here we go again...

[puglogic]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news...a-bit-of-humor

Sperm are people too. Well, okay...a half a person.
But where do you begin defining "life" ? Such an unsolvable puzzle.

[redfox]

This Virginia requirement is mad... I would think that Planned Parenthood would be the target of outrage or at minimum some grumbling, but instead it is universally represented on this SL site as the friend and savior of women.

Mad is a great way to describe this! And, yes, PP has been & is a friend & savior to many women; men too. My DSD, myself, and most of my female friends have been able to get very low cost health care and contraception, and including STI/STD testing.

[bae]

Sperm are people too. Well, okay...a half a person.
But where do you begin defining "life" ? Such an unsolvable puzzle.

[Zoebird]

I totally thought of that, too, Bae! LOL

If there are options to get ultrasounds (abdominal vs vaginal), then I can be cool with that. So long as it's for dating the pregnancy and allowing it to follow along the laws (which to me is more about the providers than the women who want the procedure -- making sure that they are out of legal liability, or rather, functioning within the law), then I can go there.

If it's about "showing women their babies!" and trying to convince them otherwise, or simply enforcing a particularly invasive procedure as part of this already difficult process, then. . . well problematic.

[flowerseverywhere]

Here's a solution to the abortion problem.

What if every man refused to have sex with a woman without a condom and spermacide. condoms are less than $1 apiece at our local walmart. The effectiveness is somewhere in the high nineties when combined with a spermacide and without a spermacide somewhere in the 80's. And they could tell the woman, if we are one of those couples who have an unwanted pregnancy, don't worry. I'll help support you and the baby, be a loving father and life partner. Because that is my responsiblity as a human being and you will never have to get government assistance, or the kids free school lunch because I'll do anything, work two jobs etc. to help you.

Problem solved. Men can hold their head high and beat their chests and yell "no more unwanted pregnancies, we've taken care of it with our half a person." Plus they will solve a lot of the welfare and food stamp problem.

You know, back on the issue of vaginal ultrasound. I've had several due to a medical condition. Not very pleasant but certainly a good diagnostic tool. I would think especially for a young girl who has little sexual experience it is really downright invasive. They have to move the probe around to get good pictures and it is pretty creepy to be honest.

[Lainey]

Have appreciated your very rational postings on this, Zoebird.

[flowerseverywhere]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news...a-bit-of-humor

Sperm are people too. Well, okay...a half a person.
But where do you begin defining "life" ? Such an unsolvable puzzle.

If sperm are half a person then a man should have strict limits on the amount of pills for erectile dysfunction they have access to (either by insurance or by purchasing them out of pocket at the pharmacy). Maybe two or three when a woman is at her peak fertility. Because if you have sex for any other reason than trying to get someone pregnant then you are killing half a person, in fact lots of half a persons. A regular serial killer.

See how ridiculous we can make all these arguments.

[Alan]

This is a clear case of government over reach and interference. They are now forcing this unnecessary, intrusive medical procedure on these women. Wow! Talk about over reaching government!

So, I think we've established the point that an ultrasound is a valid safety and diagnostic procedure for women seeking an abortion. So much so that even Planned Parenthood requires it before they will perform the procedure.

That begs the question, what is it about this mandate that troubles you so? Is it because you feel that there should be no governmental oversight of the medical industry? Or could it be that if an ultrasound is performed, the patient may, in some cases, confuse the image of unwanted tissue with a baby?

[peggy]

So, I think we've established the point that an ultrasound is a valid safety and diagnostic procedure for women seeking an abortion. So much so that even Planned Parenthood requires it before they will perform the procedure.

That begs the question, what is it about this mandate that troubles you so? Is it because you feel that there should be no governmental oversight of the medical industry? Or could it be that if an ultrasound is performed, the patient may, in some cases, confuse the image of unwanted tissue with a baby?

Glad you asked Alan, because apparently you don't get it. PP does an ultrasound strictly to determine the age of the zygote to help the doctor in the abortion. The state of Virginia demands the ultrasound because Virginia women are too stupid, apparently, to know what's in there. You yourself confirmed that suspicion. It's the intent and the reason that is so demeaning to women.
What a doctor does in the course of a medical procedure to preform that procedure is up to him and his patient. Arguing that the state is somehow looking out for women by ordering this mandate is completely absurd and insulting in the suggestion. But, someone who thinks Virginia women are stupid would think all women are stupid.

Gee, I didn't realize the Virginia Government was so CARING and personally involved in specific medical procedures to the point of mandates to specific parts of those medical procedures. I didn't realize the Governor was such an expert on medical procedures, specifically GYN, that he feels comfortable issuing mandates in those procedures. I wonder which other medical procedures he's involved in? Think maybe he has signed a mandate specifying how many stitches and how close they should be in heart surgery? Or maybe his expertise is proctology considering how far 'up there' he likes to be.

I'm not surprised you would defend this Alan. Your blind ideology, in the end, trumps everything, including your own war cry against 'government mandates'. A discussion such as this serves to ferret out the true nature of someones 'convictions' and where those convictions come from.

I have to say though, even though I generally disagree with bae on most things, he has shown a consistent respect for the women in his life, and all women really. In this he follows no ideology but his own conscience and heart. I admire that.

[flowerseverywhere]

So, I think we've established the point that an ultrasound is a valid safety and diagnostic procedure for women seeking an abortion. So much so that even Planned Parenthood requires it before they will perform the procedure.

That begs the question, what is it about this mandate that troubles you so? Is it because you feel that there should be no governmental oversight of the medical industry? Or could it be that if an ultrasound is performed, the patient may, in some cases, confuse the image of unwanted tissue with a baby?

because it is being decided by lawmakers, not physicians and medical personnel.

Physicians go to school for years and years to specialize in a field. They see things and draw on their experience to develop standards of practice that are often referred to best practices. Some decide not to participate in organizations or practices, or even hospitals that are affiliated with abortions, tubal ligation, or those that perform a vasectomies and distribute birth control and that is their right. Some physicians believe in medical intervention to prevent current and future pregnancies, and some of them in my personal experience believe in God and attend a house of worship.