The slow fade?

Families can be so different. Some people should never have had children......but it happens all the time. Sometimes I think for us baby boomers, our to-be fathers came home from the war and were afraid that life was getting away from them, so they "settled" for the first woman who came along. Also......I think many people thought you had to be married to have sex, so they married for that........and when the interest in that wasn't so great, they realized there wasn't much else.

We were a very troubled family..........as were some of the other neighbors. But then there were the ones we envied, who seemed to have parents who actually loved them.......and were healthy emotionally themselves.
Everyone is different in how they can handle things. Of course, my bias with toxic parents is to lose them ASAP. But maybe those who have had better families growing up.....they can say to be kinder and more tolerant. It's not an easy thing to deal with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CathyA

Families can be so different. Some people should never have had children......but it happens all the time. Sometimes I think for us baby boomers, our to-be fathers came home from the war and were afraid that life was getting away from them, so they "settled" for the first woman who came along. Also......I think many people thought you had to be married to have sex, so they married for that........and when the interest in that wasn't so great, they realized there wasn't much else.

We were a very troubled family..........as were some of the other neighbors. But then there were the ones we envied, who seemed to have parents who actually loved them.......and were healthy emotionally themselves.
Everyone is different in how they can handle things. Of course, my bias with toxic parents is to lose them ASAP. But maybe those who have had better families growing up.....they can say to be kinder and more tolerant. It's not an easy thing to deal with.

---

Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
Till you spend half your life just covering up
Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.

-The Boss

CathyA: "I haven't read all the responses.......but I grew up in a family where my father was at first, an alcoholic.....then a "born again christian", who thought it would give him some power to become a minister. He disliked "others", and I believe he hated me. My mother had her head in the sand. I tried to be a good daughter, but it didn't seem to help. I divorced my father when I was about 31, when he was cruel to me one last time. Then I tolerated my mother until I was in my late 30's.......then I divorced her. We can all have our opinions ULA, but we've all had potentially very different upbringings and experiences. You have to decide for yourself if you appreciate anything at all about your parents.......or if they are toxic to you. I can't tell you how freeing it was for me to let them go. It was something I just had to do to breathe again. I've never regretted it.
Williamsmith, I think you said that ULA sort of owed his father something, since he had raised him. I'm afraid I have to disagree. My father "raised" me.....but he filled me with all sorts of problems/hate/etc., etc., and I owed him absolutely nothing. It's different if you're raised with love and sacrifice and support.........but quite another thing if you've been raised with none of that.
So ULA.......this is something you need to decide for yourself. Good luck with that. It isn't always an easy choice."

Ditto to what CathyA said. I don't know know how to copy her response like all of you do, I am very tech challenged so I am sure I have hit the wrong buttons. Anyway - There is something similar with a relative of mine who was abused in a horrible way and I would love for her to cut off all ties with her family as it has ruled her life. She has tried to do the grin and bare it thing but it just eats away at her. I feel it would be so much better emotionally for her if she had severed all ties and went on with her life. Therapy hasn't helped. Each family thing that comes up brings up old wounds. Also all these so called born again Christians that have been mentioned are not following the teachings of Jesus. I am a Christian and I guess they must be reading a different Bible than I am. UA, I hope you can figure out what is right for you and what is best for you. Another person responded by saying she keeps a polite distance. I think that is a good idea too, so the ties aren't completely severed but if you do need to contact them at sometime the line is still open. I hope you find peace in whatever you decide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corkym

I hope you find peace in whatever you decide.

---

Thank you. :)

And I hope that relative of yours can find some peace too.

I was reflecting a bit more.

I really dislike American gun culture. And my dad shoving this messed up gun culture right in my face -- while I am driving -- and just not being safe with a firearm bothered me deeply.

Now keep in mind, I am a member of a gun club. I like to shoot sporting clays and such. I occasionally have gone hunting.

But the gun culture is frightening and grotesque and darkly bizarre. And my dad is now right in the thick of this mass insanity.

It makes me want to sell the two guns I do have -- just to distance myself from this crazy culture of gun nuttery.

Your dad owns a gun. You own a gun. People are going to start thinking you are just like your dad.

I should probably quit fishing too.

And I noticed my dad drinks water and other fluids to stay hydrated. I should probably stop doing that too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

He and my mom meticulously planned when and how many kids they were going to have. He chose to create me.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

My dad did not plan to have an atheist and/or minimalist son; he is fine with the angler part mostly.

---

So he choose to create you, or not? I didn't realize the tech was even there to create a boy, then!
He choose to create life. That is it.
That still doesn't mean he is ready or capable to deal with you on terms you can deal with. Everyone has their issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

So he choose to create you, or not? I didn't realize the tech was even there to create a boy, then!
He choose to create life. That is it.
That still doesn't mean he is ready or capable to deal with you on terms you can deal with. Everyone has their issues.

---

I think a fair amount of the time, nobody chooses to create life.......they choose to have sex.......and the creation part is a potentially unfortunate/unwanted side-effect.

I was failed birth control, which is why I'm crazy, redundant, paranoid about birth control (I have an IUD and worry - feel the string for the 10th millionth time again etc.) and won't have any real true peace until menopause I guess. I can't imagine anyone anywhere (except post FULL menopause) ever having completely unprotected sex with no birth control, this sounds to me about like jumping out of a plane without a parachute (which ok at that point you want the consequences). No it doesn't make sex easy, it's not an easy thing.

Sorry rodeo........I missed that part that he wrote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CathyA

Sorry rodeo........I missed that part that he wrote.

---

They purposefully waited 11 years after getting married.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

I was failed birth control, which is why I'm crazy, redundant, paranoid about birth control (I have an IUD and worry - feel the string for the 10th millionth time again etc.) and won't have any real true peace until menopause I guess. I can't imagine anyone anywhere (except post FULL menopause) ever having completely unprotected sex with no birth control, this sounds to me about like jumping out of a plane without a parachute (which ok at that point you want the consequences). No it doesn't make sex easy, it's not an easy thing.

---

Even with fertility issues we used birth control and even had DH get the big V snip though it was unlikely I'd be able to get pregnant again without the help of fertility drugs.

Apparently birth control is so ineffective that people might as well not even use it?

Tubal ligation worked for me. The operation was a breeze, with about a day's minor stiffness. I would recommend one to any woman uninterested in reproducing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CathyA

I think a fair amount of the time, nobody chooses to create life.......they choose to have sex.......and the creation part is a potentially unfortunate/unwanted side-effect.

---

May be, but not in this case. In some cases, they don't even choose to have sex.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CathyA

Sorry rodeo........I missed that part that he wrote.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Apparently birth control is so ineffective that people might as well not even use it?

---

Even not having sex, wouldn't be 100% effective is someone wanted to abduct you and surgically remove sperm or eggs. Isn't that as realistic as your question?

Back when my relative was created, there was no safe abortion technique for unwanted kids. The home brew methods don't always work and didn't in his case.
There are other kids I know, who were created because of violence. If you go back far enough, in peoples history's the majority of people might not be here, because they were wanted.
Then you have cases against birth control manufacturers.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...they_have.html
That case is rather clear. What about the cases where the condom broke, or the pill falls in that not effective percent? You have a chance, but it seriously diminishes:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jan/24/claredyer1
Then what do you tell the kid or what do they learn as they get older?
You didn't want kids, or you didn't want them (specifically)?

I don't know anybody who agrees with the parents/family 100% of the time. I've got one side where someone left their kid, for their mental health. The kid was probably as messed up by that, as they were helped by not being around it. They were lucky enough to find them and make piece, before they died, before their parent, due to cancer.
As I said, you can make plans, but not everything will be in your control, so who knows what your future will bring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDAHL

For what it may be worth, I've generally derived more happiness/satisfaction from the obligations I've taken on then the ones I've avoided. I would not trade away one minute I've spent with the old man, even the disagreements and unwanted advice.

I didn't ask to be born. It was a gift.

---

This. My dad sucked as a parent in so many ways except for working his ass off to provide for us. I assumed once I was out of that house I would only be back for obligatory visits. Then, this won't happen to you, but he went on anti-depressants for pain and became a different man, to the point where I came home, spent time with him and said to my brother, "very funny, now where's the ***hole I supposedly love?" He had actually changed pretty close to a 180. He still can be a very unpleasant person to be around, particularly political conversations. But he became bearable.

Now if someone told me even 3 yrs ago I'd buy a house with this man to take care of my mother as she dies, I'd have laughed in your face. But it's funny how life comes around with hard obligations to take on and you do them. I am close to my mother but on paper I have every reason not to be since she chose my dad over her kids for the first 20 years of our lives, she didn't protect us. But I thought hard and realized enough time had passed, the past is the past, my father is always, always going to have stupid conversations about things I truly care about and make me crazy but does any of that trump my dying mother? And for me, the answer was no. So I jumped in with both feet.

then I got really sick and this man who I was not too sure about having a deep and abiding love for him, picked me up off the floor over and over and over again and never complained (complaining is his major hobby). He drove me to 76 MD appts last year and again, never a complaint or even a sigh of "oh, this again". Did he hold my hand, weep and tell me how much he loves me and wants me to get better? Of course not, but he proved himself to be a selfless man of grace where the rubber hits the road.

yet if you rode in the car with my dad, we have had many arguments similar to the conversations you were having with your dad, escalating into yelling and hand gestures. For the most part turning ranting talk radio to oldies and telling him to shut the hell up, works. I'm fairly certain more than 50% of his crap is pure nonsense just to get me going but we differ enough that we would never spend time together if we weren't related. I would never have chosen him as a friend.

Life gives you one father. If he didn't beat you (and sometimes even if he did) and abandon you, you are one of the lucky ones. No, you didn't ask to be born but you turned out ok, surely he had something to do with that or maybe not. We are not meant to be friends with our parents, we are not wired to agree with our parents. Sometimes what we are meant to learn from them is to never, ever be like them. But in my belief system, you respect and love your parents to the best of your ability unless there is something so awful you just can't. And arguing about gun control is something I can (and do) live with.

Try talking to him about the hot button topics and ask him to stop or do the slow fade out of his life, just be sure this is not a relationship you may one day deeply regret giving up on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Apparently birth control is so ineffective that people might as well not even use it?

---

I've been having frequent sexual activity with the same partner for nearly 40 years now. And we are fanatical about birth control, as we had A Plan for when we wanted a child, *if* we decided to have one.

As a result of our belt-and-suspenders approach to biotechnology and PPE, we have a 19 year old daughter in college now, and we never *did* make that decision.

Soon age and surgery will further reduce our odds of sending a second child through college, but...

https://media.giphy.com/media/IL1sMUfQVRNFC/giphy.gif

I just read about your GF and I am truly sorry.

Also, I forgot to say, had my dad been waving a gun around in a car I was driving, he would've been walking home. That was incredibly crazy of him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freshstart

Also, I forgot to say, had my dad been waving a gun around in a car I was driving, he would've been walking home.

---

One of my firm rules in vehicles is that handguns guns stay in holsters and don't get handled unless there is some Pressing Need.

It wasn't clear from the original post if "waving a gun around" was involved, but still...

Loved your story, freshstart.

People are imperfect. Most of us do the best we can most of the time. As we get older, we realize this.
I agree with the idea that many of us feel we were "assigned" the wrong family. I certainly feel that way. Oh well.
Excellent post, Freshstart.
I used the belt and suspenders method for years, too. Fortunately, it didn't fail me. Talk about hypervigilance!

Freshstart..........you bring up a good point about antidepressants and other brain chemicals that can help us now, that weren't available back then.
I often wondered if my father had taken them, if he would have been a kinder/gentler/less hateful, angry man.

His mother didn't like him........she resented him because she was ill a lot and had him "later"in life (probably in her late 20s!) and his older sister had to drop out of high school to help her take care of him. He hated my mother and me, but liked my brother. But then he also idolized some other women. I guess my point is, there are so many variables into why people end up being good/bad/or tolerable parents.

I was always afraid to have children, for fear I would despise them..........after all, aren't children just a royal pain in the ass (according to my father)? But instead, I think I was a very good and loving mom. But.....I didn't have to work outside the home, or be the bread-winner, so I can't say what effect that would have had on my interaction with the kids. I hope it wouldn't have changed anything.

There's just so many variables.....
Funny how some people can "escape" their upbringing and have different attitudes/traits/relationships with people, while some others continue the abuse later in life with their own families.

Work towards being different than your dad, ULA. Use his example to help guide you. Like they say.......everyone is here for a reason..........even if it's to set a horrible example. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CathyA

His mother didn't like him........she resented him because she was ill a lot and had him "later"in life (probably in her late 20s!) and his older sister had to drop out of high school to help her take care of him.

---

That's heartbreaking. I remember seeing a Steven Sondheim interview on 60 Minutes. He had a very difficult relationship with his mother, but when she was dying he went to her deathbed hoping for some kind of peace between them. But instead of any conciliatory words, she told him that she wished she never had him. I remember the pain on his face as he was relating that story, and he was not young at the time of the interview. I think that kind of thing always stays with you. I'm sorry for your father, CathyA, but I'm also sorry that the "sins of the grandmother" fell upon you, too. But it's very apparent that you have done just the opposite with your kids, so you deserve kudos for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CathyA

Work towards being different than your dad, ULA. Use his example to help guide you.

---

I try to live by this:

“The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.” ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catherine

I remember seeing a Steven Sondheim interview on 60 Minutes. He had a very difficult relationship with his mother, but when she was dying he went to her deathbed hoping for some kind of peace between them. But instead of any conciliatory words, she told him that she wished she never had him. I remember the pain on his face as he was relating that story, and he was not young at the time of the interview.

---

Link?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Link?

---

Can't find it.. wish I could.

This American Life segment about parenting.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/317/transcript

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bae

One of my firm rules in vehicles is that handguns guns stay in holsters and don't get handled unless there is some Pressing Need.

It wasn't clear from the original post if "waving a gun around" was involved, but still...

---

It was basically just pulling it out, showing it off, and then passing it from the front seat to the back and then to the front again while I am driving through a residential area.

I'm sure that at the various ages in history, showing love/support, etc., varied a lot. If you're struggling for existence, you don't have the same feelings as when you are safe, fed, secure (as parents). Even in the 1950s, there was a lot of difference between how people treated their children. (What am I saying.........there still IS a lot of difference). As the saying used to go......."Children are to be seen and not heard". Everything seems to swing from one side of the pendulum to the other. I think you CAN be too soft on your child too. But......you can be firm, yet let your children know you love them and are there to protect them.

I really believe in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you don't get past having one type of need fulfilled in childhood......then you'll be stuck there in your interactions with adults.

I’m reading the book “Toxic Parents”. It’s very good. As the author points out, the behavior of parents isn’t just limited to one specific parent…..it’s like a multi-car pile-up. It goes back generation after generation after generation. As I mentioned earlier, my father treated me badly………and his mother treated him badly, and one or both of her parents probably treated her badly, etc. etc.

It’s not easy to deal with the hurt/damage from mistreatment by parents…….but you have to try, in order to not carry on the tradition of that “multi-car pile-up”.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freshstart

I just read about your GF and I am truly sorry.

---

Thanks. I am muddling through.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catherine

That's heartbreaking. I remember seeing a Steven Sondheim interview on 60 Minutes. He had a very difficult relationship with his mother, but when she was dying he went to her deathbed hoping for some kind of peace between them. But instead of any conciliatory words, she told him that she wished she never had him. I remember the pain on his face as he was relating that story, and he was not young at the time of the interview. I think that kind of thing always stays with you. I'm sorry for your father, CathyA, but I'm also sorry that the "sins of the grandmother" fell upon you, too. But it's very apparent that you have done just the opposite with your kids, so you deserve kudos for that.

---

Thanks catherine! :)

That's really sad about Steven Sondheim. I can honestly say I NEVER would say anything like that about my children. I would never even think it..........even through the worst of times. Love was always there.
My father never came out and said that, but he said it indirectly, always finding fault with everything I did, and telling me I was a "contemptible little wretch." I didn't even know what that was, but I knew it wasn't good!
Children give their parents soooooo many chances to love them. In many cases their survival depends on it. Hope springs eternal, I guess..........but eventually one does give up (and should.).
I find the human psyche so interesting..........how it can be so cruel or loving. The brain can do so many things to protect the human it belongs to, suppress things, excuse things, rationalize things, endure things, etc.

Sorry to have gotten off-track a bit ULA............I truly hope you can find some peace with your family.....whether that means finally accepting them, or ignoring them, or divorcing them. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CathyA

Thanks catherine! :)

That's really sad about Steven Sondheim. I can honestly say I NEVER would say anything like that about my children. I would never even think it..........even through the worst of times. Love was always there.
My father never came out and said that, but he said it indirectly, always finding fault with everything I did, and telling me I was a "contemptible little wretch." I didn't even know what that was, but I knew it wasn't good!
Children give their parents soooooo many chances to love them. In many cases their survival depends on it. Hope springs eternal, I guess..........but eventually one does give up (and should.).
I find the human psyche so interesting..........how it can be so cruel or loving. The brain can do so many things to protect the human it belongs to, suppress things, excuse things, rationalize things, endure things, etc.

Sorry to have gotten off-track a bit ULA............I truly hope you can find some peace with your family.....whether that means finally accepting them, or ignoring them, or divorcing them. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with.

---

You are not off track. I appreciate all you've shared.

I have had some more time to cool down and reflect more on this situation with my parents and how they frickin' annoy me! haha

My thought is that they are probably pretty dang annoyed by me too. And as a result of this mutual annoyance we'll mutually ignore each other for a while.

No harm; no foul.

After the annoyance has worn off totally, I will consciously reassess the situation. Perhaps they will do the same.

Maybe we can find some equilibrium where we see each other more rarely, but no one is really signed off.

As I mentioned, last weekend I went home. I saw some friends from the old neighborhood and stopped to visit with my parents.

When I was there my dad gave me a small packet in an envelope. He said that inside it was a decal sticker for my car.

Oy vey...

Today I went into the back seat of my car where I left it and forgot about it. I opened this thing up and there was indeed a decal sticker. In fact, there were three!

One was a G. Loomis sticker. This is a fish pole manufacturer.

I'd hope that my dad knows this, but I don't advertise if I can avoid it. My shirts and pants and jackets and so forth are all plain and without visible corporate insignia.

I have no intention of advertising for G. Loomis. I don't even use those products.

But here is the real zinger. He included two NRA stickers for my car. FFS! I am a liberal -- a liberal liberal.

Why the frickin' heck?!

Those are certainly getting trashed.

And then he included a totally bizarre item -- a waterproof paper notebook.

The poor guy just does not seem to get it. I am a minimalist. I don't need this stuff!

Argh! Always with the stuff.

Couldnt you use the NRA sticker ironically? Not on your car, but, say, on your refrigerator.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iris lilies

Couldnt you use the NRA sticker ironically? Not on your car, but, say, on your refrigerator.

---

No, but I could stick it to the inside of the toilet.

by the end, I was being blasted by extreme conservative values by ex-BF, if he'd have given me a NRA sticker, I would've superglued it to his toilet bowel so he'd be urinating on his God-given 2nd amendment rights.

the NRA stickers seem so off, is your dad maybe getting a touch of dementia? He can't possibly be so clueless as to think you would want them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freshstart

by the end, I was being blasted by extreme conservative values by ex-BF, if he'd have given me a NRA sticker, I would've superglued it to his toilet bowel so he'd be urinating on his God-given 2nd amendment rights.

the NRA stickers seem so off, is your dad maybe getting a touch of dementia? He can't possibly be so clueless as to think you would want them

---

I would guess that UL's father thinks UL SHOULD want whatever he gives him. Its not about recognizjg the real UL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

But here is the real zinger. He included two NRA stickers for my car. FFS! I am a liberal -- a liberal liberal.

---

My guess is your father doesn't understand that particularly liberal mindset that the NRA is evil. He probably knows that the NRA is the pre-eminent firearms safety training source and has been for several generations. I suspect that liberal liberals often don't see the entire picture.