Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?

[Alan]

Alan, I'm shocked! I might have a spare I can loan you!

I could use that broadaxe on a project this weekend if it's available. Gonna try my hand at decorating a fresh stump.

[iris lilies]

I'm willing to wait for the facts to come out. You have seamed to have already made up your mind. But I will admit I tend to side with the police story. It's much more believable that Michael Brown attacked the officer than the other way around. What did the officer have to gain for shooting him? Brown had just robbed a store, as you say a known thug.

Do you believe that the officer was trying to pull a 300lb man thru the window or is it more likely that Brown was attacking him and reaching for his gun?

One of my WTF moments came a couple of weeks ago now when Mike Brown's sidekick in crime gave a televised interview and said that when the police officer opened his car door "it ricocheted..." and closed. Immediately my BS meter went off. Car doors don't "ricochet," the thugs pushed it closed. The passive way thug #2 describes the door's action as though he had nothing to do with it is telling.

But that said, I think there is still a lot of unknown detail between Mike Brown's likely aggression and shooting him dead, and Officer Wilson making a decision to NOT shoot him might be one of several reasonable actions.

[catherine]

Maybe the white police get really tired of seeing this kind of behavior day after day after day. Just like French people might get tired of seeing Islamic behavior......and Italy might get tired of seeing North African behavior, etc., etc., etc.
I'm rambling. My point is, perhaps we're expecting too much to think that extremely different cultures can live in harmony?
Like I've said in another thread somewhere here.........I like trying to understand what brings us to the present situations.
Whatever we're doing now to make it all work, seems fairly futile to me.

Cathy, I've been thinking about this today, and especially after watching two hours of Derrick Jensen (who is not the person to listen to if you want to believe things are not futile).

I definitely think cultures can get along, but it takes really, really feeling that we are all on the same team.

I have a weird idea that the whole "7 generations" thing is actually true, and that we probably have about 50-60 years to hammer out with the African American community before they feel they can trust us (if you use the end of the Civil War to start the 7 generations clock). If you were reading a comic book about the Ferguson incident and everyone was the same color, things would be perceived far differently. But the truth is, if you look at the Buddhist concept of "store consciousness" (where past experiences are stored) there is so much there that has to be acknowledged and addressed on both sides. If we eliminate the concepts of "blame" and "victimhood" we have a starting point.

Some people are better able to transcend differences than others. DH and I were watching Slumdog Millionaire last night and he recalled how disappointed he was that when we put it on TV for his mother to watch she would have none of it. It was "an Indian movie" and she found it completely irrelevant, without even giving it a try. We have to see ourselves in every other person if we want to get to the point you're talking about, where we can all co-exist "in a new era of healthy community spirit and peace" as bae said (sarcastically). Yes, we have a LOOOONGGGG way to go. Maybe you and Derrick Jensen are right about the futility.

I'm hoping Jane is right, and that the younger generations are going to push us in the right direction.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Cathy, I've been thinking about this today, and especially after watching two hours of Derrick Jensen (who is not the person to listen to if you want to believe things are not futile).

even psychologists have labeled me the most pessimistic person they have ever met so ... breath in, futility, breath out, futility Probably not good for me to watch that

I definitely think cultures can get along, but it takes really, really feeling that we are all on the same team.

I have a weird idea that the whole "7 generations" thing is actually true, and that we probably have about 50-60 years to hammer out with the African American community before they feel they can trust us (if you use the end of the Civil War to start the 7 generations clock). If you were reading a comic book about the Ferguson incident and everyone was the same color, things would be perceived far differently. But the truth is, if you look at the Buddhist concept of "store consciousness" (where past experiences are stored) there is so much there that has to be acknowledged and addressed on both sides.

Some people are better able to transcend differences than others. DH and I were watching Slumdog Millionaire last night and he recalled how disappointed he was that when we put it on TV for his mother to watch she would have none of it. It was "an Indian movie" and she found it completely irrelevant, without even giving it a try. We have to see ourselves in every other person if we want to get to the point you're talking about, where we can all co-exist "in a new era of healthy community spirit and peace" as bae said (sarcastically). Yes, we have a LOOOONGGGG way to go.

If someone doesn't like a certain race or class or the combination because of personal experiences, that kind of is what it is. Except to note that "all generalities are false" But of course one has no obligation to hang out with that race/class. Except those very people you hate are probably posting on this board and you don't even know it - because intertubes! But if one's generalities are based on experience (not just being "carefully taught") and maybe even early life experience as a kid or something (school integration went really badly initially) then it no doubt has a great deal of personal validity (but ALL generalities ....). However systematically how minorities have been treated in this country, and none worse than African Americans, except perhaps native Americans (yea, yea even Irish were discriminated against but I'm standing by that statement), for decades and decades and decades, even very very recently, even now some might say and I wouldn't argue, is just a crime of epic proportions. And these communities are probably still reeling even economically from all that was done to them .... (a lot of economic opportunities were limited for decades and decades and decades) and it would probably be best to understand that before criticizing them.

Not (white) "guilt" because to argue people are responsible for what happened before they were born is completely absurd, and even to argue that people are entirely responsible as individuals for their society is also absurd though not quite to the same degree (it's a difficult question ...). Not guilt - guilt is for children. Not guilt but simple acknowledgement of history.

[Gregg]

Rob though wants to punish everyone in the officer's department, and have them move forward living in fear and terror if anyone steps out of line, as judged by Rob's Mob and the Twitterverse. I think we should instead just eliminate police forces entirely, and usher in a new era of healthy community spirit and peace.

If Mr. Brown's replacement is willing to try, so am I.

[gimmethesimplelife]

And the plot continues to thicken, this time with real evidence though since I am not familiar with guns, I don't know what the evidence means. It seems as if someone in Ferguson hired an attorney to step forward with evidence - apparently they have audio of the shooting that shows six shots being fired in rapid succession, then a gap - a long space with no shots - and then four more. I don't know how this will impact the case but it does seem to be concrete evidence and if it proves the cop should be indicted - great. If it proves otherwise, great. At least it's something concrete. Rob

[Alan]

And the plot continues to thicken, this time with real evidence though since I am not familiar with guns, I don't know what the evidence means. It seems as if someone in Ferguson hired an attorney to step forward with evidence - apparently they have audio of the shooting that shows six shots being fired in rapid succession, then a gap - a long space with no shots - and then four more. I don't know how this will impact the case but it does seem to be concrete evidence and if it proves the cop should be indicted - great. If it proves otherwise, great. At least it's something concrete. Rob

I'm not sure what thickening of plot this implies. I heard the tape this morning and there is an approximate 2 second gap in the gunfire. If they were fired at a person advancing upon the officer I would think it prudent to infer that the officer stopped firing when the person stopped, then started again as the person again advanced.
If the witnesses who reported Michael Brown was advancing upon the officer are to be believed, this makes perfect sense.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I suspect the residents of Ferguson might prefer self-policing at this point. Has anyone asked them? If not why project our beliefs (about whether we would rather have police or not) on them? Now of course this doesn't mean it's actually a practical plan. That's not actually how government works, to allow competing governments it's in midst! Hey feel free to disprove, but I think governments by their very nature, protect the monopoly of force thing. The practical plan short of revolution is reform within the system obviously - yawn, but really.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I suspect the residents of Ferguson might prefer self-policing at this point. Has anyone asked them? If not why project our beliefs (about whether we would rather have police or not) on them? Now of course this doesn't mean it's actually a practical plan. That's not actually how government works, to allow competing governments it's in midst! Hey feel free to disprove, but I think government protect the monopoly of force thing.

I agree with you 100% and then some! I do believe the government wants to protect the monopoly of the force thing and I do believe self policing might be worth a try.....scary thought to cops everywhere, I'm sure. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm not sure what thickening of plot this implies. I heard the tape this morning and there is an approximate 2 second gap in the gunfire. If they were fired at a person advancing upon the officer I would think it prudent to infer that the officer stopped firing when the person stopped, then started again as the person again advanced.
If the witnesses who reported Michael Brown was advancing upon the officer are to be believed, this makes perfect sense.

What I meant was now that there is some evidence, real evidence being released, maybe things will be clearer now. Who knows? I don't know what this audio proves, but I'm glad it exists even it if serves to have the office not indicted. Better real proof of something than continued rioting and looting and continued heavy handed police behavior that makes us the laughing stock of the developed world and quite hypocritical internationally. I wonder once the lawsuits roll in if Ferguson will even have a police department any more? Rob