Thoughts on Ryan as VP?

[gimmethesimplelife]

So you would want some consideration for removing yourself as a liability from the national balance sheet. Wouldn’t it be fairer to compensate the receiving country rather than you for assuming the new liability you would create for them? And if you’re making the move to obtain a richer package of entitlements, wouldn’t it be fair for them to ask you to pay them for the step-up in the present value of the future government benefits you’re pursuing?

If you have followed my posts you would see - sorry this is starting to sound sarcastic and such is not my intention - my goal is to emigrate somewhere with cheap health care perhaps in Latin America and pay cash for what I need or perhaps buy my own much less less less expensive insurance. What I would get out of this is removal from what I consider to be a healthcare system that is all about money and not people. Also a slower pace of life and perhaps a little more meaning, though I do think one can search for that here also. I would start some kind of business and pay into another system, so I would expect whatever benefits due to me in said country for doing so, which of course I would have researched in advance. I plan on paying INTO another system, not just being a liabilty. But your idea does intrigue me - if said money for my goodbye were to be paid to government X and never cross my hands - fine - as long as it applies to the monies I need to bring in with me to obtain a legal business visa in country X. Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

Maybe it's just a sign of the times. That so many people bow at the altar of big government, expecting to be rewarded for voting for the right people

It's no more an expectation than anything, it's a hope that old age programs will be there when we are old, no more or less irrational that the hope that the 401k won't tank.

gladly accepting and promoting reliance on others

Everyone relies on others. I guess maybe the ideal of a person not relying on others would be single (of course), have thier own health insurance, not take any help from family ever (not for education, not in hard times), never take a government loan, etc. etc.. They are unlikely to ever be as sucessful in this economy as those who work with others toward their goals because the gains accessible to the average person will actually accrue to those who can best maximize opportunities (sometimes to those who exploit others but I don't condone that) and not to those who can be the purest most unsoiled examples of individual self-sufficiency but ... thems are the breaks. By the way I'm a pretty good example of self-sufficiency

then threatening to leave (with hopes of even being paid to do so) if their desires aren't met.

threatening is an expression of disgust with the policies, just leaving might be out of nothing more nor less than rational self-interest.

Perhaps a more appropriate quote would be:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." ~ Alexis de Tocqueville

an interesting theory and a very poor map of current american reality. A few social programs exist which serve the majority, and they probably won't survive unless they also produce corporate kickback (any programs which don't produce corporate kickback are precisely those under attack!), but much is also done to benefit a select few. Who? Every Homeland Security profiteer out there, Blackwater, the banks that were propped up by government policy, the government coverering up for BP etc. etc.

The good thing is (getting back on topic), I think Paul Ryan brings the right combination of attitude, conviction and beliefs to forestall de Tocqueville's proclamation, at least for the short term.

what prediction, descent into dictatorship? Where does Paul Ryan even stand on civil liberties issues? Oh wait those have nothing to do with dictatorship, the real causes of dictatorship are mostly Medicare and Social Security, obviously (sarcasm). I think a way way stronger case can be made that the descent into dictatorship is caused by EMPIRE, and currently a very clear case can be made that the civil liberties violations are DIRECT assaults.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It does raise some interesting angles. With this logic we probably would be better off paying very young children to leave because it will be a while before they can contribute. Get them out before they attend a public school, drive on a public road, go to public parks, use money, collect entitlements, go to court, suffer a natural disaster... As for their parents it may be a little trickier establishing what's fair.

If someone had been a fairly high earner for 30 or 40 years they would have paid in quite a bit so woud logically be entitled, so to speak, to a rebate if they were giving up future benefits. Someone who had only been working for 10 or 15 years at lower paying jobs is probably behind in their payments.

There is one simple way to get close to figuring out an average. The 2012 budget is $3.729 trillion. According to the population clock there are 314 million people in this country today. Divide it up and you get $11,875.80 each. That is what each person's share of this year's federal budget is. If someone wants to apply for a rebate upon permanently relocating we could add up their share of the budget for all the years they've been living here (the share of the debt LDAHL mentioned should be included) and then subtract what they paid in. If you have a credit, you get a check. Way oversimplified to be sure, but I still doubt many of the people in line would get checks.

Maybe you have a point about the young leaving.....I read last year a survey that 40% of recent college graduates would leave the US if an opportunity came up to do so. Given what young people in the US face today, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some takers of a check to say goodbye. Rob

[Gregg]

But your idea does intrigue me - if said money for my goodbye were to be paid to government X and never cross my hands - fine - as long as it applies to the monies I need to bring in with me to obtain a legal business visa in country X. Rob

Might be an interesting way to clear off some of what the Latin American countries owe us for their share of the UN peacekeeper missions.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It's no more an expectation than anything, it's a hope that old age programs will be there when we are old, no more or less irrational that the hope that the 401k won't tank.



Everyone relies on others. I guess maybe the ideal of a person not relying on others would be single (of course), have thier own health insurance, not take any help from family ever (not for education, not in hard times), never take a government loan, etc. etc.. They are unlikely to ever be as sucessful in this economy as those who work with others toward their goals because the gains accessible to the average person will actually accrue to those who can best maximize opportunities (sometimes to those who exploit others but I don't condone that) and not to those who can be the purest most unsoiled examples of individual self-sufficiency but ... thems are the breaks. By the way I'm a pretty good example of self-sufficiency



threatening is an expression of disgust with the policies, just leaving might be out of nothing more nor less than rational self-interest.



an interesting theory and a very poor map of current american reality. A few social programs exist which serve the majority, and they probably won't survive unless they also produce corporate kickback (any programs which don't produce corporate kickback are precisely those under attack!), but much is also done to benefit a select few. Who? Every Homeland Security profiteer out there, Blackwater, the banks that were propped up by government policy, the government coverering up for BP etc. etc.



what prediction, descent into dictatorship? Where does Paul Ryan even stand on civil liberties issues? Oh wait those have nothing to do with dictatorship, the real causes of dictatorship are mostly Medicare and Social Security, obviously (sarcasm). I think a way way stronger case can be made that the descent into dictatorship is caused by EMPIRE, and currently a very clear case can be made that the civil liberties violations are DIRECT assaults.

Thank you, ANM! I consider my wishes to leave very much rational self interest.....Thank you for not seeing it as a threat when no threat was made. I am taking off for an appointment right now but wll look over the rest of your post when I return. Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

If you have followed my posts you would see - sorry this is starting to sound sarcastic and such is not my intention - my goal is to emigrate somewhere with cheap health care perhaps in Latin America and pay cash for what I need or perhaps buy my own much less less less expensive insurance.

it wouldn't surpise me if ironically those countries probably have much purer free-market health care system than the U.S. does. This U.S. insurance system which you are supposed to be so proud and patriotic to have. The U.S. is one giant kick-back machine. But ocassionally it throws the majority a bone like some old age programs - that must be stopped! (sarcasm)

[LDAHL]

It does raise some interesting angles. With this logic we probably would be better off paying very young children to leave because it will be a while before they can contribute. Get them out before they attend a public school, drive on a public road, go to public parks, use money, collect entitlements, go to court, suffer a natural disaster... As for their parents it may be a little trickier establishing what's fair.

If someone had been a fairly high earner for 30 or 40 years they would have paid in quite a bit so woud logically be entitled, so to speak, to a rebate if they were giving up future benefits. Someone who had only been working for 10 or 15 years at lower paying jobs is probably behind in their payments.

There is one simple way to get close to figuring out an average. The 2012 budget is $3.729 trillion. According to the population clock there are 314 million people in this country today. Divide it up and you get $11,875.80 each. That is what each person's share of this year's federal budget is. If someone wants to apply for a rebate upon permanently relocating we could add up their share of the budget for all the years they've been living here (the share of the debt LDAHL mentioned should be included) and then subtract what they paid in. If you have a credit, you get a check. Way oversimplified to be sure, but I still doubt many of the people in line would get checks.

Sort of a "Modest Proposal" for the 21st century? If we monetize citizenship, there's no reason we can't include a buyout clause for a citizen's net equity share of the social capital.

[Gregg]

Maybe you have a point about the young leaving.....I read last year a survey that 40% of recent college graduates would leave the US if an opportunity came up to do so. Given what young people in the US face today, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some takers of a check to say goodbye. Rob

I'm sure, but that is WAY too old. To be viable we need to get kids out of the country by age 2 or 3. Much after that they start costing the country money. Recent college grads are (financially) the worst of the worst. They've consumed the resources of society their whole lives, but most have never put anything back in the coffers. For your program to be fair to everyone who writes the checks you either get out at age 3 or age 63.

If I'm going to pay someone to not consume shared resources here in the US (including those that belong to the future) I will buy you some extra insulation for your house. I breathe in less pollution and you can take the money you saved on utilities and buy better insurance. I don't want to get into a tit for tat dance that pays you to move next door and consume the neighbor's resources.

BTW: not taking your proposal as a threat Rob. I respect looking out for one's self interest and wish you the best (on this so far theoretical journey), I just don't want to pay you to do it.

[bae]

This U.S. insurance system which you are supposed to be so proud and patriotic to have.

Why would someone feel "proud and patriotic" about our insurance system? Given the amount of government involvement in regulating healthcare and insurance, it is hardly a free market, or even a transparent one. The current system is about as un-American as you can get.

[bae]

Sort of a "Modest Proposal" for the 21st century? If we monetize citizenship, there's no reason we can't include a buyout clause for a citizen's net equity share of the social capital.

I have a very good friend who decided to move to the USA permanently. He had to write a substantial check to the government of his own country to buy-out the education and other services his wife and he had received. Seems they wanted to see ROI.