.
Printable View
.
That is very interesting, and they way you describe these hoading issues is fascinatng.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
re:collections. For some reason I am lucky and
I usually know when a collection is done. In all past times these collections have been ones that I spend a few years to gather. Perhaps I tire of the activity, perhaps I really am "done" but I do stop at some point.
In the back of my brain I have the word "representative" rather than "comprehensive." I collect a representatice sample of what I like, not a comprehensive group. With my collection of Victorian flow blue Chna, my goal was to collect pretty patterns I like, and not try to collect an entire set of one pattern. Then later
I refined the goal to collecting abstract patterns of late Victorian period.I found that I am not attracted to the Chinoise and floral patterns as much as the abstract ones, unless the floral are very "modern" (i.e. 1890's and later.)
With my book collection I focused on illustrated children's books with a fantasy theme. But the artist's work really had to,speak to me. So, this was a representative collection. But i had an obsession with fairies which were a very popular subject for children's books during the golden age of illustration, 1880-1920, so I was a bit "comprehensive" on that topic to the extent that I could afford it.
but one day I was done. There is one elusive fairy book I would still like to,have, but I dont know the name of it, something like Fairy annual. i saw it in a bookstore on Champaign IL. I still think about that book. :)
.
RoseQuartz, the mental processes you describe are very much a part of hoarding. I found myself nodding. Short circuiting or overcoming those thoughts is really hard.
the "trigger" thing, I don't know. It seems like I have always been this way. I can't think of anything that would really qualify as a "trigger" - birth trauma? - lol!
when I am collecting something, the theme is pretty much always "stuff I like."
ultralite angler, I would totally submit to a study of how I spend my time in relation to stuff as long as the researcher promises to share the results but not any opinions.
as far as "hoarder by proxy" I think it is a term that works for you as a description of a situation. From this side of the experience, I guess I would just say, would you call someone who drinks a lot socially an "alcoholic by proxy" if they did it because they were married to an alcoholic and so were put in a lot of social situations where a lot of drinking was normative? I'd say "A is an alcoholic, but B is a heavy drinker" there are a lot of other issues involved.
Tragic story with a fairly common main character/plot. When hoarders say things like "This stuff if priceless" or "This will be worth a lot of money someday!" I just want to cry. It is so sad and delusional. My grandma says it. My mom says it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
I tried collecting things as a kid, baseball cards (I did not like baseball) and comic books (I did not like them that much, the plots were boresville), and other things here or there as people encouraged me. But I got bored with it. Though I used to have a major hobby hoarding problem, but I figured out a couple ways to kick that habit!Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
I understand why people attach to stuff rather than people, or even the more tragic and rage-inducing scenario -- when people attach to animals more than people and then they hoard animals. But while I understand it, I just don't feel it. While people frustrate me and I do like most dogs more than I like most people, I still just can't connect with stuff the why hoarders do. Nor would I want to if I could. hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
Perhaps if you had a genetic disposition to hoarding then you'd have had your trigger moment and started hoarding like a champ! But luckily you don't appear to be a hoarder. Maybe you have a symptom or two, as many people do. But it seems to take more of a constellation of symptoms to get the hoarding ball a-rolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
I grew up poor too, but if I say that around my mom she will have one of her endless fits where she fixates on it and won't stop until I tell her what she wants to hear, and then she still won't stop most of the time. hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
I just always valued free time more than stuff.
Reading much of this stuff makes me glad I am a minimalist. But my heart goes out to the hoarders trying to overcome and even more so to the children of hoarders. Hoarding just so often destroys relationships.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
It is hard to say for sure if you did or did not have a trigger. The research just shows that an overwhelming number of hoarders appear to have a trigger moment. Though I often point out that minimalists have a trigger moment too, or perhaps a series of them and that cascade ends up with them simplifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
This I can't quite understand. "Stuff I like." Tell me more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
What a study that would be!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Heck of a good question in there. I will mull that over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Chicken Lady:
Can I ask a really, really tough question?
.
.
When I was going thru the stuff in our garage, I realized that dh and I do have some hoarding tendencies around specific items. For me it's textiles. Linens and fabrics for the sewing projects that I continue to believe I will complete some day (soon). This morning it hit me that maybe part of the issue is that my mother was an amazing self-taught artist. She could create some pretty amazing things across several mediums, whichever were available to her, and sewing was one of them. Unfortunately, she was not a generous or loving woman and she never shared her talents or skills with her kids. In fact, I tried my hand at sewing when I was in high school and I remember her laughing and ridiculing my one and only attempt.
Now I have this notion that I should be able to create things I want but part of me still has that emotional fear of... something...(failing? being humiliated? realizing I suck? fear of the pain of being inadequate?)
I want to try, but I'm afraid to try. So I keep several plastic bins full of fabrics that I imagine will become great looking projects some day. I don't know if it would be healthier for me to just chuck everything and realize that I can buy anything I need pretty cheaply at Ross, and be done with it. Or if I should face the fear and stumble my way through learning the ways of sewing.
Now dh has a thing for all things related to building things which I guess is common enough but he also has this thing about wanting to save every last container. Jars, tins, boxes, bottles and bags are stuffed into his designated garage wall. I respect his things and I won't touch them, but all that stuff does give me the tight claustrophobic feeling when I look at it. I think for him it's a throwback to growing up in deprivation and need - the idea of throwing out these things is emotionally hard for him.
This is THE distinction between hoarder and collector, as I am sure you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
Hoarding is broken into groups by some researchers. For instance, there is sentimental hoarding. People attach emotion to an item and can't let go. There is also instrumental hoarding. People cannot toss something because they swear it is useful!Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
You could be at risk. But remember this, perhaps this could even scare you straight, once you become a hoarder your odds of ever overcoming it are so incredibly unlikely. You have much better odds of getting hooked on heroin and kicking it than you do getting hooked on hoarding and kicking it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
.
So you might want to know, hoarders are often creative types -- artists and crafters. If you have this trait, and a handful of other hoarder traits... that is probably not a good combo. I will also say this: Having a mom like you describe is another factor that could trigger people to hoard. A detached or neglectful or just plain mean parent can make a child more connected to possessions than people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
I have failed at numerous things I tried. I put lots of time and resources into things and failed. I can assure you that you will come out mostly okay. Another possible outcome is that you will be mediocre. For instance, I learned to fish like a champ. I am a fishing success. I attempted to learn to hunt waterfowl. I was not very good at it -- using the calls was hard, really hard for me. There were other parts of it I was not good at either. But in 2015 I decided to learn to dance. I can do a handful of moves, but nothing too fancy. Just enough to blend in on a dancefloor -- so I am mediocre. How would you feel about just being mediocre?Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
What other hobbies and interests do you have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
This sounds like instrumental hoarding. It is important to reconsider the rationalization that this is a result of your husband's deprivation growing up. There is no evidence so far in the research of hoarding -- no correlation or causation -- regarding deprivation and hoarding. Your husband may just have the mental illness of compulsive hoarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
And if he does... then you have some tough questions to ask and answer yourself.
I have some friends who are social workers and therapists and such. And when I point this out they are very dubious. But then if they go and do the research they are like: "Oh, he wasn't making this up." hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
.
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
But what about this...
You cannot avoid food. You have to eat it. But can you avoid, let's say, cupcakes? Like... you eat carrots, tuna, apples, etc. but you totally and completely avoid cupcakes.
I wonder if a hoarder could think to themselves: "I have a problem hoarding ___________. So while I have other stuff, my shoes, my silverware, etc. I simply will not keep any more __________ or acquire anymore __________!"
And that cuts down on the hoarding? I doubt that would ever stick. But it is a thought.
.
My thought on recovering hoarders is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
Until there is a magic pill invented by the big drug companies (that certainly will have plenty of nasty side-effects) hoarding is a problem that will have to be policed either with a "harm reduction" strategy or by removing the person's hoard and then providing them with around the clock supervision.
maybe i'll do that compact thing for a year, but i'd buy something first :laff:.
I'd probably exclude clothes, if you do that people assume it's because your a clothes horse, but it's actually because i'm the opposite, i hate clothes shopping and have a tendency to get down to a total of 3 shirts i wear at times or something, so i'm not even keeping up with minimal social norms of having even a weeks worth of clothes at that point, so i think i need to force myself to at least keep up to those types of norms (hey i'm not living in a cave).
I don't think i'm a hoarder, i am messy though. but i did get kicked into slightly more materialistic behavior than my VERY unmaterialistic behavior before, by the trauma i found job hunting to be - i had to take a break from it for awhile too as i was near a breakdown. Deaths didn't even trigger me into collecting or anything, i just mourned, but you can't exactly mourn the stresses of job hunting - so at a certain point I had no resources left to deal with the ever mounting anxiety. I'm employed of course, I just need to get something better, but easily get overwhelmed.
The Compact is so friggin' cool! I want to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
I dislike shopping across the board. Grocery shopping is tolerable. Clothes shopping is a nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
I am "messy" in a way too. And this can be just one symptom of hoarding -- you tend to organize things horizontally rather than vertically.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
I put stuff on flat surfaces -- counters, coffee tables, etc. This way I can see it.
This is very common among hoarders. My mom does this. My dad does this. I do it. My sister does not! Which I am glad to know.
But by being a minimalist I have few enough things that being messy and/or putting things on surfaces instead of "away" takes like 5 minutes of clean up.
A hoarder would let this stuff pile up because they acquire more and more. Then wham! Hoardsville.
.
Well, SURE it is easier to see thngs when they are all spread out on a flat surface. That also makes it impossible to clean.
Hoard enough stuff and you've built a fortress around yourself and you have shut everyone out.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
Isolation is a negative feedback loop of hoarding.
Leaving someone to hoard causes difficult problems. Most first responders like firefighters and EMTs consider hoards to be fire hazards and dangerous (though the EMT on here would dispute this, though I have no idea why).
There are also problems of pests like rats, bedbugs, and scabies. These flourish in hoards.
There is the issue of disease, this is especially true when hoarders have animals.
Neighbors often despise hoarders because a hoard brings down property values and makes selling a home hard (and you often want to sell your home and move when you live next to a hoarder!).
Hoarders often disregard the space of others. Like when I was a kid I had a closet in my room. But I could not use it. My mom appropriated it and hoarded it up.
This can happen on the neighborhood level where hoarders encroach on others' space.
Well, it certainly can. But for me I just clean off the counter and the coffee table in the span of a couple minutes. There are only so many things that could be on there anyway because I own so few.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
.
What I was getting at was that once the hoarder becomes a danger to themselves or others then the state needs to step in and clean up the hoard.
I would disagree that a hoarder can live the way they want until it hurts someone else. Think about if you lived right next to a hoarder and their tinderbox just went up in flames. Your house could get caught in that. People could get hurt and die. This has happened!
So the state needs to make sure it does not go this far.
As for a person, let's say, who marries a hoarder. They have to accept that the person is just a hoarder. The odds of them getting appreciably better being so small, all one can do is say: "If you can't beat them, join them."
The person could also leave and get divorced, which is what I would do.
Ultralite, if you were talking to me, you can ask me anything, I can always decline to answer.
i think you and I have different definition of "hoarder". Perhaps because I see it from the inside, and you see it from the outside. I would actually call rose quartz an extremely high functioning hoarder - because of the mind chatter. That to me, the impulse to hoard things, is the nature of hoarding. To you, the key element is the actual hoard.
There is a linein the pink panther movie about "yuri the trainer who trains." You see the hoarders who hoard.
I also think you can have a hoard without being a hoarder. Maybe you were depressed, or broke, or illl, or just completely overwhelmed - but if you aren't actually a hoarder, someone could just come clean all that up and teach you some good habits and you'd just be grateful.
what if you collect things but don't display them because the person you live with doesn't like them? When I lived with my parents I had 2 wide wide floor to ceiling shelves for my dolls. Mom and I both liked them. Dh says "not in here" until we run out of "in here's" and I fight for some space. (Yes, they would now overflow the original shelves)
"things I like" - for example, I like dolls. I enjoy looking at them and having them around and checking out how they are made and their clothes and the sculptural aspect of hands and faces. I chose which ones to collect by "I like this one" (and it fails under my discretionary budget) not by any hard categories or search for diversity.
.
I have had a few collections and like IL I knew when the time was over and I never got carried away. From my teapot collection I have one and from my dolls I have 3. I let everyone know I am done collecting so no gifts. Actually we have stopped gift giving with most people. The older I gt the more cleaner and lighter I like my space and I also have realized it is so much easier to clean when shit isn't everywhere. My 3rd MIL was a wonderful person but a hoarder. She wanted while she went on a week trip for us to replace her bedroom floor. So we cleaned the room and kept what my DH knew was important, trashed a bunch of shit and gave her a new floor, and matching bedspread, curtains, sheets, lamp etc something she had never had before. When she got home she was speechless. Probably because she expected a new floor only and wondered where all her crap went. However, she kept that room clean until she died. Without me our house would be a disaster. My DH would never put stuff away. I limit his junk to his office, garage and shed. However, he has noted that it is nice to have a home that you can invite someone over at any time and need not worry about the house. When people keep collecting in spite of having too much junk it is really sad.
Okay, what if you husband said: "Clean up this hoard -- and I mean really clean it -- or I am leaving you and moving away!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
What would you do?
Or what if one or all your kids said: "Mom, clean up this hoard -- and I mean really clean it -- or we will never speak again; there will be total disowning!"
What would you do?
Very intriguing. I will certainly think this over. So interesting!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
So what about this? When I encounter a bobber when I am out fishing, I will often want to keep it. I have actually grabbed a few and kept them to use, especially if they are the design I like. When I throw away some food scraps I feel a little hesitant because I know they could be composted somewhere. Do these types of thoughts make me a hoarder deep down inside?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Could happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I am curious what makes you yield to your husband on this usage of space. Why is he the boss?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Let's say your husband built you a huge unattached showroom for all your dolls. It could hold and display all the ones you have and another 50 dolls you are yet to acquire. Would you put them on display in that showroom? Would you invite people from far and wide to come see them?
I like things, I suppose. But I don't love things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I like my bicycle (though it could have a more comfortable seat. haha). I like my fish pole. For instance, when I bought it I looked it over and thought: "Ultralight. 5.5 feet. Uses 2-6 pound test line. The 'fish skin' design looks cool. Feel comfortable in my hands." One could say I liked it. But there are bazillions out there just like it. When it snaps, I will throw it away and get a new one. And I don't feel any need to buy a collection of this poles. I had two poles before and it just ruined the slow pace of fishing for me.
Same goes for my bike. I took a bike repair class. Some of the people in there owned like 15 or 20 bikes. I actively do not want another bike. Just one bike is fine.
Not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseQuartz
Sorry about your grandmother.
This is intriguing too! People collect, are amused by collecting, but then just quit or set a limit. They don't hoard. Hmmmm....Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
Bless your heart. I'd be outta there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
It really is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
I had some friends that there house was a mess due to illness I thought. It was a 4000 sq ft home and i was still working f.t. So I went a bunch of weekends to work on it and only got a few rooms done. Guess what within 6 months you would have never known I was there. Neither wanted to throw away their stuff. She even had a note taped to a lamp that her parents had given to her 40 years before. Really? Ugh! I knew then that i had wasted my time. When he was sick we would have to babysit her and then go over and help get rid of stuff. Then we couldn't leave it at their house or even with dementia she would pull out of garbage. In the end the family hired a firm to take everything and clean the house.
Tragic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
Although at one point when they were forced to move from their big house to a 1000 sq ft rental they let me sell a bunch of their stuff and we made 2k for them with the condition they not be there. It was very very sad. They were awesome wonderful people that would do anything for you. But they couldn't have company because it was too embarrassing although at one point before it was too bad they would entertain. I think the illness (so many years of cancer for her and depression for him before his cancer and her dementia) and their tendencies pushed them over the edge.
Ultralite, my family wouldn't say that because they love me and they understand what is going on with me. Anymore than my husband would say "do 50 push ups or I'm leaving." (I can't do a push up)
if if they had, I would have just collapsed in sorrow, because i would have been as capable of doing that as of doing the push ups.
what they did say is "living like this makes us unhappy." And then they listened when I said why I did it and what I needed. And they are supportive, like somebody lifting your hips while you do the first push up and still being there every day even when it takes you months to do one alone supportive. And they see that I keep working at it. And I may never get there, but I get better. And they know that I really want them to be happy and I keep trying.
which is a lot of why dh is in charge of decorating - but not really, it's really a compromise. "His" room has two chairs, a desk, a bookshelf with books and empty space, a small table, a stereo, a guitar, and a yoga mat. There are a few pictures on the wall. I have to ask before I carry anything in except his mail, as in "can I come sit with you with my book?" Dh, "yes. Don't leave it in here." "My" room is the cluttered messy basement and sometimes he has to remind me to clean it up. "Our" rooms are in between, but he just really doesn't like the dolls. I don't let him hang guns on the wall either.
if he gave me a room like that, I would display the dolls and spend a lot of time there, but I wouldn't invite people in because I'm an introvert and don't like people. Only my mom and anybody else I know if I found out they liked dolls. My nieces for sure! I would have them in to play! They are coming for my daughter's wedding and I really want to show them some of the dolls.
Hmmm... interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
So if they did say something like "dehoard or we're done!" your family would fracture. That is rough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
The fact that you listened to them at all is actually pretty dang amazing. My mom would certainly say: "Like it or lump it!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Zoning. I hear this is a popular strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
You don't like people? Very telling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Why does your husband dislike the dolls so much?
I can't live in a messy house so give my DH his space that I don't enter because it is messy. I also don't clean his office. When we first got together it was obvious I was alot neater so we compromised. He is neater then he was and I give him spaces to be messy. I don't need to be in his office, garage or shed so I stay out. I was in 2 bad marriages and we have a great marriage and have lots of fun together. My 2nd husband was a neat freak to the extreme but was a jerk and treated me badly. Also things have been known to disappear if #3 is gone for a week or so out of town and never misses a thing. What does that tell you?
I always say that he has to die first because I will me mad if I am dead and my beautiful house is trashed:~)
Man, if I offloaded some of my mom's stuff when she was gone and she found out she would lose it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
And if she left on a trip for a few weeks, which she and my dad do now with their campervan, and my sis and I cleaned the place for real...
I think my mom could try to hurt herself.