Occupy Wall Street PROTESTERS Not Letting Up - Nationwide

[Gregg]

Back in my day, if you couldn't afford college you worked flipping burgers while attending community college at night for 2 years before attending an in-state university while living at home with your parents and still flipping burgerss. Seems a shift in attitude has occured for alot of younger people.

I still think that attitude may come more from the parents than the younger set. IMO its time to admit that a lot of our kids are screwed because we blindly shoved them down a path that sometimes leads to nowhere. DW and I radically disagreed on this point for many, many years. Now that our two oldest kids have graduated college and we see their prospects she is even starting to question the conventional wisdom.

In my day, which was very close to the same day as your day Spartana, I couldn't afford college so I simply didn't go (did get in a few classes before all the bills started arriving). Not to toot my own horn, but between myself and my two brothers who both hold advanced degrees there is little doubt who has been able to accomplish the most. One of them is now terminally unemployed and milking every dime he can from the system while sending out the occasional resume for jobs that he is in no way qualified for. He went to a series of VERY expensive and exclusive schools (you would know the names). The other is in a position that he could have easily landed with a BA, much less a PhD, and lives a nice life primarily thanks to a never ending stream of handouts from his in-laws who want to make sure their grandchildren want for nothing. He went to a series of state colleges. I don't begrudge either of them anything, they've made their choices and live the life they chose, but all the years of education bear no fruit at all. I fear they are not isolated examples.

[Spartana]

I still think that attitude may come more from the parents than the younger set. IMO its time to admit that a lot of our kids are screwed because we blindly shoved them down a path that sometimes leads to nowhere. DW and I radically disagreed on this point for many, many years. Now that our two oldest kids have graduated college and we see their prospects she is even starting to question the conventional wisdom.

In my day, which was very close to the same day as your day Spartana, I couldn't afford college so I simply didn't go (did get in a few classes before all the bills started arriving). Not to toot my own horn, but between myself and my two brothers who both hold advanced degrees there is little doubt who has been able to accomplish the most. One of them is now terminally unemployed and milking every dime he can from the system while sending out the occasional resume for jobs that he is in no way qualified for. He went to a series of VERY expensive and exclusive schools (you would know the names). The other is in a position that he could have easily landed with a BA, much less a PhD, and lives a nice life primarily thanks to a never ending stream of handouts from his in-laws who want to make sure their grandchildren want for nothing. He went to a series of state colleges. I don't begrudge either of them anything, they've made their choices and live the life they chose, but all the years of education bear no fruit at all. I fear they are not isolated examples.

I do feel very sorry for kids today - and the parents who probably "pushed" them to go to college as a guarenteed way to financial and social success. And I don't blane them for having those expectains when so many did come out of school with business or law degrees to be hired immediately into high paying, often high levelm corporate jobs during the boom years of the last decade. I certainly understand the frustration - and anger (displaced IMHO) - they must feel towards the system that they see as letting them down. But there does come a time when people do have to let go of some of the long held expectations they have and, well, try to find a way to muddle thru in this new economy. The skills a person gains getting an education are never wasted even if you can't use them to earn money (much like your brothers) but I think young people need to come to terns with the fact that their idealized life isn't going to mesh with reality. And that maybe they will have to live a simpler more frugal life then their parents (those Beemer driving Yuppies of Yore :-)!) ever did.

[Spartana]

I agree that there is a way to get an education and not get into debt. I wish that I'd taken that path (and not gone to law school at all).

How does a person "give back" an education? I can understand the house, consumer goods, car, etc -- but what? they're going to take the education out of my brain? my experience? Or is it that they just take the degree away (e.g., I can no longer claim that I have the degree?).

That's probably one of the reasons they make it so you can't claim bankruptcy. Although my understanding is that many people don't lose their assets (house, car, business, etc..) in certain types of bankruptcies, they just get the debt discharged but get to keep everything. So don't know why it would make a difference in a bankruptcy court if it was your house or your brain - you get to keep both :-)! Although, in true entrepurneial (sp? - gosh dern state education :-)) spirit, I am thinking about setting up a Zombie Brain bank for the coming apocalypse and zombie hoarde invasion. I get the brains of each person who can't pay their student loans and sell it back to the zombies - thus keeping the rest of us (the new post-apocalyptic 1%) safe from zombie attacks ;-)!

[Alan]

Although, in true entrepurneial (sp? - gosh dern state education :-)) spirit, I am thinking about setting up a Zombie Brain bank for the coming apocalypse and zombie hoarde invasion. I get the brains of each person who can't pay their student loans and sell it back to the zombies - thus keeping the rest of us (the new post-apocalyptic 1%) safe from zombie attacks ;-)!

I think zombies have been getting a bad rap. I just recently met zombie in a penguin suit and completely changed my opinion of the species.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtdEKIsnEkM&feature=player_embedded

[Zoebird]

my idealized life is -- at this point -- simply debt-free and minimalist. i don't even need to own a house, or have a nice car or whatever. Seriously. I am getting my wardrobe down to a high quality 30 pieces. I'm not looking for anything fancy-pantsy.

i want to do work that i enjoy (and i enjoy my work), and i want my debt to be gone. i work extra hard to pay it off (doing things that i'm not really ready to do with my business -- like leading teacher trainings, something i'd like to have waited until next year to do -- and yes, it is hard work to teach 12 hrs straight three days in a row, plus run your business for the prior 5 days and then the next 5 days, plus also parent those five days -- I was lucky that NZ had a three day weekend coming up after that first one!).

The tough part to me is that I didn't fully realize -- when i took out those loans -- how they were adding up, what protections didn't exist, and how the fraud situation is real with those debt. It's amazing what these companies get away with.

I'm concerned, right now, that the company is being hinky. Usually, when I make my payment, the company sends me a letter saying that they have removed X amount from my account (the payment) as a collection on the debt. I've gotten this letter every month for the last 8 or 9 years. But now, I haven't gotten one in 6 months. But, the payment is still taken out.

I called my usual person, who is no longer with the company, and was given a new person. She said she would "look into the situation of my account." and I haven't heard back. I also emailed the company recently to see what was what -- I'm still waiting on a reply.

It's a bit confusing, to be honest. I mean, I am honestly trying to pay them back, saving up to pay one big lump sum (which is what my accountant recommends because paying down on the principle doesn't work with credit companies -- he could explain why better than I could, but he recommended paying the interest each month and then saving-saving-saving to pay it all off in one lump), and I've made payments (autopayments) every month for several years... why now? and for that matter -- what now?

So messy.

[Yossarian]

saving up to pay one big lump sum (which is what my accountant recommends because paying down on the principle doesn't work with credit companies -- he could explain why better than I could, but he recommended paying the interest each month and then saving-saving-saving to pay it all off in one lump)

I'm curious what the reasoning is for this recommendation. There are cash flow reasons why you may not want to prepay, but almost everyone ends up paying more in interest on the loan than what you earn on savings (especially these days) so deferring your payments is usually a net loss for you.

[Zoebird]

because it's with a debt collection agency, and i already tried that.

first, when it was with citibank, i was paying two checks a month -- the first was my monthly auto payment, and the second was a check that had on it "apply to the principal" which is what the bank instructed me to do with it.

then, from what i can tell, the bank was not applying those payments to my debt, but "holding" it (?) and then charging me a fee for "holding" it. The money was coming out of my account at my credit union every month, though, so they were cashing the check.

So, I added the "fee" (which was $4? or so) to the principal check, with the note about applying it to the principal and my account number, and then they stopped taking my automatic payment because i had "paid my payment well in advance, which would be credited to my account." Meaning that they were not applying to the principal, but taking the lump sum and spreading it out and would "resume automatic payments when there was no longer a credit on my account."

I called and explained that i'd wanted to pay down my principal a little bit more each month (it was anywhere from $20 to $200 on average). They said that was fine, and I said that's what I have been trying to do for several months -- and i'd talked to my loan officer person this whole time who was "advising" me on how to do the checks, etc.

So, I assume I'm all set up, and then I go through about 4 months where I had no spare check for principal, but i still made my loan payment. Then there was something about a fee for not paying my second check, which went into the holding account. I don't know if the fee was for the holding account or for paying down. I could never figure that out.

Then the fee stacked up, and I was given a nasty letter that said if I don't pay what I owe on this monthly fee from several months (or $28 or so), then i would be in default.

So I called the bank and asked why I would be in default for paying a fee for something that I wasn't utilizing and there was some language about that, and then i discovered that my account was now with the debt collection agency.

When they called, I set up to pay the payments that I could afford each month -- which was the amount I was paying Citibank. I then asked how I could pay down on the principal, and they said that I could do that, but then it would incur a higher interest rate and a collection fee. When I asked them whether that could be waived or whatever, they said no, and that I needed to choose my payment and stick with it.

(i believe this i because the company makes more money on my debt than they make if i pay it off, because they sell the debts as investments).

After talking with my accountant (who is very conservative) about my situation, he recommended 3 courses of action: 1. taking out a home equity loan (since that would pay it off witht he amount of equity we held in the house), and paying off the debt collection agency, and then paying our credit union directly (this was before the bubble burst); 2. trying to get a consolidation loan either through the CU (they rejected me) or through the federal government (they wanted a payment that was 10X higher per month than the credit agency -- which i cannot and could not afford); or 3. saving up the lump sum and paying off the debt collection agency all at once.

Even though I was making payments, the debt collection agency sold part of my loans. I was then given notice from another debt collection agency, and then another that I owed on X amount and that they were taking me to court. I asked for all of the legal information that I needed, and I called the current debt collection agency to find out what had happened. They said because of my "failure to pay off the debt in full on demand" several months back (i'd gotten a letter to this effect, called them and ws told "don't worry, we are legally required to send that letter, but you are making payments so everything is fine.") they'd sent some of my loan on to another collection agency.

This collection agency did have all of the right paperwork, and the current debt collection agency also verified the loan. This meant that -- in court -- it wouldn't be discharged. With this second credit agency, I tried to set up a payment program, but they pushed and asserted that they were going to court for a judgment.

At this time, I was immigrating to NZ, and part of the paperwork asks if you have any court orders against you -- and had they gotten a judgment, I would have had one. I didn't want to jeopardize my chances of getting in here, and so I asked to negotiate a price with them. Our credit union approved a home equity loan, and we were able to "pay off" this collection agency and avoid judgment.

When we sold the house, we luckily retained enough value that the mortgage and home equity loan were paid off (this was post bubble), and we were also able to use the capital to set up our business here. we have no business or consumer loans. the only debt we have is my student loan debt.

because I am also on a strict budget (immigration looks at our personal and business accounts every several months because the visa stipulates that our business has to be solvent and that we cannot rely on any form of government aid while on this visa -- so they check our personal accounts to see if we are at risk and can provide financial counseling and suggest loans, grants, or other aid for our business), i can really only afford, for cash flow reasons, to make the base payment.

likewise, because I do not trust the debt collection agency to apply money to the principal, or sell the debt as I am attempting to do that, or call in the debt in it's entirety and get a judgment against me (things that have happened to friends of mine working with the same company), my accountant suggested that I save up the money and pay it off in a lump sum.

This way, i'm likely to pay less interest, because you negotiate toward the amount of the debt and a percentage of the interest, rather than paying principal, high interest, and fees. For his clients in a similar position, this is the only thing that has worked.

Though, I am considering a federal consolidation loan (again) if the new payments are less based on income.

[Zoebird]

long and short, my main concern of paying more now is that it won't be applied to the principal (as with the bank) and that it would be sold and/or sent to court for judgment, and then I would be screwed.

I'd rather loose money than loose the opportunity to immigrate.

[Spartana]

I think zombies have been getting a bad rap. I just recently met zombie in a penguin suit and completely changed my opinion of the species.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtdEKIsnEkM&feature=player_embedded

Ohhhh scary!! After a Zombie-fueled Halloween weekend watching the "Resident Evil" DVDs, I have come to the conclusion that zombies are great simple livers. They don't care about jobs, money, cars, houses, clothes or social status of any sort. They don't pollute or do any kind of environmental damage, don't use fossil fuels or electricity, they don't increase the world population by having off spring (Happy 7th Billion B-Day world population btw), they live off the land, recycle us humans for food, and well... are just gosh dern swell simple livers :-)!

[Zoebird]

lol.

i'm not sure i'd go in for the diet, but the rest would be ok. So long as the kid is happy.

in other news, they removed the little campervan from across the street from our house. we miss it. i'm still thinking of moving us into a camper van. DH is unconvinced.