View Full Version : Conavirus......
frugal-one
11-20-20, 8:25pm
Hope Biden puts a countrywide mask mandate.
https://covid19risk.biosci.gatech.edu/
Thank you. This is very useful.
happystuff
11-21-20, 11:45am
This past summer I made several posts about how despite the mask mandate cases in California were exploding.
Now 37 states have mask mandates. New Hampshire put one in this week. Let's see if this does anything. I think not. If masks work with many more mandates in place than during the summer new cases and positivity rates should be going down. Instead they are going up. If masks work states with mandates should be outperforming states without. Instead things are getting worse nationwide. The mask policy is a failed policy. Better to follow RI governor Raimundo and tell people to stop socializing with anyone outside their household.
Have you read NOTHING these last few months? Masks alone DO HELP; they are not the cure! You are looking for something - anything - to blame for the inconveniences you are experiencing and "masks" seem to be it. I feel so sorry for you.
Teacher Terry
11-21-20, 2:47pm
During the 1918 Spanish flu some people wore masks because it helped. I am sure you had plenty of dissent also.
During the 1918 Spanish flu some people wore masks because it helped. I am sure you had plenty of dissent also.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
https://www.history.com/news/1918-spanish-flu-mask-wearing-resistance
And the noose tightens - my dictator will now only let me travel to Hawaii or Vermont without quarantining for 2 weeks. Businesses in border towns are suffering. There are no exceptions even for going to a supermarket that will be closer to home but over a line on the map. In his pseudoscience virus particles become active at 10 PM and once you see a "Welcome to [Adjacent State]" sign. Yet you can travel 4 1/2 hours from Provincetown to Williamstown and be legal. If he were governor of Texas you could travel over 800 miles across the state and be okay but not live life within your own community of Texarkana since it also straddles Arkansas. If like me you've been to Texarkana you'll get the analogy and see how ridiculous the situation has become.
iris lilies
11-21-20, 11:42pm
Jeppy we here in St. Louis, living on the line with Illinois, run into the same thing as well. Things are looser here in Missouri than they are in Illinois. Although my city is pretty tamped down and has been for quite a while since the beginning actually. But our restaurants haven’t been commanded to close yet. They are operating under limited capacity and are also providing outdoor dining options.
Meanwhile across the county line the restaurants are closed and restaurant owners are suing the government for that.
Jeppy, maybe you should move to Scott county Kansas, where my cousin-in-law is a teacher. They have the proud distinction of being #10 in The NY Times ‘counties with the highest number of recent cases’. You’ll like it. My cousin’s wife assures me that no one wears a god damn ****ing mask.
JaneV2.0
11-22-20, 11:18am
I'm glad to be living in a state where the governor gives a damn about something besides getting re-elected (he just was, easily) and sucking up to Trump. He's just initiated new guidelines, now that cases have spiked here. I save my respect for those governors, who, like Governor Whitmer, put the safety of their citizens ahead of politics--sometimes putting their own lives at risk to do so.
ApatheticNoMore
11-22-20, 12:27pm
The thing is that most places are none to eager for business restrictions at all (lives saved don't weight all that highly in the balance). HOWEVER, places that do them are often balancing an extreme reluctance to shut stuff down against limited healthcare capacity, and not wanting the hospitals to get overwhelmed, and since they are so reluctant to shut down and it's exponential growth it's a risky strategy this walking right up to the edge. Other places just let their hospitals get overwhelmed outright.
herbgeek
11-22-20, 12:30pm
There are no exceptions even for going to a supermarket that will be closer to home but over a line on the map.
Not true.
“Travelers are exempt from the requirements to fill out the Travel Form and self-quarantine or obtain a negative COVID-19 test result if their travel is limited to brief trips for purposes that the commissioner has designated as Critical Life Activities:
Grocery shopping
Visits to pharmacies <snipped>
Thanks Herbgeek. I was sure that was the case but since Yppej blocked me I didn’t bother looking it up.
Here is some truth telling about sensationalist media stories about there being so many covid deaths there is no room for the bodies in the morgue.
One story about one city (El Paso) was played repeatedly over a week. No one stopped to comment that it is an outlier because it is near the border and people who want better care than they can get in Mexico come here. My uncle worked at a hospital in southern California and the same influx happened pre-pandemic with women giving birth.
In my own state one of our outside salesmen told me when he visited a hospital there were refrigerated trucks in the parking lot for covid victims not because there are so many bodies they cannot be accommodated by local funeral homes but because these are foreign nationals whose families want to bring them home for burial but haven't come up with the money yet due to a financial crisis caused by lockdowns. The first week there were a bunch of Brazilians, the following week a bunch of Haitians.
The media can't relay the whole story in sound bites, nor do they want to. Sensationalism and panic sell better.
happystuff
11-28-20, 12:01pm
So many spikes going on. Just sending out prayers and positive energies to everyone for health and safety.
Teacher Terry
11-28-20, 12:05pm
Our coroner has warned that the funeral homes are filling up and overflow spaces at the county building are being used. We aren’t as bad as some parts of the country. This is real. When my stepson’s mom died in August it took 2 weeks for them to cremate her because they were so busy.
JaneV2.0
11-28-20, 12:20pm
Pretty convincing hoax, I'd say. :help:
Pretty convincing hoax, I'd say. :help:
I learned on facebook yesterday that the expiration date of the hoax has been pushed back from November 4th to January 20th now.
My mom who has several underlying conditions and walks daily has been trying to follow the new law to wear masks in public even if not around others. She gets dizzy and almost passes out. Yet I notice college and professional athletes do not have to wear masks during games. When they win they do group hugs sans mask. This elitism, which says the rules only apply to the little people, is another reason I hate the stupid mask mandates.
ETA There are regular news reports of infected players, I guess elites can get covid too, but they still don't have to wear masks.
ApatheticNoMore
11-28-20, 12:54pm
Yet I notice college and professional athletes do not have to wear masks during games. When they win they do group hugs sans mask. This elitism, which says the rules only apply to the little people, is another reason I hate the stupid mask mandates.
They have regular testing, sports teams have regular testing, often time bubbles, whole procedures to control covid, to allow professional sports to go on. Come on, EVERYONE has heard of that. So in no way can you compare that to social situations where none of that exists. It's apples and oranges and you see elitism when it simply isn't there. I mean fine feel free to make the case that "noone needs to watch sports" but whatever.
Here is some truth telling about sensationalist media stories about there being so many covid deaths there is no room for the bodies in the morgue...
The media can't relay the whole story in sound bites, nor do they want to. Sensationalism and panic sell better.
I have family friends who are funeral directors in my home town, so have watched their obituaries for years. There has maybe been a slight uptick in reported obituaries but nothing remarkable. I suspect as much as sensationalism, there is some truth to the stories in areas whose leaders and/or residents consider mask, social distancing, and other safe behavior a personal liberty.
Herman Cain and Ben Carson went to non-distanced events without masks. One of them will tell you he almost died as a result. The other isn’t saying anything about it these days.
Herman Cain and Ben Carson went to non-distanced events without masks. One of them will tell you he almost died as a result. The other isn’t saying anything about it these days.
Both of these men served their country honorably, and I am grateful for what they did. May Mr. Cain rest in peace, and may Dr. Carson go on to have a long and happy life.
Teacher Terry
11-28-20, 4:17pm
Chris Christie admits he was foolish for going to the event and admitted he almost died. Powerful people have access to treatment and medication that we don’t and they get the best care.
happystuff
11-28-20, 4:38pm
Chris Christie admits he was foolish for going to the event and admitted he almost died. Powerful people have access to treatment and medication that we don’t and they get the best care.
People with the money and resources will always get the best care they can; in my opinion, national healthcare would hopefully give the rest of us a fighting chance.
Pretty convincing hoax, I'd say. :help:
Sure fooled me when I was loading COVID patients onto transport the past week. Bet it was just the flu...
ApatheticNoMore
11-28-20, 4:48pm
It's why I really don't get complaining about whether well known people are flouting the rules. They may well have access to healthcare you don't, certainly Trump and Chris Christie did. You will be told to go home and wait until you can't breathe before you can be admitted to the hospital (and that's assuming hospitals AREN'T overwhelmed locally)
And even if such well known people don't get better healthcare, do you think they are going to shed tears when you and the people you care about and ordinary people you may have contact with get sick because you didn't protect yourself (and others) because "the governor or the mayor or a celebrity was doing this or that". Yea, they don't care about you that much, you have to care about you. I mean if you try to protect yourself and still get sick that's just unfortunate, some people's circumstances make them likely to catch it, with this much spread it's hard to avoid, but no reason to want to get sick.
There are those setting good examples like Fauci not seeing family this thanksgiving, but politicians and so on that don't, well I'd vote them out but there has to be someone better challenging them not someone worse. It's not a litmus test.
happystuff
11-28-20, 4:53pm
Sure fooled me when I was loading COVID patients onto transport the past week. Bet it was just the flu...
Don't know if I ever said this before, but thank you for all you do, bae. You most certainly make a positive difference in the world.
dado potato
11-28-20, 6:23pm
Hospitals in Wisconsin are nearing capacity for beds and staff equipped to treat COVID-19.
So, (as Aspirus Hospital in Wausau announced on 11/19/2020) some COVID-19 patients will be sent home "to keep our beds available for the sickest of the sick". The homecare patients will have telehealth care from the hospital, and it is presumed that care will be provided by patients' family members at home.
If only we could see a study that compares similar places with mask mandates and without them to see if the masks actually work. Then maybe we could stop having silly factless based arguments about them.
The CDC and the Kansas Department of Health and Environment analyzed trends in county-level cases before the mandate went into effect and two months afterward. Though rates were considerably higher in the 24 counties that required masks, over the two-month study period they brought the growth of cases under control and even reduced them. The counties that didn't require masks continued to see their cases increase.
On average, the counties that required masks saw a 6% reduction in cases (calculated as a seven-day rolling average of new daily cases per capita). In contrast, the counties that opted out saw a 100% increase.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/11/23/937173060/mask-mandates-work-to-slow-spread-of-coronavirus-kansas-study-finds?utm_medium=social&utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=npr
Tried again to get my mother to let me pick up groceries for her and my dad. She refused. They are no longer going for senior hour because it is still dark that early with the days being shorter. Now she insists on going at 9 AM when I am at work because that is when the quick sale discounted produce comes out.
frugal-one
11-30-20, 9:12pm
Buy her a mask and a face shield. Wearing both should offer protection. That's the best you can do.
ApatheticNoMore
12-1-20, 12:42am
I don't stress about my mom going to the grocery store anymore as realistically noone can stay at home 8 months, it's too hard, too cruel and unusual, it approaches solitary confinement. I didn't know we'd have 8 MONTHS of this stuff, that was inconceivable to me early on, and hey if we were one of the well run countries we wouldn't, but nope we do.
I just wish my mom would have pizza delivered rather than pick it up because everyone else on earth does even with NO covid, and she won't even in a time of covid. I wish she'd use the credit card instead of going in to pay for gas etc.. But I haven't won this battle, actually I never win any battle trying to influence almost anyone I know, like anyone cares what I think :)
I’m giving up on convincing anyone of anything related to covid. For a while I tried. Then I realized that most people know, and if they don’t, it’s not that hard to find out.
I can only take cate of myself. For the ones who ask, I make an effort. Otherwise I’ve bowed out. Both online and IRL.
Apathetic, I wish I had a suggestion for what to do. My dad was a hermit during his last years. But not being able to even go around the assisted living facility to chat with his friends (and outside to have a smoke from time to time) would have been tough for him. He died six years ago and sadly I am grateful about that given where we are now.
gimmethesimplelife
12-1-20, 1:15pm
I don't remember if I have posted this here.....I am on the Pfizer trial in Phoenix. $465 in my savings account thus far and no side effects.....though it's 50/50 I'm getting the vaccine vs the placebo. I'm having hope for these vaccines. Rob
Simplemind
12-1-20, 1:22pm
Wow Rob, that's great.
I had a zoom meeting with two old friends who have moved out of town and I've not "talked" with for some time. They didn't travel to see family over Thanksgiving because of Covid concerns, but planned to travel for Christmas. I wonder if that will be the case for a lot of people.
I was up in Madison, WI and SW Wisconsin (near Platteville) for the holiday weekend - cave diving class at a former mine.
Stayed in Middleton. Hotel was very empty. Didn’t eat at any restaurants. McD and Culver’s drive thru. Kwik Trip. Was inside at Madison dive shop but we all wore masks and sat far apart when we did classroom time. I did eat dinner while we were doing classroom time, but was 10ft away from the others.
At the mine we were out in the country. Kept our distance outside of the water.
Chatted with a friend my age. Her grandmother is still alive and going all over the place, she can't convince her to stay home.
My mother's latest is she has lived long enough and doesn't care if she dies.
The news has many stories about vaccines, but I am not hearing anything about once you are vaccinated with your second dose you don't need to wear a mask anymore, though that seems like common sense.
The news has many stories about vaccines, but I am not hearing anything about once you are vaccinated with your second dose you don't need to wear a mask anymore, though that seems like common sense.
If we could trust people not to lie about having been vaccinated that might be the case. But since we have learned over the last nine months that there are a lot of Americans who have no problem with putting other people’s lives at risk it would never work.
It doesn’t make sense. If vaccinated you still can carry covid germs. Your body fights it off and you won’t know. But you could spread it. So until nearly everyone is vaccinated we should still mask.
Lots of the above is unknown for sure but that’s the best practice.
Masks for most 2021.
I know Yppej blocked me but I want the rest of you to know so you can protect yourselves and others.
The news has many stories about vaccines, but I am not hearing anything about once you are vaccinated with your second dose you don't need to wear a mask anymore, though that seems like common sense.
Gosh, maybe you could look at the real recommendations.
iris lilies
12-6-20, 10:09pm
How does this mask requirement for Kansas City MO make any sense? I thought maybe the newspaper got it wrong, but their reporting is correct for ST Louis city and St Louis County.
People in Kansas City are required to wear a mask inside their own home if more than one person is present. !!! Ummm, is ANYONE following that? I would think even the most stringent mask Nazi would find that over the top.
https://themissouritimes.com/where-are-masks-required-in-missouri/
Kansas City
Kansas City Mayor Quinton Lucas announced a Safer at Home plan (https://www.kcmo.gov/Home/Components/News/News/1482/625) for his city on Nov. 16. Individuals are required to wear masks indoors when more than one person is present and outside whenever social distancing cannot occur.
I think if you drill down to the fine print of the KC order, you will find that the masks-indoors clause says:
“All Kansas Citians must wear a face covering or mask while indoors in any room, partition, or area where someone from another household is present.“
So it doesn’t appear that you need to wear a mask in your home to be in the same room with your spouse.
Doesn’t make as fun a headline though.
Teacher Terry
12-6-20, 11:45pm
It only makes sense if the other person doesn’t live with you.
I think if you drill down to the fine print of the KC order, you will find that the masks-indoors clause says:
“All Kansas Citians must wear a face covering or mask while indoors in any room, partition, or area where someone from another household is present.“
So it doesn’t appear that you need to wear a mask in your home to be in the same room with your spouse.
Doesn’t make as fun a headline though.
So it is basically the same as my thought when we moved. We had movers in our old apartment and later in the day our new house. We mostly tried to stay outside, but when we were inside with the movers we wore masks.
This sounds like just another alarmest story like a particular friend of mine on facebook has repeatedly posted. All about how the government is "trying to control you". Yawn. If people would actually wear their f'ing masks as if they cared about other people then specific rules like this wouldn't need to be created. But as yppeg has shown repeatedly, some people have no interest in actually taking responsibility for the health and safety of others, so here we are. Yay freedumb.
Here's a scenario. Spouse #1 lives in Nevada and is retired, over 60 and thus higher risk. Spouse #2 works in California and stays there overnights, returning to Nevada periodically to visit Spouse #1. Should the spouses wear masks around each other at home to protect Spouse #1?
What if Spouse #1 engages in high risk activities with friends such as hosting indoor card games and going out to eat in restaurants? In that case does Spouse #1 still need to be protected from Spouse #2?
Here's a scenario. Spouse #1 lives in Nevada and is retired, over 60 and thus higher risk. Spouse #2 works in California and stays there overnights, returning to Nevada periodically to visit Spouse #1. Should the spouses wear masks around each other at home to protect Spouse #1?
What if Spouse #1 engages in high risk activities with friends such as hosting indoor card games and going out to eat in restaurants? In that case does Spouse #1 still need to be protected from Spouse #2?
Practically speaking, I think it's unlikely for spouses in their own homes to mask up. In your example, I think the people will just need to assume a higher likelihood of getting Covid and exposing others to it, or change their lifestyles. It's a potentially dangerous game of odds.
iris lilies
12-7-20, 10:03am
I think if you drill down to the fine print of the KC order, you will find that the masks-indoors clause says:
“All Kansas Citians must wear a face covering or mask while indoors in any room, partition, or area where someone from another household is present.“
So it doesn’t appear that you need to wear a mask in your home to be in the same room with your spouse.
Doesn’t make as fun a headline though.
Ah, thank you for finding the sense of the order.
happystuff
12-7-20, 3:09pm
Here's a scenario. Spouse #1 lives in Nevada and is retired, over 60 and thus higher risk. Spouse #2 works in California and stays there overnights, returning to Nevada periodically to visit Spouse #1. Should the spouses wear masks around each other at home to protect Spouse #1?
What if Spouse #1 engages in high risk activities with friends such as hosting indoor card games and going out to eat in restaurants? In that case does Spouse #1 still need to be protected from Spouse #2?
Number 1, it is irresponsible for spouse 1 to be engaging in high risk activities if spouse 2 is a high risk - maybe they need to examine their relationship.
I have a sibling with an extremely high risk spouse and there was a point where there was a possibility of positive covid, so they masked in the same house and also social distanced in the same house until it was confirmed both did not have covid. Again, the idea is to keep not only yourself safe, but also others.
Here's a scenario.
Don't be foolish.
Practically speaking, I think it's unlikely for spouses in their own homes to mask up.
I have known some couples to do so, when one spouse had to travel for essential reasons. Typically they have in-home quarantined separately from their spouse, and used a mask when traversing common spaces and observed distancing.
Then again, my friends tend to be scientists, engineers, or medical professionals...
ApatheticNoMore
12-7-20, 4:36pm
I see my boyfriend without a mask and we don't live in the same house. don't like it? too bad.
Teacher Terry
12-7-20, 5:01pm
Y is talking about us. My husband worked in California outside for 3 weeks. I did eat at outside restaurants and play cards with 2 others inside for a few months this summer when cases were down with 2 retired friends. When numbers increased we all went into lockdown again. Considering that my friend that was dead in days of getting the virus totally isolated for 8 months except for a occasional grocery trip I am glad I had a little fun in case I die. His wife said that they didn’t even think about having groceries delivered but is now. My friend didn’t see his kids or grandchildren for that entire time. Obviously based on Y’s moral judgement he deserved to die for going to the grocery store.
I see my boyfriend without a mask and we don't live in the same house. don't like it? too bad.
I see my girlfriend without a mask as well, and we don't live in the same household. Heck, she even lives on a different islands.
However, we *have* joined our houses together as a virtual pod, and don't interact with other people in unsafe ways. So it is in essence as if we lived in one home, it's just that the hallway between our different parts of the house involves 10 miles of ocean to cross.
There is some discussion and guidance in the literature about constructing pods...
iris lilies
12-7-20, 10:08pm
Y is talking about us. My husband worked in California outside for 3 weeks. I did eat at outside restaurants and play cards with 2 others inside for a few months this summer when cases were down with 2 retired friends. When numbers increased we all went into lockdown again. Considering that my friend that was dead in days of getting the virus totally isolated for 8 months except for a occasional grocery trip I am glad I had a little fun in case I die. His wife said that they didn’t even think about having groceries delivered but is now. My friend didn’t see his kids or grandchildren for that entire time. Obviously based on Y’s moral judgement he deserved to die for going to the grocery store.
How did he get it do,you suppose? These tales are so harrowing of people who are careful.
I am always suspicious of people who say they only go to the grocery store. Have you been walking there for 9 months? Or did you go to the gas station too? The pharmacy? The post office? The doctor's or dentist's office? People downplay what they do.
Teacher Terry
12-7-20, 10:25pm
IL I have known this couple for years. He must have gotten it at the grocery store or getting gas. Ironically he went there because his wife took too much time and he was faster at getting in and out. He was protecting her. She got it also but it barely affected her.
This approach makes the most sense to me - harm reduction
https://apple.news/ALNLXnZcnT82PkpXkjn5Bow
Teacher Terry
12-8-20, 11:13am
It makes sense to me too. California has great weather in many places to allow outdoor dining, exercising, etc. It’s particularly difficult for people that live alone. Today will be sunny and 55 so my kids will come over and we will be outside wearing masks and staying 6 ft apart. They go nowhere except for walks. They enter through the side gate. We do this weekly and also have a patio heater. One day we lasted 2 hours and on thanksgiving only 20 minutes because it was so cold.
I saw on the news the vaccines may be free, but doctors can charge to inject you. A doctor's visit costs me over $100 until I meet my deductible and I have better insurance than most. How many people are going to rush to get vaccinated when there are out of pocket costs? If the vaccine is rolled out in the first quarter of next year most will not have met their deductibles.
I saw on the news the vaccines may be free, but doctors can charge to inject you. A doctor's visit costs me over $100 until I meet my deductible and I have better insurance than most. How many people are going to rush to get vaccinated when there are out of pocket costs? If the vaccine is rolled out in the first quarter of next year most will not have met their deductibles.
I picture the vaccine being available at drive throughs or the local supermarket or big box pharmacy much like the flu shot.
My doc tried to charge me for administering a shot a year or two ago. Insurance denied the charge and I never got billed.
ApatheticNoMore
12-8-20, 8:40pm
This approach makes the most sense to me - harm reduction
https://apple.news/ALNLXnZcnT82PkpXkjn5Bow
people aren't stupid either. Seeing others outside your household is variously illegal or not illegal but highly advised against (it's almost never not one or the other - 9 months anyone living alone was supposed to go without almost all human contact and stare at happy graphics of a nuclear families with 2.5 kids and a dog as the only acceptable human contact) unless … MONEY CHANGES HANDS ding ding ding.
So seeing people outside your household indoors or outdoors was banned during the same period where indoor restaurants and bars were legal! Oh yea socializing in a park sure is more dangerous than a bar. Seeing others outside was advised against when outside dining was legal. A fool can see what is going on here and it's NOT public health, it's all about the Benjamin$. Then sometimes their message is literally everyone should sacrifice all social contact IN ORDER to keep businesses open. Sheesh this martyr on the alter of capitalism message is really not going to work (even though everyone does get we are in a world of economic hurt). I would have put money on they weren't going to close shops until after black Friday no matter how bad it got. What do I win?
Like I said seeing my boyfriend is almost always advised against and outright illegal half the time. He's the only person I see indoors other than when I shop. I work from home during this pandemic. He works in a masked office and I acknowledge the risk, and doesn't see anyone else indoors except at the office and shopping either. Visiting people outside distanced is always advised against and outright illegal half the time as well.
A lot of people are struggling, if they're not going under for the third time. They can't afford injection charges.
IMO, employers of essential workers should provide shots and masks to all.
I’ve only ever gone to the doc for a vaccination if I was already going to the doc so I’ve no idea if he would attempt to charge me. I just put my flat $20 copay for the visit. When I’ve need one otherwise I’ve gone to a pharmacy like walgreeens or at the grocery store. Safeway here has signs all over saying ‘get your free* flu shot with an * at the bottom saying ‘with most insurance’. I assume they will do the same once they have covid vaccine.
I’ve only ever gone to the doc for a vaccination if I was already going to the doc so I’ve no idea if he would attempt to charge me. I just put my flat $20 copay for the visit. When I’ve need one otherwise I’ve gone to a pharmacy like walgreeens or at the grocery store. Safeway here has signs all over saying ‘get your free* flu shot with an * at the bottom saying ‘with most insurance’. I assume they will do the same once they have covid vaccine.
Same here. I’ve gotten flu shot at Walgreens or the grocery store pharmacy for years. Got both doses of shingles vaccine that way, too. I expect those same places will be distributing the covid vaccine. Much more efficient and accessible than doctors’ offices.
I looked into pricing for the shingrix shots before I got them because it wasn’t clear if the aca rules meant that they’d be fully covered. It ended up being cheapest to just go to the doc and pay the copay. Costco and walgreens were both going to charge over $100 for the two shots. Two $20 copays at doc was the best deal.
I just don’t get people.
A friend in his mid 20s lives at home with parents and younger sibs still in high school. Grandpa lives with the family and is high risk due to age and some medical conditions. All work from home/do online school. Friend’s sister and her VERY compromised immune system boyfriend are driving in from FL for Christmas. Friend was supposed to go diving with me this weekend but cancelled due to the sister’s BF coming in for Christmas. Outside activity. Social distanced above water. Can’t pass it underwater. “We have to be very careful,” he told me. I asked him what about very at risk people NOT traveling? How is this a good idea?
iris lilies
12-9-20, 9:29am
In the past year I’ve been a good Doobie and got so many of those shots you’re supposed to have. Granted I haven’t gotten this year’s flu shot. I just go to the Little pharmacy in Hermann, Missouri and insurance pays, fine, and if they don’t pay that’s fine too. The shingles shot was so important that I didn’t care if Insurance covered it, and it didn’t.
As far as pandemic travel, I’ve said it before here and I’m gonna say it again: the adamant mask wearers and blue political ticket voters are still traveling across the country. For pleasure. I simply do not understand it.
last last summer I was vaguely planning a trip in a car and thought of all the ways that I could avoid going into food stores and etc. But in the end it was just too much trouble. But I am not a blue ticket voter. It just seems incredibly hypocritical to me to be lecturing the world about pandemic behavior while traveling across the country in pleasure trips.
It shouldn't be a political issue--why is it?
All the blue voters I know have been very, very careful and are not traveling. It seems all the rabid anti-maskers are militantly red, but that's just my impression.
A Chicago alderman owns a well known restaurant (Ann Sathers) on the night side. A blog broke the news that he had been allowing a small number of regulars to dine inside. That has been forbidden in Chicago since sometime in October. He’s looking at a minimum of a $10K fine. He seems to have reluctantly apologized.
Teacher Terry
12-9-20, 11:39am
I don’t care if my insurance pays for the vaccine or not but I am getting it as soon as I can. We miss travel so much.
It shouldn't be a political issue--why is it?
All the blue voters I know have been very, very careful and are not traveling. It seems all the rabid anti-maskers are militantly red, but that's just my impression.
Why is it a political issue? Because so many of you break everything down to blue and red.
I'll get the vaccine, but I'm skeptical of its lasting efficacy. So what about the 40% of people who won't get it?
Why is it a political issue? Because so many of you break everything down to blue and red.
I don't think that explains it. How did it get to be an issue over which we are divided? I think you have to blame Trump, who early on decided he wasn't going to wear a mask, so I guess that made it political. But why would so many risk their own health to prove a point?
Why is it a political issue? Because so many of you break everything down to blue and red.
Covid became a political issue the day Trump said it was a hoax or that it would just go away and his followers believed it. I don't think we concocted it here and my interpretation of the common news reports is that it has been politicized. I'm not even sure how to categorize those who think mask mandates or other social distancing are an interference of individual liberties and dumb, but I suspect that can be defined by political leanings, and theoretically could affect my health and well being.
Anecdotally, my circle of acquaintances comes from across the political spectrum. I think just in the past couple of months everyone has been more cautious, but previously there were general differences in the definition of "safe behaviour" strongly related to political leanings.
But, we're beating a dead horse.
happystuff
12-9-20, 12:40pm
Why is it a political issue? Because so many of you break everything down to blue and red.
Yup, it's always the "other" guy. ;)
iris lilies
12-9-20, 1:28pm
I don't think that explains it. How did it get to be an issue over which we are divided? I think you have to blame Trump, who early on decided he wasn't going to wear a mask, so I guess that made it political. But why would so many risk their own health to prove a point?
We dont HAVE to blame Trump. You do you, though Carry on.
We dont HAVE to blame Trump. You do you, though Carry on.
For God's sake--he said it was a hoax when he knew full well that it was an airborne, often fatal disease (see Woodward, Rage). And that was only the beginning. I don't blame Trump for the existence of the virus, but for his disastrous, dishonest response and the resulting hundreds of thousands of casualties. Leaders should take responsibility.
frugal-one
12-9-20, 4:16pm
It shouldn't be a political issue--why is it?
All the blue voters I know have been very, very careful and are not traveling. It seems all the rabid anti-maskers are militantly red, but that's just my impression.
Same here. The only people we see who are not wearing masks are trumpers. It is beyond stupid.
Same here. The only people we see who are not wearing masks are trumpers. It is beyond stupid.
How do you know the only people not wearing masks are trumpers? Because they aren’t wearing masks?
frugal-one
12-9-20, 4:25pm
We dont HAVE to blame Trump. You do you, though Carry on.
trump IS to blame. Even now he is planning large Christmas parties at the White House and based on previous behavior you can be sure there will be no masks. How many times have you seen him in a mask? I can count on one hand. Those who follow him do as he does. As he said, this is a hoax.
I also blame trump for the lack of availability of vaccinations. See Wisconsin is to get 49,725 doses and we have over 450,000 health care workers. That will go far. Remember this later. He was asked and he declined to get more. Now all is parceled out to other countries. He definitely dropped the ball.
frugal-one
12-9-20, 4:29pm
How do you know the only people not wearing masks are trumpers? Because they aren’t wearing masks?
When they tell you it is a hoax and their political right to now wear a mask.
Recently met 2 guys and went around them. Asked me what was the problem and that was their response.
frugal-one
12-9-20, 4:35pm
We dont HAVE to blame Trump. You do you, though Carry on.
trump IS to blame. Even now he is planning large Christmas parties at the White House and based on previous behavior you can be sure there will be no masks. How many times have you seen him in a mask? I can count on one hand. Those who follow him do as he does. As he said, this is a hoax.
I also blame trump for the lack of availability of vaccinations. See Wisconsin is to get 49,725 doses and we have over 450,000 health care workers. That will go far. Remember this later. He was asked and he declined to get more. Now all is parceled out to other countries. He definitely dropped the ball.
How do you know the only people not wearing masks are trumpers? Because they aren’t wearing masks?
All one needs to do is look at pictures of the crowds at any trump super spreader rally compared to the Biden victory speech crowds.
Or pictures from the crowd at the republican convention this summer. There's literally like only half a dozen people wearing masks there and there's nothing socially distanced about anyone.
3523
All one needs to do is look at pictures of the crowds at any trump super spreader rally compared to the Biden victory speech crowds.So by that reasoning, these are all right wing, deplorable Trumpers?
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/gavin-newsom-dinner-party-01.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=1024
You won't find me defending what newsome and crew did. Or defending Denver Mayor Hancock telling people to stay home for thanksgiving while he went to Mississippi. We can all find plenty of hypocrisy wherever we want to look. And if you want to pretend that there isn't a partisan divide about mask wearing and public health recommendations that's your choice. But we all know trump was calling covid a hoax, and mocking masks and the people who wear them, including mocking Laura Ingraham who was attending one of his rallies. If you don't think that turned it into a partisan issue than I suppose it's possible you also don't think that he caused a partisan split of who the majority of in person voters were versus voting by mail.
You won't find me defending what newsome and crew did.
Do you mean to say those are not rabid right wing Trumpers defying common sense health precautions and contributing to Trump's desire to infect as many people as possible in the picture? How can the rest of us tell?
So by that reasoning, these are all right wing, deplorable Trumpers?
Looks like a nice bunch to me. Were they following local or CDC guidelines at the time?
Looks like a nice bunch to me. I'm sure they are, not a MAGA hat in sight. But I've been led to believe that anyone not wearing a mask or social distancing are undoubtedly right wing, deplorable Covid hoaxers, usually residing in red states. But I'm not so sure.....
ApatheticNoMore
12-9-20, 6:12pm
Trump undermining coronavirus response was a lot more fundamental than just being a hypocrite. It's not like we had Trump warning everyone of the coronavirus threat and planning actively to handle it, while secretly sneaking around without a mask or something. Rather we had him playing political games with ventilator supply and twittering to undermine state government response to the pandemic etc.. Those are nowhere near in the same league. It's robbing a bank versus stealing a pencil from work.
Hypocrisy is a trumped up charge if ever there was one, a ridiculously overblown sin if ever there was one, a sin for 5 year olds to point fingers about. By the way, I'd vote against Newsome, if someone better runs, I just don't expect better to come from the Republicans but with CA jungle primaries it doesn't have to, he's just not expected to be challenged.
frugal-one
12-9-20, 6:38pm
I'm sure they are, not a MAGA hat in sight. But I've been led to believe that anyone not wearing a mask or social distancing are undoubtedly right wing, deplorable Covid hoaxers, usually residing in red states. But I'm not so sure.....
Here you go with the red again.....
Here you go with the red again.....You haven't been following me, I only mentioned red states because most of you keep bringing it up, I thought that was obvious in the "I've been led to believe" part.
frugal-one
12-9-20, 6:46pm
You haven't been following me, I only mentioned red states because most of you keep bringing it up, I thought that was obvious in the "I've been led to believe" part.
You keep bringing it up....
Pitting states against each other, having feds bid for PPE and then parceling it out by state party affiliation, sending ventilators abroad, neglecting to take advantage of emergency appropriations...Distribution was an endless cluster*. Incompetence, petulance, or a combination of both?
You keep bringing it up....Oh? I thought I was just responding to it. Silly me.....
Do you mean to say those are not rabid right wing Trumpers defying common sense health precautions and contributing to Trump's desire to infect as many people as possible in the picture? How can the rest of us tell?
They're at a private event, and depending on one's definition of outdoor dining they were technically following the guidelines.* They also weren't going on tv or twitter or on stage at a public event mocking mask wearers.
*personally you wouldn't catch me eating in a space with walls on 3 sides, nor would you find me dining with anywhere near that many people regardless of the guidelines, but that's because I REALLY don't want to bring this into my home. I live with an overweight, prediabetic, hypertensive cancer survivor.
happystuff
12-10-20, 2:02pm
Oh? I thought I was just responding to it. Silly me.....
Come on, Alan, you feed right into it along with the others here. LOL. Don't condemn them when you do the same thing.
And, yes, I add my share. :~)
I saw on the evening news an answer to a question I have, if you get the vaccine can you still catch the virus and transmit it to others?
The medical "expert" said it is only 95% effective so you still need to wear a mask. What a moron! People are going to get a vaccine if they believe it will return our country to normalcy, not so they can continue wearing a mask for the rest of their lives. Already lots of people are leery of the vaccine - this type of irresponsible commentary will just drive the number of people willing to get the shot even lower. No vaccine will ever be 100% effective. 95% is pretty damn good.
What a moron!
Well, someone is, that's for sure.
I saw on the evening news an answer to a question I have, if you get the vaccine can you still catch the virus and transmit it to others?
The medical "expert" said it is only 95% effective so you still need to wear a mask. What a moron! People are going to get a vaccine if they believe it will return our country to normalcy, not so they can continue wearing a mask for the rest of their lives. Already lots of people are leery of the vaccine - this type of irresponsible commentary will just drive the number of people willing to get the shot even lower. No vaccine will ever be 100% effective. 95% is pretty damn good.
I suppose if one wants to take a 1 in 20 chance that the vaccine won't protect them if they get exposed to the virus, sure, skip the mask. But until a sizable majority of the population has been vaccinated and infection rates drop significantly I'll keep wearing my mask because the vaccine and the mask are two separate layers of protection as long as the virus is still out there in sizable numbers of people.
And yes, if enough people get vaccinated and it works well enough we'll achieve a 100%, or darn near 100%, elimination of the virus. When's the last time anyone got smallpox? Enough decades ago that we don't even get vaccinated for it anymore because it has not existed anywhere in the world for that long.
I saw on the evening news an answer to a question I have, if you get the vaccine can you still catch the virus and transmit it to others?
The medical "expert" said it is only 95% effective so you still need to wear a mask. What a moron! People are going to get a vaccine if they believe it will return our country to normalcy, not so they can continue wearing a mask for the rest of their lives. Already lots of people are leery of the vaccine - this type of irresponsible commentary will just drive the number of people willing to get the shot even lower. No vaccine will ever be 100% effective. 95% is pretty damn good.
He was quite correct and answered the question according to scientific knowledge.
People are going to get the vaccine to prevent death or compromised health in order to enjoy their families, earn a living and return to favourite activities. 95% is not a guarantee but an average, I believe.
Using a mask, IMHO, is the most loving activity to protect each other and ourselves, reduce the death rate and ensure a return to some degree of normalcy for everyone.
Razz I differ from you in that I do not consider wearing a mask normalcy.
I suppose if one wants to take a 1 in 20 chance that the vaccine won't protect them if they get exposed to the virus, sure, skip the mask.
One might also say: "Gee, there's a 1/20 chance my vaccine didn't take, and there's a good chance I could catch covid and be asymptomatic and be able to infect others", why then, one might also decide "Gee, I don't want to kill my neighbors, maybe I'll still wear a mask for some time....".
Of course, then you'd have to have empathy for others, which seems to be in short supply.
Razz I differ from you in that I do not consider wearing a mask normalcy.
Before COVID, I burned through a couple N95 masks a day on 911 calls, just to make sure a) I didn't give some patient a developing cold or flu and b) I didn't catch the Cooties from a patient.
I plan on wearing an N95 for some time to come, even after vaccination. (Then again, I respond to all sorts of fun infectious disease calls in the field, including Ebola, so what do I know?)
One might also say: "Gee, there's a 1/20 chance my vaccine didn't take, and there's a good chance I could catch covid and be asymptomatic and be able to infect others", why then, one might also decide "Gee, I don't want to kill my neighbors, maybe I'll still wear a mask for some time....".
Of course, then you'd have to have empathy for others, which seems to be in short supply.
Yes, there’s that too. But if I’ve learned anything from our covid life it’s that there’s an appalling number of Americans who lack empathy or concern for the safety and health of others.
Yes, there’s that too. But if I’ve learned anything from our covid life it’s that there’s an appalling number of Americans who lack empathy or concern for the safety and health of others.
Yes. This has been a big morale problem for me, in that I am reevaluating my cheerful zest for risking life and limb to aid others.
I understand your thinking Bae. I spent the first few months of my covid infection wanting to get better fast and return to the frontlines. Now I’m glad for the ability to protect myself at home as long as I need to, even though I couldn’t work yet even if I wanted to. My emotions are conflicted. But the more I watch people make stupid decisions the less I want to risk myself to help them.
My emotions are conflicted. But the more I watch people make stupid decisions the less I want to risk myself to help them.
Right.
My pager goes off for an address that is a known AirBnB address, while we aren't suppose to be having non-essential travel, for some lame-ass medical problem, in a time period that I'm not on assured-response duty, well, I turn off the pager.
Sorry.
I am triaging.
ApatheticNoMore
12-11-20, 2:37am
Meanwhile under a massive caseload, our public health department is screaming at us about ... wearing masks outdoors. Oh yea I'm sure that's what causing it, sure going to get bang for your buck in reducing transmission there. (of course the caveat is yes if the area is SUPER dense to the point where you can't distance, wear masks, if you have to go to a protest or something outdoors wear masks, but just generally outdoors where you can keep distance not a lot of risk)
Meanwhile, back at super spreader central...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/state-department-coronavirus-holiday-parties/2020/12/09/ba72c2f4-3a49-11eb-8328-a36a109900c2_story.html
A friend in the NE has a sister in a group home. Sister is severely mentally disabled. Not sure just how old she is. Anyway, sister had already had covid, although with just mild cold-like symptoms. Friend, who is very blue, has said she doesn’t want her sister to get the vaccine. She said she’s not anti science, just think it’s been rushed. However, the group home has said that if the sister doesn’t get the vaccine, she will have to move out. Friend cannot take care of her sister, as she needs 24 hour care. Both parents are dead. No other siblings. The sister is going to have to get the vaccine. I see no other choice in this situation.
rosarugosa
12-11-20, 9:37am
My DH's 43-yo supervisor just died of a heart attack, a few days after testing positive for Covid. His wife apparently got quite sick after Thanksgiving, and they bother got tested and were positive. Supervisor had a heart condition, but we are assuming Covid played a role in his death. DH says he was a really nice guy, so definitely a loss to his family and co-workers.
DH had last worked with him on 11/27, and DH got tested on 12/7, with a negative result. They work in a hospital, so employees are very conscientious about masks and hand hygiene.
happystuff
12-11-20, 11:43am
bae and tammy - I totally understand about self-protection and the disappointment in the lack of empathy from others for others... I'm sorry it has effected how you feel about the jobs that you each had seemed to love doing so much.
JaneV2.0
12-11-20, 12:51pm
I can't help but think if we had done this right we might be out of the woods, as other countries are. But we must have our "freedom." And incompetent leadership, of course.
frugal-one
12-11-20, 3:47pm
Meanwhile, back at super spreader central...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/state-department-coronavirus-holiday-parties/2020/12/09/ba72c2f4-3a49-11eb-8328-a36a109900c2_story.html
Talk about a moron!
I heard today the Pfizer vaccine has worse side effects than a flu vaccine. It is more like a shingles vaccine. There is some speculation after one such shot people will not want a second one, so people will be 50% not 95% protected.
My shingles shot was worse than any previous one I had, and I had decided I probably don't want another one but will take my chances.
So the prospect of a covid vaccine is not inviting. I would still get it if there is a "vaccine passport" I have heard some discussion of, and if said passport does not depend on having a smart phone since I don't, and if the passport would let me do everything I did pre-pandemic - travel, not wear a mask, etc. If I am undergoing a painful procedure twice I should have some rights that people who only get one shot or no shot at all don't have.
Teacher Terry
12-11-20, 8:24pm
You don’t get a vaccine just for yourself. You get it so the people that are too immune compromised to get one are protected like kids with cancer as one example.
rosarugosa
12-11-20, 8:27pm
I had no reaction at all to the shingles vaccine (or any other vaccine for that matter), so I will approach the covid vaccine with cautious optimism.
You don’t get a vaccine just for yourself. You get it so the people that are too immune compromised to get one are protected like kids with cancer as one example.
Yes, any decision should go beyond personal discomfort and include social responsibility.
I had a moderately unpleasant reaction to the shingles vaccine, like a hangover or mild flu symptoms for two or three days. If, by the time covid vaccine availability trickles down to me, any side effects are not severe and only last a few days I can tough it through. We'll know more later and there will probably be more vaccines approved by then.
The people I know who are not seniors and have been diagnosed with covid have all been asymptomatic. The cure seems worse than the disease on average for this age group. So I agree older and high risk people should be vaccinated first. If we really have this massive community spread all the news outlets are talking about by the time they are all vaccinated maybe the rest of us won't need to be. Theoretically if by say the end of February no one is dying or being hospitalized because we've achieved herd immunity naturally wouldn't that be a great thing for everyone but the pharmaceutical companies?
Teacher Terry
12-11-20, 9:31pm
It would be great but it’s not going to happen. Too many people say they aren’t going to take it. If we really have massive community spread??? Hospitals are starting to reach max capacity like Los Robles, CA and Utah is getting close as are we. People with cancer aren’t getting surgery or chemo timely in some places because of this. Not sure what planet you live on.
I heard today the Pfizer vaccine has worse side effects than a flu vaccine.
Where's your data?
Take your time....
ApatheticNoMore
12-11-20, 9:52pm
Theoretically if by say the end of February no one is dying or being hospitalized because we've achieved herd immunity naturally wouldn't that be a great thing for everyone but the pharmaceutical companies?
you are still off on this nonsense aren't you. Yea, yea don't confuse you with the facts, you have made up your mind, months ago. It's still only a small percentage of the population that has had it, with hospitals overwhelmed and unable to treat people. But what if we had 3 more months of hospitals unable to take patients and just continuing to let them many of them die untreated for 3 months straight, because we had that much spread, might we have herd immunity BY THEN? I really doubt it.
The Spanish flu only infected a third of the world's population before herd immunity was achieved. You do not need to infect 100% of people to achieve herd immunity and for a virus to die off.
I wish there was a vaccine for foolishness.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130216132858/http://www.cantrip.org/stupidity.html
The Spanish flu only infected a third of the world's population before herd immunity was achieved. You do not need to infect 100% of people to achieve herd immunity and for a virus to die off.
Did the Spanish flu really end? An informative article for your edification.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/09/01/1918-flu-pandemic-end/
Did the Spanish flu really end? An informative article for your edification.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/09/01/1918-flu-pandemic-end/
I will settle for what the article terms "generally attenuated" and a return to life as normal.
I have been thinking of other spreads. The Second Great Awakening raced through places like upstate New York sweeping up susceptible people in its path, until it was "burnt over", but not everyone participated in revivals.
Similarly we talk about things like "a crack cocaine epidemic" that wanes even if it does not die, and does so without infecting everyone.
My point is you don't need 100% exposure to end something "gone viral". The curve slopes downward eventually anyways.
I think there is some real authoritarian thinking amongst some, that everyone must wear masks forever. The Spanish flu never ended according to your article, but the mask wearing sure did in the Roaring 20's. We can get to good enough and return to normal. We do not have to get to everyone's idea of perfect health outcomes, perfect vaccination rates, etc. People are so weary of being cooped up and controlled and it is creating lots of blowback in terms of mental health not to mention the economy.
Nowadays the people who stopped wearing masks in the 1920's would be vilified and accused of social Darwinism, racism, ageism, and a few other sins.
I’m not a senior citizen and I’ve lost my current career to covid. Maybe Yppej doesn’t know me ... ;)
I had a severe reaction to shnagrix. Fever of 101 at it’s peak but it quickly subsided. Had to leave work and go home and be miserable for a day. I simply scheduled the second shot on a Friday afternoon. Had the same reaction the second time. And now hopefully I won’t ever get shingles. If the covid vaccination causes the same problem I’m good with that. Unlike some people (apparently) my middle aged friends
Who have had covid found that to be much worse. Every one of them has been ‘you don’t want this. Here is what I endured...’
I've had multiple patients with severe shingles. It is not a pretty thing - I think the screaming from agony probably bothered me the most.
Get your vaccinations.
A very dear friend of mine, seven years younger than me, had shingles when I was in my early 30’s. For months we’d be together and he’s shout ‘OW!’ And slap his face where the shingles had ‘shingled.’ He was miserable for almost a year, despite being too young to be a major risk of shingles. Yeah, no thanks. But at least shingles doesn’t kill most people. With covid it’s all the more scary. Unless one hates masks and views them as the Worst Thing Ever...
Teacher Terry
12-12-20, 12:54am
Watching the nightly national news is heartbreaking. Plenty of young people dying. A mom gives birth, can’t hold her baby and goes right on a ventilator. She dies a few days later. A guy lost all 4 of his siblings. The stories are endless.
I catch some of these stories here and there, but I no longer seek them out. It’s become too painful for me.
The truly heartbreaking is the "deadliest days of american history" which shows 9/11 and katrina, and pearl harbor, and then the other 4 days are "last wednesday" and "last thursday" etc. So many people dying because of trump's stupidity.
Deadliest days?
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/11/facebook-posts/chart-showing-deadliest-days-american-history-cont/
This link also discusses percent of the population in addition to sheer numbers:
https://slate.com/technology/2020/12/coronavirus-deadliest-days-history-facebook-twitter.html
From your link.
Most of the figures cited are accurate and the general thrust of the claim is valid: The pandemic has produced staggeringly high daily death counts that reached 3,411 on Dec. 9
I have been thinking of other spreads. The Second Great Awakening raced through places like upstate New York sweeping up susceptible people in its path, until it was "burnt over", but not everyone participated in revivals.
Similarly we talk about things like "a crack cocaine epidemic" that wanes even if it does not die, and does so without infecting everyone.
My point is you don't need 100% exposure to end something "gone viral". The curve slopes downward eventually anyways.
I would not want to draw any hard comparisons to modern times, but for a point of interest you might recall the diseases that the Europeans, who had some sort of natural immunity, introduced to the native Americans. Measles, small pox, flu, etc. that wiped out what some claim was 95% of their population in a relatively short time. I guess the curve did go down eventually. In the case of the Spanish flu virus which seems to have mutated in a less virulent form, I suspect there is not guarantee that Covid could actually mutate into a more virulent form.
What matters is that the fewer people who are infected the fewer who will die either directly or indirectly from exposure. And they are saying the vaccines is that it will reduce the number infected. Fewer infected=fewer deaths. I don't think we will know what numbers constitute herd immunity until we are there.
I think the vaccines are a good idea, but strongly disagree with those who say even if you get vaccinated - or everyone gets vaccinated - life must continue to be restricted. Why get the vaccines then? Because in some far corner of the planet one person might die from a virus that lies dormant but never dies?
Teacher Terry
12-12-20, 10:46am
If one percent seems like a low death rate it’s actually 3.4 million people in our country alone. My friend that died probably had 15-20 years left if it wasn’t for the virus.
I think the vaccines are a good idea, but strongly disagree with those who say even if you get vaccinated - or everyone gets vaccinated - life must continue to be restricted. Why get the vaccines then? Because in some far corner of the planet one person might die from a virus that lies dormant but never dies?
That’s not what’s going to be asked. But by all means carry on griping about masks.
happystuff
12-12-20, 12:55pm
I think the vaccines are a good idea, but strongly disagree with those who say even if you get vaccinated - or everyone gets vaccinated - life must continue to be restricted. Why get the vaccines then? Because in some far corner of the planet one person might die from a virus that lies dormant but never dies?
Unless, of course, if that one person that might die is you?
You complain about wearing a mask, you complain about people who don't wear masks... you really don't seem to make much sense at all.
Here's hoping you stay safe and healthy AND don't make anyone else sick or dead.
I think this is an excellent article, arguing for individual liberty, common sense, and local solutions rather than paranoia by public health "experts" tyrannizing us. And yes, some of them do want us to wear masks forever:
https://reason.com/2020/12/04/epidemiologists-masks-social-distancing-vaccine-forever-new-york-times/
I think this is an excellent article, arguing for individual liberty, common sense, and local solutions rather than paranoia by public health "experts" tyrannizing us.
Whence do you derive your "expertise", Yppej?
Where did you go to medical school? Did you study epidemiology, public health, virology, anything? Practice professionally? Author any publications? Consult in the field? Testify as an expert witness?
Surely you must have some serious chops, since you are throwing stones.
I have faith in what you call "experts." Not unquestioning, blind faith, but I believe they know far more than I do about infectious diseases. Do you consider Anthony Fauci a fraud? Laurie Garrett?
We need to maintain caution until we've reached the infection level of countries that have come through this pandemic better than we have. And/or we figure out how much immunity the vaccine buys us. This may require mask-wearing.
The two vaccines coming to market soonest are 95% effective. Masks should only be needed for those who are not vaccinated. Being able to ditch the mask would be an incentive to get the shot. But it is about control, not health.
I tell you, if my parents get the vaccine as soon as they are 12 days past their second shots I will give them big hugs, first time since March. I believe vaccines work, I am not an anti-vaxxer.
I'm praying my parents get the vaccine soon. They are officially in outbreak status at their facility, as of a week ago.
From the sound of it, these vaccines are effective--but for how long? That's my primary concern.
I don't get the hysteria around "control." Do you feel the same way about seat belts? There are a million ways corporations, governments, and peers exercise control, from expecting people to wear clothes, to the necessity of paying taxes and fees. But you only draw the line at masks designed to protect you and others in a time when 3000+ are dying every day?
happystuff
12-12-20, 2:51pm
But it is about control, not health.
And this is the biggest lie you are living with and arguing about and believing in - this is NOT about control, this IS about health!!! For yourself and others!!! You can't seem to grasp this or simply refuse to.
Masks should only be needed for those who are not vaccinated.
Dr. Yppej speaks. Please come by at your soonest convenience and educate the "experts" in charge of the protocols for my infectious disease response team....
(Hey, also, could you ask them about not bothering to check my blood titers on a regular basis for all the other stuff I get vaccinated for, I'd sure love to avoid the pesky blood draws and all of that.)
Being able to ditch the mask would be an incentive to get the shot.
I think probably being able to avoid intubation for yourself and others should be sufficient motivation. Then again, intubation always looks like such fun when we do it. Maybe it'll become a sport?
From the sound of it, these vaccines are effective--but for how long? That's my primary concern.
I don't get the hysteria around "control." Do you feel the same way about seat belts? There are a million ways corporations, governments, and peers exercise control, from expecting people to wear clothes, to the necessity of paying taxes and fees. But you only draw the line at masks designed to protect you and others in a time when 3000+ are dying every day?
Did you read the article I posted a link to? Some of these "experts" want us wearing masks forever, long after the pandemic is over. In my state they have convinced the governor to mandate that you wear a mask at all times, even if you are out hiking in the middle of nowhere with no one else around. They have convinced him to impose a curfew as if covid particles were nocturnal animals only out to infect you at night. It is restriction on top of restriction on top of restriction the most visible manifestation of which is masking. Masks symbolize the entire loss of civil liberties during the pandemic by politicians who themselves jet around the country, hold indoor parties and gatherings (not wearing masks themselves, do as I say not as I do), violate business closures by secretly and illegally getting their hair done, etc. There are two sets of rules and as a little person I justifiably resent the way the elites have handled the pandemic.
Ignore the rules if you don't like them. Other than a few restaurant owners that have been fined or forced to shut down there doesn't seem to be much legal penalty in doing so.
But when you end up sick and potentially in the hospital or morgue like trump or melania or herman cain or ben carson or amy coney barret or rudy guiliani or ben sasse or donald trump jr or rick scott or chuck grassley or the republicans in the Arizona legislature or the Republicans in the Michigan legislature or any of many other non-mask, non-rule followers don't expect much sympathy from anyone.
I think the vaccines are a good idea, but strongly disagree with those who say even if you get vaccinated - or everyone gets vaccinated - life must continue to be restricted. Why get the vaccines then? Because in some far corner of the planet one person might die from a virus that lies dormant but never dies?
Because it’s only for several months as we roll out vaccines to all. It’s not forever.
Nothing is instantaneous.
Teacher Terry
12-12-20, 5:20pm
No one is trying to control you. People that think that have more issues than the virus.
happystuff
12-12-20, 5:53pm
No one is trying to control you. People that think that have more issues than the virus.
+1
rosarugosa
12-13-20, 8:45am
Jeppy: The good news is that if you are in the middle of nowhere with nobody else around, you can absolutely get away without wearing your mask. When I'm out walking, I pick and choose when I need to have my mask on my face and I see plenty of others doing the same. I do err more on the side of masking where I am more likely to encounter people, e.g. busy sidewalks in the town centers.
I agree with you RR and I wish our governor did also. I notice that despite his dictates he will remove his mask in public at press conferences, I guess so he will look better on camera. Typical politician hypocrisy.
JaneV2.0
12-13-20, 12:36pm
I saw a doctor interviewed last night (wish I had made note of her name) who startlingly said that we really don't know how the Pfizer vaccine works in that we don't even know if it protects completely against infection,or if it only protects against life-threatening outcomes. That would explain continued mask wearing--at least for awhile.
ApatheticNoMore
12-13-20, 3:17pm
No one is trying to control you. People that think that have more issues than the virus.
:laff:
Is there any reason to wear a mask after coronavirus is really no threat? Well ... they do provide good sun protection.
In Asian countries, at least, they're used during flu season.
happystuff
12-13-20, 3:55pm
:laff:
Is there any reason to wear a mask after coronavirus is really no threat? Well ... they do provide good sun protection.
The key here is "after coronavirus is really no threat". Or whatever comes next will no longer be a threat or the next virus after that.....
happystuff
12-13-20, 4:06pm
It's interesting with the upcoming holidays... we have received invitations to "share" Christmas with one or two different extended families and... while I would love to do that... I keep coming back to the fact and myself and one of my children work in a warehouse environment, and that other workers in that environment have tested positive over the last couple of weeks. While we are still okay, I don't consider us "safe" to be joining others outside our immediate household. I love that we are being thought of, though, and hope to connect with family in other ways.
I truly worry about the "numbers" after the holidays. I pray that everyone will give the gift of safety and health to others this holiday season by doing what is right and so easy to do - mask, social distance, etc.
Meanwhile, while we’re busy bickering about the evil of being forced to wear masks, in Australia they are averaging about 10 cases per day, almost all of them quarantined travelers arriving from other countries. Everything has opened back up and life is normal. And no one is dying from covid.
It's interesting with the upcoming holidays... we have received invitations to "share" Christmas with one or two different extended families and... while I would love to do that...
My family has decided to postpone the Christmas celebration to the Summer Solstice.
happystuff
12-13-20, 4:56pm
My family has decided to postpone the Christmas celebration to the Summer Solstice.
That's a nice alternative.
My family has decided to postpone the Christmas celebration to the Summer Solstice.
That is a brilliant solution if everyone is on board with it.
That is a brilliant solution if everyone is on board with it.
Mom is sitting on her porch in a rocking chair with a shotgun on her knees, and telling everyone to stay away from her until she's vaccinated.
Mom is sitting on her porch in a rocking chair with a shotgun on her knees, and telling everyone to stay away from her until she's vaccinated.
That sort of seems the corollary to a meme I saw the other day. It was the head of the first UK woman to be vaccinated photoshopped on a drunk party girl in the middle of the street holding a bottle of booze and said ‘first vaccinated woman goes on pub crawl bender shorting ‘I’m immortal, mother f’ers!’
Within the last month, one of my cousin's entire family caught the virus after visiting DisneyWorld (I will refrain from further comment), then someone from my parent's neighborhood, where I grew up, died from it, then my 85 year old aunt went into, and thankfully left, the ICU with Covid. Four people have tested positive at my work (though we're all remote) and it seems like more and more people who I have a direct connection to have the viral nasty. It finally feels like a pandemic on a personal level, though I never doubted that it was one.
Given the rising cases, we actually did curbside pickup today from a department store rather than do the social distance dance in the extremely crowded store. A week ago we had to dodge people in a local Walgreen's. No one there seemed to care about keeping distance. So we may resort to curbside more often until this thing resides.
This first part of this article gives a good summary of our current status with the pandemic in the USA.
I can’t absorb all of this. I’m numb to it now.
https://apple.news/A4pKxBdISRGOqanPTMgkIuA
dado potato
12-15-20, 3:54am
[QUOTE=ewomack;370150] It finally feels like a pandemic on a personal level/QUOTE]
Yes, and in my county I am seeing more sickness also. I am sad to hear of every case. I encourage everyone to take every reasonable precaution.
Yes, Love is alive.
I went for gas last night and people were going in the building to pay, buy snacks, or get coffee from the embedded coffee shop. No one but me was wearing a mask, no employees, no customers. So while I continue to obey the law I am not the only one who thinks masks don't work against the miniscule covid particles.
rosarugosa
12-15-20, 9:57am
I'm not seeing anyone going into businesses unmasked in my area, although I do see some improper mask wearing. I had a fleeting fantasy of bringing a red Sharpie to Market Basket and "tagging" the exposed noses.
happystuff
12-15-20, 11:58am
I went for gas last night and people were going in the building to pay, buy snacks, or get coffee from the embedded coffee shop. No one but me was wearing a mask, no employees, no customers. So while I continue to obey the law I am not the only one who thinks masks don't work against the miniscule covid particles.
What makes you think they aren't wearing a mask due to thinking that masks don't work? They could just be adopting the selfish "I don't care attitude".
happystuff
12-15-20, 11:59am
I'm not seeing anyone going into businesses unmasked in my area, although I do see some improper mask wearing. I had a fleeting fantasy of bringing a red Sharpie to Market Basket and "tagging" the exposed noses.
ROFLOL. And you could explain your actions as simply decorating them for the holiday! (aka Rudolph)
I'm not seeing anyone going into businesses unmasked in my area, although I do see some improper mask wearing. I had a fleeting fantasy of bringing a red Sharpie to Market Basket and "tagging" the exposed noses.
I saw a picture of a mask online that said on it "it doesn't work if I can see your nose".
I saw someone on the news delivering vaccines to a medical facility and his mask was not covering his nose at all.
I've been talking with more people like me who are pretty sure they had covid last winter, but we couldn't get antibody tests from our doctors/insurance to confirm our immunity. Others know for a fact they had it due to positive covid tests. These groups 1) should not have restrictions on them and 2) like Trump should volunteer to go to the back of the vaccine line.
Pets can get covid too. This makes sense because the virus was in animals before it was in humans. Yet there are no mask mandates for pets. Think of an outdoor cat and all the places it goes unsupervised.
The reason is masks are disgusting and the animal would keep clawing nonstop to get it off. We have more regard for animals than for humans.
A better approach is to social distance and this sweater can help those who do not know what 6 feet is:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/simplisafe-launches-tech-enabled-social-distancing-sweater-amidst-unprecedented-holiday-season-301192250.html
I said there should be something like this in the spring and now there is!
You don't hear much about surface contact spread these days. Maybe it has been overshadowed by masks and social distancing and is still a risk? There was a day when I would let groceries, mail, packages, etc. sit out to decontaminate and take out is still out for me. I've mostly discontinued all of that although hand washing is still in. I've wondered with the big winter spike if i should be more careful.
sweetana3
12-16-20, 12:13pm
Here is a reasonable discussion of surface contamination and the virus. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200903/coronavirus-on-surfaces-whats-the-real-risk
JaneV2.0
12-16-20, 12:20pm
According to the CDC website:
COVID-19 spreads less commonly through contact with contaminated surfaces.
Respiratory droplets can also land on surfaces and objects. It is possible that a person could get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or eyes.
Spread from touching surfaces is not thought to be a common way that COVID-19 spreads
COVID-19 rarely spreads between people and animals
It appears that the virus that causes COVID-19 can spread from people to animals in some situations. CDC is aware of a small number of pets worldwide, including cats and dogs, reported to be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19, mostly after close contact with people with COVID-19. Learn what you should do if you have pets.
At this time, the risk of COVID-19 spreading from animals to people is considered to be low. Learn about COVID-19 and pets and other animals.
Thanks. That's helpful. Sounds like it is possible for surface contact spread, but most unlikely.
I had an interesting pet situation come up. A friend invited a small group of four for an outdoor meal and evening discussion around a fire pit. Someone asked about their people friendly dog. I wasn't able to attend, but did think about friendly dog licking one hand and then going to the next person to be petted or to lick another's hand.
I heard on the radio there were no covid deaths in New Hampshire yesterday. The Granite State is fine with me going there but my governor prohibits it. So to "protect" me he insists I stay in a higher risk area. Talk about stupid nanny statism.
I heard on the radio there were no covid deaths in New Hampshire yesterday. The Granite State is fine with me going there but my governor prohibits it. So to "protect" me he insists I stay in a higher risk area. Talk about stupid nanny statism.
So what are you going to do about it?
heard on the radio there were no covid deaths in New Hampshire yesterday. The Granite State is fine with me going there but my governor prohibits it. So to "protect" me he insists I stay in a higher risk area. Talk about stupid nanny statism.
Again, the information that Jeppy presents is incorrect. Travel is not prohibited, but you are asked to quarantine when you get back or have a negative covid test.
Plus, NH did not have zero deaths. Today there were 21. https://patch.com/new-hampshire/concord-nh/new-hampshire-announces-21-more-covid-19-deaths-update This was the highest death rate of this pandemic.
frugal-one
12-16-20, 9:09pm
I heard on the radio there were no covid deaths in New Hampshire yesterday. The Granite State is fine with me going there but my governor prohibits it. So to "protect" me he insists I stay in a higher risk area. Talk about stupid nanny statism.
Whine, whine, whine... know how to do anything else?
Wow, this is just...special.
"We want them infected."
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/16/trump-appointee-demanded-herd-immunity-strategy-446408
Wow, this is just...special.
"We want them infected."
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/16/trump-appointee-demanded-herd-immunity-strategy-446408
We're number one! (In pandemic idiocy.)
Meanwhile, people are dying and suffering with long-lasting and permanent effects--like Herman Cain, and the director of White House Security who lost parts of a foot and one leg. Not everybody gets--or can afford--Trump's super-duper extra special COVID treatment.
Not everybody gets--or can afford--Trump's super-duper extra special COVID treatment.
"Let them eat cake..."
First we were told covid hit our shores in February, then January, then December, then November. The genie was already out of the bottle before anyone caught on. The idea that we could have stopped community spread is not true. You have to know about something to stop it.
It was circulating in Italy as early as September 2019 and there is lots of travel between Italy and the US. Source: Reuters, link below.
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-italy-timing/researchers-find-coronavirus-was-circulating-in-italy-earlier-than-thought-idUSKBN27W1J2
"The low rate of lethality" is one reason it was not identified earlier according to the article.
Developing natural herd immunity among healthy people while protecting the vulnerable is not an unreasonable approach for a low lethality virus.
The problem is our vulnerable are not protected. Here is an article on how dirty nursing homes are:
https://www.pedagogyeducation.com/Main-Campus/News-Blogs/Campus-News/News.aspx?news=78
First we were ...yada yada yada...
Cherry-picking. Be healed.
ApatheticNoMore
12-16-20, 11:55pm
At best herd immunity was a bet that we wouldn't have a vaccine first, a bet they lost, we do have a vaccine available and will have one even widely available first. And it is PLENTY irrational to assume there is a way to protect the vulnerable when no such way exists. I kind of suspect the type of countries capable of protecting the vulnerable, if such is even possible, probably have perfectly overlap with the countries able to crush covid and thus not needing to. Any counter examples where they had tons of covid and protected the vulnerable? Low rate of fatality in a large enough of population still means a lot of unnecessary death including of those at low risk (under 50 and no preexistings) who still sometimes die of it.
Trump had to go. He had to go. You can't kill your own people and get away with it (and have them lap it up). It's as bad as a precedent gets. Talk about lambs to the slaughter. He had to go. Biden may interpret it as a mandate for whatever ridiculous spectacle we are presented with now (choosing a cabinet by identity as if that was the most important thing - oh it's so silly) But he was the ventriloquists dummy the desire to oust Trump spoke through and spoke enough to be done with him.
Most people I know have one mask or neck gaiter they've been wearing for the entire pandemic. Oh snap!
I cannot get the link to copy but a story in today's New York Post reports many masks worn today are worse than no mask at all. Wearing a mask slows down airflow and increases the chance infectious particles lodge in the nose, to summarize. This especially happens with reused pleated masks.
In the highly scientific realm of "most of the people I know", it's been a long time since I've seen anyone wearing a gaiter. I have noticed that some people in retail wear flimsy masks that fit loosely, I suppose for comfort more than efficiency. I have a handful of masks. My favorite is the Under Armor. It's a heavier material and is tailored to match nose and chin contours and comes in sizes for a good fit. I see a lot sports figures on tv wearing them with the iconic Under Armor logo. I wear it while cycling and it actually feels good in the cool weather and doesn't fog glasses as long as you are moving and there is air flow around the glasses. Since the second (or is it third) surge most of the trail walkers and cyclists wear a mask of some sort even though they are outdoors. Second favorite are the Adidas mask that come three to a pack. A little lighter material, comfortable and also good for exercise. I have an older mask purchased at the start of things that has a plasticky feeling inner lining that tends to lie flat against the nose and mouth. Not good.
A late night talk show I sometimes hear a bit of before falling asleep promotes a mask with a small battery and fan to keep a fresh flow of air to the face. Seems like a gimmick, but they are out there.
JaneV2.0
12-17-20, 10:34am
"Low rate of lethality?" We've lost over 300,000* souls in nine months--the mortality rate among those infected is around 3%--not to mention the morbidity rate. Herd mentality through infection is a dumb, dangerous idea.
*This compares to pre-vaccination era measles deaths of around 450 per year in the U.S.
Teacher Terry
12-17-20, 10:58am
Everyone I know has about 10 masks so always have one clean.
I would not want to draw any hard comparisons to modern times, but for a point of interest you might recall the diseases that the Europeans, who had some sort of natural immunity, introduced to the native Americans. Measles, small pox, flu, etc. that wiped out what some claim was 95% of their population in a relatively short time.
95% is a good example of a high lethality virus. A more modern example is ebola which according to the World Health Organization has a 50% lethality rate.
Covid definitely falls in the low lethality rate category. (Not no lethality, but low lethality.)
happystuff
12-17-20, 11:26am
Everyone I know has about 10 masks so always have one clean.
Or at least a box or two of the disposable ones.
*This compares to pre-vaccination era measles deaths of around 450 per year in the U.S.
Of course prior to 1963 when the vaccine came out the population was lower, but I think the major difference is air travel was expensive and rare. Now we have a society where shutting the airports down to passenger travel is unthinkable even in a pandemic. The government would only advise people to stay put, but not stop them from flying all around the country to multi household Thanksgiving gatherings. There's definitely something to be said for isolationism, not only in terms of public health but the environment given the carbon impact of leisure travel, especially by plane. But don't say that in these forums where long distance travel is a sacred right, even for people dumping their student loan debts on the taxpayers.
ApatheticNoMore
12-17-20, 1:13pm
Climate change also may contribute to the spread of pandemics. Of course maybe vaccines are developed very quickly in the future as well. At least that might happen. Most effects of climate change have NO such techno-solutions. The airlines are going to get another bailout, call it a subsidy to the fossil fuel industry though it's probably not counted as such by those who calculate such things. It should be.
I don't think travel is so much about these forums but something the well-off middle class does. The job where coworkers did it the most was the job I was paid the most. Life is somewhat more modest now, but yes some still travel, it's a well off middle class thing to do afterall! I find the middle class rather strange, but I know in American society you Don't Want to be poor, you Really don't, poor areas have 4 times more covid here compared to well off areas - it is in so many ways a bit of a death sentence to be poor, unless you can live in a cave or off the grid that's the only way it might kind of work maybe.
I visit the ocean and I am renewed and don't even need a passport or a plane. To be in such an awesome presence of the waves and the life washing ashore, I don't even want to contribute to the death of the world anymore.
The obsession with student loans, and whether a few people aren't paying them, is just as bizarre as the obsession with masks. I don't favor broad student loan forgiveness, I just don't care THAT much though.
Teacher Terry
12-17-20, 3:31pm
There were many years that our family of 5 couldn’t afford to fly. We drove or took the train. I wasn’t jealous or judgmental about people that could. Now there’s only 2 of us and we can fly to travel. I would like to take a few more trips before I get to old.
The problem with the whole open everything up and lets get to herd immunity idea is that it ignores that only about 5% of the US population has been infected so far. If it took 10 months to get this far with all the social distancing and masks and stuff shut down, it would take another 190 months for everyone to get it if we continue to follow the public health recommendations. And if we open everything up and try to get to herd immunity by encouraging everyone to put themselves at risk of the illness then we will overwhelm our healthcare systems. In many places they are already at the edge of being overwhelmed. Once they get overwhelmed then the death rate will go through the roof. A lot of non-elderly people who get covid still need hospital care, but then survive (Chris Christie for example). If our hospitals can't provide that care people who needed but couldn't get hospital care will die needlessly. And to do so at this point just as one, probably at least two, very effective vaccines are being rolled out large scale is just idiotic.
At this point I almost think we should "open it all up", let evolution takes its course and rebuild civilization from the ashes.
With some luck the herd's overall fitness would be improved by such a challenge....
frugal-one
12-17-20, 4:18pm
At this point I almost think we should "open it all up", let evolution takes its course and rebuild civilization from the ashes.
With some luck the herd's overall fitness would be improved by such a challenge....
Thankfully, I have lived my life and done the things I really wanted to do before now. There are still things I would like to do but if I die.... I have had a good life. We've decided if things are not opened up by next summer, we will do more. Our time is running out.
ApatheticNoMore
12-17-20, 4:32pm
The thing is it only does so much for evolution as most of the people if affects are past having kids. Hope the next pandemic kills those in their prime and spares the seniors maybe? If so, well we can't stop our whole society just for some young folks who could just isolate for a couple years.
The thing is it only does so much for evolution as most of the people if affects are past having kids. Hope the next pandemic kills those in their prime and spares the seniors maybe? If so, well we can't stop our whole society just for some young folks who could just isolate for a couple years.
Oh that's OK. Once the water and sewer and power and food infrastructure fall apart as all the "old folks" who know how to operate them move on, well....
I think everyone will get to share in the fun.
iris lilies
12-17-20, 5:59pm
Thankfully, I have lived my life and done the things I really wanted to do before now. There are still things I would like to do but if I die.... I have had a good life. We've decided if things are not opened up by next summer, we will do more. Our time is running out.
I am enjoying my life in Covid times, tho. It is downshifting, but not shifting to bad.
, I’d like a couple more European trips but if that doesn’t happen for a couple of years, that’s OK.
We will get through this and hopefully be wiser as a civilization. Living simply and supporting each other is about all that each one can do. I refuse to be melodramatic, confrontational, angry as it is a waste of my energy and helps no one. I believe that we all have better things to do than that although some do seem to feel differently.
As in the summer I can make the same observation - that despite all its restrictions California is in the worst shape of any state.
You would think officials would have learned their approach is wrong, but no. They should be trying new things like shutting down passenger air travel but they can't admit they're wrong. I saw on the news over 80 million Americans are planning to travel for Christmas. A bunch will probably go to or from California. They shut down a sports stadium with no fans but won't touch airports.
Chicken lady
12-17-20, 8:45pm
My students’ grandparents are dying.
do the whole world a favor. Before you leave the house, ask yourself, do I have a choice? (You almost always have a choice) if the answer is yes, ask yourself if you’re willing to risk the life of a random stranger for what you are about to do.
if you can’t look into the eyes of a seven year old showing you the “one last present” from the grandmother he has spent every Christmas with - stay home.
and btw - I’m teaching online. My school is online. Except for fencing - which is being held in the parking lot in snow.
Teacher Terry
12-17-20, 9:56pm
CL, that’s heartbreaking. We have been going nowhere for the past two months and intend to keep it that way. I really don’t understand all the traveling and gatherings now that the entire country is doing horribly. Plus with the vaccines here there’s hope on the horizon.
Merry Christmas kids! Now take the covids back to your grandparents next week for Christmas dinner! It’ll be the best and last Christmas present you will ever give them. Ho ho ho!
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sick-santa-mrs-claus-may-have-exposed-50-georgia-kids-n1251236
happystuff
12-18-20, 11:52am
We will get through this and hopefully be wiser as a civilization. Living simply and supporting each other is about all that each one can do. I refuse to be melodramatic, confrontational, angry as it is a waste of my energy and helps no one. I believe that we all have better things to do than that although some do seem to feel differently.
I agree and hope that when I look back on this time, I'm able to honestly see that I was helpful, kind, compassionate, caring, etc. instead of selfish, angry, uncaring, whiny, etc.
iris lilies
12-18-20, 12:51pm
Today I was thinking about the odd attitude of what I call “soldiering on in a pandemic. “
I’ve had four sources now insist, four of them, that we must carry on with life! Because we must carry-on! Because we must! OK now I have to give you the context for these conversations: flower shows and plant conferences.
My God, we’re not speaking about turning out equipment for the war effort. We’re talking about holding flower shows. Holding meetings about flower shows. Holding conferences about growing flowers.
95% of the population in these groups are over the age of 65, the fragile population. I just read today a death notice of one of our flower show judges, age 93, died from Covid.
This makes me crazy. One of those voices loudly proclaimed in an ( unnecessary) article in plant Society journal that Covid19 is serious folks! Well, doh. I don’t need to read about Covid in our plant society journal, I know about Covid. But that same voice is postulating that in our bus tour of gardens we will have to have double the number of buses so that we can have social distancing. Me, I think oh hell no, how about no buses? How about no conference? I won’t be attending any of it.
This is not to say that real debate about essential services and essential commerce like restaurants operating is useful. I think there are valid points for keeping those establishments open and functional.
I’m talking about nonessential things like Flower Shows.The perspective of some of my fellow flower people is way out of whack.
Teacher Terry
12-18-20, 1:04pm
Totally agree IL. It’s bizarre.
I don't understand why people can't just write this year off and wait until they get vaccinated to attend nonessential gatherings. It's not forever, after all.
iris lilies
12-18-20, 1:32pm
I don't understand why people can't just write this year off and wait until they get vaccinated to attend nonessential gatherings. It's not forever, after all.
That is exactly what I think. I’ll just take this year to stay in and have a simple life. Those of us who CAN do it SHOULD do it, anyway. God knows there are plenty of people who cannot do that, those who have to work and school their children and etc.
But all folks in the flower show world who think we must carry on—I just think whaaaaaat? ? It’s not like they are the World War II generation soldiering on, they’re barely my senior. I think being patriotic and “ strong” is, in fact, making necessary adjustments to my life to stay healthy.
ApatheticNoMore
12-18-20, 2:11pm
Oh I think it's genuinely psychologically hard to live this pandemic, not do much, never be free of fearing the virus in the background etc.. So it takes a toll.
What one will far less readily admit than hey duh many parts of this pandemic kinda suck, and they do, is that there are parts of it one likes and in many ways one Dreads the return to the old normal. Oh sure it will be nice not to fear death around every corner, if not for oneself then for others. But I don't look forward to going to the office every day, buying gas every week to do so (yep it's official like at least 75% of my gas costs were commuting, ha for a job that's only 10 miles away at that - I bought gas every week, I buy it once a month now), traffic, hecticness - this is too much in the other direction, but that life before was crazy hectic. I'm an introvert, this is Too Much introversion for me, but I hate the normal hectic, it's overstimulating, it's draining, I hate always having to be around others and most of the time not able to be myself around them either (have to be work persona and so on). People rushing around and doing what anyway, mostly destructive stuff, that I don't look forward to the return of. But like I said this is too much in the other direction, I'd like not to avoid people Constantly, just much of the time :)
That many corporations are embracing (permanent) teleworking is one of the positives to come out of this.
A number of people I know are getting increasingly hostile about me continuing my diving. They bleep about my travels to WI and OH are going to spread it. I’ve had to tell them rather firmly to back off. I’ve also called them hypocrites to their (virtual) faces.
They’re continuing to get together with friends and family. Christmas shopping at the mall or other crowded stores. Big T’giving gatherings and ones planned for Christmas and New Year’s. I continually remind them that private gatherings are the majority reason for the spread now.
I work from home. Occasionally go to socially distanced church. Grocery shop once a week and go to get my scuba tanks filled as needed. And these people are freaking I’m going to spread it. Idiots.
And no, they’re not conservatives. They’re libs.
iris lilies
12-18-20, 2:52pm
A number of people I know are getting increasingly hostile about me continuing my diving. They bleep about my travels to WI and OH are going to spread it. I’ve had to tell them rather firmly to back off. I’ve also called them hypocrites to their (virtual) faces.
They’re continuing to get together with friends and family. Christmas shopping at the mall or other crowded stores. Big T’giving gatherings and ones planned for Christmas and New Year’s. I continually remind them that private gatherings are the majority reason for the spread now.
I work from home. Occasionally go to socially distanced church. Grocery shop once a week and go to get my scuba tanks filled as needed. And these people are freaking I’m going to spread it. Idiots.
And no, they’re not conservatives. They’re libs.
I think most people are taking the precautions they consider reasonable. I think JP1 needs to come and Visit my block in my very blue city Biden for president signs, black live matter signs, rainbow declarations and etc. abound, and I can point to every household that has had out-of-state vacations by choice, many households with more than one, in the past few months. They use airplanes. Did they comply with each state’s quarantine requirement? I don’t know, but kinda makes you wonder. Again, these are all very liberal political voters.
A close friend, gay and Dem voter, related how he took so many precautions when he flew to California. Stayed three weeks. Stayed mostly in one place to visit our friends. Only they all piled into a car pile and traveled from California to another state to visit another set of our friends.
It’s all OK because he took precautions.
Like I said, everyone thinks they’re taking precautions. It’s silly that we as a society are painting this as a liberal and conservative issue. That’s not what I see in actual practice.
iris lilies
12-18-20, 2:59pm
I guess this is as good a place as any to confess that Covid lockdown has given me a disease that I never thought I would have: baby fever
I don’t mean baby fever for humans, I mean I have a yen to get a puppy. I’m really not a puppy person. But there are reasons why in lockdown we could raise a puppy because we have the time and attention to give to a puppy. And they are so cuuuuuuuuute! And my big dog needs another dog around and I theorize he would be less likely to be attacking a baby that he helps to raise. Plus a bulldog is going to get bigger then our current foster mini dog who is old and small and a little fragile.
rosarugosa
12-18-20, 3:04pm
ANM: " I'd like not to avoid people Constantly, just much of the time." I love it; that should be on a commemorative 2020 t-shirt or something. :)
IL: Get a puppy! Post lots of pictures!
ApatheticNoMore
12-18-20, 3:12pm
Everyone is taking what precautions they may consider reasonable, because the guidance from the powers that be is poorly communicated and all abstinence only all the time, when we do get it. There was like a month and a half in the whole pandemic when one was allowed to see anyone outside their household even outdoors here. This is not reasonable.
I don't necessarily believe that most cases are originating in personal gatherings, oh of course I believe personal gatherings can spread covid (esp if inside, undistanced, unmasked). But I suspect the powers that be Don't Actually Know where the cases are originating. Since they have no ability to actually trace superspreader events it seems, even in cases of known superspreader events and people, if the superspreading event or person itself had been missed of course all spread look like it's from family members, anonymous community spread etc., because that is how it spreads afterward. I really have seen little evidence that contract tracing here has revealed any real information on how this is actually spreading. But it does seem to be everywhere now :0!
frugal-one
12-18-20, 3:39pm
I guess this is as good a place as any to confess that Covid lockdown has given me a disease that I never thought I would have: baby fever
I don’t mean baby fever for humans, I mean I have a yen to get a puppy. I’m really not a puppy person. But there are reasons why in lockdown we could raise a puppy because we have the time and attention to give to a puppy. And they are so cuuuuuuuuute! And my big dog needs another dog around and I theorize he would be less likely to be attacking a baby that he helps to raise. Plus a bulldog is going to get bigger then our current foster mini dog who is old and small and a little fragile.
Ugh!!!! Housebreaking a dog or child is beyond fun!
This thing is infused with politics. Of course small gatherings spread it, but so do all the gatherings related to keeping our economy open. They just don’t want to shut down the economy. In person schools!?! I still can’t believe that is happening.
iris lilies
12-18-20, 3:54pm
Ugh!!!! Housebreaking a dog or child is beyond fun!
please repeat often over the next several weeks.
DH is not on board with this because he says we will have two years of peeing and chewing on everything.
Our head of rescue just had a litter of puppies. Only two of them are female and I don’t know which one out of the litter she’ll keep, but it will likely be a female. That leaves only one that would be a possibility for us. People stand in line for her dogs.
So bottom line it doesn’t look likely that we would get one of these puppies. I’m not gonna go elsewhere for a puppy, it is either hers or none.
This may this fever may just be a temporary insanity that goes away in a few days.
I could get a kitten and they are so much fun and so independent. But the thing is I can’t get a kitten because I’m too old. The cat will outlive me. The only cats I can get are adult cats.I just don’t want a litter box for a while longer. I’ve been with out a litter box for six months and it is great.
Sonora Shepherd
12-18-20, 4:59pm
Pets add so much to our lives, tho. We have two small dogs that make us laugh every day. One has allergies and costs a fortune, but we would do anything to keep her healthy. Get lots of chew toys, go for lots of potty walks (great time to talk to people outside). It will work out.
frugal-one
12-18-20, 5:03pm
please repeat often over the next several weeks.
DH is not on board with this because he says we will have two years of peeing and chewing on everything.
Our head of rescue just had a litter of puppies. Only two of them are female and I don’t know which one out of the litter she’ll keep, but it will likely be a female. That leaves only one that would be a possibility for us. People stand in line for her dogs.
So bottom line it doesn’t look likely that we would get one of these puppies. I’m not gonna go elsewhere for a puppy, it is either hers or none.
This may this fever may just be a temporary insanity that goes away in a few days.
I could get a kitten and they are so much fun and so independent. But the thing is I can’t get a kitten because I’m too old. The cat will outlive me. The only cats I can get are adult cats.I just don’t want a litter box for a while longer. I’ve been with out a litter box for six months and it is great.
I thought you wanted to travel? More pets will tie you down?
rosarugosa
12-18-20, 5:13pm
We only adopted a kitten once. Every other time, we've adopted young adults. That feels better since it is harder for adults to get adopted. We aren't quite noble enough to adopt older cats because then the inevitable heartache comes too soon. We might become more receptive as we get older though for the same reason IL doesn't want to adopt a kitten.
iris lilies
12-18-20, 7:16pm
I thought you wanted to travel? More pets will tie you down?
keep ‘em coming.
We only adopted a kitten once. Every other time, we've adopted young adults. That feels better since it is harder for adults to get adopted. We aren't quite noble enough to adopt older cats because then the inevitable heartache comes too soon. We might become more receptive as we get older though for the same reason IL doesn't want to adopt a kitten.
I was just having this conversation with a friend yesterday. We’re ready to get another cat or two now that we’re settled in our new place. And since we’re not traveling anytime soon it seems like a good time. We don’t especially want kittens so tomorrow we’re doing a zoom meeting with the foster parent of two sisters that are about a year old. The humane society also has an older girl who is about nine. She sounds like she has the perfect personality for us but I literally said the exact same thing about the heartbreak coming too soon.
Sonora Shepherd
12-18-20, 9:03pm
My husband just turned on the Cotton Bowl that is in Arlington, TX. The stands are full - no apparent social distancing and no masks visible. So that will be a super spreader and the talk about a surge over a surge may happen. We are all trying so hard to mask, physical distance and then you turn on TV and see this. I just don't get it.
My husband just turned on the Cotton Bowl that is in Arlington, TX. The stands are full - no apparent social distancing and no masks visible. So that will be a super spreader and the talk about a surge over a surge may happen. We are all trying so hard to mask, physical distance and then you turn on TV and see this. I just don't get it.
I believe the Cotton Bowl will be played on Dec 30th this year. Are you sure he isn't watching a past game?
Sonora Shepherd
12-18-20, 10:30pm
"Notre Dame coach Brian Kelly and Clemson coach Dabo Sweeney slammed the possibility of playing the College Football Playoff without parents in attendance on Friday, suggesting the Rose Bowl should be moved to another location if it can't accommodate them." I think it is the ACC Championship Game. It seems like a live game. I hope it is an old game, but don't think it is.
"Notre Dame coach Brian Kelly and Clemson coach Dabo Sweeney slammed the possibility of playing the College Football Playoff without parents in attendance on Friday, suggesting the Rose Bowl should be moved to another location if it can't accommodate them." I think it is the ACC Championship Game. It seems like a live game. I hope it is an old game, but don't think it is.
The ACC Championship game is tomorrow. I believe there are 4 college games scheduled for today although there should be covid protocols in place for each, I believe that's an NCAA requirement.
I think most people are taking the precautions they consider reasonable. I think JP1 needs to come and Visit my block in my very blue city Biden for president signs, black live matter signs, rainbow declarations and etc. abound, and I can point to every household that has had out-of-state vacations by choice, many households with more than one, in the past few months. They use airplanes. Did they comply with each state’s quarantine requirement? I don’t know, but kinda makes you wonder. Again, these are all very liberal political voters.
A close friend, gay and Dem voter, related how he took so many precautions when he flew to California. Stayed three weeks. Stayed mostly in one place to visit our friends. Only they all piled into a car pile and traveled from California to another state to visit another set of our friends.
It’s all OK because he took precautions.
Like I said, everyone thinks they’re taking precautions. It’s silly that we as a society are painting this as a liberal and conservative issue. That’s not what I see in actual practice.
I think that the "following protocols or not" question is definitely bigger than team red vs. team blue. The non-followers can probably be divided into a few groups. At the low end of the economic spectrum there's a clear red group who just don't want to do the masking and not hugging and not getting together thing. Dozens of articles about random sad small rural counties are easily found to confirm this. Further up the economic spectrum there are a lot of people who refuse to follow the recommendations and are doing house parties and such. On up above that are the people who are probably wearing masks everywhere but still doing houseparties and getting on planes and whatever. All of them combined are the reason that we're in a death spiral from covid. Only the first group are politically specific. The rest are probably divided pretty equally between team red and team blue.
Personally I'd rather not die or bring covid into my home and kill SO with all his co-morbidities. Instead of whining about the restrictions like some people do, I tend to just get pissed at the stupidity of all the people who refuse to follow the guidance, regardless of where they are on the socio-economic spectrum or political spectrum. We will continue to take this seriously and hope that the vaccines will ultimately squash this.
Random perspective from a friend on facebook. Friend, before covid, traveled a lot. Both for personal and for professional reasons. For ten months now he has not gone anywhere. He's high risk, having had two heart attacks despite not yet being 50 and having his father die of a heart attack in his 30's. He's patiently (well, maybe not so patiently, but still, waiting) waiting until he's vaccinated before he gets out and does stuff. Because he likes to travel he used to be subscribed to "the points guy" on facebook. The points guy, as one might expect, offers tips on how to score deals if you are a frequent traveler. Friend announced yesterday that he stopped following "the points guy" because he's tired of half of "the points guy"'s followers trying to justify ignoring public health advisories just because they "can't possibly stay home" or "i need my miles!" or whatever stupid reason they come up with.
mschrisgo2
12-19-20, 3:30am
IrisLillies, might I suggest you foster a few kittens? Likely by the time they’re old enough to be adopted, you will have come to your.... senses, LOL
Here is an example of the idea that masks will save us. A coworker has been pressured by his family to fly to Florida, pick up granny, and fly back with her to Massachusetts so she can attend all the family holiday gatherings. He thinks it is a bad idea. I think it is a bad idea. But hey, they will wear masks on the plane and he will get a covid test before returning to work so what could go wrong?
The employee is back to work after picking granny up and flying her to Massachusetts. He got a test as soon as he returned. A senior friend of my mom's flew to Atlanta for Thanksgiving and got a test 2 days after she returned.
Yet I see in the news that there is a 5 day latency period for covid and you should quarantine 5 days after you return before being tested. But people don't want to sit around and quarantine so that is not going to happen and employers don't want to be short staffed so they won't require it. Mom's friend works part time and she was also right back to work.
JaneV2.0
12-19-20, 12:17pm
Our testing and contact tracing system is pathetic. In hard-hit areas, you're lucky if you're tested at all, let alone multiple times.
iris lilies
12-19-20, 12:51pm
IrisLillies, might I suggest you foster a few kittens? Likely by the time they’re old enough to be adopted, you will have come to your.... senses, LOL
That is a fantasy! I’m just afraid that I will be stuck with kittens that have not been adopted. That worries me very much.
I will confess that One reason whyI do Bulldog Rescue because there is a strong “market” for English bulldogs.I don’t do pitbull rescue because that is heartbreaking, I can’t get into that world. The world of English bulldogs is, if I stay away from the sad stories, happy and successful.
There are about 10 million cats that need to be adopted. That worries me so much.
Sonora Shepherd
12-19-20, 12:52pm
Alan is right. I have battle rattle. Thanks
iris lilies
12-19-20, 12:54pm
The employee is back to work after picking granny up and flying her to Massachusetts. He got a test as soon as he returned. A senior friend of my mom's flew to Atlanta for Thanksgiving and got a test 2 days after she returned.
Yet I see in the news that there is a 5 day latency period for covid and you should quarantine 5 days after you return before being tested. But people don't want to sit around and quarantine so that is not going to happen and employers don't want to be short staffed so they won't require it. Mom's friend works part time and she was also right back to work.
I heard the story on the radio, the radio host told it: a family wanted to have a 80th birthday party for their grandfather. Everyone got tested before the party. Everyone wore masks except when they were eating in their enclosed room in a restaurant.
Many people came down sick. I don’t know what the end result is and if anyone died but here’s what kills me: the host said “here they did everything right and they still get Covid!”
Nope, they did not do everything right, they had a party in an enclosed room with a bunch of people who are not wearing masks. That is not “doing it right. “
iris lilies
12-19-20, 1:43pm
I think that the "following protocols or not" question is definitely bigger than team red vs. team blue.
.
I didn’t get that from any of your posts over the past eight months. I thought it was only red state flyover country, trump voting, republican Neanderthals who were earning your ire.
I think you did not hit hard enough keyboard warriors who piously point out their own mask wearing. I mean it’s good that they’re wearing masks, it’s good that we all wear masks. I wear a mask when I know I’m going to be with humans! But I don’t need to bring attention to it. Nor do I need all levels of government to quack on about me wearing it.
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