Ran across ICE in Phoenix (warning, some of you might want to scroll on by)

[Alan]

The crowds and protests speak for how much ICE is valued or wanted!

I think that actually speaks to how easily certain people can be encouraged by politicians to act emotionally rather than rationally, while actively creating the environment necessary to exploit the predictable reactions.

[catherine]

I really don't have a good solution, but it seems like with the many billions allocated to ICE there could be improvements with a similar amount for the homeless. Maybe someone wiser than me would know more. And there couldmprobably be a dialog about whether non-criminal illegal immigrants or people living on the streets is the bigger social or safety issue.

My brother retired from social services after thirty years in a county with the state's mental institution. His story was that sometime around the Reagan era there were cutbacks for those sorts of institutions and a large percentage of the patients were relocated to half-way houses or pushed out on the streets. And that was the start of the homeless issues. That's probably not the whole story, but part of it is that with a lot of homeless people the issue isn't entirely housing, but the need for dependence rehabilitation, transportation, job skills, or professional help with mental illnesses.

My great-grandfather was committed by his family to an institution--Willard Asylum. People who just couldn't cut it in society were sent there--if they were mentally ill, alcoholic (my grandfather), jobless (my grandfather), or even if they had a hard time making it because they spoke a different language. It is hard to think about people being institutionalized. My great grandfather lived there for 25 years until his death at 74 years old. There was a book written about Willard Asylum--The Lives They Left Behind.

Was my great-grandfather better off at Willard Asylum than he would have been homeless in NYC? His grandson, my father, died homeless in NYC. Who fared worse? I would say my father.

[Rogar]

My great aunt tried to commit suicide and also stab my great uncle in the back with a kitchen knife. She was declared incompetent and died in the state hospital years later. I vaguely remember my mother taking me to visit her when I was vary small and the conditions were horrid. What ever can be imagined from the movies, that was it. I have told my cousin and brother that I don't even like to talk about it. It one of those memories that sticks with you.

I'd like to think with modern medicine she could have been helped. Or in modern times would she have been turned out some day on the streets? To return to that sort of institutionalization is unacceptable. The point is that some people need professional help with both addiction and mental health and in what ever respect, we're not doing a very good job of it. When the Llama offers me total enlightenment I might know how to help, but some of it might involve institutions of some sort.

Maybe getting back slightly on topic, I recall a homeland security budget of 160 billion. Some of that was probably good. But the part of flooding cities with well equipped ICE agents might have benefited society more by working on another big societal problem. I think the WSJ said that once the border had been virtually shut down, Trump should have backed off on his aggressive measures.

[catherine]

I think the WSJ said that once the border had been virtually shut down, Trump should have backed off on his aggressive measures.

I agree with that. But that's not the Trump way. He has to turn everything into a show of power.

[iris lilies]

I agree with that. But that's not the Trump way. He has to turn everything into a show of power.

Surely you dont mean law enforcement should NOT deport those here with orders from immigration courts to leave and others here without legal permission. Barak Obama deported 3.1 million people during his 8 years in office which is nearly the same rate of deportation as Trump administration’s 400,000 deported in a year.

Donald had better step it up or he will barely match the Obama record. And Trump is using the same tools, ICE agents and Tom Holman.

Do you really think those who have been ordered to leave should just continue to stay in our country, ignoring lawful orders? Should Dr. Ian Roberts ( my touchstone illegal immigrant!) continue to head up the Des Moines Public school system, continue his lying, feloning, resisting court orders? Joe Biden’s courts ordered Roberts out. But Joe couldn’t make it happen, he was ineffectual.

[catherine]

Surely you dont mean law enforcement should NOT deport those here with orders from immigration courts to leave and others here without legal permission. Barak Obama deported 3.1 million people during his 8 years in office which is nearly the same rate of deportation as Trump administration’s 400,000 deported in a year.

Donald had better step it up or he will barely match the Obama record. And Trump is using the same tools, ICE agents and Tom Holman.

Do you really think those who have been ordered to leave should just continue to stay in our country, ignoring lawful orders? Should Dr. Ian Roberts ( my touchstone illegal immigrant!) continue to head up the Des Moines Public school system, continue his lying, feloning, resisting court orders? Joe Biden’s courts ordered Roberts out. But Joe couldn’t make it happen, he was ineffectual.

Of course I don't believe that criminals should stay. I am against the tactics--the broad sweep of profiling and instilling fear into the families that are here legally--either with green cards or as actual citizens--just because they're brown. The fear that is being generated in cities (Democratics ones) merely to the end of political grandstanding.

Actually, I just spent the last 20+ minutes watching this NYT interview with Ruben Gallego, who, frankly, I never heard of until I read a Nate Silver report on the Democrats who have had great track records on winning elections. If you can watch it without a paywall, watch it. This guy is right up my alley in terms of representing the party I would like the Democrats to return to. He stresses the importance of national security by securing the borders but absolutely feels racial profiling is a bridge too far, and that the Republicans will lose the Latin and Black headway they made in the last election.

Overall, this guy is awesome. First blush, I'd vote for him if he ran for President. I like everything he said about what's gone wrong with the Democratic party.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/20/o...dability.htmlv

[iris lilies]

Of course I don't believe that criminals should stay. I am against the tactics--the broad sweep of profiling and instilling fear into the families that are here legally--either with green cards or as actual citizens--just because they're brown. The fear that is being generated in cities (Democratics ones) merely to the end of political grandstanding.

Actually, I just spent the last 20+ minutes watching this NYT interview with Ruben Gallego, who, frankly, I never heard of until I read a Nate Silver report on the Democrats who have had great track records on winning elections. If you can watch it without a paywall, watch it. This guy is right up my alley in terms of representing the party I would like the Democrats to return to. He stresses the importance of national security by securing the borders but absolutely feels racial profiling is a bridge too far, and that the Republicans will lose the Latin and Black headway they made in the last election.

Overall, this guy is awesome. First blush, I'd vote for him if he ran for President. I like everything he said about what's gone wrong with the Democratic party.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/20/o...dability.htmlv

Ok, I accept your opinion as reasonable.

I’ll reframe it as we should deport everyone who’s here illegally, but be kinder and gentler and doing that.

I am not limiting my wish for deportation to “criminals “only. And the fear and intimidation is useful in getting one 1.6 million people to self deport. I think that’s an unfortunate but useful tactic.

There’s a is a certain amount of show going on with ICE tactics, unnecessary show. We can debate how much actual force is needed to detain those being deported but I’m convinced that some force is needed when lawful orders are not obeyed.

But I agree that Trump is losing the public relations game so he needs to watch it. Just like Israel was losing the PR game the last six months of the conflict in Palestine. The public tide turns.

[catherine]

The public tide turns.

Yes, because generally people are kind and compassionate. When they sniff out wanton cruelty, they'll call it out. That impulse may be compassion, or it may be fear that they will be the next target. If you don't put checks on power, history has shown that anyone can be erased.

[frugal-one]

Unless you happen to object to people living here illegally.

No rational person wants ICE here whether they are legal or not. We don’t need or want masked armed thugs grabbing people off the streets, breaking into homes without warrants or shooting people dead!

[frugal-one]

I think that actually speaks to how easily certain people can be encouraged by politicians to act emotionally rather than rationally, while actively creating the environment necessary to exploit the predictable reactions.

Sounds like when trump called his minions to invade the capital NOT a rebellion against masked, armed thugs… gestapo or secret police, obsconding with or killing citizens on a whim!