I haven't read any Derrick Jensen works but would fully expect his societal "hierarchy" to not have Mike Brown near the top.Originally Posted by catherine
I just turned the idea upside down because I found it more interesting than a traditional concept of hierarchy.
Last edited by iris lilies; 8-25-14 at 4:59pm.
Maybe I should start a new thread on this, but here's my take on things. I know there are some who will call me racist........but what I am saying isn't necessarily a value judgement about any certain race.
I know there are lots of communities that get along just fine with mixed races and cultures.........but I think it can be a huge problem in other areas.
And when I say what I'm about to, isn't a racist thing............but rather an observation I've been making about alot of different countries and cultures. I'm thinking that the problem starts when the different cultures try to be all-together. I think alot of people want to come to the U.S. for the freedoms........but then they use that to demand that they can continue their various beliefs and cultures.........which may be in direct opposition to the culture that is already there. I'm seeing this in alot of European countries. Countries that have had an incredibly beautiful, rich cultural heritage, and it's being over-run with other cultures coming in and diluted the previous/majority culture and causing discord.
And Yes.........I know my forefathers ruined the Native American culture. I know this, and it saddens me........so don't reduce everything I'm saying to that. Although.........it IS a perfect example of one culture obliterating another one.
Anyhow.........to the Ferguson problem. Don't you think that the problem IS racial/cultural? This community (and many others like it all over) live/behave/talk, etc., in a way that is uncomfortable to the Caucasian culture
around them? I think alot of our troubles boil down to the fact that perhaps we just will never be able to create a Utopian society, where "the lion lays with the lamb" so to speak. I think we still have primitive wiring but our present society, in order to maintain law and order, has to somehow deal with that....with laws that make everyone equal. We aren't equal. We might have very different cultural tendencies that some people can overlook, and others are offended by it.
Some people say it's an economic problem.........but I'm just wondering if our attempts to get everyone to "just get along" with each other, is too lofty a goal.
"Civilized" societies seem to try to distance themselves as much as possible from animal behavior. And accepting everyone of all different cultures seems to be a good idea........but is it working against our very hard-wired nature?
Alan.....if you think this should be a new thread, please feel free to start one.....maybe with the title "When cultures collide".....or something like that.
DH's grandmother came over from europe around 1915. He keeps saying how much immigrants wanted to fit into the American culture (while peacefully sharing their various cultural ways....cooking, social things, etc.) But today, it seems like the cultures are demanding to keep all their previous culture and not have to be like the white folk.
I know we held the blacks in slavery, so they weren't willing immigrants. But it seems like so many black communities are everywhere, and they don't have alot of interest in being any different. The choices some of the young black men are choosing only seem to involve violence and ignorance.
Maybe the white police get really tired of seeing this kind of behavior day after day after day. Just like French people might get tired of seeing Islamic behavior......and Italy might get tired of seeing North African behavior, etc., etc., etc.
I'm rambling. My point is, perhaps we're expecting too much to think that extremely different cultures can live in harmony?
Like I've said in another thread somewhere here.........I like trying to understand what brings us to the present situations.
Whatever we're doing now to make it all work, seems fairly futile to me.
I feel a littlebittybit intimidated by this discussion. You Kids obviously all have earned a Doctorate in Sociology, and I just have a B.S. The main difference between a BS and a BA in Sociology is the difference between dissecting a cat in Biology Lab, and sort-of learning Spanish. Plus, I am full of B.S. Which did you do? Discuss amongst yourselves. One thing I noticed is, that the Establishment in Ferguson is all white, while the citizenry is 70% black. I figure there is resentment and contempt for authority because of some (perceived)negative effects from it. I can understand why, in a relatively high-crime area, the law enforcement personnel might become jaded and callused. However, if it were the other way around--black domination, white majority citizen base--and tough cops--the whites might not be comfortable with that, either. Meanwhile, in areas like where I live that don't begin to have this type of situation, the good citizens harshly condemn the "ghetto behavior". Yet, this community which is 94% Caucasian, has had a number of people shot by police through the years, and though some were questionable, they were all cleared as justified! No demonstrations, no backlash----and no reform! Seems like one characteristic value of the Southern USA Bible Belt is to Respect Authority--almost to a fault. Years ago(1960's-70's, there was a Sheriff in the next county who was notorious for "Kinging" young guys he caught while on patrol. Just beat the heck out of them with his flashlight, and let them go. He lost the election, but ran again and was re-elected. Never got in trouble for it, and lived well into old age.
Last edited by Packy; 8-25-14 at 11:16am.
Once again, I'm amazed at a couple of posters here who seem to expect me to go along and give the police a free pass even though I have witnessed police brutality in my neighborhood in Phoenix against Hispanic neighbors. Sorry, no can do. Witnessing that pretty much severed any potential trust in American police or courts for me permanently. There is no going back once you see something like this and you learn exactly what America is all about. I would agree that not all cops are like this - I do believe that - the problem is as I've said before that too many are and when they pull (fill in the expletive) they tend to be above the law and consequences. That's why instant pension loss works for me so well. I'd really be willing to take personal time and picket and protest for such to take place.
I came across something scathingly brilliant online last night - someone suggested that with all the lawsuits coming up due to over the top police behavior in Ferguson, that the settlements come out of the pension fund for the Ferguson police department. I'd be down with that, too, and it would create peer pressure to behave as one of the big perks of being a cop would disappear. I think this idea is even better than mine as it would allow for due process - and since the eyes of the world are on this case, any perception of the Ferguson police being above the law will have international and economic consequences. It's about time the police were put under the microscope like that, especially after what I have witnessed here in Phoenix and after what the police have been pulling after the shooting death of Michael Brown.
Something else that is wonderful about Ferguson and how heavy handed the cops have been since the shooting? There is less hesitation to go online and to the media and to post on social media about police misdeeds, and there is much higher of a chance of police heavy handedness getting international attention now. This is wonderful I believe. I also believe that there will be more pressure on police departments to behave once the numerous lawsuits are settled in Ferguson. Maybe the long era of the police being above the law will be coming to an end? We can hope. Rob
You make two points over and over that I will now address, but won't argue against, because they are too generaL
1) Rob: There is police brutality in the U.S., there is inappropriate action by police.
iris:No kidding.
2) Rob:I do not trust police.
iris: OK.
My worldview doesn't have to be your worldview and you may form you own opinion, but I'm not going to argue with point #2 because that's your worldview and you are entitled to it.
The generalities in #1 are too extreme to have a conversation. Police brutality and lying and graft and corruption all happen, sure. It's a good thing to have watchdogs watching the watchdogs, and I regularly see news reports of Internal Affairs investigations in my local police force. So from whee I sit, there IS regular review of police action. Didn't you watch The Shield? Vince finally got what was coming to him, you know. It just took seven seasons.
You bring up an interesting point Packy - about respecting authority in the South. I myself lived in Georgia for a year - I went to go live with an aunt and an uncle when my mother remarried years ago and things just were not working out well. I just called my aunt and uncle and they said they'd take me in and my Mom said stay for six months and let me see how things work out here so I went. It is a different mentality there as to authority and I had had not all the realizations I speak of now - I was 14 at the time - though the basics had dawned on my by then. Very scary to me how in smaller Southern places like where I was living - Dalton, GA in my case - the police truly do get away with quite a bit and people just sweep it under the rug. I'm so glad to be out of there, I really am. Rob
Vic, not Vince. I know because my wife had a crush on the character, a bad boy with a heart of gold (says she).Didn't you watch The Shield? Vince finally got what was coming to him, you know. It just took seven seasons.
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
The current Ferguson mayor ran unopposed in 2011. That's what happens in real life, the guy who shows up gets elected.
One really has to give a shit and put some resources behind that in order to make any real change. But making a totem of Mad Dog bottles and grubby teddy bears in the street is so much easier.
IL, Thank You. You have made it clear here that you are not just handing out a free pass to the police. I really respect that. RobYou make two points over and over that I will now address, but won't argue against, because they are too generaL
1) Rob: There is police brutality in the U.S., there is inappropriate action by police.
iris:No kidding.
2) Rob:I do not trust police.
iris: OK.
My worldview doesn't have to be your worldview and you may form you own opinion, but I'm not going to argue with point #2 because that's your worldview and you are entitled to it.
The generalities in #1 are too extreme to have a conversation. Police brutality and lying and graft and corruption all happen, sure. It's a good thing to have watchdogs watching the watchdogs, and I regularly see news reports of Internal Affairs investigations in my local police force. So from whee I sit, there IS regular review of police action. Didn't you watch The Shield? Vince finally got what was coming to him, you know. It just took seven seasons.
I think you have a point here and if he runs unopposed next time around, you'd have an even better point. Interesting to see if he will run unopposed next time, no? Rob
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