Only because there is not freedom for all. The baker is not free to choose which customers they serve. The religious are not free to live their values in their public endeavors.Originally Posted by CathyA
It seems kind of strange to see a nation founded upon the idea of religious and personal liberty come to this, preventing the citizens from engaging in discrimination by denying them their liberties.
I think the perceived cure is much worse than the symptoms.
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
Everybody compromises their values to make a living, it's just a question of what lines one draws (and I do). Of course these people's values are silly and laughable, but I guess they are their values.
Trees don't grow on money
But how can there be freedom for all, if everyone, no matter what their wants/beliefs are, can't have what they want? The baker isn't free, nor is his customer...... The religious aren't free to live out their values, nor are their workers who believe differently. Who's right? Who's wrong? I know what you're saying Alan, but what about the freedoms of the people who just want a cake for their wedding, or the people who just want a job at Hobby Lobby, etc. Everybody in this country thinks they should get exactly what they want all the time, 'cause that's what being an American is all about, right? I'm having a hard time saying what I'm thinking.
I think we've taken being fair too far in this country. People in this country have been raised to think that they deserve everything all the time, and when this doesn't happen, they scream discrimination.
I think this has merit with some things, but not others. So how do we sort out what we should have laws against and what we shouldn't?
I hope I'm making sense.
Freedom doesn't mean you can have anything you want.
It just means other people can't make you do something against your will by force.
In your baker example, the baker isn't free, as he is being forced to offer his labor and services to another against his will. The customer is free though - nobody is forcing him to buy a cake from a particular vendor, or to buy a cake at all.
I think you need to begin by looking at very basic definitions and assumptions.
"Freedom"
Yup. Distasteful, offensive, vile. That's how freedom sometimes works.
Agreed. The hard choice is deciding whether to go down that road again. "Sometimes" can easily turn into "the way things are".
Not if you believe in freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of expression and freedom of association. Is it more offensive to allow it or to deny it?
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
I don't know.......seems like both ways can lead to lots of strife/anger.
So Alan and Bae, are you saying that everyone should just do want they want........like refuse certain "types" into their business, etc.?
Yes, I think if a business doesn't want my patronage it's their loss, another business will. To me, the bigger issue is a society where the force of law is used to punish those who exercise their freedom of speech, expression and association.
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
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