Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?

[bae]

If he's found innocent of any wrongdoing even though the young man had no weapon...ummmmm.....we truly live in a third world country.

As I mentioned, there are many circumstances in which homicide is justifiable, even if the killed party does not have a weapon. You seem really hung up on this "no weapon" business.

You need to know the facts to reach a just conclusion.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I just wanted to add that I see issues here beyond the killing of the young man. The teargasing for two hours after the crowd had dispersed Wednesday night, the riot gear, armored vehicles, the arrests of the two journalists (for me personally this one is the height of stupidity as these people are well connected and can inflict serious financial harm via the courts - duh?) Obviously such common sense was beyond the arresting officers. All of this is overkill and is not going to help the Ferguson police department defend itself as it leads to the perception of overreacting and excessive force.

Maybe as I have said before some good will come of this. Maybe people will stand up to the police more and not accept this behavior. Going forward any kind of overkill is going to be on social media - police everywhere need to understand this if they wish to protect and collect their pensions. I also believe there will be more litigation against police departments going forward and possibly less fear of the police in general (if) their power is flattened via large settlements and social media. And possibly people will demand less militarization of the police - how much of a police state do we look like now due to these images of riot geared cops throwing tear gas around peaceful protestors? Maybe some good will come of this, I'm hoping so, anyway. Rob

[bae]

I just read in USA Today 6 feet 4 inches and 292 lbs just like you said. That still doesn't equate with weapon in my book,...

Then you know very little about use of force. Or disparity of force. Or strength and speed. Or what happens when someone that big and strong closes to grapple with you. Or hits you. Or struggles with you for your weapon.

I weigh about 275, I work out 3-4 hours a day, and, while wearing 70 pounds of gear, I can pick up a 200+ pound rescue dummy with 50-70 pounds of gear on it with one hand and hoist it out of the way. While wearing breathing apparatus. I've also studied martial arts every day for 35+ years. If I were to hit a little fellow like that clerk, he'd stay hit. If I were to grapple with a police officer for his weapon, it would be a bad day for the officer (especially as I am a certified weapons retention trainer and know all the tricks and their counters...).

You can die from a single punch, or from landing poorly from a simple throw.

You are not compelled when defending yourself to wait-and-see how good the other fellow's punch is before deciding you need to up your game a bit. There's no "equal force" requirement in most jurisdictions I am aware of.

This isn't rocket science, there's plenty of law concerning this area, it doesn't work the way you think it does, Rob.

[gimmethesimplelife]

As I mentioned, there are many circumstances in which homicide is justifiable, even if the killed party does not have a weapon. You seem really hung up on this "no weapon" business.

You need to know the facts to reach a just conclusion.

The problem here Bae is - how many people out there agree with me, no weapon = don't kill? You might be surprised. Perhaps the laws need to be revisited to save lives from overzealous American police. Rob

[peggy]

That's a big fella for sure. 292 and 6'4".
If only this COULD be black and white. But it has all shades of grey all over it. Unfortunately.
The police did overreact and some in the crowd did loot. No one is blameless here. But the riot and over reaction of the police are separate from the killing of this young man. These are really two different stories that need to be addressed. Seperately.

I do think the cop acted wrongly. I don't know what he was thinking or feeling...probably fear as that would make him draw his gun and shoot. I'm pretty sure he didn't leave the house with the intention of killing an unarmed man. I'm also pretty sure he knows he was wrong in his actions. He is supposed to be able to handle the situation in a cool calm manner, and not like just some George Zimmerman cop wanna be.

The young man, apparently, wasn't just some innocent good guy walking down the street black. He did just rob a store. He did threaten and strong arm the clerk. He wasn't the teddy bear his friends/family have tried to portray him as. Sure, he might have been a good student, and a nice guy to friends/family, etc..and getting ready for college, etc..but, he DID just rob a store. Good guys don't do that. They don't. Thugs do that. Punks do that. Bullies do that...especially when they do it in broad daylight essentially telling the clerk 'I'm gonna take this and you can't do anything about it'. That's not the act of a desperate person trying to feed his family or 'just get by'. That's not the act of a person driven to desperation by his crummy lot in life. That's the act of a thug. period.

The cop didn't know he was unarmed. The cop was probably scared by the guys size. Yet it would seem the cop blew it.
If only it could be black and white. It would be so easy if the kid was the good/off to college kid some would believe, or the cop was the evil George Zimmerman others would believe. I'm guessing neither is what each side would have us believe. Or as bad as the other side would make them be. Very complicated. Very sad.

[bae]

The problem here Bae is - how many people out there agree with me, no weapon = don't kill?

Hardly a useful argument. 45% of the American people believe astrology is science.(*)

Perhaps the laws need to be revisited to save lives from overzealous American police. Rob

You don't even know what the exceptions are, or why they are in place, or why those concepts have been part of our legal history for *thousands* of years, yet you advocate throwing them away "to save lives from overzealous American police".

Amazing.

(*)

[gimmethesimplelife]

That's a big fella for sure. 292 and 6'4".
If only this COULD be black and white. But it has all shades of grey all over it. Unfortunately.
The police did overreact and some in the crowd did loot. No one is blameless here. But the riot and over reaction of the police are separate from the killing of this young man. These are really two different stories that need to be addressed. Seperately.

I do think the cop acted wrongly. I don't know what he was thinking or feeling...probably fear as that would make him draw his gun and shoot. I'm pretty sure he didn't leave the house with the intention of killing an unarmed man. I'm also pretty sure he knows he was wrong in his actions. He is supposed to be able to handle the situation in a cool calm manner, and not like just some George Zimmerman cop wanna be.

The young man, apparently, wasn't just some innocent good guy walking down the street black. He did just rob a store. He did threaten and strong arm the clerk. He wasn't the teddy bear his friends/family have tried to portray him as. Sure, he might have been a good student, and a nice guy to friends/family, etc..and getting ready for college, etc..but, he DID just rob a store. Good guys don't do that. They don't. Thugs do that. Punks do that. Bullies do that...especially when they do it in broad daylight essentially telling the clerk 'I'm gonna take this and you can't do anything about it'. That's not the act of a desperate person trying to feed his family or 'just get by'. That's not the act of a person driven to desperation by his crummy lot in life. That's the act of a thug. period.

The cop didn't know he was unarmed. The cop was probably scared by the guys size. Yet it would seem the cop blew it.
If only it could be black and white. It would be so easy if the kid was the good/off to college kid some would believe, or the cop was the evil George Zimmerman others would believe. I'm guessing neither is what each side would have us believe. Or as bad as the other side would make them be. Very complicated. Very sad.

I'm very much in agreement with your take here Peggy and I do agree that neither side is innocent and the young man was a thug - nice guys don't rob stores and intimidate clerks. Full agreement there. I like how you understand that neither side is without blame or fault here and are not auto-siding with the police. That cop did overreact and he did blow it. Big time. As I said a few posts back, I think unsavory facts are going to revealed about both sides here and due to social media, there's really no hiding from this anymore. Here's hoping for some kind of justice if such is possible and here's hoping this cop is not auto-protected by the old boys network. I rather think the results won't be pretty if that does take place. But once again, lots of gray and very complicated and very sad as you stated. I couldn't agree more.

Good to see you here again BTW, it's been awhile since I have run across your pixels. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Hardly a useful argument. 45% of the American people believe astrology is science.(*)



You don't even know what the exceptions are, or why they are in place, or why those concepts have been part of our legal history for *thousands* of years, yet you advocate throwing them away "to save lives from overzealous American police".

Amazing.

(*)

I believe in the dignity of human life above all else, Bae. If laws need to be revisited to see if they are still merited, I'm all for it. I don't see it as throwing them away - much more like updating. Rob

[bae]

Rob - what differentiates justifiable homicide from murder? Be specific. Do any of those items speak to human dignity?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob - what differentiates justifiable homicide from murder? Be specific. Do any of those items speak to human dignity?

I'm not seeing much respect for human dignity in the fact that this young man, thug that he was - and I do agree he was a thug, robbing the store was not cool - was killed by the police even though he had no weapon and put his hands in the air before his death to make this clear. If you want specifics Bae, I don't have them for you.....I don't work in that world. I work much more in a world of dignity/respect/compromise and not a scientific world of numbers and charts which I don't much trust anyway. My approach and beliefs are obviously different from yours - that does not make either of us right or wrong on this one as there is just too much grey area here as was stated above. And I do think further unsavory facts are going to be released regarding both sides.

Though I can say there's one issue I have that has not been raised yet. And maybe this is why I feel so strongly the way I do. I hold the police to a higher standard - A. they get pensions that most of us can only dream of, and b. they can detain and arrest me and mess with my life if they so desire. Perhaps A. doesn't work for a lot of other people but B. can happen to anyone it seems these days. Google for instances of innocent people being killed in their homes by SWAT teams that have went to the wrong address. For that reason alone I fear and distrust the police, and hope to never encounter them, not even in a positive kind of way. I'd just as soon not engage with them period. Rob