View Full Version : Conavirus......
rosarugosa
10-21-20, 7:57am
From today's news:
42% of US covid deaths are in nursing homes
Young people are at such a low risk that a British pharmaceutical company is seeking volunteers under the age of 30 to be deliberately infected with the virus so the efficacy of vaccines can be tested on them (but hey, what do the scientists making vaccines know? Some anecdote about a young person dying of covid is more important say the chattering classes)
My awesome math skills helped me calculate the corollary that 58% of US Covid deaths are not in nursing homes.
4.5% of older adults live in nursing homes and 2% in assisted living facilities. Source: NIH
Yet these facilities account for 42% of covid deaths.
From this I glean that:
Mortality rates correlate highly with age. The cases of younger people dying that some folks trot out to stir up paranoia are blue moons.
Congregate living or otherwise being around other people is deadly for older folks during this pandemic. They may not like to stay home for months at a time but for their own safety they should.
There are people who want to keep smoking. They will find cases of smokers who lived into their 90's. They will find cases of nonsmokers who died of lung cancer. This does not change the facts, that smoking causes lung cancer.
Similarly, age is a risk factor for covid. It's a fact and our response to the virus should take age into effect. It's not ageism anymore than banning travel from hotspot countries is xenophobia, though certain left wing loonies argue otherwise.
FYI
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-monday-edition-1.5767947/swedish-virologist-says-her-country-s-covid-19-strategy-has-failed-but-nobody-will-admit-it-1.5767967
Eight months after the start of the global pandemic, Sweden is changing its COVID-19 strategy — but virologist Dr. Lena Einhorn says it's far too little, too late.
Last spring, as other countries went into lockdown, Swedish citizens were mostly living as usual. The government issued advice and guidance in place of rules and restrictions. School and work went ahead. Many businesses stayed open.
But as of Monday, Sweden's per capita death rate from COVID-19 was the 15th highest in the world, or 13th if you exclude the tiny countries of Andorra and San Marino, according to data from Time magazine and Johns Hopkins University.
Now Sweden is shifting its policy. According to the Telegraph, starting Monday, the government has empowered regional health authorities — in consultation with the federal public health agency — to instruct citizens to stay away from crowded spaces like shopping malls, museum, gyms, and concerts, and avoid taking public transport or visiting the elderly. However, there will be no legal or financial consequences for non-compliance.
Einhorn, a virologist, author and filmmaker in Sweden, is one dozens of medical experts who have been critical of the country's COVID-19 response from the start. Here is part of her conversation with As It Happens host Carol Off.
Is the Swedish government finally willing to admit that its approach to tackling COVID-19 has failed?
I haven't seen any such signs, no.
Do you think they'll just continue as they are?
There have been incremental changes in the recommendations. There has never been, and I doubt there ever will be, any kind of admission of having made mistakes.
If you were to describe Sweden's approach to tackling the coronavirus, what words would you use?
Stubborn is probably the best word I can come up with.
When they started, their initial assumptions were fair. They assumed that this would be like SARS; it would never sort of be a major problem in Sweden or outside of Southeast Asia. They were convinced it's only spread from symptomatic people, so like SARS, you could isolate the symptomatic people and stop the spread that way.
That was fair, you know, sometime in January. It was not fair in April or in May. So they stuck to that. And one could say that when the spread really … hit Europe and Sweden, they did the opposite of our Scandinavian and Nordic neighbours who went into lockdown, and we did not.
There was an idea that we heard from coming from Sweden in the spring, and I guess it continued, that Sweden would attempt something called "herd immunity," that if enough people were to contract the virus, that eventually there would be a general immunity enough within the population that it would have a better effect than locking things down and keeping people from getting it. Is that what happened?
It has been assumed that they were going for herd immunity, but they've been speaking through two sides of their mouths. On the one hand, they've been denying it. On the others, on the other hand, they said it would be a bonus.
They said that come fall, and the second wave, we will be much better protected than our Scandinavian neighbours who had 10 times less deaths than we did in relation to population. But it became very clear once broad testing of antibodies was being done that there was nothing close to herd immunity.
And so, of course, they realize that they can't go for herd immunity. It's going to kill too many people. I mean, it's already killed almost 6,000 people in a population of 10 million. So they are no longer going for herd immunity, which doesn't mean that they're prepared to say, "we were wrong and we're going to change our recommendations."
And what do you think of Anders Tegnel?
I have no opinions about him personally, but I think he has not handled this well and he keeps on not handling this well.
Just as an example, Sweden is [one of the only countries], together with Somalia, Yemen, Eritrea, Syria, Greenland and some Pacific islands, who have still no recommendations for face masks whatsoever. So, you know, he hates face masks. He says they don't help. He keeps saying there's no support for them.
In the spring, that could have been a fair assumption. But by now, there's the studies are overwhelmingly showing the benefit of face masks, especially when it's used in the whole population, because it protects against someone who is sick.
So if everybody wears it, face masks are extremely efficient. But if only 50 per cent wear it, it's not at all sufficient. But he will not even say that they're good. I mean, you have to understand, in the Swedish hospitals, the doctors and nurses do not wear face masks.
Well, it seems that Donald Trump and the people around him would agree with Anders Tegnel. But the rest of the world, at least in countries where they have policies, they are not doing that. So somebody is right and somebody is wrong.
The interesting thing is that in Sweden, we have a social democratic government dominated by the Social Democrats, so … it's more of a left-wing policy. Whereas in the rest of the world, it's very much a right-wing laissez faire policy to have herd immunity, or to try to have herd immunity, or to not wear face masks. Freedom, you know?
There was a freedom of information [request, and] a bunch of emails that have been published by journalists in your country that show that Mr. Tegnel said that at one point that when it was suggested that 10 per cent of those who would get the disease would be the elderly and maybe they would die, 10 per cent might be "worth it," he apparently said. How much of the decisions are being driven by this idea that, well, maybe we have to keep Sweden moving, keeping the businesses open, and that's part of the motivation?
They will never admit that the economy is an aspect.[U] By the way, Sweden's economy has not fared any better than its Nordic neighbours. Rather, it's more at the bottom than at the top among our neighbours. So it hasn't benefited from it, and it has certainly not benefited from the herd immunity.
Today we saw the announcement that citizens in Sweden should avoid places like shopping malls, museums, gyms, concerts, and avoid public transportation or visiting the elderly. So is there a shift perhaps in perception?
There are policies. You know, it's not a completely laissez faire. I mean, people are advised to stay to work from home if they can. People are advised to not fill up the public transportation, the busses and the subways. There is still a maximum amount of people gathering of 50.
It's not a complete "let's live as normal" — but it's all recommendations and advice.
I would say that incrementally, Sweden has has gotten closer to other countries. I mean, we do a lot of testing now. We do, you know, about as much as Canada per capita. So it's not like in the spring, where nobody was tested outside of the hospital.
But it still is always too little.
ApatheticNoMore
10-21-20, 12:06pm
But as of Monday, Sweden's per capita death rate from COVID-19 was the 15th highest in the world, or 13th if you exclude the tiny countries of Andorra and San Marino, according to data from Time magazine and Johns Hopkins University.
I believe the U.S. is higher though.
It's what has never made sense in the "be like Sweden" thing, we already have more deaths per capita in the U.S., possibly more cases, does anyone think we would have less deaths and cases of covid if we had even less restrictions? And we're on a 3rd wave. If Sweden somehow does better there, it's not because of some kind of generic "herd immunity". So credit whatever you want if you think Sweden did better, but Sweden's lax policy isn't it.
Teacher Terry
10-21-20, 12:31pm
I don’t know if the local guy had different strains. So we are in placerville, California for 3 days which is a rural area staying on a farm in a separate guest house. The owner said all their guests wear masks and the locals don’t and this is Trump country. Don’t know how she knew we weren’t Trump people and felt safe enough to share. My husband told her we are a divided house but he does cross party lines and votes for the person. He told her it’s inconceivable that anyone would vote for him now that we know who he is. She told us that 2?restaurants had their licenses taken away by the state but the sheriff wouldn’t enforce it so they kept open. Some restaurants have signs saying no masks she said. We are eating at outside ones and won’t eat anywhere with those signs. Because we have a kitchen we will only eat out once a day.
frugal-one
10-21-20, 4:15pm
I do not devalue the lives of older people. But I think rather than lock everyone down the government should give people the ability to assess their own risks and act accordingly. These risks vary greatly, with age being a major factor in the difference. Fortunately most older people are retired and can stay home. Goods should be brought to them as need be. I am not in a high risk group and am working in an essential industry. I am risking my health, but the risk is low, and I am happy to do my part. I think older individuals who cannot afford to retire should be eligible for enhanced unemployment for the duration of the pandemic.
Actually I wish you were so you would quit being so cavalier.
Actually I wish you were so you would quit being so cavalier.That's a little harsh. There's a significant number of people who believe that it is their responsibility to do the right thing, and a seemingly higher number of people who believe that the government must force their responsibilities onto others. You can often tell them apart by their political affiliation, but not always. I don't think believing one way or the other makes you cavalier.
frugal-one
10-21-20, 5:48pm
That's a little harsh. There's a significant number of people who believe that it is their responsibility to do the right thing, and a seemingly higher number of people who believe that the government must force their responsibilities onto others. You can often tell them apart by their political affiliation, but not always. I don't think believing one way or the other makes you cavalier.
Read highlighted above. What you stated is not what I was referring to.
Covid is so boring I figured I would try for some online companionship, but I didn't want to put my picture online. However, to respond to messages it is required. So I found the biggest mask I have and took my picture with it on, problem solved.
I got a message from some guy that masks are disgusting and trap bacteria under them and why would I put a diaper on my face. I didn't think that was a good way to start things out so I blocked him.
This morning I saw on BBC News that the second wave in Europe has as many or more cases but fewer deaths. To me this makes sense as the most vulnerable died in the first wave. If we don't get a cure or vaccine and suffer from continuous waves for years, barring a mutation to a more dangerous form of the virus I think its lethality will go lower and lower, and projections of deaths based on the first wave are exaggerated.
Chicken lady
10-22-20, 6:44am
And with enough spread, we might be able to nearly eliminate diabetes from the population!
iris lilies
10-22-20, 7:31am
And with enough spread, we might be able to nearly eliminate diabetes from the population!
Haha! Black humor necessary these days.
Teacher Terry
10-22-20, 11:32am
Good one CL! All the old people dying will also save SS!
And with enough spread, we might be able to nearly eliminate diabetes from the population!
And old age will be a thing of the past!
JaneV2.0
10-22-20, 12:38pm
And old age will be a thing of the past!
And bigots will welcome a reduction in the POC population.
And kiss fat people goodbye.
And bigots will welcome a reduction in the POC population.
And liberals will rejoice in the reduction of Republicans, because only dead Democrats vote. :cool:
frugal-one
10-22-20, 1:22pm
And liberals will rejoice in the reduction of Republicans, because only dead Democrats vote. :cool:
what... moronic
Sadly, we are seeing a not insignificant number of people who develop diabetes after covid. Didn’t have it prior.
Chicken lady
10-22-20, 6:08pm
Well crap, Tammy ruined my snark. That sucks.
Sorry. 😞
It’s good to have you back. Hang in there.
dado potato
10-25-20, 7:06pm
Bitter pill to swallow... My county has had its first COVID-19 fatality. In my state, the death count is 1,778.
All the numbers seem to say we are still getting sicker.
Personally, I believe our only hope lies in splendid isolation. In the fullness of time there likely will be a vaccine. But until then, we will not be congregating for any cause, however worthy!
JaneV2.0
10-26-20, 12:37pm
Bitter pill to swallow... My county has had its first COVID-19 fatality. In my state, the death count is 1,778.
All the numbers seem to say we are still getting sicker.
Personally, I believe our only hope lies in splendid isolation. In the fullness of time there likely will be a vaccine. But until then, we will not be congregating for any cause, however worthy!
King County has recorded 789 deaths, for a death rate of 3% among infected individuals. Most of us are taking it seriously here, even as the federal government has lost interest. I'm laying in supplies--and Kindle books--and am fully prepared for the long haul.
catherine
10-26-20, 12:58pm
I was shocked to get invited to do a set of in-person interviews in a market research facility in 2-3 weeks. 10 nurses, 5 doctors. It would be in Boston or NJ. I usually have a very difficult time saying no to projects, but a) I like being sequestered in Vermont during this, and b) DH has some compromising health conditions. Yes, I could get tested when I got back, but why even go through the hassle??
I'm going to say no, and it's it's going to kill me to turn down money.
Suburban Cook County (the county where Chicago is located) - where I live - has now banned indoor dining at restaurants beginning Wednesday. I had a friend who wanted to meet for dinner, but thankfully, her schedule kept getting in the way.
catherine
10-26-20, 1:34pm
I noticed through an online NJ community forum that the Regal Cinemas that was about 5 minutes from our NJ house has closed. I never even thought about movie theatres! Who would go to the movies these days? Never mind how vulnerable they were before COVID because of the streaming culture these days. I'd be really sad to have that industry go down. It's always kind of fun to go out for a movie experience.
Our local movie theatre tried opening with proper spacing but had to close due to lack of response. Yesterday, they offered a special movie that you had to register to attend. The first viewing of 40 people was committed with second time scheduled for taking registrations. I was tempted but opted not to go. I wonder how many actually showed up.
I was shocked to get invited to do a set of in-person interviews in a market research facility in 2-3 weeks. 10 nurses, 5 doctors. It would be in Boston or NJ. I usually have a very difficult time saying no to projects, but a) I like being sequestered in Vermont during this, and b) DH has some compromising health conditions. Yes, I could get tested when I got back, but why even go through the hassle??
I'm going to say no, and it's it's going to kill me to turn down money.
Can you offer to do it virtually? I can't imagine why it has to be in person.
catherine
10-26-20, 2:13pm
Can you offer to do it virtually? I can't imagine why it has to be in person.
I can offer, but I'm sure they specifically want in person and eventually if they can't get anyone to travel, they'll probably have to be satisfied with telephone interviews or video interviews. I just flew it by my husband and he is not comfortable with me doing it at all, so that seals the deal for me.
I can offer, but I'm sure they specifically want in person and eventually if they can't get anyone to travel, they'll probably have to be satisfied with telephone interviews or video interviews. I just flew it by my husband and he is not comfortable with me doing it at all, so that seals the deal for me.
I talked to my friend in Westfield today and she said the high school there is closed now, and so are the schools in Boston. They had been open, now closed. So I think you are wise not to go.
frugal-one
10-26-20, 4:16pm
Bitter pill to swallow... My county has had its first COVID-19 fatality. In my state, the death count is 1,778.
All the numbers seem to say we are still getting sicker.
Personally, I believe our only hope lies in splendid isolation. In the fullness of time there likely will be a vaccine. But until then, we will not be congregating for any cause, however worthy!
Not how I would describe the situation. Obviously, you enjoy isolation based on your location. The winter is going to be hell IMO. I'm already feeling blue and have been able to social distance outside with neighbors.
rosarugosa
10-26-20, 6:24pm
The movie theater complex near us has closed too. There is talk about it perhaps becoming an Amazon facility. I haven't been to the movies since Titanic was released, so it won't be a loss to me personally, but it's still too bad.
We’re fortunate to live somewhere that has decent weather all winter with the exception of occasional rain so we can continue doing outside things. For instance this weekend we went to sonoma and did a few wine tastings. Wineries tend to have lots of outdoor space so they can easily do very distanced tastings. And the hotel we stayed at is a bunch of separate cottages so that was also reasonably safe. As is the well spaced outdoor dining we did. If we go again this winter we’ll likely get takeout dinners since it will be a bit cool to sit outside after the sun goes down. If we still lived in NJ I’d be dreading this winter because the isolation would be tough, even for a semi introvert like me.
We’re fortunate to live somewhere that has decent weather all winter with the exception of occasional rain so we can continue doing outside things. For instance this weekend we went to sonoma and did a few wine tastings. Wineries tend to have lots of outdoor space so they can easily do very distanced tastings. And the hotel we stayed at is a bunch of separate cottages so that was also reasonably safe. As is the well spaced outdoor dining we did. If we go again this winter we’ll likely get takeout dinners since it will be a bit cool to sit outside after the sun goes down. If we still lived in NJ I’d be dreading this winter because the isolation would be tough, even for a semi introvert like me.
The authorities here are still pushing outdoor dining, but really, that has passed here. It was 36 degrees today with snow and sleet in the Chicago area. People aren't going to be eating outside in this weather and it's going to get worse.
I guess I should probably schedule another hair cut before stuff gets shut down again.
A lot of restaurants here, if they have the space, seem to be building semi permanent outdoor dining spaces with some sort of covering and patio heaters everywhere. It doesn’t really seem sustainable. Propane tanks are expensive. And if it’s windy those heaters just aren’t enough. On Friday I based my food choice for dinner on what would hold heat long enough for me to eat it all. I really wanted the cod but didn’t want to have something that would get cold before I finished. And that was with it still being 60 degrees and only mildly breezy. Any colder and instead of Moroccan chicken I’d have gone with a bowl of soup. That’s just not a great dining experience. On the other hand we’ve found a great sushi place near our new house. I suppose we could keep doing outside dining there all winter as long as we wear warm enough clothes! 😃
catherine
10-26-20, 9:34pm
Yeah, I expect that restaurants down south will fare much better than the northern restaurants that have to close down their al fresco dining soon if they haven't already. My son was laid off again because his restaurant is going to take-out only for the winter. They told him to touch base with them in the spring. I'm wondering if they'll survive the winter, frankly.
ApatheticNoMore
10-26-20, 9:59pm
Not how I would describe the situation. Obviously, you enjoy isolation based on your location. The winter is going to be hell IMO. I'm already feeling blue and have been able to social distance outside with neighbors.
I don't complain about "winter" here (though I am using the heater some last couple days). But I'm as weary of coronavirus as this.
One might have to risk some exposure to earn money but that's just money and what one must do. There's nothing fun to do and nothing is fun anymore anyway ( https://www.vox.com/the-goods/21523704/fun-quarantine-home ). There is nothing meaningful to do as one feels utterly severed from any larger society anyway, I've never cared less about the rest of society in my life, almost it can go to heck for all I care, because I'm just so disconnected (yea, but I'll vote). I think about reading books about hermits and whatever it is they found meaning in if they did, because hermits yea that's the aspirational goal at this point, what is the meaning in hermitage? Any good hermit book recommendations? Keeping in mind Thoreau got my social contact than I do. It never feels safe, everything is a decision of take the risk or not, except you know sitting at home which is almost all one does, as well it's safe. Oh goes and walks in this local place or wherever I guess, same old same old.
ANM, it might be too religious for you, but St Seraphim of Sarov (Russian Orthodox saint) was a hermit for many years. He was said to have a special connection to animals.
Even though SO and I are Reasonably safe and relatively happy and have been able to see friends in a semi-safe way since we have a nice backyard I get the stress people are feeling. My blood pressure issues a few months ago were undoubtedly covid related. I keep in the back of my mind that this too shall pass. One way or another (hopefully not herd immunity) this will end. Hopefully with a soon vaccine since the alternative is truly depressing.
iris lilies
10-27-20, 9:16am
I just heard that another major plant society conference is cancelled for 2021. Good! I am glad they are making these calls early. Now, I just have to get the powers that be to Focus on a cancellation date for the regional iris conference next May. It should not take place.
On Sunday we attended an indoor 4 hour daffodil exchange event. It was held in a huge, beautiful meeting hall. About 20 people spread out in an area designed for 350 people. Interesting aside, the hall was designed by our Hermann architect who is also our neighbor.
A lot of Great Lakes shipwreck events are going to be online. I can’t tell you how happy I am. This is stuff I’d never get to see in person due to distance driving in the fall. Gales of November, the big one in Duluth in November, a one I’ve always wanted to attend. A lot of the presentations for this kind of stuff are power point presentations with video and music, so I don’t think much is lost by going online.
happystuff
10-27-20, 10:23am
The last two movies I saw in a theater were The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel and The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel 2 - roflol - so I really won't miss going to the movies. I don't know for sure, but I believe the one close to us has also closed.
dado potato
10-27-20, 2:51pm
A lot of Great Lakes shipwreck events are going to be online. I can’t tell you how happy I am. This is stuff I’d never get to see in person due to distance driving in the fall. Gales of November, the big one in Duluth in November, a one I’ve always wanted to attend. A lot of the presentations for this kind of stuff are power point presentations with video and music, so I don’t think much is lost by going online.
I see that on Youtube the Detroit Historical Society convened a presentation called Gales of November. It is 1 hour and 10 minutes long. produced by WROK cable TV. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaDdSUaMl_Y
I see that on Youtube the Detroit Historical Society convened a presentation called Gales of November. It is 1 hour and 10 minutes long. produced by WROK cable TV. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaDdSUaMl_Y
Thank you! The Detroit Historical Society/Dossin Great Lakes Museum have some great stuff on YT.
It turns out that while covid is more contagious than the regular flu it is not catchy in the way the Spanish flu was, and the absence of restrictions leads to no worse infection rates than the presence of them:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53741851
A lot of Great Lakes shipwreck events are going to be online. I can’t tell you how happy I am. This is stuff I’d never get to see in person due to distance driving in the fall. Gales of November, the big one in Duluth in November, a one I’ve always wanted to attend. A lot of the presentations for this kind of stuff are power point presentations with video and music, so I don’t think much is lost by going online.
I belong to a group that has had monthly presentations with fairly well known speakers at out natural history museum auditorium. They now do a Zoom presentation at the normal meeting time where even the speaker is at home. It's actually nice in a way since no driving is involved. Something is missing by not being more personal even though there is a way to ask questions. The presentations are archived and then you can stream them anytime. I could see it making in person presentations obsolete due to convenience.
As a side point, I recently read The Death and Life of the Great Lakes by Dan Egan. It was a NYT best seller a year or two ago. I thought the history of the Great Lakes and their manipulation was simply amazing.
I belong to a group that has had monthly presentations with fairly well known speakers at out natural history museum auditorium. They now do a Zoom presentation at the normal meeting time where even the speaker is at home. It's actually nice in a way since no driving is involved. Something is missing by not being more personal even though there is a way to ask questions. The presentations are archived and then you can stream them anytime. I could see it making in person presentations obsolete due to convenience.
As a side point, I recently read The Death and Life of the Great Lakes by Dan Egan. It was a NYT best seller a year or two ago. I thought the history of the Great Lakes and their manipulation was simply amazing.
What does everyone make of the rise in Lake Michigan this year? So many places we usually swim, there was no beach left--the water is so high.
What does everyone make of the rise in Lake Michigan this year? So many places we usually swim, there was no beach left--the water is so high.
It was high last year, too. The Great Lakes go through cycles.
I’m a member of the local underwater archaeology society. I’d have to drive to the south side of Chicsgo for meetings before. Get home very late. I LOVE having Zoom meetings. We have a half hour social time before the online meetings, like we would when meeting in person. More people are able to participate online, too, such as members who have moved out of state.
dado potato
10-29-20, 12:07pm
It turns out that while covid is more contagious than the regular flu it is not catchy in the way the Spanish flu was, and the absence of restrictions leads to no worse infection rates than the presence of them:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53741851
Yppej: the linked BBC story does not seem to say that about the Spanish flu. When you talk about the absence/presence of restrictions, are you referring to restaurant seating and open shops in Sweden?
Around the United States there is a wide range in the incidence of COVID per 100,000 population in each state. Vermont is lowest at 339. The states with the 3 highest incidence are Mississippi 3,918; South Dakota 4,604; North Dakota 5,237
I don't know if an international comparison adds to the discussion, but I will mention Iceland (lots of restrictions, people in quarantine, contact tracing). I looked at a 14-day moving average of the incidence of COVID-19 per 100,000 Iceland population. There was a peak at about 260 3/30/2020. It dropped to near zero from 5/9/2020 to 7/24/2020. It spiked again around 290 and is currently 211. I was eyeballing graphed data, but it should be possible to download the exact numbers. http://www.covid.is/data
It turns out that while covid is more contagious than the regular flu it is not catchy in the way the Spanish flu was, and the absence of restrictions leads to no worse infection rates than the presence of them:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53741851
"In Sweden, there have been more than 5,500 deaths in a country of 10 million, which is one of the highest death rates relative to population size in Europe, and by far the worst among the Nordic nations."
JaneV2.0
10-29-20, 12:20pm
Taiwan is an example of doing it right. They implemented strict measures in January, and have had no new cases--except for people trying to enter the country and quarantined--for some time. The last new case among citizens was in April. They have had seven deaths. Our response--or lack thereof-- has been a complete disaster.
Also, there was a comparison on the news last night of cases in areas of the Midwest with mask mandates, and those without. As I recall, the infection rate was about 2 to 1 in the freedom-lovin' :help: mask-floutin' areas. Masks work.
Third, COVID19 isn't the flu.
Fourth: It's pretty easy to cherry-pick headlines from media articles to shore up one's belief system.
ApatheticNoMore
10-29-20, 12:51pm
Well no it's not as contagious as some things, I don't think any expert ever thought it would be, popular fears perhaps (my fears sometimes), and it's even less contagious with all the measures being taken. And that's why the death toll isn't even higher, most people have still never been infected. It's not so much that it's not so deadly as anticipated, it can be deadly (though not Spanish flu level), it's more that it doesn't seem to spread quite so readily as one might fear with the measures being taken.
Teacher Terry
10-29-20, 1:00pm
Many countries have done better than us such as Australia, New Zealand and Vietnam.
Sweden's surging again:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-cases/sweden-sets-another-daily-covid-19-case-record-as-hospitals-feel-strain-idUSKBN27E29W
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - Sweden, which has shunned lockdowns throughout the pandemic, registered 2,820 new coronavirus cases on Oct. 28, the highest since the pandemic began and the third record number in a matter of days, Health Agency statistics showed on Thursday.
Well no it's not as contagious as some things,.
In Western Washington state, as of a couple days ago, the reproduction rate, r, was 1.34...
So, not-good.
Dado you are correct that the article did not discuss the Spanish flu, but I thought it was common knowledge that it was killing people of all ages left and right back in the day.
A customer came into the office today and as he works at a healthcare facility one of my coworkers was asking him about his experience with covid. He said he had it and his only symptom was a headache for 3 days. He said there were numerous deaths at the facility, one person in his 70's and the rest in their 80's or older. He said all the fatalities were not only old but had other medical conditions. He said the vast majority were morbidly obese. They had numerous survivors as well including a woman in her 90's. He was praising Sweden's approach of protecting the vulnerable and letting younger people go about their lives.
catherine
10-29-20, 6:10pm
A lot of Great Lakes shipwreck events are going to be online. I can’t tell you how happy I am.
Yes, I have "attended" a few really cool events online--a couple of historical "walking tours" and an author event. I agree that it does make learning more accessible.
We don't seem to be protecting our "vulnerable" very well, do we?
ApatheticNoMore
10-30-20, 2:18am
We don't seem to be protecting our "vulnerable" very well, do we?
Neither did Sweden! That's why I don't care if someone somewhere is something (perhaps the janitor) in a healthcare facility, they are spewing ideology (and truthfully propaganda) when they praise Sweden's approach for protecting the vulnerable. Because there IS NO such approach. Sweden failed to protect the vulnerable. Unless we start calling idle hopes approaches, yes Trump had "idle hopes" to improve the healthcare system, he had zero actual plans. Sweden had "idle hopes" to protect the vulnerable. So unless one knows of any plans Sweden has since adopted that successfully protect the vulnerable (hey actual news I'll listen to), it doesn't even speak of anyone's expertise when they start talking of this, it only speaks of how deeply they have fallen for right wing propaganda.
Meanwhile we keep reifying how people are disposable at a certain age (just for clarity I am not talking end of life issues, those are indeed difficult, I'm talking pandemic) or if they weight too much or whatever again and again and again when this nonsense is spewed, as if it made for a good society. Ugh I wish I didn't have to share a society with people who believe that!
We don't seem to be protecting our "vulnerable" very well, do we?
Part of the problem is many of the vulnerable do not follow advisories and stay home. They get restless and go recreational shopping, out to eat in restaurants, host card parties, attend family gatherings, etc. You watch we will have a bunch of outbreaks after Thanksgiving and Christmas because government cannot really police family holiday gatherings in a free society, only in a police state. And for weeks I have seen stories planted in the news by airlines about how good air is on planes because they want the holiday travel business. Even if the air were perfect it is a bad idea to fly from one part of the country or world to another carrying pathogens in people's lungs.
Part of the problem is many of the vulnerable do not follow advisories and stay home.
This is perhaps the most extreme version of ‘blame the victim’ I’ve ever seen.
I’m going to grudgingly have to sort of agree with Yppej here. Among the various circles I belong to (church, diving, etc.), there are plenty of people who say their vulnerable relatives will NOT stay home. Or those who live with the very vulnerable will not stay home. 20-somethings with respiratory issues who are gathering with friends multiple times a week. Elderly folks with all sorts of health conditions who meet in each other’s homes a lot. They keep going out shopping, refusing all offers of help. Hour long wanders through Walmart or Target, not quick trips.
Here the private gatherings seem to be the source of a lot of spread.
I’m going to grudgingly have to sort of agree with Yppej here. Among the various circles I belong to (church, diving, etc.), there are plenty of people who say their vulnerable relatives will NOT stay home. Or those who live with the very vulnerable will not stay home. 20-somethings with respiratory issues who are gathering with friends multiple times a week. Elderly folks with all sorts of health conditions who meet in each other’s homes a lot. They keep going out shopping, refusing all offers of help. Hour long wanders through Walmart or Target, not quick trips.
Here the private gatherings seem to be the source of a lot of spread.
It would certainly help if our feckless leadership weren't loudly spreading mixed messages. They're really not even mixed, at this point.
It would certainly help if our feckless leadership weren't loudly spreading mixed messages. They're really not even mixed, at this point.
I’m in IL, a Dem stronghold. The gov and the public health authorities are pretty much screaming at people to stay home. Private gatherings limited to 6 people max. People are doing what they want to do, unless you want people to report on their neighbors and get the police involved. If people won’t listen to their relatives pleading with them to stay home, they’re pretty much a lost cause.
iris lilies
10-30-20, 11:30am
I’m in IL, a Dem stronghold. The gov and the public health authorities are pretty much screaming at people to stay home. Private gatherings limited to 6 people max. People are doing what they want to do, unless you want people to report on their neighbors and get the police involved. If people won’t listen to their relatives pleading with them to stay home, they’re pretty much a lost cause.
Agreed. The governor can’t make private individuals curb their behavior. The only power he has is to control dining and entertainment gathering places. So the small restaurant owners are pretty much dying.
As an aside, it was interesting to me to see two physicians I know traveling. On airplanes. To other states. Maybe those states were taking immigrant vacationers? These were pleasure trips. I don’t know I didn’t research it that closely but let’s just say I went hmmmmm.
But laws! more laws! stronger laws! Yeah that’s the ticket, not.
frugal-one
10-30-20, 2:28pm
Agreed. The governor can’t make private individuals curb their behavior. The only power he has is to control dining and entertainment gathering places. So the small restaurant owners are pretty much dying.
As an aside, it was interesting to me to see two physicians I know traveling. On airplanes. To other states. Maybe those states were taking immigrant vacationers? These were pleasure trips. I don’t know I didn’t research it that closely but let’s just say I went hmmmmm.
But laws! more laws! stronger laws! Yeah that’s the ticket, not.
In some instances, YES!
One thing about circles - you should only be part of one circle. If you are part of several circles, and others do the same, then no circle is that safe.
One thing about circles - you should only be part of one circle. If you are part of several circles, and others do the same, then no circle is that safe.
I’m primarily referring to my circles of friends.
But I still go diving and occasionally socially distanced church services.
Just heard on the radio that 2/3 of recent cases are from gatherings in private homes. Half of the deaths in the state of IL occurred in nursing homes or assisting living facilities.
I heard today on the news there is a big uptick in child marriages in India due to covid. Families are selling off girls as young as 12 because they can no longer afford to feed them.
I imagine many folks here won't give a rat's behind about these poor girls, forced to drop out of school to marry grown men, and with their whole lives ahead of them harmed, so long as the economic restrictions in place prolong the lives of sick older Americans by weeks, months, or a small number of years.
I heard today on the news there is a big uptick in child marriages in India due to covid. Families are selling off girls as young as 12 because they can no longer afford to feed them.
I imagine many folks here won't give a rat's behind about these poor girls, forced to drop out of school to marry grown men, and with their whole lives ahead of them harmed, so long as the economic restrictions in place prolong the lives of sick older Americans by weeks, months, or a small number of years.
What do the tragic circumstances of child brides in India due to their covid-imposed economic restrictions have to do with the well-being of older Americans. They are on different continents, I believe.
What do the tragic circumstances of child brides in India due to their covid-imposed economic restrictions have to do with the well-being of older Americans. They are on different continents, I believe.
The US is a huge economic engine for the global economy. Restrictions here impact people around the world, especially the poorest of the poor. Famine is mushrooming since covid lockdowns went into place EVEN IN COUNTRIES WITH NO LOCKDOWNS because of the impact of reduced global trade.
If older and other vulnerable Americans guarded their well being voluntarily through social isolation and government restrictions were not put in place there would not be these deadly unintended consequences around the globe.
Do you think a failed state like Somalia can impose covid restrictions effectively? Do you think poor people in a country like Somalia largely survive on remittances from Somalis working in countries with restrictions that led to them losing their jobs?
This is just one example.
I am absolutely not happy with my priest right now. Due to the increasing positivity rate in IL, he’s banned anyone who has traveled elsewhere in the Midwest from services for 14 days after their return. I travel to WI and OH for diving. It’s no secret. He reached out to me directly and told me I’m banned.
There was no mention of people who are holding gatherings and visiting others homes. Other folks in the parish do this. I’ve seen the photos on FB. And some of these have been gatherings of more than 20 people. When I asked my priest what about those folks, I was told it was none of my business. 2/3 of the recent cases in the Chicago area have been from private gatherings. A number of people in the parish have contracted it from private gatherings with family members.
I’m peeved. I don’t eat in restaurants. I get fast food/carryout. I see my diving friends outdoors and socially distanced. No indoor private gatherings. I always wear a mask. I’ve cancelled my usual Thanksgiving and Christmas gatherings. I work at home. I’ve quit going to the gym for the past two weeks.
Tradd I wonder if you sent your priest Tammy's link on covid risks in pictures would he see the danger of home gatherings. Probably not. So many people have tunnel vision.
dado potato
11-5-20, 9:16pm
Denmark has decided to cull their entire population of mink (15 to 17 million animals). I understand that COVID-19 spread from humans to the mink, then mutated and spread from mink to about 12 humans.
Tradd I wonder if you sent your priest Tammy's link on covid risks in pictures would he see the danger of home gatherings. Probably not. So many people have tunnel vision.
I really doubt it. He’s not been handling other situations well. When someone recently had concerns about the way communion was being distributed (priest uses one large spoon under normal circumstances - wine and a bit of bread are fished out of the chalice with spoon. Priest has been using a different spoon for each person. She thought that was too strict), she was told she was “not allowed to have an opinion” on the topic. Which was really stupid for him to say. He could have listened to her concerns and then told her the bishop has stipulated how it’s to be done.
Is it only women he is dismissive of?
Is it only women he is dismissive of?
Nope. I understand he’s gone toe to toe with a couple of the guys.
The US is a huge economic engine for the global economy. Restrictions here impact people around the world, especially the poorest of the poor. Famine is mushrooming since covid lockdowns went into place EVEN IN COUNTRIES WITH NO LOCKDOWNS because of the impact of reduced global trade.
If older and other vulnerable Americans guarded their well being voluntarily through social isolation and government restrictions were not put in place there would not be these deadly unintended consequences around the globe.
Do you think a failed state like Somalia can impose covid restrictions effectively? Do you think poor people in a country like Somalia largely survive on remittances from Somalis working in countries with restrictions that led to them losing their jobs?
This is just one example.
So we should sacrifice our old people to save people from becoming child brides in India? Fascinating idea.
So we should sacrifice our old people to save people from becoming child brides in India? Fascinating idea.
In fact, those of us following "Your Money Or Your Life"-style living-below-our-means lifestyles are killing millions of people in 3rd-world countries with every cool must-have widget we don't buy.
Monsters!
In fact, those of us following "Your Money Or Your Life"-style living-below-our-means lifestyles are killing millions of people in 3rd-world countries with every cool must-have widget we don't buy.
Monsters!
Wait. I thought that the evil Foxconn iPhone factory had dozens of workers committing suicide because of our insatiable appetite for them. So was my iPhone 11 purchase a year ago killing people or saving them from death? I’m so confused.
I am absolutely not happy with my priest right now. Due to the increasing positivity rate in IL, he’s banned anyone who has traveled elsewhere in the Midwest from services for 14 days after their return. I travel to WI and OH for diving. It’s no secret. He reached out to me directly and told me I’m banned.
There was no mention of people who are holding gatherings and visiting others homes. Other folks in the parish do this. I’ve seen the photos on FB. And some of these have been gatherings of more than 20 people. When I asked my priest what about those folks, I was told it was none of my business. 2/3 of the recent cases in the Chicago area have been from private gatherings. A number of people in the parish have contracted it from private gatherings with family members.
I’m peeved. I don’t eat in restaurants. I get fast food/carryout. I see my diving friends outdoors and socially distanced. No indoor private gatherings. I always wear a mask. I’ve cancelled my usual Thanksgiving and Christmas gatherings. I work at home. I’ve quit going to the gym for the past two weeks.
The priest needs to stop having in person meetings and services of all types. We are setting new death and illness records each day.
Denmark has decided to cull their entire population of mink (15 to 17 million animals). I understand that COVID-19 spread from humans to the mink, then mutated and spread from mink to about 12 humans.
I’ve read that this is a new threat within the various coronavirus related threats, possibly able to affect the whole world.
ApatheticNoMore
11-6-20, 2:28am
It would be wrong to want to run our own society/country in a way that respects human life and human needs because global economic trade demands human sacrifice and a butterfly flapping it's wings somewhere might generate a hurricane half the world away.
And when people wonder why grandpa or their parents had to die (and an occasional younger person, and well a disproportionate amount of poors and minorities), we can tell them: it was in the best interest of child brides in India.
Can anyone really imagine a decent society coming out of that? Where the actual LIVED experience, not the abstraction, is: human life is cheap, people are to be utterly devalued as they get older (and everyone of every age is perfectly aware they aren't getting any younger).
Teacher Terry
11-6-20, 4:16am
That’s scary about it spreading to mink and back to people.
The priest needs to stop having in person meetings and services of all types. We are setting new death and illness records each day.
What do you propose to do with the people who won’t stop privately gathering?
The services are max 40 people in a big space meant to hold more than 200. Spread out. People have a less chance of catching it at church than in the private gatherings people keep having.
I find it strange that people keep hammering on public type stuff when the majority of cases are clearly coming from private gatherings, at least in my area. 2/3 of the recent cases are from private gatherings.
iris lilies
11-6-20, 10:21am
What do you propose to do with the people who won’t stop privately gathering?
The services are max 40 people in a big space meant to hold more than 200. Spread out. People have a less chance of catching it at church than in the private gatherings people keep having.
I find it strange that people keep hammering on public type stuff when the majority of cases are clearly coming from private gatherings, at least in my area. 2/3 of the recent cases are from private gatherings.
Tradd, I agree with you. All the politicians making all the laws and regulations in the world will not stop people gathering in their homes.
When a butterfly flaps its wings in Costa Rica...Everything we do can have unintended consequences. I'm not willing to give up a million people a year in this country in service to some hypothetical issue.
And don't forget about all the COVID-infected individuals who are still suffering its after-effects.
What do you propose to do with the people who won’t stop privately gathering?
The services are max 40 people in a big space meant to hold more than 200. Spread out. People have a less chance of catching it at church than in the private gatherings people keep having.
I find it strange that people keep hammering on public type stuff when the majority of cases are clearly coming from private gatherings, at least in my area. 2/3 of the recent cases are from private gatherings.
We shouldn’t be gathering in private either. I don’t have a solution or proposal because 1. I’m not a politician or public health leader and 2. I’m too exhausted with my own covid recovery to run the world.
ApatheticNoMore
11-6-20, 2:50pm
I'd suggest public health authorities encourage outdoor gatherings, I mean public health missives (here where winter is barely an issue) never even make the distinction between indoor and outdoor, they just say "all gatherings bad", and for at least 6 months all gatherings with people you don't live with were illegal (but noone was listening, nor could they really enforce it). But there is a real difference in transmission between outdoor distanced gatherings and indoor close proximity gatherings.
If the outbreaks in other small towns are anything like the two counties in western Kansas where my cousin-in-law lives and works we will know soon enough if herd immunity is actually a thing with covid. Both counties have exploding case numbers and are having to airlift anyone needing hospitalization to Denver. A bunch of the teachers at the school where my CIL teaches are obviously sick with it but haven’t been tested and are still coming to school. My cousin, her husband, has likely been exposed so he has to ‘quarantine’ which in western Kansas means he can only go to work. Or if you are a student it means you have to wear a face shield but you still participate in everything including team sports. And masks are entirely optional and not widely worn except in my CIL’s classroom where she won’t let anyone in without one.
I just hope my elderly aunt and uncle are staying far away from everyone, including my cousin and CIL.
iris lilies
11-7-20, 11:51am
I'd suggest public health authorities encourage outdoor gatherings, I mean public health missives (here where winter is barely an issue) never even make the distinction between indoor and outdoor, they just say "all gatherings bad", and for at least 6 months all gatherings with people you don't live with were illegal (but noone was listening, nor could they really enforce it). But there is a real difference in transmission between outdoor distanced gatherings and indoor close proximity gatherings.
encouraging outdoor activities is good! Here is St. Louis region we can go outdoors reliably until January hits. And then even in some of those January and February days we can be outside. Then by March it’s warmed up.
I was listening to NPR and one of the Shows interviewed a well-known cook, I think it was the Barefoot Contessa? Don’t remember for sure but someone who produces a lot of cookbooks. Anyway ...she said that the French and Italians eat outside all year and they wear jackets and scarves. She suggests we adopt that practice.
She talked about a friend of hers who had an outdoor dinner party where he provided electric foot warmers for everyone.
The dictator of my state is pushing schools to open even in red aka high risk communities because he thinks masks and curfews solve everything. Now masks are mandated not just inside buildings but everywhere in public. Here are some of the illegal acts I have seen:
Convenience store worker, not allowed to smoke indoors, standing outside the building smoking. Pretty hard to smoke with a mask on.
Man sitting in his parked convertible with the top down not wearing a mask.
Last week before the law went into effect I went on a walk at lunchtime and did not encounter a single other pedestrian. I plan to do the same next week maskless.
The law is stupid and unenforceable.
iris lilies
11-7-20, 5:23pm
The dictator of my state is pushing schools to open even in red aka high risk communities because he thinks masks and curfews solve everything. Now masks are mandated not just inside buildings but everywhere in public. Here are some of the illegal acts I have seen:
Convenience store worker, not allowed to smoke indoors, standing outside the building smoking. Pretty hard to smoke with a mask on.
Man sitting in his parked convertible with the top down not wearing a mask.
Last week before the law went into effect I went on a walk at lunchtime and did not encounter a single other pedestrian. I plan to do the same next week maskless.
The law is stupid and unenforceable.
I guess I am one of those Covid deniers because I refuse to wear a mask outdoors where I dont encounter other humans.
i dont know what our state or city mandate is because see above.
I guess I am one of those Covid deniers because I refuse to wear a mask outdoors where I dont encounter other humans.
i dont know what our state or city mandate is because see above.
I am with you on that. It makes no sense. I am appalled at the number of drivers wearing masks in their cars with no one else in the car! Common sense has left the building!
rosarugosa
11-7-20, 5:54pm
I've been conscientious about wearing a mask and/or social distancing and doing the other recommended behaviors to reduce risk of transmission. I did notice that Charlie Baker said something about the updated mask guidance was in order to "keep it simple." Now I do not have any intention of wearing a mask outdoors if I am not around other people either, and my inference is that this would in fact be fine, but the updated guidance gives the authorities the right to fine someone who is not wearing a masking when they really should be. On our daily walk today, it seems like everyone else is interpreting it similarly.
I am a mosquito magnet. Cannot spend 5 minutes outside even with repellant during bug season. So I do not spend any stationary time outside until after a hard frost. So there is another reason for my isolation.
I guess I am one of those Covid deniers because I refuse to wear a mask outdoors where I dont encounter other humans.
I am on the infectious disease response team, and even I don't bother with a mask when I am outside far from the madding crowd. I usually wear shoes though.
iris lilies
11-7-20, 7:45pm
I am with you on that. It makes no sense. I am appalled at the number of drivers wearing masks in their cars with no one else in the car! Common sense has left the building!
Well now, I have done that when I’m driving from one errand to another. I sometimes forget to take it off my face when I’m darting around the city. I also find that once it’s on me, I need to keep it on because all too often I forget to put on my mask and I am just about ready to step into a store and have to go back to the car and get it. But I do have the kind of mask that hangs around my neck so that’s what I prefer. I can’t get one to fit over my ears.
I am with you on that. It makes no sense. I am appalled at the number of drivers wearing masks in their cars with no one else in the car! Common sense has left the building!
If you're appalled you're part of the problem. Personally if I have multiple stores to go to I put my mask on as I get out of the car at the first place, and then keep it on until I'm done at the last place. Feel free to be appalled with me as I go to all the intermediate places. I will continue to wear my mask because I don't want to kill you. I'd appreciate if you would do the same.
mschrisgo2
11-8-20, 3:43am
If you're appalled you're part of the problem. Personally if I have multiple stores to go to I put my mask on as I get out of the car at the first place, and then keep it on until I'm done at the last place. Feel free to be appalled with me as I go to all the intermediate places. I will continue to wear my mask because I don't want to kill you. I'd appreciate if you would do the same.
I too continue to wear my mask as I drive around town completing my errands, places too far apart to walk to in a reasonable amount of time, but close enough to drive within 10 minutes. Early on, I took to heart the notion that the outside of the mask is possibly contaminated during use, so it makes sense to continue wearing it, rather than handle it in between stops.
And the advice to keep moving- rather than “congregate and linger” - Seems very helpful in avoiding exposure to the virus, as are stores that limit the number of concurrent shoppers.
frugal-one
11-8-20, 5:24am
Sadly, dear friends who are sick.... tested positive for COVID.
happystuff
11-8-20, 10:50am
Sadly, dear friends who are sick.... tested positive for COVID.
I hope it is not severe for them and they recover quickly.
I saw a Biden aide being interviewed. Over the course of a few minutes 5 times she touched the outside of her mask to tug it up as it slipped down her face. This is something I have seen a lot of in person. Masks are very impractical. I doubt even 1% of people only touch the mask with washed hands and clean the mask between each wearing. The laboratory studies on the efficacy of mask wearing do not match real world experience. The mask doesn't slide down the nose of the test dummy, the dummy does not speak jiggling the mask loose, the dummy does not wear glasses that fog up leading the dummy to slide the mask down so it only covers the mouth not the nose, etc.
happystuff
11-8-20, 2:33pm
I saw a Biden aide being interviewed. Over the course of a few minutes 5 times she touched the outside of her mask to tug it up as it slipped down her face. This is something I have seen a lot of in person. Masks are very impractical. I doubt even 1% of people only touch the mask with washed hands and clean the mask between each wearing. The laboratory studies on the efficacy of mask wearing do not match real world experience. The mask doesn't slide down the nose of the test dummy, the dummy does not speak jiggling the mask loose, the dummy does not wear glasses that fog up leading the dummy to slide the mask down so it only covers the mouth not the nose, etc.
Does the dummy continue to whine about having to wear a mask?
Yppej, we figure masks are going to be mandatory through at least the spring, so we're trying different masks to see if we can't find one that is more comfortable for me to wear. Right now, I definitely cut every activity short, and I'd like to find one that is more comfortable so I don't start panicking and have to leave the store. (We really have stopped doing anything else, mainly because of the masks.). So I am putting effort into that. You might want to consider doing the same thing, so that you could be more comfortable. I don't want to be unhappy for the next six-twelve months, however long we are stuck with this.
I get where you are coming from, I really do. But the requirements are not going away, and I'm working to adjust so that I can deal with the requirements.
And you have my complete sympathies, as you are an essential worker and having to be out all day long wearing a mask. Thank you for doing that!
we're trying different masks to see if we can't find one that is more comfortable for me to wear
Here's a larger than usual mask- intended for singers or people who like to open their mouths wide (as in laughing)- this is from a company that I purchase a lot of bags from: https://www.tombihn.com/collections/facemasks/products/v4mask?variant=32762416988223
Thank you for that suggestion!
You are right Tybee, we will probably be stuck with masks for a long time since Biden and his Uncle Sam knows best cohorts have been elected. I can see a scenario where the most vulnerable people such as nursing home residents have all been vaccinated and we still have a mandate, even where everyone who feels comfortable with the vaccine has gotten it but to try to force anti-vaccers onboard the government refuses to lift a national mask mandate or allow certain businesses to reopen until people who don't want the vaccine knuckle under.
ETA already my governor is forcing people to get the flu vaccine. Imagine how much more coercion will come with covid which is a more serious threat.
I can see a flock of lawn flamingoes in the forest outside my window, and they make me imagine many things. Most of them are silly.
frugal-one
11-8-20, 7:30pm
Early on purchased bamboo masks.... happy so far.
rosarugosa
11-8-20, 8:04pm
This reminds me of something I was considering recently. A few months ago, I got sucked in by an online ad for masks that had the most amazing graphics. They took forever to get here and were from somewhere in Asia. They were basically not OK for me because they didn't have the wire piece on top and so fogged up my glasses, but I also noticed more recently that these masks really do make me feel like someone has a hand over my face and is smothering me. I think they ship from a company called AlyCandy or something similar.
Most of our masks are from Prefix Masks in Los Angeles. Those have the wires and they are a stiffer fabric, so they don't plaster themselves to your nostrils when you inhale. I give them a big thumbs up.
I now also have some disposable surgical-type masks, and these are the lightest and easiest for carrying on a conversation. I use these when I visit my mother since she seems to have more trouble understanding me when I'm wearing a mask.
It occurred to me that if I only had AlyCandy masks, I would be a lot less receptive to the whole mask wearing concept, so as mentioned upthread, it's important to have a good mask.
Ironic that so many masks are made in China.
Ironic that so many masks are made in China.
Actually not really. Asians have been wearing masks when sick for years.
Fashionista that I am (ha!), I just ordered a buffalo plaid flannel mask from Beau Ties of Vermont*. I'm happy with their product
*Just in case I should leave the house some day and interact with people...
happystuff
11-9-20, 11:20am
But the requirements are not going away, and I'm working to adjust so that I can deal with the requirements.
No, the requirements are not going away and even after they may be lifted, I think a lot of folks will continue to wear masks for various reasons at various times just like jp1 pointed out within the Asian countries.
Deleted section of my personal stuff.
My point in relating all this is - Yppej, choose what you will and won't do re: masks, accept the consequences of your actions, and move on! You are NOT the only one going through all this and you are NOT the only one with issues.
Edited to add: I really don't think what anyone does or says is going to make a difference for you, as you seem to be intent on finding the negative in life around you. I wish you continued health and hope you can find some happiness.
happystuff
11-9-20, 11:39am
She is entitled to her opinions, even if others don't like her opinions.
Absolutely! I have no issues with people having their own opinions. I appreciate what she is going through and it would be nice if she reciprocated the same to others. You and I just seem to have different interpretations of all her mask posts.
As always, I wish everyone health and safety in these times. EVERYONE!
Hi Happystuff, I deleted my post as I really did make a promise to myself to avoid this thread for my mental health, and darned if I didn't break that promise.
happystuff
11-9-20, 11:43am
Hi Happystuff, I deleted my post as I really did make a promise to myself to avoid this thread for my mental health, and darned if I didn't break that promise.
I totally understand. I appreciate your input. Debating mine.
Have a good day.
I totally understand. I appreciate your input. Debating mine.
Have a good day.
I found your post useful. There are countless essential workers out there wearing masks and dealing--with equanimity.
I walked at lunchtime, no other humans outdoors, and a coworker saw me through the window and was joking he is going to call the governor on me.
He is a smoker and I asked him how are smokers who are not allowed to smoke indoors supposed to smoke wearing a mask since masks are now mandated outdoors at all times too. Of course he did not have an answer. He is moving to Florida next week and happy to be leaving the People's Republic of Massachusetts behind.
Cases, and deaths, are surging in El Paso to the point that they now need ten, yes ten, mobile morgue units to handle all the dead people. Yet republican officials are suing to reverse the El Paso mayor's stay-at-home order. Because that's how the "right to life" party rolls.
happystuff
11-10-20, 11:35am
He is a smoker and I asked him how are smokers who are not allowed to smoke indoors supposed to smoke wearing a mask since masks are now mandated outdoors at all times too. Of course he did not have an answer.
Nice of you to worry about his smoking habits, but isn't that his own issue to deal with, not yours?
I heard on the news today cases are surging but deaths are not. We have more cases than at previous peaks, but nowhere near the same percentage are lethal. I bet covid already killed the people most vulnerable to it and will become less and less lethal even as politicians like my governor work themselves into a dither trying to come up with novel restrictions. If present trends continue pretty soon all our freedoms will be gone even as no one is dying. Then the script will be see how taking away people's rights stopped the virus. We can't restore rights because the virus will come back. Bye bye freedom, gone forever, because it will be the flu or some other excuse even if we get a vaccine.
OK.... Well, hey, thanks for the warning...
(Backs slowly away....)
I noticed Biden is focusing on a mask mandate rather than another stimulus bill to help all the struggling businesses and unemployed people. If governors don't hop on the mask train he will harangue county and municipal officials. Given how big the country is this mask mania will take most of the energy of his administration.
Gosh, that sounds terrible.
If only he were President, and had a Senate, why then he could get a stimulus bill through! I guess that's not quite yet though, so he's stuck with talking to people and asking them nicely to Do The Right Thing.
frugal-one
11-10-20, 9:24pm
Cases, and deaths, are surging in El Paso to the point that they now need ten, yes ten, mobile morgue units to handle all the dead people. Yet republican officials are suing to reverse the El Paso mayor's stay-at-home order. Because that's how the "right to life" party rolls.
That is not the only place. Wisconsin Governor Evers just on tv requesting everyone stay home and republicans here are are suing too. Hospital beds are nearly full and projecting 5,000 more deaths here by year end.
Teacher Terry
11-10-20, 9:34pm
El Paso has a bunch of refrigerator trucks at the morgue to hold all the bodies of the people that aren’t dead I guess according to Y.
Airline bookings are up, and holiday gatherings will spread the virus far and wide. But hey, masks will save us, right?
frugal-one
11-10-20, 9:48pm
Airline bookings are up, and holiday gatherings will spread the virus far and wide. But hey, masks will save us, right?
troll
Airline bookings are up, and holiday gatherings will spread the virus far and wide. But hey, masks will save us, right?
Dead horses will. We shall feast on them, roasted over the flames of the burning cities, waiting for Winter to fall.
Airline bookings are up, and holiday gatherings will spread the virus far and wide. But hey, masks will save us, right?
Staying home would save us. But apparently people are willing to risk their lives to eat a dry, overcooked turkey with people they claim to love. Like crazy uncle Donald.
I predict, and you heard it hear first, that three weeks after thanksgiving the death toll will be surging. Yay freedom.
rosarugosa
11-11-20, 9:26am
Dead horses will. We shall feast on them, roasted over the flames of the burning cities, waiting for Winter to fall.
I never liked turkey all that much. :laff:
Did I ever mention that the 'ignore' button is a wonderful thing?
iris lilies
11-11-20, 9:40am
I am tired of the constant blabber from radio about coronavirus infection rate going up.. It seems like every person put in front of the microphone has to remind us all of it and wear a mask and dont gather outside of your pod and etc etc. New records of new cases! New records of this! New records of that!
As though we don't already know about it.
Well, I suppose since the trump threat has now been reduced, they have this new single issue to scream about endlessly.
Please note I am not arguing the threat of Covid, I am arguing the single-minded blasting message of radio ( and likely other medias)
So many times media over-does it and we as listeners become immune to their message to the point of considering it bunk.
Iris, maybe you should simply turn off the tv and radio for a few days. Just a suggestion. I don't feel smothered by the messages at all, but I'm not plugged in all. the. time. How much time are you giving of your life over to the media?
iris lilies
11-11-20, 2:31pm
Iris, maybe you should simply turn off the tv and radio for a few days. Just a suggestion. I don't feel smothered by the messages at all, but I'm not plugged in all. the. time. How much time are you giving of your life over to the media?
Radio is on in our house for a couple of hours in the morning. As background of course. Not my choice. This morning, between Ads for whatever and Covid Covid Covid, the show had a local law school professor assess the supreme court’s hearing of the AC?a. His low, sonorous voice was soothing and also enlightening.
And then, after radio a.m. I will occasionally turn on Rush to hear his middle hour which I believe is best because he saves the best for that hour. And then, I even more occasionally, when in the car at 3 pm, will listen to Libertarian radio ( Dave Glover).
I do not watch tv news.
My neighbor is flying a Belarus flag in solidarity with the rebels, and I was annoyed with myself for having no freaking clue what that is about, even tho it borders my next .european trip. I may have to follow what Tradd is doing and listen to world news and not thru NP?r because I am sure their Covid Covid Covid news is as relentless.
Another positive about the BBC is there are NO commercials (aside from promos for their own programs). It’s wonderful.
12K new cases in IL for the past 24 hours. IL and Chicago have both issued stay at home advisories for the next 30 days.
Asking people to again work from home if they can.
Heard on the radio the state of IA has a 50% positivity rate.
I wish Al Jazeera were still on the air; they had relatively few commercials and next to no pointless puff pieces. Fortunately, I can still find them on line.
Last I looked, there were maybe one or two states that weren't surging. The middle of the country is having all kinds of problems keeping up with the virus, particularly as it comes to staffing, and PPE, naturally, is becoming a problem again. Tell me again why we aren't manufacturing it?
..., and PPE, naturally, is becoming a problem again. Tell me again why we aren't manufacturing it?
Freedumb.
Freedumb.
Depressing. We should be knee-deep in masks, gloves, face shields, etc. by now.
iris lilies
11-12-20, 5:39pm
12K new cases in IL for the past 24 hours. IL and Chicago have both issued stay at home advisories for the next 30 days.
Asking people to again work from home if they can.
Heard on the radio the state of IA has a 50% positivity rate.
My brother is a respiratory therapist at the major hospital in Des Moines.
Apparently with no indoor service at bars and restaurants, people are heading to downtown Chicago hotels to party. Hotels are having a hard time policing it. They don’t have the security personnel they did before the pandemic.
Prohibitions don't work. What does is advocacy and persuasion. Millions from Capone to the Kennedys got around Prohibition, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving changed our culture forever by stigmatizing driving under the influence.
I wonder what the covid response would be if instead of government ordering us around there were PSAs featuring individuals and families affected by covid, and we were allowed to individualize our response based on our circumstances.
Tell me I can or can't do something and like any freedom loving person I am extremely resentful.
Look at our failed war on drugs and the opioid epidemic if you think you can outlaw a medical problem out of existence.
ApatheticNoMore
11-12-20, 8:03pm
Tell me I can or can't do something and like any freedom loving person I am extremely resentful.
I don't envy your boss.
(most of us do or don't do things as we are told all the time, maybe solely for a paycheck, maybe because it makes practical things work, like not deciding red lights mean go and green lights mean stop because we don't like being told otherwise, and btw they can ticket you for it)
Indoor bars have been illegal here the whole time except for a brief period that led to a crazy covid surge, now I'm certain some may flaunt the laws, but also there seems a very direct correlation between opening up bars and covid surges. I bet in the long run it works a lot better to keep the most risky activities closed the whole time, and everyone says bars are a most risky activity, than to open everything, surge, and retreat, open everything, surge and retreat. I really think places that have been stricter on the more risky activities are playing the long game here in the hopes of not being faced with a choice of "close everything or watch hospitals get overwhelmed", but we'll see, there's a lot of covid around and spreading.
JaneV2.0
11-13-20, 10:39am
I keep thinking of Londoners during the war turning all their lights on because "You can't tell me what to do!" What a bunch of entitled brats we are.
JaneV2.0
11-13-20, 10:58am
PSAs aren't a bad idea, but because people here are clearly a bunch of entitled brats, some negative reinforcement is often necessary.
As I've said before, we have to do things we don't like all the time (mandatory insurance, anyone?)--it's the price one pays to live in a society where yours is not the only viewpoint.
Prohibitions don't work. What does is advocacy and persuasion. Millions from Capone to the Kennedys got around Prohibition, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving changed our culture forever by stigmatizing driving under the influence.
I wonder what the covid response would be if instead of government ordering us around there were PSAs featuring individuals and families affected by covid, and we were allowed to individualize our response based on our circumstances.
Tell me I can or can't do something and like any freedom loving person I am extremely resentful.
Look at our failed war on drugs and the opioid epidemic if you think you can outlaw a medical problem out of existence.
People here in IL are clearly partying at home.
Yeah, my husband's family had to cancel their reunion because of Covid, not safe. . .
I wonder what the covid response would be if instead of government ordering us around there were PSAs featuring individuals and families affected by covid, and we were allowed to individualize our response based on our circumstances.
I've actually seen some of those. Maybe they need to be broadcast during Faux Snooze or redneck reality shows so more will see them.
I've seen them, too. They seem to be inspired by those vaccine ads with the poor grandmother becoming the Big Bad Wolf--in this version, young folks are partying and then hug the 60'ish grandma and you just know she's going to get it.
Doesn't work for me, but maybe others find it useful. I'm not the target audience cause I'm the grandma in both ads.
happystuff
11-13-20, 3:37pm
I wonder what the covid response would be if instead of government ordering us around there were PSAs featuring individuals and families affected by covid, and we were allowed to individualize our response based on our circumstances.
So that would that work for you? Reading Tammy's experiences on the forum doesn't seemed to have made a difference to you, so I'm wondering why you bring up a possible solution that still doesn't seem to effect you.
I don’t think any sort of PSA is likely to work. My mom’s hometown in western Kansas population 1200 has surging case numbers. 67 confirmed infections and little testing. And is shipping everyone who needs a hospital hundreds of miles away by helicopter. They had a death this week and the church funeral will be tomorrow, open to anyone.
ApatheticNoMore
11-13-20, 4:03pm
I keep thinking of Londoners during the war turning all their lights on because "You can't tell me what to do!" What a bunch of entitled brats we are.
And anyway who is more free now: a citizen of New Zealand where they have no covid, or a citizen of the most lenient state in the U.S. whatever that is, maybe a Dakota, where masks were never mandated nor any shutdowns enforced. It's obvious. The citizen of New Zealand is going about NORMAL life without care with all the infinite freedom that implies. And the sensible citizen of whatever state where cases are likely exploding is probably haunted by caution, even whatever risks they decide might be worth taking, they are never unaware there is a risk, even if they are in a lower risk group, for most it's still probably best not to get covid than to get it, and then visiting with anyone in a higher risk group is a bad idea. So their freedom is inevitably curtailed to at least some degree by sensible precaution. Meanwhile the citizen of New Zealand is in actuality free to go about life.
That's what a serious plan, decent government, serious social cooperation, serious but limited shutdown etc. could achieve. But it entails a limited period of being told what you can and can't do (the definition of freedom of a 12 year old), as opposed to infinite amount of time being constrained by an endless virus. Mind you I don't think it's the fault of U.S. citizens we don't have that, yea sure some of them suck and will beat up an employee requiring a mask, yea some suck, but this actually requires good government not just good citizens, and we certainly didn't have it under Trump, and it's hard to come by in most of the west it seems. Our governments have failed us.
Teacher Terry
11-13-20, 5:15pm
There have been stories on the news about people losing family members. Especially heartbreaking when they are young and healthy.
Well said, ApatheticNoMore.
And what about the poor health care workers, who are basically sitting ducks, reusing masks and knee-deep in infection, day after day.
The latest is that staff is so decimated, hospitals are drafting employees infected with COVID to work with COVID patients. theoretically, those infected would be immune to further infection. But do we know that for sure? (Can you imagine dragging your exhausted self to work every day as a nurse?) And all because we have a spoiled child president and a percentage of citizenry that believes that this is either a hoax or overblown and the 240,000+ deaths are explainable as something else.
And anyway who is more free now: a citizen of New Zealand where they have no covid, or a citizen of the most lenient state in the U.S. whatever that is, maybe a Dakota, where masks were never mandated nor any shutdowns enforced. It's obvious. The citizen of New Zealand is going about NORMAL life without care with all the infinite freedom that implies. And the sensible citizen of whatever state where cases are likely exploding is probably haunted by caution, even whatever risks they decide might be worth taking, they are never unaware there is a risk, even if they are in a lower risk group, for most it's still probably best not to get covid than to get it, and then visiting with anyone in a higher risk group is a bad idea. So their freedom is inevitably curtailed to at least some degree by sensible precaution. Meanwhile the citizen of New Zealand is in actuality free to go about life.
That's what a serious plan, decent government, serious social cooperation, serious but limited shutdown etc. could achieve. But it entails a limited period of being told what you can and can't do (the definition of freedom of a 12 year old), as opposed to infinite amount of time being constrained by an endless virus. Mind you I don't think it's the fault of U.S. citizens we don't have that, yea sure some of them suck and will beat up an employee requiring a mask, yea some suck, but this actually requires good government not just good citizens, and we certainly didn't have it under Trump, and it's hard to come by in most of the west it seems. Our governments have failed us.
IL is a Democratic stronghold. Masks have been mandated for months now. The good little Democrats keep having private gatherings and the plague keeps spreading.
iris lilies
11-13-20, 6:14pm
I don’t think any sort of PSA is likely to work. My mom’s hometown in western Kansas population 1200 has surging case numbers. 67 confirmed infections and little testing. And is shipping everyone who needs a hospital hundreds of miles away by helicopter. They had a death this week and the church funeral will be tomorrow, open to anyone.
PSAs are just more media blathering.
Either you take your health seriously enough to take precautions, or you dont.
Arguably PSAs and warnings on cigarette packages had some impact on smoking.
iris lilies
11-13-20, 7:15pm
Arguably PSAs and warnings on cigarette packages had some impact on smoking.
Look, I get it that all media outlets need to be used to spread whatever message must be spread.But we didn’t get anti smoking 24/7 on news although certainly we got that message often.
But if there are those who have not heard of
corona virus and its implications by now, a PSA on someone’s tv or radio station won’t help them.
But if there are those who have not heard of
corona virus and its implications by now, a PSA on someone’s tv or radio station won’t help them.
I suspect part of the problem is that a sizeable portion of the population prefers media outlets that lead them to believe this is all some sort of authoritarian hoax.
ApatheticNoMore
11-13-20, 7:31pm
I don't think states much less cities can solve this. Local messaging to the extent it exists here has been *bad* though.
I kind of get how everyone now is caught in a truly impossible situation. My mental health is terrible for various reasons including the life I'm living under covid (hopefully that's not TOO obvious :cool: ,I mostly mean depressed).
So at a certain point people are just screw it, as the prevention is almost worse than the disease. Only the disease is not good. I say that but the only person I have seen inside since March is my bf, eh and the doctor, and the store. I realize how badly I need to just go over to my mom's house and chill sometimes just to feel like myself again (mom won't live forever, but she is plenty alive now, but @#$# covid and I can't hang indoors or close, moms a happy person since she's long done with caretaking). So it becomes how much more of this can I even take. Working from home since March, they were going to bring us back to the office some days a week, so being that I'm totally resigned to covid ever going away at this point, I dutifully went wearing a mask all day (cloth as lets be real, I can do an hour in an N95 but not all day) for a few days. But that plan has been put on hold, so back to work from home.
Chicken lady
11-13-20, 8:20pm
Yppej,
what would get you to wear a mask anytime you are in a public building, around people you don’t live with, or outside but likely to be close to others? Anything?
iris lilies
11-13-20, 8:55pm
Yppej,
what would get you to wear a mask anytime you are in a public building, around people you don’t live with, or outside but likely to be close to others? Anything?
Why do you think she doesnt wear a mask in the situations you describe?
iris lilies
11-13-20, 8:57pm
I suspect part of the problem is that a sizeable portion of the population prefers media outlets that lead them to believe this is all some sort of authoritarian hoax.
You are overstating the “other side’s” POV.
It aint that simple.
You are overstating the “other side’s” POV.
It aint that simple.
True. It may just be that they're major jerks like this guy.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gop-coronavirus-lawmaker-ignore-rules_n_5fae3df4c5b6370e7e31c91b?ncid=engmodushpmg 00000003&guccounter=1
ApatheticNoMore
11-14-20, 12:00am
Covid case in boyfriends office again (last one was a few months ago, there was also a 3rd one in just the office building), here we go again. Oh they wear masks, all day. So covid tests and quarantining from bf again.
Chicken lady
11-14-20, 8:00am
Perhaps she does. Perhaps the conditions that get her to wear a mask have already occurred.
based on yppej’s posts I don’t think the answer is “hearing from multiple mainstream sources that masks are a good idea”
I have a coworker who wears her mask because it is required. But as soon as the kids leave, she takes it off because she is “working alone”. I now leave work by the (no alarm) fire exit because I am not interested in walking through the reception space she has been breathing freely in for as much as an hour. She does not meet my definition of wearing a mask in a public building, but I get the impression Yppej would find her behavior totally fine.
Wear a work of art:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZGRml6l37Y
In May and June, we were allowed to take off our masks when working alone in an office with the door closed. That’s when we thought it was primarily droplet transmission.
Now that we are seeing the airborne component those recommendations have changed.
One of the rough things about covid is that the recommendations change as we learn more.
Here is an example of the idea that masks will save us. A coworker has been pressured by his family to fly to Florida, pick up granny, and fly back with her to Massachusetts so she can attend all the family holiday gatherings. He thinks it is a bad idea. I think it is a bad idea. But hey, they will wear masks on the plane and he will get a covid test before returning to work so what could go wrong?
rosarugosa
11-14-20, 6:51pm
I think the reality is that masks are one of the tools that, if used properly, can reduce risk. If people think they are some type of panacea, they are of course mistaken, but that doesn't mean they don't have value.
iris lilies
11-14-20, 6:52pm
Here is an example of the idea that masks will save us. A coworker has been pressured by his family to fly to Florida, pick up granny, and fly back with her to Massachusetts so she can attend all the family holiday gatherings. He thinks it is a bad idea. I think it is a bad idea. But hey, they will wear masks on the plane and he will get a covid test before returning to work so what could go wrong?
It’s a ridiculous idea. Good luck to all in that one.
And this is why the rules need to be more than voluntary recommendations. Selfish assholes will ignore them and put their whole community at risk.
https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article247141799.html
iris lilies
11-14-20, 8:13pm
And this is why the rules need to be more than voluntary recommendations. Selfish assholes will ignore them and put their whole community at risk.
https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article247141799.html
Or maybe parents could exercise parental discretion and tell their little darlings NO. No little darling. You are not going to be able to have a homecoming dance in your senior year of high school. Yes it is tragic and probably something you will never get over and possibly it is the worst thing the world is ever known but yeah. No dance for you.
The Biden voters and Black Lives Matter folks in my neighborhood were all over the city park playground with their privileged littke tykes when they weren’t supposed to be. There was a lot of justification of trick-or-treating in my neighborhood which was deemed a huge success. I know who they voted for because I know what signs they have in the yard.
There is not even remotely enough law-enforcement personnel to take these people onBesides remember how special they are they are they intelligent Sia who vote for Biden. They know best.
If you think it’s only Maga hat wears ignoring the health department’s recommendations, think again.
Meanwhile, my neighbors across the street in Hermann were some of the earlier cases in that rural county and they were absolutely locked down with all of their girls for weeks on end. They were so incredibly careful. Those kids did not go anywhere. Their friends came to their yard and talked to them from out in the street. They are popular girls and they have a lot of friends.
One lesson I take away from that is you can be as careful as shit and still catch the virus.
But by all means JP, please continue to post your screeds about dumb flyover country people because we are quite stupid when compared to you people on the West Coast.
But by all means JP, please continue to post your screeds about dumb flyover country people because we are quite stupid when compared to you people on the West Coast.
Thank you, Iris.
Nancy Pelosi, who illegally had her hair colored, while not wearing a mask, when salons were supposed to be closed, is an example of West Coast noncompliance.
Teacher Terry
11-14-20, 10:55pm
I don’t think any one state holds the record for risky behavior. There’s people everywhere not wearing masks and being careful. We are back to staying home because it’s too cold to be outside long and the virus is surging. We have not went anywhere with crowds. The problem with teens is that you can’t always control what they do no matter how hard you try.
Or maybe parents could exercise parental discretion and tell their little darlings NO. No little darling. You are not going to be able to have a homecoming dance in your senior year of high school. Yes it is tragic and probably something you will never get over and possibly it is the worst thing the world is ever known but yeah. No dance for you.
But by all means JP, please continue to post your screeds about dumb flyover country people because we are quite stupid when compared to you people on the West Coast.
By all means please post articles about parents exercising reponsible discretion then. I realize that article is just one group of stupid effs who failed to exercise discretion. And it's not just midwestern folks. The jackass state rep on Staten Island who is planning a mega-thanksgiving at his home is just as much of an ass. Hopefully his elderly relatives are smart enough to decline the invite. All of these stories combined make clear to me that there are just a whole lot of "but muh freedumb" people out there who won't do the right thing unless there are penalties. How many daily cases and deaths will it take before people realize that their actions are killing people? We're already pushing 200k new cases per day. Will it take 300k? 500k? A million americans a day getting infected before these jerks realize, and care, that their actions are literally killing people? Sadly even that number probably wouldn't impress them, even though at that point we'd have to be airlifting patients halfway across the country to find an empty hospital bed if there was even one available anywhere.
And no, I don't think people in flyover country are stupid. I just think they've bought into trump's stupid BS and put themselves needlessly at risk. Why anyone would follow this administration's covid anything is surprising since 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue probably has one of the highest infection rates of anywhere in the country.
Dude, IL as blue as NY or CA. Few people here have “bought into Trump’s stupid BS.” Maybe in the rural areas. Cases out the arse here. Dem gov who is threatening another lockdown. Chicago, too. I rarely see anyone without a mask at the store.
It’s the damned private gatherings.
It’s the damned private gatherings.
And restaurants/bars being too open. But yeah, it's people getting together indoors without masks. Like the stupid parents hosting a homecoming dance in a restaurant. Like the stupid ass state rep on Staten Island in blue state NY who plans to have a big superspreader thanksgiving at his home.
I think we're actually in agreement here. I haven't spent any time indoors with anyone other than SO since this began. And certainly not without a mask. And I don't plan to any time soon. When the movers were doing their thing I insisted that SO and I stay outside as much as possible and we had all the windows wide open until an hour after they left. Who knows. Maybe our numbers are only good because we have nice weather here all summer so people can easily get together outside. If that's the case and we have a cold, wet winter then maybe our numbers will go through the roof in the next few months. I don't know.
You seem to be focusing on the big private gatherings. But the majority aren’t that way. I keep hearing on the radio and FB of people getting the plague after being exposed at smallish private gatherings, say under 10 people or so. But no masks.
The restaurants/bars here had no more than 50% capacity for indoor service. The state is divided into regions and indoor service was shut down at certain times when numbers went too high. All indoor bar/restaurant service has been shut down now for at least the past week. Outdoor only now, although that won’t last well with Midwestern winter weather.
Teacher Terry
11-15-20, 11:36am
Jp, I am guessing your nice weather is helping since you can do many things outside.
frugal-one
11-15-20, 1:43pm
And restaurants/bars being too open. But yeah, it's people getting together indoors without masks. Like the stupid parents hosting a homecoming dance in a restaurant. Like the stupid ass state rep on Staten Island in blue state NY who plans to have a big superspreader thanksgiving at his home.
I think we're actually in agreement here. I haven't spent any time indoors with anyone other than SO since this began. And certainly not without a mask. And I don't plan to any time soon. When the movers were doing their thing I insisted that SO and I stay outside as much as possible and we had all the windows wide open until an hour after they left. Who knows. Maybe our numbers are only good because we have nice weather here all summer so people can easily get together outside. If that's the case and we have a cold, wet winter then maybe our numbers will go through the roof in the next few months. I don't know.
[/B
Interesting on the perception of cold. Here in WI people are outside eating ice cream in 30 degree weather. Noticed places put up ice shanties outside their businesses in hopes people will eat there when it is cold. It is 36 and windy now and saw one occupied. You couldn't pay me to eat in a confined space like that. Also wonder about how to sterilize the place???
I'm not sure why Nancy Pelosi's stylist is such a big deal when surely all the blondes in the White House aren't dyeing their own hair.
I guess she could have had it colored by someone in her bubble... And how do we know she wasn't wearing a mask, anyway?
I just read an article confirming what most of us have assumed for a long time--that masks (assuming they're well-designed) protect the wearer as well as those around them. It's just common sense, but it's nice to have science to back it up.
I'm not just focused on large indoor gatherings, I'm focused on all indoor gathering without masks, which includes restaurants/bars. Looking at the covid risk assessment map which shows the likelihood of there being at least one infected person in a gathering of various sizes the numbers are scary:
St Louis County:
In a group of 25 people there's a 55% chance that at least one person will have an active case.
In a group of 15 people there's a 38% chance that at least one person will have an active case
Cook county IL,
25 people, 65% chance
15 people 47% chance.
San Francisco
25 people 11% chance
15 people, 7% chance
Washoe County NV
25 people 57% chance
15 people 40% chance
King County WA (Seattle)
25 people, 22% chance
15 people, 14% chance
Greeley County KS (mom's hometown)
50% chance with a group of TENpeople.
In ND there are currently 8 counties where the risk of at least one current positive is over 75% for groups of just 10 people. Yet the governor of the state only just the other day finally implemented a mask requirement. Almost 1 in every 1000 residents of that state has died from covid. And they are only now implementing a mask requirement?
Any of those, even San Francisco's or Seattle's numbers, seem like really bad odds if one is considering eating indoors at a restaurant.
https://covid19risk.biosci.gatech.edu/
I'm not sure why Nancy Pelosi's stylist is such a big deal when surely all the blondes in the White House aren't dyeing their own hair.
I guess she could have had it colored by someone in her bubble... And how do we know she wasn't wearing a mask, anyway?
She was caught on video.
She was caught on video.
Not a good look, Nancy.
She was caught on video.
She claimed she was set up.
She claimed she was set up.
Giving her the benefit of the doubt, the salon employee may have told her we can have one customer at a time.
But why no mask? And why not verify the information? I remember in the scruffy spring days ordinary folks all knew what you could and couldn't get whether cut, color, blow dry, beard trim, etc. Of course we have to know, because the rules apply to us.
Not a good look, Nancy.
I agree. At the time outdoor stylist work was allowed. Nancy should have done that. Then the news would have been good.
I agree. At the time outdoor stylist work was allowed. Nancy should have done that. Then the news would have been good.'Not a good look' seems rather tame coming from you. I've become accustomed to your rants about asshole Republicans putting others at risk in similar situations because they're asshole Republicans. I'm now confused, wondering if you've become more sympathetic or maybe if Kevin McCarthy did something similar you'd return to vintage jp1 form. ;)
I was rethinking my stance on Speaker Pelosi's mask wearing, or lack thereof, and since I haven't seen the video, I'll clarify. If she was within six feet of others, she should have worn a mask. If she was just walking from her car or on the sidewalk not near other pedestrians, IMO, she doesn't need a mask. Distance matters. She certainly should have worn one in the salon.
Before I read more closely, I thought you were quoting me. "Asshole Republicans" may have crossed my mind, but not my keyboard. :~)
The Chicago mayor got a haircut during the lockdown in the spring. Photos were posted of her and the stylist right next to each other, no masks. Lightfoot said she’s in the public a lot and needed the cut as a result. She got roasted locally for it.
https://ktrh.iheart.com/featured/michael-berry/content/2020-04-07-chicago-mayor-defends-haircut-during-lockdown/
I was rethinking my stance on Speaker Pelosi's mask wearing, or lack thereof, and since I haven't seen the video, I'll clarify. If she was within six feet of others, she should have worn a mask. If she was just walking from her car or on the sidewalk not near other pedestrians, IMO, she doesn't need a mask. Distance matters. She certainly should have worn one in the salon.
The video was from the salon's interior cameras and as I recall she wasn't wearing her mask as she moved from a hair washing station to the stylist chair, well within the recommended 6' buffer zone from the stylist.
Personally I'd agree with you and jp1 that it wasn't a good look but can't resist a friendly chop busting opportunity when it's presented. :cool:
I was astonished when I found out the 86 year old senior lady I've been grocery shopping for since April has gone to Costco several times over the past month - all because her 94 year old neighbor (who went with her!) wanted a certain type of toilet paper.
Costco is about the worst place you could go. I'm sure it was probably less crowded during the weekday when they went, but still. I told her if they had wanted bigger packages of TP than could be gotten at the regular grocery store, I would have gladly gone to Target or Walmart for them.
I just want to say God bless you, Tradd, for shopping for them. They sound like my parents--what they do does not make sense sometimes.
I just want to say God bless you, Tradd, for shopping for them. They sound like my parents--what they do does not make sense sometimes.
The 86 year old has been a widow for nearly 20 years. Her daughter and son in law recently moved back to IL and are closer than they were, but still 45 min away. I’m only 20 min away. She’s a good friend and we shared a music stand in choir for 13 years before covid hit. Yeah, definitely doesn’t make sense. She’s been to the doctor and dentist, once to the PO, and to the grocery store pharmacy to get her flu shot. She also voted in person. I at least talked her into going about 10 am as few people would be there, which was the case. She wears masks all the time at least.
I do my shopping when I do hers so aside from 40 minutes of driving, not a big deal. And I happen to like to drive.
sweetana3
11-16-20, 8:14am
We found out 87 year old mom takes the complex bus to Walmart. ARGGGG. Costco is far safer. They have much more room to distance, everyone is checked for a mask, plexiglass at checkout, etc. They have even continued senior hours at our locations.
iris lilies
11-16-20, 8:43am
We found out 87 year old mom takes the complex bus to Walmart. ARGGGG. Costco is far safer. They have much more room to distance, everyone is checked for a mask, plexiglass at checkout, etc. They have even continued senior hours at our locations.
The bus doesn’t seem like a good idea to me.
Teacher Terry
11-16-20, 12:17pm
I am guessing complex bus means riding with people she is living with. Try to talk her into going to Costco instead.
Watching the news today I saw I will be in the last group of people eligible for the vaccine. I am a frontline worker but not frontline enough (medicine, food and education are the favored sectors), not old enough, not young enough, and not sick enough to be prioritized.
I am okay with this.
iris lilies
11-16-20, 9:04pm
Watching the news today I saw I will be in the last group of people eligible for the vaccine. I am a frontline worker but not frontline enough (medicine, food and education are the favored sectors), not old enough, not young enough, and not sick enough to be prioritized.
I am okay with this.
ugh, be well jep!
I think I would prefer to be away from humankind until everyone else is vaccinated. I don’t mind going to the end of the line.
I think I will hold off on vaccinations until I've received satisfactory evidence of the safety and effectiveness from organizations other than the CDC/FDA at this point.
Bae, do you think as a first responder, you might be required to get a vaccine? How will you know when you feel it is safe to do so?
happystuff
11-17-20, 11:27am
I think I will hold off on vaccinations until I've received satisfactory evidence of the safety and effectiveness from organizations other than the CDC/FDA at this point.
I agree.
Teacher Terry
11-17-20, 1:11pm
Bae, which organizations would carry weight with you?
ApatheticNoMore
11-17-20, 1:51pm
Some hypothesize the flu mist (flu vaccine) *might* provide some covid protection. I'm considering it. Problem is it won't help many of the more vulnerable as it's not recommended over 50 and the flu shot doesn't (it just protects against flu).
I've been sorting through what to do over the Holidays. I have been working through options that would be safe for meeting with relatives and friends that would be mostly outdoor dining and limited indoor contact with mask and no more than four people. I'm still working on how that would work, considering it's winter. I ran across an interesting proposal. A friend has a large lot with a fire pit and has offered an all outdoor celebration with bring your own food and beverage and social distancing and maybe mask. Four people and one of the group is immune compromised.
The rub is that the hosts recently acquired a rescue dog which they love dearly and they've mentioned it would be nice if friends could meet Fido. I am starting to picture dog going around to the group for petting and hand licking, like dogs tend to do. The issue is whether this defeats the intentions of it all as the dog goes from one person to the next. The thought is that I may go only if they leash dog or keep it separate. Too cautious?
happystuff
11-18-20, 11:53am
I've been sorting through what to do over the Holidays. I have been working through options that would be safe for meeting with relatives and friends that would be mostly outdoor dining and limited indoor contact with mask and no more than four people. I'm still working on how that would work, considering it's winter. I ran across an interesting proposal. A friend has a large lot with a fire pit and has offered an all outdoor celebration with bring your own food and beverage and social distancing and maybe mask. Four people and one of the group is immune compromised.
The rub is that the hosts recently acquired a rescue dog which they love dearly and they've mentioned it would be nice if friends could meet Fido. I am starting to picture dog going around to the group for petting and hand licking, like dogs tend to do. The issue is whether this defeats the intentions of it all as the dog goes from one person to the next. The thought is that I may go only if they leash dog or keep it separate. Too cautious?
While it sounds really wonderful, if there are a lot of people showing up and it is cold, I envision everyone standing around the fire pit - no social distancing. I would also worry about those you mentioned as immune compromised. And, yes, I agree with your assessment about the dog.
This is a tough one. Only you can decide how comfortable you will be with the risks as you know them for this situation. Good luck deciding!
IL gov got really pissy at a press conference when he was asked if HIS T’giving plans were going to change to be in line with the new restrictions for the state (don’t travel, stay home). Dude is a billionaire and has taken his private plan off to his family’s home in FL. He’s also gone off to his home in WI. Expects the rest of us to stay home when he won’t? Typical elite mindset.
He’s actually said he will be in Chicago for the holiday. Wife and kids in FL.
This is the same guy who had toilets ripped out of a mansion in Chicago so his property taxes would be reduced. He paid what he should have when it made the news. Typical Chicago politician.
I think I will hold off on vaccinations until I've received satisfactory evidence of the safety and effectiveness from organizations other than the CDC/FDA at this point.
An issue I have is that both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are mRNA vaccines that tell a cell's DNA to manufacture proteins that would stimulate the bodies immune response to Corona infections (my very basic understanding). There has never been an approved mRNA vaccine and it's made in a way totally different from other viral vaccines. The Pfizer vaccine trial period is what they are calling event defined, so that when they get to a certain number of infections, apparently 160 people, if the vaccinated group is being protected. I've not heard much about the longer safety of the vaccine or if there is a certain period when they can call it safe. I would like to learn more about the long term safety and any adverse effects, even if it is only theoretical at this time. The news focus has been more about effectiveness and less about safety although they are claiming the typical short term fever, fatigue, sore muscles, etc, but what about over time. The shingles vaccine pretty much put me out of action for several days. Although I wouldn't hesitate to get it again, but vaccines are not necessarily home free just based on effectiveness.
I suppose more time will tell and I would not be in the first group of health care people who would get the vaccine, but I would like some other to go first and to collect more information. I think there are scores of other vaccine trials using more traditional manufacturing methods, so maybe there will be more choices when the time comes. If I had the choice to get an mRNA vaccine today, I would probably go for it, but am still apprehensive.
catherine
11-18-20, 1:55pm
Having been in the pharmaceutical industry for 30 years, it's head-spinning to me how quickly these vaccines are getting approved. Yes, it's probably better than nothing, but I'm with bae. My comfort level is not quite there yet.
My conservative coworkers and customers were talking today about no one can make them take a vaccine (among other macho posturing topics including Trump really won, conservative judges will save us, there will be a war but we have the guns, we even have more guns than the US military). I anticipate a political divide on vaccination.
You watch my prediction will be correct that the government will try to force people to get vaccinated, refusing to lift restrictions and mask mandates until they do. First the government decided to commandeer our right to control one part of our bodies (faces), now it will move on to our arms (injection site).
ApatheticNoMore
11-18-20, 8:05pm
The pressure is more likely to be: IF mandates are lifted and one HAS to go to places without anyone wearing masks say, then people will feel they have little choice but to chance it on the covid vaccine or on covid. And uh the vaccine is likely the lower risk, probably though we may not be as certain about their safety as we like … but if we get down to unavoidable risks then yea.
My father's cousin just died from covid. Relatives are not surprised as she was in her 70's and refused to curtail her traveling despite the pandemic.
My father's cousin just died from covid. Relatives are not surprised as she was in her 70's and refused to curtail her traveling despite the pandemic.
I'm sorry to hear this. I wish no one had to get this news about a loved one. My condolences to you and your family.
rosarugosa
11-19-20, 6:24am
I'm sorry for the loss of your cousin, Jeppy.
My father's cousin just died from covid. Relatives are not surprised as she was in her 70's and refused to curtail her traveling despite the pandemic.
So sorry to hear.
I'm not a fan of unnecessary or excessive immunizations, and from what I gather the COVID vaccines they've developed so far have limited effectiveness, but it's a start. The paranoia out there would be funny if it weren't so pervasive.
I'm sorry you work with such a band of nutters, Yppej, and I'm sorry for your elderly relative who apparently believed this was a hoax/no worse than the flu.
My father's cousin just died from covid. Relatives are not surprised as she was in her 70's and refused to curtail her traveling despite the pandemic.
My condolences. I'm sorry to hear about that.
From what ever the news reports, the community spread fatalities or severe illness are almost always people who are not using simple common safety recommendations and are typically overweight, and then are regretful.
I'm not a fan of unnecessary or excessive immunizations, and from what I gather the COVID vaccines they've developed so far have limited effectiveness, but it's a start. The paranoia out there would be funny if it weren't so pervasive.
Moderna and Pfizer are reporting 90-95% effective. That doesn't seem limited?
JaneV2.0
11-19-20, 10:45am
Doesn't it remain to be seen how long vaccine-induced immunity lasts? People are contracting COVID for a second time even with natural immunity, which is kind of disheartening.
happystuff
11-19-20, 11:05am
Doesn't it remain to be seen how long vaccine-induced immunity lasts? People are contracting COVID for a second time even with natural immunity, which is kind of disheartening.
I thought this was to be expected? That this is sort of like the flu - you can get it more than once. Sorry, I don't know where I read it, but I thought Covid-19 was already exhibiting even slight mutations - again, like the flu.
JaneV2.0
11-19-20, 11:09am
I thought this was to be expected? That this is sort of like the flu - you can get it more than once. Sorry, I don't know where I read it, but I thought Covid-19 was already exhibiting even slight mutations - again, like the flu.
Supposedly, you're immune to strains of influenza you've already had--thus flu shots. It remains to be seen if we'll have to get COVID immunizations every few months, as it is so much more deadly than the flu.
happystuff
11-19-20, 11:29am
My father's cousin just died from covid. Relatives are not surprised as she was in her 70's and refused to curtail her traveling despite the pandemic.
Condolences to family and friends.
I thought this was to be expected? That this is sort of like the flu - you can get it more than once. Sorry, I don't know where I read it, but I thought Covid-19 was already exhibiting even slight mutations - again, like the flu.
The Corona virus is mutating. Does it matter...
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02544-6
Doesn't it remain to be seen how long vaccine-induced immunity lasts? People are contracting COVID for a second time even with natural immunity, which is kind of disheartening.
It has not been determined that "natural immunity" exists.
JaneV2.0
11-19-20, 12:08pm
It has not been determined that "natural immunity" exists.
At least not past a couple of weeks. Perhaps Trump should consider that, as the WH seems to be a hotbed of infection.
I'm glad new, more effective (and attractive) masks are being developed--we may be wearing them for the foreseeable future.
There is a common theory I've seen that they are calling the "swiss cheese" theory that relies on several things. If the virus gets through one level of protection (hole in the cheese I guess) it will be caught by the next. I think for the near future to get things under control it won't just be a vaccine, but a combination of vaccines, mask and social behavior, contact tracing, testing, and self isolation, etc. By the time us commoners get access to a vaccine we will probably have a lot more information to choose the right one or decide upon the various risks.
The multi-faceted approach seems to be the best one. Dr. Redfield (has he been fired yet?) said the best protection was a mask--even better than a vaccine. I think we'll all have to take multiple precautions including the vaccine when it becomes available, until COVID19 has gone the way of smallpox. By then we'll have another killer virus, I expect.
happystuff
11-19-20, 1:43pm
There is a common theory I've seen that they are calling the "swiss cheese" theory that relies on several things. If the virus gets through one level of protection (hole in the cheese I guess) it will be caught by the next. I think for the near future to get things under control it won't just be a vaccine, but a combination of vaccines, mask and social behavior, contact tracing, testing, and self isolation, etc. By the time us commoners get access to a vaccine we will probably have a lot more information to choose the right one or decide upon the various risks.
Yes, I agree with this. I know, personally, I'll be wearing a mask for quite a while into the foreseeable future.
ApatheticNoMore
11-19-20, 3:16pm
I might not be the first one to ask for a vaccine and regardless I'm not likely to be the first to qualify for one either, but if I got a vaccine with 94 - 95 % effectiveness, I don't think I'm wearing a mask anymore - at least if it means I'm not contagious either :)
Socially we should have gone for multiple approaches not just a rushed vaccine, mostly reducing (if not eliminating) spread, easily available fast testing, and therapeutics (the attention was not put on that, it's why we don't have the monoclonal antibodies in wide distribution for the sick now). We went for the hail mary technofix of vaccine or bust, mass death until vaccine (now let's do geoengineering). So yea the approach - we need our heads examined. But sure that technofix might save us this time (but of course it means the vaccine is somewhat rushed - if all you have is a hammer). Ever hear about how you shouldn't be like the marathoner who loses energy right before the finish line, that's the whole country now.
I'll wait to see how the vaccine works (and for how long) before I ditch the mask completely, but I'll probably maintain happy hermit mode for some time to come.
Thanks for the sympathies. I did not know this woman, maybe met her a couple times when I was a little kid that I don't remember. I am sorry for her husband and closer family though.
This still does not change my views. Rumors are my governor aka dictator will shut the state down again so I went for a haircut today while I still can.
A nurse friend of mine in New Mexico reports:
"3600+ positives today... we lost a 12 year old today.... highest rate of infection is age range 18-34..... highest death rate is for age range 80+.... It took us 7 days for last 10,000 positives, whereas first 10k positives took 93 days.... not good trends... young people are getting it and dying from it.... a vaccine cannot come soon enough and please Zoomsgiving not ICU for Christmas..."
It’s getting to be such bad and sad news that I can hardly watch it anymore. We are following a similar trajectory to the 1918 Spanish flu, sadly.
ApatheticNoMore
11-20-20, 1:39am
Ever hear about how you shouldn't be like the marathoner who loses energy right before the finish line, that's the whole country now.
including me as I maybe saw my bf before it would be smart to after that covid case at his work. It has been 5 days and a negative covid test for bf since the covid coworker was at work and since I previously saw bf (but the covid test was probably taken too soon to show anything).
JaneV2.0
11-20-20, 11:29am
Rachel Maddow (MSNBC host) is in quarantine at home because her partner has it. She's OK so far, but Susan was touch and go at one point. She made an understandably heartfelt plea to people to be very careful.
And then that quack Atlas went out and told everyone to go home to family and hug granny--because "she might not be here next year." Yeah--she won't if you have anything to say about it. Irresponsible is far too mild a word for him and his "herd immunity."
The multi-faceted approach seems to be the best one. Dr. Redfield (has he been fired yet?) said the best protection was a mask--even better than a vaccine.
This past summer I made several posts about how despite the mask mandate cases in California were exploding.
Now 37 states have mask mandates. New Hampshire put one in this week. Let's see if this does anything. I think not. If masks work with many more mandates in place than during the summer new cases and positivity rates should be going down. Instead they are going up. If masks work states with mandates should be outperforming states without. Instead things are getting worse nationwide. The mask policy is a failed policy. Better to follow RI governor Raimundo and tell people to stop socializing with anyone outside their household.
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