Pizza Place Closes On Account Of Harrassment....

[The Storyteller]

Never mind. I wrote something, but it didn't make any sense. Even to me.

[The Storyteller]

So, if we say that we have the right to free expression of conscience, can we also say that the very same free expression is a crime? It appears that's where we're heading.

I haven't been following this thing that closely. How was free expression of conscience criminalized in this case? Was someone arrested or fined for saying something?

[Hopefully, that makes more sense than what I wrote before.]

[Alan]

I haven't been following this thing that closely. How was free expression of conscience criminalized in this case? Was someone arrested or fined for saying something?

This particular case never actually happened, the closing of the pizza store was the result of a hypothetical. However, in a similar case, I believe in Colorado, a bakery was fined up to $150,000 for declining to cater a same sex wedding celebration.

[bae]

In Washington State recently, the full power of the State descended upon some florist who refused to sell wedding flowers:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0ln0b520150219

I wonder what the standard of proof will be for *why* someone refused to provide a service? Will we have to send in secret-shoppers to investigate charges of discrimination, as is done for Fair Housing?

I operate a business here that offers its site up for 3-4 weddings a year. Those weddings are the difference for us each year between profitability, and just-getting-by. We don't have the resources to handle more than the 3-4 weddings, so we are *very very picky* which weddings we will book. They have to be just the right size. They have to be wedding parties we judge are likely to use some of our other services and make us some $$$. They have to be weddings that won't require excessive hand-holding and staff time. They have to be wedding parties that don't seem likely to trash the sensitive site, or interfere with the other operations on-site. As a result, we end up turning down a fair number of interested people. Hopefully nobody will sue us for that, I've already made up a scoreing/scheduling worksheet so we can have a paper trail of why we said no.

[The Storyteller]

This particular case never actually happened, the closing of the pizza store was the result of a hypothetical. However, in a similar case, I believe in Colorado, a bakery was fined up to $150,000 for declining to cater a same sex wedding celebration.

Ah. That isn't expression. That's an action. Speech (expression) is protected. Action is not unless it is defined as speech or is otherwise determined to be a "right". Refusing service is not speech.

[Alan]

Ah. That isn't expression. That's an action. Speech (expression) is protected. Action is not unless it is defined as speech or is otherwise determined to be a "right". Refusing service is not speech.

Actually, it's a lack of action, but that aside if a person can't decline a service that goes against their conscience, have we lost the right to free expression?

[iris lilies]

In Washington State recently, the full power of the State descended upon some florist who refused to sell wedding flowers:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0ln0b520150219

I wonder what the standard of proof will be for *why* someone refused to provide a service? Will we have to send in secret-shoppers to investigate charges of discrimination, as is done for Fair Housing?

I operate a business here that offers its site up for 3-4 weddings a year. Those weddings are the difference for us each year between profitability, and just-getting-by. We don't have the resources to handle more than the 3-4 weddings, so we are *very very picky* which weddings we will book. They have to be just the right size. They have to be wedding parties we judge are likely to use some of our other services and make us some $$$. They have to be weddings that won't require excessive hand-holding and staff time. They have to be wedding parties that don't seem likely to trash the sensitive site, or interfere with the other operations on-site. As a result, we end up turning down a fair number of interested people. Hopefully nobody will sue us for that, I've already made up a scoreing/scheduling worksheet so we can have a paper trail of why we said no.

Our friends with a lovey B & B Inn started doing weddings but the male owner joked "we can't do gay weddings--we aren't that high end." He is kidding, of course.

All of the gay weddings that have been taking place among our friends this year have been nice, sensible, low key affairs. Men do not make good bridezillas.

[Packy]

You know, I been holding back on one thing, here. It has to do with MooVvveees, or one mooovveee in particular that is relevant to this. Even though moooovvvveeees are not "real", occasionally art does imitate life. Anyway, the moooovvveee that I have in mind not only is relevant to Contrarian Pizza Parlor Proprietors, but also to Civvvill Rights and Fergusson. You kids went on and on about Fergusson, basically saying nothing, for far longer than you should've. And now--you're wearing this topic out, despite my best efforts to um, help alleviate that situation. Anyway, before you post another word here, I want you kids to get ahold of the 1989 Spike Lee Moooovvveee called "Do The Right Thing", and view it several times. Besides the subject matter, it features a cast of actors who were retty early on in their careers--most of them are much better known veteran character actors. It will do you more good than continuing to discuss this on and on. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.

[The Storyteller]

Actually, it's a lack of action, but that aside if a person can't decline a service that goes against their conscience, have we lost the right to free expression?

No, because once again, it is not expression.

[peggy]

Well to put it honestly, it's not really an action that goes against their conscience. Making pizzas is what they do. That is their line of business. If making pizzas was against their conscience then perhaps they should get out of the pizza making business.
Also, I don't believe other folks eating their pizza is against their conscience. Again, not the right business model if you are aghast at people eating your pizza.
So, to carry it several steps away from the service they actually provide, i.e. making and selling pizza for consumption, we find their actual objection is to what the party goers MIGHT do long after they have eaten the pizza and left the party. Whew! It's amazing anyone can ever stay in business doing or selling anything at all with those restrictions!

And yes, your 'expression of conscience' can be criminalized if your 'expression' is an action against the law. Example: I may feel very very strongly about the way some young person dresses, and I may make comments loudly so they, and everyone else can hear, but I can't walk up to them and slap them or force them to go change. Just as the Muslim business owner thinks, and says, all women should cover their heads, he cannot deny service to women who aren't wearing head scarves. That would be discrimination. See how that works.

Fortunately, in this country, we don't let everyone act as their 'conscience' would dictate. That's called living in a civilized society. And as The Storyteller pointed out, rights are what we say they are. You have the 'right' to beat your wife in many countries. A 'right', I might add, given you by that wonderful guide, the Bible. Here you do not. We don't follow the 'rights' given by the bible, including the right to discriminate.