I'm confused now....isn't the basis of the story that each of the ten drinks one beer per outing? How is the tenth man drinking "50 times more beer"?
I'm confused now....isn't the basis of the story that each of the ten drinks one beer per outing? How is the tenth man drinking "50 times more beer"?
Originally Posted by alan
First things first peggy, I didn't call you a communist, but my comment was snarky and for that I do apologize. Its just that I don't have to be Nostradamus to know that trying to make things more 'equal' was going to be part of the reply to the story. It isn't enough that the first four men in the story don't contribute at all, but still have the benefits. That will never be enough for some folks as long as there is someone who has more.* I am curious exactly what part of that Marx quote is in opposition to how you, individually and in the broader sense, feel about how we should be doing things? That question is not snarky, it is sincere. From my perspective it actually seems to be a pretty good fit to what you are saying, but I obviously have my own bias. Can you shed a little light on the difference(s) for me?
* I totally support efforts to raise the bar in pretty much every category for every citizen. I wish every kid in this country could go to a top notch school and that anyone who was sick could get tier one health care. What I can't support is a Robin Hood approach to providing those benefits.
Last edited by Gregg; 4-20-11 at 9:25am.
Gregg, you are under the assumption I want freeloaders in the society. That I love the idea of people just sitting back and letting their families go hungry or without shelter. Nothing could be further from the truth. It really angers me when i see young, healthy 'bums' just standing around doing nothing, or worse impregnating really ignorant young girls who think it would be sooo cool to have a baby.
But, as a compassionate, thinking adult, I know there will always be a certain percentage of our society that, for whatever reason, cannot, or will not, take care of themselves or their families. They simply won't, no matter what the economy is doing. They won't. Does it anger me? Of course it does. But that won't change the REALITY of the situation. Maybe it's a part of growing up, I don't know. But I DO KNOW, no matter what I do, no matter what you do, and no matter what the republicans do, it won't change. It just won't. This is not something that can be changed by force of will. It is just a reality of life, every life in every country throughout history. My question to you is, why is it that liberals understand this and conservatives don't? And why is it that conservatives don't understand that a rising tide carries all boats? Liberals don't demand good educational opportunities and good health care for all simply because we like spending our money on other people. Again you seem to miss the point that we ALL pay taxes. Taxes are not just for conservatives you know, or the wealthy, or just you. We all pay them, and we all grumble about paying them. That's also human nature.
We demand these things because this is our country, and these are our neighbors, and we are completely unwilling to live in a country where it's every man for himself, and if you are poor, tough. You can beg for food by the street. We are also hoping that some of that percentage, hopefully the young who are born into this miserable reality, will see a better way and escape this merry-go-round and become productive citizens, improving us all.
But they will never escape with crushing health care costs, or zero educational opportunities, and will only be joined by those who slip down due to these and other reasons.
I never said your patrons should be equal. Obviously they aren't. And they never will be. Forget the first four, they are an example of above. Lets just concentrate on the rest. Your story is a metaphor for society (for those who don't quite understand this story) of poor, middle class and wealthy. Otherwise it is a pointless story. First of all, lets dispel this myth that the first four are paying no taxes. Every thing they buy, even food in many states, every gallon of gas, every phone and utility bill, and on their home, if they own one, they pay taxes. And the percentage of their wages (which they pay taxes on) they pay in taxes is greater, much much greater that the middle class or certainly the wealthy. The tax on that gallon of gas is the same whether you have $1 or $1,000,000. But 10 cents from $1 will certainly hurt more than 10 cents from a million dollars, won't it. Now, the tenth guy is drinking 100 times more than the middle ones, but he isn't paying 100 times more bar bill. So, yea, maybe I am saying everyone should pay according to their ability. It's the price of admission. It's the price we all pay to keep the first four from literally sleeping on our doorstep and hitting us up for alms every time we step out the door. It's the price we pay to live in the most desirable country in the world. And we, us, (remember, we are the government and the government is us) collectively decided this is the kind of country we wanted. Our country has evolved over the years, and that has been only through our efforts to make this what it is.
We can't go back to the 1700's, no matter how much the libertarians think it would be fun to rely only on their wits and their guns, they don't really want that kind of country. It's a childish fantasy of 'Frontier House' or something, I don't know. There are examples of that kind of country out there, every man for himself, and it isn't pretty. These people don't really want that. Do you want that? I'm pretty certain the folks at those tea party rallies, with their SS cards and their medicare cards tucked firmly in their back pockets don't want that.
Now to the matter at hand. The deficit. It won't just go away. We can't cut spending enough to make it go away, unless of course our complete way of life goes away too. We have to also raise taxes. And with a combination of these two things, maybe, just maybe we can do something. We need to raise everyone's taxes. It's time to be adults. We need to fix this. We can, but everyone has to pull their weight. And if the stronger ones need to pull a little harder, well so be it. They are stronger, they can take it, and WE ALL benefit from the effort.
I'm sure this is way more than you wanted, sorry. I just don't understand the disconnect between what we have/how we got here, and what the republicans are trying to destroy. It speaks of a complete and total lack of history, or adult thinking, or whatever. I just don't get it.
Well, thank you bae for explaining the republican/libertarian mindset that seems stuck in reverse, but we kind of knew this already. But I'm sure you spent quite a bit of effort designing this little chart, so thanks for you computer graphic.
This story is a metaphor for society with the poor, the middle class and the wealthy.
I think it is worth mentioning that the story is only meant to represent how the Federal Income Tax is collected, not every aspect of society. Other than that, our discussion here is also kind of a metaphor for society. It seems like we are talking at each other or around each other both hell bent on making a point, but we're not really talking TO one another. A couple hours with a cold lemonade out on the front porch would get us further along than months worth of banter here, I'm sure of that. To bad Congress can't/won't take that approach.
Over the years I've been kind of on-again, off-again regarding a flat tax of some kind. The part of your post quoted above made me start thinking about it again. If a dime comes out of every dollar earned without limit (or whatever percentage works) then it becomes difficult to argue that it isn't fair overall. The high wage earners would pay more and conversely the lower your earnings the lower your tax bill would be. In a way it does create a scenario of "each according to his ability". In most cases in our society the higher earners are also higher level consumers so they already pay more in sales tax, real estate tax, etc. so we have part of the puzzle solved. On the extreme low end I would never argue that someone below the poverty line or someone severely disadvantaged in some other way doesn't deserve a break. They do and we should give them one. Draw a line in the sand. Once you make more than $XXX we start taking the flat tax out and take it out of EVERY dollar anyone makes above that level. That isn't perfect, but it does address a huge number of problems in a very fair manner.
As far as the partisan angle, the one difference between your garden variety libs & cons is a matter of point of view. IMO, its often a glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty analogy. If a social program of some kind were passed, aimed at helping a group of 1000 little old ladies, and it helped 900 of them most of the libs I know would bemoan how tragic it was that 100 slipped through the cracks and want to re-do the whole thing to make sure that didn't happen again. It is a very humane and compassionate view of the world. The conservatives, like me, would be fist bumping each other thrilled that we were able to help out 900 {voters}. It is, I believe, a very common sense oriented view of the same world. It's not that we don't want to help the last 100 or are satisfied even though someone is left behind, it is just a belief that there are no perfect scores. That metaphorical last 10% will always exist no matter what we do so lets help the majority and try to figure out another kind of safety net for the rest. What you see as a lack of compassion I see as pragmatism. Is there middle ground?
There is gregg, and I think you have it here. I really don't think you want to starve old people and kick puppies. Most of the time when i say 'you' I really mean the collective you. I'm sorry if that was misunderstood. You, personally seem like a decent person who is just as confounded as the rest of us.
You know there was a time when the politicians not only talked over a glass of lemonade, they actually lived together in boarding homes and such. And even though they still argued, they knew each other and somehow hammered it all out. This new climate of demonizing the other side, making it personal, is very troubling. It's gotten to where these folks aren't just political opposites, they are actual enemies, and the voters will actually punish any one who even talks to the other side with civility. This cannot be good for the republic. I fear we are all being duped into this polarity just for some political game. But I also fear this won't change, but get worse unless we the people start punishing the politicians who WON'T talk to the other side, or be willing to negotiate.
I have also been thinking about the flat tax. I really don't know enough about it to give an opinion now, but I will look at that link that Loose gave somewhere back in this thread. On it's face though, it seems worthy of some study. We really do need to simplify the tax code. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening as this is the true power of our esteemed men and women in congress and i"m pretty certain they won't let go of this power easily, which means never.
I think a good start is term limits for everyone. This is something I think we can't just leave up to the states as this is a collective good that can only benefit the whole country.
And we really need to get out from under this deficit. Cut spending, defense and SS included, and raise taxes. It's gonna hurt but we gotta do it.
I do believe we actually agree on more than we disagree. I know everyone here loves this country and if we only remember that each of us just wants our country to be the best it can be, well then we can work it out.
Enough of this "can't we all get along" stuff coming from the left and right. I am angry and I have pretty much had enough of this so-called center/right America. It is not reality.
Over the last 10 years, take a look at wages for working class, redistribution of wealth, torture accepted in our society, unions are evil, tax cuts for the rich, anti-environmentalism, de-regulation of almost all industry, out-of-control military machine, Guantanamo, war-mongering, gay-bashing, anti-choice and on and on......
Lets face it Conservatism really only has two values, Greed and selfishness. Too bad we had to financially and politically wreck our nation to learn that.
Conservatives talk of the Right to Life and the sanctity of life but maintain that a privatized health care system that rations care by ability to pay is what America needs. The richest nation on earth and we have the highest poverty rate and the lowest life expectancy of any advanced nation. Our health care system ranks 37th behind a host of other nations who have single payer health care systems.
God Bless America and ignore all of it's actions?
Civility is meant to be a means, not an end. I am very afraid that the Democratic leadership sees it the other way around. When you allow civility to be the ends, you become a doormat. You give up everything you want in order to say, "See how civil I am!’”
Who in their right mind wants to be civil when someone says little children need go hungry, sick, and naked because we can’t afford to feed, clothe, or heal them? We can, however, afford tax breaks for the rich. Who wants to be civil when social security and unions are under attack?
Franklin Roosevelt took joy in being the enemy of big business. He was not civil about it and why do I have to civil about destroying the air I breathe and the water I drink? What virtue is there to being civil about that?
I want a bucker and a snorter. I want someone two shades meaner than the devil himself. I want a skillet chunker. I want a hurricane with two eyes and junk yard dog. I want someone to fight for me. The American people will tell pollsters that they want civil because that sounds adult and nice. But, that’s not what they really want. They want someone who can go into a smoke filled backroom and come out with more than smoke in his eyes.
Peace
Last edited by Zigzagman; 4-20-11 at 5:44pm.
Ziggy you really should give Juanita Jean credit for her words.
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
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