Iris lilies, how are things in your hood?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Wow. Just Wow. "All the messed up Americans who are crazy enough to stay here" was paraphrasing an argument Rob makes (often). And I was just saying that they may have personal reasons for doing so like him. If I expected an argument with anyone it would be WITH ROB, because I WAS AFTERALL gently (I hope) criticizing his repeated argument on everyone not leaving as they should (everyone on this board has heard the argument). And it's often not a philosophical political commitment at all, living somewhere is occupying (no not Occupying , my gawd if people want to read that in too then this board grows dumber by the second, just fricken living one exists and it's usually in some country is what I'm saying) space. Not many people look at their lives and say "where should I live, lets see which country most aligns with my philosophical beliefs now ... I think I'll move to Norway ..." Is some people do, good for them I guess!

I can't believe this thread either. So people talk to police and they conclude not all police are bad. Fair enough. Do they also talk to communities that feel they are being abused by police? I suspect they might see things differently if they did and really took it in. Because the issue is not how police treat rich white or even middle class white people afterall (not to deny that they may have some cases of legitimate police brutality sometimes as well).

APN, I am not offended by your post and to me, your post was completely in line. And I agree with your sentiments towards this thread - I have a hard time believing it myself. I am amazed that so many posters here seem to have basic faith in the police and the courts - that was permanently taken from me years ago. I don't see how I could ever get this back. Period.

But I also know something else. I could take a bus going north a few miles to Camelback Road and be surrounded by a much higher social class and very different thinking, and in that neighborhood, yeah, people are going to tend to have faith in the police and the courts. Sometimes I take the bus up to Camelback Road to do mystery shops up at an upscale mall there and I wonder why I don't need a passport to come visit - the changes are that noticeable to me that it seems like a different country. The language is the same but then again it really isn't. It chills me sometimes to be up there as I feel if that kind of thinking continues ( in this case having basic faith in the police and the courts) how is any change realistically going to happen? When I speak of having lost faith in America, some of what I mean is this - this not questioning or being willing to even acknowledge that such rot exists. When I get on the bus to go home, I usually feel relieved as I could never live in the midst of such thinking - I just don't fit in there at all. At least where I live I don't feel this to that level, and here, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with any basic faith in police or the courts. People are just struggling to get through life and keep current with their bills where I live and hoping to avoid trouble. A very different America than from the one a few miles north for sure. Rob

[Alan]

... A very different America than from the one a few miles north for sure. Rob

Which one is the outlier?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Which one is the outlier?

Good question. To me, living in a low wage state, the outlier is the neighborhood three miles north of me. It is not very representative of what most Arizonans know as reality and what they live through. Also if you believe government statistics, that Arizona is shrinking - by the government's own admission - and my Arizona is growing. Rob

[Alan]

Good question. To me, living in a low wage state, the outlier is the neighborhood three miles north of me. It is not very representative of what most Arizonans know as reality and what they live through. Rob

So, what makes you think wages have more to do with it than culture? Or, do you believe that one influences the other?

Also, if economics represent outlook, would higher salaries change opinion? And if so, which opinion could be considered correct?

[gimmethesimplelife]

So, what makes you think wages have more to do with it than culture? Or, do you believe that one influences the other?

What you have coming in - unless you have significant assets - pretty much dictates where you can afford to live. But I do believe culture has something to do with it, too.....If I won the lottery tomorrow, I wouldn't move to that neighborhood north of me even if I could afford to - I'd never fit in there as what I have learned in life does mesh well with that kind of thinking up there. I'd miss being around people who were real and know what struggle is about, and I'd miss organizing neighborhood trips to Mexico so that people could get dental care or health care Medicaid won't cover. There is so much I'd miss being up in that "nicer" neighborhood. I'd probably constantly take the bus back to where I live now to fit in. Pretty much my life has been about finding ways around struggles that people who live up there are not going to begin to understand unless they have been laid off and lost their insurance and found themselves running very low on cash. Then they might "get it". Rob

[Yossarian]

surrounded by a much higher social class

There you go bringing class into it again

[iris lilies]

There you go bringing class into it again

"watery tarts" indeed! haha

[catherine]

I've been reading this thread with interest, with nothing to contribute at all, but I'm watching a Derrick Jensen YouTube of his book Endgame in which he posits the premises in the book and here is one of his premises:

Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims.

I'm not saying this has anything to do with Ferguson, but just in general, could it be true?

[Yossarian]

See the video above..


"Now we see the violence inherent in the system.... Help! Help! I'm being repressed"

[iris lilies]

I've been reading this thread with interest, with nothing to contribute at all, but I'm watching a Derrick Jensen YouTube of his book Endgame in which he posits the premises in the book and here is one of his premises:



I'm not saying this has anything to do with Ferguson, but just in general, could it be true?

Hard to know since in this case, Ferguson, (which your post may or may not have anything to do with) the feitishization taking place is of the thug. Teddy bears, MadDog bottles, flowers, etc laid out in the street at the scene of Mike Brown's death, rioting and destrcution in his honor, and chanting unique slogans to evoke only him--that is fetish. And more: a "family" autopsy by a celebrity shaman coronor for hire Dr. Baden performed on his body, and famous shake down shamans Sharpton and J Jackson paying tribute to him--all supporting this fetish.

He is a thug who, within a 15 minute period, robbed a store and threatened a man a third of his size and had physical altercation with a policeman which resulted in his death.

Are you saying that Jensen's theory is illustrative of thug society in this way: in the thug community the 292 lb thugs are high up there in the hierarchy, and in many black communities that is true. Who runs the corners? The drug lords and their thug lieutenants. I didn't think Ferguson was that far gone, but perhaps it is. Mike Brown was an up and coming thug, a newly emergent strong and powerful guy, a prince of thugs you could say. So yeah, his fetishization fits with Jensen's theory.