atheists going too far?

[Alan]

Also slightly off-topic, but do you think that the landless peasant* should have an equal say in government, via voting, as the landowners?

* The early 21st century version of the 'landless peasant' is the paycheck-to-paycheck worker who owns no assets and has little chance of ever accumulating assets.

That's an interesting question and one that's not easily answered in a straightforward manner. In a true Democracy, every individual is entitled to a political voice. However, a true Democracy is always destined to destroy itself by allowing the takers to vote themselves benefits paid by the producers.

I always prefer to take the high road so I'm completely in favor of everyone having their political voice be heard, and recognize my responsibility to point out the dangers of taking that stand.

[Mangano's Gold]

That's an interesting question and one that's not easily answered in a straightforward manner. In a true Democracy, every individual is entitled to a political voice. However, a true Democracy is always destined to destroy itself by allowing the takers to vote themselves benefits paid by the producers.

I always prefer to take the high road so I'm completely in favor of everyone having their political voice be heard, and recognize my responsibility to point out the dangers of taking that stand.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that demcocracies are imperfect! Everybody knows it, but it isn't polite to say it. Subtlety often fails, though. For example, I suspect many liberals have at least a mild level of contempt for southern white voters. They view them as under-educated dolts who are getting played for fools, and that the country would be better off is they stayed in their trailer parks and didn't vote. And Republcians? Well, it isn't exactly a secret that the reason they hate Acorn has nothing to do with corruption and everything to do with not wanting more poor blacks voting. Ditto Motor Voter,same day registration, etc...

IMO, different forms of government probably serve the people better at different times. Good luck getting the timing right, though.

[iris lily]

... And Republcians? Well, it isn't exactly a secret that the reason they hate Acorn has nothing to do with corruption and everything to do with not wanting more poor blacks voting...

Twice.

We don't want poor blacks voting twice. Or thrice.

Iris Lily, at home in an Acorn city where voter fraud is rampant and Acorn is guilty as charged.

[loosechickens]

well, I don't know about "landless peasants" as opposed to "landowners", but sometimes I do think that citizens before they are allowed to vote, should know some basic facts about their own country. We make naturalized citizens pass tests on our history, laws and form of government in order to become citizens, maybe our home grown ones should have to meet the same standard.

Just saw this today: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ans/?hpt=hp_t2

"Poll: 1776 date puzzles some Americans
By: CNN Political Unit


(CNN) - A slight majority of Americans know what year the United States declared independence, according to a new national survey.

The Marist Poll released in honor of America's Independence Day, July 4, showed 58 percent of residents aware their country declared independence in 1776. Twenty-six percent were unsure and 16 percent named another date. Younger Americans, those under 30 years of age, were less likely to have the correct answer with 31 percent, compared to Americans between the ages of 45 and 59 who said 1776 75 percent of the time.

One in four Americans also didn't know from which country the United States seceded, with 76 percent correctly naming Great Britain, 19 percent unsure and 5 percent naming another country.

The survey of 1,003 adults was conducted between June 15 and June 23 via telephone and had a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points."

---------------------------------

Iris Lily, can you provide some factual cites for your charge that in St. Louis, voter fraud is rampant, ACORN did it, and that it's "poor blacks" doing the fraudulent voting, please? I know that in the ACORN scandal, there WERE people paid to go out and register voters, and some filled out the forms fraudulently, some as "Mickey Mouse", etc., but I never saw any information that any of those fake registrations actually resulted in "Mickey Mouse" showing up to vote, let alone voting "twice....or thrice"......

If you make that accusation, it's really up to you to back it up, if you want it to be considered. If you're just making noise, then don't bother.

Happy Fourth of July, everybody!!!!!!

It was heartwarming to watch our newest naturalized citizens take their oaths of citizenship in various locations today......definitely a Happy Fourth of July for them......

[Alan]

well, I don't know about "landless peasants" as opposed to "landowners", but sometimes I do think that citizens before they are allowed to vote, should know some basic facts about their own country. We make naturalized citizens pass tests on our history, laws and form of government in order to become citizens, maybe our home grown ones should have to meet the same standard.

Just saw this today: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ans/?hpt=hp_t2

"Poll: 1776 date puzzles some Americans
By: CNN Political Unit


(CNN) - A slight majority of Americans know what year the United States declared independence, according to a new national survey.

The Marist Poll released in honor of America's Independence Day, July 4, showed 58 percent of residents aware their country declared independence in 1776. Twenty-six percent were unsure and 16 percent named another date. Younger Americans, those under 30 years of age, were less likely to have the correct answer with 31 percent, compared to Americans between the ages of 45 and 59 who said 1776 75 percent of the time.

One in four Americans also didn't know from which country the United States seceded, with 76 percent correctly naming Great Britain, 19 percent unsure and 5 percent naming another country.

The survey of 1,003 adults was conducted between June 15 and June 23 via telephone and had a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points."
...........

The state of public education took a big dive over the last 30 years or so. Maybe we need the federal government to get involved, we could create a new bureaucracy and call it the Department of Education.

Oh, wait. Never mind!

[Zigzagman]

The right-wing hyena mob is working itself up again, this time over some long-overdue common sense that, predictably, offends their smug, religious sense of entitlement.

There’s a deep strain of angry Christians in this country that simply cannot abide the notion that their religion isn’t universal and mandatory, or that religious tolerance requires not imposing public displays of, let alone mandated allegiance to, their religious beliefs in areas that properly fall within the individual’s sphere of private conscience. And the merest request that they should actually keep their religious ceremonies to themselves, still less at someone else’s funeral, is an attack on their rights, or religion in general.


This is the policy that caused the fuss. Note that it explicitly declares that families can have the flag thing read at funerals by government staff – if they request it. It also notes that it was a “gross error” in the text (referring to Isaac, Abraham, and Jacob as “gods”) that caused the complaint – obviously by a religious family. And it does not even cite religious neutrality as the reason for the directive (it cites the lack of any official definition of “the meaning of the folds of the flag”). This is what has caused the entire outrage among the shriekingly ignorant and apparently illiterate right-wing.

Department of Veterans Affairs
Date: September 27, 2007
From: Director, Office of Field Programs
Thru: Each MSN Director
To: Each Cemetery Director
Subj: The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag


It has come to my attention that cemeteries may be distributing a handout entitled, “The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag” and/or posting the handout in cemetery buildings. I have also learned that our volunteer honor guards may be using the handout as a script and reciting the meaning of the thirteen folds of the flag while the interment flag is folded during the committal service.
There are various versions of the script circulating by anonymous authors. Some of those scripts are religious in nature and also ascribe meaning to the individual folds put into the flag. We have recently received a complaint sent to the President of the United States that there was a gross error in the handout with reference to the 11th fold “…glorifying the Gods Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”.
There are no federal laws related to the flag that assign any special meaning to the individual folds of the flag. The National Cemetery Administration must not give meaning, or appear to give meaning to the folds of the flag by endorsing or distributing any handouts on “The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag.”
Effective immediately all national cemeteries are to refrain from distributing any handouts on “The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag”; remove any postings from all cemetery buildings and discontinue our VA-Sponsored Volunteer Honor Guards from using the handout as a script at a committal service during the folding of the flag.
The only time the reading of “The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag” is authorized in our national cemeteries is when the next-of-kin arranges for military honors with their local VSO and requests the reading during the committal service.


Peace

[Alan]

The right-wing hyena mob is working itself up again, this time over some long-overdue common sense that, predictably, offends their smug, religious sense of entitlement.........

The commentary seems to go well beyond the facts of this 4 year old incident. If we want to simply bash "right wing hyena's", couldn't we find something a little more recent?

[Zigzagman]

The commentary seems to go well beyond the facts of this 4 year old incident. If we want to simply bash "right wing hyena's", couldn't we find something a little more recent?

LOL - In my zeal to show an example of "going too far" I got the before mentioned story mixed up with the one I intended. This happened just yesterday in Houston (4th of July). Notice that the "Liberty Institute" is filing suit. They are an afiliate of "Focus on the Family" which is the leader of the pack of hyenas. They seem to think that public praying is a every important issue for our country? There are so many examples of this type of thing daily around the country.

Peace


Hundreds of flag-waving demonstrators converged on Houston National Cemetery on Independence Day to protest reports of religious censorship at burial services there.

"We felt it was one of the best ways we could have spent this time of the Fourth of July," said Marine veteran Steve Cranston, a 58-year-old pastor from Houston who attended the protest with his wife, Judy, 66. "We feel like it's our duty."

"And I believe the ones who are already buried here would be right with us," his wife said.
The Houston Area Pastor Council planned Monday's protest in support of a federal lawsuit filed by the nonprofit Liberty Institute on behalf of American Legion Post 586, Veterans of Foreign Wars District 4, and National Memorial Ladies, a volunteer group that attends burials at the cemetery.
The suit accuses U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs officials and Houston National Cemetery director Arleen Ocasio of banning members of these groups from invoking the names of "God" or "Jesus" at burials, and forbidding the recitation of religious messages unless the deceased's family submits the text to her for approval.

[benhyr]

"Poll: 1776 date puzzles some Americans
By: CNN Political Unit


(CNN) - A slight majority of Americans know what year the United States declared independence, according to a new national survey.

The Marist Poll released in honor of America's Independence Day, July 4, showed 58 percent of residents aware their country declared independence in 1776. Twenty-six percent were unsure and 16 percent named another date. Younger Americans, those under 30 years of age, were less likely to have the correct answer with 31 percent, compared to Americans between the ages of 45 and 59 who said 1776 75 percent of the time.

Resolution of independence passed on July 2nd, 1776, Declaration of Independence ratified on July 4th, signed by all delegates by August 2nd. Now, how does knowing these dates help me compete in a global economy?

for that matter, in this time of multi-national corporate control of so much of our economy and agriculture, is nationalism a good, neutral, or bad thing? Maybe we're better off teaching more important dates.... like when Kraft unveiled mac & cheese

The state of public education took a big dive over the last 30 years or so.

Data shows this to be incorrect: http://nationsreportcard.gov/ltt_2008/ltt0002.asp

Now, I will buy that you don't think things don't seem as great as when you were a kid, but there are several biases at play there.

[Alan]

LOL - In my zeal to show an example of "going too far" I got the before mentioned story mixed up with the one I intended..........

I'm confused. Is it "going too far" to ban these groups from invoking the names of God or Jesus, or is it "going too far" to file a lawsuit over it?