A Better Way

[JaneV2.0]

My parents honeymooned in Victoria; I like to imagine I was conceived there. I often wish they had fallen in love with the area and stayed.

[LDAHL]

I thought gift economies functioned to maintain social hierarchies by creating obligations for the recipients. Personally, I prefer capitalism, which functions to create new wealth rather than some closed system of reciprocal redistribution.

[catherine]

I thought gift economies functioned to maintain social hierarchies by creating obligations for the recipients.

Not from what I understand. The idea is we all have gifts to give. No one's contribution is valued more highly than the other. You don't have teachers making a pittance and sports stars earning millions. It's true that we have to redefine "wealth" if we are to start to think about the gift economy.

[Alan]

How does manufacturing or supply chains work in a gift economy. Do refrigerators or cars, TV's or mobile phones exist there?

[ApatheticNoMore]

I thought gift economies functioned to maintain social hierarchies by creating obligations for the recipients. Personally, I prefer capitalism, which functions to create new wealth rather than some closed system of reciprocal redistribution.

the question isn't is their hierarchy, I mean I believe ideally not much, but assuming there is, whether there is mutual obligation between those in different positions of the hierarchy. Now it seems we live in a hierarchy where most of the population is considered disposable. Not the first time I suppose but not a good development.

Capitalism especially as practiced in the U.S. is as hierarchical as it comes, so hardly an argument against less capitalist forms of also hierarchy (like village chiefs or whatever)

There isn't actually "new wealth", there is mostly living beyond sustainability (borrowing from the future - hello environmental destruction), and sometimes better uses of of existing resources. Currently we lean heavily on the former, but the latter may exist in some element to, and only the later could be called new wealth in any real sense. There is the distribution of wealth but the rich getting richer isn't actually new wealth either.

[catherine]

the question isn't is their hierarchy, I mean I believe ideally not much, but assuming there is, whether there is mutual obligation between those in different positions of the hierarchy. Now it seems we live in a hierarchy where most of the population is considered disposable. Not the first time I suppose but not a good development.

Capitalism especially as practiced in the U.S. is as hierarchical as it comes, so hardly an argument against less capitalist forms of also hierarchy (like village chiefs or whatever)

There isn't actually "new wealth", there is mostly living beyond sustainability (borrowing from the future - hello environmental destruction), and sometimes better uses of of existing resources. Currently we lean heavily on the former, but the latter may exist in some element to, and only the later could be called new wealth in any real sense. There is the distribution of wealth but the rich getting richer isn't actually new wealth either.

Well said, ANM.

[catherine]

The whole idea of a "gift economy" doesn't sound viable to me as a large-scale economic system.

This, and Alan's comment about refrigerators in the gift economy, is like saying in 1960 how could we ever walk on the moon.

We started with the space program by defining the values that were important to us and then we hired the engineers.

The economic system we have and the values that drive it have bankrupted our natural resources, handcuffed us to soul-sucking jobs, and dismantled our sense of community.

So, let's tinker with that model a bit and see if we can get back some of the things we've lost along the way.

[happystuff]

This, and Alan's comment about refrigerators in the gift economy, is like saying in 1960 how could we ever walk on the moon.

We started with the space program by defining the values that were important to us and then we hired the engineers.

The economic system we have and the values that drive it have bankrupted our natural resources, handcuffed us to soul-sucking jobs, and dismantled our sense of community.

So, let's tinker with that model a bit and see if we can get back some of the things we've lost along the way.

Agree with this and ANM.

In response to your question, Alan, "How does manufacturing or supply chains work in a gift economy. Do refrigerators or cars, TV's or mobile phones exist there? ", I think a good example of the "tinkering" catherine speaks of is exhibited in the CEO example in the OP.

I still don't understand why some people seem to be stuck on the "all or nothing" solutions, instead of taking what is "good" and working towards "better".

[Alan]

I still don't understand why some people seem to be stuck on the "all or nothing" solutions, instead of taking what is "good" and working towards "better".

I don't think anyone has suggested "all or nothing", I'm just trying to understand how a gift economy works at scale. It seems that no one else does either.

[happystuff]

I don't think anyone has suggested "all or nothing", I'm just trying to understand how a gift economy works at scale. It seems that no one else does either.

This is not meant to sound snarky or anything - but I'm thinking that until it does exist - at scale - you won't get a definitive answer.