Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I don't think that will gain much traction in a neighborhood where the police need to explain "you probably shouldn't gather in crowds and loot and burn stores".

They didn't even have the basic respect to at least try it before behaving like storm troopers. Only fix I can see is instant pension loss and huge settlements for all town residents. Those people in Ferguson? They were worth the respect for a short explanation before behaving like storm troopers. Now the police need to suffer consequences for their behavior, if only so that other police elsewhere think twice about pulling the same. As far as the current police force in Ferguson goes.....methinks there will be upcoming changes. Rob

Something else - not all protestors were looting and burning, Bae. There were those who were law compliant who were still assaulted, threatened, and teargassed. Instant lawsuits.....the Ferguson police certainly have them coming. This was way way way over the top and needs to be addressed. Can you think of a better way than 24/7 terror of pension loss? Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

then the police need to explain this doesn't belong in the middle of the street, minus the dogs urinating on it and minus driving over it to destroy it.

was the street closed to thru traffic anyway? I don't know, I figure there's a decent chance of that (roped off perhaps?). If so a memorial in the middle of a street closed for traffic isn't really interfering with traffic. But it might still be illegal? Sure, so is lots of stuff. But the strong compelling reason for not placing a memorial in the street (to allow for traffic duh), wouldn't be there. And even if there was a reason (say some traffic let through with a blockage) it would not be immediately obvious, so yea an explanation - it would accomplish at least as much as pissing dogs, considering pissing dogs doesn't actually accomplish anything but escalation.

[Packy]

I remember that reactionary bumper sticker from back in the early 70's, that said: "If you don't like the Police, next time you need help--call a Hippie!". I am disclaiming any advocacy of that; I just thought I'd post it here, for everyone to chew on, like a big greasy piece of Pizza or a Rotisserie Chicken.

[Yossarian]

but the rule of law has to work TWO WAYS with the police not being above the law

OK, no halfway here, I agree 100%. But there is a difference between bad policy and criminal acts. Mobs are scary and unpredictable. As someone on another forum pointed out that when containing a mob the cops generally have 2 options: coercion or force. As much as you would like to criticize coercive (e.g. scary) tactics, I think we can all agree it is better than force- clubbing or shooting people. If any cops acted against policy or good judgment they should be disciplined. Peaceful protest should be allowed without undue interference. If the standard playbook is outdated and there are lessons to be learned about other psychological crowd control tactics let's figure those out for next time. But once the mayhem breaks loose I think your riot buddies lose the moral high ground and I'm not throwing the cops under the bus for responding to criminal behavior without more details.

Something else - not all protestors were looting and burning, Bae. There were those who were law compliant who were still assaulted, threatened, and teargassed.

My guess is things are more complicated than your "off with their heads, er, pensions" pronouncements but time will tell. You know, that whole due process thing just isn't as quick as tweeting.

[iris lilies]

I remember that reactionary bumper sticker from back in the early 70's, that said: "If you don't like the Police, next time you need help--call a Hippie!". I am disclaiming any advocacy of that; I just thought I'd post it here, for everyone to chew on, like a big greasy piece of Pizza or a Rotisserie Chicken.

Only if the Pizza has peperoni, only then will I chew it.

haha, not really. I much prefer Italian sausage. That and mushrooms and lotsa onions.

[iris lilies]

Then the police need to explain this doesn't belong in the middle of the street...

Oh sure, the "police need to explain."

Like their word, their authority, would be respected by you. What a hypocritical statement that is.

I think it's fine, although completely silly, that people stack up teddy bears and Mad Dog liquor bottles in a totem for Mike Brown, but for heaven's sake the stackers may not claim ignorance of simple laws of physics when wheeled vehicles move about in the area. Do it, suffer the consequences, stop bitching about it.

The kos and their ken are reaching for reasons to be hurt and outraged, and beating that dead horse is the project at hand.

There are serious issues represented by the Ferguson incident, but peeing dogs is not one of them. That obsession weakens their case.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Oh sure, the "police need to explain."

Like their word, their authority, would be respected by you. What a hypocritical statement that is.

I think it's fine, although completely silly, that people stack up teddy bears and Mad Dog liquor bottles in a totem for Mike Brown, but for heaven's sake the stackers may not claim ignorance of simple laws of physics when wheeled vehicles move about in the area. Do it, suffer the consequences, stop bitching about it.

The kos and their ken are reaching for reasons to be hurt and outraged, and beating that dead horse is the project at hand.

There are serious issues represented by the Ferguson incident, but peeing dogs is not one of them. That obsession weakens their case.

Surprise, surprise, IL. I would actually listen to the police and do as they say if only to get out of their line of vision and fire as quickly as possible. I have witnessed human rights violations committed by the Phoenix police right in front of my eyes in my neighborhood, I would want as little to do with them as possible. That said, if they went over the top with me, instant calls to the media, instant social media posts, instant lawsuit, and instant attempts to try to gain national media coverage. I love and respect myself and would leave no stone unturned in standing up for myself. If I didn't, I'd be just as guilty as the police as it's tacit approval for them to treat the next person this way.

That said, if a police encounter with me did not go over the top, I'd politely comply and try to get off their radar ASAP. Very little good can come of police contact for most lower income people - America has taught me that and I chose to not to deny the lesson. Unpleasant though it is. And moving along, an explanation, especially with audio/video, would be great CYA here. And I agree with your point that there are more serious issues involved in Ferguson than the dogs urinating on the memorial. This intense disrespect though does serve to show a pattern of complete and total disgust and discrimination and disdain for the community of Ferguson. Such events can be used by the wise to alter perceptions and with so many already seeing heavy handedness and excessive force - this was not a bright act on the part of the Ferguson police. Not at all. Thank goodness for social media so the rest of the world can find out if interested.....Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Only if the Pizza has peperoni, only then will I chew it.

haha, not really. I much prefer Italian sausage. That and mushrooms and lotsa onions.

I vote for pineapple, mushroom, and bell pepper. With extra cheese. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

OK, no halfway here, I agree 100%. But there is a difference between bad policy and criminal acts. Mobs are scary and unpredictable. As someone on another forum pointed out that when containing a mob the cops generally have 2 options: coercion or force. As much as you would like to criticize coercive (e.g. scary) tactics, I think we can all agree it is better than force- clubbing or shooting people. If any cops acted against policy or good judgment they should be disciplined. Peaceful protest should be allowed without undue interference. If the standard playbook is outdated and there are lessons to be learned about other psychological crowd control tactics let's figure those out for next time. But once the mayhem breaks loose I think your riot buddies lose the moral high ground and I'm not throwing the cops under the bus for responding to criminal behavior without more details.



My guess is things are more complicated than your "off with their heads, er, pensions" pronouncements but time will tell. You know, that whole due process thing just isn't as quick as tweeting.

Much of your post here I both agree with and appreciate. I am of the opinion that the standard playbook needs an update but who knows? Maybe that will be the good that comes out of this? I do agree that once rioting breaks out the moral high ground gets murkier and not crystal clear and I don't blame you for wanting more details. I don't think that's wrong at all. I can only post my perceptions based on what I have seen on the media, read, and based on how I have seen police act in my lifetime and based on the fear of the police I have learned as an American citizen. Obviously, not everyone is going to interpret what they see and read and hear on the media the same, and not everyone has had the life experiences I have had that cause me to fear the police. I get that. And I do agree that mobs are scary and unpredictable - but I'm seeing police behavior, such as with the destruction/allowing their dogs to urinate on the Michael Brown memorial thrown together - that is over the top, scary, very telling of major police attitude and belief issues, and not mob related. I'm trying to place myself in the shoes of a cop dealing with a mob and there's no way I can know exactly what that is like though I'm going to guess scary and potentially clouding judgment as no one can know just how far the mob will go. Still, due to the militarization and having guns trained on the peaceful protestors alone - I'm going to have a hard time siding with the police. Though I understand YMMV and I do see some of your points and even agree with some of them. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

was the street closed to thru traffic anyway? I don't know, I figure there's a decent chance of that (roped off perhaps?). If so a memorial in the middle of a street closed for traffic isn't really interfering with traffic. But it might still be illegal? Sure, so is lots of stuff. But the strong compelling reason for not placing a memorial in the street (to allow for traffic duh), wouldn't be there. And even if there was a reason (say some traffic let through with a blockage) it would not be immediately obvious, so yea an explanation - it would accomplish at least as much as pissing dogs, considering pissing dogs doesn't actually accomplish anything but escalation.

APN - good question. I'll go back and read the story and see if I can find any details as to whether the area was closed off to traffic or not. Rob