VW Superbowl Ad

[Gregg]

Like Spartana and creaker thoughts of race or black or Ziegfield Follies blackface actors or slavery or little lawn jockies never entered my mind while watching the commercial. IMO there is no reason they should have.

Redfox, I'm not quite sure if you're saying guilt related to slavery is still being felt in the white community or not. The notion of white guilt stemming from slavery is ludicrous to me, probably because I don't feel even the slightest twinge of guilt about it. Why should I? I didn't enslave anyone. Neither did my father, grandfather, great-grandfather... Even if I did believe in the sins of the father stuff (I don't) once you get back four or five generations or more its time to let it go. The Romans enslaved some of my wife's ancestors, but she somehow manages to be comfortable around Italians.

The only thing crazier than that would be feeling guilty because I AM white. The idea that white people have some kind of inherent responsibility to do something because of the color of their skin blends seamlessly with the back of the bus mentality we so vehemently protest against. A mirror image, reverse-racism. I don't owe anything to anyone who is black, brown or otherwise just because I am pigmentally challenged. If someone needs help I will try to give it to them, but any obligation I might feel will never be based on the color of their skin.

The data is clear that multigenerational effects of the trauma of slavery is still being felt in the African American community.

Its easy enough to understand how it would take a race that were once slaves a long time to integrate into a society to the point of being 'equal' to the former masters. If you make an analogy to a foot race one group had a big head start so the other will have to run very fast for a long time to catch up. If the goal is for everyone to finish at the same point then it makes sense to offer shortcuts to the group who started out behind. Our society has lots of shortcuts available. Beyond any question I believe we should work to help anyone in our society who is disadvantaged, but I think it is a crock of s**t to tie any kind of assistance to race. To do that makes us racist in the purest form. In that sense our do-gooder government has done more to promote, extend and encourage racism than the sum total of all the confederate flag flying rednecks I can name.

[Spartana]

Me neither - I thought it was parodying a Jamaican. It's such a small subset of "black" that it did not even occur to me.

It would be like saying a parody of someone Swedish is a parody of whites. It's not.

And I was thinking someone Jamaican might be offended - or someone who just disapproves of caricatures in general.

Yes. If the guy had spoken with a British accent yet said the exact same thing would we consider it racist? If he was a black guy looking like a Rastafarianj and spoke with a refined British accent would we say it was racist against the white British? I don't think so.

[redfox]

Redfox, I'm not quite sure if you're saying guilt related to slavery is still being felt in the white community or not. The notion of white guilt stemming from slavery is ludicrous to me, probably because I don't feel even the slightest twinge of guilt about it. Why should I? I didn't enslave anyone. Neither did my father, grandfather, great-grandfather... Even if I did believe in the sins of the father stuff (I don't) once you get back four or five generations or more its time to let it go. The Romans enslaved some of my wife's ancestors, but she somehow manages to be comfortable around Italians.

The only thing crazier than that would be feeling guilty because I AM white. The idea that white people have some kind of inherent responsibility to do something because of the color of their skin blends seamlessly with the back of the bus mentality we so vehemently protest against. A mirror image, reverse-racism. I don't owe anything to anyone who is black, brown or otherwise just because I am pigmentally challenged. If someone needs help I will try to give it to them, but any obligation I might feel will never be based on the color of their skin.

Its easy enough to understand how it would take a race that were once slaves a long time to integrate into a society to the point of being 'equal' to the former masters. If you make an analogy to a foot race one group had a big head start so the other will have to run very fast for a long time to catch up. If the goal is for everyone to finish at the same point then it makes sense to offer shortcuts to the group who started out behind. Our society has lots of shortcuts available. Beyond any question I believe we should work to help anyone in our society who is disadvantaged, but I think it is a crock of s**t to tie any kind of assistance to race. To do that makes us racist in the purest form. In that sense our do-gooder government has done more to promote, extend and encourage racism than the sum total of all the confederate flag flying rednecks I can name.

No, Gregg, I am not saying that white people feel guilty because of slavery. I am saying that whites often are stopped from understanding racism and our unwitting role in this pernicious system because of feelings of sadness & grief due to the obvious & daily impacts of racism. Is this so hard to understand? I certainly don't know anyone who is unaware of the way racism plays out in everyday life. It's all over the news, and I see it on my street all the time. Maybe there are some insulated whites who live away from people of color and really have no idea how racism affects all of our lives... Maybe the ignorance of how racism affects everyone's lives is still what dominates.

Read Tim Wise's work, if you care to learn more about how us white folks can help create an anti-racist world.

Here is a convo that took place on FB yesterday... it might give you some insights... in the frame of seeing race & racial experience, I include the race of the individuals posting. A small sampling of the lamentations I hear & read about every day.

From a middle aged Asian-American man...
"I loved living in Portland, OR, but living in more racially and culturally diverse New York is a gift to me in my middle age. I'm so much more relaxed, culturally more fulfilled, and generally less stressed out, irritable, and anxious.

I've always felt lucky in life and certainly felt lucky to live and work in Portland among so many great people. I just never really appreciated how much I was being affected by the little bit of dread I lived with in Portland, always managing anxiety, just under the surface, sublimated to subconsciousness. When white people constitute such an overwhelming majority, their dominance is maintained subtly, smugly, even upon themselves, and mostly beyond their notice.

The struggle over recognition of our diverse realities (what I think is at the foundation of many of our struggles across identities) is as real here as anywhere, but it's noticed, recognized, seen and heard. I feel less isolated, more sane.

I may one day return...in places like Portland, your friends are really, truly your friends, sharing an experience that is beyond words, mostly acknowledged in sidelong glances and knowing looks and in the particular way we shake off the struggle when we play. But, for now, I feel like I've come up for air after being underwater.

Taking a breath occasionally is highly recommended. It's good for the soul and improves one's vision."

A reply from an African American man:
"I wonder if you notice any difference between Seattle and Portland? I've spent more time down there and noticed a similar phenomenon, slightly more nuanced but no less pernicious. W.E.B. DuBois wrote that the cost of racial consciousness is a sense of unease that one will carry with them the rest of their days, as they realize in subtle and not so subtle discontinuities of this society that we live in. So, yes, finding respite with one's family and friends, or in the company of a good book, or in deep meditation can help to lighten the load.....Thanks for sharing your wisdom - I have lots to learn."

And from an African American woman:
"I wish I could share this on my wall...this is so well stated and I TOTALLY RELATE and would never move back there for that very reason. Virginia is not the most diverse place, but there are definitely different attitudes here and I can get to other cities fairly easily. I am happy for you, S."

Finally, I would ask that you consider asking some of the millions people of color & the poor, who have received benefits, to see what they think is preferable; assistance or rednecks flying the Confederate flag. I can imagine that having shelter, enough food, and an education is preferable, at least in my immediate neighborhood.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Redfox, I'm not quite sure if you're saying guilt related to slavery is still being felt in the white community or not. The notion of white guilt stemming from slavery is ludicrous to me, probably because I don't feel even the slightest twinge of guilt about it. Why should I? I didn't enslave anyone. Neither did my father, grandfather, great-grandfather... Even if I did believe in the sins of the father stuff (I don't) once you get back four or five generations or more its time to let it go. The only thing crazier than that would be feeling guilty because I AM white

Agree about guilt. And I can perfectly well understand priviledge where I think it exists, but white priviledge only exists if your competing in a certain environment with certain signifiers. If you have all the middle class signifiers to pass as middle class, then being white might help you fit in all the more, just be another signifier. But tell me how "white priviledge" helps a poor white person in Appalachia, read this story and I dare you to tell me (I guess I am asumign most of the poeple are white, I don't really know). It's absolutely the systematic destruction and murder of a people on a par with most anything in American history (well I'm not going to take on slavery and Indian genocide here because that might be a bit much but it's comparable to much else that has been commited against minorities). Stuff we like to pretend in our delusions we are so far beyond now, because we're just so great and advanced and blah blah blah, lets pat ourselves on the back (really read it, it's a great very well written story):

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/...as-a-mountain/

No white priviledge there, and by the way the human race never really advances it just chooses new targets. But yes if you are competing in a very different environment in America for a middle class job say and have all the other middle class signifiers, race may help then, I'm pretty doubtful it's all about "white people" though as every environment I have worked in has been very multicultural, but there may exist prejudice against certain minorities and sure maybe you can't generalize to everywhere from southern california but .... still seems a bit more about class to me. And yes cops often are prejudiced against certain minorities maybe especially in certain neighborhoods. I don't have a problem with analyzing race in the criminal justice system which is plenty serious, just with going nutty about a dopey silly commercial that even many of the people portrayed don't have a problem with.

[ApatheticNoMore]

No, Gregg, I am not saying that white people feel guilty because of slavery. I am saying that whites often are stopped from understanding racism because of feelings of sadness & grief due to the obvious & daily impacts of racism.

sadness and grief about systems they probably have not much more control over than minorities. That most powerful people are whites, hardly means that most whites have much power. I don't control the criminal justice system for instance. Now if they elected me king for a day .... The only control most ordinary people would have over such systems would be activism and that's definitely not a life for everyone.

Is this so hard to understand? I certainly don;t know anyone who is unaware of the way racism plays out in everyday life. It's all over the news, and I see it on my street all the time. Maybe there are some insulated whites who live away from people of color and really have no idea how racism affects their lives...

A lot of people prefer to live in professional middle class areas. I won't say "all white" areas, because I am totally in the wrong state for that. Maybe if I moved somewhere as white bread as WI (there are some minorities there of course especially Milwaukee, just you go to parts of that state and the 100% whiteness is like culture shock, but not wrong or anything (being white is not a sin), just very different is all). And they prefer to middle class isolate because they just prefer not to deal with the problems of urban poverty.

[redfox]

All whites have a degree of privilege in our society. Layering in class is important as well. For instance: if otherwise equivalent in age & gender, a white person and a person of color are stopped by the police, people of color fare worse. Black mothers teach their sons to not run. Think about that: It never occurred to me to teach my son to not run, ever. How incredibly difficult is that? Running black males are targeted.

I have invisible privilege that I take refuge in daily. Example: I walk into the department store, and assume I will not be followed by security; in fact, it never occurred to me that this might be possible. My black & brown friends assume they will be followed, because that's been their experience, even dressed as upper middle class women, and they grew up knowing that they would be followed. There are COUNTLESS individual examples of this. Our former black city councilman in Seattle was routinely pulled over by the cops. DWB is significant for a reason. DWW is not. Do folks here really need convincing that racism is a problem, and that white privilege is an actual phenomenon?

[Spartana]

Like Spartana and creaker thoughts of race or black or Ziegfield Follies blackface actors or slavery or little lawn jockies never entered my mind while watching the commercial. IMO there is no reason they should have.

.

I agree Gregg. While it is sort of unsettling to hear someone of a certain race speak in a way that is unexpected (remember the Asian guy from the movie Fargo? Oh ja, ya betcha ja do!) - it WAS unsettling, But it was unsettling because we had a raciest, stereotypical view of what an Asian man was suppose to sound like - and it was not like some white guy from North Dakota! Just as we have the racist stereotypical view of what the white office guy in the commercial was suppose to sound like - and it was not like some guy from Jamacia (and there the added racism of assuming that anyone who speaks that type of Jamacian MUST be black). And the fact that so many people just assumed that a white guy in an office would speak like...well an American white guy in an office instead of having another accent - and it could have been any accent. Or that they just assumed that that accent he had was not only Jamacian, but a BLACK Jamacian just goes to show that even those crying racism hold just as many stereotypes about how a person is expected to act, speak, and look based on nothing more then their race, ethnicity or outer appearance. Just shows how prevalent racism is in our society in even the most non-racist people.

ETA: I live in a Vietnamese community and at first it was very unsettling to hear those second generation Vietnamese-Americans who moved here from places like Texas and Louisiana (where they were born and raised) speak with deep southern drawls. But I realized it was my own racism and pre-conceived ideas about how vietnamese were "suppose" to speak that lead to that unsettled feeling. Now I check myself (and hopefully my racism) and try not to judge any book merely by it's exterior cover.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Do folks here really need convincing that racism is a problem, and that white privilege is an actual phenomenon?

that it's a universal phenomena yea, because if a poor white person with no options signs up for the military and is killed in one of our wars (and there are plenty such in the military), that "priviledge" is not worth having, it's a priviledge so useless as to be utterly worthless, only if other ducks are lined up in a row does being white become a priviledge, so if you want to say if all other factors are constant being white might have priviledges above other races ok maybe (maybe because I'm not sure you can always even tell a person's ancestry that super easily by say looking at them in such a multicultural world - sometimes you can, sometimes you can't). Also I maintain that most whites as individuals have VERY LITTLE control over the actual systems of power in this country (we are the 99%?). I know someone who reminds me of the dude in that commercial only they aren't white, is it wrong and racist for me to be fond of them because I like that their spirit is that way?

[redfox]

Dr. King made the very explicit linkages between war, race, class, & poverty, in his Riverside Church speech. Now that we're celebrating Black History month -- and the end of white history 11 months -- listen to that speech! It's his best, in my view.

[catherine]

Dr. King made the very explicit linkages between war, race, class, & poverty, in his Riverside Church speech. Now that we're celebrating Black History month -- and the end of white history 11 months -- listen to that speech! It's his best, in my view.

If you don't mind...

A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Every nation must now develop an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in their individual societies.

This call for a world-wide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one's tribe, race, class and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all men. This oft misunderstood and misinterpreted concept -- so readily dismissed by the Nietzsches of the world as a weak and cowardly force -- has now become an absolute necessity for the survival of man. When I speak of love I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. I am speaking of that force which all of the great religions have seen as the supreme unifying principle of life. Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality. This Hindu-Moslem-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John:

Let us love one another; for love is God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. If we love one another God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

This is certainly a great speech.. My favorite is the Drum Major Instinct, but naming your favorite MLK speech is like trying to name your favorite child