Prayapolooza in Houston

[Alan]

That's a straw man Alan. You know perfectly well no one is advocating taking any one's religion away.

So you don't want to take religion out of the public square? You don't want religion to be a factor in the way people vote or the way that elected officials govern?

[peggy]

Yes, it should be taken from the political arena. I said no one is trying to take any PERSONS RELIGION AWAY. But then, if your religion IS politics..is that what you are saying? That politics is religion and religion is politics? That's getting seriously into Taliban area.

No, religion should definitely NOT be a factor in the way government runs! It should not be a factor in how people vote, although you can't dictate personal actions/prejudice. We CAN dictate to our elected leaders. No religion as factor/cause/reason for any laws. Of course, again, we are NOT talking values. Values like don't steal, don't cheat on your spouse, don't spread vicious rumors, don't kill, etc... are shared by ALL religious and non religious people. Those are values, and despite their belief to the contrary, the republicans have not cornered the market on or invented them. I do expect my leaders to hold and share my values, which I believe the majority of them do. On both sides of the isle.
Religion, on the other hand is, women will cover their heads, everyone will fast on Fridays, little boys will be circumcised, etc...
Ideology falls somewhere else, and this includes fiscal policy.

It just makes me see red when I see how the republicans have, as political strategy, blended values with ideology in that, a vote FOR them is a vote for REAL values, as opposed to voting for liberals, which by implication have no values. Even the so called (what a joke!) liberally biased media calls it the 'values vote' when referring to republicans. What a crock! And what a brilliantly political move for the republicans. And we just let it happen!
A community organizer is a laughable fool? If parents can't feed their little kids then, well, tough? Everyone doesn't really deserve equal education opportunities? Everyone doesn't deserve equal basic health care? These are a reflection of your values? Really? Maybe we don't share the same values. Or maybe you've just let the political strategist convince you that these ideologically driven notions are somehow part and parcel with values.

I have voted republican in the past, but not for a long long time, since they reformed themselves as the 'value vote', then tried to shoehorn their nasty ideology into my values.
I know the difference between values and ideology. I may not agree with the democrats all the time, but the values they try to honor, are the ones I value the most.

[creaker]

So you don't want to take religion out of the public square? You don't want religion to be a factor in the way people vote or the way that elected officials govern?

I know there's been a great deal of consternation in this country over these questions in respect to how people in the Middle East may govern themselves, how Islam could shape democracy there.

[flowerseverywhere]

I have never been a fan of Rick Perry, and while I know that he is doing this for political motives, the condescension (sp?) with which a large gathering of Christians to pray is viewed and the rhetoric surrounding it are , I think, mean-spirited. I also think a call to prayer for our nation, even by this guy, could be a good thing. Some of what I have read here directed toward followers of Jesus could even be considered "hate-speech". Were words with similar tone directed towarded other groups of the population there would be loud screaming and gnashing of teeth coming from the left.

If you could quote specific examples of what you considered to be hate speech it would be helpful for someone like me to learn and avoid being offensive.

[Alan]

Yes, it should be taken from the political arena. I said no one is trying to take any PERSONS RELIGION AWAY. But then, if your religion IS politics..is that what you are saying? That politics is religion and religion is politics? That's getting seriously into Taliban area.

No, religion should definitely NOT be a factor in the way government runs! It should not be a factor in how people vote, although you can't dictate personal actions/prejudice. We CAN dictate to our elected leaders. No religion as factor/cause/reason for any laws. Of course, again, we are NOT talking values. Values like don't steal, don't cheat on your spouse, don't spread vicious rumors, don't kill, etc... are shared by ALL religious and non religious people. Those are values, and despite their belief to the contrary, the republicans have not cornered the market on or invented them. I do expect my leaders to hold and share my values, which I believe the majority of them do. On both sides of the isle.
Religion, on the other hand is, women will cover their heads, everyone will fast on Fridays, little boys will be circumcised, etc...
Ideology falls somewhere else, and this includes fiscal policy.

It just makes me see red when I see how the republicans have, as political strategy, blended values with ideology in that, a vote FOR them is a vote for REAL values, as opposed to voting for liberals, which by implication have no values. Even the so called (what a joke!) liberally biased media calls it the 'values vote' when referring to republicans. What a crock! And what a brilliantly political move for the republicans. And we just let it happen!
A community organizer is a laughable fool? If parents can't feed their little kids then, well, tough? Everyone doesn't really deserve equal education opportunities? Everyone doesn't deserve equal basic health care? These are a reflection of your values? Really? Maybe we don't share the same values. Or maybe you've just let the political strategist convince you that these ideologically driven notions are somehow part and parcel with values.

I have voted republican in the past, but not for a long long time, since they reformed themselves as the 'value vote', then tried to shoehorn their nasty ideology into my values.
I know the difference between values and ideology. I may not agree with the democrats all the time, but the values they try to honor, are the ones I value the most.

Peggy, you've put a lot of words in my mouth, too many to address individually.

I get it that you don't want any religious influence in the public square. I get it that you don't believe religion should play a part in how this country is run and I get it that you don't believe that people of faith should vote for like minded folks or that politicians should be allowed to use their religious beliefs to help shape their duties.

I also get it that many people mistakenly believe that government institutions and elected office holders are barred by the "Separation of Church & State" argument from allowing their religious beliefs to affect their civic duties and responsibilities.

My question to you is, do you also get it that we have a representative system of government and that all of our citizens have the right to vote their conscience as well as their values? Also, should your values take precedence over others values or are all other values simply "nasty ideology"?

[LDAHL]

Peggy, you've put a lot of words in my mouth, too many to address individually.

I get it that you don't want any religious influence in the public square. I get it that you don't believe religion should play a part in how this country is run and I get it that you don't believe that people of faith should vote for like minded folks or that politicians should be allowed to use their religious beliefs to help shape their duties.

I also get it that many people mistakenly believe that government institutions and elected office holders are barred by the "Separation of Church & State" argument from allowing their religious beliefs to affect their civic duties and responsibilities.

My question to you is, do you also get it that we have a representative system of government and that all of our citizens have the right to vote their conscience as well as their values? Also, should your values take precedence over others values or are all other values simply "nasty ideology"?

I think this is another area in which left and right talk past each other. The right seems to look at the establishment clause as a prohibition on government support of any particular church. The left view it more as a general purpose gag order.

[Zigzagman]

I think this is another area in which left and right talk past each other. The right seems to look at the establishment clause as a prohibition on government support of any particular church. The left view it more as a general purpose gag order.

I think that most progressives (those that think practices ought to be adjusted as society evolves) think that the establishment clause was intended to ensure that all citizens should have freedom of conscience. We all should be able to choose our own religious path or none without interference from the government. The state should not tell people what to believe, how to believe, or how to practice their beliefs. Also government should be prevented from enforcing anyone’s religious rules on the public.

Peace

[peggy]

Peggy, you've put a lot of words in my mouth, too many to address individually.

I get it that you don't want any religious influence in the public square. I get it that you don't believe religion should play a part in how this country is run and I get it that you don't believe that people of faith should vote for like minded folks or that politicians should be allowed to use their religious beliefs to help shape their duties.

I also get it that many people mistakenly believe that government institutions and elected office holders are barred by the "Separation of Church & State" argument from allowing their religious beliefs to affect their civic duties and responsibilities.

My question to you is, do you also get it that we have a representative system of government and that all of our citizens have the right to vote their conscience as well as their values? Also, should your values take precedence over others values or are all other values simply "nasty ideology"?

See Alan, now you're putting words in my mouth. Again, you are conflating values with ideology (thank you republican strategist). I said their IDEOLOGY was nasty. I also said i believe we ALL share the same values. At least I hope we do. When I vote independent, I'm voting a values vote. THE values vote, in my opinion.

No, religion should NOT play a part in how this country is run. I ask you, which religion should we pick to play this part? If there is prayer in school, whose prayer do we say? Whose prayer do we compel all the little children to repeat? Whose religion do we follow in making our laws? Do we make it a law that women dress a certain way? Do we eliminate battlefield medical care because some religions don't believe in blood transfusions? Perhaps we mandate all little boys get circumcised. Let's close bars on Sundays, or better yet, shut down all business on this 'day of rest'. This is what happens when we let religion become a consideration in the governance of a nation.

I'll say it again because you seem to keep skipping over this point, I do expect our leaders to be guided by our shared moral values, which have absolutely nothing to do with religion. Pick a successful society, any society, and you will find they have shared moral values. Even the totally secular ones. I realize this is hard for some to wrap their minds around, but it's the truth. You don't have to have religion to have moral values. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand (prison is full of religious people)

Yes, I do expect everyone to vote their conscience, but voting for an ideology is not voting for values, unless your values are reflected in that particular ideology. So, when you vote to defund medicare while giving yet another tax break to the very wealthy, what value is that connecting? I really want to know. Cause when I vote to maybe pay a little more in taxes to be sure the elderly are taken care of, the value I'm voting for is the one that says we will take care of those who can't take care of themselves. Do I know these people? No. Does that make a difference? No. My values are not driven by, or defined by, or dependant on any political party, or ideology.

My values are what guide me each day in how i live my life and treat people, especially those who are less fortunate than i am.
I am good, I am moral, and I'm actually a pretty nice person.
And I think god is a fairy tale.
I don't want my elected leaders governing by their particular religious belief any more than I want them passing laws regarding the tooth fairy.

[Alan]

I said their IDEOLOGY was nasty.

You'll have to explain that a little further before I can comment.

No, religion should NOT play a part in how this country is run. I ask you, which religion should we pick to play this part? If there is prayer in school, whose prayer do we say? Whose prayer do we compel all the little children to repeat? Whose religion do we follow in making our laws? Do we make it a law that women dress a certain way? Do we eliminate battlefield medical care because some religions don't believe in blood transfusions? Perhaps we mandate all little boys get circumcised.

I think you're confusing the concept of religion with specific religions. I would agree that no specific religion should be sanctioned by the government, although I also believe that no followers of an established religion should be forbidden from having a voice in or champions within a government.
And by the way, if you haven't heard, San Francisco would like to mandate that no boys be circumcised.

I'll say it again because you seem to keep skipping over this point, I do expect our leaders to be guided by our shared moral values, which have absolutely nothing to do with religion. Pick a successful society, any society, and you will find they have shared moral values. Even the totally secular ones. I realize this is hard for some to wrap their minds around, but it's the truth. You don't have to have religion to have moral values.

I'm not skipping over that point, you're just not recognizing it when you see it. Everyone expects their leaders to be guided by shared moral values, even the religious. You may disagree with the source of their moral viewpoints but that doesn't invalidate their right to express them or for an elected official to represent them.
As a totally secular individual, I completely agree that you don't need religion in order to have moral values, but I don't buy the argument that secular morals are superior to the religious ones. It takes a real ideologue to believe that.

My values are what guide me each day in how i live my life and treat people, especially those who are less fortunate than i am.
I am good, I am moral, and I'm actually a pretty nice person.
And I think god is a fairy tale.
I don't want my elected leaders governing by their particular religious belief any more than I want them passing laws regarding the tooth fairy.

I agree with everything preceding the last line and only quibble with it because you're insisting that you have representation which you would deny to others. Again, I'm not enough of an ideologue to insist upon such a thing.

Yes, I do expect everyone to vote their conscience, but voting for an ideology is not voting for values, unless your values are reflected in that particular ideology. So, when you vote to defund medicare while giving yet another tax break to the very wealthy, what value is that connecting?

I love talking ideology, but you can't mix strawman arguments with it and expect to get anywhere.

[Catwoman]

@Flowerseverywhere - the initial tone taken by the OP was disdainful, oozed contempt for and frankly, made fun of Chrisitans uniting to pray. Granted, it was toned down but that's what all this fuss is about (on my part). The very title of the thread "Prayerpalooza" is making fun of prayer. Hate Speech? Maybe not ...but what if the tables were turned and someone posted something ugly about say Islam, example, calling Arabs "Ragheads" or saying "they face the East and beat their heads on the ground" that's offensive, no? I think so. Having a whole thread dedicated to bashing Rick Perry is one thing. Having a thread titled "Prayerpalooza" is not funny.