Is the American Dream dead?

[gimmethesimplelife]

This one is a really hard one for me as I never really believed in the American dream to begin with. This stance is not going to make me friends or influence people but there is a part of me that is relieved to see the America I know trickling upwards - constant fear, what ifs that never go away, no real security, always having a few bags packed just in case.....This is not the America I am currently living (and I am grateful for that) but once you know the America I speak of you never really have all that much faith in the general idea of it. That being said, perhaps in a way there is some good here. With less consumption, the planet will have some breathing room to heal or at least not slide further down into environmental degradation so quickly. And honestly, I have read that with our standing of living going down, the standard of living in some Asian countries is going up to the point where life is more dignified.....I have a hard time begrudging other humans that. And if things keep sliding in the US, who knows, maybe one day the government will be overthrown, though I have a hard time of seeing that happening. There would need to be more hunger, more fear, more police brutality, and more stripping away of constitutional rights. I think with many people it might be something akin to in Gone With The Wind when the townspeople in Atlanta could first hear the sounds of battle, the cannon in the distance, some people woke up and smelled the coffee and realized that the war was lost. I don't think we are at that point yet, or something equivalent to that. But if things keep going the way they are......Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

I really think you should watch the show. The purpose of the show is not to say this is the way it is for everyone, or the way it will be. It simply documents two families who over the last twenty years have seen the loss of decent paying manufacturing jobs shipped overseas replaced by minimum wage, low benefit jobs that rise and fall with the economic tide. These are people who lived in modest homes and weren't trying to take European vacations, build fancy new mcmansions etc. I used to feel like some posters here as I was going along my middle class life but I have seen too much. And all these people who have had to take lower paying jobs or be out of work for years will enjoy a much smaller social security check than those who were able to keep good paying jobs. We all can't be engineers, nurses etc. And even many of them have watched their benefits and high wages slip away. the timespan of the show was through many administrations so it was not political, just the reality that many people face that worked hard to try to make a middle class life for their family.

[pinkytoe]

I watched this show last night and was struck by the work ethic of the two families shown - salt of the earth, as they were called. Nevertheless, I also saw some bad choices made along the paths of their lives that contributed to their stagnant economic situations. The oldest son of the larger family was the only one to get a college education and the only one to earn a live-able wage. It was eye-opening for me as it made me realize how very fortunate dh and I are to have the income we do without having completed college or other specialized education. Other than entrepreneurs, we are probably the last generation who can pull that off. We were in that poverty mindset and situation once as young marrieds and it is not a pleasant place to be. I believe the opportunity is always there to advance but other factors cancel that out in so many cases.

[redfox]

A measure, a single number, doesn't have much meaning without comparing it to something else.

The OP, PBS in this documentary, and I believe you, choose to compare the American experience to what once was. Assuming that you are correct (and I don't assume that) there is less opportunity here than once was in the days of yore.

I choose to compare the measure of the American experience to the experience elsewhere in many countries.

Here, it is what it is. To give the number meaning we can choose to use glass half full or glass half empty comparisons. Like most things in life, it's a choice.

I also think it's worthwhile to "care" about the American experience as measured in many ways, not just what once was.

I agree, IL. And, I am one of the many whose parents were born in the right time & place to have benefitted from the boom years. I have compared my life trajectory to theirs, and found it lacking. In the 80's, I lived in Guatemala. Wow... Eye opening, to say the least. My life is luxurious, and I live in palatial circumstances comparatively.

My parents have assisted all three of their kids with a college education, down payments on our mortgages, and periodic financial assistance over time as needed. We have been damn lucky. Now, they need that extra cash, both being nearly 86.

It was hard for me to not have a savings account for my stepkids' college expenses. I hate seeing them go into debt to get an education. I know one couple in my very wide circle of friends who paid for their child's private high school, private college education & has $$ stashed for her graduate degree, as well as having their own long term care policy. They are a couple with both substantial inherited money, and long term annual incomes of over 200K.

I don't think we'll ever get back to the days that were my parents years, when one income supported 5 people, a house, and two cars. That era was anomalous.

[Spartana]

I really think you should watch the show. The purpose of the show is not to say this is the way it is for everyone, or the way it will be. It simply documents two families who over the last twenty years have seen the loss of decent paying manufacturing jobs shipped overseas replaced by minimum wage, low benefit jobs that rise and fall with the economic tide. These are people who lived in modest homes and weren't trying to take European vacations, build fancy new mcmansions etc. I used to feel like some posters here as I was going along my middle class life but I have seen too much. And all these people who have had to take lower paying jobs or be out of work for years will enjoy a much smaller social security check than those who were able to keep good paying jobs. We all can't be engineers, nurses etc. And even many of them have watched their benefits and high wages slip away. the timespan of the show was through many administrations so it was not political, just the reality that many people face that worked hard to try to make a middle class life for their family.

I agree. I saw the show and found it was very typical of many people who have worked in manufacturing type jobs - whether it;s the auto industry, clothing industry or ...well... just about every industry in America. Many of those jobs were fairly high paying union jobs with great benefits that got shipped off shore merely to reduce all those costs.

But this is in many ways the american reality if you look back in US history. During the late 1800's the manufacturing sectors of Europe off shored their plants to the USA. Causing high unemployment and deep poverty in Europe for the working class (and the ensuing migrations to the US of many Europeans). The east coast became a manufacturing mecca. Mills and factories (and their coal fired smog) dotted the landscape and provided many jobs (low income hard jobs unlike much of the modern manufacturing jobs). Yet even those failed evetually and were off shored to other countries and people lost much and needed to move and to tranistion into other types of works. Now all those old brick factories are trendy malls and loft apts (hiring low income service workers).

The same thing happened to much of the farming culture during the 20's and 30's depression and dust bowl. People lost everything, moved on to lower paying jobs in the service sector or in the newer manufactoring sectors that were arising, and moved to new parts of the country to find those jobs. Same thing happened in the manufacturing decline in the 70's, etc...

So the American Dream as it is now is a relatively new idea in many ways - one that has had to re-invent itself time and time again due to job loss, housing loss, worker migrations for jobs, etc... - and will always be a factor in life. There was a brief period of life after WWII where everything seemed golden but that was more a fluke then a long term reality. And as Roger pointed out, our current dream is one of mass consumption and big houses and big cars and luxury. That was not the norm thru out our history when a small plot of land and a little house that we'd live in until we died (often with a larger amount of extended family living with us) and pass on to the kids when we died. Now a days people don't just want a small slice of the American dream pie - they seem to want the whole pie and more.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I agree. I saw the show and found it was very typical of many people who have worked in manufacturing type jobs - whether it;s the auto industry, clothing industry or ...well... just about every industry in America. Many of those jobs were fairly high paying union jobs with great benefits that got shipped off shore merely to reduce all those costs.

But this is in many ways the american reality if you look back in US history. During the late 1800's the manufacturing sectors of Europe off shored their plants to the USA. Causing high unemployment and deep poverty in Europe for the working class (and the ensuing migrations to the US of many Europeans). The east coast became a manufacturing mecca. Mills and factories (and their coal fired smog) dotted the landscape and provided many jobs (low income hard jobs unlike much of the modern manufacturing jobs). Yet even those failed evetually and were off shored to other countries and people lost much and needed to move and to tranistion into other types of works. Now all those old brick factories are trendy malls and loft apts (hiring low income service workers).

The same thing happened to much of the farming culture during the 20's and 30's depression and dust bowl. People lost everything, moved on to lower paying jobs in the service sector or in the newer manufactoring sectors that were arising, and moved to new parts of the country to find those jobs. Same thing happened in the manufacturing decline in the 70's, etc...

So the American Dream as it is now is a relatively new idea in many ways - one that has had to re-invent itself time and time again due to job loss, housing loss, worker migrations for jobs, etc... - and will always be a factor in life. There was a brief period of life after WWII where everything seemed golden but that was more a fluke then a long term reality. And as Roger pointed out, our current dream is one of mass consumption and big houses and big cars and luxury. That was not the norm thru out our history when a small plot of land and a little house that we'd live in until we died (often with a larger amount of extended family living with us) and pass on to the kids when we died. Now a days people don't just want a small slice of the American dream pie - they seem to want the whole pie and more.

I think you bring up excellent points, Spartana. That little house you refer to on a small plot of land - I wonder if people were overall more happier and more content when life was "smaller", on a more human scale like you have described. I know that life spans were shorter then overall, but I wonder if the quality of life in general was not higher - even though that life lacked many modern gadgets? That life you describe sure sounds more appealing to me.

And I think you are right that that period of life after World War 2 was a blip on the radar screen. I have heard what happens to jobs being lost in an industry or many industries is called "creative destruction." Right now I am reading a book dating back to 1995 titled "The End of Work" by Jeremy Rifkin, which sort of ties into some of your ideas. But it also is quite depressing as the general premise is that automation and robotics and machinery is killing jobs not just here but also in the countries to which our jobs have been shipped over to. I don't know the answers but I do believe the future is going to look very different than the typical American expectation of life. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Something I just noticed as I left this site and moved on over to yahoo to check my email - on the yahoo news page there was a piece about the "jaw dropping homes of the stars." Get real, how many people are going to have that in their lives, honestly? As a society it might be better if we focused more on the paid off double wide on an acre of land that is organically farmed somewhere with fairly cheap land, say in some part of Texas that still gets rain? Or maybe Kansas?

My point is that it might be wiser to focus on more realistic expectations for the future. Rob

[iris lilies]

Something I just noticed as I left this site and moved on over to yahoo to check my email - on the yahoo news page there was a piece about the "jaw dropping homes of the stars." Get real, how many people are going to have that in their lives, honestly? As a society it might be better if we focused more on the paid off double wide on an acre of land that is organically farmed somewhere with fairly cheap land, say in some part of Texas that still gets rain? Or maybe Kansas?

My point is that it might be wiser to focus on more realistic expectations for the future. Rob

Yahoo isn't exactly News of Important, Deep Items that Require Thoughtful Reading and Analysis.

Now that you mention it, that's another thing I like about America: there can be all kinds of media organizations reporting all kinds of news from the frivolous to the complex. Choice. It's a good thing.

[Rogar]

My last wage earning work was in manufacturing with an American company that still prospers. We had jobs for temporary workers that started at $12-$15 hr. hour. Reliable workers had maybe a 50/50 chance of becoming permanent and one of those disappearing middle class jobs with good wage, health care and pension benefits. Entry level work was generally difficult and menial and shifts, but would usually lead to advancement sometimes into management and usually into a decent job.. The company had a policy of team directed work units, where line workers had some say in-day-today operations. In spite of all this, the company had trouble finding reliable people willing to persevere the rough temporary work at the beginning of employment.

I sometimes wonder if those actually wanting the American Dream are less willing to pay the price of admission. My grandmother was a single mother, and provided room and board in her home to pay for my mother's college. Who lets rooms or provides room and board these days? Through all of the hard financial times there have been businesses requiring certain skills, like instrumentation technicians for example, who have had trouble finding workers to fill openings. My father was an undertaker, and again, always had trouble finding good help.

But like Rob has said, how desirable is the modern version of the American Dream anyway, and is it worth the price of admission.

[Lainey]

I saw the show, too, redfox. Very moving, and I was glad to see the update on what had happened to the two families and to the next generation.
An especially poignant moment is when the now 49 year old divorced mom/grandmother goes back to the house she lost to foreclosure. The new owners, a young couple, let her in to look around. They had bought her house for $38,000. Yet the bank would not negotiate a lower interest rate or payment with the divorced mom who had owned that house for 24 years. She is now saving up money hoping to get a trailer and live in a trailer park.

Is that a higher standard of living than Zimbabwe? yes is that the bar we've set for life-long working people? Be glad you don't live in a tent??