Thinking on what?Originally Posted by pinkytoe
Thinking on what?
"60-I had no clue I was elderly now!!"
Yeah--I'm doddering toward oblivion, myself.
If 35 is the start of middle age then I guess it makes sense. But I don't think 60 is usually falling apart or senile, in fact I think it's usually NOT. But you can get AARP discounts! Though I suppose it could be senility, what the hoarding parents probably have here is a certain psychology, somewhat independent of age.
My parents were hoarders (well are - only one parent is still living). They didn't collect really or buy all that much, they just never organized or got rid of stuff. I'm beginning to think organization might be way underrated, if you don't actually have a lot of stuff, are unlikely to become an extreme minimalist, and everything always tends to be a mess. But that doesn't really describe most of the hoarder situations, like my parents as well, who never get rid of stuff.
Trees don't grow on money
Adult Protective Services do not tend to have the legal teeth to change a situation. I've spent 18 yrs as some form of home health nurse and I saw things much worse and dangerous then you see on those shows. The social worker calls AP, they make an assessment, it has to be bad beyond belief before they even take a case, usually they look around and state the person is competent to make these choices. I had a 101 yo Chinese woman dying, living with her "caretakers", two schizophrenic adult children not taking meds. She spoke no English, children a bit. She had scabies and a bed bug infestation, rats in her room and other assorted bugs. this was the clean room of the house, piles of stuff taller than me to wiggle around to get to her. It was November, she was usually naked or had one t-shirt (that said something like Spring Break 1992!) and had no bottoms, incontinent, no one would use free adult diapers. The kids had to take all of the soft things in the room to be cleaned in commercial washers and dryers and the bug people came (we paid for this). The kids came home with all the bedding soaking wet, despite repeated instruction it had to be dried at high heat. We ended up buying her bedding and I gave her a huge bag of my old clothes. They refused to use the scabies meds. They claimed to be feeding her, she maybe weighed 70 lbs. They let me see kitchen, i opened fridge, food somehow so old it rotted even in there and liquified, dripped out when you opened to door. no other food noted. I cannot talk about the roaches. We donated Ensure, I drew a line on the can each time I went because one can was lasting over 4 days despite having plenty more cans and when I'd open a new one, she was so hungry she drank the whole thing. So she was basically being starved, usually found naked in Nov on bed with no blankets that we had bought. The son, was wearing the clothes of mine I dropped off. She was not treated for scabies. The kitchen and BR pipes were not hooked to anything, if water was run, it ended up in a bucket. Toilet non-functioning, I will spare you where everyone's waste went but clue: not outside. And furnace broken, no heat in Nov in NY. No way for fire dept or other emergency help to get to her at all quickly. Advanced cancer, a Chinese church had volunteer interpreters, she always complained of severe pain, being cold and hungry. Adult children obviously too ill to do anything about this.
Social worker and I thought we finally had a slam dunk Adult Protective case, neglect of elder, condemnable living situation, etc. Without an interpreter, the patient was deemed competent to make her own choice to live there, house not condemnable, they did not take her case. Un-effin'-believeable, right? The only thing missing was physical assault and sexual abuse.
We paid to have furnace fixed. Finally, one day the interpreter told me of patient's suffering, "time for hospital" was translated and she nodded her head 'yes'. I had 911 there so fast, two schizophrenic adult children could not handle this, demanded she not go, I held up 3 day can of ensure with bugs in it, she was naked, in pain, lying in days worth of shit and so sorry, AP said she's competent, she wants to go, back away, she is going. I felt horrible doing that to the children, they could not grasp any sort of reality but the patient comes first. She was on Hospice but not a DNR, so full code status. She was dying shortly after going to hospital, she translated clearly she wanted to be allowed to die peacefully and pain free, no CPR. For whatever reason, the hospital would only listen to the mentally ill son, not the patient. Very close to dying, hospital asked for me and her home social worker to give it one last try with the son. He was sobbing, "do not let my mommy die, please. Who will take care of me and my sister?" Good question, pal. We basically strong armed him into a DNR status and she died peacefully the next day. As for the children, the city's mobile mental health crisis team had been dissolved. So we bounced them back to AP, fairly certain nothing would change. And there were no more resources to help them as they refused to seek a doctor's care. One of the worst cases ever, and I often think how we failed those children.
my point after all that is to check first to see what Adult Protective laws are in your state, talk to the dept that condemns housing but even if it's as bad or worse than above, be prepared for them to be deemed competent, choosing to live their way and nothing may happen. I've seen this a lot, children ask us to call AP, get the house condemned and maybe once or twice in my 18 yrs in 2 different cities, I've seen action taken. But those cases had minor children involved. Once you play the AP card, how will you and your sister feel if nothing changes but now your folks are furious at you guys for trying to take action? The fall out I've seen was pretty divisive.
you are in a very difficult situation. Maybe you can get them a case worker from social services whom they come to trust and chip away at this as a team? I just wanted you to know, that at least in NY, a state with pretty good social programs, even we have little to help people like your parents. Best of luck.
Old age is where you define it for yourself. I have never accepted someone else's definition as some people are old at 30 years and some friends are going strong in their 90's.
Bae's point is well taken with the legalities of dealing first with the role of authorities of any kind. As far as the OP's family members, leave them to their own issues until there are health problems and needed decisions will be made then. As others have noted, as long as they are of sound mind, comparatively speaking anyway, little can be accomplished and you might well be forcing them to become even more resistant by infringing on their independence.
they did not take her case. Un-effin'-believeable, right?
Freshstart, I believe it. It's been my experience with AP, too.
And thank you for the work you do. Few of us can imagine the situations you find yourself in, much less enter into them ourselves.
I regularly picture myself in a small house - with a bit of space for a garden. I hesitate to think about an apartment because I can't imagine not having my dog with me. Because I know he will live to be 30 in people years! When I can't sleep I imagine the furniture I will take with me and what will be sold/donated/given away.
thanks, I loved it but got sick and can't work. It feels so weird to believe I'm really not doing this anymore. It's been pretty much since Sept, but I still plan my next work day schedule in my head, lol
Ultralightangler,
You can't force your parents to get better. Any action you take that I not desired by your parents is akin to depriving an alcoholic of alcohol. You can drag him out of the bar, you can pour out the liquor, you can take the car keys, you can drop him in the middle of dry county, but unless he wants to quit drinking, the first thing he is going to do when he gets loose from you is find a way to drink.
If you remove your parents from their home and put them in a nice clean, sparse, comfortably furnished apartment with a few belongings, your mother will immediately begin to hoard the new place. Probably much more intensively than she was Hoarding the old place. And she will hate you. She will not trust you at all and she will lie to you. You have to know this from reading, but I'm not sure you really understand.
So if you truly believe your parent's lives are in danger, and it is more important to you that they live longer than that they live as they wish , then yes, start calling people. The fire department may be your best bet. But don't expect to have a relationship with them afterwards or to solve their problems.
Your best option may be finding an agency or organization that will require them to make SOME improvements in order to stay put, reporting them, and then letting your sister be the "good guy" who helps them. They will still hate you, but she may get them to make some progress in their thoughts and behavior. Or she may not.
I'm sorry. Mental illness is really awful.
I think I would try to get them to recognize any problem/area for change. Start by listening. Hey mom, why are you saving this box? Uh huh. Do you know you have a whole bunch of other boxes like this over here? Ok. So, do you need this one too? Ok. Then make a suggestion: Can we put them all together? I'd really like to wipe off this part of the counter. Would it be ok if we moved the box so I could do that? No? Do you think it would be good if the counter was a little cleaner? Just keep backing up until you find a point of agreement and then try to build from it slowly. Because the point is to get her used to the idea of opening up some space to clean. If it's as bad as you make it sound, she may not neccessarily be doing any actual cleaning yet. Just getting used to the idea may have to be the first step.
I don't know why I didn't mention this sooner, compulsive hoarders share some of the same traits as those with OCD. For years, paxil has been prescribed for both conditions. And the patients I had, that the doctor would prescribe that, did get a bit better. It wasn't a good population to to use for an example, since these are dying people. But we get people in the early stages of illness and sometimes the frustrated family is able to get them to try paxil, after a few weeks, they can usually start purging together, at least clean up hazardous areas.
thank you for writing about your experience, it's making me realize I need to address mine.
my mom has mild OCD and I hate to say this word about her, but she is also a hoarder. Her doctor has tried to get her to go see someone and give her medication. My mom ignored this advice for years, she thinks if she is "officially" diagnosed as a hoarder, then we are going to start dumping her stuff. Despite no one doing that because we know the response. Now it's kind of late for therapy, but she can still be medicated. Both of these traits affect her daily living and if a mild, generic SSRI can at least make her feel better emotionally, then why not? She takes meds 4 times a day, despite using a pill box (open door, take out pills, done), she has this nonsensical system that makes pill taking an hour long process. Pointless, using this amount of time when she has so little left, pointless. Her sister and her friends have been coming in and starting the process of de-hoarding her room. She finally has the most beautiful room, something she never though she would have, it's where she wants to die but the papers and crap really bother her. Take the paxil, trust that the pill box is correctly poured, and we will go through your room, item by item until it is once again a peaceful place to die in. Imagine those two things helped by a fairly benign pill, hours and hours of time no longer wasted and feeling peaceful where you are.
we share a primary, HIPAA went out the window years ago, I see her this week and trying again for meds. Thanks again Ultralite! And I hope maybe something like this could help your family
http://www.compulsive-hoarding.org/T...t-options.html
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