I think ineffective is what I've observed. From my perch, over here in grey rainy Seattle and at 4am, oy vey, both you & Peggy are talking at each other rather than to or with each other. I faulted the medium because I believe you're both good, kind, smart women who probably work towards connection and understanding in your lives.

I wonder what this convo would be like between two close friends... what curiosity might emerge about the others' stance, what inquiry into difference, what uncovering of shared understndings as well as dramatic differences? I am quite aware that I say this having taken a pretty unrelentingly closed stance a time or two in this forum! So I do understand the passion and convictions that lead to expressing a strong stance. (thinking of some of my responses to Alan, for instance.)

I know that I have regard for both of you, and the postings have begun to be onerous to read... and I just wonder if a different approach is possible.

K. Sleepy middle-of-the night typings here...