Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?

[ApatheticNoMore]

But what I don't understand is..........think of the holocaust. Maybe all the Jews now secretly hate all Germans, but I don't think that's true.

well the Jews that stayed in Germany I don't think many survived, and so I don't think there's much of a line of descent of "Jews in Germany".

It's never just the past, it's always how the past is active now (like the massive incarceration rate, in general compared to other countries, yes of course, but it is also pretty massive for African Americans especially males).

[Alan]

I think everyone trying to make this racial are missing the true focus. This country has multi-racial communities of hooligans and thugs who think it is acceptable to inflict violence on others. To me, the question should be "What can we do to change the acceptance of violent behavior in certain communities?"

[nswef]

Alan, I agree with you. As long as violent behavior is not only accepted, but praised and documented as justified ....violence will occur, beginning with our own Department of Defense...formerly and more accurately the War Department. Violent solutions are all we seem to be able to see.

[CathyA]

Thanks for that explanation catherine!

[jp1]

But what I don't understand is..........think of the holocaust. Maybe all the Jews now secretly hate all Germans, but I don't think that's true. Why do some people hang on to things longer than others? Sometimes I think it's just an excuse to vent one's free-floating anger.

Perhaps because they were subjected to them longer. The holocaust lasted less than one full generation. Nobody was raised in the holocaust and went on to raise another generation in it. In other words, it never became the accepted norm that parents passed on to their children. Slavery lasted through several generations.

[iris lilies]

I told you it's a weird idea. In my mind I think that the "sins of the father" (meaning, in this case, the sins of the white colonialists who made the slave trade a part of our culture) will take many years, many generations to overcome. So while it's easy for many of us to say, "get over it, blacks have alot more opportunity now," the remnants and the repercussions of slavery are still alive in the descendents of the slaves, and we, as a society, still suffer from those consequences.

I'm happy that you coexist happily in SC as a color-blind community, but as a country, the wounds are not healed. You see that in the disparities in the experience of blacks vs. whites today. Even Megyn Kelly gave Bill O'Reilly a talking-to about this.

OK, maybe my math is wrong, but a generation is typically defined as around 30 years, so 7 generations is 210 years. And I don't take this literally, like in 2075 everyone will wake up all healed and happy. But I think time has to pass, and I think that the response to the event in Ferguson is still tied to how blacks were treated in 1865, not even consciously, but subconsciously, almost at a cellular level.

In the book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" by Gabor Mate (which is a wonderful book about addiction), he talks about how children who are in utero when their mothers are going through a stressful time have that stress imprinted in their DNA. They haven't felt stress at all--but it's transferred to them, and the likelihood of them growing up to be addicts is more likely than those whose mothers were stress-free. So I think it's a similar concept, and also similar to the Jungian concept of the collective consciousness. Some things are transferred through time, through "ether," through cells.. and they hang around, until we transform the experiences and feelings and change things for future generations.

I wondered how you were counting "generations" since I figured 1=20 years and that ticking clock rang a few years ago. about 2005. Notice that nothing has changed. Derrick Jensen is just one more pontificating blowhard.

There is institutionalized racism in this country, and in all countries. It's sad and unfortunate that dark skin=more distrust and dislike heaped upon people. Of course, it's not just skin color in the U.S., it's a whole culture of values and behaviors that the underclass cling to, and that cause disrespect/fear/distrust/ and that does not serve them well, at least if they aspire to secure a stable economic place in our society. Is it worse in the U.S? It's worse here than in some places. It's better here than in some places. And it's worse/better here in the U.S. depending upon region. But "women are the n.i.g.g.e.r.s of the world" according to famed philosophers* so African Americans do not have the market cornered on victim-hood.

Now that the looting and rioting is over for the moment in my metro area, the airwaves, print media and tv are overwhelmed with racism discussions, calls for race discussion, and planning for discussion of race.

Yawn, I think I will avoid "The Conversation" since I've been hearing this stuff for 25 years and it bores me. At one time I was open and willing to participate, having been well trained up by educated liberal parents who lived in a lily white state in a white suburb (we had one African American in my class of 240 students and he was elected class President. His father was a physician. He was pretty suburban) then I moved to the 'hood and got real about criminals and the po-lice here.

In my neighborhood the po-lice are on my side, no questions, it is clear.We know our beat cop by name, DH regularly calls him (just called him this week in fact about a door nob theft) and we strive toward good relations with the police department. We take up collections for him, we attend Guns And Hoses each year and/or donate (fundraiser fo Backstoppers) and we furnish the police substation with food and drink. We cultivate the presence of police here because they keep the bad guys at bay.


*yoko and john lennon

[iris lilies]

I agree with you 100% and then some! I do believe the government wants to protect the monopoly of the force thing and I do believe self policing might be worth a try.....scary thought to cops everywhere, I'm sure. Rob

Rob, cops aren't going to be "scared" of the idea, but I'd be scared of this thug who would be "self policing" Ferguson (note his gun in his waistband) unless he was too busy looting. His cronies tried to "get" the photographer who took this photo earlier in the night. You were all heated up about journalists being treated badly upthread, what do you think should happen to the protestors who went after a journalist? I'll bet you didn't hear about that on Buzzfeed, Huffpo or the kos.




article titled "Attacked on the job: a photographers' tale" is here:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/lrqtlmo



photo here:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/multime...688ee9738.html

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think that even if the underclass changed all their values and behaviors so that they didn't cause disrespect/fear/distrust, that while this might serve them better individually (and does it need saying I have no problem with people helping themselves this way individually) - someone else would take the place of an underclass (as a new underclass) if it wasn't whoever does now. Because there aren't enough high wage jobs or even jobs period to go around! And our leaders have no interest in maximizing say good jobs as national POLICY. Or massive amounts of jobs wouldn't have been outsourced etc! Quite a problem there. The middle class - well some of it is just manners and mannerism, values and preferences, but the middle class also takes extreme measures to protect thier middle class-ness generationally (all about moving to where the good school districts are or private school etc.).. If you aren't born into that your already behind.

I'm not engaging in some national race discussion (if I wanted that I could post blindly to twitter or something, tag it right and hope for retweets), I'm exchanging discussion with particular individuals who are posting on this thread.

I don't think black ghetto culture is necessarily easy for white culture to understand and get along with. But I really do think much of it stems from decades of AND current racial discrimination. I don't think individual whites (unless they have a lot of power - well if they are police they do have some) necessarily bear much blame for this.

But one can continue to discussion of "what to do with the African Americans in this country" until it becomes much like the "jewish question/jewish problem" in Europe was for all those years before the holocaust (oops Godwin). But that definitely doesn't seem the way to go.

[iris lilies]

I think that even if the underclass changed all their values and behaviors so that they didn't cause disrespect/fear/distrust... someone else would take the place of an underclass (as a new underclass) if it wasn't whoever does now...

Probably. But those underclass cultures and persons have traditionally moved onwards and upwards, and traditionally it is new immigrants who get the grunt jobs, work the grunt jobs, educate their children, and are able to move out of my city and its ghetto cultures within one generation. The Vietnamese came to the city 30 years ago and have moved on to toney suburbs; the Bosnians came here 15+ years ago and are moving on. Neither group wants to live among the urban poor who are African American, it's a real phenomena. Historically we saw it happen 120 years ago with the Irish and 80 years ago with the Chinese. One underclass permanently remains. And certainly institutional racism plays a heavy role here.

[Packy]

Probably. But those underclass cultures and persons have traditionally moved onwards and upwards, and traditionally it is new immigrants who get the grunt jobs, work the grunt jobs, educate their children, and are able to move out of my city and its ghetto cultures within one generation. The Vietnamese came to the city 30 years ago and have moved on to toney suburbs; the Bosnians came here 15+ years ago and are moving on. Neither group wants to live among the urban poor who are African American, it's a real phenomena. Historically we saw it happen 120 years ago with the Irish and 80 years ago with the Chinese. One underclass permanently remains. And certainly institutional racism plays a heavy role here.

Well, Iris: I'm just trying to figure out what you kids are still doing in da hood after what--25 years? It sounds like you are very much at-risk for being a crime victim of the hard-core underclass, there. As you said, many disadvantaged people(immigrants) have come and gone on to safer areas, as soon as they climbed the economic ladder. Again, my question is: Whaddya waiting for?