Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Lasting economic damage....

Did you take Econ 101? Who pays that settlement? Where do they ultimately get that money from?

What's the nexus between the $50 million figure you pulled out of your...hat, and direct influence over the behavior of an individual officer?

I'd rather see the officer thrown into prison for assault/battery if that's what he indeed did, pour encourager les autres.Bae, something I learned my sophomore year in high school - often the only way to effect change in America - at least as far as laws and institutions go - is to affect lasting economic damage. I would not say this is the case 100% of the time but I believe this holds true more often than not. Sad but life has taught me this is true. But I also agree I'd love to see the officer thrown into prison for assault and battery ON TOP OF a huge settlement, too. Rob

As far as where does the money come from - I'm hoping the community in question has insurance for such. If not, I guess bankruptcy with a great deal of nastiness ensuing that could have been avoided had the police not acted as if above the law in the first place. This nastiness of course will entail more negative publicity and quite likely more litigation - my hope is that the terror of bankruptcy would spread throughout American communities putting more pressure on creating real and much needed reforms needed to flatten the police - by flatten I mean make them behave as if not above the law via fear of some kind of loss. I can't come up with anything else that might work - at least not in this country. Rob

[Packy]

I believe $5,000, plus medical expenses for the citizen & disciplinary action for the cop would've been sufficient. Q: What money would I get if some Thug assaulted littlebittymee? A: Nothing. Prolly, as soon as she has gone through the money that she receives(after her Lawyer grabs his fee, etc.), she, or someone just like her, will be back out in public, trying to bait a cop into assaulting her again, for another fat settlement at Taxpayer expense. It isn't the last we'll see of her. Just Betcha. I think I'll have some T-shirts & bumper stickers printed up that say "King Me--I need the money!" Sorry to be so cynical.

[bae]

As far as where does the money come from -

So, no, you didn't take Econ 101. Got it.

Your "lasting economic damage" and "terror of bankruptcy" fall upon the community being oppressed by the police, not the police. Beating Peter to pay Paul. Insurance companies don't change the equation, they simply further spread the responsibility to other parties not involved in the incident, further removing incentives for behavioural change.

[Packy]

Big payouts don't solve a problem--they seem to worsen it. A substantial part of the general public resents it, and opportunists are going to exploit it, with copy-cat incidents. Analogous to this, financial gain is why otherwise "disadvantaged" people turn out for contact sports, or engage in risky illegal enterprises. Well, isn't it? There has got to be a better way to deter these incidents; but a lottery jackpot is not the answer.

[Teacher Terry]

I would say that 50 million would be excessive. Too bad the officer did not go to prison.

[iris lilies]

The economic impact hit my neighborhood this week when thugs dropped by to rob, "in the name of Michael Brown,"a group of people leaving our neighborhood restaurant.

What a fine protest, Dr. ML King would be proud.

http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Thieves-allegedly-rob-six-victims-in-name-of-Michael-Brown-275945191.html

This is the restaurant where we have every major celebration: birthdays, anniversaries, going away parties, whatever.

[Packy]

The economic impact hit my neighborhood this week when thugs dropped by to rob, "in the name of Michael Brown,"a group of people leaving our neighborhood restaurant.

What a fine protest, Dr. ML King would be proud.

http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Thieves-allegedly-rob-six-victims-in-name-of-Michael-Brown-275945191.html

This is the restaurant where we have every major celebration: birthdays, anniversaries, going away parties, whatever. Oh, yeah--yeah. Eleven Eleven. I go there all the time, when I'm in town on business. I ask the server for the usual---a bottle of two buck chuck, and an extra-large pepperoni & sausage pizza piled HIGH with oooey-gooey Mozzzarelllie cheeeese! Dessert: Glass o' water with Baking Soda. But, one o' these days, mark my words, I'm gonna order the "Poached Pear & Fig" Pizza, baked over an oak-fired oven; I'll ask Scott, the Wine Director, for that $400 bottle of Vino De La Snoote' they've been saving for their elite Patrons, such as littlebittyme. I'll drink the whole thing, and throw the bottle against the fireplace mantle. Them thugs--well, I got a surprise for them. Ha. Just gonna tell 'em summa my JOKES, and they'll go running and never come back! Thank Me.

[dmc]

I read where the looting continues in ferguson due to a memorial catching on fire. Didn't anyone steal a garden hose? Why would any business stay there?

i guess Robs wish of economic ruin will be working out for Ferguson. I'll bet property values crash and the majority of the 30% of whites flee the city. The slums of north St. Louis are just expanding to north county.

[dmc]

Part of my stance may be due in part to the fact that I live in the inner city very close in to downtown - it seems to me the tendency here is to use excessive force and ask questions later as the belief seems to be that the cops are safe in doing so as people here can't afford to litigate. It warms my heart that my Guatemalan neighbors were able to successfully retaliate in court - they are considered heroes in the neighborhood and are very much looked up to for this. I feel fortunate living next door to them, I really do. In English you'd say my kind of people. But I digress. I do believe in "better" areas and in small towns you tend to get a different kind of cop as there would be more likely consequences for misbehavior and certainly more risk of litigation/negative publicity/job and pension loss. This is why I feel so much joy when people sue the police in legit cases of brutality/misconduct/excessive force - it's the people's way of fighting back and in a way that really does hurt. Rob

Were your neighbors able to move to a better area after their windfall? What is the crime rate for the area? I wonder how many are assaulted by police compared to the local thugs.

How much money did they get?

[CathyA]

Like I've said before........I'm sure these police have had to deal with LOTS of crime and irrational/violent/hateful/unscrupulous people for a long time. One's patience can wear thin.
Have you heard about the white state trooper shooting the unarmed/innocent black guy whom he pulled over for a seat belt offense? After seeing the video I was outraged.......as were most people. They got it on the cop's cruiser camera. This was cut and dry.
The trooper was fired immediately. Thankfully the young man he shot is recovering. He did everything right. The cop was absolutely wrong.
If it hadn't been on camera, who knows what the story would have been. Cameras in the cruisers and on the police are absolutely necessary.
I guess my point is, the Ferguson shooting wasn't easy to figure out. Plus.......so many of the protesters are still behaving in a way that only hurts their cause.

And Rob..........I think you could go on forever with the same response. I feel you should either take a more active role locally/nationally in this, or just quit talking about it here. Arguing with people on this forum isn't going to change anything. And I have to admit, some of your comments about you feeling good about certain things is fairly strange.

There's just no changing your mind, so give it a rest.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Were your neighbors able to move to a better area after their windfall? What is the crime rate for the area? I wonder how many are assaulted by police compared to the local thugs.

How much money did they get?The neighbors didn't move....they had considered it but were afraid to move to a less Hispanic more white area after seeing that their rights truly didn't mean much as far as Caucasian police were concerned. So they stayed put and paid off their house. Something good that has come out of this is that more and more neighbors have been getting cheap smartphones - right now you can get a good one for $20 at Metro PCS with a $40 total monthly bill with audio and video and the neighborhood watch organization has sent the police a statement to the effect that neighborhood residents are taking police brutality seriously and are equipping themselves with smartphones to capture video and audio of illegal police behavior. Also this has been forwarded to the mayor's office and I have to say in the past couple of weeks I have seen fewer cop cars clinging and lingering about and the one that did pass me a few days ago did not attempt to ask me an arrogant question as they so often do.

Moving back to your point, dmc, I wouldn't move out of the neighborhood if I came into some large windfall - six figures before the decimal point but I don't know the exact amount the neighbors were able to get - to do so would be to live amongst people who tend to be OK with such illegal police behavior or are willing to look the other way and give the police a free pass. I'd be guilty of condoning police brutality in an indirect way by moving to a "better" area and I don't want to live with that, I deserve better. Once you see police brutality at work right in front of you, there is no trust possible nor is there any going back towards faith in the system - ironically, in my case, I had little of either before I witnessed this.

I will say it is nice that Medicaid was expanded and even though earlier this year I had issues with whether or not I was covered - I'm grateful. So some good has taken place and I won't deny that. But, but, but.....Is it too much to ask for to not live in fear of the police illegally assaulting me for no reason? My take living in a lower income neighborhood is that in America, yes, this is asking for too much. I'm grateful every day that I'm white, not that I think white people are so great but statistically I'm less likely to be illegally assaulted by the police - neighbors tell me white skin equals a higher chance of calling the media and suing - what a sad perception as this needs to be automatic across all races. At any rate, I'll most likely stay put where I am until leaving America, or if I stay and move, it will be to somewhere like Douglas, on the border, with a large Hispanic population.

As far as how many are assaulted by police, I can't tell you. I hear stories at the neighborhood watch that I tend to believe of Hispanics walking home from work late a night stopped the police and thrown down and attacked but I was not there and I have only posted of the one incident I witnessed out of fairness. So many people where I live are terrified by the police as the perception is brown skin equals no rights in America, ditto for low income. This perception is not going to change any time soon and I don't see police behavior changing either without huge settlements and a great deal of negative publicity. At least where I live residents are equipping themselves with smartphones and warning the police of the intention of suing and warning the police of the intention to move about in pairs as to better protect themselves against the police and to better capture audio and video if necessary. And yes, America is truly that bad for some of it's citizens/legal residents. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I would say that 50 million would be excessive. Too bad the officer did not go to prison.To me, if assaulted illegally by the police, there has never been enough money printed for an adequate settlement - every dollar you can get is retaliation against a system that hypocritically and illegally allows this to happen. Every dollar you can get is inspiration to the next person illegally assaulted to retaliate via litigation, which of course is incentive for the next person and so on and so on. But I do agree that the officer should have gone to prison, too - see what I mean about police being above the law in America? Charges have not even been filed against the officer involved but at least 1.5 million - far far far too little in my book - has been paid out. At least in the courts to date one can retaliate and in a way that hurts. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

So, no, you didn't take Econ 101. Got it.

Your "lasting economic damage" and "terror of bankruptcy" fall upon the community being oppressed by the police, not the police. Beating Peter to pay Paul. Insurance companies don't change the equation, they simply further spread the responsibility to other parties not involved in the incident, further removing incentives for behavioural change.I did take Econ 101 in college - unfortunately Econ 101 did not cover the realities of being attacked/assaulted by the police illegally and the risks you run in certain subsets of the US population as to being vulnerable to such. Econ 101 is all well and fine but after realizing that the police tend towards behaving as if above the law and once you realize that you are in a vulnerable class as far as illegal police behavior - human nature takes over. Gunning for dollars and retaliation and publicity. As people very well should. As I've said many times, the good in Ferguson may very well be huge lawsuit payouts across the US earned by those victimized illegally by the police - and the incentive that more and more and more will see to sue going forward. Rob

[jp1]

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/20/3570116/st-louis-police-academy-promotes-highly-entertaining-course-on-ferguson-and-police-shootings/

So glad to see that the St Louis County police academy isn't attempting something wimpy like a class to help cops relearn when it's appropriate to shoot someone or methods to subdue someone that don't involve subduing them forever. Much better and more productive to have a class on how to handle the PR after one of your cops kills an unarmed member of the public.

[gimmethesimplelife]

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/20/3570116/st-louis-police-academy-promotes-highly-entertaining-course-on-ferguson-and-police-shootings/

So glad to see that the St Louis County police academy isn't attempting something wimpy like a class to help cops relearn when it's appropriate to shoot someone or methods to subdue someone that don't involve subduing them forever. Much better and more productive to have a class on how to handle the PR after one of your cops kills an unarmed member of the public.I read about this online and was thinking of posting it/referencing it here but decided that I'd posted enough and that by now everyone knows where I stand anyhow. Just wanted to say Thank You for posting this.....Rob

[jp1]

I figured it'd been 27 hours since anyone posted on this thread so I had to do something to revive it... :~)

[CathyA]

Oh gosh............just let it die already!

[Tradd]

http://www.kmov.com/news/just-posted/Authorities-Shots-fired-at-Ferguson-police-officer-277346131.html

A Ferguson cop has been shot. It's only in the arm, but no idea what happened yet.

Rob, are you going to applaud this?

Look at some of these tweets.

http://twitchy.com/2014/09/28/he-deserved-to-get-shot-hate-flow-after-female-ferguson-police-officer-shot/?utm_source=autotweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter

[Packy]

The police officer prolly wasn't the intended target; he might've just been caught in the crossfire during a dispute between several of Ferguson's VERY fine upstanding citizens.

[bae]

The poor person who shot that cop probably is traumatized by the whole experience. Perhaps he'll win a big civil settlement to help him recover. Rob should be gleeful at the thought.

Go go social media.

[gimmethesimplelife]

http://www.kmov.com/news/just-posted/Authorities-Shots-fired-at-Ferguson-police-officer-277346131.html

A Ferguson cop has been shot. It's only in the arm, but no idea what happened yet.

Rob, are you going to applaud this?

Look at some of these tweets.

http://twitchy.com/2014/09/28/he-deserved-to-get-shot-hate-flow-after-female-ferguson-police-officer-shot/?utm_source=autotweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitterHi Tradd.

Now maybe you can understand why I have such problems living in the United States. Why would you think I am grateful that this cop was shot? Honestly? Seriously? Really? If a cop is stopping actual illegal behavior, I'm all for it and I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE.

What I am against is cops illegally attacking and assaulting people for no reason whatsoever as I witnessed with my next door Guatemalan neighbors. This is what I have issues with and yes, it does happen, like it or not. Something else that is a real problem in America - if you go back and look over my posts I have said many times that there are probably some decent cops out there and that not all cops would attack and assault for no reason - please go back and look over my posts if interested and see this if interested. In other words, I have been reasonable to some extent and I realize this problem is not in evidence with every last cop. The problem however with your post - and I am not singling you out here Tradd, this problem exists with many other posts, too - is that it is one dimensional in the sense that yes, what happened is wrong here but there is no admission that not all cops are innocent all of the time. I on the other hand have admitted repeatedly that not all cops are bad. Once again, please refer to my prior posts as proof if interested.

Unfortunately, this is a two way street and there are bad cops of which terror and fear is a correct response, and their motto is not to serve and protect but to terrorize and spread fear. Once again, this is not every last cop, but unfortunately it does exist and I have seen it in action. Big reason I will never be able to trust the police in America until some laws are passed to make them vulnerable to consequences for illegal behavior - as I've said, I'm all for instant pension loss and I also believe twice the lockup time that an everyday person would be sentenced for for a given crime - or at least automatic maximum sentencing for illegal police behavior with no probation or parole. From what I've seen, only severe consequences will flatten the cops that have power tripping issues - the trash the causes the fear and terror and distrust of the cops that I and my neighbors rightly feel and perceive.

But to get back to my point - you are right in your post here as far as I am concerned. The problem is, giving cops an automatic free pass doesn't work as you have the trash that brutally attacks and assaults innocent people such as my Guatemalan neighbors.....Your post shows no balance in the sense that not all cops are innocent. Just my seventeen cents. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

The police officer prolly wasn't the intended target; he might've just been caught in the crossfire during a dispute between several of Ferguson's VERY fine upstanding citizens.Some of the residents of Ferguson more than likely ARE fine and upstanding citizens as I consider myself to be. Some are people caught in an unpleasant life situation doing the best they can with what they have to work with, and some are the unfortunate stereotype that arises from such areas. Not all are bad any more than not all cops are bad - but there are bad cops that have no business being in uniform here and there are residents that probably should not be walking the streets free here, too. My point is that the situation is not one dimensional - there is a sprectrum of different types of cops and residents at play in Ferguson. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

s
The poor person who shot that cop probably is traumatized by the whole experience. Perhaps he'll win a big civil settlement to help him recover. Rob should be gleeful at the thought.

Go go social media.When did I EVER say or imply that it was just to shoot at a cop? When did I ever say or imply that such behavior justifies a settlement? Please refer to my numerous prior posts in which I speak of huge settlements for illegal police behavior and for attacking/assaulting innocent people just for the hell of it.....click on my page and you can easily refer to my prior posts and see my point.

I may be harsh sometimes when I stand up for basic human rights and dignity but in my own way I'm also very fair. Of course in this situation I don't believe the perp should be getting a settlement. Rob

[Packy]

If I had a choice of living next to an auto salvage yard, or in an area that was prone to civil disturbances and the risk of being accosted by thugs, I would most definitely choose to reside next to the recycler. I sure would. Don't like thugs. Although, maybe some good will come of the Ferguson incident. In the future, maybe Thugs will automatically raise their hands, and say "don't shoot", whenever they are stopped by the po-lice. We can always hope for the best.

[Tradd]

Rob, from your extreme tone, it's seemed that you wanted the po-lice to get whatever they had coming to them.

If you don't like the US, why don't you leave? Is it because you wouldn't meet the standards of whatever country has for immigrants?

When immigrants have bitterly complained about the US in my presence, I've asked them why did they come here? I follow it up with, if you loathe it so much, then why don't you return to whatever country you came from? That usually shuts them up.

You think you're being brave by shouldering the expense for a smartphone so you can capture video of any police misconduct in progress, yet you admit that you would abandon anyone in trouble and not call the cops because you're afraid of inviting "the man" into your life. In my eyes, you're no better than the bystanders who take video of incidents like this:

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/crime/2014/09/07/over-100-teens-swarm-memphis-plaza-knocking-out-shoppers/15262309/

Do you actually do anything productive in your community besides being on the prowl for cops behaving badly?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, from your extreme tone, it's seemed that you wanted the po-lice to get whatever they had coming to them.

If you don't like the US, why don't you leave? Is it because you wouldn't meet the standards of whatever country has for immigrants?

When immigrants have bitterly complained about the US in my presence, I've asked them why did they come here? I follow it up with, if you loathe it so much, then why don't you return to whatever country you came from? That usually shuts them up.

You think you're being brave by shouldering the expense for a smartphone so you can capture video of any police misconduct in progress, yet you admit that you would abandon anyone in trouble and not call the cops because you're afraid of inviting "the man" into your life. In my eyes, you're no better than the bystanders who take video of incidents like this:

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/crime/2014/09/07/over-100-teens-swarm-memphis-plaza-knocking-out-shoppers/15262309/

Do you actually do anything productive in your community besides being on the prowl for cops behaving badly?What really stands out in your post for me here? The fact that although you are quite articulate and get your point across well - even though I don't agree with it I'd say your point does come across well - I admit how I feel about the police does not apply to each and every last cop. OTOH, it seems as if you are unwilling to conceive that an officer of the law could even consider committing an illegal act of police brutality - as if such a thing could never happen. Your post lacks balance to me - as I have readily admitted many times that not all cops are bad but I don't trust them as there is a huge risk involved in dealing with them. I don't see such balance in your post here (or truth be told in many other poster's posts here). For the last time, yes, illegal unprovoked acts of police brutality do take place, they tend to take place in lower income areas, I have witnessed such (and have the privilege of living next door to heroes who retaliated via a successful lawsuit) and not all cops are bad. I don't know how much more clear I can be to those who can't even conceive or admit that not all cops are fine and outstanding and above reproach.

For what it's worth, after having experienced what I have, I find your tone quite extreme - once again in the sense that it seems that you can't conceive or admit that there are those officers who engage in illegal attacks/assaults for no reason. Seriously, to someone who has experienced - or at least witnessed as in my case, such - this denial seems quite extreme. And naïve, too. But I have read your posts here for some years, Tradd, and I do believe you mean well and are not being personal - I believe you have had no occasion to learn otherwise or experience otherwise as I have. Good for you and I mean that with no sarcasm. America does not work that way for everyone though, and if you walk away with anything from this post, please let it be this - America does not work this way for everyone. I close with that and wish you a good evening. Rob

[iris lilies]

...those who can't even conceive or admit that not all cops are fine and outstanding and above reproach...

I sincerely doubt that anyone who has posted on this thread thinks that "all cops are ...above reproach" without qualification. You would have to show me who said that for me to believe it. You are making an interpretation of information that's not there.

[bae]

You are making an interpretation of information that's not there.

Rob believes he is entitled to his own opinion, and his own facts.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob believes he is entitled to his own opinion, and his own facts.I find this comment very illuminating but not in the way I'm guessing you'd like it to be, Bae. I live in a large inner city neighborhood in Phoenix where you are going to be very hard pressed to find anyone who sees the police unlike I do - that's just the reality of the situation. But yes, based on the facts of how the police have treated the residents of this neighborhood over the years - we are behaving logically and sanely based on the facts presented to us to date. And yes, America really is that bad for some of it's citizens/legal residents. And I think it's a good thing that you are not similar with such an area in Washington State, Bae - the presence of a reality so very different from what you believe - how would that sit with you? I don't know you so I can't say. I can say that presence of a reality so night and day from mine doesn't make me uncomfortable but it does sadden me as it only serves to reinforce something I learned about America when I was 13 - we are not all created equal. Nor are our lives or the level of human rights we experience equal across the board in any way. I'm glad I learned that one young, I really am - Imagine going to a high school where there were snotty rich kids - something ironic about my story is that I was districted in to such a high school back in the day - who had no idea of what I just posted. Really eye opening to me that there were 16 year olds who were so unacquainted with basic reality. I felt sorry for them in a way, I really did, as when (and if) they learned differently, it probably was really hard for them. Rob

[dmc]

So you live in a area that has one of the highest crime rates in the country. And the police are the bad guys. And you have been a victim since 13, but feel sorry for "snotty rich kids" who didn't feel the same as you did.

Im sure the police in Phoenix hate going into your neighborhood also, they are risking their lives dealing with the high numbers of criminals that live there. I'm not saying everyone is, but the crime rate supports it, and many like you wouldn't report. So the rates may even be higher.

i guess you would consider me one of those "snotty rich kids". I learned at a early age to stay out of the bad parts of town, I still do. Why would I want to increase my chances of being robbed, or assaulted, and I don't use drugs. So there is nothing there for me. The thugs and you can continue to live there. I'll stay in the low crime areas, where we are happy that the police keep the peace. And are friends of ours.

[Teacher Terry]

I don't usually agree with Rob but I have to say that communities really vary as far the police dept goes. I have lived in many places where yes I would call the police if there was a problem. However, after 17 years here I would not. They shoot people & ask questions later all the time no matter what part of town you live in. And yes we live in a nice neighborhood. I too do not venture into bad neighborhoods. A woman called police because her Mom was suicidal & when they got there both went outside & the cops shot the woman that called in the leg & then killed her Mom. This kind of crap happens all the time.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I don't usually agree with Rob but I have to say that communities really vary as far the police dept goes. I have lived in many places where yes I would call the police if there was a problem. However, after 17 years here I would not. They shoot people & ask questions later all the time no matter what part of town you live in. And yes we live in a nice neighborhood. I too do not venture into bad neighborhoods. A woman called police because her Mom was suicidal & when they got there both went outside & the cops shot the woman that called in the leg & then killed her Mom. This kind of crap happens all the time.Terry, I'm really sorry to hear this. Both for the victims and for the fact that this has spread into a nicer neighborhood - in Phoenix this is pretty much contained to lower income areas (to date, who says things will remain this way?) You sound very aware so I probably don't need to say this but be safe! Never trust the police and consider equipping yourself with video and audio capabilities against the police just in case as you never know. Thanks for posting! Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, from your extreme tone, it's seemed that you wanted the po-lice to get whatever they had coming to them.

If you don't like the US, why don't you leave? Is it because you wouldn't meet the standards of whatever country has for immigrants?

When immigrants have bitterly complained about the US in my presence, I've asked them why did they come here? I follow it up with, if you loathe it so much, then why don't you return to whatever country you came from? That usually shuts them up.

You think you're being brave by shouldering the expense for a smartphone so you can capture video of any police misconduct in progress, yet you admit that you would abandon anyone in trouble and not call the cops because you're afraid of inviting "the man" into your life. In my eyes, you're no better than the bystanders who take video of incidents like this:

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/crime/2014/09/07/over-100-teens-swarm-memphis-plaza-knocking-out-shoppers/15262309/

Do you actually do anything productive in your community besides being on the prowl for cops behaving badly?

Hi Tradd!

To answer some of the issues arising from your post:

1. Some immigrants to the US do go back as the United States is not a good fit for them and this society doesn't work for them for whatever reason. The ones I have known who have fled the US though have tended to stack some cash before fleeing home and I can't blame them for doing so.

2. As to what I have done in the neighborhood - a few things. I went from door to door before Medicaid was expanded and started a telephone tree and program whereby when someone was going to a border town - such as Algodones - they could give rides to neighbors so that more people could access non-exploitively priced medical, dental, and optical. The fact that my skin is white and my Spanish could use some work won me a great deal of respect that I went from door to door and spent time setting this up. People are still meeting one another and driving one another down to the border even after the passage of Medicaid expansion (most people in this neighborhood qualify) for dental at human prices.

I also was one of the people that went from door to door to get the neighborhood watch going and to get monthly neighborhood meetings going once the city offered us neighborhood status - they didn't give us historical status which we wanted but they give us neighborhood status.

I noticed a couple of years ago that people in this neighborhood - though taking broken appliances and gadgets back to Mexico for recycling/repair - were not recycling much of their paper, glass, plastic, and cardboard - I called the city and they came and spoke at a local school in Spanish about recycling and put up posters and flyers in the neighborhood in Spanish as to what recycles and how easy it is to recycle. Recycling isn't going as great as I'd like to see but it's not as sad as it once was, either.

I was the one who did the research for affordable smart phones to potentially record audio and video of illegal police behavior for litigation/human rights purposes. I didn't do the presentation, however, as my Spanish is still not good enough but I am working on that now taking Spanish 102.

Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

So you live in a area that has one of the highest crime rates in the country. And the police are the bad guys. And you have been a victim since 13, but feel sorry for "snotty rich kids" who didn't feel the same as you did.

Im sure the police in Phoenix hate going into your neighborhood also, they are risking their lives dealing with the high numbers of criminals that live there. I'm not saying everyone is, but the crime rate supports it, and many like you wouldn't report. So the rates may even be higher.

i guess you would consider me one of those "snotty rich kids". I learned at a early age to stay out of the bad parts of town, I still do. Why would I want to increase my chances of being robbed, or assaulted, and I don't use drugs. So there is nothing there for me. The thugs and you can continue to live there. I'll stay in the low crime areas, where we are happy that the police keep the peace. And are friends of ours.I never said I live in an area with one of the highest crime rates in the country. If you will kindly go back to my posts you will see I never have claimed such. I have however said that I live in a large lower income neighborhood that borders a much nicer area and that has a majority Hispanic population. This meets the qualifying criteria for instances of police brutality in Phoenix, Arizona. To the west is a worse area and to the south of me is an worse area. I am not at the bottom of the barrel here but am low enough to be vulnerable to police brutality as are my neighbors. Perhaps one difference that makes you uncomfortable (?) is the active anti police stance here and the willingness to equip ourselves with technology against the police and the honesty to inform both the police and city that the residents of this neighborhood are fed up and intend to video and audio capture the police engaged in any illegal acts from this point going forward, with the goal of huge settlements. Most urban residents are not quite this upfront and honest with those in authority - it's time to let them know they are vulnerable to us, too, and this is no longer a one way street. As for hating going into my neighborhood, statistically they are less safe in other Phoenix neighborhoods - here they feel safe to engage in brutality as they see Hispanics as less likely to stand up for themselves. This is a big reason why the smartphones are so important - so that the police learn this neighborhood is not open to illegal acts of police brutality and that residents will gun for top dollar as a moral and ethical imperative. As for crime rates here, I will agree with you on one point, dmc, that the rate is higher than is reported - this is due to the terror of the police and the terror of police brutality. Yet another reason why any and all interaction with the police MUST be on video and audio capture from this point going forward. To force the police to do their job and to force them under threat of job and pension loss to do so and to force the city to force them to remain within the confines of the law via huge settlements for non-compliance. And yes, America truly is that horrible for some of it's citizens/legal residents that such thinking/behavior realistically needs to be as second nature as breathing these days.

As to the snotty rich kids I went to high school with - an interesting aside. I am finding out from being in touch with the organizers of my 30th reunion that some of the kids I graduated with couldn't handle life once things got too difficult and/or once the economy bottomed out in 2008 onwards. A couple of suicides, divorces ending out in severe setbacks for several of the popular guys who made my life hell, and a few scattered nervous breakdowns, mostly in the women it seems. And mostly amongst those who really were popular and at the top in high school. I find myself interestingly enough with compassion. I don't know what lead to these issues to be honest but I am glad that I figured out some of life quick - and very quickly became disillusioned with so much at such a young age. I feel this has served me well as it has kept my expectations overall in line - for the most part, anyway, I have had my lapses in this during the boom I will admit to. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

So you live in a area that has one of the highest crime rates in the country. And the police are the bad guys. And you have been a victim since 13, but feel sorry for "snotty rich kids" who didn't feel the same as you did.

Im sure the police in Phoenix hate going into your neighborhood also, they are risking their lives dealing with the high numbers of criminals that live there. I'm not saying everyone is, but the crime rate supports it, and many like you wouldn't report. So the rates may even be higher.

i guess you would consider me one of those "snotty rich kids". I learned at a early age to stay out of the bad parts of town, I still do. Why would I want to increase my chances of being robbed, or assaulted, and I don't use drugs. So there is nothing there for me. The thugs and you can continue to live there. I'll stay in the low crime areas, where we are happy that the police keep the peace. And are friends of ours.The vast majority of my neighbors are not thugs but are hard working struggling Hispanics who I feel honored to live amongst and who I would tend to trust (with a few scattered exceptions, I'll grant that here and now but for the vast majority of neighbors - over 95% - this holds true) before I would trust Anglos living in a "better" neighborhood to the North of me. The reason I feel this way - most of these people have known fear and disillusionment on a level I have (and in some cases far surpassing what I have known) and I can relate to them much better because of this, even with some language difficulty issues. Rob

[dmc]

I got the crime rates from google on Phoenix and various downtown neighborhoods. Good luck with your neighborhood, hopefully you will be able to keep the police out and from bothering you.

Ill stay in my affluent area where I leave my door unlocked much of the time and people walk around in no fear. The only problem I have is keeping beer in the tiki bar. I'm next to the 17th tee box and some of my golfing friends help themselves. I told them they could, I don't even drink beer.

im glad I moved out of the St. Louis area. Not that there aren't many nice, safe neighborhoods, it just that sometime you may find yourself in a area like Ferguson.

[flowerseverywhere]

Rob, when did the Guatemalan brutality incident take place and when was the settlement reached. I have been reading a lot about the various police brutality incidents around the country but have found no mention of the case you refer to.

[bae]

... Hispanics ... I would tend to trust ... before I would trust Anglos.... The reason I feel this way ...

... is abundantly clear to everyone here.

[bae]

Good luck with your neighborhood, hopefully you will be able to keep the police out and from bothering you.


A month or so ago a friend and coworker of mine, an evil cop, off-duty, ran into a burning structure, twice, without his protective firefighting gear (he's a volunteer firefighter in his spare time, that's just how evil he is...), and dragged two people out, alive, all by himself.

http://www.sanjuanjournal.com/news/276402361.html

In neighborhoods with Rob's Values, responding firefighters and EMTs are often now met with gunfire.

[gimmethesimplelife]

A month or so ago a friend and coworker of mine, an evil cop, off-duty, ran into a burning structure, twice, without his protective firefighting gear (he's a volunteer firefighter in his spare time, that's just how evil he is...), and dragged two people out, alive, all by himself.

http://www.sanjuanjournal.com/news/276402361.html

In neighborhoods with Rob's Values, responding firefighters and EMTs are often now met with gunfire.Gunfire? Seriously? Really? You believe this? Wow. Not in my neighborhood. Sorry to disillusion you (actually I'm not sorry) but that's just not true. What the police here are now met with is an intensely distrustful public armed with technology to capture video and audio to gun for maximum dollars when appropriate. The police here have more than earned this - as the saying goes, you reap what you sow. Let the Phoenix police (and hopefully other police departments) reap in abundance. I mean this with the most sincere of intentions. But there is a part of me that feels sorry for honest cops who have to deal with this intense distrust earned via illegal actions performed by their colleagues - that must be high burnout to deal with. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

... is abundantly clear to everyone here.And there's something wrong with gravitating towards those who understand some of what you have experienced in life? Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, when did the Guatemalan brutality incident take place and when was the settlement reached. I have been reading a lot about the various police brutality incidents around the country but have found no mention of the case you refer to.My neighbors did get an attorney but ended out settling out of court for less than they could have and I think this is why there was very little publicity surrounding this case. The local Hispanic paper La Voz did a piece on it - let me see if I can find it. As for the dates, this was settled in October of 2011 - the incident took place in March of 2010. Ironically enough the only reason I had even stepped outside was to field an interview call for the North Rim of the Grand Canyon for summer seasonal work that year and obviously, I had to excuse myself from the phone and get back to them later. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I got the crime rates from google on Phoenix and various downtown neighborhoods. Good luck with your neighborhood, hopefully you will be able to keep the police out and from bothering you.

Ill stay in my affluent area where I leave my door unlocked much of the time and people walk around in no fear. The only problem I have is keeping beer in the tiki bar. I'm next to the 17th tee box and some of my golfing friends help themselves. I told them they could, I don't even drink beer.

im glad I moved out of the St. Louis area. Not that there aren't many nice, safe neighborhoods, it just that sometime you may find yourself in a area like Ferguson.Dmc, let's for the sake of argument say I came into a large amout of money through some legal way. Let's say I could afford to move to a nicer area. Let's say that I did. Do you honestly believe that knowing what I know about America and how the lower classes are treated here that I could ever be happy in a "nicer" area? Seriously? Do you honestly believe that getting a moving van and moving to a more affluent zip code could just make years of hard earned knowledge just magically disappear? Wow. Just wow. Well, all I can say is no, life doesn't work this way. I'm not one to look the other way from anything unpleasant life has taught me and I'm not one to smile and act like things are OK when they are not. No can do, I respect human dignity too much. I'm glad - no sarcasm meant - that you are happy with where you live and I'm glad that I am somewhere I feel comfortable and amongst people I can understand. Why can't we both be glad we have found comfort zones? My only issue is that I don't care to have illegal police attacks/assaults going on in my neighborhood. Based on the law that you seem to have such a high regard for, this is after all illegal. Is it too much to ask for that the police behave themselves in accordance with the law, even if I don't live in an affluent area? But at the same time I don't begrudge you your affluent area - I just realize I'd never fit in there as I have learned too much about America to ever fit in in such a place. That doesn't mean though that I hold it against you that you live in such an area and enjoy it - more power to you. OTOH, I'd like to believe I'm worth the basic human right to not live in fear of police brutality in my neighborhood much as you don't live in fear of it in yours. Are we not created equal in the words of your government? Rob

[bae]

Gunfire? Seriously? Really? You believe this? Wow.

Yes, seriously.

I know you don't particularly care about facts, but I have mountains of charts, graphs, incident reports down at the station, and so on. Violence against first responders is a major and growing problem these days. Some departments are issuing bulletproof vests to firefighters and EMTs, which is sort of daft if you think about the heat stress a firefighter is already operating under.

We're developing new training and protocols to deal with the situation.

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10861588/nfff-aims-to-keep-responders-safe-from-violence

[dmc]

Gunfire? Seriously? Really? You believe this? Wow. Not in my neighborhood. Sorry to disillusion you (actually I'm not sorry) but that's just not true. What the police here are now met with is an intensely distrustful public armed with technology to capture video and audio to gun for maximum dollars when appropriate. The police here have more than earned this - as the saying goes, you reap what you sow. Let the Phoenix police (and hopefully other police departments) reap in abundance. I mean this with the most sincere of intentions. But there is a part of me that feels sorry for honest cops who have to deal with this intense distrust earned via illegal actions performed by their colleagues - that must be high burnout to deal with. Rob

Google it, firefighters being shot at while responding to calls happens. Their job is dangers enough without being shot at. Probably happens more often than white cops shoot innocent black kids. But like black folks killing innocent white folks it doesn't cause looting and riots.

[dmc]

Yes, seriously.

I know you don't particularly care about facts, but I have mountains of charts, graphs, incident reports down at the station, and so on. Violence against first responders is a major and growing problem these days. Some departments are issuing bulletproof vests to firefighters and EMTs, which is sort of daft if you think about the heat stress a firefighter is already operating under.

We're developing new training and protocols to deal with the situation.

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10861588/nfff-aims-to-keep-responders-safe-from-violence

rob is not concerned with facts, he became aware at 13.

[dmc]

Dmc, let's for the sake of argument say I came into a large amout of money through some legal way. Let's say I could afford to move to a nicer area. Let's say that I did. Do you honestly believe that knowing what I know about America and how the lower classes are treated here that I could ever be happy in a "nicer" area? Seriously? Do you honestly believe that getting a moving van and moving to a more affluent zip code could just make years of hard earned knowledge just magically disappear? Wow. Just wow. Well, all I can say is no, life doesn't work this way. I'm not one to look the other way from anything unpleasant life has taught me and I'm not one to smile and act like things are OK when they are not. No can do, I respect human dignity too much. I'm glad - no sarcasm meant - that you are happy with where you live and I'm glad that I am somewhere I feel comfortable and amongst people I can understand. Why can't we both be glad we have found comfort zones? My only issue is that I don't care to have illegal police attacks/assaults going on in my neighborhood. Based on the law that you seem to have such a high regard for, this is after all illegal. Is it too much to ask for that the police behave themselves in accordance with the law, even if I don't live in an affluent area? But at the same time I don't begrudge you your affluent area - I just realize I'd never fit in there as I have learned too much about America to ever fit in in such a place. That doesn't mean though that I hold it against you that you live in such an area and enjoy it - more power to you. OTOH, I'd like to believe I'm worth the basic human right to not live in fear of police brutality in my neighborhood much as you don't live in fear of it in yours. Are we not created equal in the words of your government? Rob

I never said that the police have a right to do anything illegal. But I do give them the benefit of the dought with what they have to deal with.

And your correct, you would not fit in here. And I would have no desire to live where you do. I do have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to live in the poor parts of town thou. But wow, just wow, sometimes you come across as a drama queen.

[jp1]

A month or so ago a friend and coworker of mine, an evil cop, off-duty, ran into a burning structure, twice, without his protective firefighting gear (he's a volunteer firefighter in his spare time, that's just how evil he is...), and dragged two people out, alive, all by himself.

http://www.sanjuanjournal.com/news/276402361.html

In neighborhoods with Rob's Values, responding firefighters and EMTs are often now met with gunfire.

Makes one wonder why people have such suspicion about first responders. I'd agree that it's misplaced with regard to EMTs and firefighters. But I've read enough about bad cop actions and changes in procedure at the management level (stop and frisk policies that target neighborhoods like Rob's for example) that I can see why people in lower economic neighborhoods don't trust cops. People with curiosity as to whether this actually happens might want to read Matt Taibbi's "The Divide" to get an idea of how policing is done these days in poorer urban neighborhoods.

[bae]

Makes one wonder why people have such suspicion about first responders. I'd agree that it's misplaced with regard to EMTs and firefighters.

I think in Failed America, everyone in a uniform of whatever sort is viewed as The Man.

We've been recently having more incidents of the type "fake medical call, or arson event, designed to draw in responders to be shot at" - I think they took this playbook right out of the Middle East.

[flowerseverywhere]

My neighbors did get an attorney but ended out settling out of court for less than they could have and I think this is why there was very little publicity surrounding this case. The local Hispanic paper La Voz did a piece on it - let me see if I can find it. As for the dates, this was settled in October of 2011 - the incident took place in March of 2010. Ironically enough the only reason I had even stepped outside was to field an interview call for the North Rim of the Grand Canyon for summer seasonal work that year and obviously, I had to excuse myself from the phone and get back to them later. Rob
I would love to read the account of the story. It might shed some light as to why you feel so strongly. I can find no mention. If it was big enough to warrant a settlement there has to be something published somewhere. Surely you must be able to point me to a story since you have names, neighborhoods and dates. In English. This is America and I only speak French and English, but even in Spanish I could get the gist of the story.

but I have an interesting story. In NY I lived in a very nice middle class development. One day a coworker and I went to the house of another coworker and we knew something was wrong, she was supposed to meet us for lunch and her car was in the garage. A neighbor saw us and had a key. We went I and she had attempted suicide. So we called 911 and the parMedics arrived first. They could not enter until the police arrived. It was policy. They arrived a minute later and entered with guns drawn. After she was of stabilized we were interviewed by the police. At the time we were appalled but they explained there had been so many paramedics and first responders injured for any type of odd situation the police had to go in first. Our friend survived but it was one of those crazy aha moments for me. You can't save anyone if you are dead and they had to take their safety into consideration.

[bae]

You can't save anyone if you are dead and they had to take their safety into consideration.

"Everyone Goes Home" - not just pretty words.

[jp1]

I think in Failed America, everyone in a uniform of whatever sort is viewed as The Man.



True that. And once the people in uniforms realize that they're just pawns in The Man's game of conquest and stop acting on his behalf the failure will be complete. The only way to avoid that ending will be if we can change things so that our politicians are no longer bought and paid for by those with the most speech (money) and actually act on behalf of the majority of the electorate.

[flowerseverywhere]

Bae, I looked up that site. Great info as to what first responders face.

[Tammy]

I worked as a psych nurse in a large regional jail for a few years. One of the hardest lessons was not responding to a medical code until security cleared us to enter the cell block.

[gimmethesimplelife]

And the plot continues to thicken.....Turns out a cop in Illinois lost his badge (I don't know the status of his pension benefits) for posting on Facebook that Darren Wilson did a favor to society by shooting Michael Brown.....This is the kind of mentality I am talking about in the police that causes my neighborhood to live in terror of the police. Combine this mentality with a gun and the results are not always going to be good both for innocent victims or for local police departments causing multi-million dollar settlements for their over the top and illegal behavior. There is no excuse for this man posting such on Facebook nor should he EVER have been in uniform nor should be draw a pension. I can only hope that activists take this situation and give it the attention it so richly deserves. Good news is that more and more trash such as this in police departments seems to be being revealed lately, I can only hope such continues and I do believe there is no turning back the thirst for vengeance persons victimized feel against the police via huge lawsuit settlements. At least there is some sanity entering the equation here and it is about time.....Rob

[Alan]

And the plot continues to thicken.....
I really don't believe there is a plot.

There is no excuse for this man posting such on Facebook nor should he EVER have been in uniform nor should be draw a pension. I can only hope that activists take this situation and give it the attention it so richly deserves.
Do you hold others to the same standard or is it only anyone associated with the police? What should we do about the thousands of death threats made in social media against the police officer and his family? Should activists gather together and work to have each and every party to those threats fired and their assets seized? Should you be penalized financially for continuing to stir the pot? Where do you draw the line?

[bae]

Post to Facebook, lose your pension for ThoughtCrime.

Rob's World is a delightful place. I hope he gets to live in it soon!

[LDAHL]

Where is all this pension envy coming from?

[ApatheticNoMore]

Where is all this pension envy coming from?

Who wouldn't like to have a pension? But the baby boomers were the last who ever had one other than working for the government. So yea they are lucky to have them. But since that's almost noone these days: back to reality, oops there goes gravity ...

[bae]

Where is all this pension envy coming from?

Blend in a healthy dose of glee at "large settlements", sprinkle with "thirst for vengeance", stir in some "lasting economic damage" and finish with a little "terror of bankruptcy", and you have Rob's World, where neighbors never call the police except maybe to fill out insurance forms, and community policing rules the day (along with community firefighting, and community EMS services, as nobody will bother showing up anymore to a call, even from a crowd-sourced social justice cell phone network.)

Behold the future:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/google-street-view-shows-decay-of-detroit/

[creaker]

Blend in a healthy dose of glee at "large settlements", sprinkle with "thirst for vengeance", stir in some "lasting economic damage" and finish with a little "terror of bankruptcy", and you have Rob's World, where neighbors never call the police except maybe to fill out insurance forms, and community policing rules the day (along with community firefighting, and community EMS services, as nobody will bother showing up anymore to a call, even from a crowd-sourced social justice cell phone network.)

Behold the future:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/google-street-view-shows-decay-of-detroit/

I've "walked" through parts of Detroit using Google Maps streetview - it's much more real when a photographer isn't cherry picking spots for you.

[LDAHL]

Blend in a healthy dose of glee at "large settlements", sprinkle with "thirst for vengeance", stir in some "lasting economic damage" and finish with a little "terror of bankruptcy", and you have Rob's World, where neighbors never call the police except maybe to fill out insurance forms, and community policing rules the day (along with community firefighting, and community EMS services, as nobody will bother showing up anymore to a call, even from a crowd-sourced social justice cell phone network.)

Behold the future:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/google-street-view-shows-decay-of-detroit/

But if there's no faith in the criminal justice system to hold criminal cops to account, why is there so much faith in the civil courts to punish taxpayers by proxy?

[gimmethesimplelife]

But if there's no faith in the criminal justice system to hold criminal cops to account, why is there so much faith in the civil courts to punish taxpayers by proxy?Because unfortunately the only way to affect change in America is via staggering financial loss - I don't hold that this is true 100% of the time but as for the police, I don't know of any other way to curb their behavior so as to confine them to what the law allows. Also large settlements inspire other victims to sue so it becomes a continuous cycle of hope and potential renewal until something caves and hopefully, the police will eventually be forced to do their jobs and not behave as if above the law. Until such a date, let's cheer on those who are able to reap windfalls due to illegal police behavior. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Blend in a healthy dose of glee at "large settlements", sprinkle with "thirst for vengeance", stir in some "lasting economic damage" and finish with a little "terror of bankruptcy", and you have Rob's World, where neighbors never call the police except maybe to fill out insurance forms, and community policing rules the day (along with community firefighting, and community EMS services, as nobody will bother showing up anymore to a call, even from a crowd-sourced social justice cell phone network.)

Behold the future:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/google-street-view-shows-decay-of-detroit/When face with what the police get away with in lower income American neighborhoods, the recipe you detail above is one of hope and potential renewal for those living in such neighborhoods. And yes, America is truly that horrible for some of it's citizens/legal residents. Until such a date as this reality is accepted by society at large, this recipe will be continue to be served on daily basis throughout America lower income neighborhoods. Can't deal with it? Don't add to it then by giving the police a free pass and by auto-siding with them and help by ALWAYS questioning any action taken by them until just cause is established. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Where is all this pension envy coming from?To give police a pension when they are guilty of illegal assault/attacks on innocent people? Never has enough money been printed for an adequate settlement for so many US victims of illegal police behavior and YET THEY STILL GET A PENSION? Do you see anything way off base on this at all? I sure do. From miles and miles and miles away. Rob

[iris lilies]

"Everyone Goes Home" - not just pretty words.

Through the ongoing protests in Ferguson, whiners refuse to give recognition to the fact that while police have been on duty straight for many weeks, there have been no injuries or loss of life since Mike Brown was killed. Yet there are the cops holding back crowds, making physical arrests, keeping traffic pathways clear, making efforts to protect citizens and businesses from the protestors who continue to stir up trouble after curfew.

Complainypants drama queens refuse to recognize that "Everyone Going Home" is actually a pretty big accomplishment given this scenario: 7+ weeks of cops arresting people, moving them along and keeping traffic paths clear and businesses (kinda/sorta) safe. It would be easy to have a physical altercation of substance with the childlike goons in the streets, given their non-compliance with just about anything and their demands for what, exactly, I haven't figured out. They are losing ground with the opinions of reasonable people who were a whole lot more sympathetic than I was towards them weeks ago.

Paying attention to (potential) loss of civil rights is important, but these protestors aren't representing that issue with any gravitas.

[LDAHL]

Because unfortunately the only way to affect change in America is via staggering financial loss - I don't hold that this is true 100% of the time but as for the police, I don't know of any other way to curb their behavior so as to confine them to what the law allows. Also large settlements inspire other victims to sue so it becomes a continuous cycle of hope and potential renewal until something caves and hopefully, the police will eventually be forced to do their jobs and not behave as if above the law. Until such a date, let's cheer on those who are able to reap windfalls due to illegal police behavior. Rob

But if you're convinced that what you view as justice is impossible through the criminal courts, why are you so sure that the civil courts will deliver it?

[gimmethesimplelife]

But if you're convinced that what you view as justice is impossible through the criminal courts, why are you so sure that the civil courts will deliver it?i'm not sure. But large settlements have taken place in the not so recent past and with the advent of social media and all the anger that is present out there in the lower social classes towards the United States and everything it stands for these days - it's only common sense that the courts will grant settlements as if they don't, the whole thing could explode and the reality of America could sift upwards through the social classes more than it already has. I'm not sure society wants that just yet - too many people unanchored with nothing really to lose does not for calm and stable conditions make. Rob

[Alan]

i'm not sure. But large settlements have taken place in the not so recent past and with the advent of social media and all the anger that is present out there in the lower social classes towards the United States and everything it stands for these days - it's only common sense that the courts will grant settlements as if they don't, the whole thing could explode and the reality of America could sift upwards through the social classes more than it already has. I'm not sure society wants that just yet - too many people unanchored with nothing really to lose does not for calm and stable conditions make. Rob
I hate to think about a country where civil & criminal law were based upon the vagaries of social media and emotional rantings. If you fear the police now, just wait until the mob gets its sights on you.

Common sense is not the phrase I'd use when discussing court decisions based upon your criteria.

[flowerseverywhere]

I have been thinking about your response when you posted even if a young woman was being gang raped or an elderly man was being beaten and robbed, you would not call 911. How do you get teachers to come into the schools? And merchants to open stores. Or visiting nurses to come help the sick? Or physician offices to open in the neighborhood?

I can can imagine with the scenario you have painted the police force is not going to send in Mayberry RFD when their is a problem. They would be eaten alive in five minutes.

[LDAHL]

i'm not sure. But large settlements have taken place in the not so recent past and with the advent of social media and all the anger that is present out there in the lower social classes towards the United States and everything it stands for these days - it's only common sense that the courts will grant settlements as if they don't, the whole thing could explode and the reality of America could sift upwards through the social classes more than it already has. I'm not sure society wants that just yet - too many people unanchored with nothing really to lose does not for calm and stable conditions make. Rob

So you feel that the Courts will decide cases out of the fear that otherwise there will be widespread mob violence? Out of hatred for "the United States and all it stands for"?

I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I have been thinking about your response when you posted even if a young woman was being gang raped or an elderly man was being beaten and robbed, you would not call 911. How do you get teachers to come into the schools? And merchants to open stores. Or visiting nurses to come help the sick? Or physician offices to open in the neighborhood?

I can can imagine with the scenario you have painted the police force is not going to send in Mayberry RFD when their is a problem. They would be eaten alive in five minutes.The sad but true issue your post neglects is that if I make such a call should I see something like this happening - if I am illegally assaulted by the police - this isn't going to help the person with the issue I called about in the first place, now is it? Why the automatic assumption that calling the police will de-escalate a situation or make things better in some way? This is not always the case in low income neighborhoods, and no, there is no way America can ever apologize either to myself or to my neighbors enough for this reality. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Something this thread has really done for me - and yikes, I had no idea it was going to get this long lol - other than draining me a bit - has been to solidify further for me my view that America all boils down to social class. Life has taught me that life in America - and I'm going to hazard to guess some other Western countries, too - what you experience has a lot to do with where you find yourself in the class structure and life in the US certainly is not standardized across the board for all citizens - the concept of how many "rights" you have really does have something to do with where you stand in the hierarchy. I am very grateful I undertstand this as there are people falling out of the middle class every day who are meeting this reality head on and I accepted it and moved on by the age of 15. This has nothing to do with intelligence - it's just that this reality was in my face far too often to deny it. Something else to be grateful for. Rob

[LDAHL]

In my life, I have experienced some failures and some successes. I can't help thinking that if i had decided at an early age that all my failures were due to my imagined "social class" rather than my lack of effort, preparation or luck, there would not have been much in the way of success.

[gimmethesimplelife]

In my life, I have experienced some failures and some successes. I can't help thinking that if i had decided at an early age that all my failures were due to my imagined "social class" rather than my lack of effort, preparation or luck, there would not have been much in the way of success.I have had some successes and failures, too. Like anyone else. I have never forgotten what America taught me when I was young, though. May I never forget. Though I doubt in my case I ever will. And even when I have experienced some success in my life, I (for the most part) never forgot what America taught me when I was young..... I do wish I have saved more money while I was making good money though and for that I only have myself to blame. But the basics? Never forgot them. Rob

[Yossarian]

In my life, I have experienced some failures and some successes. I can't help thinking that if i had decided at an early age that all my failures were due to my imagined "social class" rather than my lack of effort, preparation or luck, there would not have been much in the way of success.

It's much easier to just claim you are a victim. It absolves you of any resposnibility for yourself or others.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It's much easier to just claim you are a victim. It absolves you of any resposnibility for yourself or others.I never said I was a victim. I only call things as they are.....just because I call the police for what they can be in my neighborhood, that does not make me a victim. Did I not go on at some length as to how the neighbors are getting cheap smart phones to equip themselves against illegal police assaults? Of course, this can't stop illegal police behavior but it can be very helpful in gunning for top dollar and in getting richly deserved publicity against the police. This is not the line of thinking victims take.....this is victor behavior, not victim behavior. I would agree that it's sad that America has slid to the point that such is necessary but it's our job to protect ourselves against America.....and hopefully change it for the better via huge lawsuit settlements and international publicity via social media. Certainly my neighbors and I did not make America morph into something so horrible - we are just taking sane steps to protect ourselves against it is all. Rob

[Yossarian]

I only call things as they are

Mmm, not so much. But whatever, life goes on.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Mmm, not so much. But whatever, life goes on.I'm really making an honest effort to understand your comment here. Really. Given that I have seen police brutality up close and personal as I've gone on and on about like a broken record by this point - is it wrong to take the stance I do in regards to the police and in regards to protecting myself against them via smartphone, and to be part of a neighborhood drive to encourage others to do the same? This is wrong because ? Verbalizing my experience witnessing police brutality is wrong because ? Feeling closeness and sympathy for my neighbors as they are more likely to be illegally assaulted by the police then I am because they are mostly Hispanic is wrong because ? Your comment leaves much unanswered and leaves numerous questions strewn about - at least for me it does. Rob

[Songbird]

I have been thinking about your response when you posted even if a young woman was being gang raped or an elderly man was being beaten and robbed, you would not call 911.

I have to say that I can't even begin to fathom this way of thinking - not making a simple phone call to get help for someone that was suffering and possibly being murdered. I think it's inhuman not to do so....

Rob, I've had some bad experiences with the police in my lifetime, directly affecting my family when I was a kid. But I've also seen cops do some amazing heroic things. They lay their lives on the line everyday in their profession. I have utmost respect for most of them and fear some of them as well, so I do understand some of your issues with them. But not making a simple 911 call for someone that needs urgent help is just WRONG as a human being!! You don't even have to be there when the cops and paramedics arrive, just simply get the person some HELP....

[gimmethesimplelife]

I have to say that I can't even begin to fathom this way of thinking - not making a simple phone call to get help for someone that was suffering and possibly being murdered. I think it's inhuman not to do so....

Rob, I've had some bad experiences with the police in my lifetime, directly affecting my family when I was a kid. But I've also seen cops do some amazing heroic things. They lay their lives on the line everyday in their profession. I have utmost respect for most of them and fear some of them as well, so I do understand some of your issues with them. But not making a simple 911 call for someone that needs urgent help is just WRONG as a human being!! You don't even have to be there when the cops and paramedics arrive, just simply get the person some HELP....I'm not an inhumane person. I do struggle with this. I find it very difficult to live in a country where realistically I am taking a risk making such a call to the police to help someone - I am putting my health and well being on the line as there is no way of knowing if I am going to get a decent cop or if I am going to get power tripping trash. And as you have seen here in this miles long thread there sure is a lot of denial and or acceptance and or pretending it's not happening or at least this doesn't happen in my neighborhood going on - how do I forgive America for the risk making such a call places me at ? How on earth as an adult am I ever supposed to forgive such a thing ? You can perhaps see why I have such problems living in this country when faced with such issues constantly. Though I will say that it's not quite as bad as it used to be - at least now there is access in some states to health care via Medicaid expansion - imagine lack of access to health care coupled with fear of police brutality - really, for some of it's citizens/legal residents, America is no great prize and I rather think that those who sacrificed in World War 2 (and other wars) would be ashamed if they saw what things had deteriorated to. Perhaps this is why I have continued on with this thread so - I am a bit of breath of fresh air around here as I am the one voice here for those who knows this America, who know this reality. Given that I feel nothing for America at this point I don't mind being a voice for the disenfranchised. Here I can change nothing on this thread, that much is true, but at least someone out there has been exposed to a voice that runs counter to what they hear everyday and what society says. At least I have done that much on this thread.

For those of you who think so highly of the police - please answer me this if you would. How do I realistically forgive America for putting me in a position whereby calling the police to come to the aid of someone else places me at risk for illegal attack/assault on the part of the police? How does one realistically forgive America for this risk and why am I supposed to just accept it and pretend it's not there - why is America worth this denial? For those who spring so quickly to the defense of the police, imagine living with such questions that pretty much will never go away unless leaving America permanently - even if I were to move to a better area where I'd be at much less risk of the police, I would still know this fear, it will never go away without leaving America. Heavy stuff but very true. The next time you say something or think something nice about the police, remember me and my neighborhood full of people who are afraid of the police - certainly they are best avoided at all costs has been my experience, and I have America to thank for this. At least I'm not in denial and I am speaking the truth of lower income America. Rob

[iris lilies]

...I'm not an inhumane person... I do struggle... I find it very difficult... I am taking a risk... I am putting my health and well being on the line as there is no way of knowing if I am going to get a decent cop or if I am going to get power tripping trash.

...how do I forgive America ...How am I ever... I have such problems living in this country...

But buddy, in this theoretical situation where a girl is being raped, it's not about you.

Theoretical situations aren't very interesting to me in use for argument, but in this one it would be easy to hide behind your door, close the curtains, and call the cops anonymously. Why this is putting your "health and well being on the line" is impossible for me to understand. I would argue that ethically in this situation if you don't call police, you have a moral obligation to go out and pull off the attacker and keep him from further harming her. Or why don't you go flash a smart phone at them? Hey, that'll teach 'em.

In reality, by the time cops get there, the girl will have been brutalized anyway, so she's in a lose/lose situation.

[gimmethesimplelife]

But buddy, in this theoretical situation where a girl is being raped, it's not about you.

Theoretical situations aren't very interesting to me in use for argument, but in this one it would be easy to hide behind your door, close the curtains, and call the cops anonymously. Why this is putting your "health and well being on the line" is impossible for me to understand. I would argue that ethically in this situation if you don't call police, you have a moral obligation to go out and pull off the attacker and keep him from further harming her. Or why don't you go flash a smart phone at them? Hey, that'll teach 'em.

In reality, by the time cops get there, the girl will have been brutalized anyway, so she's in a lose/lose situation.Other than the experience witnessing police brutality next door to me I have referenced repeatedly, in another thread recently I highlighted a negative experience I had with the police last year in Utah. I will summarize this experience once again IL, and maybe you can understand why I am so afraid of American police.

Last year I accepted a position waiting tables at a lodge near the Flaming Gorge Resort Area of far NE Utah. I was there for a few days and doing well when I had a panic attack on the floor - this is something I had never experienced. Two other servers were nearby in the employee housing and were also trained EMT's - they came over to the restaurant, got me off the floor, and took my BP and pulse, both of which were sky high. They ended out calling an ambulance and the sheriff's office and a hospital in Rock Springs, Wyoming - the closest hospital. The doctor on the phone in Wyoming wanted me to come in via ambulance as my BP and pulse were scary high and I refused as I did not have insurance at the time and THE SHERIFF THREATENED TO TASER AND ARREST ME for my refusal. I ended out crying as I was so frustrated - terrified of my citizenship in action right in front of me, terrified of bankruptcy, terrified of the panic attack which was only getting worse due to all these outside issues - anyway, my pulse and BP went down and the doctor ended out saying I didn't have to come in to the hospital due to this so I dodged a huge bullet. And I'm glad.

Now, my question is - how do I ever forgive America for the sheriff threatening to taser and arrest me? And force me into bankruptcy? I am unable to pretend this didn't happen and I am unable to forgive America for this - this is inexcusable. Here I am in Utah, working, and being productive in society and doing nothing wrong when I am made vulnerable to both my citizenship and the police and how few rights I truly have as an American citizen - I will never be able to interact with the police again after this - I don't even want a pleasant interaction. I'd rather never deal with them again and certainly at this late date I will never be able to trust them again. That is no longer possible now.

Point of all this - I've done no wrong in any of my interactions with the police and I've been pushed into active terror of them through no fault of my own.

PERHAPS THAT FINGER SHOULD BE TURNED AROUND AND POINTED TOWARDS THE POLICE FOR ONCE and not towards me, hmmmm? Just sayin'. Have such experiences with the police through no fault of your own and see how you feel about them then is my suggestion. Then I can realistically talk about the police on equal footing with someone else.....Before this happened, I'm not sure I would have believed it, either.....now, morally and ethically I can't have anything to do with the police as some of them are morally corrupt agents of evil as far as I am concerned. And that's being nice on my part, giving them too much credit. Rob

[iris lilies]

...I will never be able to interact with the police again after this - I don't even want a pleasant interaction. I'd rather never deal with them again...

In the theoretical situation named above:
Surely you can see that a phone call to a dispatcher isn't the same as face to face encounter with the evil police man.

Or maybe not.

[gimmethesimplelife]

In the theoretical situation named above:
Surely you can see that a phone call to a dispatcher isn't the same as face to face encounter with the evil police man.

Or maybe not.I'd vote for maybe not. As I have explained above, due to these negative experiences with the police through no fault of my own, I have nothing towards them but fear. This will never go away at this late date. Thanks to them, and not me as I have done nothing to warrant this - I am afraid to even pick up the phone and call a dispatcher. Yes. True. I'd thank America for that as this is where the blame belongs and not on me as I have done no wrong that lead to this reaction on my part - it's all on the police in this case. For once someone might want to look at their part and not blame one of the many who have legitimate reasons to fear them. Rob

[dmc]

Rob, you really need to talk with a shrink about this. Your way over the top on this.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, you really need to talk with a shrink about this. Your way over the top on this.Hmmmm.....I wonder what your take would be had you had these experiences with the police that I have had? Witnessing police brutality right next door to you? And then at a later date being threatened with taser and arrest due to not wanting to face bankruptcy via being brought to a hospital against your will back when I did not have insurance last year?

See why I have such issues with America and living here? dmc, you don't address the true and honest issues I have brought up but rather point that finger right back at me and find fault with me somehow, saying I might want to see a shrink.....but you don't address the issues behind my beefs with American police. And don't feel singled out - this in my experience is how Americans tend to be - why would I want to citizenship of a country in which such is going to be the dominant reaction to legitimate issues? What kind of hope or joy or meaning can there be in such a country where such statements as yours above are commonplace and real issues are not worth the time of day? Rob

[dmc]

It to bad your neighbors got ruffed up, I wasn't there and don't have any of the facts. And did the police actually do anything to you? They can say anything to try and get you to comply, were they not trying to get you to do what the doctor wanted? If they were really evil they would have just taken you out back and shot you. Instead they were trying to get you to a doctor, the bastards.

And if I was truly worried about my health, bankruptcy is not what I would be worrying about at the time. Get me to an emergency room.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well I don't think the thread has been about real issues for awhile. Police brutality in this country is a plenty real issue (though I doubt anyone will be converted), but whether or not some police brutality from calling the cops is worth the risk in a case of rape is a time when I think many of those who are plenty critical of the police would consider it. HOWEVER there is a decent chance I wouldn't have a cellphone on me ....

[gimmethesimplelife]

It to bad your neighbors got ruffed up, I wasn't there and don't have any of the facts. And did the police actually do anything to you? They can say anything to try and get you to comply, were they not trying to get you to do what the doctor wanted? If they were really evil they would have just taken you out back and shot you. Instead they were trying to get you to a doctor, the bastards.

And if I was truly worried about my health, bankruptcy is not what I would be worrying about at the time. Get me to an emergency room.It's not OK to threaten me with taser and arrest for refusing to go to the hospital, dmc. This is completely unacceptable - it is very much the action of a police state. I will never forgive America for this. Ever. How could I? How could anyone? I will say that after the doctor in Wyoming said that I didn't have to come in to the hospital due to my BP and pulse going down, the sheriff left without a word as did the ambulance. But the scars will never go away. You don't threatened someone with taser, arrest and bankruptcy.....not in a country where at the time my life was not worth access to health care without bankruptcy. (though this still holds true in Utah for the next victims of the Daggett County Sheriff's Office as Utah has not expanded Medicaid to date.....) Dmc maybe in your line of thinking this all is acceptable, in mine, it's not. You get to see things your way but don't expect me to ever trust the police again and to feel anything but fear of them and all they stand for. Though one thing I can say as to my part - what I can do is to boycott any state that has not expanded Medicaid, to not waste my time with such states. That won't change anything, I understand that, but it is what little I can realistically do. Rob

[dmc]

Police brutality is wrong, no one is saying otherwise. But most everyone has a cell phone these days and there are plenty like Rob who are going to make sure the cops are all on tape. I don't have a problem with that. But to say all cops are bad because of a few is just wrong. They are putting their very lives on the line and should be given some respect.

Rob, I really think you should talk to someone about your issues, how would it hurt?

[dmc]

It's not OK to threaten me with taser and arrest for refusing to go to the hospital, dmc. This is completely unacceptable - it is very much the action of a police state. I will never forgive America for this. Ever. How could I? How could anyone? I will say that after the doctor in Wyoming said that I didn't have to come in to the hospital due to my BP and pulse going down, the sheriff left without a word as did the ambulance. But the scars will never go away. You don't threatened someone with taser, arrest and bankruptcy.....not in a country where at the time my life was not worth access to health care without bankruptcy. (though this still holds true in Utah for the next victims of the Daggett County Sheriff's Office as Utah has not expanded Medicaid to date.....) Dmc maybe in your line of thinking this all is acceptable, in mine, it's not. You get to see things your way but don't expect me to ever trust the police again and to feel anything but fear of them and all they stand for. Though one thing I can say as to my part - what I can do is to boycott any state that has not expanded Medicaid, to not waste my time with such states. That won't change anything, I understand that, but it is what little I can realistically do. Rob

Why would you fear bankruptcy? If you make so little as to be on Medicaid what would they take?

So after it was determined that you were all right the police and ambulance left. They didn't actually do anything to you except try and get you to follow a doctors order.

[dmc]

And who do you think is this "America" who you expect to take care of you actually is?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Why would you fear bankruptcy? If you make so little as to be on Medicaid what would they take?

So after it was determined that you were all right the police and ambulance left. They didn't actually do anything to you except try and get you to follow a doctors order.Dmc, this happened in May of 2013, before Medicaid was expanded. Additionally, Utah has not to date expanded Medicaid anyway and I would not have qualified for Medicaid in Utah as a childless male. Hence, bankruptcy when confronted with medical bills. And if they want me to follow a doctor's order, threatening me as a law abiding citizen with taser and arrest is not going to win compliance - this is going to win permanent fear of America and all that it stands for and permanent non-allegiance. Yes, I take basic human rights that seriously......Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

And who do you think is this "America" who you expect to take care of you actually is?Taxpaying society as a whole, dmc, and had I not had to leave Utah due to my panic attacks, my income would have been high enough for those seven months of work that I would have paid into the system instead of just taking out of it and I would not have had any problems with paying in as I have indeed taken out. Rob

[bae]

Last year I accepted a position waiting tables at a lodge near the Flaming Gorge Resort Area of far NE Utah. I was there for a few days and doing well when I had a panic attack on the floor - this is something I had never experienced. Two other servers were nearby in the employee housing and were also trained EMT's - they came over to the restaurant, got me off the floor, and took my BP and pulse, both of which were sky high. They ended out calling an ambulance and the sheriff's office and a hospital in Rock Springs, Wyoming - the closest hospital. The doctor on the phone in Wyoming wanted me to come in via ambulance as my BP and pulse were scary high and I refused as I did not have insurance at the time and THE SHERIFF THREATENED TO TASER AND ARREST ME for my refusal.

So, after 80+ pages, this ...incredible...account emerges.

Rob - nobody is going to taser and arrest you *simply* for refusing transport for BP/pulse issues. There is no legal basis for doing so, and you would indeed win a cripplingly huge lawsuit if that was all that was going on. (I have sitting in my clipboard at the very top of the forms a "no transport" form that is our second-most-commonly-used piece of paper.)

So, my deduction is that you either ran across a completely insane and inept law enforcement officer, or that perhaps there is more to the story than you know, recall, or relate. Were you perhaps agitated and acting...oddly....towards the officer and the medical responders?

I run on calls like this every week. If the paramedic or doctor judges that the patient is a danger to himself or others, we will *forcefully* effect transport, and it will not be done with tasers generally. Law enforcement has much more limited ability to restrain and move you than paramedic/rescue agencies... I'll tell you what happens - several large firefighters/medics grab you, then we apply pharmacologic restraints, then into the ambulance and off you go to the psych ward or the detox center...

Based on your statements in this thread, and others, I really think you need to see somebody about your anxiety.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Why would you fear bankruptcy? If you make so little as to be on Medicaid what would they take?

So after it was determined that you were all right the police and ambulance left. They didn't actually do anything to you except try and get you to follow a doctors order.What this sheriff has in fact done is to solidify for the rest of my life whether I stay here or not - I will always assume the worst of America after having seen it so close up for what it is. I will never really trust it going forward. All this for the police feeling they were above the law as far as attacking my neighbors and for threatening me with taser, arrest, and bankruptcy through no fault of my own - after these experiences, how thrilled would you be with holding US citizenship, and might you be comparison shopping other countries in the coldest of blood? To me such is only logical and practical. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

So, after 80+ pages, this ...incredible...account emerges.

Rob - nobody is going to taser and arrest you *simply* for refusing transport for BP/pulse issues. There is no legal basis for doing so, and you would indeed win a cripplingly huge lawsuit if that was all that was going on. (I have sitting in my clipboard at the very top of the forms a "no transport" form that is our second-most-commonly-used piece of paper.)

So, my deduction is that you either ran across a completely insane and inept law enforcement officer, or that perhaps there is more to the story than you know, recall, or relate. Were you perhaps agitated and acting...oddly....towards the officer and the medical responders?

I run on calls like this every week. If the paramedic or doctor judges that the patient is a danger to himself or others, we will *forcefully* effect transport, and it will not be done with tasers generally. Law enforcement has much more limited ability to restrain and move you than paramedic/rescue agencies... I'll tell you what happens - several large firefighters/medics grab you, then we apply pharmacologic restraints, then into the ambulance and off you go to the psych ward or the detox center...

Based on your statements in this thread, and others, I really think you need to see somebody about your anxiety.And see, this is why I dislike America so so so much. One big reason, Bae. This really did happen. Out in rural Utah. And yes, I was threatened with taser and arrest by the sheriff of Daggett County, Utah. And no, there was no legal basis for doing so and I have been terrified of this country ever since. How could I not be? Seriously? Please answer me this. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

So, after 80+ pages, this ...incredible...account emerges.

Rob - nobody is going to taser and arrest you *simply* for refusing transport for BP/pulse issues. There is no legal basis for doing so, and you would indeed win a cripplingly huge lawsuit if that was all that was going on. (I have sitting in my clipboard at the very top of the forms a "no transport" form that is our second-most-commonly-used piece of paper.)

So, my deduction is that you either ran across a completely insane and inept law enforcement officer, or that perhaps there is more to the story than you know, recall, or relate. Were you perhaps agitated and acting...oddly....towards the officer and the medical responders?

I run on calls like this every week. If the paramedic or doctor judges that the patient is a danger to himself or others, we will *forcefully* effect transport, and it will not be done with tasers generally. Law enforcement has much more limited ability to restrain and move you than paramedic/rescue agencies... I'll tell you what happens - several large firefighters/medics grab you, then we apply pharmacologic restraints, then into the ambulance and off you go to the psych ward or the detox center...

Based on your statements in this thread, and others, I really think you need to see somebody about your anxiety.I don't think the officer was insane, and I don't believe he was inept, either. I got the feeling that this was how the old boy's network in rural Utah handles things and that they were used to breaking the law and getting away with doing so. I'm glad to hear that's not how you handle things, Bae, I do respect you for this much. Rob

PS I did go to a walk in clinic to see a doctor in Vernal, Utah, right after this happened - Vernal is the closest town to where I was and it was my point for making connections to get home to Phoenix. The nurse there told me how I'd been handled was illegal but that she was not surprised since it took place in Daggett County - apparently (?) this county has a reputation as being a bit strange with it's law enforcement. I didn't pry for more as I was so glad to be out of the place, in one piece and not illegally arrested. All I wanted was to flee after seeing a doctor. One thing I will say, though - I won't just take any job any more out in the middle of nowhere without doing a lot of research in advance. I'm not even sure I should be going that rural to begin with - it seems as if making myself more vulnerable to the downside risk of this citizenship. Rob

[bae]

... I have been terrified of this country ever since. How could I not be? Seriously? Please answer me this. Rob

Seriously? Talk to a therapist.

[bae]

I'm glad to hear that's not how you handle things, Bae, I do respect you for this much. Rob

Rob - nobody handles things that way, unless they are insane. I've worked in really really bad places before, and what you describe does not happen generally, *unless there is more to the story*. You can reason out why if you put your mind to it.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob - nobody handles things that way, unless they are insane. I've worked in really really bad places before, and what you describe does not happen generally, *unless there is more to the story*. You can reason out why if you put your mind to it.This is how things took place, Bae. I don't know what else to tell you. All I can say is that I sure will never see America the same way again - it even ruined seasonal work in the sticks for me. I guess the good thing here though is now something horrible can happen and I'm the one person who won't be at all surprised.....such as Ferguson to get back to this thread. I'm amazed that cauldron there simmered and brewed as long as it did before erupting - this truly does surprise me. Rob

PS Something I don't believe you are grasping here, Bae - those who are reputed to be the "good guys" by society? Are sometimes the people you need to be the most afraid of. Ironically, I do thank America for teaching me this and I only wish I would have learned this one younger.....it doesn't say much for me growing up as I did that I didn't. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Seriously? Talk to a therapist.Ummmm.....how about the police behave in accordance with the law? Too much to ask for, Bae? How about pointing the fingers back at law enforcement and having the courage to question them for just one split second? I have faith you can do this if you try.....Rob

[Alan]

I do thank America for teaching me this and I only wish I would have learned this one younger.....it doesn't say much for me growing up as I did that I didn't. RobI thought you'd told us dozens and dozens of times that you learned to hate America and those you deemed to be "upper classes" by the time you were 13.

Seriously, I think it's past time to take a break from this thread. An emotional rant as long as this one can't be good for anyone.

[bae]

Rob - I have never argued that all police are good, or even that they should be given the benefit of the doubt. I have simply suggested that we follow the law, and examine the facts.

As to "grasping" things - I have lived and worked in places that I suspect would cause you, Rob, to curl up in a little ball in the back of your clothes closet whimpering for your mommy I have seen first hand violence by government actors that would sicken your soul. I have seen private individuals engaged in truly horrific behavior. Yet I don't fear going out in the world, or interacting with other people, because I do not judge all people of a certain profession, culture, race, language group, sex, nationality, or whatnot, by the actions of the deranged.

[bae]

Ummmm.....how about the police behave in accordance with the law? Too much to ask for, Bae? How about pointing the fingers back at law enforcement and having the courage to question them for just one split second? I have faith you can do this if you try.....Rob

Rob -

I have testified in open court against police officers in cases involving use of force. So don't question my courage, laddie.

[LDAHL]

I thought you'd told us dozens and dozens of times that you learned to hate America and those you deemed to be "upper classes" by the time you were 13.

Seriously, I think it's time to take a break from this thread. One rant as long as this one can't be good for anyone.

I agree. we've gone from concern for Iris Lilies to a twisted version of the last episode of Seinfeld.

Who was it said that history starts as tragedy and ends as farce?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I thought you'd told us dozens and dozens of times that you learned to hate America and those you deemed to be "upper classes" by the time you were 13.

Seriously, I think it's past time to take a break from this thread. An emotional rant as long as this one can't be good for anyone.I didn't learn this about the police until I was older. But I agree that taking a breather here is a good idea.....as others have said, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here. Or vice-versa. Rob

[Packy]

Okay, it's still going on, isn't it? GimmeeTSL vs Everyone. I ain't gonna argue the point here--just have a couple of stories to share that are relevant and that's it. Okay, I made my weekly trip into the locally-owned bent n' dent that handles overstocks, outdated stuff, and whatever, culled from several warehouses in town. The employees there--they've worked there for years and years. Anyway, there was this individual wandering around in there, looking around, a very tall black guy in his 40's. He was mumbling to himself about the time I crossed paths with him, and one of the stock clerks, a smallish white lady in her 50's asked him if he needed any assistance in finding anything. Well, sometimes I've got to ask them, because the place is chock full of stuff. Anyway, this guy started kind of a rant, not in a loud voice, kind of directed at the stock clerk. The guy headed for the door, kind of in a rant as he went. Apparently, he said something that she did not like, and she went out there, held the door open, and told him not to come back again, or they would call the po-lice. She let the door shut outside, and I commented to the cashier that I felt that other lady was taking a risk in confronting that guy, and she agreed. The guy got on his bike, which was one of those cheapy "beach cruisers" that you see the indigent types riding. Anyway he left, and I am glad he did. A couple years ago, in the same place, there was a guy, a 30-ish black male asking for gas money---said he was parked at a gas station, stranded. So, I gave him a few dollars on the condition that he head on out of there, right away. Which he did. Don't mind helping someone out, if they aren't making begging a vocation. See? Today, while in the store, the local newspaper headlines announced a $770,000 settlement to be paid out to a suspect who ran from the police, when the officer(an eleven year veteran)attempted to take him into custody for outstanding warrants in front of a grocery store, where he was panhandling, over on the east side of town. The suspect was a 20-ish white male, who had numerous arrests for burglary and theft, and a history of mental disease. But, the cop played the game wrong, and in the chase that ensued got over-aroused and shot the guy in the far lower back. The kid did survive, and his attorney says he incurred more than $200,000 in hospital bills. So, the city negotiated an out of court settlement, in which 1)The taxpayers(not an insurer)will pay out the 770,000., and 2)The cop resigns, pleads guilty to an assault charge with a suspended sentence, and the condition that he not hold another law-enforcement job. My opinion is, the cop definitely shouldn't have shot the stupid kid, and the stupid kid shouldna run. The settlement was fair, except that the kid shouldn't profit financially from a situation for which he bears some culpability. It wasn't just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, the cop is fired, punished within reason, and that is good. Don't need trigger-happy cops. The kid still has to go to court for being a no-show on one of his burglary charges. If Justice prevails, the judge will sentence the young punk to prison(since he's a repeat offender), and then order him to reimburse the state for the cost of his trial and incarceration, thus negating his ill-gotten gain. I have no problem with the public paying for his hospital stay, even though the amount was outrageous. Of course, the shyster--er--attorney will no doubt get HIS share, won't he? This is kind of an unusual outcome for this town, as I stated previously in this thread, but since the incident occurred just this May, and the settlement was announced very recently, it makes me think that the Ferguson Case and the Albequerque case, and several other highly-publicized police shootings around the nation, may have influenced it. Discuss amongst yourselves.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Packy, with all due respect I am bowing out of this thread. I have nothing new to add and to participate at this point in my case would be to be playing a broken record. I will also skip participating when news arrives if there is an indictment or not as everyone here by now knows my stance as to this and I have no surprises to offer on this one. Pretty much I've covered this one over and over and up and down and all around - time to bail. Rob

[Packy]

Packy, with all due respect I am bowing out of this thread. I have nothing new to add and to participate at this point in my case would be to be playing a broken record. I will also skip participating when news arrives if there is an indictment or not as everyone here by now knows my stance as to this and I have no surprises to offer on this one. Pretty much I've covered this one over and over and up and down and all around - time to bail. Rob Well, Rob; I was taking a survey of "those people" and developed a consensus view. It's like that tired old song they've played on classick rock radio far, far too many times--Hotel California---the stupid lyric about how "you can check out any time you like--but you can never leave". What I'm saying is, You cannot just take a position, defend it vigorously and persistently for 86 Pages,, and then just abandon it, like the Japanese did with Attu(or was it Kiska), in the Aleutians! Noooo,waaaay-- you got to stand your ground, stay with it, and fight it to the death. Just like General Custer. See?

[Tradd]

Packy , paragraphs are your friend... ;)

[Packy]

Tradd, Pizza, extra large, with pepperoni & sausage, piled high with extra ooooey-goooey mozzzzzerrrellla Cheeeeeese, is your friend. Do you have any of those coupons that usually come in the mail, that maybe give you a real deal on Pizza from Papa Scarpozzzos' pizza, that you could redeem? Satisfying your cravings would take your mind off of paragraphs--not enough paragraphs or too many. Go for it, and stop the obsessing. See? My paragraphs are 100% correct. In fact, the last English Composition professor I had praised me for my paragraphs. Are you an English Composition professor? Highly doubtful--you'd have a life, and not be here. Thanks. Hope that helps you some.

[Packy]

Well, the latest headline on my Rabble-Rousing Internet News Network says the Ferguson P.D. is axing for a Bail-out fum the St. Louis Sheriffs' Department. The article makes it sound as if they are overwhelmed. Well, who wouldn't be? Anyone, anyone at all: Please volunteer an opinion, here! Need to keep this thread going. Just like that old moooovveee with Hanoi Jane, "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?" Thanks.

[Packy]

Well, they did it, again! I'll tell you what--The city o' St Louis is not, in no way, SAFE for a black man! He can't even walk down the STREET, minding his own business, without a cop shooting at him! I suppose it's time fo' a 'nother protess.

[Packy]

Well, they did it, again! I'll tell you what--The city o' St Louis is not SAFE for a black man! He can't even walk down the STREET, minding his own business, without a cop shooting at him! I suppose it's time fo' a 'nother protess.Oh, Packy, GROW UP! Your Trollish behavior is beyond belief! Before you jump to ANY conclusions, you need to wait for due process. Justice will prevail, I assure you. So, be chillin', man.

[Tradd]

Where's Rob?

[Yossarian]

Where's Rob?

Out sharpening his pitchfork.

[Tradd]

I'm listening to the MO State Highway Patrol scanner feed, the live feed from a protestor, and a helicopter feed from a local TV station.

Shots fired in front of Ferguson FD & PD
Walgreens looted and on fire
McDonald's on fire?
Liquor store looted
2 cell phone stores looted
Hair salon looted
1 bank looted (not confirmed)
Toys R Us looted
At least 1 cop car on fire
Numerous other reports of shots fired

Protestors tear gassed when they would not move out of the street (good number of them)

Police told to retreat for their own safety in one location

[iris lilies]

On a brighter note, I fully expected to hear gunshots from the Projects a couple blocks away. But so far--nothing. Still, I won't be poking my head out.

[Tradd]

Two dollars stores looted
Little Caesar's on fire

IL, glad to hear your hood is OK.

If you're interested:

MO State Highway Patrol scanner feed:
http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/17925/web

KMOV helicopter feed:
http://www.kmov.com/home/related/KMOV-UStream-Account-283085951.html

The live stream feed of a protestor:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri

I'm listening to the scanner feed with the sounds on the others down.

Now three buildings on fire (in a row it seems) with molotov cocktails being thrown on the roof of at least 1 or 2.

[Packy]

Prottessers beez blockin' I-44, so traffic is stopped. That, will surely help their cause gain support....

[Tradd]

http://fox2now.com/on-air/live-streaming-2/

This shows the I-44 mess.

[Tradd]

Protests in LA, Chicago.

[Packy]

I just thought I'd mention that the Ferguson Protessers set fire to a "Little Caesars Pizza" store, among other things. The Caesars chain is based in Michigan, an' serves Dee-troit-Style Pizza.

[dmc]

It's the Democrats fault. Democrat Govenor, Procecutor, AG, and President. And I bet the neighborhood votes democrat also.

I wonder if if the store owners will be able to sue anyone for their losses?

I guess Rob is running around at his local protest/riot site with his camera phone looking for a lawsuit. I'm amazed that the police haven't opened fire on the rioters/looters yet.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It's the Democrats fault. Democrat Govenor, Procecutor, AG, and President. And I bet the neighborhood votes democrat also.

it was pretty conclusively shown that the people weren't voting period for the most part in Ferguson, it was all over the news (in fact it was even mentioned in this thread). But maybe the 5% that voted voted Democratic or something ... so let's all call it a democracy.


I'm amazed that the police haven't opened fire on the rioters/looters yet.

looks bad for the optics when you are trying to say you are better than the average police state. Granted almost noone really believes that anymore, but it might force more countries to act on that disbelief.

[dmc]

I guess we could just go to mob rule. Let the mob burn and loot to their hearts content. That's what they are doing anyway. I like how the media portrays the looters and vandals as protestors. The police are just letting the animals run wild at this point, I guess it doesn't matter much as long as they contain the damage to Furgeson. No one is going to rebuild there after the looting and burning anyway.

im so glad I moved away from that area, even though I lived 30 miles away in St. Charles Co, I sometimes found myself driving thru the north suburbs.

Be careful Iris, the good news is you will be able to pick up a century home in Furgeson cheap, the bad news is most will just fall into ruin as no one with the money to take care of one will want to live there.

[CathyA]

I was curious what time of day they would announce it. I was thinking sunrise would have been good, for all the light. But then I realized they didn't want all the innocents in the way........the shop-owners, people shopping, etc.......which is probably why they waited until nighttime.
I figured this was going to be the verdict, since all these precautions were taken.
I just don't understand ruining your own community, burning down businesses, etc.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It's the Democrats fault. Democrat Govenor, Procecutor, AG, and President. And I bet the neighborhood votes democrat also.

I wonder if if the store owners will be able to sue anyone for their losses?

I guess Rob is running around at his local protest/riot site with his camera phone looking for a lawsuit. I'm amazed that the police haven't opened fire on the rioters/looters yet.Iris Lillies, please. Remember how I ended my participation in this thread? I said I wasn't going to come back and comment even if there was no indictment. I'm only coming back now to state that I'm bowing out - in over sixty pages I have made my stance on all of this crystal clear and I really don't have anything new to add from here on out. Rob

Came back to say I was rushed when I typed my posts this morning and I was responding to DMC here and not Iris Lillies. Apologies to IL, nothing intended here, and I shouldn't have been so sloppy. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Where's Rob?Tradd, with all due respect, I have nothing new to add to this thread after sixty plus pages and I'm only here to state that I'm bowing out of this thread as I've made my stance crystal clear. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Out sharpening his pitchfork.No, I'm not. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

On a brighter note, I fully expected to hear gunshots from the Projects a couple blocks away. But so far--nothing. Still, I won't be poking my head out.Although we often disagree, I wish you safety, IL. Please be safe. I don't know what things are like out your way as I have been caught up in some family drama and have actually not kept up with anything since the reading of the verdict. If it's dicey, I'm hoping you have some food stashed away and any other things you need for at least a few days. Though we don't agree on this one much at all I still wish you safety and peace. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

It's the Democrats fault. Democrat Govenor, Procecutor, AG, and President. And I bet the neighborhood votes democrat also.

I wonder if if the store owners will be able to sue anyone for their losses?

I guess Rob is running around at his local protest/riot site with his camera phone looking for a lawsuit. I'm amazed that the police haven't opened fire on the rioters/looters yet.No....No I am not doing what you have stated. Nope. I'm not even up with the latest developments due to long distance family drama. All I know at this point is the verdict and what little I have read in this thread. Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

it is difficult for me to Understand how looting and burning down small businesses in your community will do anyone any good. Stay safe people who live near the violence.

[Packy]

it is difficult for me to Understand how looting and burning down small businesses in your community will do anyone any good. Stay safe people who live near the violence. Well, I figure it is just like the people out in Cally-fornya who knowingly build a luxuriously funky Dream Home on the side of a cliff in the middle of the chaparral; or affluent residents living on the Coast of Florida, armpit of America. When Mother Nature reclaims the land, via heavy rains, strong winds, mudslides, forest fires, earthquakes, etc., the People figure hey--guess we better consult a contractor, 'cause we're getting a nice NEW Dream Home! Ferguson will be rebuilt, better than it was before. The corporations that own the stores in riot-torn Ferguson will just consider it the cost of doing business, and raise prices in all of the stores in their chain by an almost imperceptible amount, to cover their losses. IOW, you and I will pay for it. Just for the record, I am concerned about police brutality, too. But, those people chose the wrong case to make into a cause celebre', and rioting and looting further diminished the legitimacy of the movement. Probably did more harm than good. Well, didn't it? If I were quick to believe in conspiracies, I would say that the civil disturbances in in the aftermath of the shooting were caused by outside agitators who were intentionally trying to provoke outrage and a reaction by the general public, in support of the police. Public support for the police riot and crisis response teams will increase EVERYWHERE, and so will the Rule Of Authoritarian Law. See? Conspiracy theories have been proposed around such incidents as the Sandy Hook School massacre, or the Waco incident and the OKC bombing, that suggest nearly the same things. Not saying that they are true; but I do believe that the net effect is that the tragedies have served to polarize people, politically, and to promote fear. The outcome is that whether you consider yourself "Liberal" or "Conservative"( the polar opposites, right?), chances are you will now be willing to trade some freedom for personal safety and security. See? As I said before, more harm than good. Hope that helps you some.

[catherine]

Rob, hope all is well with your family stuff.

[iris lilies]

Today I drove through the area of the city that's being targeted for protests today. It's about 2 miles from me (it's not Ferguson!) It's where another black teen was shot by a policeman a few weeks after Mike Brown incident.

This is a great business district full of international restaurants. Many of them were proactively boarding up their windows, expecting violence tonight. It was actually a very amazing, and fun sight to see lots of young people out. They were all painting "OPEN" in big letters and were adding artistic decorations to the plywood. One of the signs at the notoriously hippie South City Diner said "Why? Because we Need Our Jobs!" Things looked good all along the 4 -5 blocks area, lots of positive, cheerful cooperative work going on there.

It is unlike Ferguson, 15 miles away, where buildings have been torched and ruined. Ferguson is pretty much toast, and there's more to come tonight.

[catherine]

Today I drove through the area of the city that's being targeted for protests today. It's about 2 miles from me (it's not Ferguson!) It's where another black teen was shot by a policeman a few weeks after Mike Brown incident.

This is a great business district full of international restaurants. Many of them were proactively boarding up their windows, expecting violence tonight. It was actually a very amazing, and fun sight to see lots of young people out. They were all painting "OPEN" in big letters and were adding artistic decorations to the plywood. One of the signs at the notoriously hippie South City Diner said "Why? Because we Need Our Jobs!" Things looked good all along the 4 -5 blocks area, lots of positive, cheerful cooperative work going on there.

It is unlike Ferguson, 15 miles away, where buildings have been torched and ruined. Ferguson is pretty much toast, and there's more to come tonight.

iris lilies, it's all such a tragedy. I pray that the community comes together tonight.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, hope all is well with your family stuff.Catherine, Thank You. I really appreciate your kind words here. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Today I drove through the area of the city that's being targeted for protests today. It's about 2 miles from me (it's not Ferguson!) It's where another black teen was shot by a policeman a few weeks after Mike Brown incident.

This is a great business district full of international restaurants. Many of them were proactively boarding up their windows, expecting violence tonight. It was actually a very amazing, and fun sight to see lots of young people out. They were all painting "OPEN" in big letters and were adding artistic decorations to the plywood. One of the signs at the notoriously hippie South City Diner said "Why? Because we Need Our Jobs!" Things looked good all along the 4 -5 blocks area, lots of positive, cheerful cooperative work going on there.

It is unlike Ferguson, 15 miles away, where buildings have been torched and ruined. Ferguson is pretty much toast, and there's more to come tonight.It sounds as if unrest has not spread thoughout St. Louis and I'm guessing you must have felt somewhat safe if you drove around in your car - glad to hear this and glad that you are safe. We often disagree but that doesn't mean that I don't support your right to have views that oppose mine. I wish you continued safety and peace in your area. Rob

[iris lilies]

It sounds as if unrest has not spread thoughout St. Louis and I'm guessing you must have felt somewhat safe if you drove around in your car - glad to hear this and glad that you are safe. We often disagree but that doesn't mean that I don't support your right to have views that oppose mine. I wish you continued safety and peace in your area. Rob

Thanks Rob! It is not unsafe. The motherf**king media makes St. Louis sound like a war zone and they are complete idiots for doing so. Things are fine here, perfectly fine in 99.9% of St. Louis. At night is when the badnicks come out, so I don't know what will happen then. But people with common sense stay home.

[Packy]

Thanks Rob! It is not unsafe. The motherf**king media makes St. Louis sound like a war zone and they are complete idiots for doing so. Things are fine here, perfectly fine in 99.9% of St. Louis. At night is when the badnicks come out, so I don't know what will happen then. But people with common sense stay home. Yeah, but: What about the recent incident that happened at your neighborhood bistro, 11-11? Is it ok to be robbed when you are just trying to have an expensive meal, for something to do? Not trying to be snarky, here.