View Full Version : Conavirus......
frugal-one
12-19-20, 2:01pm
IrisLillies, might I suggest you foster a few kittens? Likely by the time they’re old enough to be adopted, you will have come to your.... senses, LOL
And, perhaps, give you a reason to get new furniture?
IL ... You asked for more......
happystuff
12-19-20, 2:24pm
I heard the story on the radio, the radio host told it: a family wanted to have a 80th birthday party for their grandfather. Everyone got tested before the party. Everyone wore masks except when they were eating in their enclosed room in a restaurant.
Many people came down sick. I don’t know what the end result is and if anyone died but here’s what kills me: the host said “here they did everything right and they still get Covid!”
Nobody did not do everything right, they had a party in an enclosed room with a bunch of people who are not wearing masks. That is not “doing it right. “
And regardless of what they did, they were in a restaurant! Who cleaned it? Who served them?
iris lilies
12-19-20, 2:28pm
And, perhaps, give you a reason to get new furniture?
IL ... You asked for more......
new rugs. Any rugs for that matter. Peeing puppies ruin rugs and floors.
My current bulldog is super clean. he quivers in horror when our foster dog poops in the house.
Even with waiting 5 days then testing, you still might have a false negative. It’s at 10-14 days that you have reassurance that you won’t get it. There are no ways around the 10-14 days of quarantine. But people still try to cheat the system.
Nope, they did not do everything right, they had a party in an enclosed room with a bunch of people who are not wearing masks. That is not “doing it right. “
Exactly!
I wish they would at least admit that they broke the rules. But nope. They justify themselves.
ApatheticNoMore
12-19-20, 3:22pm
Exactly!
I wish they would at least admit that they broke the rules. But nope. They justify themselves.
If it was legal they DID NOT break the rules. Period. So was indoor dining legal there or not? Because if it was they did not break the rules.
Now was a smart thing to do? No, it was not.
But our government is ridiculous. It expects people to entirely figure out what the smart thing is to do on thier own, if it does not shut dangerous things down. The thing is noone can do this entirely and not everyone is extremely informed either, heck many are barely or are not literate in any population, don't speak the language very well and it gets lost in translation, etc.. So they aren't the informed consumers of their fantasies and the government officials do KNOW that. And even if one considers oneself informed, one knows that restaurants are dangerous: but there is an outdoor gym here, it sounds like a party going on all the time, it's partly outdoors has a tent roof, chain link fence partly covered for walls, but it is *partly* outdoors. Machines are probably bare 6 feet away, people are huffing and puffing, are they wearing masks, legally they need to be but I have no idea, let's assume so. Is that gym legal? Yea. Is it safe? I seriously think it's a superspreader event waiting to happen! But I don't actually have the knowledge to really figure out what the real risks of that gym are for certain (and yes I'd like to go to the gym, but I'm not risking covid). I understand about indoor spread, I understand about outdoor spread being many orders of magnitude less. I don't understand what the heck THAT is though. The advice about outdoor spread being relatively safe was probably for people distanced in a park or on the beach with no roof or walls and much more space between people, or for people briefly passing on a walk for 1 minute, not for a situation like that.
iris lilies
12-19-20, 3:43pm
If it was legal they DID NOT break the rules. Period. So was indoor dining legal there or not? Because if it was they did not break the rules.
Now was a smart thing to do? No, it was not.
...t.
yes, And I agree with most of the rest of your post too.
as for restaurants and that party – the restaurant around the corner from me, a block from me, is where I’m spending money these days. I didn’t go there often prior Covid but it’s a respectable restaurant, I know the owner, I know she struggling, and I can afford to drop dollars there.
So, of course we are required to wear masks when we go there and the servers wear masks. She set up two large tents outdoors with heaters. We ate there once last month with friends and it was charming, And I rather enjoyed the crisp air.But when I walk by there now the tents have sides. Only the ends ends have no coverings. So now I’m not willing to eat there outside again because I don’t see how that setup is significantly different from eating inside.
she has a large party room and I observed last week a wedding party occupying the space. There’s been at least one other party that I’ve seen there. While her indoor restaurant has tables spaced far apart, I couldn’t see that the party room was spaced differently than usual.
She also opened up a takeout deli which I initially groused about, but now I see the wisdom of it. So that is where I spend my weekly money with her establishment, in the takeout food area because I’m certainly not gonna sit inside during the winter,And the outside accommodations are barely different from inside.
Rules: I was referring not to the law, but to the recommendations from every epidemiologist in the world..
One more reason for IrisLilies to not get another pet just yet - wait until you get your allergy testing done to be sure that you are not developing animal allergies. It can start at any time in life and cats are the biggest offenders.
Nor do I need all levels of government to quack on about me wearing it.
You may not need the government to quack on about it but apparently other people do. When Kansas instituted a mask mandate in July they allowed counties to opt out because "muh freedumb" overrides keeping people safe. The counties that did the mandate saw their case counts start to fall. The "muh freedumb" counties saw their case rates double during the same time period.
https://fox4kc.com/news/virus-cases-dropped-in-kansas-counties-with-mask-orders-rose-in-those-without-cdc-report-says/
One more reason for IrisLilies to not get another pet just yet - wait until you get your allergy testing done to be sure that you are not developing animal allergies. It can start at any time in life and cats are the biggest offenders.
The founder of one of my favorite charities--a BC TNR organization called Tiny Kittens--is allergic to cats. She has several of her own and usually hosts another 10-20 convalescents or animals awaiting homes. The allergies don't seem to slow her down much.
iris lilies
12-19-20, 6:44pm
The founder of one of my favorite charities--a BC TNR organization called Tiny Kittens--is allergic to cats. She has several of her own and usually hosts another 10-20 convalescents or animals awaiting homes. The allergies don't seem to slow her down much.
Cat allergies can be pretty awful.
as a child .I had asthma, and no cats were allowed in our house because of that. I loved cats! At age 11 a well meaning family friend gave me a kitten. By then, my asthma had disappeared and my mom let me keep the cat. . I’ve had cats since then for 50+ years. Only when I get my fingers in my eyes after deep contact with cat is there a problem.
My current problem seems to be fall plant allergies. Or maybe something in a closed house, so yeah, I guess it could be dog allergy. But November was bad last year and this year.
Last year I was severely sick 4-5 times and those instances were when I was shut up in a closed room with 50-100 plants for garden club shows and workshops.
I'm allergic to penicillin, and I wonder about a dairy sensitivity. Otherwise, any allergic symptoms I have are negligible.
I have a friend who's had a few anaphylactic reactions to triggers she hasn't been able to identify. I'm wondering how she'll be able to handle the COVID vaccine.
Jane, she may be OK. Moderna, for one example, uses a different approach to develop vaccines. The story of the covid 19 vaccine from Moderna is really interesting.
https://www.bostonmagazine.com/health/2020/06/04/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine/
The NIH’s confidence stemmed from Moderna’s early-stage human trial data from 2019. In fact, that data was so encouraging that Bancel was set to announce in a few days’ time that the company would be doubling down on its vaccine-development program in 2020, with hopes of getting the world’s first mRNA vaccine—and what would be Moderna’s first licensed product—onto the market in the next few years.
The platform’s potential seemed limitless. If ultimately proven successful in large-scale human trials, mRNA vaccines would herald nothing short of a revolution akin to the advent of the steam engine when it comes to preventing infectious disease. For one thing, because mRNA vaccines don’t contain a pathogen, they are thought to be safer than traditional vaccines. They are also relatively easy to scale and produce—you can design any mRNA vaccine in the world on a computer and manufacture it in a single facility regardless of what disease it is for. Most important, using mRNA is a much faster way to make vaccines, which can normally take up to a decade to develop and test.
There is a new strain of covid in the UK that is 70% more contagious but has travel from the US to the UK been shut down? No, because elites like to travel.
Thanks for the info, Razz--that sounds very promising.
It would be reasonable to expect that the AstraZeneca vaccine will be approved. It's a traditional vaccine more like the flu vaccine and not an mRNA vaccine like Moderna and Pfizer. And there could be others. Whether this would have a higher risk of allergic or other reaction may be different or better. I think by the time a vaccine trickles down to us in the general population we will know more. It seems like prioritizing rest homes and assisted living with the most frail of populations could be a good indicator of safety, although it does seem either bold or overconfident.
My SIL was part of the phase 3 Pfizer trial. She just found out this week that she got the vaccine back in August. Only minor side effects (pain at injection site). She's a school nurse in St Louis county and is now probably going to be trained on administering it so that she can help with getting all the teachers and staff for the schools vaccinated.
Cat allergies can be pretty awful.
Yes, there’s a lot of variability between people. My sister has a car allergy but can’t give up her cats. She takes daily allergy pills and inhalers, and seems to do ok.
If I tried to live with a cat, even with meds, I would eventually end up in the hospital. That was the one allergen that was most difficult fir me to treat with allergy shots. I now at least can hug friends who own cats, when we visit somewhere without cats, without reacting. But I can’t ride in the same car as them unless the windows are open. In the past I had to sit several feet away from them or I would react. So I got slight improvement with shots. All the other allergies are greatly reduced.
Teacher Terry
12-20-20, 11:00am
I love cats and they love me but haven’t been able to be around them for the last 35 years.
dado potato
12-20-20, 8:56pm
There is a new strain of covid in the UK that is 70% more contagious but has travel from the US to the UK been shut down? No, because elites like to travel.
VUI-202012/01 is a new strain. Transportation into France via the Chunnel is shut down (but unaccompanied trailers or freight containers still are allowed into Calais). I understand that normally 10,000 trucks went through the Chunnel daily. London is "Tier 4" which in effect means stay at home... one member of a household may meet with one member of another household (as I understand it).
In British terminology VUI is an abbreviation for Variant Under Investigation. This variant was first identified in December, and the new strain is involved in more than 1,100 COVID-19 infections in the UK. It has also been reported in Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium and Australia.
The UK government raised the threat level to Tier 4 in London and surrounding counties. As of midnight 12/20-12/21 it is illegal to leave the Tier 4 area, except for essential travel. Matt Hancock, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care said in a BBC interview: the goal is to "keep the virus within London." He said "the new variant is out of control", and everybody in the Tier 4 area should act as though they have the virus.
New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said on Sunday that NYC has "about 6 flights per day coming from the UK, and we have done absolutely nothing". He said the federal government should either test all UK arrivals or institute a travel ban. Currently the U.S. government bans travelers from most European countries, including the UK. But the ban does not apply to U. S. citizens returning to the USA.
"This Week in Virology" podcast from 12/20 referred to the more contagious strain in England as unsubstantiated speculation. They said it is possible, but lacking evidence, and could just be a combination of a few of the usual super spreader events that have been seen everywhere.
rosarugosa
12-22-20, 9:30am
DH is getting his first vaccination shot today at the hospital where he works!
frugal-one
12-22-20, 1:33pm
This may be morbid to some but I feel very relieved and much better prepared. As I have mentioned previously, we have our estate plan in order. Yesterday DH and I had a discussion about what we should do if the other dies. Where to live, what needs to be done, and generally, how to make the best decision on how to care for ourselves. It was a way of helping each other cope and having foresight on what needs to be done. I cannot imagine having to think about these things when grieving. It really was very cathartic.
I am finally seeing active cases for my state being reported, which I think is a much more useful number than total cases.
RR do you know which vaccine he got?
ApatheticNoMore
12-22-20, 7:36pm
Well I just got lectured by a stranger for not wearing a mask taking a walk outside from someone on the other side of the street. We were on parallel sidewalks with a two way (just your usual suburban residential) street between us.
Yes fine, whatever, maybe I'm the reason there is a coronavirus pandemic, taking walks maskless and avoiding people (and avoid them I do - I cross the street to avoid people up ahead, it's not that dense this apartment and single family houses suburbia so yea I don't get within 12 or maybe more like 20 feet of people generally - outdoors). But sure maybe it turns out I AM the reason there is a coronavirus pandemic (perhaps I've infected the whole state with asymptomatic shedding from 20 feet away outdoors), just not from any experts I've followed.
ApatheticNoMore
12-22-20, 8:03pm
Though 2020: we had to wear masks, but we didn't have to wear bras! (working from home that is)
rosarugosa
12-22-20, 8:12pm
Jeppy: It was the Pfizer vaccine.
ANM: I guess there are extremists on both sides. I usually have my mask off until I see someone approaching, unless I'm in an area with a lot of pedestrian traffic (which I usually avoid).
With the new highly contagious UK variant of the virus combined with the vaccines we should get to herd immunity sooner rather than later. I call it the UK variant but experts believe it has already spread around the world.
Though 2020: we had to wear masks, but we didn't have to wear bras! (working from home that is)
I didn't even wear pants!
The outside mask standard here, both in suburbia and when I’m hiking, is that most people pull them frown if no one is around but pull them up as needed. In the city more people, including me, just leave them on for the entire time they are outside their home unless they are just standing in their driveway or something.
I can't think of any particularly good reason to bother with the mask when outside away from other people.
Teacher Terry
12-22-20, 10:29pm
I have it handy in case I have to walk past someone. APN, that person was being stupid since you weren’t near them.
I can't think of any particularly good reason to bother with the mask when outside away from other people.
Away from other people is key. On thanksgiving a lot of non hikers were out on the trail I hiked that day. None of them thought to bring a mask. It was the same sort of "amateur hour" experience that one has when one goes to an Irish pub on St Patrick's day or to a mexican restaurant on cinco de mayo and experiences all the non-big-drinkers acting like idiots. I ended up walking off into the brush several times to keep away from the ignorant fools.
I heard on NPR today that the Moderna vaccine is 95% effective after one dose. But of course the pharmaceutical companies want to sell more product so they are insisting two doses are needed, and the politicians who take their special interest money are falling in line.
In a local news story homeless people are now being vaccinated and this is one example of a group it will be hard to track down for second doses. One dose should be headline news. We can double the number of people we vaccinate quickly, and just in time as a worse strain than the UK one is spreading around from South Africa. But if the crisis ends soon, and things return to normal, politicians can no longer control people with fear.
I heard on NPR today that the Moderna vaccine is 95% effective after one dose. But of course the pharmaceutical companies want to sell more product so they are insisting two doses are needed, and the politicians who take their special interest money are falling in line.
Good god.
Here is a news story on getting just one dose:
https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2020/12/18/coronavirus-vaccine-single-dose-debate
Just heard on the news that 85 million Americans are going to be traveling this weekend. Ignoring the public health recommendations. This is why we need the ability to assess penalties against people as opposed to trusting people to do the right thing. 25% of the population thinks it’s more important to visit family and friends than keep themself and others safe. The selfish stupidity of so many Americans is astounding.
Teacher Terry
12-24-20, 1:48am
It’s like some people live in a cave and don’t watch the news. I don’t know anyone that’s traveling or gathering for Xmas. It’s depressing with the cases so high.
mschrisgo2
12-24-20, 2:23am
Just heard on the news that 85 million Americans are going to be traveling this weekend. Ignoring the public health recommendations. This is why we need the ability to assess penalties against people as opposed to trusting people to do the right thing. 25% of the population thinks it’s more important to visit family and friends than keep themself and others safe. The selfish stupidity of so many Americans is astounding.
“Stay home now, so that when we gather next holiday, no one is missing.”
Local news story "tips for how to travel safely" rather than "don't travel it's not safe".
iris lilies
12-24-20, 12:11pm
Just heard on the news that 85 million Americans are going to be traveling this weekend. Ignoring the public health recommendations. This is why we need the ability to assess penalties against people as opposed to trusting people to do the right thing. 25% of the population thinks it’s more important to visit family and friends than keep themself and others safe. The selfish stupidity of so many Americans is astounding.
Blind faith in “assessing penalties “that’s what I find absolutely astounding. As if.
iris lilies
12-24-20, 12:16pm
Oh also, I have friends who are in Austria right now. They are in Austria, wagging their fingers at dumb Americans who are just dumb because we are stupid.I know they’re in Austria because I was emailing one of them about canceling our May event because I think it’s delusional to continue planning for it and he said he agreed with me. Then he said oh yeah we’re in Austria and when we get back we’ll un-plan the event.
Ha Ha Ha. This stuff, Can’t make it up.
iris lilies
12-24-20, 12:18pm
It’s like some people live in a cave and don’t watch the news. I don’t know anyone that’s traveling or gathering for Xmas. It’s depressing with the cases so high.
That’s surprising to me that you don’t know anyone who is traveling. I know Many.
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-20, 12:40pm
It's depressing not just that cases are high but that here hospitals have had no capacity for weeks and no doubt weeks more to follow the holidays. It's such a background psychic strain on top of whatever other stresses life throws, knowing not just that covid is everywhere, but that there is no hospital capacity not only for covid but for ANYTHING. One re-thinks things like taking a drive to nowhere (which I've done out of pandemic boredom) because if one got in a car accident well there is no room at the hospitals etc.. Even non-emergency care is impacted as the line for urgent care is hours.
Why access penalties on people though, rather than shut down the airports? How seriously can anyone take potential penalties, when the airlines are booked up and flying in and out? There are other ways to travel but it certainly would send a message they were actually serious. Only 20% or so of people plan to travel for the holidays here though according to the news. But we have enough covid to give the rest of the country another wave if those vaccines don't come fast. Have some covid! It's on us. Cheers.
But everything is against public health recommendations including all human contact. Seeing my boyfriend even though we are a bubble of two, and I have stayed away when there have been covid outbreaks at his work, as we don't live together, ergo it's illegal. Visiting with anyone outdoors and distanced which I have done here and there etc.. And I'm a criminal, and have been nothing but a low down dirty criminal in the pandemic for seeing my partner etc. It is what it is, we all turn to a life of crime if we have to.
That’s surprising to me that you don’t know anyone who is traveling. I know Many.
I know many also and they have no shame. They write about it in their Christmas cards.
That’s surprising to me that you don’t know anyone who is traveling. I know Many.
I know far too many, and they seem to be people of all different political outlooks.
Everyone thinks they are special, and are immortal.
Teacher Terry
12-24-20, 1:32pm
We will visit outside with masks on in 39 degrees with my kids and exchange food to take home . They made goodies and I lasagna. My best friend dropped off dinner to her 86 year old mom and zoomed with her daughter and grandchildren who live in the same town. Her husband works in a casino.
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-20, 1:47pm
I think I would happily sleep for 3 days :). My bf can join me in bed if he wants :laff:
Oh I will probably get dragged in to meeting with people outside and distanced which is against the public health recommendations and in fact illegal, but also very low risk as things go. But I'd also be ok with not leaving my bed.
Speaking of super-spreaders:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9083617/United-Airlines-passenger-seen-performing-CPR-man-died-COVID-19-midflight.html?ito=push-notification&ci=62835&si=22991368
Note how no one feels it's their responsibility to contact-trace. We're just pathetic all around.
iris lilies
12-24-20, 2:15pm
It's depressing not just that cases are high but that here hospitals have had no capacity for weeks and no doubt weeks more to follow the holidays. It's such a background psychic strain on top of whatever other stresses life throws, knowing not just that covid is everywhere, but that there is no hospital capacity not only for covid but for ANYTHING. One re-thinks things like taking a drive to nowhere (which I've done out of pandemic boredom) because if one got in a car accident well there is no room at the hospitals etc.. Even non-emergency care is impacted as the line for urgent care is hours.
Why access penalties on people though, rather than shut down the airports? How seriously can anyone take potential penalties, when the airlines are booked up and flying in and out? There are other ways to travel but it certainly would send a message they were actually serious. Only 20% or so of people plan to travel for the holidays here though according to the news. But we have enough covid to give the rest of the country another wave if those vaccines don't come fast. Have some covid! It's on us. Cheers.
But everything is against public health recommendations including all human contact. Seeing my boyfriend even though we are a bubble of two, and I have stayed away when there have been covid outbreaks at his work, as we don't live together, ergo it's illegal. Visiting with anyone outdoors and distanced which I have done here and there etc.. And I'm a criminal, and have been nothing but a low down dirty criminal in the pandemic for seeing my partner etc. It is what it is, we all turn to a life of crime if we have to.
any comments, jp1?
frugal-one
12-24-20, 2:41pm
I'm with jp1. Emailed with Canadian friends and they are being fined if they break with protocol. Sounds like a plan! Maybe some of these privileged people would do what they should if they had some incentive?
iris lilies
12-24-20, 2:52pm
Ya’ll, Help me understand how fines work. Practically speaking. Here in my ZIP Code.
I mean really work, not in your fantasy work.
A pastor in my state was fined for holding church services in the spring. If what you're doing gets media attention you will be fined.
frugal-one
12-24-20, 3:29pm
A pastor in my state was fined for holding church services in the spring. If what you're doing gets media attention you will be fined.
As well he should have... what? church doesn't spread the virus??? moronic
frugal-one
12-24-20, 3:30pm
Ya’ll, Help me understand how fines work. Practically speaking. Here in my ZIP Code.
I mean really work, not in your fantasy work.
It depends on who is doing the enforcing. If everyone was on the same page it would be easier. As it is now, there is no "page."
iris lilies
12-24-20, 3:35pm
As well he should have... what? church doesn't spread the virus??? moronic
The churches I know are huge. These are all Catholic Churches built in the 1880s and 1890s as monuments to God and they soar upwards, but they also cover a lot of horizontal space. So 6 foot social distancing is not a problem, easy to do.
Is that a problem for you though? Will that bring down a fine, all seated 6 feet apart? What if they were seated 10 feet apart? What if they were seated one person in each pew and staggered?
iris lilies
12-24-20, 3:41pm
It depends on who is doing the enforcing. If everyone was on the same page it would be easier. As it is now, there is no "page."
I’m confused About what you mean because of course there are places with fines. Around here I don’t see fines attached to individual behavior. I see fines attached to business establishments and other establishments that provide gathering places.
I take the comments of JP one and you to me in an individual people should be fined. Maybe I’m wrong and that assumption, so please correct me if I am..
In your fantasy world I want to know how the fines work. We don’t all need to have a federal “page” if that’s what you mean, that is ridiculous.This kind of thing has always been handled at the local level. So describe for me the fine system where individual people are fined.
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-20, 3:43pm
Since the Supreme court ruling they kind of have to allow churches to be open. A bunch of people gather for religious services in a park nearby here. I cursed them under my breath knowing that all other gathering is illegal and here is a crowd of 15 or 20 being together and not even having to sneak around like criminals to do so. But actually even though they could gather indoors they are gathering sitting in chairs in a park with some distance between, they are really being quite safe and don't have to be. Probably a liberal church :laff:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ... or the right of the people peaceably to assemble..." is being ignored. And no, that the prohibitions come from the state level not Congress is no more acceptable than when states rights advocates thumbed their nose at the 14th Amendment with Jim Crow laws.
And there are many examples of hypocrisy by those issuing or advocating for covid edicts. It's okay to restrict others but I can have gatherings, I know the people I'm with (as if you can only get the virus from strangers), I was tested (only good for a pinpoint in time), etc.
ETA On the other hand nowhere is the right to fly in the Constitution. The airports could be shut down.
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-20, 4:13pm
I actually mostly advocate restrictions on business. Shut it down. Individuals there is no way to actually police that even though it is literally the only thing public health authorities seem to care about, individual behavior.
But since it's truly unenforcable, one can report a business in violation but can anyone possible catch all the individuals doing something, of course not. Business behavior is of course not perfectly enforceable, but individual behavior is not enforceable without everyone constantly snitching and keeping perfect watch if a car that doesn't live there parks in the street or etc..
So public health spends all their energy nagging about things they can't control, with very strict abstinence only nagging that many if not most ignore anyway, since human contact outdoors or in, masked or not, distanced or not, has been basically forbidden 7 out of 9 months of this pandemic.
frugal-one
12-24-20, 4:23pm
The churches I know are huge. These are all Catholic Churches built in the 1880s and 1890s as monuments to God and they soar upwards, but they also cover a lot of horizontal space. So 6 foot social distancing is not a problem, easy to do.
Is that a problem for you though? Will that bring down a fine, all seated 6 feet apart? What if they were seated 10 feet apart? What if they were seated one person in each pew and staggered?
As stated earlier, there would be no problem if everyone was on the same page. My personal opinion would not matter. It would be outlined what the rules are.
We all are required to wear seat belts.... why can't this be handled similarly?
Yay, it looks like I will get jabbed with the Moderna vaccine next week or the week after.
Yay, it looks like I will get jabbed with the Moderna vaccine next week or the week after.
I bet that will be a relief. I hope to get mine around March.
iris lilies
12-24-20, 4:54pm
As stated earlier, there would be no problem if everyone was on the same page. My personal opinion would not matter. It would be outlined what the rules are.
We all are required to wear seat belts.... why can't this be handled similarly?
We are not all required to wear seatbelts. We’ve had that discussion here before.
frugal-one
12-24-20, 4:59pm
We are not all required to wear seatbelts. We’ve had that discussion here before.
New Hampshire and American Samoa are the only state and territory without a seat belt law for adults. However, New Hampshire is currently considering a secondary adult seat belt law for all seats.Jul 23, 2020
....close enough
Maybe everyone whose BMI is high should be forbidden to eat anything containing sugar since obesity causes covid deaths.
Maybe tobacco should be outlawed since it correlates to lung problems that cause covid deaths.
No! That will hurt tobacco companies and the sellers of processed foods. And it's not enforceable. Let's do something else instead. Ban airline travel? Very enforceable but it will tick off the airline industry.
Let's mandate masks even though except for N95 ones specially fitted to one's face they don't stop covid. No special interests to offend there. And people who sell masks will be happy. Society is increasingly secular so let's ban some church services too. Religious people won't put up much of a fight, they are the meek of the earth.
What else can we do? Make everyone get a vaccine, even those who already had covid. Make them get two doses when only one is needed - double the pharmaceutical profits. Yay!
I bet that will be a relief. I hope to get mine around March.
Yes. I've been limiting my work responses to actual fire or rescue calls, and avoiding entirely any routine medical calls. It will be nice to be able to do more.
Just heard on the news that 85 million Americans are going to be traveling this weekend. Ignoring the public health recommendations. This is why we need the ability to assess penalties against people as opposed to trusting people to do the right thing. 25% of the population thinks it’s more important to visit family and friends than keep themself and others safe. The selfish stupidity of so many Americans is astounding.I'm currently about 900 miles from home with my wife and our dog. What type of penalties would you like to see enforced against us?
It’s like some people live in a cave and don’t watch the news. I don’t know anyone that’s traveling or gathering for Xmas. It’s depressing with the cases so high.I watch a lot of news and have elected to travel for Christmas, so, you sort of know me.
I watch a lot of news and have elected to travel for Christmas, so, you sort of know me.
I'd happily travel this weekend, but my yacht is hanging in slings at the boatyard having the bottom painted, and some engine/electrical maintenance.
I don't see how I could be more covid-free than at-sea miles away from anyone else. I can live for months unsupported there.
Now, hopping on a plane and flying to the UK to see my kid, not happening. Plan B for the kid involves a somewhat longer sea voyage....
iris lilies
12-24-20, 6:06pm
New Hampshire and American Samoa are the only state and territory without a seat belt law for adults. However, New Hampshire is currently considering a secondary adult seat belt law for all seats.Jul 23, 2020
....close enough
There are beaucoup exceptions. Perhaps you’re not capable of googling them? In case you’re not, here are some:
Everyone in the car must wear seatbelts,
...except for everyone behind the front seats (in my state.) In our station wagon that would’ve been 3/4 of people in the car not required to wear seatbelts
... except if you are driving on your own private land
...unless you have one of any of a dozen physical/health reasons that earns you an exemption ( Iowa law) I assume similar across all states)
to name a few exceptions
The overarching idea is that seatbelts are good and save lives/ prevent injuries, but individual exceptions, degree of penalty, and enforcement are left up to individual states. Just like now with coronavirus where the overarching idea is that precautions save lives and prevent long-term health problems, but individual states and locales determine what is appropriate, severity restrictions, and how enforcement is carried out.
Our local cops can’t even keep half of the lawbreakers around here from breaking obvious dangerous laws so I have no idea how they’re going to enforce coronavirus penalties. Well I do have an idea – they are not going to do it even if old Joe and Kamila deem it necessary.
Do you really think Congress and Joe will push through a federal law About coronavirus precautions and penalties so that everything is exactly the same in every jurisdiction?
Our local cops can’t even keep half of the lawbreakers around here from breaking obvious dangerous laws so I have no idea how they’re going to enforce coronavirus penalties. Well I do have an idea – they are not going to do it even if old Joe and Kamila deem it necessary.
Our local Sheriff, at the beginning of the pandemic, when we were adopting our local regulations, testified to the County Council and the Health Board that he would be unable to carry out any widespread enforcement efforts, as he simply didn't have the resources to do so.
Some folks quickly took that as a sign that he was a "science-denier" or whatnot, and tried to lynch the guy, but he was speaking truth. He doesn't have the resources to deal with our drunk drivers and speeders here - policing what goes on inside businesses and homes is simply beyond the capabilities of the department.
I could see Biden trying to deny covid aid to states that don't mandate masks or other things he wants. In the past states were strong armed into dropping their speed limits or else lose Federal highway aid.
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-20, 6:32pm
I probably don't have the BMI that sugar would have to be banned for me, so I can eat what I want, thank you genes. Because I've taken the genetic tests, and I don't have genes that predispose me to obesity as far as was tested. They predispose me to be very average weight influenced a bit up or down by environment. And indeed I am (come in under what is predicted guess that small amount is effort - but by and large I am where my genetics would land me, no more no less than my genetic destiny). No they don't predispose me to be thin alas, so that I can eat anything and not gain a pound and look like a model, but no predisposition to be overweight either. So sugar come to mama, haha, nah it's still not healthy of course, love it though I do.
Today's stats from my state - average age of covid hospitalization 69. Average age of covid death 80. Too bad we can't have regulations based on this, like we do at the other end of the spectrum (you can't drink until you're 21, drive until a certain age, etc). It would be nice if stores sanitized overnight, seniors could only shop early during senior hour, and the rest of us could breathe freely maskless in stores. There have been numerous times I feel nauseous like I can't breathe. Masks are awful.
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-20, 7:05pm
It would be nice if the few, and it is very few, people who can't breath in masks, discovered grocery delivery. And stopped whining, since most of us have no problem breathing in masks doing a grocery run.
There are plenty of exceptions to that "only disposable old people die of COVID." My friend's 40-something friend is a long-hauler with abnormal blood results, ongoing fatigue, and POTS even now, though she supposedly "recovered" from her infection in April. Masks have been shown to work over and over, and they're only a minor inconvenience for most people. I'm sorry you're having such a horrible time with this, Yppej.
There have been numerous times I feel nauseous like I can't breathe. Masks are awful.
I could intubate you if you want, so you have a basis for comparison.
frugal-one
12-24-20, 7:20pm
There are beaucoup exceptions. Perhaps you’re not capable of googling them? In case you’re not, here are some:
Everyone in the car must wear seatbelts,
...except for everyone behind the front seats (in my state.) In our station wagon that would’ve been 3/4 of people in the car not required to wear seatbelts
... except if you are driving on your own private land
...unless you have one of any of a dozen physical/health reasons that earns you an exemption ( Iowa law) I assume similar across all states)
to name a few exceptions
The overarching idea is that seatbelts are good and save lives/ prevent injuries, but individual exceptions, degree of penalty, and enforcement are left up to individual states. Just like now with coronavirus where the overarching idea is that precautions save lives and prevent long-term health problems, but individual states and locales determine what is appropriate, severity restrictions, and how enforcement is carried out.
Our local cops can’t even keep half of the lawbreakers around here from breaking obvious dangerous laws so I have no idea how they’re going to enforce coronavirus penalties. Well I do have an idea – they are not going to do it even if old Joe and Kamila deem it necessary.
Do you really think Congress and Joe will push through a federal law About coronavirus precautions and penalties so that everything is exactly the same in every jurisdiction?
You definitely are a trump republican.
iris lilies
12-24-20, 7:21pm
I could see Biden trying to deny covid aid to states that don't mandate masks or other things he wants. In the past states were strong armed into dropping their speed limits or else lose Federal highway aid.
That is true, the old pork tricks of The Swamp can be utilized.
iris lilies
12-24-20, 7:23pm
You definitely are a trump republican.
The topic wasn’t which lever I pulled in the voting booth. Deflection doesn’t continue the discussion.
frugal-one
12-24-20, 7:25pm
The topic wasn’t which lever I pulled in the voting booth. Deflection doesn’t continue the discussion.
What is the point? You watch Fox News and listen to Limbaugh for your education. There is no discussion.
frugal-one
12-24-20, 7:28pm
That is true, the old pork tricks of The Swamp can be utilized.
The Swamp is all the cronies trump now pardoned. And, many of the mealy-mouthed republicans who blindly follow him.
happystuff
12-24-20, 8:03pm
The churches I know are huge. These are all Catholic Churches built in the 1880s and 1890s as monuments to God and they soar upwards, but they also cover a lot of horizontal space. So 6 foot social distancing is not a problem, easy to do.
Is that a problem for you though? Will that bring down a fine, all seated 6 feet apart? What if they were seated 10 feet apart? What if they were seated one person in each pew and staggered?
Regardless of the space or how huge and regardless of fines, are they actually social distancing? Play "what if" as much as you want - it's what people are actually doing that is or isn't creating the problem(s).
I realize people are "tired" of being cautious or wearing masks or staying home, etc. and, personally, I'm at the point that if they choose to risk themselves - fine! As long as they are only risking themselves and NOT putting anyone else at risk.
happystuff
12-24-20, 8:12pm
Good grief! I thought once the election was over and with the holiday season here that the whining, name-calling, nastiness, complaining, pettiness, etc. would end - at least in this forum and/or for at least a little while - maybe.... I am proven wrong.
Merry Christmas, everyone. Wishing you all some peace, joy and happiness.
The topic wasn’t which lever I pulled in the voting booth. Deflection doesn’t continue the discussion.
IL while I do not always agree with you I vouch for you as a former librarian well versed in thoughtfully evaluating sources of information and not a political hack.
iris lilies
12-24-20, 8:51pm
What is the point? You watch Fox News and listen to Limbaugh for your education. There is no discussion.
here is what you said: We all are required to wear seat belts.... why can't this be handled similarly?
while it is always difficult to know what you mean, here I think you are saying that there are uniform laws for seatbelts.
I showed you the seatbelt laws aren't as uniform as you think and certainly don’t restrict “ all” to belt wearing. Given how simple belt/no belt is in concept compared to Covid restrictions, I think exceptions and governance are quite varied.
With every state having coronavirus restrictions, there already *IS* a uniformity in that states have addressed it. States are limiting the same kinds of things.
I am not an advocate of there being no government interference of any kind for Covid restrictions. Guidelines from health departments are useful, and restrictions of certain public gathering places seem prudent, but the heavy hand of government cannot entirely solve this, and the heavy hand of the Feds needs to stay the fk out of it. I am an advocate of people taking individual responsibility, government action of fining individuals is ineffective.
iris lilies
12-24-20, 8:53pm
IL while I do not always agree with you I vouch for you as a former librarian well versed in thoughtfully evaluating sources of information and not a political hack.
i have told frugal-one multiple times I dont watch Fox news, I dont watch any tv news. i do tune into
Rush now and then for bits and pieces, not his “news” but his analysis, especially of Republican strategy.
IL doesn't seem like a Trump-ite to me.
Teacher Terry
12-25-20, 1:32am
Alan, your RV trip sounds safe to me. The rest of you children quit arguing on Xmas:))
iris lilies
12-25-20, 11:17am
Alan, your RV trip sounds safe to me. The rest of you children quit arguing on Xmas:))
Ohhhhh, mom....
:)
gimmethesimplelife
12-25-20, 6:31pm
I know you are all likely tired of hearing about "the 85006" - this is about health, not.politics. For once.
Last night I found out that the 85006 on 11/29 had the highest # of active covid cases in all Arizona zip codes.
And pretty much most that I see anyway are wearing masks. Not good. Rob
frugal-one
12-25-20, 6:50pm
Just heard about 3 more people I know who have COVID. One is in the hospital fighting for his life.
iris lilies
12-25-20, 6:52pm
My zip code is, on a Covid 5 point scale where 5 is bad per capital infection, a 4.
But the City of st louis is less in infection per capita than nearby counties.
I know you are all likely tired of hearing about "the 85006" - this is about health, not.politics. For once.
Last night I found out that the 85006 on 11/29 had the highest # of active covid cases in all Arizona zip codes.
And pretty much most that I see anyway are wearing masks. Not good. Rob
I have always said that masks provide a false sense of security and lead people to engage in risky behavior.
ApatheticNoMore
12-26-20, 2:29am
you will look long and hard to find a correlation between MORE mask wearing and more covid. Because I've never heard of such a thing and doubt very much it exists. But there are correlations to things like poverty. It's tied to having to go to high risk jobs and living in crowded conditions. Of course if there are high risk gatherings going on it doesn't help either.
At a certain point some are going to engage in risky behavior not because they are obsessed with masks, but just out of quarantine exhaustion in a seemingly never-ending (but it will end eventually) pandemic.
gimmethesimplelife
12-26-20, 9:46pm
And now there are new strains popping up. I just wish we were on the other side of this. Rob
As kind of a connoisseur of commercials, I give this one highest marks for being on target for this pandemic year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDjlrVTPPQI&ab_channel=wallytron101
iris lilies
12-27-20, 2:21pm
As kind of a connoisseur of commercials, I give this one highest marks for being on target for this pandemic year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDjlrVTPPQI&ab_channel=wallytron101
Great! That particular version didn’t run audio for me but I looked up another version on YouTube to get the whole thing.
I’m sure 41 is old in some person’s mind. And it’s just a fluke that there are lots of pics on Twitter and such with him at White House level stupid mask free events. Yay freedumb?
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEC1a77Zcxu9ySIAPP43tPy8qGQgEKhAIACoHCAowocv1Cj CSptoCMPrTpgU?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
Letlow crashed in what seems to be record time. Scary business.
iris lilies
12-30-20, 3:12pm
I’m sure 41 is old in some person’s mind. And it’s just a fluke that there are lots of pics on Twitter and such with him at White House level stupid mask free events. Yay freedumb?
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEC1a77Zcxu9ySIAPP43tPy8qGQgEKhAIACoHCAowocv1Cj CSptoCMPrTpgU?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
Yes, I think it’s too bad that someone so young succumbed to this disease, seemingly at random. I can’t tell from your post if you think it’s too bad or not. Really hard to tell.
The confusing thing to me is that there is a perception (and maybe it's true) that the virus hits those hardest with pre-existing conditions even if they are quite young. Is it really so random as to pick off supposedly healthy people?
catherine
12-30-20, 3:18pm
I think it's a tragedy that Letlow died, leaving two young children behind. 41 is far too young, especially with such a promising future ahead of him. COVID sucks.
If you search for "18 year old dies of COVID" you find a startling number of hits--people who had no apparent reason to die. Also, a recently-vaccinated health care worker came down with it about a week after his shot. Thankfully, he's recovering.
Re Letlow, I don't know why anyone in their right mind would go to a mask-free White House function after so many have contracted COVID there. But Trump said it was no big deal (after he got the super-duper extra special five star cocktail), so...
ApatheticNoMore
12-30-20, 3:40pm
The confusing thing to me is that there is a perception (and maybe it's true) that the virus hits those hardest with pre-existing conditions even if they are quite young. Is it really so random as to pick off supposedly healthy people?
It does hit hardest those with preexisting conditions, but like I have said I have read the data coming out from public health daily enough times, there is almost always some in the 30-49 year old group (that's how they batch ages) with no pre-existings felled by it daily here. And yet people keep insisting on arguing it's not happening. >8)
Is it super high risk for that group? No, but it's not no risk. It's much lower risk for the under 30 group. If you don't wear a mask when exposed you probably will get a higher viral load and thus a worse case of it, so there is that.
"s it super high risk for that group? No, but it's not no risk. It's much lower risk for the under 30 group. If you don't wear a mask when exposed you probably will get a higher viral load and thus a worse case of it, so there is that."
Viral load seems a key part of how hard you're hit by COVID, all in all.
Yes, I think it’s too bad that someone so young succumbed to this disease, seemingly at random. I can’t tell from your post if you think it’s too bad or not. Really hard to tell.
There doesn’t seem to be any shortage of grave dancing out there.
Yes, I think it’s too bad that someone so young succumbed to this disease, seemingly at random. I can’t tell from your post if you think it’s too bad or not. Really hard to tell.
It absolutely is a tragedy. The shameful anti-leadership of Trump has caused countless people to behave like him and put their lives at risk. Every single one of the resulting deaths is a tragedy.
"It's a hoax"
"It's going to go away like magic"
"I can't recognize you. Is that a mask? No way. Are you wearing a mask? I've never seen her in a mask, Look at you. Oh, she's being very politically correct."
The confusing thing to me is that there is a perception (and maybe it's true) that the virus hits those hardest with pre-existing conditions even if they are quite young. Is it really so random as to pick off supposedly healthy people?
Yes. Children and teens have died also.
Why isn’t California doing better? Haven’t things been pretty much locked down, at least for most people. Is the leadership out there not doing their job?
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-30/california-hits-new-one-day-covid-19-death-record-442
iris lilies
12-30-20, 5:59pm
Why isn’t California doing better? Haven’t things been pretty much locked down, at least for most people. Is the leadership out there not doing their job?
I was waiting for somebody to mention this.
https://www.ksro.com/2020/12/28/california-registering-highest-number-of-daily-cases-per-capita-in-the-country/
And it’s per capita
Some parts of California leadership has been good. San Francisco county has had 184 deaths from a population of just under 1m. By far the worst bay area county is Marin at 541 deaths per million. That's certainly far better than the 1,041 deaths per million nationwide, or the rate in a variety of states like ND at 1,885 per million or KS at 955 deaths per million, or SD at 1,777 or Florida at 1,123 per million.
Looking at random countries around the world it's very clear that effective national leadership played/is playing a big role in how this pandemic affected them. And that leadership needs to be at the federal level. When you have millions and millions of people traveling all over the country to kill off their family and friends for the holidays there's only so much local leaders can do to slow the spread. There's simply no other rational explanation for why Sweden has 844 deaths per million but Norway and Finland are at 66 and 101, or Australia at 40.
frugal-one
12-30-20, 6:22pm
There doesn’t seem to be any shortage of grave dancing out there.
That is a terrible thing to say.
frugal-one
12-30-20, 6:35pm
Watched an interesting 60 Minutes episode a few weeks ago. They interviewed an early 40+ year old doctor who was working with people her age or younger who had contracted the virus. These people were called “long haulers”. The interviewer asked her if these symptoms were all in their heads? Her response was “then it is in my head too”. The shocking thing was that from the time this show was filmed to the time it aired, this 40ish doctor died from a heart attack! My point being.. people of all ages are being affected .. not necessarily dying but having continual complications.
It is disgusting that the trump administration knew how deadly this virus was as far back as last January and downplayed it ... hoping for herd immunity??? It sure backfired!
There doesn’t seem to be any shortage of grave dancing out there.
That is a terrible thing to say.
No, it's a terrible thing to do, showing disapproval of the practice is the right and proper response.
frugal-one
12-30-20, 6:50pm
No, it's a terrible thing to do, showing disapproval of the practice is the right and proper response.
Who are you suggesting is doing this? I don’t think anyone here. The only remarks I see are those stating the obvious.... wear a mask and don’t attend large gatherings.
ApatheticNoMore
12-30-20, 7:07pm
Depends what you mean by locked down. Malls open, allegedly with limited capacity but doesn't seem enforced. Non-essential retail open, allegedly with limited capacity but not enforced (truthfully some retail is not doing well enough to exceed capacity anyway - so only for some places is capacity even a actual issue). Grocery stores, open of course, allegedly with capacity restrictions, I have not seen it, been a bit crowded and I go off hours, so capacity restrictions yea I don't know if anyone is enforcing that. Indoor and outdoor dining and bars are closed, some may be operating illegally but that is a clear-cut law and most obey it. Personal services closed, I've seen illegal operations, but again a clear-cut law. Indoor gyms closed but outdoor gyms packed and have tent roofs and chain link fences, probably very little air flow (it's one of those things that no studies have been done on transmission, but that sets off all my spidey senses as being unsafe). Schools, some public schools are closed but many exceptions granted for special needs etc., private schools open. Airports? Wide open.
I think maybe it's just our turn, since just about every part of the country was hit hard at some point. I mean if you look at the areas affected in California it's basically a correlation with poverty. However every part of the country has had their turn. Of course on the off chance it's because we have the more contagious strain then right about now the whole country will. Because people traveled for xmas, the usual empty streets, so if we had more of a worse strain it's coming to a place near you.
I was waiting for somebody to mention this.
I've mentioned it several times as evidence that a mask mandate doesn't stop covid, once in the summer and once recently. I'm not on your Ignore List am I?
ApatheticNoMore
12-30-20, 7:19pm
Lots of conflation between whether a mask mandate stops covid and whether masks stop covid though. These aren't the same claim. Just because masks are mandated doesn't mean people aren't gathering without masks. It doesn't even mean there is enforcement (and you can't enforce every private gathering), it doesn't even mean there has been widespread communication (look yea I know about it, but how much communication going on in multiple languages? I've heard not enough)
So in all likelihood we have no idea how much masking is going on in cases of covid transmission, we simply WON'T have it through contract tracing as contract tracing is almost unbelievably ineffective here (some countries manage but really not happening here), we do have studies on masks blocking particles though. I will continue wearing N95s to protect myself from all the other people who can't wait to infect me at the grocery store or something. Yea you aren't going to.
Concise and fair summary of the pandemic throughout 2020:
https://lifehacker.com/a-timeline-of-the-coronavirus-in-2020-1845968286
That is a terrible thing to say.
And utterly inaccurate. But you have to consider the source.
And utterly inaccurate. But you have to consider the source.
There is no shortage of gloating commentary over this guy’s death. You’d need a blind spot the size of Jupiter to miss it.
“Yay freedumb”?
I am not the only one who finds covid restrictions unconstitutional.
In Vermont a town is planning to sue the governor:
https://www.vpr.org/post/reporter-debrief-stamford-select-board-seeks-sue-scott-over-covid-restrictions#stream/0
I hope they have better luck than those who filed suit in Massachusetts:
https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2020/12/massachusetts-supreme-judicial-court-upholds-gov-charlie-bakers-executive-orders-to-combat-covid-pandemic.html
Meanwhile people are so worked up in New Hampshire the governor had to cancel his inaugural address:
https://www.wmur.com/article/chris-sununu-2021-inauguration-canceled/35097969
I am betting if these 3 Republican governors run for re-election they will all get primaried from the right.
frugal-one
12-30-20, 9:22pm
And utterly inaccurate. But you have to consider the source.
Yeah, as if anyone would be grave dancing. Disparaging comment.
frugal-one
12-30-20, 9:30pm
There is no shortage of gloating commentary over this guy’s death. You’d need a blind spot the size of Jupiter to miss it.
“Yay freedumb”?
That is not gloating but reiterating the guy did not take precautions such as wearing a mask or staying away from large gatherings. He took his cue from the president ... restricting his "freedom". Most people would now agree this was not in his best interest.... or anyone's for that matter.
ApatheticNoMore
12-30-20, 9:34pm
And someday we'll have a pandemic much worse than covid-19 which is not good but not the worst we could have gotten. And maybe someday soon due to a lot of unsustainable factors (climate change etc.). It might be more like the Spanish flu in it's death toll. And those who have sue-ed states if they succeed (but they mostly don't and that's cause for hope) will have dismantled any ability to fight it. Because really they can't think through the impact of laws not just on the present pandemic which may not effect their precious selves, but on the future and possible pandemics that may occur then, some like the Spanish flu which kill not primarily "disposable old people" but young people etc..
There is no shortage of gloating commentary over this guy’s death. You’d need a blind spot the size of Jupiter to miss it.
“Yay freedumb”?
One person's gloating is another person's pointing out that stupid behavior begets stupid prizes.
Yay freedumb is SD and ND not implementing any of the recommended restrictions to keep people safe and ending up with way higher death tolls than everyone in the Republic Party's favorite punching bag state, California.
Yay freedumb is not being outraged at a federal response that was at best ineffective and at worst oftentimes actively harmful towards limiting the spread of this disease.
Yay freedumb is invoking the Defense Production Act not to increase production of PPE or ventilators or anything else to actually help the pandemic, but instead to use it to force meat packing workers to go to work in unsafe conditions.
Yay freedumb is the republican's repeated efforts to insert into every pandemic relief bill an elimination of liability for employers who don't attempt to provide a safe working environment for their employees.
Yay freedumb is finding the federal government's failed response to this pandemic acceptable because one belongs to a political party that believes government never does anything right, and then looking at other people's rightful rage at this and not believing it to be rage but instead joyful gloating. Dead people are nothing to gloat about. But for some of us they are something to be enraged by when those deaths could have been prevented.
I am not the only one who finds covid restrictions unconstitutional.
Where did you go to law school? Same place you got your medical degree?
Do emergencies justify taking away people's rights? Roosevelt thought so when he interned Japanese Americans. But he was wrong. Panic fueled responses are usually wrong.
Depends on whether one believes they have the right to infect others with a potentially deadly disease.
There is no shortage of gloating commentary over this guy’s death. You’d need a blind spot the size of Jupiter to miss it.
I saw the conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter, but totally missed any such a thing in any news source I follow. Maybe it's in the twitters and tweets that I don't follow or I need an eye exam.
Teacher Terry
12-31-20, 11:33am
The rights of the many can supersede the rights of a individual.
I've seen no gloating over Letlow's death, but early articles reported his wife didn't want him to go to the White House event.
Yay freedumb is the president hosting a non-socially distanced, non-masked super spreader event at his resort (or is it his home?) on the same day that Florida had the highest number of cases reported so far.
I've mentioned it several times as evidence that a mask mandate doesn't stop covid, once in the summer and once recently. I'm not on your Ignore List am I?
No response so I think I am.
Some researchers have suggested resorative sleep and/or melatonin as a preventative/treatment for COVID-19.
https://nypost.com/2020/12/29/scientists-study-melatonin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/?fbclid=IwAR114TvIBSCYWFrnBVku4glCrL6tOeiXg0YcCAq8 Tc4AecCotZGFHZPbD_g
iris lilies
1-2-21, 12:11pm
I've mentioned it several times as evidence that a mask mandate doesn't stop covid, once in the summer and once recently. I'm not on your Ignore List am I?
No, you are not on my ignore list. I just didn’t see it. No one is on my ignore list on this forum. That is not true for other forums ;)
I think ANM is kinda/sorta right in that the infection rate is going to go around at a similar level at some point. It is CA’s
“ turn “more or less. I thought that when the coasts were heavily infected and we are in the Midwest where not, then it would get to us eventually. And it did.We went for a month in Gasconade County, the county of our Herman house, with very few cases and no deaths.And it hit the nursing home in Herman and took out a couple dozen people. Tragic.
Both McConnell and Pelosi's homes have now been vandalized by people upset over the covid response. While this is not the tactic I would employ they have the right target, as opposed to those who hassle front line hotel or store workers tasked with asking people to wear a mask.
I am very happy to see the UK is giving everyone one dose of vaccine before they give second doses. This is utilitarianism at its best.
Teacher Terry
1-3-21, 1:06pm
Yppej, I totally agree with you.
Some poor Dollar Store employee (IIRC) was shot to death trying to prevent a customer from entering without a mask.
I wonder on a daily basis what is wrong with people.
ApatheticNoMore
1-3-21, 1:29pm
Some poor Dollar Store (IIRC) was shot to death trying to prevent a customer from entering without a mask.
I wonder on a daily basis what is wrong with people.
they just took the "freedom is the right to kill other people" (by spreading virus) one step further, eliminating the middle man as it were.
We got a call from our son in Sacramento the other day and both he and his wife have Covid. She had been in the hospital for three days on oxygen over Christmas but they waited to tell us. He was still struggling. They are both in their 30's, in shape with no preconditions. Both work from home and get most things delivered. Scary..............
So sorry to hear this, Simplemind. I hope they both are OK.
Every time I hear the ignorant "It's just the flu" I want to scream. It's scary because it's so unpredictable, and very unlike any flu I've ever heard of.
I'm glad your DIL is out of the hospital, and I hope they both continue to improve, Simplemind.
Teacher Terry
1-3-21, 3:40pm
SM, that’s scary and I hope they both recover quickly.
My mother's two neighbors, both in their late '70s, just tested positive, and frankly aren't doing all that well.
They have happily ignored our travel restrictions, our social gathering restrictions, and our mask requirements for the duration of the pandemic, including proudly travelling all over the place. They came back from their Christmas trip to a covid hotspot, where they engaged in large-scale family festivities.
So sometime soon I'll have to put on the hazmat suit to go transfer them to a higher level of care, or to the cemetary.
Today I was remembering how when I complained about masks (which I wear as required by law) some here said if I got sick with covid I should be left to die. I wonder if they are advocating that now for all the people who travelled over the holidays or went to multi household gatherings. It would free up some hospital beds.
Today I was remembering how when I complained about masks (which I wear as required by law) some here said if I got sick with covid I should be left to die. I wonder if they are advocating that now for all the people who travelled over the holidays or went to multi household gatherings. It would free up some hospital beds.
To be fair, I believe any such comments were prompted by your statements that you were going to poke holes in your mask, and another time that you were going to wear a sneezed-in mask inside out so as to share your germs. I don't think anyone here genuinely wishes you ill or dead.
To be fair, I believe any such comments were prompted by your statements that you were going to poke holes in your mask, and another time that you were going to wear a sneezed-in mask inside out so as to share your germs. I don't think anyone here genuinely wishes you ill or dead.
Actually the nasty comments predated either of the posts you mentioned. It was part of a cultlike groupthink that anyone who questions masks is evil. Well now we have people wearing masks on airplanes spreading highly virulent strains of covid from South Africa to the UK to Canada to the US to the rest of the world. Turns out those masks aren't that efficacious.
Apparently, that South African mutation is troubling--its virus spikes have changed, leading to questions about whether current vaccines will be effective against it.
iris lilies
1-5-21, 10:42am
Actually the nasty comments predated either of the posts you mentioned. It was part of a cultlike groupthink that anyone who questions masks is evil. Well now we have people wearing masks on airplanes spreading highly virulent strains of covid from South Africa to the UK to Canada to the US to the rest of the world. Turns out those masks aren't that efficacious.
Do you believe us mask wearing sheep think masks are 100% effective? I can’t speak for other sheep, but I know masks are not 100% effective, they are one tool in the arsenal of limiting Covid virus.
as for airplanes – I haven’t figured out if they are fairly safe or not. I keep reading about people who think the increased air circulation on airplanes plus masking and face shielding it’s pretty effective. I can’t see how gathering together in airports with hundreds of people is that all safe, to me that seems like a super spreader event.
happystuff
1-5-21, 10:49am
Actually the nasty comments predated either of the posts you mentioned. It was part of a cultlike groupthink that anyone who questions masks is evil. Well now we have people wearing masks on airplanes spreading highly virulent strains of covid from South Africa to the UK to Canada to the US to the rest of the world. Turns out those masks aren't that efficacious.
Personally, I think you have reached the point of "trolling" for an argument. However, I continue to wish you health and happiness, regardless of your own cult-like group think against mask wearing.
Yppej, for what it is worth, I too believe you were bullied here and were the target of the kind of remarks that you stated, quite early on.
I know that is an unpopular opinion, but it really saddened me what was said to you here and how you were treated. I also think that there will be no change in how you are treated, so if you do not like it, I would suggest not posting about masks, because it seems to enrage people, who then wish you ill health.
I would pick a different forum if you do not wish to receive abuse in response.
Again, the remarks to you here had a lot with why I don't want to participate on this thread, and that's all I am going to say. I will probably receive my own abuse for saying that about your comments.
Frankly, I don't much care what people think of masks, as long as they wear them properly and wherever appropriate. It's the maskless "freedom fighters" bleating about conspiracies while nonchalantly spreading the virus that make me angry.
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-21, 3:00pm
It was less the anti-masking that annoyed me as the open up stuff, I saw it a direct threat to peoples lives. Maybe my own and my loved ones. But that matters less than politeness or something, whatever. Hold my will to live against me and you can kindly go, oh the politeness police are out, can kindly go ... jump in a lake.
It really horrified me we had insane lunatics protest public health orders, was beyond what I thought possible for the people of this country, but I way underestimate the power and numbers and level of insanity of the lunatic right wing fringe obviously.
Now at that point I still think we could have adopted a real strategy to CRUSH not just flatten the virus. That's what I wanted. And provide people with whatever economic help is needed to accomplish it and open up again afterwards. But like most western countries we didn't. Why is a question for the history books. Nor was economic help provided to accomplish it. Which incidentally was the answer: provide help, crush the virus. But it didn't happen. Maybe what is scientifically possible (and it is, the countries that did it are proof) is not politically and socially possible (yea maybe even with or without orange moron, but of course orange moron made everything 1000 times worse). My respect for Eastern culture and society just increases over time btw.
On masks: saying it's people who question masks is of course a strawman. Questioning is one thing, I go on what the best consensus of what we know about how this virus spreads at the time is, realizing science evolves. That was and still is: that masks reduce spread. The poking holes in a mask and wearing a mask with snot inside outstuff was just a bunch of nasty trolling.
As for airplanes, I hear they may not be that dangerous for covid either, but the gatherings that follow can be, I mean not that many people fly just to fly without seeing other human beings after etc..
Well, after 291 pages and over 350,000 deaths, we've established that Yppej is the victim....
Hong Kong has been studying whether flying is a high risk activity. From the beginning they have been testing everyone who arrives, making them quarantine 14 days, and then testing them a second time so they have good data on who was infected before they got on the plane vs. who got infected while on the plane. Since some airlines, particularly Emirates airline, is ADAMANT about everyone wearing a mask the whole time they are on board, the Hong Kong authorities have been able to compare whether diligent mask wearing on a plane works to prevent spread. Short answer, yes. But only if everyone on the plane keeps their mask on for the duration. Longer answer, based on what I've read about mask wearing on US planes I won't be getting on one until after I've been vaccinated.
Freedman looked at all Emirates flights from Dubai to Hong Kong between June 16 and July 5. What he found is quite telling. During those three weeks, Emirates had five flights with seven or more infected passengers on each flight, for a total of 58 coronavirus-positive passengers flying on eight-hour trips. And yet, nobody else on the planes — none of the other 1,500 to 2,000 passengers — picked up the virus, Freedman and his colleague report in the Journal of Travel Medicine.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/10/20/925892185/do-masks-really-cut-your-risk-of-catching-covid-19-on-long-plane-flights
dado potato
1-5-21, 4:12pm
The new variant, known in the USA as B.1.1.7, has been detected in CO, CA, FL, and NY. It is highly likely to be spreading in other states without having been detected. The severity of the infection and the mortality rate is not measurably worse than earlier COVID-19 infections, but this mutant appears to be more transmissible. According to an article in the NY Times, some virologists have estimated B.1.1.7 to be 20% more transmissible... or 50%... or 70%... One theory is more of the B.1.1.7 variant accumulates in the nose and is spread on tiny droplets as the carrier exhales.
The NYT article predicted that B.1.1.7 will become the dominant form of COVID-19 virus in the USA by March. I would expect more US hospitals will reach their limits of capacity and ration care.
This variant was first identified in UK. On Monday 1/4/2021 Prime Minister Boris Johnson placed the UK under the highest level lockdown. The government is once again instructing you to stay at home. People in the UK will be allowed to leave their homes for limited reasons such as shopping for essentials, exercise, medical assistance, or to escape domestic abuse.
Places of worship will remain open on the basis that attendees adhere to social distancing.
Schools will be closed to all except the children of key workers and vulnerable children.
Outdoor sports venues will be closed.
The new variant has led to rising cases almost everywhere in the UK. Hospitalization increased 30% compared a one week earlier. UK Chief Medical Officers stated on 1/4/2021 We are not confident that the National Health Service can handle a further sustained rise in cases, and without further action there is a material risk of the NHS in several areas being overwhelmed over the next 21 days
B.1.1.7 was first known in the UK as VUI-2020 12/1 {Variant under Investigation} and later as VOC 2020/12/1 {Variant of Concern}.
Sending Healing Vibes across the Water,
All Through the Night
iris lilies
1-5-21, 4:42pm
Hong Kong has been studying whether flying is a high risk activity. From the beginning they have been testing everyone who arrives, making them quarantine 14 days, and then testing them a second time so they have good data on who was infected before they got on the plane vs. who got infected while on the plane. Since some airlines, particularly Emirates airline, is ADAMANT about everyone wearing a mask the whole time they are on board, the Hong Kong authorities have been able to compare whether diligent mask wearing on a plane works to prevent spread. Short answer, yes. But only if everyone on the plane keeps their mask on for the duration. Longer answer, based on what I've read about mask wearing on US planes I won't be getting on one until after I've been vaccinated.
Freedman looked at all Emirates flights from Dubai to Hong Kong between June 16 and July 5. What he found is quite telling. During those three weeks, Emirates had five flights with seven or more infected passengers on each flight, for a total of 58 coronavirus-positive passengers flying on eight-hour trips. And yet, nobody else on the planes — none of the other 1,500 to 2,000 passengers — picked up the virus, Freedman and his colleague report in the Journal of Travel Medicine.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/10/20/925892185/do-masks-really-cut-your-risk-of-catching-covid-19-on-long-plane-flights
What about long flights I mean those 8+ Hour flights, where people are eating. Clearly they’re not wearing masks then.
I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t be a requirement from all airlines to wear the mask all the time During the flight.
And then when they’re milling about in the airline terminals, there’s no one airline in charge to tell them to put on a mask.
It all sounds sketchy to me, but so many people are flying! So many Of our friends and online acquaintances find reasons But it is OK to fly, and I’m talking about pleasure trips.
It’s good there was an actual study about airflight and Covid.
My anecdotal information about flying from people that I know who are still flying is that on US airlines enforcement of masks is hit or miss with people oftentimes following the mask requirements as if they were in a flying restaurant eating a long slow meal. And stories of passengers pulling the mask down off their nose and then pretending to be asleep, forcing the flight attendant to either ‘wake’ them or ignore the violation, etc.
I just checked Emirates web site and they are still serving food. I wonder if they are enforcing some sort of eating time limit.
I agree with you, iris, it seems sketchy and is simply not a risk I’m willing to take. One of our best friends who has probably been the most quarantiney of anyone I know recently started a new job for a company headquartered in AZ. They insisted that he go there for three days of in person planning meetings because apparently in AZ people are still doing that sort of thing. He was beyond livid.
New Zealand with no masks and no business closures but also no travel into the country is a great success.
New Zealand with no masks and no business closures but also no travel into the country is a great success.
And a real monthlong lockdown right at the start. Other countries like Australia had to shut things down and wear masks but people took it seriously and they mostly have it under control. Certainly far better than our whiny country.
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-21, 6:37pm
New Zealand with no masks and no business closures but also no travel into the country is a great success.
New Zealand had business closures in the spring, a very strict lockdown, precisely the measures yeppej opposed here with all the support for opening up long before the virus was crushed. And New Zealand again had restrictions in parts of the country in August due to a resurgence. It did not achieve what it did without them.
That it now doesn't have to be very strict. Well yes that's what you get AFTER you have crushed the virus, something that NEVER happened in the U.S.. That's the reward for lockdowns and other virus mitigation measures. We don't get that reward because we didn't do the measures adequately. Not everyone is individually to blame, it's mostly people suffer when they have bad leadership. Pity us. Closing U.S. borders only does so much good when the virus is running rampant.
Yes I am aware New Zealand isn't the U.S.. It's harder to close U.S. borders. And yea New Zealand is a small country under excellent social democratic leadership and it mitigated through lockdown early on.
Neighbors flew today and had a COVID test. If they did not have the results back before they left they had to quarantine for 10 days at the destination. WTH... so the people on the plane are subjected to the possibility of the testing positive. Makes no sense to me.
My son flew on a connecting flight to Nashville in November. When he booked the flight, there was a blacked out/unavailable seat in the middle, but when he got home he said that every flight was packed--all middle seats were filled in.
I don't understand how a plane with 200 passengers sitting elbow-to-elbow over the course of a couple of hours or more is not considered to be a COVID incubator.
DS quarantined for 14 days and had a test and was negative, but me, the enthusiastic business traveler & million-miler, would never fly these days.
First of all, any negative covid test has a 20% chance of being a false negative.
Additionally, one could turn positive a day or two later if the test were repeated, as they could already have been infected at the time of the first test. That’s called the incubation period.
The only way to trust a negative covid test is to quarantine for 1-2 weeks after the test, before acting as though one does not have the virus.
It’s like taking a pregnancy test the day after sex. The sperm might fertilize the egg that first day, but the test won’t show the pregnancy for another few weeks.
I wish people understood this.
To sum it up - I’m not flying for any reason. It’s like playing Russian roulette.
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-21, 7:47pm
Those who have argued it is not high risk is just because of supposedly good ventilation on planes, and anyway it's relative risk. Of course it's best to limit time indoors with others, to as little time and as few people as well one can endure I guess.
But the average plane may be no more risky than the average office, which probably has quite poor ventilation indeed, just one may have a lot more choice about getting on a plane than going to the office.
I saw on the news tonight that 10% of those surveyed have felt suicidal in the past 30 days and the figure is 25% for those aged 18 to 24. This was part of a story about a young man who did commit suicide. There is a lot of emphasis on protecting older people in the pandemic. How helpful would it be in saving younger lives if we could get a vaccine passport that would enable us to return to maskless, free life as it was pre-covid rather than waiting months? years? forever? for a herd immunity that may never come as a third of people don't want the vaccine?
Young people are dying, too. My colleague reported on Monday, after the obligatory team small talk "How was your Christmas?" that her brother died of COVID. He was middle-aged with kids. His whole family was sick, but they recovered.
Yes, my DS and I just had that conversation. He is depressed. He's very outgoing, and he had vibrant life in the restaurant industry with a side gig as a musician. He would meet friends several times a week at bars. He would meet dates on Bumble. He knows that he just has to get through a few months of dreary winter and hopefully by spring, COVID will be on the downswing. He at least has his parents to hang out with and a couple of months of savings from the stimulus package, but obviously that's not optimal for a 36 year old.
The risk is on both sides. You mitigate the risks by encouraging less spread (i.e. masks and social distancing) and also by providing support for those who need it. Ignoring the risks in the name of keeping the status quo is not going to help the mental health of the population at large when the numbers of the sick and dead rise exponentially.
Time will tell whether people who get vaccinated can still be carriers. I certainly hope they can’t because otherwise the people who refuse the vaccine are destined to either get covid or have to lead money lives. And if they are going to get covid that means the healthcare system will be stressed for a long time which will affect all of us.
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-21, 8:50pm
There's a lot of assumptions that feeling suicidal is about restrictions or economic pain etc.. Yea sure all of that is distressing and maybe it is so for the 18-24 crowd.
But also living in a society where masses of people are dropping everyday from this thing also depresses people not to mention if they know people that are currently sick or worse and at this point that's a lot of people that know someone, but even if they don't just the awareness that it is going on is a bummer. But no reason to kill yourself? I'm not sure feeling suicidal necessarily tracks that closely with actual suicide though, it might just be a way of saying being depressed/distressed.
iris lilies
1-6-21, 12:34am
I saw on the news tonight that 10% of those surveyed have felt suicidal in the past 30 days and the figure is 25% for those aged 18 to 24. This was part of a story about a young man who did commit suicide. There is a lot of emphasis on protecting older people in the pandemic. How helpful would it be in saving younger lives if we could get a vaccine passport that would enable us to return to maskless, free life as it was pre-covid rather than waiting months? years? forever? for a herd immunity that may never come as a third of people don't want the vaccine?
Last summer I learned that there were two suicides at the toney retirement center here in st louis. At least one of them jumped from a third or four story building. It’s the isolation that got them.
I saw members of Congress, some I recognize as Democrats, crouched down hoping to avoid rioters. None of them were wearing masks. Do as I say not as I do.
I saw members of Congress, some I recognize as Democrats, crouched down hoping to avoid rioters. None of them were wearing masks. Do as I say not as I do.
Personally if I had a bunch of terrorists coming after me with plans of show trials and executions the last thing I'd be worried about would be my damn mask. Sometimes one has to prioritize what actions are needed to maintain one's safety.
iris lilies
1-6-21, 8:57pm
I saw members of Congress, some I recognize as Democrats, crouched down hoping to avoid rioters. None of them were wearing masks. Do as I say not as I do.this is kind of entertaining...
this is kind of entertaining...
By what standard? Times of terror?
I saw members of Congress, some I recognize as Democrats, crouched down hoping to avoid rioters. None of them were wearing masks. Do as I say not as I do.
this is kind of entertaining...
By what standard? Times of terror?
I took it to mean the iris was amused by the absolute idiocy of how jeppy can turn absolutely any incident into an anti mask tirade. One can only imagine the stupid comment she would have made were we in the middle of the pandemic when Reagan was shot or during 9/11.
Teacher Terry
1-7-21, 12:42am
IL, you and me both:)). Jeppy is the master in turning everything into something about masks. Too funny!!
dado potato
1-7-21, 1:43am
Israel is locking down, effective 1/7/2021, for at least 2 weeks.
Let us make the final effort - together -Prime Minister Netanyahu.
All schools and nonessential businesses will be closed. Residents will be required to stay within 1 kilometer of home, except for grocery shopping, medical care, legal proceedings, and exercise.
ApatheticNoMore
1-7-21, 1:59am
Israel is locking down, effective 1/7/2021, for at least 2 weeks.
Let us make the final effort - together -Prime Minister Netanyahu.
All schools and nonessential businesses will be closed. Residents will be required to stay within 1 kilometer of home, except for grocery shopping, medical care, legal proceedings, and exercise.
and leads the world in vaccinating too, over 16 doses per 100 people, U.S. is less than 2, but even despite having vaccinating more than others at this point they lockdown. That's a real lockdown, nothing like that here in covidville.
Israel is locking down, effective 1/7/2021, for at least 2 weeks.
Let us make the final effort - together -Prime Minister Netanyahu.
All schools and nonessential businesses will be closed. Residents will be required to stay within 1 kilometer of home, except for grocery shopping, medical care, legal proceedings, and exercise.
In my state legal proceedings have been shut down for most of the pandemic.
IL, you and me both:)). Jeppy is the master in turning everything into something about masks. Too funny!!
Guess i have lost all humor in this situation and understood jeppy’s (as usual) ridiculous comment.
dado potato
1-8-21, 12:32pm
California lock down:
All individuals living in the State of California are currently ordered to stay home... except for permitted work, local shopping, or other permitted errands. Effective 12/3/20 the Regional Stay Home Order is based on ICU availability. If a region has less than 15% ICU availability, private gatherings of any size are prohibited. 100% masking is required.
ICU availability by Region in California:
Northern 25.4%
Greater Sacramento 9.2%
Bay Area 3.5%
San Joaquin Valley 0
Southern 0
KQED reported that hospitals are using triage to allocate their available ICU capacity to patients. Huntington Hospital in Pasadena, for example...
http://www.pasadenanow.com/main/huntington-hospital-reports-30-patients-in-icu-as-triage-tents-set-up-for-non-critical-patients
ApatheticNoMore
1-8-21, 1:16pm
How it is: All non essential businesses are still open in California including malls and xmas shopping went on. They didn't enforce any capacity limits though they existed and were shocked, shocked that crowding went on in the malls (a shock only conveniently expressed the weekend after xmas). The "outdoor" (only partially) gym is open and rocking and added an expansion. Airports are open. I don't think everyone who can work from home is (some weren't ever, probably a lot less are working from home than in spring though). People are definitely out and about judging from traffic (no not quite as heavy as the before times, but lots of people out and about). Peoples willingness and ability to sacrifice has been all burned though and wasted by endless months of this thing with no real plan and convenient hypocrisies, bad messaging, no real help. It's why this thing won't ever end, who knows when we'll ever have hospitals again, we just have to live without them I guess :(. I mean we're what going to go on a month of no ICU capacity without end in sight. Except maybe less cases in Feb since holidays are over, except there is that more contagious strain ... and meanwhile vaccination proceeds at a snails pace it seems. And you can't get a test, it's 8 DAYS of wait to get a covid tests, so all cases figures, may as well just double them, we have no idea about the real number of cases - just is anyone going to be left who hasn't had this thing, by the time we get a vaccine?
How it is: All non essential businesses are still open in California including malls and xmas shopping went on. They didn't enforce any capacity limits though they existed and were shocked, shocked that crowding went on in the malls (a shock only conveniently expressed the weekend after xmas). The "outdoor" (only partially) gym is open and rocking and added an expansion. Airports are open. I don't think everyone who can work from home is (some weren't ever, probably a lot less are working from home than in spring though). People are definitely out and about judging from traffic (no not quite as heavy as the before times, but lots of people out and about). Peoples willingness and ability to sacrifice has been all burned though and wasted by endless months of this thing with no real plan and convenient hypocrisies, bad messaging, no real help. It's why this thing won't ever end, who knows when we'll ever have hospitals again, we just have to live without them I guess :(. I mean we're what going to go on a month of no ICU capacity without end in sight. Except maybe less cases in Feb since holidays are over, except there is that more contagious strain ... and meanwhile vaccination proceeds at a snails pace it seems. And you can't get a test, it's 8 DAYS of wait to get a covid tests, so all cases figures, may as well just double them, we have no idea about the real number of cases - just is anyone going to be left who hasn't had this thing, by the time we get a vaccine?
It is awful. I think of you whenever I hear about the state of affairs in L.A., and I hope things improve for you and the rest of us soon.
APM, I had no idea so much in CA was still open. Got the opposite impression from the news.
ApatheticNoMore
1-9-21, 10:25am
Restaurants and bars are closed for all but take out (and who does take out from a bar), and personal services like barbers are closed, some may be operating illegally, well I know some are but I think most restaurants anyway are complying, the other stuff probably less so. And more restaurants will no doubt go under. We are neither saving the economy nor the hospital system, but noone is going to loosen restrictions more in the verge of hospitals having no capacity and going to crisis care standards, and they are very near to crisis care standards. Maybe if we had had a full shutdown a bit before thanksgiving at least the medical system would have been saved. Half measures have failed.
Thing is California always had limited hospital capacity per population compared to many states, and all this stuff probably drove state by state decisions on shut downs etc.. Anyway it's failed at this point.
It effects stuff, I suggest to bf to take a hike, a hike is noone's definition of high covid risk, nor really the hiking I do of much risk of anything it's neither backcountry nor extreme nor etc., but bf is like: what if one sprained an ankle, there is no hospital capacity. Well there is no hospital capacity (and urgent care has lines around the block daily - hours waiting). Fine let's sit at home-prison.
Will your BF even go for a walk in your neighborhood or a local park?
dado potato
1-9-21, 2:30pm
The government of Sweden has reacted to the reduction in available ICUs with new authority to make virus-restrictions legally binding (effective 1/10/2021) , as opposed to voluntary (as in recent months).
All regions of Sweden will be subject to the same restrictions. Notifications of new restrictions will be sent to every registered cell phone number in the country.
Among the restrictions:
Indoor venues must limit the number of visitors to 1 person per 10 square meters,
Private events are limited to 8 persons or less.
ApatheticNoMore
1-9-21, 2:32pm
Will your BF even go for a walk in your neighborhood or a local park?
yes, 10 months of that and well this novel coronavirus has lost all it's novelty. If it were a novel, it would be War and Peace. You get the drift.
From a friend of mine who is an ER doctor at a major hospital :
"What do the new UK and South Africa SarsCOV2 virus variants mean? *6 minutes*. That's what they mean. If it would ordinarily take 15 minutes of exposure for you to get Covid19 from another person who has it, it now takes *only 6 minutes*. Minimize your exposure to other people! Do not trust negative tests, they are falsely reassuring. No prolonged interaction with someone not in your household is really safe.
...
Things are worse than ever out there. Record cases every day, record deaths. Please be safe my friends, safer than ever, because it's more dangerous than ever."
Thanks for the additional info, bae. Sigh... while the vaccine is giving hope, reality is that it IS still dangerous to everyone.
Thanks for the additional info, bae. Sigh... while the vaccine is giving hope, reality is that it IS still dangerous to everyone.
Her note was prompted by the troublesome fact that it is *more* dangerous to everyone, at a time when we are all tired of this business.
This seems to be the point of maximum danger, so far.
Her note was prompted by the troublesome fact that it is *more* dangerous to everyone, at a time when we are all tired of this business.
This seems to be the point of maximum danger, so far.
Important difference!
Dr. Fauci opined that the next two months will be the most dangerous so far in the pandemic.
I also just read that studies show around 75% of COVID survivors have lingering symptoms six months or longer after exposure.
ApatheticNoMore
1-9-21, 10:06pm
2 restaurants operating illegally (albeit outside but that's not legal at this point either), and seemingly a massage chain (!), everyone is out and about, me to to go to a plant nursery (legal and of course largely outside) or I will lose my mind from boredom. I think at this point it's getting impossible not to get it here.
It was just on the local news that because that state didn’t officially extend the lockdown for the Bay Area (but most
Of the counties did) 8 restaurants in a county that didn’t officially extend, have reopened outdoor dining and were ‘packed’. You won’t find me at any of them...
There are increasing reports that negative tests are unreliable, especially against the new variant, but people are fatalistic. When the new variant was announced from the UK instead of shutting down Logan Airport the governor said we'll get the new variant here too. It's like he isn't even trying. He has tunnel vision and just keeps clamping on the same restrictions from the spring or extending them.
Wacky covid-19/pandemic side effect:
My father-in-law died on Christmas. My Dad is in the middle of doing all the Necessary Paperwork to move on. For some of these tasks, he needs death certificates...
He lives in Palm Springs...
Well, turns out that death certificate issuing is backed up massively in California right now. A combination of an unexpected number of people dying from "just the flu", and the offices that issue the certificates being short-staffed and not open for traditional walk-in business.
Hmmm.
early morning
1-11-21, 12:00am
My youngest just called to tell me that they, and the entire household they live with, are sick. They are all at home in varying states of illness. Only one got tested (positive) and the rest are sure they have it also. I am worried but hopeful. My offspring has no underlying conditions that we are aware of and was already out of work so no additional job stress for them. I will of course take over foods etc if asked (90 miles away so won't go if not needed!) or any otc stuff as requested. They have Amazon Prime (well someone there does) so they can order as needed without lots of shipping fees.... DD may have had it last spring when testing was not available unless you were hospitalized, and she is still not back to prior health. Or, she may have something equally worrying, we do not know for sure at this point. I'd rather be sick myself, than have those I love ill!
rosarugosa
1-11-21, 8:08am
Oh no, Early, I'm sorry to hear this and hope everyone is OK.
Oh man, Early, that is rough. Hope everybody recovers well.
Chicken lady
1-11-21, 8:49am
Bae, I am sorry for your loss.
early morning, I hope that everyone recovers quickly. I actually worry more about my youngest child than my parents. Mom and Dad are smart and virtually isolated on four acres (they have been keeping essential medical appointments and allowing my aunt and uncle to leave stuff on the porch and visit outside from about 20 feet way.) Dd is out in it all - 2 jobs and a boyfriend with a big family that doesn’t really follow the guidelines.
happystuff
1-11-21, 10:57am
early morning, sending prayers and hope everyone recovers quickly and completely!
Teacher Terry
1-11-21, 11:58am
Sending lots of love and light to everyone. These are scary times.
The gorillas at the San Diego zoo have caught covid from an asymptomatic staff member.
So after the UK variant is already in at least 8 states, and variants from South Africa, Japan, and other places are racing around the globe, the CDC is going to start requiring covid tests for international air travellers. Yep, these same tests in the news lately for high false negative rates. They've finally decided the barn door should be shut, but it's stuck due the demands of the jet set, so they've got it partially ajar now. Good luck with that.
rosarugosa
1-12-21, 7:19pm
JP: That is so sad about the gorillas.
DH got his second vaccine shot today. So far, so good.
I am reading The Splendid and the Vile and what a contrast to today. I just finished a chapter on the bombing of Coventry.
Today you may have to do a virtual farewell to a loved one. Then a bomb could kill a loved one instantly, no farewell, and the body might be so mangled it cannot be identified and claimed.
Now the government provides financial assistance including SNAP so people can eat more. Then food was rationed.
Then people wanted to go to dangerous zones to volunteer and help. Now we are told to quarantine and hide from danger.
Then the leader, Churchill, was seen as uncultured and bombastic by his critics rather like Trump, but he put the country first. Trump puts himself first.
I am sure there are other parallels I am missing, but the main takeaway I get is how lucky Americans are they have not had a war on their soil within the memory of anyone living, and how silly the media are with their breathless reporting of covid as if it were the greatest disaster ever, and of the divides in this country portending some sort of civil war. We are a long way from war, as anyone who lived through a home soil war would know.
Tell overwhelmed health care workers that COVID is not a disaster. I dare you.
It's not the greatest disaster ever, as I wrote.
In many parts of the world the economic side effects are much more dire than the health impact. Then again, we are talking countries with lower life expectancies and lower average ages, so they are less vulnerable.
When some people are in the middle of something and it grabs all their attention they lose perspective. Most reporters fall in this category.
The bombing of Coventry resulted in several mass burials of bodies that could not be identified, hundreds at a time. 2294 buildings were destroyed and another 45,704 were damaged. Our Capitol building has some broken glass but still stands. We will get through covid and the mobs and everything else. Life in America is still so good we are the immigration beacon of the world (not New Zealand).
Tell overwhelmed health care workers that COVID is not a disaster. I dare you.
Yeah. Smile when you say that.
30,000 died in London during the entirety of the German bombing campaign. We've had about that many deaths in the USA from COVID so far in the first 11 days of January this year.
So, troll the heck off.
ApatheticNoMore
1-12-21, 10:06pm
So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. ....
GeorgeParker
1-12-21, 10:26pm
Yeah. Smile when you say that.
For those too young to remember:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlyUeUz1awU
30,000 died in London during the entirety of the German bombing campaign. We've had about that many deaths in the USA from COVID so far in the first 11 days of January this year.
So, troll the heck off.
Indeed. At this point it looks like we're on track to lose more people in the US to covid than the military lost during all of WWII.
Covid deaths per 100,000 on January 11th in the US = 55 Source: New York Times
Deaths per 100,000 from other disasters - scroll down to see the chart:
https://ourworldindata.org/genocides
Scroll further down and you will see the impact on life expectancy of a couple of events. Cambodia fell below 20 and Rwanda below 30 years of age. Neither disaster dominated the news the way covid does.
Here is an article on reduction of US life expectancy due to covid:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.12.20148387v3
What a difference!
I saw a reporter out with the lottery story since jackpots are high. He asked a woman what she would do if she won and she said buy her own tropical island where she could go and not have to wear a mask :)
I saw a reporter out with the lottery story since jackpots are high. He asked a woman what she would do if she won and she said buy her own tropical island where she could go and not have to wear a mask :)
Seems like just staying home would be a lot cheaper.
rosarugosa
1-13-21, 9:53am
Seems like just staying home would be a lot cheaper.
Simple frugal living for the win! :)
catherine
1-13-21, 11:12am
Actually, the NYT reports to say that doubling down on mask wearing (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/health/coronavirus-masks-transmission.html?searchResultPosition=3) may have benefits.
In terms of the efficacy of our general run-of-the-mill mask-wearing practices, here's what one paragraph says:
The arguments for masking span several fields of science, including epidemiology and physics. A bevy of observational studies have suggested that widespread mask-wearing can curb infections and deaths on an impressive scale, in settings as small as hair salons and at the level of entire countries. One study, which tracked state policies mandating face coverings in public, found that known Covid cases waxed and waned in near-lockstep with mask-wearing rules. Another, which followed coronavirus infections among health care workers in Boston, noted a drastic drop in the number of positive test results after masks became a universal fixture among staff. And a study in Beijing found that face masks were 79 percent effective at blocking transmission from infected people to their close contacts.
An article in the local news said that cases of the common cold and seasonal flu were down significantly due to the extra measures for Covid. I suppose that's almost a given.
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-21, 11:40am
Our public health department in the middle of a coronavirus surge (although the surge *may* be improving a little) is now is telling us it's Very Very Important to wear masks when talking a walk. You tell me how much sense that makes? (IMO very little given what we know about outdoor transmission). But they are public health right, so this is now one of their emphasis - wear a mask when talking a walk or people will keep dying from this thing!
Their other piece of advice for people from the public health department is to wear masks inside their homes if they leave their homes and live with other vulnerable people. From a disease spread perspective this actually *might* make some sense (but enough hours spent in close contact may negate some of the mask benefits). But from a practical perspective noone is going to do it almost. Besides that noone can do it when they sleep. Ok then just keep bedroom doors closed, yea sure if you have multiple rooms, but that isn't going to solve the 20 people living in a 1 bedroom type situation with people are sleeping in the living room couch and floor, people sleeping on the kitchen floor etc..
happystuff
1-13-21, 12:13pm
In many parts of the world the economic side effects are much more dire than the health impact.
I don't think I will ever agree that the loss of money is more dire than the loss of a life.
dado potato
1-13-21, 1:44pm
Misinformation and lies about the coronavirus have been and continue to be spread by a vast number of internet sites.
An up-to-date list of such sites in the US and abroad is maintained by by the Coronavirus Misinformation Tracking Center. (link below)
I dug into only a couple of sites that caught my eye... and I would say it was "eye-opening" to see the range and amount of resources devoted to spreading misinformation about the virus on the internet.
http://www.newsguardtech.com/coronavirus-misinformation-tracking-center
iris lilies
1-13-21, 2:07pm
Our public health department in the middle of a coronavirus surge (although the surge *may* be improving a little) is now is telling us it's Very Very Important to wear masks when talking a walk. You tell me how much sense that makes? (IMO very little given what we know about outdoor transmission). But they are public health right, so this is now one of their emphasis - wear a mask when talking a walk or people will keep dying from this thing!
Their other piece of advice for people from the public health department is to wear masks inside their homes if they leave their homes and live with other vulnerable people. From a disease spread perspective this actually *might* make some sense (but enough hours spent in close contact may negate some of the mask benefits). But from a practical perspective noone is going to do it almost. Besides that noone can do it when they sleep. Ok then just keep bedroom doors closed, yea sure if you have multiple rooms, but that isn't going to solve the 20 people living in a 1 bedroom type situation with people are sleeping in the living room couch and floor, people sleeping on the kitchen floor etc..
early on in the pandemic, Senator Rand Paul recovered from Coronavirus in his family home’s basement while keeping away from the rest of his family members. If they all or any came down with it, I didn’t hear about that. He said they threw him food down there periodically.
But that isnt the same as staying away for months and months on end from household members. The short stint is less onerous.
APN, I don’t have much respect for the directive to wear a mask when you’re outside in nature either. I live in a city and see many walkers out and about. Honestly, it seems that at least half are wearing a mask. This is good! But am I awful for not wearing a mask? I go out daily on a 1 mile walk. I don't know...
I should, however, wear a mask around my neck when going to the community garden in the next few months because that’s easy enough to pull up onto my face if I run into someone. I use only the masks that go around the back of my head. I buy some with elastic ear pieces but they don’t stay on my head so I add elastic to them so that it fits around my head.
Yes, and then people pick up the misinformation and spread it as truth. Useful idiots, as the Soviets say.
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-21, 2:43pm
I think public health department here is at the point of just: throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks, or running stuff up the flagpole and see who salutes. People are likely getting it from jobs but they won't shut down non-essential businesses. My bfs workplace is at a case a week now and they aren't even getting it from each other but out in the community. There is no reason he can't do his job from home but will they let him? Nope. People are getting it from crowded living conditions but that's intractable poverty and there are not and have never been isolation hotels or other setups to isolate when sick here. Meanwhile swap meets are open and crowded and indoors but that is where a lot of poor people shop. People are getting it from social gatherings but they can't police them. And so it's doubling down on super unlikely sources of transmission like people taking walks without masks or it's unlikely to be practiced suggestions like wear a mask in your house at all times.
dado potato
1-14-21, 12:25pm
OWS Operation Warp Speed briefing 1/12/2021 said 38 million doses have been made available to states "without a hitch". I guess it was not worth mentioning the 57 doses intentionally ruined by a "bad actor" pharmacist formerly employed by the Aurora Hospital in Grafton WI.
OWS said the supply was larger than the population in Group 1A. So eligibility for vaccination should expand to all people 65 and older, plus all people 16-65 with a co-morbidity. The federal government now plans to release the entire supply, rather than holding back supply for the Second Dose. The assumption is that the pharmaceutical manufacturers will continue production and will be able to supply the Second Dose in time when it is needed.
OWS observed that some states (notably West Virginia) administer vaccines without delays and confusion, while other states are more opaque and impose more restrictions. OWS response is to base future allocations of vaccines to states "on the pace of administration", the promptness of the state's reporting on vaccination, as well as the size of the state's >65 population. So, in effect after 2 weeks, states which do not get the lead out of their trousers are warned that their allocation may be cut.
frugal-one
1-14-21, 4:12pm
OWS Operation Warp Speed briefing 1/12/2021 said 38 million doses have been made available to states "without a hitch". I guess it was not worth mentioning the 57 doses intentionally ruined by a "bad actor" pharmacist formerly employed by the Aurora Hospital in Grafton WI.
OWS said the supply was larger than the population in Group 1A. So eligibility for vaccination should expand to all people 65 and older, plus all people 16-65 with a co-morbidity. The federal government now plans to release the entire supply, rather than holding back supply for the Second Dose. The assumption is that the pharmaceutical manufacturers will continue production and will be able to supply the Second Dose in time when it is needed.
OWS observed that some states (notably West Virginia) administer vaccines without delays and confusion, while other states are more opaque and impose more restrictions. OWS response is to base future allocations of vaccines to states "on the pace of administration", the promptness of the state's reporting on vaccination, as well as the size of the state's >65 population. So, in effect after 2 weeks, states which do not get the lead out of their trousers are warned that their allocation may be cut.
A Milwaukee pharmacist was arrested and accused of "tampering with and causing the destruction" of more than 550 doses of the Moderna vaccine against the coronavirus last week, Grafton, Wis., police confirmed.Dec 31, 2020.
Saw in today's paper that he was suspended from his job but no legal action has been taken against him.
iris lilies
1-14-21, 4:38pm
I think public health department here is at the point of just: throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks, or running stuff up the flagpole and see who salutes. People are likely getting it from jobs but they won't shut down non-essential businesses. My bfs workplace is at a case a week now and they aren't even getting it from each other but out in the community. There is no reason he can't do his job from home but will they let him? Nope. People are getting it from crowded living conditions but that's intractable poverty and there are not and have never been isolation hotels or other setups to isolate when sick here. Meanwhile swap meets are open and crowded and indoors but that is where a lot of poor people shop. People are getting it from social gatherings but they can't police them. And so it's doubling down on super unlikely sources of transmission like people taking walks without masks or it's unlikely to be practiced suggestions like wear a mask in your house at all times.
my city’s public health department put out a very carefully worded statement about park playgrounds in summertime. They did not say playgrounds are open. They made noise about playgrounds not being monitored and everyone is urged to take precautions and etc. Since no one was honoring the yellow tape around playgrounds anyway, what point is it to continue to play the game?
Tiny tots must not be denied
dado potato
1-14-21, 4:59pm
A Milwaukee pharmacist was arrested and accused of "tampering with and causing the destruction" of more than 550 doses of the Moderna vaccine against the coronavirus last week, Grafton, Wis., police confirmed.Dec 31, 2020.
Saw in today's paper that he was suspended from his job but no legal action has been taken against him.
Based on the news I have seen from Milwaukee (Grafton being a suburb of MKE) Steven Brandenburg has been fired from his job, and his pharmacist license has been suspended. I understand that he was held in jail overnight before being released on a signature bond, agreeing to appear in court to face charges. I believe that today (Tuesday) the prosecutor will decide exactly what to charge him with. I may have described his offense incorrectly. I believe there were 57 vials involved, and each vial contained 10 doses of vaccine.
I later read that he had been persuaded by misinformation websites that the vaccine "could hurt people by changing their DNA".
iris lilies
1-15-21, 10:19am
Based on the news I have seen from Milwaukee (Grafton being a suburb of MKE) Steven Brandenburg has been fired from his job, and his pharmacist license has been suspended. I understand that he was held in jail overnight before being released on a signature bond, agreeing to appear in court to face charges. I believe that today (Tuesday) the prosecutor will decide exactly what to charge him with. I may have described his offense incorrectly. I believe there were 57 vials involved, and each vial contained 10 doses of vaccine.
I later read that he had been persuaded by misinformation websites that the vaccine "could hurt people by changing their DNA".
Pharmacists have a high level of microbiology training. It is weird when one of them escapes that mindset. But then, there are plenty of M.D. outliers, we hear about them all the time running fringe treatment programs.
And sometimes, as in the case of Ignaz Semmelweis or Frances Oldham Kelsey, those outliers are vindicated.
And sometimes, as in the case of Ignaz Semmelweis or Frances Oldham Kelsey, those outliers are vindicated.
And other times they are just ignorant outliers:
https://apnews.com/article/salem-coronavirus-pandemic-oregon-95c7cea3eb90b1716a12baba065f98dc
Certainly, but that doesn't negate the fact that we need "outliers" to progress.
I think of the Australian doctor, Barry Marshall, who discovered that helicobacter was a cause of peptic ulcers, and how long it took for him to convince the medical establishment. And Dr. Timothey Noakes (South Africa) and Dr. Gary Fettke (Australia) have both had to fight organized resistance to their ideas. Dr. Noakes won a court case, and Dr. Fettkes was later exonerated of "nutritional malpractice." None of these people are whack jobs, but principled professionals who wouldn't shut up and go away.
And other times they are just ignorant outliers:
https://apnews.com/article/salem-coronavirus-pandemic-oregon-95c7cea3eb90b1716a12baba065f98dc
"Mask of shame."
Words fail me.
The UK strain has just been detected in IL for the first time. Someone in the Chicago area who traveled to the UK.
I wrote the other day about the escape mutant. Its name is E484K. Here is another reference to it since I know some people do not trust CNN:
https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/e484k-mutation-might-make-covid-strain-vaccine-resistant
I wrote the other day about the escape mutant. Its name is E484K. Here is another reference to it since I know some people do not trust CNN:
https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/e484k-mutation-might-make-covid-strain-vaccine-resistant
It’s not that we don’t trust cnn. You, on the other hand...
I thought the border was closed, but I saw on the news Canadians are making their way to Florida to get vaccinated ahead of US citizens. Here is a link from Bloomberg News for those who do not believe CNN:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/canada-s-flawed-vaccination-plan-sends-snowbirds-to-u-s-for-jab
ETA you think since the vaccines come from the Feds Trump would stop this since he is always talking about America first.
I thought the border was closed, but I saw on the news Canadians are making their way to Florida to get vaccinated ahead of US citizens. Here is a link from Bloomberg News for those who do not believe CNN:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/canada-s-flawed-vaccination-plan-sends-snowbirds-to-u-s-for-jab
ETA you think since the vaccines come from the Feds Trump would stop this since he is always talking about America first.
Trump checked out of COVID oversight nearly from the beginning; he isn't even pretending to care these days.
Today's Atlantic has a good description of how viruses mutate:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/01/coronavirus-mutations-variants/617694/
Many more people have died of covid than in the Capitol, so why if masks stop covid are they being ordered removed in airports? So TSA can get a better look at people's faces on flights to Washington.
Because of course the government will not stop people from flying around despite new variants including one that is an escape variant.
I saw in today's local news that 75% of people nationwide are wearing masks and in Massachusetts over 80% yet we continue to break records in the US for infections.
Not everyone has to get vaccinated to get to herd immunity. 75% would do it.
So obviously if 75% or more of people are wearing masks and covid continues to spike masks don't work.
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