View Full Version : Conavirus......
happystuff
10-10-21, 8:40pm
Human hubris = thinking you can control the virus or any other aspect of nature.
I agree, one can't control the virus or any other aspect of nature, but one can control how they respond to it - with distaste and hatred, or compassion, kindness and caring. It's a choice.
The biggest drops in cases are in places like Florida with no mask mandates. The virus is going to run its course. Masks don't stop it.
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Oh FFS. The best places in the country are places like the Bay Area where we haven’t had a fourth wave because there’s lots of vaccination and anyone that wants to go out in public wears a mask and if they want to eat in a restaurant they have to be vaccinated. Thankfully people like you with your ‘OH MUH FREEDUMB’ don’t have sway here. Move to a ****ing hotspot already and quit complaining. You may end up dead but at least you’ll die happy that you didn’t have to wear a damn mask on your deathbed.
The entire country has been in high or substantial risk of transmission for a couple months now. Covid is everywhere. Testing, contact tracing, and quarantining are all closing the barn door after the horse has left the barn. It's a huge waste of resources - like trying to control the common cold or the flu. Not gonna happen.
Sadly, you’re probably right. Too much of the country is led by sociopaths that accept this as a given and are fine with people needlessly dying.
Sadly, you’re probably right. Too much of the country is led by sociopaths that accept this as a given and are fine with people needlessly dying.
Anyone who thinks differently than you is a selfish sociopathic killer. Because you know what is best for everyone else.
You seem really unhappy but don't worry, no one will patronizingly keep telling you they wish you peace because your griping is politically correct.
My brother was telling me his biology professor taught the class that we need to be exposed to bacteria (which masks interfere with). The prof said that we enter this world in a space located between where the mother poops and where the mother pees so we are bathed in a goodly amount of bacteria to give us a good start in life by priming our immune system.
ApatheticNoMore
10-11-21, 1:38pm
All these 3rd hand anecdotes seemingly told through the most biased set of tellers. I mean I admit it's possible they are just hiring dumber and dumber people as professors today but ... maybe we aren't getting the full story.
catherine
10-11-21, 1:46pm
There is a hygiene hypothesis (https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/consumers-biologics/asthma-hygiene-hypothesis) but exposing children to normal, everyday germs is not the same as exposing large swaths of the population to a very contagious killer virus. These are two completely different things.
ApatheticNoMore
10-11-21, 1:49pm
There is a hygiene hypothesis but exposing children to normal, everyday germs is not the same as exposing large swaths of the population to a very contagious killer virus. These are two completely different things.
yea this is the hygiene hypothesis stretched to the breaking point :). That's why I'm thinking no real professor ... I'm going with the telephone hypothesis, something is being lost in these 3rd hand accounts.
There is a hygiene hypothesis but exposing children to normal, everyday germs is not the same as exposing large swaths of the population to a very contagious killer virus. These are two completely different things.
But if you make people wear masks all the time, you're limiting their exposure to the normal germs. You will be creating a generation of snowflakes that will melt at the first sundrop of an everyday virus.
catherine
10-11-21, 1:54pm
But if you make people wear masks all the time, you're limiting their exposure to the normal germs. You will be creating a generation of snowflakes that will melt at the first sundrop of an everyday virus.
I'd rather have a kid with asthma because his environment was too clean than a parent who died because they contracted COVID.
A kid with asthma, increased risk of suicide and depression, germaphobia and anxiety, many side effects of the US covid approach.
Just this morning I heard on the news that due to masks last year people were not exposed to the flu and have much lower resistance to this year's flu, which is a variation on last year's with some changes due to evolution.
There are many unintended consequences to upending society for a virus with a 99% non-lethality rate.
I don't live in fear. I have a security system in my house covering all doors, windows and interior space around entrances, but it's never been armed when we're home. As far as Covid is concerned I'm vaccinated against Covid and the flu and shingles because it's silly not to take basic measures to protect yourself from whatever might be going around, and when out and about I wear a mask if the establishment I'm entering requires one, if they don't require it I won't. I don't feel it's my responsibility to protect others from something they can easily protect themselves against, if I did I'd probably never leave the house for fear of what could be.
If I lived in fear of Covid I'd probably not visit establishments which did not require whatever basic protective measures currently in vogue and look askance at anyone not exhibiting the same fear I felt, but that's no way to live.
I don't live in fear.
I haven't quite understood the narrative that if you are prepared and act prudently you are "living in fear".
It's cold here today, so I fired up the woodstove. I had previously inspected and cleaned the chimney, am using properly seasoned wood (and measured that with my meter), I am burning at the correct temperature (and have redundant gauges), and have firefighting equipment standing by in case of a chimney fire. This doesn't mean I'm "living in fear" of a chimney fire, I'm just taking reasonable actions to avoid one.
flowerseverywhere
10-11-21, 5:44pm
My 66 year old friend passed today of Covid. She leaves her husband of 44 years, a newborn grandchild as well as other grandchildren and children.
Reports that it is over in Florida are greatly exaggerated. There are still many people in the hospitals and the ICU's are very full. Most hospitals are admitting fewer patients but there are no long lines of ambulances waiting to offload patients. That was a very frightening sight because some critical patients might not have made it because you just cannot get to everyone when it is that bad. They never actually declared a crisis mode here where they triaged who to save, but it was hard to believe at times such difficult decisions had to be made.
Her friends and family are all heartbroken. She died way too soon. Luckily they allowed her husband in towards the end when she was still concious and he spent her last few days by her side. She had very strong faith and i hope she has found her peace with her God.
Reports of patients during the height here having to say goodbyes on zoom were just awful.
So she is number ten I knew who died. My brother in laws sister was in her early sixties before the vaccines were out. I do know several of them were much older and had other health issues. But most were not obese disease riddled drinkers and smokers that haters like to point out are the only ones dying. Everyone deserved more than to die before their time surrounded by strangers
I'm so tired of people who wouldn't mask even during the height when we had a 20+% positivity. Of people not getting vaccinated and of people not wanting FDA approved medicines and demanding unproven and sometimes harmful medications and treatments because Dr Tucker Carlson and Dr Trump touted them. I am angry, sad and disgusted that a sweet very faithful and generous woman left earth before her natural time.
happystuff
10-11-21, 5:58pm
My condolences, flowerseverywhere, to you, the family and friends.
A lot of good people have died of this before their time; it's really an ongoing tragedy.
rosarugosa
10-11-21, 6:52pm
Flowers: I'm very sorry about your friend.
ApatheticNoMore
10-11-21, 6:59pm
I visited the hospital for mom's elective knee surgery. Supposedly hospital had 10 covid patients, one of them in serious condition, ALL of them unvaccinated. Since I kept getting lost in that darned hospital (very confusing layout) who knows what covid I could have been exposed to wandering around critical care and other wrong places, but with 2 doses of vaccine (not 3 although they have opened up 3 for Pfizer to pretty much anyone who wants a 3rd dose now), it's only so much of a worry. Clearly we are not overwhelmed with covid now, elective surgeries going on.
iris lilies
10-11-21, 7:31pm
Flowers, that is too bad about your friend. What was her reason for not getting vaccinated?
flowerseverywhere
10-11-21, 9:04pm
Flowers, that is too bad about your friend. What was her reason for not getting vaccinated?
She was vaccinated. She got the vaccine starting in January. She got the Pfizer and who really knows how long each of us have good immunity. I don't think it is a specific percent applicable to all. She went into the hospital before the boosters were available. Covid was everywhere here so you could not escape it when you left the House. There was no masks no distancing anywhere here. Florida is just over 50% vaccinated and we have many people who visit and vacation because of free dumb.
From.what I have read the very large majority of those who got ill enough to get to ICU were not vaccinated and the rest were breakthroughs. She went into the hospital about a month ago.
I don't live in fear. I have a security system in my house covering all doors, windows and interior space around entrances, but it's never been armed when we're home. As far as Covid is concerned I'm vaccinated against Covid and the flu and shingles because it's silly not to take basic measures to protect yourself from whatever might be going around, and when out and about I wear a mask if the establishment I'm entering requires one, if they don't require it I won't. I don't feel it's my responsibility to protect others from something they can easily protect themselves against, if I did I'd probably never leave the house for fear of what could be.
If I lived in fear of Covid I'd probably not visit establishments which did not require whatever basic protective measures currently in vogue and look askance at anyone not exhibiting the same fear I felt, but that's no way to live.
I guess we all have a different definition of what "basic measures" are when it comes to covid. From what I've read long covid does happen with breakthrough infections. Not as often as with unvaxxed people, but often enough that it is a concern for me. Bringing covid home at all is also a concern for me since I live with an overweight cancer survivor that I would really like to survive into old age because I rather enjoy his company. As such my "basic measures", in addition to being fully vaxxed and wearing masks anytime I'm indoors with people whose vax status I don't know, includes not going anywhere where covid is currently widespread. I don't feel like I'm living in fear, just being pragmatic. Like when I first moved to NYC and my block had hookers at one end and drug dealers at the other so I would take a taxi if I was coming home from a night out and it was late versus the subway and then walking 3 blocks on empty streets. Who knows, maybe I would've been fine walking from the subway. But as it is I never got mugged or had any other issue so I consider those taxi fares to have been a reasonable choice.
frugal-one
10-11-21, 9:49pm
Condolences flowerseverywhere … it is very sad about your friend…..
Teacher Terry
10-11-21, 10:05pm
I am so sorry Flowers. It’s so sad when someone dies before they should. I just got my booster today. Moderna has 3 times the medication as Pfizer. My sister got a choice in Chicago but we didn’t. It’s probably why Modena hasn’t come out with a booster.
flowerseverywhere
10-12-21, 9:00am
The unfortunate thing was we have almost as many deaths per million people as NY. Of course not only did they not know how to best treat it, there was little PPE available.and no vaccines during NY peak. Here vaccines were widely available as well as Regeneron was somewhat available. Some of the early thingS they did which they found to not work they changed. We had the valuable Information which should have made our surge much smaller. But too many people did not care enough to protect their fellow citizens through vaccination and masking Inside and making money became more important than protecting people. Of course I have heard many blame it on the dirty disease riddled illegals but whether it is the Jews, Irish, narive Amerricans, Chinese or people of color it is all too convenient to have scapegoats to blame your own inadequacies on. Many Infected people travelled in by airplane, most unknowingly infected. Our state was open very early and people drove right in to enjoy spring break and crowded restaurants and bars, as well as big sporting events. . Testing still isn't that easy to get.
flowerseverywhere
10-12-21, 9:14am
Of great interest is a book by Abraham Verghese called "My Country". It outlines the beginning of the Aids crisis and how as a physician he unwittingly became an expert. The prejudice against gay people and drug users as societies undesirables led to the crisis being far worse than it should have been and of course spreading into the general population. It was largely ignored. Actually all.of his books are outstanding, but his one outlines many.of the reasons our handling of the pandemic was so poor. Political, racial, religious and homophobic prejudices did nothing to alleviate much of the death and suffering through our history as well as in the rest of the world.
iris lilies
10-12-21, 9:35am
She was vaccinated. She got the vaccine starting in January. She got the Pfizer and who really knows how long each of us have good immunity. I don't think it is a specific percent applicable to all. She went into the hospital before the boosters were available. Covid was everywhere here so you could not escape it when you left the House. There was no masks no distancing anywhere here. Florida is just over 50% vaccinated and we have many people who visit and vacation because of free dumb.
From.what I have read the very large majority of those who got ill enough to get to ICU were not vaccinated and the rest were breakthroughs. She went into the hospital about a month ago.
i know of one other vaccinated person who died due to Covid, but he was in his 90’s and quite frail anyway.
The prejudice against gay people and drug users as societies undesirables led to the crisis being far worse than it should have been and of course spreading into the general population. It was largely ignored. Actually all.of his books are outstanding, but his one outlines many.of the reasons our handling of the pandemic was so poor. Political, racial, religious and homophobic prejudices did nothing to alleviate much of the death and suffering through our history as well as in the rest of the world.
I think the AIDS epidemic largely did not spread into the general population. There was a lot of fear that it would, but by and large that did not come to pass. There were of course other demographics affected, like hemophiliacs, but most people were not infected.
Covid is quite different. The response may not have been the best, but it was not ignored. In fact it was heavily hyped in breathless stories in the media. And there was a lot of emphasis on underserved populations. I was discussing with the Health Director in my city vaccine clinics and I said I had to go elsewhere to get the shot. He said he had at that time run over 70 clinics. I said I signed up for email notifications and was only notified of one clinic in the middle of a weekday when most people work. He said the other clinics were all targeted to underserved populations and were not open to the general public. So this is maybe the mirror image of what happened with AIDS.
flowerseverywhere
10-14-21, 6:50am
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/17-employees-have-died-covid-florida-school-district-august-n1281429
another sad story of school employees who did not survive Covid. Heartbreaking.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/17-employees-have-died-covid-florida-school-district-august-n1281429
another sad story of school employees who did not survive Covid. Heartbreaking.
No mention of their vaccination status in the story.
In the Miami-Dade Public School outbreak 13 died, none children. They were all unvaccinated adults.
Getting my booster (and flu shot) on Monday. Coworker mentioned she was able to make an appt at Walgreens even though she’s under 65. I was able to make an appt as well. Underlying medical condition? I’m overweight. Wanted to get it since I’m going to FL at Christmas to cave dive.
Getting my booster (and flu shot) on Monday.My wife and I both got flu shots last week, we were both advised to wait two weeks for the Covid booster, not sure why.
iris lilies
10-15-21, 10:00am
My wife and I both got flu shots last week, we were both advised to wait two weeks for the Covid booster, not sure why.
Interesting! I am Scheduled to get a Covid booster in 48 hours. Maybe I’ll wait to get a flu shot then.
Interesting! I am Scheduled to get a Covid booster in 48 hours. Maybe I’ll wait to get a flu shot then.
After exploring the interwebs this morning it appears that the 14 day delay suggestion is an older recommendation. The CDC now says it's ok to get multiple vaccinations at the same time. Interim Clinical Considerations for Use of COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/covid-19-vaccines-us.html#Coadministration)
Get ready for Delta Plus because we didn't shut down travel to and from the UK.
ApatheticNoMore
10-24-21, 4:50pm
My bf got a covid booster yesterday, has a fever, head ache, aching yesterday and worse today. He decided he wanted a booster and got one.
Could communication on boosters be any worse? I mean communication is pretty clear if over 65, or with severe immunocompromise, but otherwise could communication be any worse? Oh you can only get it if you have certain conditions, but then everything and the kitchen sink is thrown in as a "condition". Last I heard depression was a condition the qualified for a booster. However seriously you think mental health should be taken, there is no known link with depression and covid risk that most anyone is aware of. Where is the science? Explain yourselves CDC.
I think it's REALLY a back-door way of making covid boosters pretty much available FOR EVERYONE, without doing so because it would be unseemly or something, while the rest of the world lacks them or because people are still refusing the first shot. Or because we still have supply issues, only I don't think we have supply issues. Lay your cards on the table CDC, FDA, Biden admin. So it's maybe unseemly to prioritize U.S. citizens but you have decided to anyway. Then actually do so, not this half-hearted stuff, @#$# or get off the pot. Punting all decisions down to individuals and making sure the buck only ever stops there does not make you a leader.
Meanwhile being that boosters may produce a few days of illness, they are their own discouragement too. Especially if you can't even figure out if the CDC thinks you should get them today or not, but then come to think of it I have been kind of depressed ....
My bf got a covid booster yesterday, has a fever, head ache, aching yesterday and worse today. My wife and I both received the Pfizer booster on Thursday, no problems here.
iris lilies
10-24-21, 5:43pm
I finished my 3 day indoor flower show/training event with 30 some people. After the first day no one bothered to wear a mask. It is officially “suggested” by the hotel due to state regs.
My way of avoiding Covid is to avoid humans for the most part. All of my compatriots are old and probably vaccinated but I didn’t ask everyone’s vaccine status because the majority of them would be, And it would not have made a difference anyway to my involvement.
Going to Game Night tonight. 8 of us, in person. All but 1 of us are fire/ems people.
Site is large, well-ventilated room with table that seats 16. All of us have been vaccinated since Jan, and received boosters recently.
We're all still doing quick lateral-flow COVID tests before attending. Especially as one member of the group is an elementary schoolteacher.
happystuff
10-24-21, 9:18pm
Was at an outside birthday party yesterday. Avoided most of the political talk, which was the typical "government shouldn't tell us what to do" and "we're vaccinated". Mentioned to one woman that I knew someone who was vaccinated and still caught Delta. Her response was "Well, if they had other health conditions....". She stopped talking when I told her it was family with no other health conditions - not some "other person". And the gentleman starting to rant against the government regulations seemed to have nothing to say when I said "I wear a mask because I care about protecting others and didn't want even a minimal risk of getting anyone else sick, let alone myself - NOT because of the government".
Seems it is still easy for folks to get all bent out of shape when it all happens to "someone else", but when those people in "yes, some people will die" end up being their husbands or wives or parents or kids or siblings, etc., it all changes.
Fortunately, the political stuff came and went quickly and it ended up being a very nice get-together with old friends. :)
ApatheticNoMore
10-24-21, 10:03pm
Seems the logical response to someone caught Delta and was vaccinated would be either: breakthrough cases are not a worry for many people but they are for some groups OR everyone should get a booster. Because both worrying and wearing masks have to be inferior responses than vaccination.
But the powers that be can't even bring themselves to that conclusion, they hem and haw, go back and forth, can't even decide how many months one should wait for a booster if they get one (6 or 8?), never even mind trying to decide which booster (mixing and matching seems most likely to maximize immunity seems to me), until noone can make any sense of it all anymore.
But the thing about risk is if it eventually (even if it's after 3 or 4 shots) approaches the background risk of living then no, not everyone is going to care all the time, nor should they, because I don't look up auto fatalities every day either and I know they happen and I don't want people I care about to get in auto accidents.
Avoiding people, well yes it's like how abstinence is the only 100% effective birth control, avoiding people is the only 100% effective covid prevention.
happystuff
10-24-21, 10:25pm
Seems the logical response to someone caught Delta and was vaccinated would be either: breakthrough cases are not a worry for many people but they are for some groups OR everyone should get a booster. Because both worrying and wearing masks have to be inferior responses than vaccination.
But the powers that be can't even bring themselves to that conclusion, they hem and haw, go back and forth, can't even decide how many months one should wait for a booster if they get one (6 or 8?), never even mind trying to decide which booster (mixing and matching seems most likely to maximize immunity seems to me), until noone can make any sense of it all anymore.
But the thing about risk is if it eventually (even if it's after 3 or 4 shots) approaches the background risk of living then no, not everyone is going to care all the time, nor should they, because I don't look up auto fatalities every day either and I know they happen and I don't want people I care about to get in auto accidents.
Avoiding people, well yes it's like how abstinence is the only 100% effective birth control, avoiding people is the only 100% effective covid prevention.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't stop living NOR do I stop caring - I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.
Some people just don't want to accept that covid is now endemic rather than a pandemic in most of the US. They want to stay in crisis mode forever, maybe because in the case of health authorities this makes them feel more important.
It appears we will be in for a bad flu season, and perhaps when people see flu deaths outpacing covid deaths this nonsense will stop, though for fanatics the message will be we must wear masks to stop the flu.
Interestingly a town in my state where cases rose didn't impose masks in the library. Instead they went to curbside pickup. They must have realized masks don't work.
If you were around someone you knew had covid, would you trust any random mask to keep you safe? Medical providers in covid wards don't. They know better.
ApatheticNoMore
10-25-21, 7:55pm
Bf had to call in sick from the booster but is recovering, started feeling better 42 hours after the shot. The recommendations around boosters change pretty much by the day, but imagine expecting them to meet widespread uptake, in a country with no guaranteed paid sick leave, where even if you do it on the start of a Saturday you are still sick come Monday. LOL, unrealistic much.
I am still waiting on the sidelines.
I got my shots on a Friday after work. My second dose was the Friday before Memorial Day so I had three days to recover. But not everyone works standard M - F.
Saw on the news this morning that there is a big jump in patients needing liver transplants as many more people were drinking to excess due to the stress of covid and its restrictions.
Covid has now killed more Americans than HIV has. And it only took 4% as much time.
catherine
10-29-21, 9:37am
Saw on the news this morning that there is a big jump in patients needing liver transplants as many more people were drinking to excess due to the stress of covid and its restrictions.
I saw that, too. The rise in transplant requests has jumped 50%!!! Shocking.
Covid has now killed more Americans than HIV has. And it only took 4% as much time.
I guess masks don't work the way condoms do. They give a false sense of security that lets people hop on airplanes and jet around among other things.
I found this article on Ron DeSantis who some mean folks here have labelled DeathSantis interesting:
https://nypost.com/2021/10/28/florida-gov-ron-desantis-has-shown-how-to-handle-covid-19/
A snippet:
"His sensible moves, such as not forcing low-risk kids to wear masks, was treated as akin to murder by the media."
I have noticed Florida is in much better shape than my high mandate state according to the CDC map of community transmission.
I guess masks don't work the way condoms do. They give a false sense of security that lets people hop on airplanes and jet around among other things.
No. I think a more honest takeaway is that people don't have sex as often as they breathe. You would've gotten along great with the idiots in the gay community that fought the use of condoms in the early days of aids. I'd introduce you to some of them but they've all been dead now for 30-40 years. They were the original "but muh freedumb" folks.
The lingering effects of COVID may include organ failure, as well.
Teacher Terry
10-29-21, 2:30pm
There’s not enough organs for everyone and you have to be sober for a lengthy period to get on the list. People with other causes have priority as it should be. You can’t kill your liver in that span of time so guessing people that had a problem for years increased their drinking during the pandemic which finished the job. It’s really sad.
catherine
10-29-21, 2:35pm
There’s not enough organs for everyone and you have to be sober for a lengthy period to get on the list. People with other causes have priority as it should be. You can’t kill your liver in that span of time so guessing people that had a problem for years increased their drinking during the pandemic which finished the job. It’s really sad.
That's true. I'm curious as to how many women are on that list, as I've heard women are more vulnerable to cirrhosis than men are. And all the promotion by wine companies to women via wine memes--I wouldn't be surprised if women aren't disproportionately represented.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailydot.com%2Funclick%2Fwin e-meme%2F&psig=AOvVaw1U1ds0wQn2z3Pls88825zV&ust=1635618779299000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCLCKyPSg8PMCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAJ
Teacher Terry
10-29-21, 2:49pm
When my friend’s 19 year old daughter had a rare liver disease the wait on the west coast was 7 years and she would have been dead. She had to move to Indiana and only waited a month.
That surprised me, too. A year and a half is a pretty short time to develop end-stage liver disease. Unless you're taking handfuls of acetaminophen and chasing it with booze.
The constant pushing of wine on women as if it's just a cool, harmless indulgence bothers me, as alcohol can not only destroy your liver, it's also a known carcinogen. We managed to PSA cigarettes out of the mainstream, but it seems (often heavy) drinking is back in vogue. (Says someone who likes a tablespoon of spirits in her morning cup occasionally...:~) )
No. I think a more honest takeaway is that people don't have sex as often as they breathe. You would've gotten along great with the idiots in the gay community that fought the use of condoms in the early days of aids. I'd introduce you to some of them but they've all been dead now for 30-40 years. They were the original "but muh freedumb" folks.
Well before treatments were developed for it AIDS had a 100% mortality rate. Before vaccines were developed for it covid had a 1% mortality rate. Despite this huge difference packing yourself on planes with hundreds of other people during a pandemic is still foolish. But hey, muh freedumb to travel.
Well before treatments were developed for it AIDS had a 100% mortality rate. Before vaccines were developed for it covid had a 1% mortality rate. Despite this huge difference packing yourself on planes with hundreds of other people during a pandemic is still foolish. But hey, muh freedumb to travel.
It was 3% of infected individuals--at least in this state. Much higher than the flu. That was one of the statistics that convinced me to get vaccinated.
Let's see. My last two flights across the Atlantic had 3 people in a 36 person cabin. All vaccinated. All PCR tested negative before travel. All wearing PPE. Lots of airflow. Good wifi.
Oddly, no infections resulted.
It was 3% of infected individuals--at least in this state. Much higher than the flu. That was one of the statistics that convinced me to get vaccinated.
3% that were tested. Many people who caught it early on before the government admitted it was here weren't tested; others never went for testing because they were mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic, or were not tested because they did not have access to tests, so they are not included in these figures. Not all countries have the resources to robustly test, trying to ferret out every single case.
The tested are more likely to be those with serious outcomes. If you don't even know you are sick why would you get a test unless compelled to?
The tested are more likely to be those with serious outcomes. If you don't even know you are sick why would you get a test unless compelled to?
I don't believe I'm sick. I'm still testing every two days. Because I care about other people.
3% that were tested. Many people who caught it early on before the government admitted it was here weren't tested; others never went for testing because they were mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic, or were not tested because they did not have access to tests, so they are not included in these figures. Not all countries have the resources to robustly test, trying to ferret out every single case.
The tested are more likely to be those with serious outcomes. If you don't even know you are sick why would you get a test unless compelled to?
You're changing the goalpost. Back in the summer you were "why would anyone get tested if they just had cold-type symptoms?" We have the resources. Everyone that had any indication that they might have gotten infected in P-town in July got tested. Mainly because they were gay men and we have a different relationship to public health and the health of others thanks to HIV. They were also all vaccinated. As a result what could have been a major spreader event turned into a nothing burger. If everyone else in the country gave a crap about other humans we could largely eradicate this. But we can't and won't because "muh freedumb". Instead of us acting like a first world country with a can do attitude history will see us as a sad cautionary tale of how not to handle a pandemic where the individual freedom of not wearing a little piece of cloth on one's face and not getting vaccinated took priority over protecting everyone.
Canada's infection and death rate has been a fraction of ours. Unlike them we're going to continue to slog along with stupid high infection rates because muh freedumb. They should probably build a wall on their southern border. I've mentioned it before but it bears repeating again and again and again for everyone in the peanut gallery, when all of our health insurance premiums have tripled three years from now because covid, both acute and long, are still thriving here I'm going to tell all the "muh freedumb" folks to eff themselves. But hey, at least they didn't have to wear a god damn mask...
Well the mask does nothing compared to social distancing and Canada paid everyone $2000.00 a month so they could stay home and not have to go to work.
If we have so many resources we could have done that.
Our local news says the state has requested FEMA to help with hospital staffing due to a big rise of cases. The figures they offered were that 80 percent of the adult population has recieved at least one Covid shot, and 80% of the hospitalized Covid cases are unvaccinated people.
I think Yppej secretly made a trip to Marin County California. Our mask mandate ended yesterday because we've had several weeks of low case counts (average of 10 per day per 100,000 population for the last week), really high vax rates (over 80% of total population/95% of eligible population) and only 1 current hospitalization. I went to safeway today for a few things and everyone was still wearing a mask except one middle aged woman...
ApatheticNoMore
11-3-21, 2:14am
I went to safeway today for a few things and everyone was still wearing a mask except one middle aged woman...
haha
I don't know if mask mandates will ever actually end here, it's just part of life at this point, there is no end goal, there is no goal, there never has been (I mean there wasn't even a goal of avoiding hospital overwhelm in the bad old days of the pandemic, or else maybe it would have happened) and there is no goal now either.
I think Yppej secretly made a trip to Marin County California. Our mask mandate ended yesterday because we've had several weeks of low case counts (average of 10 per day per 100,000 population for the last week), really high vax rates (over 80% of total population/95% of eligible population) and only 1 current hospitalization. I went to safeway today for a few things and everyone was still wearing a mask except one middle aged woman...
Actually yesterday was city election day so after work I found a bunch of politicians hanging around my polling place and I lobbied them on my mask issue.
One was concerned about his uncle undergoing chemo and I told him about preventive prophylactic covid treatments as discussed in this article:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-dr-scott-gottlieb-on-face-the-nation-october-24-2021/
Dr. Gottlieb says with this treatment no one needs to die of covid anymore. The vulnerable can get it, and everyone else can get vaccinated.
happystuff
11-3-21, 9:38am
Mandate or no mandate, I'm still wearing my mask out into the general public - and I'm not the only one! :)
Check out the picture in this article. (I was trying to cut and paste it but couldn't figure it out.)
https://www.ledgertranscript.com/COVID-and-shipping-delays-drive-up-material-cost-43381622#lg=1&slide=0
It's a thing of beauty - I'll do me and you do you when it comes to masks. This is why I want to move to New Hampshire someday.
Apparently 50% of the global adult population has received at least one dose of vaccine. That that has happened in less than a year is a remarkable accomplishment. Hopefully that pace will continue.
ApatheticNoMore
11-8-21, 4:00pm
Apparently 50% of the global adult population has received at least one dose of vaccine. That that has happened in less than a year is a remarkable accomplishment. Hopefully that pace will continue.
Hooray! I wonder how much it's helped along by countries with huge populations and their own vaccines and vaccination programs like China. India also has it's own vaccine but I don't know how fast distribution is going there. But hooray regardless.
A customer was saying he has an iffy employment situation as he does not want to get vaccinated. If his union does not get the mandate stopped he will quit and go elsewhere. His daughter-in-law might drop out of community college rather than get the shot.
There is still a lot of vaccine hesitancy and resistance and I don't see mandates getting us to herd immunity. Better to accept that covid is endemic and live with it.
flowerseverywhere
11-11-21, 12:56pm
My neighbors 46 year old son just died of the corona virus. Two children 11 and seven. The parents look like they have aged twenty years and they look like beaten dogs with their heads down when they bring the dog out. I don't know the circumstances and of course will not ask, but he looked like a physically fit guy when I saw him a few months ago.
He lived in Tampa in the anti science anti mask freedumb state of Florida .
My dental hygienist told me when she went to take her 11 year old to get vaccinated there were protesters screaming at her that they were going to inject her daughter with fetus materials and they were unsafe. Also, that God would take care of her. To be honest, if that is the solution he or she has not done too great of a job so far.
happystuff
11-11-21, 1:13pm
My condolences to your neighbors and his family. Any age is too young to lose a father or a child.
Teacher Terry
11-11-21, 1:48pm
Flowers, that’s so sad. My friend’s daughter said she was going to quit college if she had to be vaccinated. In the end she got the vaccine and we were all happy because she has 3 kids that need her.
sweetana3
11-11-21, 3:23pm
I wonder how many of those protestors are evangelical "Christians"? They have given over their ability to think for themselves to others.
We were just told our neighbor had a breakthru case. Thankfully it was mild. Again, way too close.
I can't get my head around why there has to be such drama and complication over vaccination issues. I am closing in on six months since second Pfizer vaccine and haven't yet scheduled the booster. Our state has opened up boosters to all adults. I keep wondering if we will be advised to keep getting them every six months so I do understand suspicions about their diminishing effectiveness.
Some people in the Biden administration have quit over the push to get everyone boosted before the FDA could determine the efficacy of this. It's politics over science.
Let's do something, anything - any random cloth face covering, unauthorized boosters, throw trillions of dollars in stimulus around. We must be seen to be doing something even if it's not the right thing! Let's not think through the inflationary or other ramifications. Act first, think later!
ApatheticNoMore
11-11-21, 6:44pm
Or if you wait until all the data is in, it's too late. Definitely the case with a fast moving virus. So it's the states pushing vaccination faster the the Fed gov at this point.
And the CDC finally admits herd immunity won't work:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-shifts-pandemic-goals-away-from-reaching-herd-immunity/ar-AAQCZMW?cvid=c628c19b181b43a6830b0403e6acf5aa&ocid=winp1taskbar
Now how many months will it take until my Board of Health accepts this reality? Or will they never, and want us to wear masks forever (my guess)? I already gave them an article on this at their last meeting but I doubt they will read it. They kept postponing voting on minutes because one member couldn't even get around to reading them. Then the minutes had errors in them - like I said "per pupil expenditure" and they wrote "people expenditure" which made zero sense.
Very frustrating dealing with these people and they have so much power over me.
Heard on NPR this morning that public health officials are losing more and more credibility because of the nonstop restrictions and when a new variant or a new virus arises no one will pay any attention to them.
pinkytoe
11-12-21, 11:48am
I tend to think that media in general is the cause of all the mixed messages.
catherine
11-12-21, 12:30pm
I tend to think that media in general is the cause of all the mixed messages.
Here is interesting information from two sources: I'm not going anti-vaxxer on the basis of these articles, but I like to read both sides...
From Yahoo on why high vaccination rate states are experiencing big spikes (like Vermont). https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-covid-cases-are-surging-in-states-with-high-vaccination-rates-and-what-it-means-for-the-winter-ahead-204548703.html
And from one of the people I really like to read, Charles Eisenstein, who it seems is an anti-vaxxer. Just another POV, FWIW. He is a very lucid writer on most topics. Here, he speaks with an anti-pharma bias but still interesting. https://charleseisenstein.substack.com/p/elements-of-refusal
dado potato
11-12-21, 1:09pm
And the CDC finally admits herd immunity won't work:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-shifts-pandemic-goals-away-from-reaching-herd-immunity/ar-AAQCZMW?cvid=c628c19b181b43a6830b0403e6acf5aa&ocid=winp1taskbar
Now how many months will it take until my Board of Health accepts this reality? Or will they never, and want us to wear masks forever (my guess)?
Yppej, Thankyou for posting the link to the LA Times article by Melissa Healy. I gather from the article that a CDC advisory panel had a discussion about the usefulness of "herd immunity" as a goal. As Dr Jones argued, it may not be achievable that throughout the United States there would be NO MORE transmission of COVID once a threshold of vaccination, such as 75% or 80%, is reached.
I think the goal of "community immunity" would be more useful. Clearly (for a time) a specific community can go for weeks without a COVID death, or a COVID hospitalization, or even one new positive test... but this would not constitute "herd immunity" uniformly from sea to shining sea. Are people in northern Vermont members of the same herd as the folks in Ft Lauderdale FL, or Detroit MI, or where-ever?
There is uncertainty due to new COVID variants, such as Delta. The fact of "breakthrough" infections in people who have been vaccinated suggests that immunity is waning.
Last I saw, about 59% of Americans are fully vaccinated.
This virus is going to stick with us for a long, long time. - Ali Mokdad, Professor of Health Metrics, University of Washington (quoted in an article written by Carla Johnson for AP 11/11/2021)
ApatheticNoMore
11-12-21, 1:20pm
From Yahoo on why high vaccination rate states are experiencing big spikes (like Vermont). https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-covid...204548703.html
but I'm not sure what it means, but hey here's the media with another panic article that won't explain it either (but made you click!). I mean it could be breakthrough infections, but it could be that more than 72% vaccination isn't actually a very high vaccination rate (but, but, it's "relatively" high - oh I see nature grades on a curve does it). I mean was anyone ever saying 70 something % would be enough.
but I'm not sure what it means, but hey here's the media with another panic article that won't explain it either (but made you click!). I mean it could be breakthrough infections, but it could be that more than 72% vaccination isn't actually a very high vaccination rate (but, but, it's "relatively" high - oh I see nature grades on a curve does it). I mean was anyone ever saying 70 something % would be enough.
I think 70% got in people's minds because Biden wanted 70% of eligible people (adults) to have one dose by the Fourth of July. Then in came 80%, and now 80% isn't stopping infections.
Even if a person suffers a break-through infection, they're less likely to spread it if their droplets are contained by a mask--even less if their potential contact is also wearing one.
Even if a person suffers a break-through infection, they're less likely to spread it if their droplets are contained by a mask--even less if their potential contact is also wearing one.
Minimally less likely if it is any random face cloth covering. I recommended to my Board of Health that they use ARPA funds to buy hazmat suits for the nervous and let the rest of us go about our lives normally.
A coworker of mine was allowed into the hospital against protocols in spring 2020 to see his mother dying of covid but given a hazmat suit to wear. Despite having recently had chemo he did not catch covid. If you want something that really works, the hazmat suit is the way to go, and now that winter is coming it won't be so burdensome to wear one.
I have started the process of looking for another town to live in where I can be free. This likely will not happen for a few years, due to a variety of factors (crazy housing market, DS still at home and any change is difficult for him, want to stay near parents so long as they are living in their home) but if things change unexpectedly I want to have my research done and be ready to move sooner rather than later.
So far I have ruled two towns out because they make you wear masks in the library although their websites don't say this. The search continues.
happystuff
11-12-21, 1:50pm
Even if a person suffers a break-through infection, they're less likely to spread it if their droplets are contained by a mask--even less if their potential contact is also wearing one.
Agree.
Here is interesting information from two sources: I'm not going anti-vaxxer on the basis of these articles, but I like to read both sides...
From Yahoo on why high vaccination rate states are experiencing big spikes (like Vermont). https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-covid-cases-are-surging-in-states-with-high-vaccination-rates-and-what-it-means-for-the-winter-ahead-204548703.html
And from one of the people I really like to read, Charles Eisenstein, who it seems is an anti-vaxxer. Just another POV, FWIW. He is a very lucid writer on most topics. Here, he speaks with an anti-pharma bias but still interesting. https://charleseisenstein.substack.com/p/elements-of-refusal
Interesting second article Catherine. I have seen a lot of groupthink in the pandemic, and not a lot of critical thought.
This is a truly wonderful article:
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted
iris lilies
11-17-21, 7:15pm
This is a truly wonderful article:
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted
Yes, we mentioned the Egyptian study being debunked some time ago.
I have finished calling different libraries to see if they require masks and visiting libraries, and have selected a town I want to move to if an opportunity comes my way. Surprisingly I found fewer restrictions in the places I checked in Massachusetts than I did in either New Hampshire or Vermont.
iris lilies
11-17-21, 8:56pm
This is a truly wonderful article:
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted
Also, if you check PubMed there seems to be legitimate research going on that suggests ivermectin has some antiviral properties. The phrase “COVID-19” is used in some of those abstracts.
Chicken lady
11-17-21, 10:02pm
Fun fact - ivermectin kills mosquitos. As in, if you have recently been wormed with ivermectin and a mosquito bites you - she will die.
i know this because when my ds was in school he worked on a paper modeling the effects on malaria transmission of different distributions of wormer in the human populations of rural African villages.
carry on.
iris lilies
11-17-21, 11:18pm
Fun fact - ivermectin kills mosquitos. As in, if you have recently been wormed with ivermectin and a mosquito bites you - she will die.
i know this because when my ds was in school he worked on a paper modeling the effects on malaria transmission of different distributions of wormer in the human populations of rural African villages.
carry on.
That is interesting. My dog takes Ivermectin for Heartworm control. So Ivermectin kills larvae stage creatures as well as the vector (mosquito) of the
heartworm? Hunh.
I went to four places this week where employees were not wearing masks. Maybe employers are finally starting to get that with a labor shortage you need to offer people some bodily autonomy if you want them to work for you.
Mental health resources for covid anxiety and worse:
https://mhanational.org/covid19
Some of you may find this helpful.
What is the effect of government covid mandates?
A decline in support for childhood vaccinations of all kinds:
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/10/13/support-requiring-child-vaccinations
A decline in support for flu shots:
https://news.yahoo.com/republicans-now-20-percentage-points-180651057.html
Biden's support is even down among black voters due to mandates:
https://morningconsult.com/2021/09/22/biden-black-voters-vaccine-mandate-polling/
Being heavy handed in a country founded on principles of freedom is not the way to go.
Several counties in my state have reinstated mask mandates for all indoor public places due to hospitals at or near capacity. Exceptions include businesses that require vaccinaiton for both employees and clients. I listened to parts for the debate for my county. One doctor testified that one of his patients who had brain surgery was required to recover in the hallway due to ICU capacities, and FEMA and other agencies are assisting due to hospital staff shortages.
The first county to institute the mandate in mid-October and has seen a significant decrease in hospital cases since. That was used as a primary arguement for other counties, though there was some discussion about whether the decrease was cause and effect, or coincidental. It was approved and will go into effect this week here. It sounds like the mandates will remain in effect until hospital capacities are more manageable. First offenses will just receive a citation.
My state's Department of Elementary and Secondary Education is letting bad teachers move from school to school much as the Catholic Church used to let bad priests move from parish to parish. By bad teachers I mean they are letting kids watch porn in class, are sexually harassing other teachers, etc. But hey, the DESE is forcing kids with miniscule risks from covid to all wear masks. Priorities, right?
My state's Department of Elementary and Secondary Education is letting bad teachers move from school to school much as the Catholic Church used to let bad priests move from parish to parish. By bad teachers I mean they are letting kids watch porn in class, are sexually harassing other teachers, etc. But hey, the DESE is forcing kids with miniscule risks from covid to all wear masks. Priorities, right?
The news stories on this must be missing some of the details.
The news stories on this must be missing some of the details.
Here are some details:
https://www.wcvb.com/article/5-investigates-students-watching-porn-massachusetts-youth-facility/38256912#
A followup story last night covered teachers being moved from school to school.
Read it and weep,
Read it and weep,
We’re gambling now?
Here are some details:
https://www.wcvb.com/article/5-investigates-students-watching-porn-massachusetts-youth-facility/38256912#
A followup story last night covered teachers being moved from school to school.
Read it and weep,
I guess I’m still missing something. It says the supervisors (which it said earlier in the article were the ones giving porn to the kids) involved in this were no longer working there.
I guess I’m still missing something. It says the supervisors (which it said earlier in the article were the ones giving porn to the kids) involved in this were no longer working there.
Here is the follow-up story:
https://www.wcvb.com/article/5-investigates-teacher-who-left-dys-northeast-region-working-again/38337795
From our local news.
Larimer County adopted a mask order when its hospitals got overwhelmed with COVID-19 cases along with a surge on other medical needs. It’s had an impact, Jefferson County public health director Dawn Comstock told Jeffco’s board.
“Hospital admissions are now down approximately 33 percent since the beginning of the mask mandate in Larimer County,” she said.
“Public health orders in Boulder and Larimer counties have led to increased mask-wearing and kept hospitalizations lower,” said Lexi Nolen, Boulder County Public Health's deputy director. “We see that our towns on county borders are experiencing higher case rates.”
From our local news.
Larimer County adopted a mask order when its hospitals got overwhelmed with COVID-19 cases along with a surge on other medical needs. It’s had an impact, Jefferson County public health director Dawn Comstock told Jeffco’s board.
“Hospital admissions are now down approximately 33 percent since the beginning of the mask mandate in Larimer County,” she said.
“Public health orders in Boulder and Larimer counties have led to increased mask-wearing and kept hospitalizations lower,” said Lexi Nolen, Boulder County Public Health's deputy director. “We see that our towns on county borders are experiencing higher case rates.”
I am not convinced.
Covid comes in waves, so the decrease could be that it has peaked in this area. If masks work, why are positivity rates lowest in states like South Carolina, Texas or Florida that did not have mandates?
There is also the assumption that people don't travel outside the borders of the town or county where the mask mandate is in place, and that people only gather places where there are mask mandates.
For instance, my city has a mask mandate for municipal buildings, but people go many other places including private businesses and private homes.
iris lilies
11-24-21, 12:04pm
From our local news.
Larimer County adopted a mask order when its hospitals got overwhelmed with COVID-19 cases along with a surge on other medical needs. It’s had an impact, Jefferson County public health director Dawn Comstock told Jeffco’s board.
“Hospital admissions are now down approximately 33 percent since the beginning of the mask mandate in Larimer County,” she said.
“Public health orders in Boulder and Larimer counties have led to increased mask-wearing and kept hospitalizations lower,” said Lexi Nolen, Boulder County Public Health's deputy director. “We see that our towns on county borders are experiencing higher case rates.”
I very much doubt that one county’s mandate keeps that county safe while neighboring unmasked counties spread the disease at a very high level.
Masks provide some mitigation of spread. People on either side of the mask mandate argument are fooling themselves that either is correct.
I very much doubt that one county’s mandate keeps that county safe while neighboring unmasked counties spread the disease at a very high level.
Masks provide some mitigation of spread. People on either side of the mask mandate argument are fooling themselves that either is correct.
Maybe, maybe not. I think one thing the mask mandate does do is that it elevates the awareness of increased risk, so there are other behavioral changes that go along with it.
Our hospitals are at or near near capacity. I suspect if things don't improve there will be further restrictions on indoor activities and no one wants that. Businesses that require staff and customers to be vaccinated are exempt so the slogan is, "Mask or vax". It sounds like the penalties will not be too harsh and other than blatant violations there will not be especially strict enforcement.
iris lilies
11-24-21, 2:18pm
Maybe, maybe not. I think one thing the mask mandate does do is that it elevates the awareness of increased risk, so there are other behavioral changes that go along with it.
Our hospitals are at or near near capacity. I suspect if things don't improve there will be further restrictions on indoor activities and no one wants that. Businesses that require staff and customers to be vaccinated are exempt so the slogan is, "Mask or vax". It sounds like the penalties will not be too harsh and other than blatant violations there will not be especially strict enforcement.
I think you are right about added awareness when there’s a mask mandate. There are so many micro actions around masks that thinking “mask or unmasked “as a blunt force instrument is silly to me. But that is all government can do, it has the power to mandate masking. Checking proper masking protocol is outside of its ability.
Do you know how many people fail to wear masks even remotely correctly? Tons. We don’t even talk about that here.
I wear a mask when I’m supposed to, as best I remember.Do I wear it correctly? Well, not always. Is the mask itself correct? Well, not always.
Checking proper masking protocol is outside of its ability.
Do you know how many people fail to wear masks even remotely correctly? Tons. We don’t even talk about that here.
I wear a mask when I’m supposed to, as best I remember.Do I wear it correctly? Well, not always. Is the mask itself correct? Well, not always.
My understanding is that the point of the mask requirement isn't necessarily to protect any one specific individual, but rather to dampen the rate of spread. So, "good enough, some of the time" can help drop the curve for your overall society, while individual people, well, maybe not so much.
Which is why I wear fit-tested N95 masks, because in addition to slowing the spread, I sort of want to stay healthy myself. I know, I'm selfishly using an N95 that probably could save a starving child in Somalia, but that's the way of the world.
iris lilies
11-24-21, 2:56pm
My understanding is that the point of the mask requirement isn't necessarily to protect any one specific individual, but rather to dampen the rate of spread. So, "good enough, some of the time" can help drop the curve for your overall society, while individual people, well, maybe not so much.
Which is why I wear fit-tested N95 masks, because in addition to slowing the spread, I sort of want to stay healthy myself. I know, I'm selfishly using an N95 that probably could save a starving child in Somalia, but that's the way of the world.
Right, any masking helps, but much of the masking out there barely helps. There are right ways and wrong ways to participate in masking culture.
I wear an N95 that I have adapted to my head with elastic because my ears don’t hold it on. Guess how often
I change it out. I am an example of “the right mask mask worn wrongly.” Just an example.
ApatheticNoMore
11-24-21, 3:11pm
I suspect that this right mask worn wrongly stuff is mostly myth though. It really is a case of making the perfect an enemy of the very good. It's striving for a perfectionism that just does not apply in non-medical contexts.
Should it be changed out regularly, if you are tending to covid patients esp before the vaccine sure (although due to shortages early on that wasn't always possible), but that a limited group of people, but yea if one is taking care of covid patients. But for most people the insisting on absolute perfection if one wears a medical grade masks, while generally drawing no distinctions in mask quality at all, did absolutely no good. Was it best before the vaccine to also social distance when possible? Of course.
I consulted with an arborist the other day. Outside, masked (both of us), 10 feet apart or so. Felt very safe.
Because my artsy side hates the look of N95 masks*, I wear a 2-layer cotton jersey liner under a 3-layer (including KN95 filter) Vermont Beau-Ties mask, which also fits close to my face. And I keep my distance, so I think I've got it covered.
*If the ugly blue foldy things are N95s, why do they almost always gape out at the sides? That can't be effective, can it?
*If the ugly blue foldy things are N95s, why do they almost always gape out at the sides? That can't be effective, can it?
Years back, I went on a quest for The Perfect N95 for me. It had to fit my face properly, it had to make a seal that would pass our regular testing (with my preferred facial hair style), it had to be robust enough to live in the pockets of bunker gear or backpacks, and ideally it had to be vaguely comfortable. I must have gone though nearly a dozen options before finding one that was Just About Right. Which was a fold-flat variety, but it doesn't gap once donned correctly, as it allows for a reasonable amount of molding to your face.
Luckily I had an entire mountain of these things in stock when the pandemic began, as I'd been handing them out to coworkers for them to try out as well. The standard ones our department issued were terrible - they passed the fit test, but in field use they got destroyed often before use. That kind might have been suitable for use in a controlled environment, but not-so-much outside that context.
I guess the key is - try lots, which of course was hard during the initial stages of the pandemic.
I think "Try lots." is good advice.
I'm particularly fond of my red flannel buffalo plaid model--perfect for the PNW. :~)
rosarugosa
11-24-21, 4:08pm
Jane: the "ugly blue foldy things" are not N95s. I hear them most commonly referred to as "procedure masks."
Rogar, mask or vax makes sense to me because it provides an incentive for vaccination. Mask mandates that apply to vaccinated people do the opposite and create moral hazard.
Of course, anyone who wants to wear a mask should be able to. I even saw one in a bank a few weeks ago.
Jane: the "ugly blue foldy things" are not N95s. I hear them most commonly referred to as "procedure masks."
That makes sense. I understood that real N95s were supposed to be individually fit to best contain droplets.
Rogar, mask or vax makes sense to me because it provides an incentive for vaccination. Mask mandates that apply to vaccinated people do the opposite and create moral hazard.
Of course, anyone who wants to wear a mask should be able to. I even saw one in a bank a few weeks ago.
The program sounds good on paper. There is supposedly some certification requried to go maskless with a vaccinated staff and all customers, and also follow up audits, but it will be an overwhelming task to enforce.
I am due for an elective surgery and time will tell whether the medical system by that time will be overwhelmed because the same people who take anti-depressants, statins, blood pressure medications, and other medicines all with risk of adverse effects refuse a covid shot because they've read an article, heard a podcast, or talked with same minded friends. I think it is a cultural issue more than a scientific one.
We can go back and forth about masks and I have an opinion, but people just need to get vaccinated. Until that happens, the beatings will continue until the attitude improve. The second line of defense is restrictions on mask and social distancing whether you or I like it or not. I believe as one of the German health officials said, eventually everyone will either be vaccinated, cured, or dead. I would add, or combinations there of.
I ran across a new term the other day - anamnestic. It is when waning immunity is boosted either by exposure to the virus or from booster shots. "Each exposure trains the immune system to recognize and respond to the virus faster" according to this article:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/covid-outbreak-in-party-town-shows-how-the-pandemic-could-end/ar-AAQNMyA?cvid=7fdedcab9ff54058a88ae9c8f15b8fa6&ocid=winp1taskbar
So we will get there, and if instead of hiding behind masks we live normal lives we will get there quicker, assuming masks actually reduce exposure to the virus.
Next step - Covid parties! Get your immunity boosted with your friends!
FFS
Next step - Covid parties! Get your immunity boosted with your friends!
FFS
When my son had chicken pox as a child a coworker wanted to have his kids play with him so they could catch it since it is better to get it while young and it's mild than when older. Another coworker freaked out that I might have been exposed and I, feeling perfectly fine, was sent home with pay. It takes all kinds.
So maybe covid parties for the kids so they don't die of covid when they get older and weaker.
I was exposed to chickenpox at least a couple of times and never got it. Mumps and measles, on the other hand...
I am due for an elective surgery and time will tell whether the medical system by that time will be overwhelmed because the same people who take anti-depressants, statins, blood pressure medications, and other medicines all with risk of adverse effects refuse a covid shot because they've read an article, heard a podcast, or talked with same minded friends. I think it is a cultural issue more than a scientific one. (Roger) ---Yeah, what irony! I avoid Pharma medications, but I was perfectly happy to get the shot.
At my age, I'll err on the side of caution. I don't mind wearing a mask, and don't consider that doing so abridges my freedom in the slightest.
I ran across a new term the other day - anamnestic. It is when waning immunity is boosted either by exposure to the virus or from booster shots. "Each exposure trains the immune system to recognize and respond to the virus faster" according to this article:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/covid-outbreak-in-party-town-shows-how-the-pandemic-could-end/ar-AAQNMyA?cvid=7fdedcab9ff54058a88ae9c8f15b8fa6&ocid=winp1taskbar
So we will get there, and if instead of hiding behind masks we live normal lives we will get there quicker, assuming masks actually reduce exposure to the virus.
Not something I'd want to try, but I suspect a lot of vaccinated people have inadvently been exposed and just had mild symptoms or were asymptomaic and never realized they had a mild Covid case. It would be spinning the wheel of fortune to do this intentionally. 20% of our hospitalizations are among the vaccinated and I'd not want to be one of them..
iris lilies
11-25-21, 9:51pm
Not something I'd want to try, but I suspect a lot of vaccinated people have inadvently been exposed and just had mild symptoms or were asymptomaic and never realized they had a mild Covid case. It would be spinning the wheel of fortune to do this intentionally. 20% of our hospitalizations are among the vaccinated and I'd not want to be one of them..
Wait…is that now the latest stat, 20% of hospitalizations are people who have been vaccinated?
is that true? If true, that number has certainly climbed in recent months. It started out a very small percentage.
gimmethesimplelife
11-25-21, 10:26pm
Wait…is that now the latest stat, 20% of hospitalizations are people who have been vaccinated?
is that true? If true, that number has certainly climbed in recent months. It started out a very small percentage.This is creeping me out big time, these breakthrough cases in vaccinated people. This right here is why I approve of mandates - especially Austria's which covers all citizens and residents.
We are not done with Covid. I believe Europe is the petri dish proving this. I've got two weeks of PTO now and whenever I take it I will not be venturing far. The only countries - as of a few days ago - admitting US citizens with no hassles are Mexico and Colombia - and I question this wisdom even as I make plans for my next border run. Rob
Wait…is that now the latest stat, 20% of hospitalizations are people who have been vaccinated?
is that true? If true, that number has certainly climbed in recent months. It started out a very small percentage.
It might be different where you live, but it's a number our news routinely banters about. A quick fact check, but I've seen it from other recent reliable sources
Even as the root of this contradiction remains a mystery, the source of the infection spike now gripping this state is clear. Those who are unvaccinated comprise about 80% of infections. At UCHealth hospitals, that ratio holds: 78% of those hospitalized and 91% of those in ICUs are unvaccinated. The ones hospitalized despite being vaccinated are often immunocompromised or significantly older.
https://www.uchealth.org/today/why-are-colorado-covid-19-cases-spiking/
Wait…is that now the latest stat, 20% of hospitalizations are people who have been vaccinated?
is that true? If true, that number has certainly climbed in recent months. It started out a very small percentage.
When you go to the hospital they test you for covid. If you test positive you are automatically counted as a covid hospitalization.
So I could feel perfectly fine, no covid symptoms, then I have a heart attack or stroke. Although I am fully vaccinated and my covid is asymptomatic I will now count as a covid hospitalization despite the fact that covid has nothing to do with why I am in the hospital.
Hospitals get more money for covid patients. Families get funeral money for "covid deaths". So there are incentives to exaggerate.
The program sounds good on paper. There is supposedly some certification requried to go maskless with a vaccinated staff and all customers, and also follow up audits, but it will be an overwhelming task to enforce.
I would just put a sign on the door, "Unvaccinated, enter at your own risk".
It should not be the job of government or business to protect people from themselves. Personal responsibility needs to come into play. If it doesn't then natural selection will.
When you go to the hospital they test you for covid. If you test positive you are automatically counted as a covid hospitalization.
So I could feel perfectly fine, no covid symptoms, then I have a heart attack or stroke. Although I am fully vaccinated and my covid is asymptomatic I will now count as a covid hospitalization despite the fact that covid has nothing to do with why I am in the hospital.
Hospitals get more money for covid patients. Families get funeral money for "covid deaths". So there are incentives to exaggerate.
In these cases I distrust your twisting of numbers to benefit an argement much more than our department of health.
In these cases I distrust your twisting of numbers to benefit an argement much more than our department of health.
Don't take it from me - take it from this link:
https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2021/11/massachusetts-covid-cases-hospitalizations-positivity-rate-continue-to-climb-20-to-29-year-olds-are-top-group-contracting-virus-over-last-two-weeks.html
"The total includes those being treated for reasons other than COVID-19, but who've tested positive."
Maybe in your state it is different.
I've not seen similar verbage in anything I've seen here, but I'd admit there could be some grey areas. If I were interested in further verifications, I'd say the spike in hospitalizations among the vaccinated coincides with the spike in unvaccinated. Therefore one would conclude that the spike is due to covid rather than a spike in strokes and heart attacks.
If I were to suppose information not represented anywhere I've seen, I'd say that there is a good possibility that at least some of the reports of hospitalizations among the vaccinated not only includes the immune compromised and elderly, but is also dependent on the time period since vaccination. It seems fairly obvious, at least to me, that the vaccine protect wanes over time and increases risk.
I've not seen similar verbage in anything I've seen here, but I'd admit there could be some grey areas. If I were interested in further verifications, I'd say the spike in hospitalizations among the vaccinated coincides with the spike in unvaccinated. Therefore one would conclude that the spike is due to covid rather than a spike in strokes and heart attacks.
Even with the spikes only 15% or so of hospitalizations in my state are due to covid. Depending on the hospital between 5 and 50% of hospital capacity is used for prescheduled surgeries. There is a backlog of these people were afraid to go in for surgery pre-vaccine. There are also staffing shortages (nurses strike is the major factor in my area; in red states more likely people leaving the profession due to vaccine mandates). My area has seen a decrease in beds over the years due to health care consolidation even as the population ages, because heaven forbid we have excess capacity which costs money. Instead pre-pandemic there were long wait times to be admitted, especially for behavioral health. And the covid restrictions have led to spikes in both depression and drug addiction. But the headlines on the news blame everything on people catching covid. The journalists are lazy and do not dig deep or connect the dots in a big picture view. A separate reporter will do a story on covid and mental health, but the lead story on hospital capacity will ignore that factor.
My conclusion, going back to the original topic, would be that going to a Covid party to intentionally get infected is a really bad idea regardless of quibbling over numbers. However, you would be welcome to test the theory if you think otherwise.
iris lilies
11-26-21, 12:01pm
And the news story today is that we are all to be quaking in terror at the latest variant coming out of South Africa, the B11etc version.
I guess the news powers that be allowed everyone to have a happy Thanksgiving and now the day after we need to start up the Covid terror campaign again. By this I do not mean that it’s not a serious disease because it is. Remember, I avoid humans and get all vaccinations, but it’s really tiresome how the “1 to 3 new stories of the day “ program has taken up this latest thing.
pinkytoe
11-26-21, 12:15pm
Propogating fear seems to be the way of media these days. Who really knows anymore what the heck is going on out there with Covid and its variants?
Within some limits, it seems to me like we actually know quite a bit about the existing variants. Not everything, but there is some degree of concensus on many basics. No one know much about the most recent, but it's worth some concern. No doubt the media tends to overplay things and people tend to over react, as indicated by the stock market today.
We are also getting bogus data on covid positivity rates. Many people now buy home tests and if they are negative don't report this to anyone, but if positive do tell their doctor and seek advice on quarantining etc. So with many more negative than positive test results reported the covid positivity rates are inflated.
We are also getting bogus data on covid positivity rates. Many people now buy home tests and if they are negative don't report this to anyone, but if positive do tell their doctor and seek advice on quarantining etc. So with many more negative than positive test results reported the covid positivity rates are inflated.
The common measure here and I think somewhat universally is positive cases per 100,000 population and new cases. How do you think your theory distorts that number?
The common measure here and I think somewhat universally is positive cases per 100,000 population and new cases. How do you think your theory distorts that number?
Looking at test data for colleges and universities where everyone is subject to testing and all results are reported -
In my area positivity rates average 1.5% over the course of the semester with 90% vaccination.
Positivity in the community at large is between 4 and 5% with 67% vaccination.
The general population is 75% as vaccinated as the college population. We know vaccination greatly reduces viral load and transmission. So the college population should have a 25% lower transmission rate than the general population, but it is in fact around 300% lower. From this I infer that there are many negative tests in the general population that are not being reported as well as tests not being conducted. If everyone were tested as they are at institutions of higher ed, instead of just people who feel sick or believe they have been exposed, we would see that the concern about supposedly high positivity rates and community spread is not justified.
iris lilies
11-26-21, 2:49pm
I randomly checked our county stats in Missouri.
St. Louis city ( it is its own county—weird, I know) has less than 50% of its populace fully vaccinated, meaning both doses. Politically it is screaming neon blue.
Saint Charles county, home of Republican centrists, soccer moms, and middle America and generally maligned by city dwellers to be tight assed conservatives, are well above the 50% mark.
I’m not sure why enlightened people in the city are dragging our vaccination numbers down. Well I could guess but it’s not a popular sentiment.
From this I infer that there are many negative tests in the general population that are not being reported as well as tests not being conducted.
As I understand the cases per 100,000 population measure, negative tests are not used in the calculation. So with more testing that could reveal more postive cases, the number could actually be under reported.
iris lilies
11-26-21, 2:57pm
As I understand the cases per 100,000 population measure, negative tests are not used in the calculation. So with more testing that could reveal more postive cases, the number could actually be under reported.
Thanks for this, I couldn’t figure out what negative Covid test would have to do with Jeppy’s statement.
Also, are they measuring the total population, or the total population of people eligible for vaccination? In other words the under five years old group cannot get vaccinations. Are they counted? Until recently, older youth could not be vaccinated either.
I believe it is for thetotal population. This is what I could find...
"To calculate the daily rate of new infections, we look at the average number of newly confirmed cases in the last 7 days per 100,000 residents. Using the population size in the calculation helps us more easily compare larger and smaller counties. A larger county would be expected to have more cases because of the larger population, but expressing the rate per 100,000 residents enables a more equal analysis.
Due to variations in the availability of testing, test-seeking behavior, local outbreaks, and widespread testing in congregate living settings, these data may not accurately represent true community transmission and should be considered with additional factors affecting the community in consultation with District Public Health, who can provide more guidance about the scenario in your county"
It sounds like some places further break that down by vaccination status. If you can access the NYT, cases per 100,000 in their daily map updates is one of the primary measures to determine hot spots across the US and by county. I assume it is used commonly by local health departments.
As I understand the cases per 100,000 population measure, negative tests are not used in the calculation. So with more testing that could reveal more postive cases, the number could actually be under reported.
I believe you are talking about the incidence rate and I am talking about the test positivity rate.
I randomly checked our county stats in Missouri.
St. Louis city ( it is its own county—weird, I know) has less than 50% of its populace fully vaccinated, meaning both doses. Politically it is screaming neon blue.
Saint Charles county, home of Republican centrists, soccer moms, and middle America and generally maligned by city dwellers to be tight assed conservatives, are well above the 50% mark.
I’m not sure why enlightened people in the city are dragging our vaccination numbers down. Well I could guess but it’s not a popular sentiment.
The biggest predictor of whether someone will get a vaccine is age. Older people of all political persuasions are more likely to get vaccinated as they are most at risk. There is also probably no choice in the matter if you are a nursing home resident.
In my city the lowest vaccination rates of those 12 and over - who have had access to the vaccine for enough time to get fully vaccinated - is among 20 somethings, followed by thirtysomethings.
I would suspect IL that in a majority minority city the average lower ages of minority groups might play a role - things like lower life expectancy and more minor children per household. But I have not seen any analysis of this, probably because it is not popular to think this way as you note.
I believe you are talking about the incidence rate and I am talking about the test positivity rate.
My conclusion is that no measure is absolutely perfect., but niether is grossly over or underestimating things. You might differ.
My state is offering monoclonial antibody clinics for at risk people with mid or moderate symptoms. That's something I don't quite understand yet, but it seems like an underutilized tool.
dado potato
11-27-21, 1:17pm
The Mayo Clinic maintains charts and maps which show the hotspots and trends in COVID cases.
For the USA, the average daily cases per 100,000 population was 36 on 9/27/2021. The data improved to 22 on 10/27/2021. As of 11/25/2021 the data worsened to 29.6
With a couple of clicks on the webpage, you can see a state or territory's hotspots or trends. It looks like the trends are better for Texas (maybe because Texans are outdoors more?) ... and worse for Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan.
If the Omicron variant develops into a "fifth wave" in the US, I would expect the trend graphs will track it.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/map
The Omicron virus is a highly evolved variant. It can tell people's nationalities and does not attack US citizens and permanent residents. Therefore they can continue to fly back and forth between here and southern Africa. I think it is overrated because it is also a lazy virus. It was detected a while back but took a long Thanksgiving break to do nothing. Therefore we didn't have to put travel restrictions in place until tomorrow.
What an interesting world some people live in.
Mental health resources for covid issues:
https://mhanational.org/covid19
It seems a Rebublican US Congressman from Texas, Ronny Jackson, has already claimed the Dems will use it as a plan to push for mail in votes in the mid term elections and allow for cheating. Indeed, what an intersting world some live in.
It seems a Rebublican US Congressman from Texas, Ronny Jackson, has already claimed the Dems will use it as a plan to push for mail in votes in the mid term elections and allow for cheating. Indeed, what an intersting world some live in.
This looks like the same Ronny Jackson who was Trump's physician who added an inch to Trump's height, so that he would be merely overweight and not obese on his BMI (among other things). So not at all surprised he'd be making stuff up.
Put up or shut up. If they have evidence of widespread cheating, they should prove it. So far, nobody has.
Put up or shut up. If they have evidence of widespread cheating, they should prove it. So far, nobody has.
Well, all the evidence has been covered up. The very fact that there is no proof, is proof.
‘“It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.”’
It seems a Republican US Congressman from Texas, Ronny Jackson, has already claimed the Dems will use it as a plan to push for mail in votes in the mid term elections and allow for cheating make it more difficult for Republicans to cheat. Indeed, what an interesting world some live in.
Fixed it for you.
Fixed it for you.
Thanks. I be more careful when posting after an afternoon nap.
gimmethesimplelife
11-29-21, 11:52pm
And the plot continues to thicken....
South Africa is now considering a vacciination mandate. And I called my Cousin Astrid in Vienna who says things have become more tense in Austria. For her personally, things boil down to the "inappropriate and anti-social protests that have happened" - my German was good enough to capture about 70 percent of that but I had her husband (a very well paid air traffic controller at the airport in Vienna who speaks flawless British English) translate for me regardless.
Ummmmm.....as someone who has engaged in protests over the years,
A. I agree with mandates period at this point, and
B. I find characterizing protesting in this case as inappropriate and anti-social quite bizarre.
Of course I did not express this. I think of all the social welfare in Austria that Americans are not worth and I keep my mouth shut due to awe of the better deal Austrians get.
But this time? It.was really.hard to keep my mouth shut - it really was. We are talking about horrific deaths here - not whether or not.protesting mandates is inappropriate/anti-social. Though both my Cousin and her husband are vaccinated. I have to say as far as vaccination I am on the same page as they are - I.just find their take on protesting bizarre. Just pass the damn mandate and get your shots, people. Really, this is not that hard. Rob
The South African doctor who discovered omicron says neither she nor her colleagues have hospitalized a single patient with it. Could this be to delta what cowpox was to smallpox - a milder disease that confers immunity against its virulent relative? If so we should be happy it is spreading around the globe.
iris lilies
11-30-21, 1:02pm
The South African doctor who discovered omicron says neither she nor her colleagues have hospitalized a single patient with it. Could this be to delta what cowpox was to smallpox - a milder disease that confers immunity against its virulent relative? If so we should be happy it is spreading around the globe.
I caught a glimpse of certain media’s attempt to minimize this latest Covid iteration.
I take that with a bigger grain of salt than the screaming headlines that greeted us the day after Thanksgiving about the latest horror of Covid known as Omniwhatever.
Both points of view are overstated, and we all will get through it.
It's pretty early to speculate. Today Moderna was saying they could have a vaccine in a hundred days. We may become human pin cushions. Between that, the anti viral pills that are being developed, and monoclonal anti-bodies I doubt that we will go back to ground zero. Third world countries may fair differently.
Public radio had a feature today on the white-tailed deer in Iowa. Something like 80% of them test positive for Covid, but don't seem to show symptoms. That's sort of crazy.
iris lilies
11-30-21, 2:16pm
It's pretty early to speculate. Today Moderna was saying they could have a vaccine in a hundred days. We may become human pin cushions. Between that, the anti viral pills that are being developed, and monoclonal anti-bodies I doubt that we will go back to ground zero. Third world countries may fair differently.
Public radio had a feature today on the white-tailed deer in Iowa. Something like 80% of them test positive for Covid, but don't seem to show symptoms. That's sort of crazy.
No doubt than the deer frolicking around my yard that I can see any moment have Covid as well.
I know that dogs get coronavirus is but I don’t know any study that says it’s COVID-19.
To be more specific, the deer are infected with Covid-19.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/11/10/1054224204/how-sars-cov-2-in-american-deer-could-alter-the-course-of-the-global-pandemic
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/one_health/downloads/qa-covid-white-tailed-deer-study.pdf
gimmethesimplelife
11-30-21, 4:06pm
It's pretty early to speculate. Today Moderna was saying they could have a vaccine in a hundred days. We may become human pin cushions. Between that, the anti viral pills that are being developed, and monoclonal anti-bodies I doubt that we will go back to ground zero. Third world countries may fair differently.
Public radio had a feature today on the white-tailed deer in Iowa. Something like 80% of them test positive for Covid, but don't seem to show symptoms. That's sort of crazy.That is odd. Maybe deer have.a better immune system than humans? Maybe deer have some enyzme or protein that stops them from coming down with symptoms? Rob
Lyme disease is transmitted to humans via deer ticks. I could see new covid variants from deer transmitting to humans in a similar manner.
Covid-19 is here to stay. We need to accept that and get on with our lives instead of thinking if we force people to quarantine and isolate we can control it.
Lyme disease is transmitted to humans via deer ticks. I could see new covid variants from deer transmitting to humans in a similar manner.
How common is it for respiratory viral infections to be transmitted via subcutaneous blood contamination?
Probably a Ph.D. there...
How common is it for respiratory viral infections to be transmitted via subcutaneous blood contamination?
Probably a Ph.D. there...
More common than to think that in pretty much every state in the country (as studies in various locations have all found covid in deer) humans are running around kissing deer or singing Christmas carols with them or otherwise swapping air in close spaces. If the deer got it from us, we can get a new variant from them. Remember covid in China reached humans via bats.
More common than to think that in pretty much every state in the country (as studies in various locations have all found covid in deer) humans are running around kissing deer or singing Christmas carols with them or otherwise swapping air in close spaces. If the deer got it from us, we can get a new variant from them. Remember covid in China reached humans via bats.
So your theory is that the deer got it via bloodborne transmission from humans? Fascinating.
Definitely Ph.D. material there. Who knows what people do in the backwoods, after all...
So your theory is that the deer got it via bloodborne transmission from humans? Fascinating.
Definitely Ph.D. material there. Who knows what people do in the backwoods, after all...
Probably humans to mosquitoes or some other intermediary host to deer.
Probably humans to mosquitoes or some other intermediary host to deer.
A respiratory virus. Nifty theory...
A respiratory virus. Nifty theory...
Makes more sense than kissing deer, or deer eating human septage as the New York Times guessed.
Maybe there's a phd out there for using infected ticks from deer in place of Covid boosters;)
ApatheticNoMore
12-1-21, 2:55am
plus: prevents covid
minus: causes lyme disease
jk
Maybe there's a PhD out there, as there's lots of lies scientists told us. We don't know lots of things but arrogant officials act like they know everything.
For example, remember in spring 2020 they told us you couldn't get re-infected?
Remember you don't need masks, you do, you need two, you don't need any, now you do, only N95, no any mask will do?
Or spray down everything because it transmits on surfaces?
Or wear a mask when walking by yourself in the woods miles from other people?
Or parents should wear masks in their own home around their children even if none of them have been diagnosed with or are quarantining for covid?
Or we can impose curfews because the virus only apparently transmits at night? And it only transmits in restaurants if you're standing up? And it only transmits on aircraft if you are a foreign national?
ToomuchStuff
12-1-21, 10:05am
plus: prevents covid
minus: causes lyme disease
jk
I always thought people seemed to order their Corona's with Lyme?:laff:
happystuff
12-1-21, 10:40am
I always thought people seemed to order their Corona's with Lyme?:laff:
ROFLOL. Nice one.
happystuff
12-1-21, 10:43am
Re-thought post.
How long after testing positive for Covid and being sick with Covid should you isolate?
My son's unvaccinated in-laws both have Covid now. Yesterday his fil went to the hospital because he had pulse ox of 75% but it was 96% at hospital and they did not admit him but sent him home. His mil is also sick now, tested positive and has bad cough and fever. She is claiming they only need to isolate for 10 days.
This does not seem right to me. I am also very worried about how long the germs can last in the house. She is wanting to see unvaccinated little granddaughter and half vaccinated other granddaughter after 10 days. I think this is nuts.
How to disinfect their house? How long should they remain in isolation?
A friend once-removed was scheduled for cancer surgery yesterday. Fully-vaccinated, she tested positive and is now cooling her heels at home, with no idea when her operation will be re-scheduled. My friend, exposed, just tested negative.
How long after testing positive for Covid and being sick with Covid should you isolate?
My son's unvaccinated in-laws both have Covid now. Yesterday his fil went to the hospital because he had pulse ox of 75% but it was 96% at hospital and they did not admit him but sent him home. His mil is also sick now, tested positive and has bad cough and fever. She is claiming they only need to isolate for 10 days.
This does not seem right to me. I am also very worried about how long the germs can last in the house. She is wanting to see unvaccinated little granddaughter and half vaccinated other granddaughter after 10 days. I think this is nuts.
How to disinfect their house? How long should they remain in isolation?
10 days is the consensus in my area from employers, doctors, and Boards of Health.
The idea that covid spreads on surfaces has largely been debunked.
How long after testing positive for Covid and being sick with Covid should you isolate?
I just looked it up but no similar experience. The CDC site basically says ten days from when it was first detected, plus improving symptoms, plus no fever. However they have some exceptions. If you have a doctor you could ask about the specifics I'd probably go that route in case of any unusual circumstances.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/duration-isolation.html
Just read that the first US person found infected with Omicron variant was fully vaccinated. Hoping his/her case is mild so that people don't freak again.
Just read that the first US person found infected with Omicron variant was fully vaccinated. Hoping his/her case is mild so that people don't freak again.
Too late. They are already freaking out. I am glad I don't have money in the stock market.
[QUOTE=Tybee;[/QUOTE]
I see Rogar provided the link, but the official answer is ten days,.if symptoms are gone.
Not sure there is a need to disinfect the home, actually. I wouldn't lay an infant down for a nap on grandpa's pillow, but most everything else should be okay.
Of course, erring on the side of caution and giving it a few more days is fine - unless the ten day thing was for a special event / gathering?
Too late. They are already freaking out. I am glad I don't have money in the stock market.
May be a good buying opportunity. But after all, look how poorly the market has performed after the initial 2020 covid freakout.
To some, it might be a good time to rebalance and take a few profits regardless.
gimmethesimplelife
12-1-21, 8:32pm
I always thought people seemed to order their Corona's with Lyme?:laff:Th
gimmethesimplelife
12-1-21, 8:34pm
[QUOTE=gimmethesimplelife;397093]/QUOTE]
To some, it might be a good time to rebalance and take a few profits regardless.
True - some folks seem rather unbalanced at the moment :-)
I see Rogar provided the link, but the official answer is ten days,.if symptoms are gone.
Not sure there is a need to disinfect the home, actually. I wouldn't lay an infant down for a nap on grandpa's pillow, but most everything else should be okay.
Of course, erring on the side of caution and giving it a few more days is fine - unless the ten day thing was for a special event / gathering?
Thanks, Rogar and lmerullo! Son and dil are going to call the pediatrician and give him the details when the parents become more stable, and just go with whatever pediatrician says.
Since they both have it now, the 10 days would start after her later onset, but they both have to be without fevers with no tylenol, and with improving symptoms. MIL's cough rules out improving symptoms right now, and it has not been 10 days for her. I am guessing it will probably be more like 20 from his onset, if they both continue to improve.
All plans for gathering ended with their diagnosis. Can regroup after they get better.
All this is up to son and dil, who are angry because these folks would not get vaccinated and downplayed all the dangers, but wanted full access to the grandchildren. So who knows what they will decide.
Do people who survive Covid need the vaccinations as well?
rosarugosa
12-2-21, 8:16am
Tybee: I have heard it consistently recommended that Covid survivors be vaccinated. Many of the survivors argue that they now have natural immunity and should not need the vaccine, but there have been plenty of cases where someone got it a second time, and natural immunity from the virus has even more unknowns than immunity from vaccination.
rosarugosa
12-2-21, 8:18am
Too late. They are already freaking out. I am glad I don't have money in the stock market.
Right, because when the market goes down it never goes back up again. :doh:
Vaccination post covid is still recommended. Here in the states there is no recognition of natural immunity as there is in other parts of the world. Some countries, most notably the EU, have a certificate of recovery valid for variable lengths of time - I've seen anything from 90 days to 9 months given. In order to fully participate in some events one must present a vaccination certificate, and no alternatives are listed.
Thank you. I imagine from their past behaviors, they will refuse to get vaccinated, and it will be up to everyone else to figure out whether they want to be around them or not.
ToomuchStuff
12-2-21, 10:58am
Th
? Not sure what this means?
Thank heavens, the hell, etc?
Right, because when the market goes down it never goes back up again. :doh:
I read once that bear markets are God’s way of returning stocks to their rightful owners.
gimmethesimplelife
12-2-21, 8:45pm
? Not sure what this means?
Thank heavens, the hell, etc?Sorry. I was at work being pulled different directions when I posted this mistake. Maybe Alan can delete it? For some reason I can't delete this from my phone. Rob
My son's in-laws continue to be ill; it's a very scary situation. Fil was admitted to hospital yesterday with a diagnosis of "late stage covid." None of us can figure out what this means--does this mean very severe, or just that he is 12-13 days in? They did not know anymore than he is getting supplemental oxygen and lots of tests.
I feel really guilty for thinking they will not get vaccinated in future; they are terrified.
Tybee sometimes that is what it takes, unfortunately. My parents' mechanic was a covid denier until he landed up in the hospital intubated.
Tybee, I'm sorry for your problems. It seems like our local news has a story every other day about an antivaxxer laying in an ICU bed with them or their family expressing regrets about vaccination when it's too late. I don't totally understand some of the resistance, but I think some of it is cultural or based on poor information. I suppose the vaccine does has some small risk and a few unknowns, like many of our medicines.
I have two friends living out of state who were anti vaxxers and both have tested positive, but only had mild symptoms. So it's not always so bad, but a roll of the dice.
happystuff
12-3-21, 10:42am
Tybee, so sorry to hear about your sils. I hope they recover.
Tybee, so sorry to hear about your sils. I hope they recover.
Thanks, happystuff! They are both doing a little better this morning, and he is not in the ICU, so that is good news. Keeping sending good thoughts for them both, poor guys.
catherine
12-3-21, 11:56am
My son's in-laws continue to be ill; it's a very scary situation. Fil was admitted to hospital yesterday with a diagnosis of "late stage covid." None of us can figure out what this means--does this mean very severe, or just that he is 12-13 days in? They did not know anymore than he is getting supplemental oxygen and lots of tests.
I feel really guilty for thinking they will not get vaccinated in future; they are terrified.
Oh no. So sorry, Tybee. How awful!! I will hold them in my prayers.
ETA: Just read the more positive update. So good to hear, but I will still hold them in my prayers!
Oh no. So sorry, Tybee. How awful!! I will hold them in my prayers.
ETA: Just read the more positive update. So good to hear, but I will still hold them in my prayers!
Thank you so much, Catherine!!
Teacher Terry
12-3-21, 2:31pm
Sending lots of love and light for a quick recovery!
Thank you, Terry, Just spoke with son and he is getting much worse, on forced o2 now in critical care and they are asking his permission to put him on ventilator if need be.
She is worsening, too.
Prayers and love and light are very appreciated, thank you, everyone.
iris lilies
12-4-21, 10:39am
Thank you, Terry, Just spoke with son and he is getting much worse, on forced o2 now in critical care and they are asking his permission to put him on ventilator if need be.
She is worsening, too.
Prayers and love and light are very appreciated, thank you, everyone.
oh no, sorry to hear this.
Thank you, Terry, Just spoke with son and he is getting much worse, on forced o2 now in critical care and they are asking his permission to put him on ventilator if need be.
She is worsening, too.
Prayers and love and light are very appreciated, thank you, everyone.
So sorry to hear this. I didn’t read back far enough. So they are unvaxxed?
Oh, this is awful. I don't have much sympathy with the aggressive anti-vaxxers who proselytize, but this couple was probably just badly misinformed. Hoping for the best possible outcome.
Teacher Terry
12-4-21, 4:20pm
How sad for your SIL to have both parents that sick.
Thank you everyone, for the kind thoughts for my daughter-in-law's parents. He was not intubated today, thank God, and is doing better on forced oxygen in critical care, steroids and Remdesivir. she got monoclonal antibodies treatment this morning but is back at home now. She is by herself alone at her house, so that's not ideal.
Just a one day at a time kind of situation for now.
Good to hear they are doing a bit better.
Thank you so much, everyone, it's nice to be able to just come here and get support!
Thank you so much, everyone, it's nice to be able to just come here and get support!
I'm glad for y'all that things are on an improving trend!!!
Yes, one day at a time. Glad the treatment seems to be having good effect!
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-21, 9:59pm
Glad to hear of the improvement. This virus means business. I know of a bakery clerk at the Hispanic grocery store down the street. Very much against vaccines. Turns out she passed recently from covid. This death was completely unnecessary - and to me very much proof positive that we need a mandate for all.
Also I have another reason. Given that the third world is largely unvaccinated.....it's a breeding ground for mutation(s). I get that this won't happen - but the first world (not just the US only) could get more third worlders vaccinated. I see it that in the first world, much money has been saved (and lives destroyed) via exporting prior well paying jobs. Why not mandate that life itself be honored and sacred via exporting vaccines? It's long overdue that those at the top say Thank You by exporting vaccines. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-21, 10:01pm
Thank you so much, everyone, it's nice to be able to just come here and get support!Wishing for the best here. Rob
Glad to hear of the improvement. This virus means business. I know of a bakery clerk at the Hispanic grocery store down the street. Very much against vaccines. Turns out she passed recently from covid. This death was completely unnecessary - and to me very much proof positive that we need a mandate for all.
Also I have another reason. Given that the third world is largely unvaccinated.....it's a breeding ground for mutation(s). I get that this won't happen - but the first world (not just the US only) could get more third worlders vaccinated. I see it that in the first world, much money has been saved (and lives destroyed) via exporting prior well paying jobs. Why not mandate that life itself be honored and sacred via exporting vaccines? It's long overdue that those at the top say Thank You by exporting vaccines. Rob
The problem with exporting vaccines is that the Pfizer and Moderna have to be kept very cold in special freezers. They can only be kept a short time (2-4 weeks?) in a standard medical refrigerator. The third world doesn’t have very many of the special freezers. The J&J shot can be kept in a regular medical fridge. Think the Astra-Zenica might be similar. Can’t remember.
ApatheticNoMore
12-5-21, 2:05am
I got my booster Friday and am suffering through the inevitable (I suppose) misery. It could be worse, I was able to get out of bed some of the day Saturday and do some small stuff. But I can't say it's fun, it's mostly some muscle pain all over, plus just a general strong feeling of physical malaise and unwellness. Friday night after the vaccine was tough. I do take tylenol. I hope it even matters when omicron comes.
:treadmill:
Glad to hear of the improvement. This virus means business. I know of a bakery clerk at the Hispanic grocery store down the street. Very much against vaccines. Turns out she passed recently from covid. This death was completely unnecessary - and to me very much proof positive that we need a mandate for all.
Also I have another reason. Given that the third world is largely unvaccinated.....it's a breeding ground for mutation(s). I get that this won't happen - but the first world (not just the US only) could get more third worlders vaccinated. I see it that in the first world, much money has been saved (and lives destroyed) via exporting prior well paying jobs. Why not mandate that life itself be honored and sacred via exporting vaccines? It's long overdue that those at the top say Thank You by exporting vaccines. Rob
I used to think this as well, but then I saw Dr. Scott Gottlieb who is on the Board of Pfizer say countries in southern Africa are telling them stop shipping us vaccines, we can't even distribute the ones we have. For all the supply chain issues we have in the US, it is worse there.
So my previous comments about Americans hogging all the doses for their boosters no longer apply.
NPR had an article and charts comparing counties that voted for Trump vs. vaccination rate, and those who voted for Trump vs death rate.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate
iris lilies
12-5-21, 10:02am
I got my booster Friday and am suffering through the inevitable (I suppose) misery. It could be worse, I was able to get out of bed some of the day Saturday and do some small stuff. But I can't say it's fun, it's mostly some muscle pain all over, plus just a general strong feeling of physical malaise and unwellness. Friday night after the vaccine was tough. I do take tylenol. I hope it even matters when omicron comes.
:treadmill:
ANM, so sorry to hear this booster hit you like that!
iris lilies
12-5-21, 10:04am
NPR had an article and charts comparing counties that voted for Trump vs. vaccination rate, and those who voted for Trump vs death rate.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate
My Biden/Hilary/Obama voting county has a lower vaccine rate than the Republican county up the road.
But ok. I guess we are outliers.
Coincidence may not imply causation, but it an interesting premise that I buy into.
Coincidence may not imply causation, but it an interesting premise that I buy into.
I think it's more interesting to think that different county characteristics such as rural vs urban, median income level, median educational attainment, etc., are ignored in favor of whether or not 51% or more of any given county voted for Trump. The media continues to be fixated on that.
I could say that Trump voters are more likely to buy into conspiracy misinformation, and they could be independent of each other or not. But demographics is probably an important element.
I could say that Trump voters are more likely to buy into conspiracy misinformation, and they could be independent of each other or not. But demographics is probably an important element.
A venn diagram might be illuminating.
I think it's more interesting to think that different county characteristics such as rural vs urban, median income level, median educational attainment, etc., are ignored in favor of whether or not 51% or more of any given county voted for Trump. The media continues to be fixated on that.
Our contemporary shamans use politics in the same way their forebears used evil spirits to explain the world around us.
iris lilies
12-5-21, 11:45am
I could say that Trump voters are more likely to buy into conspiracy misinformation, and they could be independent of each other or not. But demographics is probably an important element.
Some “conspiracy misinformation” is more wacko than other. But that’s only my opinion, as it is yours as to what is conspiracy.
My bucket of “could be true” conspiracies include Jeffery Epstein killed and John F. Kennedy killed by multiple people.
My view of “those are crazy wacko ideas” include we never went to the moon, George Bush caused the twin towers to fall, HIV is a lab created virus to wipe out African Americans by making them sterile.
Some “conspiracy misinformation” is more wacko than other...
Stop the steal.
happystuff
12-5-21, 12:35pm
ANM, I hope you are feeling better now.
"My bucket of “could be true” conspiracies include Jeffery Epstein killed and John F. Kennedy killed by multiple people."
I'm with you; that whole Jeffrey Epstein thing was just full of "coincidences."
ToomuchStuff
12-5-21, 5:15pm
Some “conspiracy misinformation” is more wacko than other. But that’s only my opinion, as it is yours as to what is conspiracy.
My bucket of “could be true” conspiracies include Jeffery Epstein killed and John F. Kennedy killed by multiple people.
My view of “those are crazy wacko ideas” include we never went to the moon, George Bush caused the twin towers to fall, HIV is a lab created virus to wipe out African Americans by making them sterile.
What about the whole flat earth thing?
You know the earth is somewhere around 70-80% water, correct?
You realize it is uncarbonated?:D
Our contemporary shamans use politics in the same way their forebears used evil spirits to explain the world around us.
As a follow up, NPR had a feature about the growing alliance between anti-vaxx activists and pro-Trump Republics. I'm starting to think the relationship between GOP and Covid vaccination rates and Covid deaths is not coincidence.
https://www.npr.org/2021/12/06/1057344561/anti-vaccine-activists-political-conference-trump-republicans
iris lilies
12-6-21, 11:38am
As a follow up, NPR had a feature about the growing alliance between anti-vaxx activists and pro-Trump Republics. I'm starting to think the relationship between GOP and Covid vaccination rates and Covid deaths is not coincidence.
https://www.npr.org/2021/12/06/1057344561/anti-vaccine-activists-political-conference-trump-republicans
i would like to point out that “anti-vaccine activist” doesn’t necessarily mean “anti-vax” in the whole. The NPR article talks about mandating vaccines.
I would advocate against vaccine mandates since I find that idea horrifying, but I think the Covid-vaccine is fine to take freely, and I would encourage all to get it.
I don't really know but having more education seems to play a part in the party one belongs to these days. Thinking skills ya know.
catherine
12-6-21, 11:48am
Some “conspiracy misinformation” is more wacko than other. But that’s only my opinion, as it is yours as to what is conspiracy.
My bucket of “could be true” conspiracies include Jeffery Epstein killed and John F. Kennedy killed by multiple people.
My view of “those are crazy wacko ideas” include we never went to the moon, George Bush caused the twin towers to fall, HIV is a lab created virus to wipe out African Americans by making them sterile.
I agree with you on your lists of possible vs wacko conspiracy theories.
Another "could be true" conspiracy theory is that TWA800 was really downed by an accidental missile strike by the Coast Guard.
iris lilies
12-6-21, 11:55am
I don't really know but having more education seems to play a part in the party one belongs to these days. Thinking skills ya know.
I would be real careful with that. Plays a part, maybe, but that’s as far as I would go.
The three hardcore Trumpsters in my immediate circle who also are not getting vaccine for Covid are smart and/or well educated. One has a PhD in the sciences from an
Ivy, one has a master’s degree plus 80 hours in the sciences, and the other has a 4 year degree and high IQ.
Then there are the Trump voters I know who have advanced degrees but also got Covid vaccine.
I don't really know but having more education seems to play a part in the party one belongs to these days. Thinking skills ya know.
I don't know about Covid, but it certainly is the case with climate change beliefs.
I'm still waiting for the truth on UFOs.
EDIT: I could tell anecdotal stories about phd's I"ve know who couldn't change the proverbial hubcap, but I don't think those represent the group as a whole.
happystuff
12-6-21, 12:18pm
I would be real careful with that. Plays a part, maybe, but that’s as far as I would go.
The three hardcore Trumpsters in my immediate circle who also are not getting vaccine for Covid are smart and/or well educated. One has a PhD in the sciences from an
Ivy, one has a master’s degree plus 80 hours in the sciences, and the other has a 4 year degree and high IQ.
Then there are the Trump voters I know who have advanced degrees but also got Covid vaccine.
Not saying this is right or wrong, but I've met many people with all levels of educational degrees that have very little - if any - common sense or intelligence beyond "book learning".
I've come to the conclusion that each person is unique unto themself.
happystuff
12-6-21, 12:20pm
I don't know about Covid, but it certainly is the case with climate change beliefs.
I'm still waiting for the truth on UFOs.
Well, we all know that professional wrestling IS real!!! :D
iris lilies
12-6-21, 12:27pm
Well, we all know that professional wrestling IS real!!! :D
Actually, it is a tough physical activity. I’m not sure I would call it a “sport.”
while so much of the action is theatrical, there are real injuries and people really do get beat up.
Chicken lady
12-6-21, 12:28pm
We do already mandate vaccines you know - for public school, and the military, and a lot of other careers - with varied options for exemptions. In some case none - it’s if you want this job, you take this shot.
No way was my republican state going to let my unchurched self announce that I had a sincerely held religious belief that my kids should not be vaccinated and send them to public school. I know, because they never asked for my oldest child’s records. And when they realized they didn’t have them, they told me I had to come get them and not bring them back without vaccination records. I negotiated. I gave them dates over the phone and they gave me four days to get official records.
Even kids who have religious or medical exemptions have to stay home if there is an outbreak.
So fine - your kid is an exception. Keep them home. You are an exception, welcome to the wonderful world of telecommuting, video streamed entertainment, online shopping, and curbside pick up.
happystuff
12-6-21, 12:36pm
Actually, it is a tough physical activity. I’m not sure I would call it a “sport.”
while so much of the action is theatrical, there are real injuries and people really do get beat up.
Yes, I realize. :) I used to be quite the fan. My favorite way back when was Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat. LOL.
Not saying this is right or wrong, but I've met many people with all levels of educational degrees that have very little - if any - common sense or intelligence beyond "book learning".
I've come to the conclusion that each person is unique unto themself.
Completely agree. The individual is “the smallest minority.” It gets dumber from there.
I’ve also met many people with advanced degrees who betrayed scant evidence of much book learning as well. Prior to Covid, most of the anti-vaxxers I was aware of were of the affluent, educated classes.
I still think anyone using this virus as a way of exhibiting their tribal affiliation is foolishness. I wish they’d go back to NPR tote bags or 2nd Amendment bumper stickers as gang colors.
happystuff
12-6-21, 12:39pm
I still think anyone using this virus as a way of exhibiting their tribal affiliation is foolishness. I wish they’d go back to NPR tote bags or 2nd Amendment bumper stickers as gang colors.
Sort of agree, as I do love the easy identification provided by the red MAGA hats, shirts, etc.
Sort of agree, as I do love the easy identification provided by the red MAGA hats, shirts, etc.
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