View Full Version : Conavirus......
Chicken lady
9-16-20, 8:29am
“Most six year olds will do as they are told” - LOL!
i teach.
if the child won’t wear his mask, he has to go home. If the child refused to wear pants, they would make him go home. And I personally don’t think a six year old in his underpants is a threat to others.
if his parents won’t make him wear a mask, they will have to homeschool him. If you are a nudist, you still can’t send your kid to school naked.
my school’s “mask breaks” are outside six feet apart.
happystuff
9-17-20, 10:04am
I see a big threat to civil liberties from those who want to fine and arrest people for not wearing masks, or infinitely worse, for not believing in wearing masks.
I still have questions:
Where does someone's civil liberty to NOT wear a mask end and my civil liberty to NOT be infected by said person begin?
I still ponder the idea that if someone is deliberately NOT wearing a mask and they pass on the virus to someone who dies... is it murder? Possibly even premeditated murder? By now, everyone knows or should know what is going on and *choosing* not to wear a mask should mean that one is choosing to accept the consequences. It's still a matter of determining those consequences.
And, finally, does anyone know what has happened in any of the cases where legal action was taken against the various "15-minutes of fame" people who were charged for not wearing a mask and endangered someone/others? (i.e. the cancer patient who was spit on - I think that was one)
I still have questions:
Where does someone's civil liberty to NOT wear a mask end and my civil liberty to NOT be infected by said person begin?
I still ponder the idea that if someone is deliberately NOT wearing a mask and they pass on the virus to someone who dies... is it murder? Possibly even premeditated murder? By now, everyone knows or should know what is going on and *choosing* not to wear a mask should mean that one is choosing to accept the consequences. It's still a matter of determining those consequences.
And, finally, does anyone know what has happened in any of the cases where legal action was taken against the various "15-minutes of fame" people who were charged for not wearing a mask and endangered someone/others? (i.e. the cancer patient who was spit on - I think that was one)
Since you have quoted me here, I will reply, but otherwise, I am best advised to stay off of this thread, as I find the discourse to be unhelpful and unpleasant.
I don't know the answer to the first question you ask, but find your reasoning quite frightening, that you want to charge someone with murder for not wearing a mask.
I am best staying away from this thread entirely, as people here seem to think it's fine to suspend a first grader on the first day of school, rather than to try to meet him where he is at, nurture him, and teach him, and to charge someone with murder for not wearing a mask. These are not reasonable positions to me, and in fact, I find them quite disturbing, so bowing out now.
happystuff
9-17-20, 10:20am
I don't know the answer to the first question you ask, but find your reasoning quite frightening, that you want to charge someone with murder for not wearing a mask.
No, I don't want to charge someone for murder for not wearing a mask. I am asking if someone should be charged with murder if their actions - not wearing a mask - result in the death of someone else.
Thanks, this is a good clarification. Good luck with discussing this further.
Teacher Terry
9-17-20, 11:43am
I think CL has it right. You send a kid home that won’t wear a mask. You don’t suspend them. I think not wearing a mask and purposely spitting on someone are 2 different things. The large stores here have security at the door and if you don’t have a mask they don’t let you enter.
iris lilies
9-17-20, 11:53am
I still have questions:
Where does someone's civil liberty to NOT wear a mask end and my civil liberty to NOT be infected by said person begin?
I still ponder the idea that if someone is deliberately NOT wearing a mask and they pass on the virus to someone who dies... is it murder? Possibly even premeditated murder? By now, everyone knows or should know what is going on and *choosing* not to wear a mask should mean that one is choosing to accept the consequences. It's still a matter of determining those consequences.
And, finally, does anyone know what has happened in any of the cases where legal action was taken against the various "15-minutes of fame" people who were charged for not wearing a mask and endangered someone/others? (i.e. the cancer patient who was spit on - I think that was one)
It is a nebulous situation that you described. There’s not absolute and direct proof that someone wearing a mask actively or purposely passes this virus on to someone else.
The sick person may have got it from an entirely different source than from that person standing in front of them in line at the grocery store.
To your point about murder, intent is always a consideration in murder charges. First degree murder differs from manslaughter and murder charges because of intent.
Charges for negligence--like not properly securing a load, and a two-by-four flies off and kills someone in a following car? That seems similar.
iris lilies
9-17-20, 12:34pm
Charges for negligence--like not properly securing a load, and a two-by-four flies off and kills someone in a following car? That seems similar.
Prove that my invisible airborne virus entered your airways and sure. But you have to prove it, an event that can’t be verified by eyesight.
Prove that my invisible airborne virus entered your airways and sure. But you have to prove it, an event that can’t be verified by eyesight.I'm always dismayed to see how many think it appropriate to use the state to punish people for what they may have done, or think, or say. It reminds me of a TV commercial from several years ago where the catch phrase was "That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!"
Prove that my invisible airborne virus entered your airways and sure. But you have to prove it, an event that can’t be verified by eyesight.
I suppose they could analyze the pathogen for DNA, or wouldn't contact tracing establish a link? It's all conjecture at this point, anyway.
IMO, people who refuse to wear masks should simply be shunned, most especially the aggressive ones we keep seeing in videos.
frugal-one
9-17-20, 1:35pm
I think CL has it right. You send a kid home that won’t wear a mask. You don’t suspend them. I think not wearing a mask and purposely spitting on someone are 2 different things. The large stores here have security at the door and if you don’t have a mask they don’t let you enter.
I think hairs are being split here. The definition of suspend is temporarily prevent from continuing or being in force or effect. How is suspend different from sending a kid home?
mschrisgo2
9-17-20, 3:13pm
In Public School Language, “suspend” goes on a child’s permanent record for willful misbehavior. “Sending them home” implies no entry on the permanent record, but a chance for the parents/guardianns to effect an attitude adjustment, leading to the desired school behavior, in this case, wearing a mask.
But that is public schools, where I spent my 32 year career. CL teaches in a private school- it may be different there.
happystuff
9-17-20, 4:15pm
I'm always dismayed to see how many think it appropriate to use the state to punish people for what they may have done, or think, or say.
So what is your suggestion on handling things such as hate crimes(things people say) and situations where one person is endangering someone else(things people have done), or preventing such situations from even arising?
I'm always dismayed to see how many think it appropriate to use the state to punish people for what they may have done, or think, or say. It reminds me of a TV commercial from several years ago where the catch phrase was "That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!"
Like the many people of color who are summarily executed for something they may have done, might still do, or whom they may have associated with?
Back to school uniform, Portland style (sent to me by a friend):
3440
Made me laugh out loud.
frugal-one
9-17-20, 4:50pm
I'm always dismayed to see how many think it appropriate to use the state to punish people for what they may have done, or think, or say. It reminds me of a TV commercial from several years ago where the catch phrase was "That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!"
How do you think it should work?
So what is your suggestion on handling things such as hate crimes(things people say) and situations where one person is endangering someone else(things people have done), or preventing such situations from even arising?The idea of a hate crime is antithetical to all the freedoms of expression we enjoy as a civilized society. If I do you harm, punish me for my actions which harm you and not for what I think or say which may offend you.
If I pass you in a parking lot on my way from my car to the grocery store and say hello while pulling my mask from my pocket and putting it on, should you report me to the authorities for your perception of my wanton endangerment? And should I be prosecuted for it? I think that's the natural progression of any popular desire to punish people for what they may have done, so, my suggestion is to avoid people whose thoughts or beliefs you find offensive.
On the flip side, if I sneeze in your face as we pass in the parking lot and you become sick and die as a result and your sickness can be traced directly back to me, consider me guilty as charged and prosecute me, but only if it can be traced directly back to me and you can show intent. The idea of punishing someone who maybe harmed you would be a travesty. Who knows what you may have touched or inhaled elsewhere.
Like the many people of color who are summarily executed for something they may have done, might still do, or whom they may have associated with?Summarily executed? Do you mean like Che Guevara or Chairman Mao or any number of ideologues throughout history have done? I haven't seen anything like that recently. Have you?
I take that back, I have seen many attempts recently to summarily execute police officers but that's probably not what you meant is it?
How do you think it should work?I'm a big fan of rationally.
From the discussion on this thread, there are folks who have no problem imputing really evil motives to others. I do not want those folks in charge of whether I get executed. Or suspended on my first day of school. Poor little guy. Six years old, and already a bad 'un.
Teacher Terry
9-17-20, 5:26pm
I find it sad when people kill cops. I find it equally sad when cops are killing people of color and abusing them because they have the power to do so. It’s a 2 way street. The cops that killed Breanna have yet to be charged yet the family was paid 12 million. If it was my family member wouldn’t want money. I would want them to be charged and have a fair trial. That’s the only way things will change.
Teacher Terry
9-17-20, 5:29pm
Tybee, I agree that you don’t want to label a first grader a problem. That’s why I suggested sending them home and doing online school if that’s a option. Some little kids won’t be mature enough for masks.
Terry, it was his very first day of school.
I find it sad when people kill cops. I find it equally sad when cops are killing people of color and abusing them because they have the power to do so. If we were actually afflicted with the evil of hate crime laws, would your blanket statement qualify as an inducement to violence through hate? I think making public statements such as this and another poster's "summarily executed" claim are irresponsible and stoke the flames of violence, but I'm glad you can't be arrested for expressing the opinion, however offensive it may be.
sum•ma•ri•ly ►
In a summary manner; briefly; concisely; in a narrow compass, or in few words; in a short way or method; without delay; promptly; without hesitation or formality.
I stand by my statement. Tamir Rice was killed within seconds of officers pulling up; the patrol car had not even stopped moving. There are many, many examples.
Chicken lady
9-17-20, 6:55pm
Tybee,
it is REALLY sad that his parents set him up to have a bad first day of school. It is also REALLY sad that schools formally suspend six year olds (but some may have no choice, rules and processes get set up because people aren’t reasonable and can’t just come get their kid, accept that the rule is a rule and either change school options or communicate to their kid that this is the price of admission and it will be paid.)
And yes, the parents set him up. They had to have some idea that that would happen, and they did not work with him adequately ahead of time to ensure that it did not.
where I teach, the child would have either put his mask back on, or been moved to our very pleasant quarantine while waiting for your parents room where he would be supervised Until his parents came to get him. Meanwhile the director would have had a phone conversation with them that would most likely lead to an in person meeting, and what happened next would have depended on how that went. As far as I know, we have had three students formally expelled and four suspended pending counseling. (One student was unfortunately in both categories - he was a clear danger to others) usually the parting of ways involves parents choosing withdrawal or the director saying basically “we don’t believe our program meets your needs at this time. We will refund the balance of your tuition and we wish you well on your educational journey.” Sometimes there is also an invitation to return if something changes.
Tybee,
it is REALLY sad that his parents set him up to have a bad first day of school. It is also REALLY sad that schools formally suspend six year olds (but some may have no choice, rules and processes get set up because people aren’t reasonable and can’t just come get their kid, accept that the rule is a rule and either change school options or communicate to their kid that this is the price of admission and it will be paid.)
And yes, the parents set him up. They had to have some idea that that would happen, and they did not work with him adequately ahead of time to ensure that it did not.
where I teach, the child would have either put his mask back on, or been moved to our very pleasant quarantine while waiting for your parents room where he would be supervised Until his parents came to get him. Meanwhile the director would have had a phone conversation with them that would most likely lead to an in person meeting, and what happened next would have depended on how that went. As far as I know, we have had three students formally expelled and four suspended pending counseling. (One student was unfortunately in both categories - he was a clear danger to others) usually the parting of ways involves parents choosing withdrawal or the director saying basically “we don’t believe our program meets your needs at this time. We will refund the balance of your tuition and we wish you well on your educational journey.” Sometimes there is also an invitation to return if something changes.
Sounds like your school has a plan set up that works for your school, that's great.
Anyone who advocates suspending a child on his very first day of school because he disobeyed an order like that is not someone I want involved in my child's education. Luckily, my three sons are all grown and I do not have to worry about any of my grandchildren's schooling; their parents have that nicely under control, and are sensible, caring, nurturing parents. I am very lucky!
The child was not suspended; I'm not quite sure what happened. He was in my son's friend's class. They were laughing about it, and I think the teacher handled it in-house, and all was well. He's a good teacher. Sometimes, you have to get buy-in, even from the little ones. Admittedly, I only student taught in first grade, but I found them a fascinating age group, and it was a lovely experience. You definitely had a major impact on them, and how they saw school for the rest of their lives. I remember figuring out how to teach one child how to remember the letters in the alphabet, when she'd been struggling all year. What a rewarding day that was.
I've taught college since 1979. I don't think I've ever had a moment that rewarding in all those years, as teaching Lisa that alphabet song.
gimmethesimplelife
9-17-20, 8:15pm
Well, this country was founded upon the principle of individual liberty outside the tyranny of an oppressive government. It's been part of our national character for so long those of us who believe in that sort of thing would rather do things for the right reason than demand our leaders force us to do so. I think that's the opposite of pathetic, but being able to disagree may be the ultimate personal liberty these days. I hope we all get to keep it.We really could learn a lot about how to sanely run a country truly worth living in from our Social Democratic neighbor to the north - Canada. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-17-20, 8:20pm
Luanda and Craig have Covid - former neighbors that moved to Nogales, AZ. Craig tells me that the Borderland numbers are going up, the the government is lying,and rhat he expects martial law soon. Who knows what to believe but they are both home, both sick, but both not critical. Rob
frugal-one
9-17-20, 9:16pm
I'm a big fan of rationally.
Your remark from above---
If I pass you in a parking lot on my way from my car to the grocery store and say hello while pulling my mask from my pocket and putting it on, should you report me to the authorities for your perception of my wanton endangerment? And should I be prosecuted for it? I think that's the natural progression of any popular desire to punish people for what they may have done, so, my suggestion is to avoid people whose thoughts or beliefs you find offensive.
This is not rational or even a good example. Who would actually do this? Now, if you were in the store and were not wearing a mask and sneezed on me... that is another story.
This is not rational or even a good example. Who would actually do this? You're right, it's not rational and that was my point even though my example didn't live up to expectations.
Now, if you were in the store and were not wearing a mask and sneezed on me... that is another story. I think I covered that too although with a qualifier. Did I actually harm you when I sneezed on you or do you want me prosecuted regardless?
frugal-one
9-17-20, 9:29pm
You're right, it's not rational and that was my point even though my example didn't live up to expectations.
I think I covered that too although with a qualifier. Did I actually harm you when I sneezed on you or do you want me prosecuted regardless?
It would depend. I can't categorically say.
It would depend. I can't categorically say.
Well that's an interesting answer. What variable could it possibly depend upon if you're not harmed?
I don't wear hats, MAGA or otherwise, I've never torn the sleeves off a perfectly good shirt as a fashion statement and outside of being ruggedly good looking with a butt that looks good in my Levi button fly's I'm rather non-descript in an older man with a developing paunch sort of way, so does that make a difference? ;)
If we were actually afflicted with the evil of hate crime laws, would your blanket statement qualify as an inducement to violence through hate? I think making public statements such as this and another poster's "summarily executed" claim are irresponsible and stoke the flames of violence, but I'm glad you can't be arrested for expressing the opinion, however offensive it may be.
So you don't think george floyd and breonia taylor's deaths were appaling??? If that's the case we have a drastic difference of opinion here.
happystuff
9-18-20, 7:47am
The idea of a hate crime is antithetical to all the freedoms of expression we enjoy as a civilized society. If I do you harm, punish me for my actions which harm you and not for what I think or say which may offend you.
If I pass you in a parking lot on my way from my car to the grocery store and say hello while pulling my mask from my pocket and putting it on, should you report me to the authorities for your perception of my wanton endangerment? And should I be prosecuted for it? I think that's the natural progression of any popular desire to punish people for what they may have done, so, my suggestion is to avoid people whose thoughts or beliefs you find offensive.
On the flip side, if I sneeze in your face as we pass in the parking lot and you become sick and die as a result and your sickness can be traced directly back to me, consider me guilty as charged and prosecute me, but only if it can be traced directly back to me and you can show intent. The idea of punishing someone who maybe harmed you would be a travesty. Who knows what you may have touched or inhaled elsewhere.
I understand what you are saying, but I'm getting the impression that you are defining "harm" as being limited to physical harm only. I think that is where at least part of our opinions differ.
And, yes, I believe like other crimes/charges/etc. there must be investigations, charges, trials, etc. Procedures to be followed - all part of the consequences of the actions.
As for "thinking"... think whatever you want, but the minute those thoughts become actions - verbal or physical, etc. - one takes the risk of another perceiving it as "harm".
frugal-one
9-18-20, 8:54am
Well that's an interesting answer. What variable could it possibly depend upon if you're not harmed?
I don't wear hats, MAGA or otherwise, I've never torn the sleeves off a perfectly good shirt as a fashion statement and outside of being ruggedly good looking with a butt that looks good in my Levi button fly's I'm rather non-descript in an older man with a developing paunch sort of way, so does that make a difference? ;)
Happystuff says it well. And, yes, I would be harmed just with worrying that I could possibly be infected — equating this the same way a person who has HIV could possibly infect people. This is a DEADLY virus.
It is ridiculous to even talk about your appearance. Who gives a rat’s ass?!!
Teacher Terry
9-18-20, 11:05am
Alan, how is my statement a hate statement? I hate cops being killed and cops killing people. It’s reality and I don’t like either happening.
ApatheticNoMore
9-18-20, 11:18am
We arrest and send people to jail for driving under the influence even if they aren't in an accident never mind one that has injured or killed people. So anyone who opposes mask laws better oppose DUI laws.
gimmethesimplelife
9-18-20, 12:53pm
I find it sad when people kill cops. I find it equally sad when cops are killing people of color and abusing them because they have the power to do so. It’s a 2 way street. The cops that killed Breanna have yet to be charged yet the family was paid 12 million. If it was my family member wouldn’t want money. I would want them to be charged and have a fair trial. That’s the only way things will change.I agree to a point, TT. The good thing about huge settlements, though? They encourage more litigation upon more litigation adding up yo a lot of money. Perhaps the system will collapse upon itself, forcing change, irrevocably remving qualified immunity from officers and forcing POC American life, at least on the surface, to have some value/merit? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-18-20, 12:54pm
Like the many people of color who are summarily executed for something they may have done, might still do, or whom they may have associated with?Plus one trillion. Rob
frugal-one
9-18-20, 1:50pm
Sounds like your school has a plan set up that works for your school, that's great.
Anyone who advocates suspending a child on his very first day of school because he disobeyed an order like that is not someone I want involved in my child's education. Luckily, my three sons are all grown and I do not have to worry about any of my grandchildren's schooling; their parents have that nicely under control, and are sensible, caring, nurturing parents. I am very lucky!
The child was not suspended; I'm not quite sure what happened. He was in my son's friend's class. They were laughing about it, and I think the teacher handled it in-house, and all was well. He's a good teacher. Sometimes, you have to get buy-in, even from the little ones. Admittedly, I only student taught in first grade, but I found them a fascinating age group, and it was a lovely experience. You definitely had a major impact on them, and how they saw school for the rest of their lives. I remember figuring out how to teach one child how to remember the letters in the alphabet, when she'd been struggling all year. What a rewarding day that was.
I've taught college since 1979. I don't think I've ever had a moment that rewarding in all those years, as teaching Lisa that alphabet song.
Unbelievable.
Europe is starting its second wave, including in countries with mask mandates. So much for them being an effective preventive measure.
happystuff
9-19-20, 10:45am
Europe is starting its second wave, including in countries with mask mandates. So much for them being an effective preventive measure.
Reallly? Imagine how bad it would be if people DIDN'T use them!!!
gimmethesimplelife
9-19-20, 10:50am
Reallly? Imagine how bad it would be if people DIDN'T use them!!!Agreed. I can also say that in Austria, it's now considered socially deviant to not wear a mask. Rob
Speaking of Europe, I was listening online to BBC Radio 5 live late in the week. There’s some discussion of another lockdown in the UK. The host brought up the further economic damage another lockdown could do. One caller was screaming at him, saying that anyone who worries about the economy is a murderer. Another caller was talking about he was about to lose his house.
I know some parts of England are having more restrictions added due to number of rising cases.
ApatheticNoMore
9-19-20, 4:16pm
They shouldn't have stopped the payments to people and people would not lose their houses.
They shouldn't have stopped the payments to people and people would not lose their houses.
I bet in most places any unemployment benefits aren’t going to be enough to pay a mortgage and all your other regular bills. The guy in question worked in hospitality.
frugal-one
9-19-20, 5:44pm
I heard on the new (??) that if all people would just wear a mask, follow social distancing, no large crowds for 6 weeks everything would calm down and people could get on with their lives..... Doesn't sound unreasonable but, of course, there are those who think it is their right not to wear a mask. A person might still have to wear a mask but life could go on with little or no deaths until a better solution shows up.
Speaking of Europe, I was listening online to BBC Radio 5 live late in the week. There’s some discussion of another lockdown in the UK. The host brought up the further economic damage another lockdown could do. One caller was screaming at him, saying that anyone who worries about the economy is a murderer. Another caller was talking about he was about to lose his house.
I know some parts of England are having more restrictions added due to number of rising cases.
Yes. In various parts of Europe they are talking about shutting down businesses, not allowing people to travel more than 1 kilometer from home, and cutting way down on gathering sizes, because masks just are not cutting it.
Yes. In various parts of Europe they are talking about shutting down businesses, not allowing people to travel more than 1 kilometer from home, and cutting way down on gathering sizes, because masks just are not cutting it.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/16/cdc-director-says-face-masks-may-provide-more-protection-than-coronavirus-vaccine-.html
Face coverings are “the most powerful public health tool” the nation has against the coronavirus (https://www.cnbc.com/small-business-advice/) and might even provide better protection against it than a vaccine, the head of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told lawmakers Wednesday.
“We have clear scientific evidence they work, and they are our best defense,” CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield said (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/16/watch-live-top-health-officials-testify-before-senate-committee-on-us-coronavirus-response-efforts-.html). “I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine.”
That's my admittedly lay view of masks vs vaccines as well. If the vaccine proves to be effective, I would still wear a mask until the virus subsides.
iris lilies
9-19-20, 6:09pm
I was shopping today in the antique mall and a customer was yelling at a employee because employee’s mask was not covering some essential part of her face.
Eye roll.
These are semi genteel people who work here and who shop here, so it’s not like Walmart hoosiers. It was slightly entertaining, slightly distracting.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/16/cdc-director-says-face-masks-may-provide-more-protection-than-coronavirus-vaccine-.html
Face coverings are “the most powerful public health tool” the nation has against the coronavirus (https://www.cnbc.com/small-business-advice/) and might even provide better protection against it than a vaccine, the head of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told lawmakers Wednesday.
“We have clear scientific evidence they work, and they are our best defense,” CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield said (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/16/watch-live-top-health-officials-testify-before-senate-committee-on-us-coronavirus-response-efforts-.html). “I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine.”
That's my admittedly lay view of masks vs vaccines as well. If the vaccine proves to be effective, I would still wear a mask until the virus subsides.
According to a scientist at UC Davis "social distancing reduces the risk of transmission of the virus by 90%, and wearing masks decreases the risk by 65%."
I am hoping for a vaccine that is 70% effective, a figure I have seen scientists say is realistic. But for now social distancing is our best defense. Masks even if properly and consistently worn do not stop small particles. An analogy would be celibacy is much better than a condom at preventing pregnancy.
People are pushing masks because they are lonely and bored and want to have things like weekly card parties with their friends and weekly date nights with their spouses instead of staying home until this is over.
To me, those figures mean we keep using both social distancing and masks until we get a vaccine and a cure. Why not improve our odds and lessen the chances of folks getting sick?
Tybee do you wear a mask when you are by yourself at home? Or is the social distancing sufficient? What if you are out walking and you can avoid others by crossing the street? Why do both if one will suffice and masks are burdensome and impede breathing?
Huh? Why would I wear a mask by myself at home? I am not following you. Who would do that?
Huh? Why would I wear a mask by myself at home? I am not following you. Who would do that?
You could have an open window and germs float over from the neighbors. But the distance is great enough to protect you. Distance is our savior, not masks.
happystuff
9-19-20, 7:50pm
Tybee do you wear a mask when you are by yourself at home? Or is the social distancing sufficient? What if you are out walking and you can avoid others by crossing the street? Why do both if one will suffice and masks are burdensome and impede breathing?
Wear a mask by yourself at home? You really don't make sense. Out walking AND cross the street - yes, I still wear a mask! Masks may be burdensome and impede breathing to some, but why not ask Tammy on these forums how her covid recovery is going after... how many WEEKS/MONTHS!?!?
Keep being a whiner about masks and I'll still wear one to help keep myself and people like you safer. Have a good day and I really hope you DON'T get the virus.
Masks are also harmful because they give people a false sense of security. They stop social distancing and put themselves at greater risk than if they were barefaced and social distancing. They are only 65% protected versus 90% protected. They are worse off.
happystuff
9-19-20, 8:04pm
Masks are also harmful because they give people a false sense of security. They stop social distancing and put themselves at greater risk than if they were barefaced and social distancing. They are only 65% protected versus 90% protected. They are worse off.
What people?
Another way to think of this is imagine that you know for a fact that someone has covid. Would you hang around them less than 6 feet apart only wearing a random cloth face covering? Would you go into a covid ICU like this and feel safe, or would you keep your distance? Which is safer, the mask which some are saying is "the best" protection, better than a vaccine? Or the distance, staying away from the hospital, which I and experts say is "the best"?
Back to my analogy. If you knew for a fact someone had AIDS would you say okay I'll have sex with the person, use a condom and take the chance it won't break? Or would you sexually distance yourself from that person, or double bag or something equivalent to an N-95 mask specially fit to your face?
happystuff
9-19-20, 8:38pm
Yppej, I don't know if you have already answered this somewhere or not but... how, when, where and why do you actually wear a mask?
Do you wear one to protect yourself AND others, or just yourself, or not even to protect yourself?
Do you wear a mask only where the rules/requirements mandate the wearing of one? If your work made it optional, would you still wear one? If you are outside, do you wear one? When you are not wearing one are you ensuring you are social distancing properly?
When you wear a mask, do you wear it properly or just 'however', as long as it is somewhere on your face?
And I ask these questions to try to figure out what you are actually doing - not other people, but you! Regardless of all your anti-mask posts, what are your actual actions regarding masks?
I think it’s obvious that we do both. We socially distance when possible (at home alone without a mask) and we we wear a mask when we have a necessary reason to go out (groceries, pharmacy).
It’s both/and, not either/or.
I think it’s obvious that we do both. We socially distance when possible (at home alone without a mask) and we we wear a mask when we have a necessary reason to go out (groceries, pharmacy).
It’s both/and, not either/or.
The key phrase here is "necessary reason to go out". People are going out unnecessarily because they are bored and justifying it by saying, "But I'm wearing a mask." Even with groceries and pharmacy, many businesses are now delivering. In my area pharmacies are doing so at no additional charge, and there are pharmacy drive-thrus as well. If people had just stayed home for a few weeks in March and we kept the borders closed we'd be done with the virus already. If you get transmissibility below 1.0 it dies out.
Teacher Terry
9-19-20, 10:29pm
Most people I know stayed home for almost 3 months. Europe is in bad shape because Europeans love to vacation and many did so in August.
The key phrase here is "necessary reason to go out". People are going out unnecessarily because they are bored and justifying it by saying, "But I'm wearing a mask." Even with groceries and pharmacy, many businesses are now delivering. In my area pharmacies are doing so at no additional charge, and there are pharmacy drive-thrus as well. If people had just stayed home for a few weeks in March and we kept the borders closed we'd be done with the virus already. If you get transmissibility below 1.0 it dies out.
Agreed. I had my pharmacy mail my meds this month.
I wear a mask because I believe in a layered approach to not dying. There are various things we can do to reduce risk. Masks are one of those things. Social distancing another. Not going to indoor spaces with other people a third. Some people want to be stupid. I choose not to be around them. Thankfully I live in a state that takes this seriously. My county’s infection rate has been relatively stable for quite a while now.
There's a serious problem in a number of areas with under 30 year olds not social isolating and having parties and the like. In Chicago/Cook County, something like 1/3 of new cases are in this age group.
I wonder if unexpected pregnancy is also the same problem in these groups? Even at my age, I remember the incredibly stupid things I did at that age (and wish I could forget them).
jpg, I am with you. We are being careful, staying away from strangers and most that we know. Masks are always worn. We were talking about cash transactions yesterday. Only need it at the tomato stand so I said give me $10 worth and did not need cash back. Cannot remember another time I used cash.
The 9/18 podcase (also on youtube) for This Week in Virology has a great discussion on the virus, masks, transmission, etc. They update weekly.
I've been surprised that more recently some of my neighbors who have been following what I consider good practice have eased up on their behavior. I've turned down invitations to backyard gatherings where there have been fifteen or twenty maskless people with food sharing, albeit outdoors. I go past sports fields where young people are practicing and seem blissful to any distancing. And not to mention the big events like pro sports and political rallies or college parties.
I have noticed some adult socially distancing and responsible exercise classes in parks and the crowds on the local walking and bicycling trails are down to a level where they don't seem quite the risk they once were, although masks are less than common. I've had some small outdoor gathering of friends where there is good social distancing, but may lose some social skills when the weather turns colder. I'm still putting off a dental check up and a minor medical procedure, but plan on having my routine physical next month if things look about the same. My best guess is that there will be a second wave when the weather turns colder, the Holidays, and people spending more time indoors. I'm fairly comfortable shopping most anyplace as long as I can go at a less crowded time and can get in and out quickly, but still order a few necessities online. And just got my high dose flu shot.
The popular index these days seems to be rate of infection of those tested. My state is around 3.5%. Last I looked Iowa and a few other states were around 25%. My 92 year old neighbor has relatives in Iowa and says a whole family of Iowa relatives is infected. He referred to them as "Trump supporters".
happystuff
9-20-20, 8:04am
There's a serious problem in a number of areas with under 30 year olds not social isolating and having parties and the like. In Chicago/Cook County, something like 1/3 of new cases are in this age group.
Yes, I've read some stories about this. Had a young person go to Florida for a death in the family and came back saying how surprised they were that very few people - regardless of age - were wearing masks. It was the first I've actually talked to someone who witnessed/experienced the blatant not-wearing. Most anti-maskers I know of are mainly whiners who will still mask up for self-preservation, even if not to help protect others.
Jane v2.0
9-20-20, 11:16am
I wear a mask because I believe in a layered approach to not dying. There are various things we can do to reduce risk. Masks are one of those things. Social distancing another. Not going to indoor spaces with other people a third. Some people want to be stupid. I choose not to be around them. Thankfully I live in a state that takes this seriously. My county’s infection rate has been relatively stable for quite a while now.
Bears repeating. I'm even more of a hermit than usual--I rely heavily on delivery, and will for the foreseeable future. If by some chance I need to go out, I'll use everything in my armentarium not to be one of those expendable old people some talk so offhandedly about.
Speaking of funerals, I’m still of the mindset that if any of my family dies, I won’t travel to the funeral. My parents are 86 and 80, still living and working on the family farm. I speak to them daily since I got covid cause mom wishes she could take care of me during this time. Such a sweetheart. We’ve already had the discussion (back in March) about not attending (or even having) a funeral in person in the event of any of our deaths.
happystuff
9-20-20, 3:52pm
Speaking of funerals, I’m still of the mindset that if any of my family dies, I won’t travel to the funeral. My parents are 86 and 80, still living and working on the family farm. I speak to them daily since I got covid cause mom wishes she could take care of me during this time. Such a sweetheart. We’ve already had the discussion (back in March) about not attending (or even having) a funeral in person in the event of any of our deaths.
I am of the same mind, Tammy, for myself.
I thought DW and I would not likely attend a funeral, either, but our track record shows we've got a shortlist of people for whom we'll go. It's not much wider than the immediate family of each spouse (and their spouses/families) and select friends (maybe eight for whom we definitely would want to show up). The funeral mass and visitation we attended required masks and encouraged social distancing. Those was observed far better in church than at the visitation/luncheon. We're a week and a half after those events though and, so far, so good.
We do what we can. COVID-19 has robbed us all of so much this year that you really want to draw a line somewhere. We're choosing our exposures.
That’s true each day for each person. It’s a very sad year.
ApatheticNoMore
9-21-20, 12:27am
That’s true each day for each person. It’s a very sad year.
yep, and the hardest hard line of avoiding exposure can't be maintained forever. But even then then I go to the dentist or the doctor if I need to (I have not had to go to a funeral, hopefully not). I go to get food and even add in a trip to the farmers market, it's been since before covid since I have,but before summer is entirely gone I did. To shops on an as needed basis and weigh the need carefully. Eat outside and I'm not fanatical on masks outside unless it's a crowd (inside I've worn masks in any place but mine and bfs - for 6 months now). To the beach (actually as we know pretty safe), use the restroom in a store. And one still aches constantly for the world that used to be, where going to a shop was nothing of nothing, hanging out somewhere other than home (how badly I need this) was nothing of nothing, going to a group event was nothing of nothing (I miss group events so badly), a bare face was nothing, you didn't fear all human contact to the point where noone but bf and doctor/dentist touches or even gets within 6 feet of you, leaving the house for anything didn't have to be oh so carefully weighed till you almost lose your mind.
And I weigh what I'm willing to compromise for (of things that are allowed let's assume) and I realize it's NOT low risk things I miss that much, it's not shopping, I could have plenty of that low risk stuff and still be starving emotionally like I was filling up on nothing. It's the high risk activities I miss most, group activities, hanging out indoors at a coffee shop etc. What really isn't safe, what I can't have. And the freedom of doing anything not being such a heavy choice. Oh and I'd like a professional massage while I'm at it :)
IshbelRobertson
9-21-20, 7:48am
I am late to the conversation!
I am in the group ‘extremely vulnerable’ and ‘shielding’ in UK parlance. Way back in Feb, I was undergoing new tests for another lung problem, other than the asthma I have had since I was about 40. The specialist suggested I severely limited contact with anyone outside my family.
Then in March when the UK started pandemic restrictions, I had already been in lockdown for a couple of weeks. Here we are, in September. The regs against socialising have got stricter again, and I prefer to still ‘shield’. Yesterday, my husbandand I went to have our flu jabs at a drive through clinic in the car park of a local school. First time I had been out of our cul de sac in all those months and first time in a car since Feb! The drive through seemed faster and more efficient than the usual service held at our GP surgery!
We got free food parcels, courtesy of local govt, for the first three weeks, until I managed to convince them that we didn’t need the parcels, aswe had access to online supermarket shopping. All supermarkets here gave priority delivery slots to people on the NHS list shows as extremely vulnerable/shielding
Thank god for the internet and my kindle!
Has anyone decided yet what they’re going to do about the holidays? I usually go to my goddaughter’s extended family. Her family is 6 kids plus parents. Then there are multiple aunts/uncles and family friends invited over. I’m probably not going to go.
Has anyone decided yet what they’re going to do about the holidays? I usually go to my goddaughter’s extended family. Her family is 6 kids plus parents. Then there are multiple aunts/uncles and family friends invited over. All hosted by grandparents. I’m probably not going to go.
iris lilies
9-21-20, 9:49am
We will do what we always do which is hardly anything.
We will do what we always do which is hardly anything.
That sums it up here, too.
Best I can hope for over the Holidays is two or three gatherings of friends and family, preferably five or less people who have been behaving responsibly. And that's being optimistic. The viral scene could be different by then.
Teacher Terry
9-21-20, 12:23pm
I won’t have my annual Xmas day party. We will get together with my kids.
frugal-one
9-21-20, 1:34pm
We will do what we always do which is hardly anything.
Same here.
frugal-one
9-21-20, 1:43pm
Really would like to go back to Texas to escape the winter. DH is vehemently opposed. Here we have to deal with cold and ice, isolation and I always feel sickly when it is cold (pneumonia-like). There we could go hiking, birding and exercise, see people (at a distance) and enjoy longer days and sunshine. The real problems are the distance, hotels and food to get there. We probably would have to buy a freezer there otherwise we would have to go to the store every few days and also get a water purifier. I dread the thought of the cold, dreary days ahead with nothing to look forward to. It is so depressing.
Really would like to go back to Texas to escape the winter. DH is vehemently opposed. Here we have to deal with cold and ice, isolation and I always feel sickly when it is cold (pneumonia-like). There we could go hiking, birding and exercise, see people (at a distance) and enjoy longer days and sunshine. The real problems are the distance, hotels and food to get there. We probably would have to buy a freezer there otherwise we would have to go to the store every few days and also get a water purifier. I dread the thought of the cold, dreary days ahead with nothing to look forward to. It is so depressing.
IF you could find a freezer. I've read they're still really in short supply.
We are visiting family in TX now before winter sets in and who knows what will be happening with all the crazy goings-on. Holidays will probably be a solo event this year.
My life is a daily risk assessment but I hope to see some of our kids at Christmas. We were able to spend last weekend with our son and his family, as both they and us have been fairly isolated all summer and they are home schooling now. After 3 weeks I was told I was not contagious but we waited over 2 months to be sure. We might see our other son in November, as he works from home and has plans to drive here for a few days - depending on whether I’m back to work and if so how risky would that be .... there’s no way to know ahead of time. Our daughter lives in Toronto and the border is closed closed right now.
Edited to add that the big challenge will be for people to not make plans ahead of time - we all need to be flexible and sensitive to current risk level. I’m afraid people will make plans and stick to them no matter what.
IF you could find a freezer. I've read they're still really in short supply.
Used probably is the best bet, particularly if you can find one more than 10-15 years old. Those were not subject to the energy use regulations that exist today so they were quite overbuilt and just keep chugging along even though their taste for electricity is kind of high. Craigslist/Facebook Marketplace/maybe NextDoor (not on it so I'm not sure). Prices, though, are surprisingly high because it's very difficult to buy brand new freezers.
Has anyone decided yet what they’re going to do about the holidays?
It'll be a Zoom Thanksgiving here, all the more likely now that DSoniL is gone and DMiL is in assisted living.
Christmas? No idea yet. DD and family are supposed to start "quaranteaming" for the baby's arrival (likely due mid-December if previous history is a guide). They may stick to it closely this time because, if they don't, no one (not even DSoniL) gets to stay with mom before or after the birth and the baby is taken to isolation, too, for two weeks.
The three (other) birthdays in December? Probably solo efforts, though we may combine mine and DD's (same week) if we're in their quaranteam for the baby and so we can take care of the other two kids. Maybe lots of packages left on doorsteps and sent with voluntary couriers...
ApatheticNoMore
9-21-20, 2:49pm
I suppose I can visit people outside (Dec is a little California cold though, Nov not so much usually, though it varies). But really do the same things as usual? Nope, not really.
My sister and her wife are coming to visit us for thanksgiving so they can see the new house. With the exception of this week (painters and movers inside our house with us not distancing or masking) we’ve been pretty careful, as has sister and SIL. We will risk having them in our house as if it was normal times.
Christmas we usually go to St. Louis to spend with SO’s family but are t planning to do that this year. SO went to visit his mom back in July with the extra expectation that we wouldn’t go in December.
We also usually host a party for friends at the fancy bar on the top floor of SO’s hotel. That obviously isnt going to happen this year either.
We'll do a low key Thanksgiving with the grandkids this year followed by our fairly new Christmas tradition of escaping to a beach. This year we'll again be in South Carolina for about 10 days.
frugal-one
9-21-20, 4:20pm
IF you could find a freezer. I've read they're still really in short supply.
Wow... good to know.... thanks.
I think we'll do our new tradition of Thanksgiving at DS40's in VT. Then we may try to make it to NJ for Christmas, although last year we didn't get there until January 9. As far as COVID goes, we're all nuclear family, and we're not worried about masks, etc. among our small group.
Wow... good to know.... thanks.
People on a frugal FB group I'm part of are always talking about freezers. When they come up for sale on FB Marketplace, they're apparently snatched up very quickly.
My parents finally got rid of their freezer from 1934 a few years ago. They got it secondhand and it just kept chugging, even after the bottom rusted out and they had to line it with cardboard.
iris lilies
9-21-20, 8:34pm
Freezer shortage? Meanwhile, the Iris lily household with our ginormous family of 2 sit here with 2 freezers, a giant assed double refrigerator, and 3 normal sized refrigerators. And, I will get yet another large refrigerator on Oct..1 when I close on a condo.
I’m going to have to physically restrain DH from putting that monster into his truck and hauling it to Hermann so that it can sit down In the basement with all the other cooling appliances he collects.
At 7 refrigeration and freezer units, we still don’t have his parents beat. When I was engaged to marry DH we visited his parents and at the time they had around 10 refrigeration/freezer units. They were 2 parents in the household and 1 son.
Little did I know at the time that was my future.
I thought people were spending quarantine baking bread. At least until they got interested in dismantling systemic racism. Why the need for freezers? It's not like they reduce the need for toilet paper... Or do they and I just haven't learned about it yet? It's 2020 so I suppose anything's possible including the headline "Buzzfeed's six tips for using your freezer to reduce your toilet paper need". Thankfully, though, I have NOT seen that headline yet.
SteveinMN
9-21-20, 11:02pm
Early on in the pandemic there were several threats of serious disruptions of the food supply, some more dire than others. There were, in fact, some disruptions, but nothing like some people thought. Along with purchasing mounds of toilet paper and disinfectant wipes, though, people apparently bought freezers.
I suppose keeping spare rolls of TP in the freezer would be one way to reduce TP use -- who wants to use cold paper down there? ;)
It always seemed risky to me to fill up freezers for this reason. Loss of power and your investment is gone. Canned and dried foods are better for the end of the world.
happystuff
9-22-20, 7:29am
It always seemed risky to me to fill up freezers for this reason. Loss of power and your investment is gone. Canned and dried foods are better for the end of the world.
I agree, Tammy. I've only had a big refrigerator with bottom freezer go out on me and that was enough of a lesson learned. The cost in food waste alone was just so sad.
frugal-one
9-22-20, 8:08am
It always seemed risky to me to fill up freezers for this reason. Loss of power and your investment is gone. Canned and dried foods are better for the end of the world.
I don’t think it is a good idea during a pandemic to just have a refrigerator freezer. I don’t want to have to keep going to the grocery store or cook small amounts daily. Canned and dried are also used but freshly frozen fruits and vegetables are a wonderful change. I have a small freezer filled to the max .... thankfuly. YLMV
frugal-one
9-22-20, 8:12am
Early on in the pandemic there were several threats of serious disruptions of the food supply, some more dire than others. There were, in fact, some disruptions, but nothing like some people thought. Along with purchasing mounds of toilet paper and disinfectant wipes, though, people apparently bought freezers.
I suppose keeping spare rolls of TP in the freezer would be one way to reduce TP use -- who wants to use cold paper down there? ;)
Sentry and Festival Foods here within the last few weeks have sent out emails and indicated on ads of possible shortages of fresh fruits and vegetables. I posted the info in the food section on Sept 6.
Teacher Terry
9-22-20, 10:22am
We have 2 refrigerators because a old one came with the house. We were out of town when the one in the kitchen died right after shopping and I lost 400 of food. We sold our chest freezer years ago.
Heard on the BBC this morning that the UK govt is now reversing their earlier policy for people to return to workplaces. Anyone who can work from home should resume working at home.
SteveinMN
9-22-20, 10:28am
Loss of power and your investment is gone. Canned and dried foods are better for the end of the world.
I figure if the end of the world comes along, we're screwed anyway. I don't know how to strip tree bark with my teeth or hunt down snakes for dinner and there's not one piece of ammo in the house unless we somehow McGyver a slingshot.
There aren't many canned/dried options for those of us who don't eat foods higher in carbohydrates. Pasta/noodles/rice, beans, grains, canned fruits, meals based on those (like canned pasta with meat sauce), etc., won't feed us healthfully through a (more likely here) supply chain disruption. So we take the risk. If the problem is the freezer failing, my mom has one in her basement that she has been "close to emptying" for four or five years now (why we bought our own freezer). I suppose we could buy a generator or use one our neighbors may have. Worst case, our freezer will fit in my car; we can take it to our kids' house or a friend's house and keep it plugged in. If a power outage exceeds that range, we have bigger problems than a freezer full of thawing food.
I thought people were spending quarantine baking bread. At least until they got interested in dismantling systemic racism. Why the need for freezers? It's not like they reduce the need for toilet paper... Or do they and I just haven't learned about it yet? It's 2020 so I suppose anything's possible including the headline "Buzzfeed's six tips for using your freezer to reduce your toilet paper need". Thankfully, though, I have NOT seen that headline yet.
Also with a freezer you won’t have to go to the store as much.
ApatheticNoMore
9-22-20, 10:45am
It always seemed risky to me to fill up freezers for this reason. Loss of power and your investment is gone.
Never mind the energy use, especially if you are using 100 year old freezers, now maybe I'm wrong and ancient freezers are in fact very efficient, but I really doubt it, refrigeration technology has improved a lot I suspect.
Jane v2.0
9-22-20, 10:50am
I figure if the end of the world comes along, we're screwed anyway. I don't know how to strip tree bark with my teeth or hunt down snakes for dinner and there's not one piece of ammo in the house unless we somehow McGyver a slingshot.
There aren't many canned/dried options for those of us who don't eat foods higher in carbohydrates. Pasta/noodles/rice, beans, grains, canned fruits, meals based on those (like canned pasta with meat sauce), etc., won't feed us healthfully through a (more likely here) supply chain disruption. So we take the risk. If the problem is the freezer failing, my mom has one in her basement that she has been "close to emptying" for four or five years now (why we bought our own freezer). I suppose we could buy a generator or use one our neighbors may have. Worst case, our freezer will fit in my car; we can take it to our kids' house or a friend's house and keep it plugged in. If a power outage exceeds that range, we have bigger problems than a freezer full of thawing food.
Low-carb people could consider one meal a day (OMAD) of a mixed diet during an ongoing crisis. You get many of the benefits--ketosis, autophagy, improved health markers--with the additional benefit of less money spent on groceries.
iris lilies
9-22-20, 12:04pm
It always seemed risky to me to fill up freezers for this reason. Loss of power and your investment is gone. Canned and dried foods are better for the end of the world.
It takes enormous amounts of time to can stuff and especially to dry it. I think drying foods is a huge waste of my time and energy.
Please understand I have garden produce rolling into my house in the quantity of a small CSA.edited to mean: CSA producer! we are the producers, not the consumers.
Just yesterday I cooked a big batch of beets. They tasted like crap. I threw them out into the compost. And I plan to tell DH when he gets home from his weeklong trek that there’s no point in harvesting the rest of those beets because they are crappy. I’m not gonna cook them, preserve them, let alone eat them.
back to the freezer and refrigeration units we own: not all of them in Herman are plugged in. Well, the giant one is not plugged in. One in the kitchen gets normal use. One freezer in the basement is about halfway packed.
Here in my own house is a chest freezer and I’ve been working since last fall diligently to get rid of a 20 year accumulation of fruits and a few veg. We use up the veg but I do not use gallons and gallons of fruit because DH seems unable to just eat the fruit, he have to prepare it all with sugar and flour and who needs those calories?
On some level I wouldn’t mind if the damn freezer failed and we had to throw everything out.
The extra refrigerator in our city house is chock-full of apples harvested last fall and newly harvested onions. The apples are mostly rotten. He will bring a New truckload of them from the Iowa farm today. Because we need more apples to sit and rot.
Iris, OMG. I’m sorry that is just so funny. Why does he grow it if it won’t be eaten?
iris lilies
9-22-20, 12:31pm
Iris, OMG. I’m sorry that is just so funny. Why does he grow it if it won’t be eaten?
That is the million dollar question. I have no answer and never will. It just is what it is.
He just got home from our Iowa farm. I will start a new thread soon about the oversized produce.
happystuff
9-22-20, 2:36pm
It takes enormous amounts of time to can stuff and especially to dry it. I think drying foods is a huge waste of my time and energy.
LOL - no surprise that we differ here. Yes, I agree that fresh is best, but I find that drying foods is so easy and takes way less time than I used to put into canning; it is my preferred method of food storage. I dehydrate pretty much anything and store in my canning jars. It takes up way less space than freezing and has a shelf life of several years when stored properly. Rehydrating is often literally as easy as making a cup of tea - boiling water into my tea cup and boiling water into the dried "whatever". It's definitely not for everyone, but I still find learning all the various aspect to be quite fun and fascinating. :)
rosarugosa
9-22-20, 2:47pm
Iris: My DH shares with your DH the idea that fruit is an ingredient, not actual food that can be consumed "as is."
iris lilies
9-22-20, 3:30pm
LOL - no surprise that we differ here. Yes, I agree that fresh is best, but I find that drying foods is so easy and takes way less time than I used to put into canning; it is my preferred method of food storage. I dehydrate pretty much anything and store in my canning jars. It takes up way less space than freezing and has a shelf life of several years when stored properly. Rehydrating is often literally as easy as making a cup of tea - boiling water into my tea cup and boiling water into the dried "whatever". It's definitely not for everyone, but I still find learning all the various aspect to be quite fun and fascinating. :)
This is only part of the produce dumped on my kitchen counter today. Just part. Missing are 12+ acorn squashes and at least 6 bags of apples (he wont tell me how many apples he picked from the family farm.)
how long would it take for you to dry all of this? We have a dehydrator, but haven’t used it in years. I think it’s dumb. It seems to run endlessly to dehydrate three little onions. I don’t see the point of that and I don’t like dehydrated onions anyway.
3444
I don’t know how you do it. It would force me to move into a house next door and make him keep his own house for all the stuff in his life. :D
Teacher Terry
9-22-20, 4:40pm
IL, your husband is much worse than mine. I would be hauling all that food to the homeless shelters. 4 years ago he canned a bunch of fruit and rarely eats it. It has been slowly by jumping into the garbage by itself:))
Heard on the BBC this morning that the UK govt is now reversing their earlier policy for people to return to workplaces. Anyone who can work from home should resume working at home.
Yeah, numbers there are trending in the wrong direction. My company just reopened the London office at 25% capacity two weeks ago. Today an email went out that it’s work from home again until further notice.
Honestly it’s probably just as well. The whole point of working in the office in London is to go to The Lloyd’s insurance trading floor every morning and work deals. That requires lots of non-distanced indoor communication in a big crowded room and also that the person you want to work a deal with also actually be there and not working from home that particular day.
iris lilies
9-22-20, 5:04pm
IL, your husband is much worse than mine. I would be hauling all that food to the homeless shelters. 4 years ago he canned a bunch of fruit and rarely eats it. It has been slowly by jumping into the garbage by itself:))
I’m starting a new thread over in the food section.
You would think I have exhausted this topic, but I haven’t, my life gets more complicated and I get more vegetables as I get older. This is just wrong!
happystuff
9-22-20, 5:23pm
This is only part of the produce dumped on my kitchen counter today. Just part. Missing are 12+ acorn squashes and at least 6 bags of apples (he wont tell me how many apples he picked from the family farm.)
how long would it take for you to dry all of this? We have a dehydrator, but haven’t used it in years. I think it’s dumb. It seems to run endlessly to dehydrate three little onions. I don’t see the point of that and I don’t like dehydrated onions anyway.
3444
LOL - doesn't matter how long it would take me as I really don't think you care and, as you have said, you think it's dumb and won't do it anyway. Nice veggies, though! Looks like your dh had a very successful garden!
SteveinMN
9-22-20, 10:23pm
Never mind the energy use, especially if you are using 100 year old freezers, now maybe I'm wrong and ancient freezers are in fact very efficient, but I really doubt it, refrigeration technology has improved a lot I suspect.
Well, what's changed is that compressors have been downsized and made more efficient through electronic control. New freezers use less electricity. However, they also won't last decades like the freezers of old. My suspicion is that buying two freezers that last five years each probably burns more carbon in total than buying an old guzzler freezer that hasn't had to be replaced in 20 years. But that's me.
NPR had a feature saying there is a shortage of new refrigerators, mostly due to Covid caused problems in the supply chain and also higher demand. That would be some bad karma to have the frig go out and then not be able to find a replacement. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/22/915240713/shortage-of-new-refrigerators-leaves-appliance-shoppers-out-in-the-cold
I heard on the local news an elementary school boy was sent home because he sneezed in class. He is being forced to take a covid test before he returns to school.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/09/22/arlington-student-sent-home-from-school-after-sneezing/
Allergies? Dust? Tickle in your throat? No, it must be covid!!!!
Meanwhile I heard on the radio in Europe students are not sent home to quarantine unless at least 3 children in the class are covid positive.
I heard on the local news an elementary school boy was sent home because he sneezed in class. He is being forced to take a covid test before he returns to school.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/09/22/arlington-student-sent-home-from-school-after-sneezing/
Allergies? Dust? Tickle in your throat? No, it must be covid!!!!
Meanwhile I heard on the radio in Europe students are not sent home to quarantine unless at least 3 children in the class are covid positive.
If we had a comprehensive testing program, we could deal with this pretty easily. There are tests that provide results in a half hour, I believe.
COVID is now the second leading cause of death in this country.
Colorado University has reported 1200 new positive cases among students, a new record outbreak for the state. Contact tracing seems to point at large parties. Classes are now all remote learning for the next two weeks.
Colorado University has reported 1200 new positive cases among students, a new record outbreak for the state. Contact tracing seems to point at large parties. Classes are now all remote learning for the next two weeks.
Following the same pattern all over the country. The idiots just have to party.
Strong biological drives at that age.
ApatheticNoMore
9-25-20, 11:36am
Strong biological drives at that age.
I don't remember strong biological drives at that age, I can probably count the number of times I have toward others on the fingers of one hand and maybe have fingers to spare, so maybe I'm graysexual. But wanting to be with people, have adventures etc., not be imprisoned in my room/house, for a disease that poses little risk to the young, Of course! When I was young, I was totally in college for the intellectual experience, it's what I wanted badly, not the career or the credential (completely stupid as that IS 100% what matters long term - but hey young and dumb), not the parties, but I did want it to be with others discussing what we had learned, not reading a library book alone, or why go to college.
Anyway this solitude and isolation is more than I can take now in my 40s and often seems NOT worth it and my risk isn't that of an 18 year old afterall and I know it so I err toward caution - I could die or get long covid, but it still often seems hardly worth it, and I'm pretty unhappy. And when you are young life seems so so short and like you have to do it all NOW. There is no long run - afterall you'll be OLD then, like you know over 25 or 30 or something, and what is the point of doing anything when you are old ...
Colorado University has reported 1200 new positive cases among students, a new record outbreak for the state. Contact tracing seems to point at large parties. Classes are now all remote learning for the next two weeks.
A friend's son goes there. He got a comprehensive list of what you can and cannot do. He's following it, because fines are involved, and being levied, apparently. As his grandmother noted "We should have done this from the beginning."
ANM, your experience is the polar opposite of mine in every conceivable way. Although I do value the process of education--I remember badly wanting to deck some ninny at my part-time school supporting job who opined that women only went to school to get their "MRS degree."
But I was just wistfully looking at tech writing/editing jobs and wishing (again) that I'd been born at least 20 years later.
A friend's son goes there. He got a comprehensive list of what you can and cannot do. He's following it, because fines are involved, and being levied, apparently. As his grandmother noted "We should have done this from the beginning."
ALL gatherings for 18-22 year olds have been banned by the county.
iris lilies
9-26-20, 11:20am
Our city playgrounds are not officially open and the Health Department head is very careful wih his wording, but in essence the yellow tape has come down, signs will go up urging precautionary measures, and the little rugrats will be able to crawl all over the equipment with impunity.
Not that they haven’t already been doing that. I saw yellow tape pulled down early in the Covid game at the two city parks I frequent.
Some animals are more equal than otherS, and I can point out the mommies whose little dears are playing on the swing set who also complain when dogs in the Park run loose.
That is a different level of threat, agreed, and dogs should not run loose in the Park. But God forbid we deny small children their tiny heartS’ desires. Yes there is a back issue with our playground equipment that chaps my hide, but suffice to say it is ALL FOR THE CHILDREN.
I think I preferred this neighborhood when it was mostly gay men and childless couples. I’m just cranky today.
Jane v2.0
9-26-20, 12:25pm
...
I think I preferred this neighborhood when it was mostly gay men and childless couples. I’m just cranky today.
Don't leave out single adults, and I'm in.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/09/22/africa-has-defied-covid-19-nightmare-scenarios-we-shouldnt-be-surprised/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
If only we had the public health capabilities of many African nations our death toll would be much lower than it is.
Liberia: population 5 million, 1335 cases, 82 deaths.
Rwanda: population 12 million, 26 deaths.
iris lilies
9-26-20, 1:03pm
Don't leave out single adults, and I'm in.
Oh of course! Many of our friends here have been single women over the years.
gimmethesimplelife
9-29-20, 12:47pm
Strong biological drives at that age.I am so so so grateful to no longer be young! Rob
Our city playgrounds are not officially open and the Health Department head is very careful wih his wording, but in essence the yellow tape has come down, signs will go up urging precautionary measures, and the little rugrats will be able to crawl all over the equipment with impunity.
Not that they haven’t already been doing that. I saw yellow tape pulled down early in the Covid game at the two city parks I frequent.
Some animals are more equal than otherS, and I can point out the mommies whose little dears are playing on the swing set who also complain when dogs in the Park run loose.
That is a different level of threat, agreed, and dogs should not run loose in the Park. But God forbid we deny small children their tiny heartS’ desires. Yes there is a back issue with our playground equipment that chaps my hide, but suffice to say it is ALL FOR THE CHILDREN.
I think I preferred this neighborhood when it was mostly gay men and childless couples. I’m just cranky today.
Wow, that has taken a long time to reopen the playgrounds, if that is what you are saying has opened. I drove by the Catholic church today and all the kids were out playing on the playground. They have been on the playground at the beaches all summer. Those are the only playgrounds I see, but they have been full up.
Glad my grandchildren can be back playing at the park.
We have a nice dog park with separate areas for large and small. Is there a dog park you can use?
Is there a biological urge for getting down and out drunk?
Is there a biological urge for getting down and out drunk?
I believe that's called "foreplay." :devil:
ToomuchStuff
9-30-20, 3:50am
Is there a biological urge for getting down and out drunk?
In some, I believe so (addictive behaviors tend to have both psychological and physiological mechanisms.)
Drinking resolves anxiety for the short term. I can see that being the main reason humans have enjoyed alcohol for millennia.
In some, I believe so (addictive behaviors tend to have both psychological and physiological mechanisms.)
Yes.. it's very complex and I shun all simplistic answers, having many, many members of my family who have not achieved their human potential because of alcohol abuse and addiction. There are no easy answers.
(Not sure what the precipitating post was for Tradd's query.)
Regarding the virus, it seems like we dont hear much about China cases anymore. Sure is odd if they are back to somewhat normal and Americans are struggling. But then again, it is hard to know what to believe anymore.
Yes.. it's very complex and I shun all simplistic answers, having many, many members of my family who have not achieved their human potential because of alcohol abuse and addiction. There are no easy answers.
(Not sure what the precipitating post was for Tradd's query.)
We were talking about college students going out and getting drunk, not social distancing, and thus spreading the plague.
I have no patience for drunks. My father was done.
happystuff
10-1-20, 10:21am
I believe that's called "foreplay." :devil:
ROFLOL. Thanks - nice chuckle.
It will be interesting to see how things play out with Hope Hicks being a covid carrier who was in close contact with trump in the moments before she found out she was positive. Considering how germaphobic trump is he must be freaking out. And I'm sure he won't be able to stay home for the next two weeks unless he gets sick enough that he simply has no alternative, which is a realistic possibility if Hope infected him, considering his age and terrible health habits. We may end up seeing a surprise ending to the "reality presidency" tv show.
ApatheticNoMore
10-2-20, 1:28am
Do you suppose he's faking it to get sympathy? With his campaign crashing and the most horrible "debate" anyone has ever had to witness. He would, you know he would if he could. It's also a convenient excuse to have to step down.
Btw I've found great deals on tin foil hats on Amazon, packs of 100 selling for $20 ...
We may end up seeing a surprise ending to the "reality presidency" tv show.
in which case reality bites back.
Finally my state is reporting infection rates by community and tailoring reopening plans accordingly - red, orange and yellow. But the statewide mandate for masks AKA placebos remains in effect.
Finally my state is reporting infection rates by community and tailoring reopening plans accordingly - red, orange and yellow. But the statewide mandate for masks AKA placebos remains in effect.
Masks work. But you know that You just don’t like them.
Do you suppose he's faking it to get sympathy?
I’ve had a few friends ask that on Facebook. Short answer, no, I don’t think so. For several reasons. First, since he’s incapable of sympathy or empathy I can’t imagine him trying to get either from other people. Second, he hates looking weak. Third, if neither he nor Melania show symptoms he will just be called a liar, yet again, because the chances of both of them getting it but being asymptomatic are vanishingly small.
Given that no one in the west wing has been practicing good covid safety we are likely watching how a super spreader situation unfolds in real time. I expect that the names of the infected from the White House will be littering the news for the next several days.
ApatheticNoMore
10-2-20, 12:11pm
I’ve had a few friends ask that on Facebook. Short answer, no, I don’t think so. For several reasons. First, since he’s incapable of sympathy or empathy I can’t imagine him trying to get either from other people.
To win reelection or failing that to escape the law. He's pretty good at faking empathy like in 2016 for those laid off by trade agreements and the towns left behind by them (worthy of course of genuine empathy, but a naracissist could also pull it off, they often can).
But the statewide mandate for masks AKA placebos remains in effect.
Calling masks "placebos" is ignorant. At best...
To win reelection or failing that to escape the law. He's pretty good at faking empathy like in 2016 for those laid off by trade agreements and the towns left behind by them (worthy of course of genuine empathy, but a naracissist could also pull it off, they often can).
Except that a sizable majority think he’s handled the pandemic poorly. The fact that he got infected is just more proof of that. The only people I can imagine feeling pity for him getting infected are the people who were already planning to vote for him. Suburban women, the people he needs to persuade to come back to the Republican Party are not likely to feel much pity that he’s gotten infected with a disease that they themselves worry about their families getting.
I have no pity for him. Whatever ... he’s an ass and I really don’t care. This goes in direct opposition to my usual “unconditional positive regard” ethos. But it’s how I feel.
The worst thing coming out of this would be if he infected Biden at the debate. Which in my current cynical viewpoint would support the idea that only the good people suffer.
Both Bidens just had negative tests, thank goodness.
How many of his credulous followers scorned basic precautions--notably masks--and were infected, suffered long-term sequelae, or died?
Seems Trump's overweening arrogance finally caught up with him.
Has crazy Doctor Atlas been tested?
I’m glad it’s going to probably be at least a month before I have to go up to WI for my cavern/cave diving class. The positive rate up there has gone through the roof.
All of these early negative tests are not that reassuring. False negatives are common early in the course of covid. The only correct response is that anyone exposed needs to quarantine for 2 weeks. Even if they have a negative test,
Teacher Terry
10-2-20, 4:41pm
The sad thing is that he lies so much who knows if it’s true or just a ploy to avoid debates, try to postpone the election or claim he is so tough that it was nothing. If he has it I don’t care given what he said about others including veterans, etc.
All of these early negative tests are not that reassuring. False negatives are common early in the course of covid. The only correct response is that anyone exposed needs to quarantine for 2 weeks. Even if they have a negative test,
I'm hoping both sides at the debate were sequestered away from each other; I doubt was much contact, if any.
Well, if he's faking it he's going all out with the lie because it's on the news that he's going to Walter Reed.
Well, he's on his way to Walter Reed, so if this is a plan to cancel debates or garner sympathy, that would take the collusion of the hospital.
I'm hoping both sides at the debate were sequestered away from each other; I doubt was much contact, if any.
Apparently they were, but even so he spent 90 minutes on the stage with him not that far away. And trump's whole family was sitting in the front row, unmasked except Milania. It's quite possible/likely that she and donald aren't the only ones in the family to have it. I assume the whole clan was at the super spreader event at the Rose Garden.
"Superspreader event".
People keep saying that about various gatherings. Do any of you have pointers to data on which of the various events have turned out to be problematic?
"Superspreader event".
People keep saying that about various gatherings. Do any of you have pointers to data on which of the various events have turned out to be problematic?
I don't have any data, but the only events that I had heard that could be thus classified were the wedding in Millinocket, Maine, and that funeral early on in New York was it, the town that they quarantined first?
But admittedly I don't follow this closely. But those events made many sick.
frugal-one
10-2-20, 8:15pm
"Superspreader event".
People keep saying that about various gatherings. Do any of you have pointers to data on which of the various events have turned out to be problematic?
Fox Valley of WI... Green Bay now is a hot spot for the virus. This is in the north boonies. trump and his big rally recently surely did not help that area.
Teacher Terry
10-2-20, 8:52pm
Our governor said groups of 250 people can gather while our rates are increasing. Not happy!
"Superspreader event".
People keep saying that about various gatherings. Do any of you have pointers to data on which of the various events have turned out to be problematic?
According to science writer Laurie Garrett, some infected people shed more virus than others, thus becoming a "super-spreader." If they then attend a crowded-- often indoor--event unmasked, they have the potential to infect many more. Think "typhoid Mary." The Rose Garden announcement of Amy Coney-Barrett's nomination was, in her estimation a super-spreader event. She opined that if you looked at an overhead shot of the crowd and plotted the attendees who were infected, you might find the super-spreader in the middle of that group.
Apparently for republicans in the politician class the definition of quarantine is "go to previously scheduled fundraising events". Not only trump was this irresponsible, but Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin risked people's lives for a few bucks. And people wonder why the rest of us think they are such awful human beings. Maybe we do so because they really ARE such awful human beings.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gop-sen-ron-johnson-went-to-oktoberfest-party-after-testing-positive-for-covid-19/ar-BB19FZuX
Jane v2.0
10-4-20, 12:41pm
It's telling they'll risk their own lives to perpetuate a lie--that this deadly virus is no more dangerous than the flu, and that wearing masks and social distancing is for suckers.
I guess they never learned that you’re not supposed to believe your own bs.
Teacher Terry
10-4-20, 10:51pm
So I turned on the news at 7 and Trump is in a airtight car with secret service who are well driving around the hospital waving at people. So he is risking all of their health for no reason. Just when you think he couldn’t go any lower. Ugh!
Jane v2.0
10-5-20, 10:12am
Apparently there is no one who can say no to our tin-pot dictator. His judgment is abysmal. Of course, he's on at least three medications that might affect his already distorted thinking.
frugal-one
10-5-20, 10:28am
DH said he hopes trump does not die but just loses his hair.... hehe! That would kill him.... trump is more worried about his photo op than the health of the people supposed to protect him.
Talk about a moron putting everyone in harms way.
Teacher Terry
10-5-20, 10:29am
Frugal that’s funny. I want him sick enough to take this virus seriously.
Frugal that’s funny. I want him sick enough to take this virus seriously.
I don’t think that’s possible. Although if he did it would probably help his image among the few true swing voters out there.
The ironic thing is that he's a notorious germophobe--and he's aware of the deadly potential of this virus. There's an obvious disconnect here.
Kayleigh McEnany tested positive this morning; announced it to the press not wearing a mask. So considerate of her.
gimmethesimplelife
10-5-20, 6:05pm
The ironic thing is that he's a notorious germophobe--and he's aware of the deadly potential of this virus. There's an obvious disconnect here.
Kayleigh McEnany tested positive this morning; announced it to the press not wearing a mask. So considerate of her.Covid positive and not wearing a mask? My opinion of America has sunk even lower. Rob
My opinion of America has sunk even lower. RobYou know if anyone had asked I'd say your opinion of American hit rock bottom before your mom stopped cutting the crust off your PB&J sandwiches. Who'd a thunk it?
Covid positive and not wearing a mask? My opinion of America has sunk even lower. Rob
Conflating "Kayleigh McEnany" with "America" seems a bit of a mistake.
Conflating "Kayleigh McEnany" with "America" seems a bit of a mistake.
How about "president not wearing a mask". Does he represent America?
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/10/05/donald-trump-leaves-walter-reed-return-white-house-covid-19-ebof-vpx.cnn Despite the white house being ablaze with infections the republicans just can't ditch their pathetic attempt to pretend that this isn't a big deal.
If I were Kamala Harris I'd insist that no one other than her, pence, the moderator, and the facility staff be allowed inside for the debate tomorrow. It's quite clear from all that has happened over the past week that the trump campaign has no morals or honor and is quite comfortable risking other people's lives with a potentially fatal disease. They're almost as awful as Jimmy Carter was when he offered up his opinion on foreign policy issues a few times after he left office. At least that's what I've been told. SMDH.
ToomuchStuff
10-6-20, 10:49am
My opinion of America has sunk even lower. Rob
https://youtu.be/QuKBsJoA7jk
I heard on NPR this morning that teachers who are doing all remote instruction have a higher rate of covid infection than those who have students in their classrooms. This supports my contention that students should be in school. Young people may get the virus but rarely get sick or infect others. Facts not paranoia should govern our public policy.
Here is an article on this. Full capacity 21 cases per 100,000 but remote 24 cases per 100,000:
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/915738935/new-dashboard-tracks-coronavirus-cases-in-schools-across-47-states
Truly, your knowledge of epidemiology is staggering.
<sarcasm> Of course, that has nothing to do with the fact that schools that are using remote learning, are often doing it because corona cases in that area are high.
Teacher Terry
10-16-20, 8:37pm
Tell that to a mom that lost her healthy football player son within 24 hours after feeling sick.
I saw on BBC America a European public health official expressing grave concern about the second wave there because the population is much older than in other parts of the world.
So I Googled and here are average ages by continent:
Europe 42
North America 35
Oceania 33
Asia 31
South America 31
Africa 18
An earlier idea was that certain parts of the world didn't get many cases/deaths because warm weather kills the virus, but age may actually be the relevant factor.
Yppej, I’m curious. What, to you, is an acceptable number of deaths from this? We’ve had just over 8m infections and 218,000 deaths. Doing a bit of math, if we give up and aim towards herd immunity we will have almost 9 million deaths in the US, assuming the current death rate continues. Depending on how quickly we try to get to herd immunity that number will likely be higher because people like Chris Christie who need an ICU to survive this won’t have that option because the ICUs will all be full and lots of medical professionals will be out sick.
Personally I’m appalled at the unneededly high US death rate that has already occurred and simply can’t fathom how anyone could be willing to see almost 10 million Americans die from this disease. But apparently some people don’t value life as highly as I do.
Teacher Terry
10-17-20, 10:04am
My DIL’s relatives in Poland have lost 2 people in their 60’s. They were healthy so definitely lives cut short.
So I Googled and here are average ages by continent:
I might suggest, as might any basic textbook on statistics or epidemiology, that "average age" isn't a useful characterization of the population for this context....
I think they even cover this in high-school-level math/science classes.
You might want to look at the whole shape of the distribution, for instance.
"Herd immunity" is a cruel joke anyway, considering it's becoming apparent that the reprieve is only temporary--people are already starting to be reinfected, and dying, in some cases. People who embrace this approach are disturbingly callous about all the death and disability that's bound to result. Clearly, they don't think they're at risk, and to hell with everyone else.
Ask any epidemiologist, and they'll tell you this is a crackpot idea. Note that Trump's current advisor on the subject is a radiologist, not a public health or infectious disease expert.
I think people are putting too much faith in the vaccine as the silver bullet cure and then everything will be fine. I've seen numbers something like a third to a half of the population will refuse to get the vaccine. And then to be approved the vaccine has to only be 50% effective. In the less promising outcome, it could be that only a fourth of the population will have protection. Herd immunity may be a figment of someone's imagination, but there is a possibility that a vaccine will not protect enough people to totally eliminate the disease or even remove it as a significant health threat. Hopefully things will work out better with more people getting vaccinated and better vaccine protection, but there's no guarantee.
ApatheticNoMore
10-17-20, 2:35pm
The problem is much of the western world doesn't know how, or perhaps it would be much more accurate to say isn't capable, of dealing with the virus. Europe is a mess now again too. As for western countries New Zealand, yea one of the few interesting exceptions. Who knows why they were capable of choosing competence when so many wealthy countries weren't. I'm a huge fan of Jacinda Ardern but it might be more than just leadership that made them so motivated to do all the right things. Anyway we're not able to get leaders like that elected, the best we can do is not elect the absolute worst again.
As for schools there is probably more exposure at schools, but kids are being sent to daycare and exposed as is now. Because the having kids at home forever really is untenable for many (young kids anyway, teenagers it depends on the teenager I'd figure). So it's not like in person schools are really being compared to no exposure. It's schools compared to whatever other measures people with kids who generally also have to keep earning a living, are resorting to to keep body and soul together these days.
It's too bad the U.S. didn't take this disease as seriously as several Asian countries, New Zealand, and others. At this rate, we'll be dealing with it for years.
A tale of two counties.
My mom grew up in a small town in western Kansas. Current population 1000. I still have two cousins and an aunt and uncle living there. They currently have 14 active cases and have had 3 deaths.
San Francisco county, on the other hand, currently has about 400 active cases and has had 131 deaths. Yet we have nearly 1000x the population of my mom’s hometown. By taking this seriously early on And with competent science based leadership we’re in a much better place. If we were like mom’s hometown we’d currently have nearly 13,000 active cases and almost 3000 deaths.
It's too bad the U.S. didn't take this disease as seriously as several Asian countries, New Zealand, and others. At this rate, we'll be dealing with it for years.
I think regardless of the approach taken everyone will be dealing with covid for years. If you're an island like New Zealand are you going to permanently shut yourself off from the rest of the world? Japan did that for centuries until Admiral Perry came so it's possible, but I think unlikely.
If you don't isolate your small corner of the world, given the limitations of vaccines that Rogar pointed out you will still be dealing with covid. If you shut down large sectors of your economy as soon as you reopen the risk comes back. Unless people are going to live on self-reliant homesteads where they grow all their own food yes we will be dealing with this for years. It"s not like wearing masks will make it go away.
I am reading Hidden Valley Road now about a family that had six schizophrenic children. We accept now that schizophrenia is hereditary, but at the time medical "experts" and scientists blamed poor mothering. We have a lot to still learn about NOVEL coronavirus, and the people who think they have all the answers don't.
One thing I am not hearing about is research into conditions that could help nudge the virus into mutating into a less lethal form. If it can live in the host without killing the host that gives it an evolutionary advantage. I think this is an avenue worth exploring.
I started that book, Yppej, and it's fascinating, and yeah, I can still remember in the 70's in college learning about schizophrenia as being caused by bad interactions with mothers, with mothers having a "style" of communication--kind of a Catch 22 style, it was, that supposedly resulted in schizophrenia.
We do learn over time, and it's a good thing to keep an open mind in all matters of illness and health.
Much of Asia is doing well because they're used to wearing masks during times of epidemic.
ApatheticNoMore
10-17-20, 4:22pm
If we live with it for years it will be with a depressed economy, because noone needs to go to an indoor sit down restaurant, a bar (though some 20 somethings will do it, and well alcoholics of all ages, but that's it), live entertainment, movie theaters, cruises, airlines most of the time etc.. I don't need any of this and would be foolish to do it. I don't even need to try on clothes and even that spending is bound to be down. And frankly I can go forever without dental cleanings too. Oh I drove my 80 something mom to dental *surgery* she needed, but there is a difference between needed surgery and stuff like cleanings and xrays one can easily go without. Old people can't stay home entirely either, and neither should they, it would be completely fricken ridiculous - I don't mean from all this unnecessary fluff that I've just listed, but actual life must go on.
I suppose it is de-growth, this new covid austerity where spending money is hardly worth the risk, not a particularly well thought out de-growth, but noone is thinking anything out at all.
Much of Asia is doing well because they're used to wearing masks during times of epidemic.
But they still have cases. It's not like masks eliminate covid. Even if masks could prevent all spread, and we all got our nutrients from IVs instead of opening our mouths to eat, it would be hard to keep masks on everyone. Most places exempt those under age 2, some places up to age 10. My mother visited a friend of hers outdoors at a nursing home the other day. The woman is in her second childhood at times, and clawing to get the mask off her face. Other times she is more lucid/compliant. Being masked is no way to live. It's awful.
happystuff
10-17-20, 5:24pm
Being masked is no way to live. It's awful.
For all your whining about masks, I have yet to see where you have taken a stand on your beliefs and stopped wearing one. Go ahead - stop wearing a mask and be happier than you apparently are now. Take the risk AND take the responsibility for anyone you may infect. Wearing a mask CAN help keep you living, while catching covid and being sick and/or dying is what is truly awful. But, please, live what you are espousing and stop wearing your mask and I hope that makes you happy for the time you have left in life, because your anti-mask posts truly reflect that you are totally unhappy with your life right now where masking is concerned. I truly hope you can come to terms with this soon, as the virus is NOT going away and you seem truly miserable with regards to masking.
But they still have cases. It's not like masks eliminate covid. Even if masks could prevent all spread, and we all got our nutrients from IVs instead of opening our mouths to eat, it would be hard to keep masks on everyone. Most places exempt those under age 2, some places up to age 10. My mother visited a friend of hers outdoors at a nursing home the other day. The woman is in her second childhood at times, and clawing to get the mask off her face. Other times she is more lucid/compliant. Being masked is no way to live. It's awful.
Dying of a disease whose spread is significantly limited by wearing a damn mask really isn’t much of a way to live either.
mschrisgo2
10-18-20, 2:28am
OMG, the math/statistics/analysis being discussed here are part of the standard SEVENTH grade curriculum that I’m facilitating with home-schooled students... unbelievable.
The most basic equation, as pointed out by some researchers, is masks = complacency about social distancing. So maybe first grade math.
Here is an article on this:
https://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/local-news/uvm-study-mask-wearers-may-be-complacent-more-public-education-around-mandates-needed/
"People who wear masks may be more likely to contract Covid-19...."
And this article debunks the idea that it was mask wearing that controlled the spread of covid in Asia:
https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/coronavirus-covid19-cdc-face-masks-debate.html
The author also makes the excellent point that people who can stay home should, have things delivered. Yet in these forums multip!e individuals have said you can't expect high risk groups like the elderly to stay home because they will get bored. I guess they think "dying of boredom" is more fatal than dying of covid. More fuzzy math.
An example of the current flawed mindset is my mother who is 79 with various medical conditions. She heard a friend of hers in her eighties was recently moved to a nursing home. She called a half dozen people determined to find out which facility and eventually succeeded. She went to visit her and said, "We were wearing masks". They were also outdoors, but had to go indoors to get to the outdoor patio. I would be worried I would kill my friend. I would not go but would talk to her on the phone.
catherine
10-18-20, 7:56am
I think the articles show that masks aren't useless, but they are part of a multi-pronged approach that includes distancing and hygiene. We should be doing all three. Ignoring any one of these measures will increase our vulnerability.
The most basic equation, as pointed out by some researchers, is masks = complacency about social distancing. So maybe first grade math.
Here is an article on this:
https://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/local-news/uvm-study-mask-wearers-may-be-complacent-more-public-education-around-mandates-needed/
"People who wear masks may be more likely to contract Covid-19...."
And this article debunks the idea that it was mask wearing that controlled the spread of covid in Asia:
https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/coronavirus-covid19-cdc-face-masks-debate.html
The author also makes the excellent point that people who can stay home should, have things delivered. Yet in these forums multip!e individuals have said you can't expect high risk groups like the elderly to stay home because they will get bored. I guess they think "dying of boredom" is more fatal than dying of covid. More fuzzy math.
An example of the current flawed mindset is my mother who is 79 with various medical conditions. She heard a friend of hers in her eighties was recently moved to a nursing home. She called a half dozen people determined to find out which facility and eventually succeeded. She went to visit her and said, "We were wearing masks". They were also outdoors, but had to go indoors to get to the outdoor patio. I would be worried I would kill my friend. I would not go but would talk to her on the phone.
I don't doubt that wearing a mask can offer a false sense of security and there has to be additional measures. I think that is the basic point of the articles, but I'd point out that the Slate article is dated April 2020. We've learned a lot since then, enough to say the article is partially obsolete. but point taken that some of the successes in Asia were also due to other factors as well as masks. The other link seems to be counter to your argument. You took a short statement out of the context of the article. I can't see in any of your posts that seem to obsess with not wearing a mask hold any water. Last I have to say on the subject. From the first link.
“Messaging that people need to wear a mask is essential, but insufficient,” she said. “It should go hand in hand with education that masks don’t give you a free pass to see as many people as you want. You still need to strictly limit your contacts.”
I'm more than happy to have goods delivered, but if I were to go out I'd be masked and distant. I'm not even close to being "bored to death" yet, though I miss my favorite discount grocer. I'll be glad when this is all over (if ever), but I'm good for the foreseeable future.
catherine
10-19-20, 10:40am
This came through in my email via MedPage.. I didn't know about Great Barrington v John Snow proposals for dealing with the balance of infection risk v economic impact risk. It's an interesting opinion piece. Apparently there are two petitions supporting each approach and the op ed author is arguing that this is not an issue that should be put to a vote.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/89177?xid=nl_covidupdate_2020-10-19&eun=g1445854d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DailyUpdate_101920&utm_term=NL_Gen_Int_Daily_News_Update
iris lilies
10-19-20, 11:42am
Jeppy I wonder what you have to say about the following anecdotal observation:
In my immediate neighborhood I see many good Doobies out exercising around our park. Many of them wear masks while walking their dogs, jogging, walking around the park which is a common 1 mile track.
Also while out and about and doing my 1 mile track, I see many discarded face masks on the ground. Yesterday I counted four. Why is it that the good Doobies are unable to use a trash receptacle. Notice, no question mark at the end of that last sentence because yes, it’s a statement that I think they’re little pigs.
Under normal circumstances, in non-Covid times, I would bend over and pick up those four masks and carry them to the trash bin. But not now of course, I’m not gonna trust touching the discarded masks of the goody two shoes who are wearing them while outside. What pigs they are.
Teacher Terry
10-19-20, 12:12pm
IL, it’s like people that don’t pick up their dog poop. How can people be so entitled? Ugh!
ApatheticNoMore
10-19-20, 12:19pm
The author also makes the excellent point that people who can stay home should, have things delivered. Yet in these forums multip!e individuals have said you can't expect high risk groups like the elderly to stay home because they will get bored. I guess they think "dying of boredom" is more fatal than dying of covid. More fuzzy math.
that's your interpretation, that it's about boredom, although all i can recall is you whining about not being able to buy clothing and shoes during lockdown.
It's about basic human needs. That old people have needs to socialize too. And sometimes if the dentist thinks they may have a tumor to get dental surgery, mom got the surgery but it was cultured and wasn't a tumor. I wanted to lock my mom up early on but months later I'm glad I didn't. California is doing better than most states right now, we did not lift all measures of course, some stuff is still closed. Mom mostly just goes to the bank and the store, it's not some exciting life. She thanks me and bf profusely for visiting (outdoors). If she dies of it, well living under a rock permanently (this is not a whine about complying with short term health measures or bars and restaurants being closed - that is small sacrifices, but rather older people having to sacrifice EVERYTHING) can't be done.
Noone can name any country on earth that protected older people while having widespread spread (certainly not Sweden), it doesn't even work, not on a social level, sure a given individual might be able to hide. But as policy - IT DOESN'T WORK. So I suspect, it's just a form of ageism, doesn't work, but you can hate the elderly for being human.
Stuff could be delivered. Yea that only makes sense if the risk of the person doing one's shopping are less than one's own risk. If one is 80 they probably are, it's certainly understandable, but otherwise even if one has a young person delivering, young people can have long lists of preexisting conditions and social risk factors too or live with older people who do as well.
I read that 40% of those in the USA have some sort of designation that places them in the high risk category. It’s not just the old folks.
frugal-one
10-19-20, 3:23pm
Well, COVID is getting very close to home. The village where I live has 2 utility workers and the village clerk testing positive. The village office is 3 blocks from my home. I know others who have had COVID and one who was on a ventilator. Glad my freezer is full!
And some unfortunates have had fatal or long-lasting consequences with no apparent risk factors at all. It's like some grotesque game of Russian roulette.
mschrisgo2
10-19-20, 5:19pm
FWIW, I really doubt that wearing masks causes complacency. A mask is just uncomfortable and annoying enough to make the wearer very aware if they have it on or not.
Of course, I’m only out and about a couple of times a week now, once for grocery shopping for myself and 2 neighbors, and once to run another neighbor to her dr appointments, and I run to the hardware store for a myriad of people while I wait for her. Most of the people who are also out likely fall into these same categories and I’m a boomer and there are a whole lot of us. Anyway, what I observe is people being careful to wear a mask in the vicinity of other people. Again, it may well be that generation of respect thing, but that’s what I see. Even at the Star$$$ drive thru, as they approach the window, the mask goes on.
Incidentally, here in California, most of the “old people” who have died of C19 were in congregate care facilities. Since they’ve gotten those under control, the most new cases, including deaths, are in the 20-40 yr old range. But even those are significantly down here now. It’s pretty simple really, wear a mask, save a life- might be your own!
Like mschrisgo says I don’t think I’m more complacent wearing a mask. If anything it’s a constant reminder of what’s going on.
Jeppy I wonder what you have to say about the following anecdotal observation:
In my immediate neighborhood I see many good Doobies out exercising around our park. Many of them wear masks while walking their dogs, jogging, walking around the park which is a common 1 mile track.
Also while out and about and doing my 1 mile track, I see many discarded face masks on the ground. Yesterday I counted four. Why is it that the good Doobies are unable to use a trash receptacle. Notice, no question mark at the end of that last sentence because yes, it’s a statement that I think they’re little pigs.
Under normal circumstances, in non-Covid times, I would bend over and pick up those four masks and carry them to the trash bin. But not now of course, I’m not gonna trust touching the discarded masks of the goody two shoes who are wearing them while outside. What pigs they are.
A coworker sent out an annoyed email because someone left a used mask on his desk. I also see them in parking lots. My state has a mask mandate so our discarders may not be health conscious "good doobies" but people wearing masks under fear of being fined. I would not want to touch these masks either. They join dog poop and heroin needles in a nasty trio.
I read that 40% of those in the USA have some sort of designation that places them in the high risk category. It’s not just the old folks.
36.5% of American adults are obese, so it doesn't take a lot of other conditions to get to 40%. And 7 months into the pandemic and not a peep from our public health officials about losing weight to fight the virus's lethality. You can lose a significant amount of weight in 7 months. But the food industry benefits from the current system, and selling treatments benefits the pharmaceutical industry.
This came through in my email via MedPage.. I didn't know about Great Barrington v John Snow proposals for dealing with the balance of infection risk v economic impact risk. It's an interesting opinion piece. Apparently there are two petitions supporting each approach and the op ed author is arguing that this is not an issue that should be put to a vote.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/89177?xid=nl_covidupdate_2020-10-19&eun=g1445854d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DailyUpdate_101920&utm_term=NL_Gen_Int_Daily_News_Update
An interesting read. Thank you.
ApatheticNoMore
10-19-20, 6:16pm
36.5% of American adults are obese, so it doesn't take a lot of other conditions to get to 40%. And 7 months into the pandemic and not a peep from our public health officials about losing weight to fight the virus's lethality. You can lose a significant amount of weight in 7 months.
what would be the point? Though some people manage to lose weight through this or that diet or exercise or whatever of course, there is no successful intervention that works on a large scale. Diets don't work long term on average, weight loss programs don't work long term on average.
It's just an excuse to hate on overweight people. When we aren't hating on people who have committed the great crime (through not fault of their own) of having to many birthdays!
I wish there were treatments, other than Remdesevir which is a profit center but doesn't increase survival, and a decades old steroid that does increase survival but seems not likely to be a profit center, there aren't. Oh there are treatments given to Trump even if he's both old and fat and noone's definition of healthy, and refuses masks, and holds covid spreading rallies, but we can't get those. An ounce of cure is worth a pound of prevention but only if you are the President.
what would be the point? Though some people manage to lose weight through this or that diet or exercise or whatever of course, there is no successful intervention that works on a large scale. Diets don't work long term on average, weight loss programs don't work long term on average.
It's just an excuse to hate on overweight people. When we aren't hating on people who have committed the great crime (through not fault of their own) of having to many birthdays!
You took the words right out of my mind.
If losing weight were even close to being easy, there would be few fat people.
You took the words right out of my mind.
If losing weight were even close to being easy, there would be few fat people.
Maybe we shouldn't encourage people to stop smoking either. After all quitting is hard. No one should have to do anything hard. Instead when they make bad decisions the government, other ratepayers in their insurance plan, or their employer who provides health insurance can pick up the tab for their lung cancer, emphysema, heart disease, or even covid. Vaping dramatically increases covid risk.
True. 95% of those lose weight gain it back within about a year, and often with a few additional pounds.
You took the words right out of my mind.
If losing weight were even close to being easy, there would be few fat people.
Maybe we should shut down drug rehab programs. Do you know how many people relapse? Most of them relapse at some point. Lots of them relapse again and again. Why should people try to do something hard like quit? That doesn't fit in with our entitlement society.
It’s actually shown that a focus on weight loss causes people to gain weight. It’s counterproductive.
It’s actually shown that a focus on weight loss causes people to gain weight. It’s counterproductive.
This defeatist mindset is why obesity gets worse every year.
catherine
10-19-20, 6:55pm
I personally think the ladder is against the wrong wall. Read Food Fix by Dr. Mark Hyman.
"Dr. Hyman deftly describes the web of destruction caused by our modern food system -- and how to reverse the tide and save our health and planet. His most important book to date."
―Dariush Mozaffarian, MD, DrPH, Friedman School of Nutrition Science & Policy, Tufts University
It’s actually shown that a focus on weight loss causes people to gain weight. It’s counterproductive.
I think what happens is that people lose weight by dieting rather than changing their lifestyle and lifelong eating habits. It may be hard to diet, but it's harder to give up some of the foods we like forever.
The Russian agitprop bots are out in force today I see.
I’ve read whole books about it - but don’t have the energy to expound further. There is science behind what I’ve said.
People can and do lose significant amounts of weight and keep it off, sometimes assisted by bariatric surgery.
From today's news:
42% of US covid deaths are in nursing homes
Young people are at such a low risk that a British pharmaceutical company is seeking volunteers under the age of 30 to be deliberately infected with the virus so the efficacy of vaccines can be tested on them (but hey, what do the scientists making vaccines know? Some anecdote about a young person dying of covid is more important say the chattering classes)
Again with the old people don’t matter argument. Geez.
catherine
10-20-20, 8:50pm
I, too, feel that the "it's just old people" argument is a shame. These "dispensable" old people have children and grandchildren who can't even say goodbye to them in person. One of my dear friends died of COVID, but he would have died soon enough anyway so I guess it's OK.
"If they would rather die, let them do it and reduce the surplus population." Charles Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
Jeppy, I'm surprised at you, because you don't seem to me to be a callous person.
I do not devalue the lives of older people. But I think rather than lock everyone down the government should give people the ability to assess their own risks and act accordingly. These risks vary greatly, with age being a major factor in the difference. Fortunately most older people are retired and can stay home. Goods should be brought to them as need be. I am not in a high risk group and am working in an essential industry. I am risking my health, but the risk is low, and I am happy to do my part. I think older individuals who cannot afford to retire should be eligible for enhanced unemployment for the duration of the pandemic.
That theory loses its merit when one considers large number of inter-generational households, and large number of grandparents that help with childcare for the grandchildren.
There are no good answers to this pandemic. Various countries have tried various approaches and it seems that the virus is spreading everywhere, in waves.
In theory that’s fine. But how many old people either live in nursing or other group senior living facilities staffed by younger people who will be out contracting covid or are dependent on younger people to come help
them with various activities and potentially infect them? A lot. Aiming for herd immunity ignores that and ignores the fact that there will be a lot of middle aged Chris Christie’s that will need several days in limited ICU beds to survive covid. And since we’re nowhere close to herd immunity getting there will be a long ugly slog with a lot of dead people along the way. Especially since a not insignificant chunk of the population still doesn’t take this seriously and won’t do their part by wearing masks and taking other precautions.
Personally I’d prefer a more humane approach. We’re the richest damn country that ever existed. The only reason people are hurting financially is because of the selfishness of Mitch McConnell who thinks this is all a laughing matter and the complicit senate republicans.
In Ann Arbor, U of M students are essentially on lockdown for two weeks, effective immediately. The county realized at least 60% of the cases were from U of M students.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2020/10/20/washtenaw-county-stay-home-order-university-michigan-coronavirus/5993741002/
Another problem with herd immunity is that we don’t know how long immunity lasts. Other coronaviruses have immunity that only lasts 1-2 years. So we may never get there without regular vaccinations. Like the flu shot.
Teacher Terry
10-21-20, 1:28am
Some guy locally has had it twice.
ToomuchStuff
10-21-20, 2:20am
Some guy locally has had it twice.
Same strain?
I've read reports about a couple cases where someone had caught a different/mutated strain.
Have one friend who has been in the hospital on a respirator (CEO of a bank), one of our suppliers tested positive, then two relatives of a coworker (family, an hour away) tested positive and one of them is in the hospital and not expected to make it. It is getting a lot closer.
ApatheticNoMore
10-21-20, 2:23am
I don't think anyone could point to a single country where just protecting old people has worked, but I am all ears. Because it's seeming like what part of does not work don't you understand? In theory this and that, got a working model, a single example? Because it seems like everywhere younger people get sick, older people do too. I'll go with a theory without a single working example only if all other options are worse (so yes in a certain doom scenario, running with untested theory may make sense), otherwise where are the examples?
I also find it profoundly inhuman and immoral to not follow a policy of reducing spread so things are safer for everyone, but instead to make old people prisoners indefinitely. Everyone sacrificing indoor restaurants and bars actually is preferable to old people being imprisoned in their houses entirely so we can have restaurants and bars. Of course if we look at the actual victims which aren't just the old, some might find it even more immoral, but it's old people AND it's poor people and minorities. Duh.
Only so many countries are doing great at this. Many are stumbling along. Making things even worse by allowing uncontrolled spread won't improve anything.
In retrospect it's OBVIOUS to me that the U.S. would do badly at Covid, and I'm wondering how clueless were those who predicted otherwise? And how patriarchal? I mean ok Trump doesn't help anything at all, but a fact about the U.S. compared to other developed countries is vastly more women in the U.S. die in childbirth than in other developed countries (California is an exception). A country that can not save the lives of women in their prime like it's developed peers do, is maybe not going to be stellar at dealing with a pandemic. That more than some high tech we might have should maybe have been the symbol how competent we are at healthcare and how we would cope.
That theory loses its merit when one considers large number of inter-generational households, and large number of grandparents that help with childcare for the grandchildren.
That is why people should assess their risks and act accordingly. Live with elderly people? Do your schooling remotely, etc.
I am staying away from my parents, only visiting outdoors 10+ feet apart. Do I like not having hugged them since early March? No, of course not, but family gatherings are now acknowledged as a major transmission route, other ways being cut off through lockdowns. I didn't need this week's news to tell me that though. It's common sense which is why I have been doing it all along. Living in a cold climate Thanksgiving and Christmas with them will be out this year too.
If only the slogan ‘die for the Dow’ had proven more popular we’d be over this pandemic by now. Sure, lots of old people and minorities would be dead, but we could paint it as a heroic, patriotic thing. Maybe build a monument to their lost lives on Wall Street where all their loved ones could go to remember them and think ‘grandpa sacrificed everything so that I could go out to my favorite bar.’
The problems with attempting to get herd immunity, spelled out in a succinct article.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/19/opinion/coronavirus-herd-immunity.html
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