50 Shades of Grey would seem to be a deal killer.
50 Shades of Grey would seem to be a deal killer.
well it does seem that if what is being really sought is a sperm donor anyway, it is better to seek it honestly. Something to be said for honesty. You would think all the must have a baby YESTERDAY (not eventually) would kind of interfere with the actual development of a relationship for a relationships sake and it's natural course.Quote:
But if I did know I wanted a baby, I'd plan carefully for one and consider artificial insemination by someone known to me, if marriage didn't come easily or naturally.
It seems to me distasteful to glom on to the nearest man in some panic-stricken race against the clock.
Do the women really want kids or are just afraid they will miss an important life experience if they don't have them (quite true of course, but then noone experiences everything). Do they even spend time with or like kids? Are kids the only path they see to a meaningful life? Understandable because life in this society does tend toward meaninglessness. Ah well I don't know.
Almost any relationship can be made to work. This one seems to have more built in problems than an AMC Gremlin. So she's a "Super Christian"........Has it ever crossed your mind that she has posted a thread on a Christian website that reads...."How to Convince my boyfriend he needs to become a Christian, live in the Suburbs and father my three children."
Who is trying to change who?
Ultralight, you're starting to remind me of a boy who was pursuing my daughter. They met at an activity she hadn't tried before and didn't enjoy. He was very nice to her. Because he was so nice, she said he could call her. He started showing up at activities she liked to see her, even though he clearly had no interest in them, (which we thought was sweet at first)
and then he started pressuring her to return to the original activity and go with him to see other things in which she knew she had no interest. All the while being so NICE it was hard for her to say no. When he finally told him it wan't going to work out (after he had spoiled one of her favorite fair days by following her around like a puppy hoping there would be a reward any minute for all these silly ticks it was having to do) all he could say was " but you're so pretty."
My daughter is strong and not lonely or broken, and her response was "really? That's all you've got for me? We should date because you think I'm pretty?"
If you want to do right by this woman, you should probably end it. If she is "very Christian and wouldn't go for friends with benefits". Either she believes in her heart that you are going to marry her, or you guys are already friends (who don't have a lot in common) and there will never be any benefits.
What I don't here you saying are things like "I love her.". "She makes me happy" " I am lonely/sad/miserable when we have to be apart for a long time", "she makes my life better.". "she makes ME a better person.", "she encourages and supports me in my goals and dreams.". "she shares my goal/dream/desire/interest..."
My best friend in college was a guy. We had a lot in common, we had a great time together, we were good for each other, i loved him and still do, but was not "in love" with him. we had very different life goals and he was not what I was looking for in a life partner and father of my children. He was also very attractive. I could totally have seen it going in a "friends with benefits" direction - especially on a couple of nights when he had a really bad break up and called me and I had to go over and monitor his drinking and make sure he didn't drunk dial the girl. If it would have made him feel better... But he was the kind of guy who doesn't have sex with a woman he doesn't intend to marry. So that was a hard line we never got close to. I rubbed his shoulders sometimes when they were sore from a workout, hugged him in public now and then, and that was it.
he wouldn't have been "doing right" by me by calling himself my boyfriend and keeping me from finding dh any more than he would have been "doing wrong" by me by accepting freely offered comfort if that had been his thing.
How would you feel if some other man started taking your girlfriend on the kind of dates she wants? are there things in your relationship that could continue? Are you friends with women? I ask that last because my mother never understood my best friend. She had literally never been just friends with a man. There were men she liked fine, but she only saw them socially in couple settings with my dad. For her as a single woman it had always been potential boyfriend, current boyfriend, or no interest. So I wonder if that is in your frame of reference.
Really, what is the big deal about tall? Women friends would set their Match search to a certain height. I'd go out with Peter Dinklage, I don't get it. My cousin, who has never been lucky in her search, made a profile and asked me to help. "Work is very important to me, you must have a job and a car. I love dogs. No baby mama drama!" Whole profile. I tired to suss out some interests, hobbies, books, music, movies, anything to get more sentences. Finally she said, "I like Brad Paisley." Added that and called it a day. Encouraged her to take down the tank top boob shots and just put up a picture that captures her in a funny moment and her happiness lights up her face. Boob shots stayed. The worst part was I could not get her to see that having "graduated" from HS is not what they mean about having a "graduate" degree. That stayed, so said she was a nursing assistant (nothing wrong with this) with a graduate degree (nothing wrong with this either because she just didn't understand, she wasn't trying to deceive).
I think we all see that you are really trying, doing and saying the "right" things as you perceive them. So it would seem she does not appreciate this, but it sounds like she does. Then is it the "things" you both value are not "right" for each other? Why is a super Christian woman ok with a LTR with an atheist and vice versa? Isn't this a huge deal to a super Christian person? We talked about settling and sometimes that's good enough, perhaps that is what is happening here.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
First thing... there is a lot to respond to on this thread, so forgive my serial posting, please. I will try to keep it concise. :)
Here is the interesting thing, of the two of us, you'd probably call me the more "spiritual" one (though I dislike that term as I do not believe in spirits or anything for which there is no evidence). But I am the philosophical one, the seeker. I go on meditation binges and meditate for up to an hour at a time. My minimalism is outward symbol of my inner work -- and my inner world -- which focuses on nature, friendships, relationships, and critical examination of our existence. I am fascinated by the way ancient religious folks lived their lives -- from shaman to St. Francis, as well as people like Daniel Suelo in our current age. With that said, I am technically and "Anti-theist," someone who thinks that eventually humankind needs to dissolve all religions for our mutual betterment. And sooner is better!Quote:
Originally Posted by kib
For my gf, she is a fairly standard Christian. She does not go to church but still "believes" and prays. She has religious artifacts (like pics of Jesus) all around her house. She equates religiousness with morality.
Thank you for acknowledging the idea that maybe she is also trying to change me. I often feel like she would just really like me to quit with the nonsense -- my simple living, my philosophical seeking, my pursuit of that ever nebulous "truth" and just live a normative, quasi-middle class life of work, TV, passive amusements, and family life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Williamsmith
She has not ever tried to convert me though. I am involved very deeply in the atheist community. It is the center of my social life. I host atheist canoe trips and attend a wide variety of atheist-related events. It is clear to her that I am an ardent atheist.
The relationship seems doomed. You don't seem to like anything much about her except the way she looks. ARen't there any hot atheistic girls out there to fall in love with?Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
I'd show her this thread and let her go.
you can't say you didn't try, you processed this every which way but Sunday
Chicken Lady: Thank you for the insightful explanations and questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I do want to clarify. I do not put pressure on my gf to do anything that I like to do. I have made it clear to her that if I invite her to do something and she'd rather not, then she is free to decline. No harm; no foul, She has done so -- declining to go canoeing for instance and other such things. I told her early on I'd prefer not to be one of those couples where each person takes turns doing things they don't like in order to do things the other person does like all the time.
Also: I have joked (to myself) that if she found a "gay bff" then she could go on "dates" with him too! Win, win, win! lol
And, the vast majority of my friends are women. This has made my gf suspicious somewhat often. But she has mellowed out about it as she has met my friends here and there.
I do like that she is kind and compassionate. Those are a big deal to me! Compassion is so incredibly important to me for any kind of relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeosweetheart
And no, atheist women are rare. Most atheist guys date religious or "spiritual" women, or they remain single. Though I do know of a handful of atheist women who have multiple boyfriends who all know about each other. It is a unique way that they are dealing with the astoundingly off-kilter ratio of women to men in the atheist community.
Are you KIDDING!!!??? AMC Gremlins were little workhorses and ran like tops. Geesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Williamsmith
I had one, my mom had one, they ran for 20years.
Now back to,p our topic,at hand,problems in love...
And you mock my PT Cruiser? Haha. Advantage Jane.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
Dammit--I'm going to find a ROFL smiley.
I don't know about atheist women; it doesn't sound like you need an atheist--a lot of them are as annoying as their opposite number--but the country is full of irreligious types. Certainly that's true around here. My circle is admittedly small, but I don't have any friends or relatives who are believers or churchgoers. Unless you want to count my second cousin, who graduated from a small Christian college and never lets you forget it. Her grandmother is undoubtedly spinning in her grave; makes me laugh every time I think of it.
I am not sure. I am average height, so I don't put much thought into it. But I know I was turned away or ignored many times for not meeting the "at least 6 feet" minimum that many women have. But I have asked women about the height issue and they say these things:Quote:
Originally Posted by freshstart
1. "I don't want to lean down to kiss him."
2. "I want to feel protected."
3. "I want to feel petite next to him, or at least smaller."
4. "I don't want to look lopsided standing next to him."
5. "Height...big feet...things like that are a sign of a ___ ____!"
Personally, I have dated women of all varieties. I like women across the entire range from Kelly Ripa (petite, cute, spunky) to Jill Scott (so beautiful!).
I have dated women who were taller and more muscular than me (this was when I was in shape in college too! haha). I just don't see height as something of importance in a partner.
She is probably okay with me not being a Christian because I lead a fairly "Christ-like" life, or what-have-you. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. I am compassionate to people, community-minded, and kind to animals. I am not materialistic; I strive to be a person of integrity. Etc.Quote:
I think we all see that you are really trying, doing and saying the "right" things as you perceive them. So it would seem she does not appreciate this, but it sounds like she does. Then is it the "things" you both value are not "right" for each other? Why is a super Christian woman ok with a LTR with an atheist and vice versa? Isn't this a huge deal to a super Christian person? We talked about settling and sometimes that's good enough, perhaps that is what is happening here.
My mother, who is Catholic, rationalizes my atheism like this: "It does not matter than you don't believe in god. What matters is that god believes in you!"
I think that is nonsense, but it gets her through the night. My Christian friends and my Christian gf probably have a similar rationalization.
As an atheist man, I have to accept that the numbers are not in my favor. Most atheists are men. Period. End of story.
That is the demographic reality I am dealing with.
Ok, Ok, you get a point or two for the car thing, but I am not convinced the Cruiser will go for 20 years. They don't build them now like they used to. besides, my Gremlin would leave you behind in a race, it had power and light body.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
As for atheist group, hmmm. Now, in my adult life, I would stay far away from them because I would think they would be strident in their expression of non-belief, had enough of that with the UUS. Any group centered around a faith base is not my cup of tea.
But in my youth, I might have checked out your group as a non-believer. Atheist fishing expeditions are pretty funny.
women aren't proselytizers - generally, some are :). Whereas men are more often. But I've known people who have relocated across the country to find someone. Not just atheists although one woman I am thinking of was (and I have to say overtly religious people seem very much the exception here except for the new age people of course), but dating mid-life, it's really much more favorable to do that in a large urban area where it's considering no big deal your not settled down etc. Sure the 20 somethings are hotter, so it may be far from ideal, but fairly normal.Quote:
I don't know about atheist women; it doesn't sound like you need an atheist--a lot of them are as annoying as their opposite number--but the country is full of irreligious types. Certainly that's true around here. My circle is admittedly small, but I don't have any friends or relatives who are believers or churchgoers. Unless you want to count my second cousin, who graduated from a small Christian college and never lets you forget it.
I don't hassle UltralightAngler, if they are happier together than apart, it's their own business.
That's OK; I probably won't go for 20 years either. rrrrrQuote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
my GF calls it Angry Short Man Syndrome, like Jeremy Piven on EntourageQuote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
Ultralight fisherman - you would make a good Quaker or Amishman :)
Did anyone see Shunned on Netflix? I don't think I'd want to be a female Amish person.
Non-believers and "spiritual" people comprise around 15% of the population. So "full" is not actually the case. This is especially true since agnostics and atheists generally do not consider themselves spiritual (because they do not believe in spirits, for one thing).Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
I am 5'9" and I don't feel angry...Quote:
Originally Posted by freshstart
Thanks... I am an Amish sympathizer, mostly because I am a Luddite too. ;)
But I am usually okay with Quaker types and Buddhists.
Here's Gallup's ranking of the least religious states: (from OregonLive)
State....................................% Very religious
1. Vermont.......................19%
2. New Hampshire...........23%
3. Maine...........................24%
4. Massachusetts.............27%
5. Rhode Island................29%
5. Oregon.........................29%
7. Nevada.........................31%
7. Hawaii...........................31%
7. Alaska...........................31%
7. Connecticut...................31%
7. Washington...................31%
From Wikipedia:
A 2008*Gallup*poll comparing belief in God among U.S. regions found that only 59% of residents in the Western United States believe in a god, compared to 80% in the*East, 83% in the*Midwest, and 86% in the*South.[7]
Plenty of women to choose from, at least in the West.
Thanks for the list!Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
My grandmother was a very devout Catholic. My grandfather was irreligious. They produced five children and a happy married life together. She went off to church every Sunday; he went to the golf course. "Mixed marriages" can work out.
Most "mixed" marriages are Catholic woman/Atheist man, at least in my informal surveying.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
Something else of note is that my relationship with my gf is mixed both "religiously" and racially.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
I was looking at it from a more general perspective, really. I am - or at least I was - passionate about simple living and streamlining of my life and my possessions. Passionate. You could almost say it was a religion for me. I wound up with someone who claimed they "got it", but in retrospect they didn't agree that OUR life, together as a couple, would really reflect this. Frugal was for when you really didn't want the thing anyway. Minimal only applied to My stuff, all the free space in our house has gradually been taken over by junk no one really wants. "Green" - e.g. recycling, using cloth napkins - is not a philosophy, it's something he only does when I'm watching. It became obvious that "simple" means it's fine that I sit in a chair and meditate - once all the chaotic mess I didn't create has been dealt with. Discussing any goals and challenges in this arena was pointless because there was no underlying agreement that this was the direction we wanted to move in. Basically "all that" - my life's work - was supposed to be my downtime hobby in his opinion.
The point is, while I agree with WilliamSmith that any relationship can be made to work, making it work with someone who will be naturally at odds with your life philosophy ten times a day ... sucks. I'm making it work, nothing is so terrible that it's a deal breaker, but if I'd been like Iris Lilies and at some earlier point opened my eyes, I probably would have said, "this is not enough". Now I'm in and I love him too much to leave, but it's basically meant "compromising" my underlying hopes for my life. I've spent a decade trying to figure out how to compromise emulating Peace Pilgrim and also Donna Reed, and it can't be done.
Short n sweet: it's one thing to have separate interests, but I firmly believe sharing an underlying philosophy of what matters, how to move life in that direction, and how to work as a team toward a shared vision makes for a higher quality relationship.
And ETA: I'm not blaming my husband. We both went in with blinders on, him not understanding what I meant by "typical American mainstream living" I have no use for while standing inside that box, me standing outside the box not understanding that he didn't understand. And I know that it's equally frustrating for him to feel like half of the "normal" things he does upset me. He's honestly trying, but he's trying because it's important to ME, when what I most wish is that it were important to HIM. His choices aren't made because they are logical given an underlying viewpoint because he doesn't Have that underlying viewpoint, he just waits for me to tell him what the logical choice would be.
If I can be blatantly honest for a moment... This sounds so desperate and sad. :( Just heartbreaking...Quote:
Originally Posted by kib
I agree.Quote:
Short n sweet: it's one thing to have separate interests, but I firmly believe sharing an underlying philosophy of what matters, how to move life in that direction, and how to work as a team toward a shared vision makes for a higher quality relationship.
I'm pretty sure my grandfather was just a nonbeliever--although he died before I could meet him. When I think of atheists, I picture those tiresome crusading types who can't shut up about religion.
The atheist community is not that homogenized. We have our diplomats and our firebrands; we have our quiet atheists you'd never expect (google The Clergy Project) and our loudmouths. We also have our well-spoken advocates. We even have our own celebrities! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
For instance, my friend Jeff (probably my only guy friend) is an atheist and a leader in our community. He is in a life partnership with a woman who is a Methodist. She attends church every Sunday. She sings in the choir. She is very active in her church. But they get along because that is their only real difference. They both love gardening and bicycling, they are both liberal democrats, and they like cats and skydiving. lol
Atheists, while trending largely toward the "straight, white male" demographic veers all over the place when it comes to personalities. Introverts. Extroverts. Funny. Serious. Pranksters. Intellectuals. Bookish. Outdoorsy. Folksy, even!
Would you say: "When I think of gays, I picture the San Francisco Pride Parade and all the leather chaps and rainbow speedos."?
No, you would not say that (at least I hope you would not) because that is prejudice.
I guess I just think trying to find one's soul mate is futile. Yes I may always be single for life, I'm just too weird frankly, but I will try to keep an open mind about it, though I still think if it works it's miraculous (and even finding a person one is physically OR emotionally drawn to and it's mutual isn't that common - much less finding someone one is both physically and mentally drawn to - may as well play the lottery!). So if two people are happier together than apart that's something, yes maybe especially if there is strong chemistry.
Ah, I wasn't looking for the pity vote, but thanks for your sympathy. It's frustrating but it's my nonsense to dig out from under, I'm slowly figuring out how to do that. Anything can be changed if you really want to. Donna Pilgrim, signing off. >8)
My point in sharing all that is, if you really feel passionate about something, if you want it reflected in every choice you make, if it's almost as important to you as breathing, then you need to find a partner who understands, supports and ideally shares that outlook. While anything can be changed if you really want to, it's so much smarter to do your best not to get into situations that need changing.
If neither of you is particularly passionate about your lifestyle or philosophy then this isn't as pressing, but take a look inside and make sure.
And I'm applying that advice to both of you, because it sounds like neither of you is really looking at what the other person is all about. Been there, doing that. Don't like it.
ApatheticNoMore:Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
I totally get this! I have had so many problems in dating and relationships because I am quirky -- very quirky!
I have this theory...
If you could take a big bag, throw the vast majority of couples into it, shake the bag up and dump it out then the couples would be in different configurations but still just as happy with their partners. Why? Because most people are pretty normative.
Now for us quirky folks it is a whole different story.
I guess I won't post any photos/accounts of the fun street fair I'll be at in SF this weekend :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
I think Pride parades are great fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
When I think of an atheist, I simply think of someone who doesn't believe. If they then form communities with diplomats and advocates, haven't they then taken it to the point of being a belief, perhaps it's own religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
While parades are cool, this is a bit different :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler