I am *reading* your post. You expect me to "read into" your post that you MEANT that you felt these children (poor kids!) were sadly not being encourage to "pursue their dreams!" beyond what their community values or they would be shunned!

But here is what you WROTE:






Originally Posted by peggy

I'm not talking about the quaint window dressing we all see, but the realities of the life. We can all admire simple living and buggies and oil lamps and farming. I do. But I admire it as a CHOICE, and not as some edict from god. Or rather the leading elder of the order, who has surprising latitude to enforce his interpretation of the 'rules'.
It's not a choice.

What you wrote:
It's not a choice.



What I wrote:
8th grade, despite some people's thought, does not prepare you for the realities of modern life. Sure, it prepares you to wait on tables, or scrub toilets, but not much else.

What you wrote:
Really, I'm reading into this?




What I wrote:
These people don't just have a comfortable relationship with computers or technology, and although you say you know those who do, we know that isn't the norm.

What you wrote:
"we" do? evidence?

Oh, wait, here is your evidence:




What I wrote:
It just isn't. That's their whole thing, remember?

What you wrote:
Obviously, you are very ignorant of the amish. Do I know about the amish? DO i remember? Yes. What about you?




What I wrote:
Being shunned by your community, and even your parents is a very big pressure on young people. People do what they know, largely, in this closed community as well as the greater modern community. It's a whole lot easier to just go with the flow rather than seek further education, without family support, separate yourself from the community you grew up with knowing this community now say you as a traitor, and cast yourself into an unknown, unfamiliar world.

What you wrote:
Yes, and obviously this is not a problem of just the amish, as you write. If this was your whole point, why make all of the other ignorant, condescending statements that you made?




What I wrote:
They can certainly choose this, that's their right. It's also my right to say I think it's a rather non-productive community at the very least, and terribly regressive(I acknowledged later this was a typo. I meant repressive) at the most.

What you wrote:
Yes, That's right. I'm reading into your opinion that you find these people "non productive and backwards."





So, if a kid wants to be a yoga instructor? How would they fare there? Do you think they could stay in their community and do this? I don't think so. What about being an artist? or a Musician? Or a scientist? And what if this kid was a woman? This community has a fairly narrow focus on approved careers. And if you want something different? Sorry. You have to choose between your parents, friends, and community and the thing that floats your boat.

what you wrote:
As evidenced, a kid can choose to leave, and they may not be fully shunned by their community. I've given several examples.





I don't think I'm being condescending. Anyone who has lived an extremely sheltered life would be overwhelmed by modern American life.


What you wrote:
Culture shock is not a terminal disease. Culture shock can be overcome, and in most instances, is. And even if it is overcome, often people choose to go back to their original culture/environment anyway. It is, perhaps, a more educated choice.





We have fundamentalist who won't let their kids go to public school because they fear the messages and ideas 'out there', but these people still have TVs and magazines and presumably function in the modern world. Take even those modern things away and you have a pretty sheltered person, innocent and ignorant of modern ways. Mind you, that doesn't equal to stupid, it just means what it says, ignorant of the ways.

What you wrote:
Right, and ignorance can be overcome.




What I wrote:
Do you think Amish sit around the table talking politics?

What you wrote:
Yes.




What I wrote:
Or modern music, movies, the art museum, fencing, world languages, science, world politics, advances in medicine, business, or a zillion other things we talk about and take for granted everyone knows even a little about.

What you wrote:
Yes, to many of these things (not music or movies, but pretty much the rest of it).




What I wrote:
Michael Jackson. You probably don't listen to him, or even admire his music, but you know who he is. And if someone makes a reference to him, in what ever context, you probably get it. That's a cultural reference.

What you wrote:
Right, without knowing all the cultural references of another culture, all is lost. I live in NZ. I don't get 90% of cultural references here. Seriously.

Poor me, so backwards and unproductive and not able to make a choice about how to live!




What I wrote:
And there are a million of those we don't even think about that color our everyday lives. . . . How many Amish do you think have read 1984? or Animal farm? of Atlas Shrugged? Or Catcher in the Rye?

What you wrote:
Right, because without these things, we just can't have a good life in the modern world, or have a real choice in regards to deciding not to continue in modern life or their own traditions.




What I wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to demonize them, but I'm also not romanticizing them either. They are what they are. A fairly closed, strict religious sect, quaint buggies aside.

What you wrote:
So, this is what you are talking about?

That these people are ignorant, non-productive, and backward and incapable of making it in the modern world, and because of that, incapable of having a choice in regards to whether or not to continue in the modern world or be amish?

Demonized view? no.

Ignorant and condescending? yes.



Here is the entire post that you presume to damn me with. Tell me exactly what is ignorant and condescending? You're pretty much the only one calling names here. I stand by all my words. I admitted in a later post that I meant repressive, not regressive, (although regressive simply means opposing progress) and if you had actually read my posts instead of damning me, you would know that. There is nothing denigrating here, except your personal attack on me.

You seem to agree with me that they don't have the cultural references, the background in literature, education, or experience we all share in this MODERN world, which is what I'm talking about. I never said a person can't learn. You INFERED that. I just said an 8th grade education does not prepare you to live successfully in THIS MODERN WORLD. And it doesn't. That isn't denigrating. It's reality. And if your culture doesn't embrace or value education beyond 13, then you are hard pressed to 'go it alone'. I never said some don't. Again, your 'interpretation' of what I said. I just said it was very difficult. And the faster this world speeds ahead, the harder it will be.

You are so invested in making these people educated, and forward thinking, and hip and connected, you've got them more savvy than a New Yorker! You can't even allow them to be what they are, a closed religious sect that live a simple, fairly austere (simple, plain, disciplined) life. I would suggest you are the one being condescending. I accept them for who and what they are. But apparently that bothers you.


I own my words. They are not denigrating and I won't apologize or re-phrase them to fit your world view. Sorry Zoe, you are just going to have to accept that.

Now, if you want to discuss the merits of an 8th grade education,(dropping out at 13) and how it's doesn't prepare you to function successfully in a modern, 21st century world, that's another thread we can start.