - especially since my basic take is going to match the negative take of America overseas. Rob