Thoughts on Ryan as VP?

[bae]

AMEN bae.

And to clarify, by "the current system" I was referring to today's semi-pre-Obamacare system, since Obamacare hasn't really kicked in yet. I don't expect Obamacare to substantially improve things.

[LDAHL]

I have a very good friend who decided to move to the USA permanently. He had to write a substantial check to the government of his own country to buy-out the education and other services his wife and he had received. Seems they wanted to see ROI.

I think many countries take a more practical view than we do of the immigration/emigration transaction.

We also extend citizenship to foreign nationals who serve in our military. I suppose you could consider that to be a sort of sweat equity.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Why would someone feel "proud and patriotic" about our insurance system? Given the amount of government involvement in regulating healthcare and insurance, it is hardly a free market, or even a transparent one. The current system is about as un-American as you can get.

I think I was making the same point although rather sarcastically.

Rob wants to leave the country > The main reason he wants to leave is because he can't afford health care in the existing system> a system of socialized medicine, if we had one would probably work better, but we don't have one > Rob gets attacked for wanting to take advantage of other countries socialized medical system, but in fact he doesn't even want to do anything of the sort (or maybe he'd like to but he isn't able to at any rate as it is very difficult to get into those countries). He really just wants to move to a country where medical care is actually affordable out of pocket. Oh that's so horrible (sarcasm).

[bae]

He really just wants to move to a country where medical care is actually affordable out of pocket.

It might prove interesting to look at why medical care is affordable in those places.

[Gregg]

He really just wants to move to a country where medical care is actually affordable out of pocket. Oh that's so horrible (sarcasm).

I don't think anyone had any problem with that part. The discussion is more centered around Rob's idea that someone would basically be paid to leave. The idea is that by leaving you will not cost the US taxpayers any money at a later date and so could receive a buyout of sorts based on those anticipated savings. That's what led into the talk around monetizing citizenship, which may not be as outlandish as it might sound.

[creaker]

It might prove interesting to look at why medical care is affordable in those places.

Affordable to us - I think in those places medical care is not so affordable to most of the people living there.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It might prove interesting to look at why medical care is affordable in those places.

Once again, I couldn't agree with you more, Bae. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Affordable to us - I think in those places medical care is not so affordable to most of the people living there.

Yes and no. The countries I am looking at do have a system of socialized medicine in place HOWEVER just getting there with a business visa does not get you on it and it takes time to get on it, and in the case of Chile and Uruguay, citizenship (theirs) to get on it. Hence the math assuming cash payments for health care services or perhaps private insurance. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

[QUOTE=gimmethesimplelife;96169]Yes and no. The countries I am looking at do have a system of socialized medicine in place HOWEVER just getting there with a business visa does not get you on it and it takes time to get on it, and in the case of Chile and Uruguay, citizenship (theirs) to get on it. Hence the math assuming cash payments for health care services or perhaps private insurance. But that doesn't answer your question. For the locals, they will be able to access at least basic health care fairly cheaply due to socialized medicine - were they to pay in their currency on what they make, it would be quite nightmarishly expensive for most, just like healthcare here often is without insurance. The difference is that due to socialized medicine, the locals have access to basic healthcare many in the US lack, and for me even without this access, having US dollars to convert makes the costs much saner. Rob

[jp1]

I don't think anyone had any problem with that part. The discussion is more centered around Rob's idea that someone would basically be paid to leave. The idea is that by leaving you will not cost the US taxpayers any money at a later date and so could receive a buyout of sorts based on those anticipated savings. That's what led into the talk around monetizing citizenship, which may not be as outlandish as it might sound.

I agree that Rob's idea is an interesting one and don't personally have a problem with it per se.* I agree that at first glance recent college grads would have the deepest 'negative' citizenship balance sheet since they'd had the benefit of education, etc up to that point with little meaningful contribution back to society. On the other hand, though, I don't think you can do a straight line amortization of the rest of the person's life. Beyond the fairly constant benefits we all receive throughout our lives of things like public roads, police forces, fire departments, libraries, etc, the main benefits an average person who is successfully working/self-supporting for their adult life, are the old age benefits of social security and medicare. Social security is again a stable payout for the person's entire retired lifespan. Medicare, however, is not. Everything I've ever read is that the average person consumes an enormous portion of their lifetime healthcare services during the last 2 years of their life. It doesn't matter if they die at 20, 50 or 92. With that in mind I think that a major component of calculating one's citizen balance sheet would have to include accounting for the US not having to be responsible for that person's last 2 years of health care. If they leave at 20 it'll be a small component of their overall citizen balance sheet. If they leave at some point after retirement age (and are currently healthy, not in the middle of consuming their final 2 year's healthcare services) it'll be almost the entire amount of their balance sheet and would presumably be a quite large positive factor.

*At this point in my life I'm not likely to immigrate elsewhere to build a new career/life. If anything becoming an ex-pat would be a decision at retirement to move somewhere with a lower cost of living where my lifetime of savings could hopefully support me in my remaining years. However, if I were a recent college grad and had an exciting opportunity or at least saw a potential opportunity to move to another country and start my adult life then absolutely I'd consider it. I don't see that as any different from the countless people who have moved to America over the centuries because they thought they'd have more opportunity here. My maternal ancesters didn't move to Kansas from Germany in the 1800s because they hated being German. They moved because they believed they could have a better life here. I imagine that the opportunities for an eager entrepreneurial person in a developing country in Asia or Latin America today are amazing. A go getter who wants to take a chance, move there and try to establish him or herself and build some sort of business could probably create a very rewarding life and at the same time be a benefit to their new country as they help grow that country's economy.