Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?

[Alan]

I'd be curious to see if gun deaths are also up in other countries that have legalized abortion.

Expand that curiosity to violence rather than specific gun deaths. Guns are just a tool of violent people.

[jp1]

Fair enough. Whatever you want to show to justify your position that societal acceptance of abortion causes increases in violence or death will be fine with me.

[Alan]

Fair enough. Whatever you want to show to justify your position that societal acceptance of abortion causes increases in violence or death will be fine with me.

That's the funny thing about positions and how they are perceived, the one doing the perceiving seldom scratches the surface of hot button issues. The devaluation of life goes beyond societal acceptance of abortion, although that remains an excellent example.

[flowerseverywhere]

We've devalued human life, most notably in the abortion debate where popular consensus seems to be that a life is not a life unless I value it, and we've made excuses for thuggery because it makes us feel better to hold those we look down upon to lower standards. It is the societal cost of progressivism.

Where did you find your statistics to support this point of view. China for example has a very high abortion rate. http://world.time.com/2013/09/30/wha...ion-abortions/

yet a very low intentional homicide rate.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_..._homicide_rate

Could legal gun ownership be a factor in our high murder rate? In china, private citizens are generally not allowed to own guns and illegal gun ownership has very high penalties, like death.

[ApatheticNoMore]

That's the funny thing about positions and how they are perceived, the one doing the perceiving seldom scratches the surface of hot button issues. The devaluation of life goes beyond societal acceptance of abortion, although that remains an excellent example.

It's an example. War devalues life? In fact I can think of nothing that more devalues life than the wholesale murder of not fetuses but born human beings that is war - what can even compare? We live in a country ALWAYS ALWAYS at war. But once in a blue moon a war is justified, fine whatever, I'm not going to disagree with the hypothetical and the warmongers can keep WWII. But that's not what's going on at present or anytime in the recent past (not since WWII I suspect). Being indifferent to what seems an epidemic of police brutality devalues life. Judging human worth on external attributes (how rich they are, how much status they have, whether they are "wiinners" or "losers", whether they have "bling", whether they have made all the "right choices" or not, whether they are "too old" etc.) devalues life in a sense doesn't it? Because life is none of those things, it is the raw, existing, living, force. Yes I think this society devalues life.

Interesting post. I think you may be on to something here. I for myself know I'd rather have the social benefits over the liberty any day as I've seen the price of liberty and the inequalities that arise as a result of this thinking and how easy it can be to fall through the cracks. Maybe this is somewhere near the crux of my issues with the US.

and you are quite sure you will keep those social benefits with no civil liberties? Without the right to protest? Without the right to strike? Without the right to trial? Etc. Benevolent rulers will just grant them? (if one of those benevolent dictators is on offer I'll take one ). Are police states really good examples of social benefits in general? Yes the U.S. is a police state even on paper (NDAA) (and yes it's a matter of degree, a continuum, and yes there are worse).

[bae]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legaliz...d_crime_effect


Also, you might want to look at the data on trends in *rates* of crime in America, before spinning up just-so stories. For instance, amidst all this hand-wringing about today's super-high OMG murder rates...:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...lowest-century

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html

[Gardenarian]

Hi there. Just stopping by to see why this thread is 68 pages long!
Enjoy your discussion

[Alan]

Hi there. Just stopping by to see why this thread is 68 pages long!
Enjoy your discussion

LOL, if you judge the value of a discussion by the number of pages, there's a way to make it half (or a quarter, or less) as valuable. In your settings you can choose how many posts you see per page. I've got mine set at 20 so for me, this discussion is only 34 pages long.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Methinks this 68 pages will continue to grow, whether or not there is an indictment. For the simple reason that whatever the outcome here, there is no way to make everyone happy. Rob

[iris lilies]

Methinks this 68 pages will continue to grow, whether or not there is an indictment. For the simple reason that whatever the outcome here, there is no way to make everyone happy. Rob

I wasn't "happy" with the OJ Simpson verdict but neither did I riot in the streets. The OJ crime worked its way through the justice system, and the system worked the way it was supposed to. That it didn't turn out the verdict I thought was correct doesn't mean there was a travesty of justice. Justice was served, so be it.

I was surprised that OJ turned out to be a big thug, I really thought he was smoother than that.