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Thread: "Religious Freedom"

  1. #1
    Senior Member CathyA's Avatar
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    "Religious Freedom"

    I thought this was interesting in the paper today. How far do we go?

    Abdul: Legislature should forget religious liberty bill
    Abdul-Hakim Shabazz 10:25 p.m. EST January 17, 2015

    "Imagine that my lovely wife and I decide to try a new restaurant for dinner. However, as soon as we walk in, we’re told that we have to leave because we’re black.
    Naturally, I do what any red-blooded American would do and exercise my God-given right to sue.
    So we file a complaint, and after winding its way through the court system, it’s determined that the owner properly denied us service because he was covered under Indiana’s new Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Yes, he was discriminating against us because we’re minorities, but since the owner is a member of the Christian Identity movement, which believes people who look like me are “Satan-spawned mud races,” he is acting within his religious rights to deny the Lovely Mrs. Shabazz and me service.
    Sound crazy? Of course it does. But it’s also plausible if lawmakers aren’t careful in drafting the state’s version of the RFRA.
    State Sen. Scott Schneider has told the media the legislation is necessary because people of faith need the law to protect them from being compelled to engage in commercial practices that compromise their religious beliefs. The classic example of this is the religious baker who feels he or she should not be compelled to make a cake for a same-sex wedding. Usually the baker doesn’t unless he or she is operating in a jurisdiction that has added sexual orientation to its anti-discrimination laws. And in exchange for the business license, that baker has agreed to follow the laws and rules of that municipality.
    There are usually exceptions for religious employers (such as Catholic Charities), but not for employers who are religious. This is why the Christian Identity restaurateur is out of luck when my wife and I order some white fish.
    Supporters of the RFRA say it’s needed to protect religious liberty. But religious freedom is tricky business.
    For example, let’s say you have a devout Catholic who doesn’t want to rent hotel rooms to unmarried or divorced couples. The Muslim shopkeeper who takes Sharia customs to the extreme and says women cannot enter his store without a burka. Or the giant spaghetti monster followers who refuse to serve people who don’t believe in the giant spaghetti monster. You see where this is going.
    Are some of these examples extreme? Well that’s in the eye of the beholder, or if the RFPA goes into effect, the judge or jury, because that’s where a lot of this stuff will end up.
    Under the federal RFPA law, the government can’t do anything that places a “substantial burden” on someone who is exercising religious freedoms. But like most laws, there is an exception; the exception is that the government must show a compelling state interest as to why a rule that tramples religious freedom exists. This is where the judges, juries and lawyers come into play.
    Someone has to make the call as to whether someone exercising religious beliefs is being genuine or simply using it as a pretext for discrimination. If you make 50 cakes a day, is making one more cake for a same-sex wedding really going to put a substantial burden on you?
    I told you this was tricky business.
    At the end of the day, lawmakers should leave this one alone. You never know what kind of Pandora’s box you will open. No offense to the followers of the Greek Pantheon."

    Abdul is an attorney and the editor and publisher of IndyPolitics.Org. He can be reached at abdul@indypolitics.org.

  2. #2
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    You know, when it comes to religion, I believe that "L" should stand for "Love," not "Laws."

    Frankly, I remember the big lawsuit that made it to all the news outlets about a woman whose insurance refused birth control coverage because she was employed by a Catholic institution (can't remember which one.)

    I admit that there was a portion of my brain that sided with the Catholic institution--probably because of my Catholic heritage, which greatly influenced my own behavior and beliefs. But when I think rationally about it, and what it means for the general public, I think that this type of thing is part of the same slippery slope that the writer addresses. If I can protect the Catholic institution, why shouldn't I protect the Muslim business that demands burkas be worn?

    The older I get the more I feel aligned with "Christian anarchism" which would basically mean the fewer laws the better.. and that definitely means fewer religious laws--either as part of the religious community, or imposed on the secular community. So I side with Abdul.

    I wonder what would happen if we applied the principle of "Love your neighbor as yourself" to ALL these situations?
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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    That's not religious freedom, that's religious preferential treatment. If a secular excuse however silly wasn't an ok reason not to bake the cake, and a religious reason was.
    Trees don't grow on money

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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyA View Post
    Someone has to make the call as to whether someone exercising religious beliefs is being genuine or simply using it as a pretext for discrimination.
    I'm waiting to see this get flipped on someone's head. If I identify myself as a Christian business, can I legally be held to that? For a strange example, could I be required to shut down my business on Sunday, but someone who doesn't identify their business as a Christian business be allowed to stay open?

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    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be simpler to *allow* people to discriminate, no matter how vile and hateful you find their behavior, so long as they are not using force against one another or engaging in fraud?

    Yes, many forms of discrimination are unpleasant and cause grief, but is it really the proper business of the government to step in and use force to limit the voluntary associations and contractual arrangements private citizens engage in?

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    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaker View Post
    I'm waiting to see this get flipped on someone's head. If I identify myself as a Christian business, can I legally be held to that? For a strange example, could I be required to shut down my business on Sunday, but someone who doesn't identify their business as a Christian business be allowed to stay open?
    I can't think of any example where business hours are mandated. If the CVS near me wanted to be open only from 1-1:30pm isn't that legal? (They might not be in business very long, however). I think the Catholic birth control insurance ban is a great example of a religious business trying to dictate values on their non-Catholic employees. I still feel they have a right to do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    Wouldn't it be simpler to *allow* people to discriminate, no matter how vile and hateful you find their behavior, so long as they are not using force against one another or engaging in fraud?

    Yes, many forms of discrimination are unpleasant and cause grief, but is it really the proper business of the government to step in and use force to limit the voluntary associations and contractual arrangements private citizens engage in?
    It wouldn't be simpler for the people being discriminated against. Working, shopping, banking, trying to find a place to live. Wondering if the people coming to pull you from your wrecked car are going to approve of your color, religion, sexual orientation, etc., as well as the hospital they take you to.

    Not very simple for the folks who find it distasteful as well. There is an attraction to libertarianism (allow people to do anything so long as they are not using force against one another or engaging in fraud), but it has it's own ugly edge to it as well. I think it may be worse.

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    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyA View Post
    I thought this was interesting in the paper today. How far do we go?

    Abdul: Legislature should forget religious liberty bill
    Abdul-Hakim Shabazz 10:25 p.m. EST January 17, 2015

    "Imagine that my lovely wife and I decide to try a new restaurant for dinner. However, as soon as we walk in, we’re told that we have to leave because we’re black.
    Naturally, I do what any red-blooded American would do and exercise my God-given right to sue.
    So we file a complaint, and after winding its way through the court system, it’s determined that the owner properly denied us service because he was covered under Indiana’s new Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Yes, he was discriminating against us because we’re minorities, but since the owner is a member of the Christian Identity movement, which believes people who look like me are “Satan-spawned mud races,” he is acting within his religious rights to deny the Lovely Mrs. Shabazz and me service.
    Sound crazy? Of course it does. But it’s also plausible if lawmakers aren’t careful in drafting the state’s version of the RFRA.
    State Sen. Scott Schneider has told the media the legislation is necessary because people of faith need the law to protect them from being compelled to engage in commercial practices that compromise their religious beliefs. The classic example of this is the religious baker who feels he or she should not be compelled to make a cake for a same-sex wedding. Usually the baker doesn’t unless he or she is operating in a jurisdiction that has added sexual orientation to its anti-discrimination laws. And in exchange for the business license, that baker has agreed to follow the laws and rules of that municipality.
    There are usually exceptions for religious employers (such as Catholic Charities), but not for employers who are religious. This is why the Christian Identity restaurateur is out of luck when my wife and I order some white fish.
    Supporters of the RFRA say it’s needed to protect religious liberty. But religious freedom is tricky business.
    For example, let’s say you have a devout Catholic who doesn’t want to rent hotel rooms to unmarried or divorced couples. The Muslim shopkeeper who takes Sharia customs to the extreme and says women cannot enter his store without a burka. Or the giant spaghetti monster followers who refuse to serve people who don’t believe in the giant spaghetti monster. You see where this is going.
    Are some of these examples extreme? Well that’s in the eye of the beholder, or if the RFPA goes into effect, the judge or jury, because that’s where a lot of this stuff will end up.
    Under the federal RFPA law, the government can’t do anything that places a “substantial burden” on someone who is exercising religious freedoms. But like most laws, there is an exception; the exception is that the government must show a compelling state interest as to why a rule that tramples religious freedom exists. This is where the judges, juries and lawyers come into play.
    Someone has to make the call as to whether someone exercising religious beliefs is being genuine or simply using it as a pretext for discrimination. If you make 50 cakes a day, is making one more cake for a same-sex wedding really going to put a substantial burden on you?
    I told you this was tricky business.
    At the end of the day, lawmakers should leave this one alone. You never know what kind of Pandora’s box you will open. No offense to the followers of the Greek Pantheon."

    Abdul is an attorney and the editor and publisher of IndyPolitics.Org. He can be reached at abdul@indypolitics.org.
    Absurd laws like this will last only until they get used against Christians. It's not much of a stretch to see a Muslim restaurant owner turning away customers who aren't following his religion's practices. Or a landlord evicting a tenant. I can just imagine the howls of indignation by Christians when some woman and her children get kicked out by their Muslim landlord because she let a man she wasn't married to spend the night.

  9. #9
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaker View Post
    I'm waiting to see this get flipped on someone's head. If I identify myself as a Christian business, can I legally be held to that? For a strange example, could I be required to shut down my business on Sunday, but someone who doesn't identify their business as a Christian business be allowed to stay open?
    I doubt that would happen, but if I were suing a business for discrimination and they claimed to be a "Christian business" or whatever religion, yet were operating on that religion's sabbath day it would be logical for me to use that as part of my case showing that they were not following the basics of their claimed religion.

  10. #10
    Senior Member CathyA's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what to think. I think we've gone too far in making rules for certain things. ....Like the issue with the bakery that wouldn't make a cake for a gay couple. I mean why didn't they just go somewhere else? Why would you want to even give that bakery your business, if they thought your lifestyle was a "sin"?

    But then..........with Hobby Lobby not wanting to insure their employees to cover abortion, because they think that is wrong........I can understand that. DH thinks they should have cared more about taking care of their employees, but if you believe abortion is wrong, it would feel very wrong to offer coverage for that.

    I guess this is the problem/dilemma with freedom for all. Not everyone's idea of freedom/rights is the same as someone else's.

    I think some have lost their sense of balance. If someone insults them or denies something they want, they make a federal case out of it. Yes, there are instances of discrimination that just aren't right and something should be done about it.........but there are also cases where you should just go somewhere else with your business. Pretty soon everything will have a law and it will be sort of hard to even make a move without doing something unlawful.

    And I think finding a decent balance is getting harder and harder when there are so many people with so many differing feelings about how things should be. And everyone thinks they should get everything exactly the way they want it.

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