Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?

[CathyA]

catherine.........I'm a little slow. Could you please explain that passage to me in simple terms? Thanks!

[gimmethesimplelife]

And the plot continues to thicken.....turns out that the officer who arrested and assaulted the two journalists at the Ferguson McDonalds? Turns out that he not too long ago hog tied and choked a twelve year old for no apparent reason....according to gawker.com. Google gawker Ferguson Police Officer hog ties and chokes twelve year old for the story. Lots and lots and lots of rot and declining basic human rights is what I see here.....that and this cop needs to be fired and have his pension stripped from him pronto with national attention on the pension loss so that it strikes terror into the hearts of other cops (like nothing else could is my belief). Rob

[Alan]

Lots and lots and lots of rot and declining basic human rights is what I see here.....that and this cop needs to be fired and have his pension stripped from him pronto with national attention on the pension loss so that it strikes terror into the hearts of other cops (like nothing else could is my belief). Rob

Should every public servant be fired and lose their pension at the moment someone makes an accusation or should they enjoy due process?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Should every public servant be fired and lose their pension at the moment someone makes an accusation or should they enjoy due process?

I'm all for due process - but for those convicted, immediate loss of pension and job. The only problem that I can see with what I have just typed is that police tend to get away with their misdeeds - there needs to be some mechanism in place to flatten their egos and make them afraid. I don't really trust due process per se but I don't know of a fair vehicle for them to have their day in court, which I do believe they should have. I can't think of a better solution than instant pension loss for police misbehavior - I still think that would strike terror into the hearts of police officers everywhere. I can't think of anything more effective. Like to flatten and punish the cop I referenced above - there is someone who really should not be drawing a pension. I'd bet being terrified of losing it would squelch his behavior overnight. Rob

[Alan]

So you are in favor of "flattening and punishing" cops without the benefit of due process because you believe due process doesn't work for cops. That kind of thinking really scares me.

[gimmethesimplelife]

So you are in favor of "flattening and punishing" cops without the benefit of due process because you believe due process doesn't work for cops. That kind of thinking really scares me.

From what I have seen police officers seem to be mostly immune to their misdeeds - yet another reason I have no faith in American police or courts. Some kind of change needs to be affected as more people are waking up to the militarization and the heavy handedness and the immunity they enjoy from the law. All this coupled with the fact that they actually get a pension in this economy is too much for many people, at least many people I know. Yes, I do think they need to be punished when going over the line and in general need their attitudes and egos flattened. Such is definitely the case in Ferguson, Missouri. And I can't think of a fairer and quicker and more effective way than to instill terror of instant pension loss for misdeeds. Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

Should every public servant be fired and lose their pension at the moment someone makes an accusation or should they enjoy due process?

of course that's kind of how it works with everyone else's job (that's not a civil servant). Is "employment at will" anti due proces? But cops are heavily unionized, too much so IMO. No I'm not anti-union. If the rest of us had more of that "due process" it might be a good thing. But everything can be taken too far (inability to hold accountable is - the ability to fire - maybe after costing your employer 4.5 million would be enough) and for civil servants it becomes complex (because there ultimate salary payer is the taxpayer). And I don't think ANY civil servants have stronger unions than the cops, teachers probably only dream they did.

[dmc]

From what I have seen police officers seem to be mostly immune to their misdeeds - yet another reason I have no faith in American police or courts. Some kind of change needs to be affected as more people are waking up to the militarization and the heavy handedness and the immunity they enjoy from the law. All this coupled with the fact that they actually get a pension in this economy is too much for many people, at least many people I know. Yes, I do think they need to be punished when going over the line and in general need their attitudes and egos flattened. Such is definitely the case in Ferguson, Missouri. And I can't think of a fairer and quicker and more effective way than to instill terror of instant pension loss for misdeeds. Rob

I wonder what your neighborhood would look like with no police. North St. Louis would be looted and burned to the ground. I'm thankful that we have those that chose be police officers. Someone has to keep the thugs in line. I have several friends who are police officers and they couldn't be better people.

You should read some of your post, remove police and put in Gay, Black, ect. You sound like a bigot. I wish you would go ahead and move already to your utopian homeland. Where everyone is lower class and there is no police. I'm sure you will fit right in. But Id lock the doors. And buy a gun, you'll need it.

[Alan]

Yes, I do think they need to be punished when going over the line and in general need their attitudes and egos flattened. Such is definitely the case in Ferguson, Missouri. And I can't think of a fairer and quicker and more effective way than to instill terror of instant pension loss for misdeeds. Rob

Seems to me to be a kinder, gentler form of lynching. Democracy (mob rule) at it's finest.

[catherine]

Hard to know since in this case, Ferguson, (which your post may or may not have anything to do with) the feitishization taking place is of the thug. Teddy bears, MadDog bottles, flowers, etc laid out in the street at the scene of Mike Brown's death, rioting and destrcution in his honor, and chanting unique slogans to evoke only him--that is fetish. And more: a "family" autopsy by a celebrity shaman coronor for hire Dr. Baden performed on his body, and famous shake down shamans Sharpton and J Jackson paying tribute to him--all supporting this fetish.

He is a thug who, within a 15 minute period, robbed a store and threatened a man a third of his size and had physical altercation with a policeman which resulted in his death.

Are you saying that Jensen's theory is illustrative of thug society in this way: in the thug community the 292 lb thugs are high up there in the hierarchy, and in many black communities that is true. Who runs the corners? The drug lords and their thug lieutenants. I didn't think Ferguson was that far gone, but perhaps it is. Mike Brown was an up and coming thug, a newly emergent strong and powerful guy, a prince of thugs you could say. So yeah, his fetishization fits with Jensen's theory.

Yeah, I was on the fence about even posting this, since I haven't been engaged in this particular thread, and I've never read a Derrick Jensen book so I can't speak for what I think he meant, really. But philosophically, I do think you can see how this might be true. Some might call the police authority the top end of the hierarchy, in which case, Michael Brown's alleged attack on Wilson while he was in his car would seem to be far more egregious than Wilson's shooting Brown at 35 feet. Many of us who respect the authority of the police are likely to justify his action as self defense, while being disgusted at Brown's aggression.

But, yes, I hadn't thought about what you said--talking cultural/social hierarchy, then you have the social hierarchy of the black culture in Ferguson where the justification/horror switch is flipped. I have to think about that.. I haven't had my first cup of coffee yet.

I personally can think of many other situations in which his premise does and has born out over time--think of the "bad" Indians against the "good" cowboys, to take one example very simplistically. So I just thought I'd apply it to the Ferguson situation and see what people thought.

I really think that the Ferguson situation has reduced the conversation to a "us/them" discussion--a discussion that will lead us nowhere. The media has been playing off that beautifully, stirring up one faction against another. We have very few facts about what actually happened, but perceptions and beliefs and personal filters have shaped two different "realities" which are tearing people apart.