View Full Version : Conavirus......
happystuff
8-11-21, 6:31pm
Update on bil is that he had antibody infusion and is doing better. Still having symptoms, but now more "cold-like". Just really tired. He and sister are still isolating from each other.
Teacher Terry
8-11-21, 7:37pm
Happy, glad your BIL is doing better. I decided not to go to my dining group for awhile. Seems not worth the risk.
happystuff
8-11-21, 8:37pm
Thanks, TT.
iris lilies
8-11-21, 9:22pm
A job I could not do - manufacturer's rep. You have to go visit and schmooze with customers and butter them up. One came in today and was sitting and agreeing with all the boss's conspiracy theories, including that viruses don't circulate naturally in the summer because all the vitamin D from the sun kills them, so they must be introduced artificially - therefore the current outbreaks of covid are due to people getting vaccinated. Never mind that there is no live virus in the vaccines.
wait…what? I have not heard that interesting theory.
ApatheticNoMore
8-11-21, 9:29pm
Only we had a surge last summer, so here the conspiracy theorist's are "it's seasonal, it's always surging in the summer", well yes, and the winter, maybe when people are indoors and gathering (due to heat or holidays)
Here is a study on covid deaths in children:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w
In addition to obesity it mentions other factors. For instance, half of all deaths occurred in children with complex multi disabilities such as those requiring tubes for breathing or eating. I would not hesitate to attend a birthday party for a healthy 4 year old.
rosarugosa
8-12-21, 5:36am
Here is a study on covid deaths in children:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w
In addition to obesity it mentions other factors. For instance, half of all deaths occurred in children with complex multi disabilities such as those requiring tubes for breathing or eating. I would not hesitate to attend a birthday party for a healthy 4 year old.
You would have to actually put a gun to my head to get me to attend a 4-year-old's birthday party! :laff:
Here is a study on covid deaths in children:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w
In addition to obesity it mentions other factors. For instance, half of all deaths occurred in children with complex multi disabilities such as those requiring tubes for breathing or eating. I would not hesitate to attend a birthday party for a healthy 4 year old.
Studies from pre-delta times are somewhat irrelevant at this point. But by all means feel free to continue to ignore the stories about jam packed pediatric hospitals in states like Texas since you have obviously pivoted from ‘old people who were about to die anyway’ to your new fixation of ‘children getting it doesn’t matter’.
Studies from pre-delta times are somewhat irrelevant at this point. But by all means feel free to continue to ignore the stories about jam packed pediatric hospitals in states like Texas since you have obviously pivoted from ‘old people who were about to die anyway’ to your new fixation of ‘children getting it doesn’t matter’.
From the article it's children with such severe illnesses they would die anyway so I am still on the die anyway theme. These are people who would not have lived past infancy in years past but are now kept artificially alive with machines and tubes. If not covid some other opportunistic infection would have killed them eventually long before they reached a normal lifespan.
There is an idea that due to modern medicine no one should have to die before 90 or 100 or something. It's fed by bogus "science". For example, you use increasingly aggressive diagnostic tests, some using radiation that itself can induce cancer, to screen for cancer. You therefore find cancer earlier than you would have otherwise and treat it. The person reaches the 5 mile mark and they are a survivor, a success story. But they die 7 years later when the cancer comes back.
So diagnose in year 1 and live to year 7 you "beat cancer".
Diagnose in the old days in year 4 and you live to year 7 it's only three years so you "succumbed to cancer" or "lost your battle against cancer".
But in reality you died at the same time, it's only twisted statistics that try to differentiate.
Well you have these "covid deaths" in people who if they didn't have covid would have died of the seasonal flu at median age 82.7 or as a child with precarious health. Is covid really a dangerous pandemic, or just the straw that broke an already severely fractured camel's back?
If covid kills off a lot of the people who would have died anyways in the near future our mortality statistics should plummet in the first few years post-pandemic, because the people who would have died in the next few years already did.
You would have to actually put a gun to my head to get me to attend a 4-year-old's birthday party! :laff:
I felt the same way even when the 4 year old was mine!! :laff:
Chicken lady
8-12-21, 9:04am
I mean, in the 1800s maternal mortality was as high as 40% in some places, so since Yppej has a kid it’s probably fine if she dies of covid. Without modern medicine she was likely to be dead anyway.
I’ve got three kids, so I should probably just go play in traffic.
I felt the same way even when the 4 year old was mine!! :laff:
Because of Covid we have missed so much with the grandchildren.
I am real excited to see her reaction to the Little Mermaid kickboard I got her. She was so afraid of water and then she tried my kickboard and spent 2 ecstatic hours in the water with it.
This will be the first birthday I have gotten to be with her, and I actually have been able to pick presents that she will like, and I now know her well enough to do so.
This is a big deal for me.
iris lilies
8-12-21, 9:28am
You would have to actually put a gun to my head to get me to attend a 4-year-old's birthday party! :laff:
Oh I dont know. Theoretically I would enjoy a birthday party for a toddler related to me. Toddlers can a scream. But a 4 years old is not the circus that a toddler is.
I mean, in the 1800s maternal mortality was as high as 40% in some places, so since Yppej has a kid it’s probably fine if she dies of covid. Without modern medicine she was likely to be dead anyway.
I’ve got three kids, so I should probably just go play in traffic.
If a difficult childbirth that would have killed me in the old days instead with modern medicine left me bedridden and reliant on machines and tubes to live I don't know that I would want to live.
Chicken lady
8-12-21, 10:09am
That would be your choice and I respect it.
but it truly bothers me that you are so cavalier about other people’s lives.
there are laws that require us to wear clothing in public - basically so that we don’t embarrass or offend people. I accept that masks can be uncomfortable. Avoiding places because you don’t want to wear a mask in inconvenient. But being trapped in your house and unable to have contact with human beings because you don’t want your child to die is a h*ll of a lot more uncomfortable and inconvenient and I’m willing to do a lot to spare people that.
I mean, I would probably not go topless in public even if I wasn’t going to get arrested just because it’s polite.
That would be your choice and I respect it.
but it truly bothers me that you are so cavalier about other people’s lives.
there are laws that require us to wear clothing in public - basically so that we don’t embarrass or offend people. I accept that masks can be uncomfortable. Avoiding places because you don’t want to wear a mask in inconvenient. But being trapped in your house and unable to have contact with human beings because you don’t want your child to die is a h*ll of a lot more uncomfortable and inconvenient and I’m willing to do a lot to spare people that.
I mean, I would probably not go topless in public even if I wasn’t going to get arrested just because it’s polite.
I don't believe masks stop covid, which has very small particles. Nevertheless even pre-covid I would have been willing to wear masks when visiting someone in the ICU in grave danger of infectious illness. Were I in the ICU I would not expect everyone throughout the country to wear masks, but I would expect it of people coming to the ICU to visit me if medically indicated.
I think it is cavalier to expect everyone to turn their lives upside down forever (because covid will never disappear) because some people choose not to get vaccines and because some people have weakened immune systems that any germ like the seasonal flu could do in. Yeah, let's just shut down the economy - if you're suffering financially sucks to be you - because my rights trump your rights and I can't work anyways due to my medical conditions so it doesn't impact me. Definitely cavalier.
One thing I look forward to in retirement is not wearing a bra. And if in the current HHH weather I could go outside naked I just might. It doesn't harm anyone else if I do, whereas shutting down the economy and otherwise imposing restrictions on others, including a device that makes it hard to breathe, definitely does harm them.
Various styles of masks have been shown in studies--repeatedly--to block the droplets containing virus particles.
Chicken Lady I wonder how much your difficulty in achieving goals you set for yourself stems from the fact you waste time on Simple Living Forum berating me.
Various styles of masks have been shown in studies--repeatedly--to block the droplets containing virus particles.
Studies are not real life. That's like saying coitus interruptus is a good birth control method because it will stop most particles. But how often do people do it correctly vs give in to what feels comfortable to them?
Look around you at the types of masks people wear and how they wear them and judge for yourself. Start with our public officials and see how often they wear the masks even when indoors if the TV cameras are on and they want to look telegenic.
ETA My state no longer has a mask mandate so I will see people only wearing masks because they want to and they often have them under their nose, or will pull them under their chin to talk so people can hear them more clearly. If this is what people who like masks do, what do you think happens with people who hate masks and only wear them because they are forced to?
Chicken Lady I wonder how much your difficulty in achieving goals you set for yourself stems from the fact you waste time on Simple Living Forum berating me.
There was no berating. She politely expressed a different opinion. You however, were intentionally cruel.
Many real-world studies here show reduced transmission with mask use:
https://covid19.ncdhhs.gov/media/674/open
There was no berating. She politely expressed a different opinion. You however, were intentionally cruel.
She called me cavalier about other people's lives. That's berating, especially since I am not cavalier.
I have followed the law (except I did not wear a mask when walking by myself in the woods). I have stayed away from others. I did not visit my own parents indoors for a year. I have increased my handwashing and use of hand sanitizer. I have not sat at home working from home or collecting extra unemployment which would make complying with covid rules much easier. I've gone to work every day dealing with the public. I got vaccinated. I encouraged others to get vaccinated and offered them transportation to vaccination centers.
What I didn't do because it doesn't work is berate other people for their choices.
iris lilies
8-12-21, 11:13am
I don't believe masks stop covid, which has very small particles. Nevertheless even pre-covid I would have been willing to wear masks when visiting someone in the ICU in grave danger of infectious illness.…
This is black and white thinking which is wrong but also, most importantly to me, boring!
If you will accept any nuances in mask science, you have to accept that some masks stop some particles when worn by some people some of the time.
Note all those qualifers “some.”
I think it is cavalier to expect everyone to turn their lives upside down forever (because covid will never disappear) because some people choose not to get vaccines and because some people have weakened immune systems that any germ like the seasonal flu could do in. Yeah, let's just shut down the economy - if you're suffering financially sucks to be you - because my rights trump your rights and I can't work anyways due to my medical conditions so it doesn't impact me.
Definitely cavalier.
I agree somewhat, say, 50%. Shutting down the economy for those who are not vaccinated particularly those who choose not to be vaccinated is dumb at this point. small Sacrifices such as appropriate mask wearing and avoiding large crowds seem reasonable to me, although certainly the “large crowds” thing can be part of the economy such as airplane travel, concerts, etc.
People who are especially vulnerable to this virus need to take care of themselves. They have that responsibility to themselves. I don’t see that society at this point in the virus game needs to coddle them.
Chicken lady
8-12-21, 11:34am
The childbirth post was admittedly snarky.
especially since I am not cavalier.
I beg to disagree. There have been many many times where you've expressed the opinion of "well they were going to die anyway" whether that was old people, or people with comorbidities or children with issues. Those statements sound cavalier to me. Perhaps you are a very nice person in real life, but you sound rather heartless on this topic over the last year and a half.
The childbirth post was admittedly snarky.
One idea of how to avoid snarkiness is to speak directly to each other, rather than talking about other posters in the third person. This is something I noticed, that I could do to curtail my own snarkiness.
I saw this on another forum yesterday--someone made a post that had something that was so wrong about American literature that it would have been easy to point it out and make a joke at their expense. The line that I came up with amused me.
Then I thought, why am I posting this--who am I trying to appear clever in front of, since this would really embarrass me if someone pointed out that I had said something this off.
But if I limit myself to speaking more directly to people, and remove the opportunity to speak about them as though they were not there, it curtails my own snarkiness. Which is something I struggle with.
Chicken lady
8-12-21, 11:59am
I had also been given the impression that yppej had blocked me and could not see my posts - which I now know is not (or at least briefly was not) true.
so the sneakiness was more a cry of frustration in general.
I have seen numerous people hospitalized for the Delta variant interviewed on TV. They say things along the lines of, "I should have gotten the vaccine." They blame themselves. None of them blame other people for not wearing masks.
How refreshing to see people taking responsibility for their decisions.
This is black and white thinking which is wrong but also, most importantly to me, boring!
If you will accept any nuances in mask science, you have to accept that some masks stop some particles when worn by some people some of the time.
Note all those qualifers “some.”
Masks work on illnesses transmitted through droplets AKA spit coming out of people's mouths. They do not work on respiratory viruses that transmit via breath. If the mask stopped the breath everyone who put on a mask would instantly pass out.
Initially it was though covid was transmitted via droplets. Remember all the effort put into cleaning surfaces in case a droplet landed on it? Later it was shown this is not how it is transmitted.
iris lilies
8-12-21, 12:35pm
Masks work on illnesses transmitted through droplets AKA spit coming out of people's mouths. They do not work on respiratory viruses that transmit via breath. If the mask stopped the breath everyone who put on a mask would instantly pass out.
Initially it was though covid was transmitted via droplets. Remember all the effort put into cleaning surfaces in case a droplet landed on it? Later it was shown this is not how it is transmitted.
I am a spit talker.
Are you saying my saliva wont carry The Covid to you?
ApatheticNoMore
8-12-21, 12:43pm
I beg to disagree. There have been many many times where you've expressed the opinion of "well they were going to die anyway" whether that was old people, or people with comorbidities or children with issues. Those statements sound cavalier to me. Perhaps you are a very nice person in real life, but you sound rather heartless on this topic over the last year and a half.
+100
And how do we know they were going to die anyway? "Because they died of covid". It's all quite circular, but it's how you have to think if you want to believe it's a just world and everyone gets what they deserve even in a pandemic. Of course since we're all going to die anyway ....
I am a spit talker.
Are you saying my saliva wont carry The Covid to you?
From the CDC:
"How does the virus spread? COVID-19 spreads when an infected person breathes out droplets and very small particles that contain the virus."
You cannot breathe through spit because spit is a liquid and people cannot breathe through liquids. That is why we have to hold our breath when we are under water.
From WebMD:
"The chance of COVID-19 surface transmission is less than 1 in 10,000."
Your spit might give me other illnesses but not covid.
iris lilies
8-12-21, 1:09pm
From the CDC:
"How does the virus spread? COVID-19 spreads when an infected person breathes out droplets and very small particles that contain the virus."
You cannot breathe through spit because spit is a liquid and people cannot breathe through liquids. That is why we have to hold our breath when we are under water.
From WebMD:
"The chance of COVID-19 surface transmission is less than 1 in 10,000."
Your spit might give me other illnesses but not covid.
how is a droplet different from spit? By “spit” I could be spreading spray.
A droplet could come from your nose - if you don't blow your nose into a handkerchief or tissue, but let your snot drop down onto something. So droplet is not a synonym for spit.
So you see these people with the mask covering their mouth but under their nose. If masks work they should be doing the opposite - have it over their nose and their mouth can be free. But masks are not designed like that.
No, I think droplets are the wet particles that come out of your mouth in the air, and that's why they forbade public singing, because they propelled farther.
From the CDC:
"How does the virus spread? COVID-19 spreads when an infected person breathes out droplets and very small particles that contain the virus."
So Tybee are you saying that there are a bunch of mouth breathers out there spreading covid?
I only mouth breathe when my nose is stuffed up due to a cold. It is not normal behavior for me.
Chicken lady
8-12-21, 1:35pm
I am sorry- the teacher in me can not resist the following, but you are right that being here is keeping me from doing other, better, more important and more useful things, so after this I will go.
you “breathe” through your mouth when you speak. Speech is breath from the lungs traveling over the vocal chords and being shaped by the motion of the mouth.
iris lilies
8-12-21, 1:41pm
Many decades of being stuffed up with allergies makes me largely a mouth breather.
it is not unusual.
I normally breathe through my nose. This is why if I pull a mask below my nose I can breathe easily even though my mouth is covered. This is true whether I am speaking or not.
If I am sick I breathe through my mouth. It is not comfortable and is not my preferred way to breathe.
YMMV.
happystuff
8-12-21, 8:09pm
The problem of "writing off" those with other health conditions is the fact that they are ALIVE with those conditions UNTIL they get Covid! So, yes, many people with other health issues did die FROM Covid! If they hadn't gotten Covid, they could still be alive - albeit, living with other health issues, but ALIVE.
happystuff
8-12-21, 8:10pm
I am sorry- the teacher in me can not resist the following, but you are right that being here is keeping me from doing other, better, more important and more useful things, so after this I will go.
you “breathe” through your mouth when you speak. Speech is breath from the lungs traveling over the vocal chords and being shaped by the motion of the mouth.
I hope you mean "go" from the thread and NOT the forums!!!! I enjoy your posts!
To all the people who said that I was heartless because I, like most Americans, don't like to wear masks (ditch the mandate and you'll see how few wear them voluntarily) saying "masks are needed to protect chemo patients who can't get vaccinated" you were wrong. I heard Dr. Fauci interviewed today and they and transplant recipients have been getting vaccines, but they aren't as effective in this population which is why they will be getting boosters soon.
Protection in layers. The vaccines help but for some people they aren’t enough. Masks help but obviously they’d line aren’t enough. Social distancing helps but isn’t enough because we can’t do it completely. Put all 3 together and now we have an actual plan to limit sickness and death.
frugal-one
8-12-21, 9:32pm
There was no berating. She politely expressed a different opinion. You however, were intentionally cruel.
And overbearing on the stupid subject of masks!!!
Chicago announced today there have been about 350ish known cases of the plague from Lollapalooza two weeks ago. Something like 380K people here. They were surprised there weren’t more cases.
happystuff
8-12-21, 9:38pm
Chicago announced today there have been about 350ish known cases of the plague from Lollapalooza two weeks ago. Something like 380K people here. They were surprised there weren’t more cases.
Did all 380K get tested? LOL. Just kidding. I imagine there were only 350ish cases REPORTED.
Like I said 350ish KNOWN cases.
Did all 380K get tested? LOL. Just kidding. I imagine there were only 350ish cases REPORTED.
All were either tested or vaccinated prior to the concert.
Protection in layers. The vaccines help but for some people they aren’t enough. Masks help but obviously they’d line aren’t enough. Social distancing helps but isn’t enough because we can’t do it completely. Put all 3 together and now we have an actual plan to limit sickness and death.
And I suppose you want us to do all three forever. Because covid will never disappear. How else should we turn our lives upside down to protect the few immunocompromised people from innumerable other germs out there? Should we shut down the economy again? Walk around in hazmat suits?
After all according to some even one death is too much.
Maybe we should ban alcohol, or driving, because if hit by a drink driver an immunocompromised person would have a harder time surviving injuries. Or how about driving up the cost of cars by mandating they all come equipped with breathalyzers? (Not you, but someone else here recommended that.)
I remember when chemo patients had to limit their contacts with others while in treatment, but why should they? Let's make everyone else alter their behavior instead, and let's put the full force of the government behind it by mandating it.
Went to the grocery store yesterday and now even some of the employees aren't wearing masks despite the sign on the doors saying masks regardless of vax status. :laff: Hard to say anything to us maskless customers when we can point out employees doing the same.
Went to the grocery store yesterday and now even some of the employees aren't wearing masks despite the sign on the doors saying masks regardless of vax status. :laff: Hard to say anything to us maskless customers when we can point out employees doing the same.
I started going any which way down the supermarket aisles when I saw store employees ignoring the arrow marks.
happystuff
8-13-21, 10:59am
Went to the grocery store yesterday and now even some of the employees aren't wearing masks despite the sign on the doors saying masks regardless of vax status. :laff: Hard to say anything to us maskless customers when we can point out employees doing the same.
I just got back a little while ago and I would guestimate that close to two-thirds of the customers were in masks and, of the employees I saw - about 95% were masked.
I started going any which way down the supermarket aisles when I saw store employees ignoring the arrow marks.
I don't think anyone paid attention to the arrows near me. I don't think anyone paid attention to a lot of the rules/restrictions near me to be honest. I wore my mask, stayed 6 feet away, tried to walk the right way down aisles, etc but now that I am free from the mask, I won't go back and luckily, my County isn't enforcing the mandate.
Jane v2.0
8-13-21, 11:10am
Both Oregon and Washington have indoor mask mandates at the moment, due to spikes.
The CDC experts (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html) call the protection cloth masks give to others "source control": the cloth traps droplets from leaving your mouth and prevents them from entering the air. "Upwards of 80% blockage," the CDC says.
So, the cloth mask you wear helps protect others. What about protecting you from others? The scientists at CDC say that mask quality varies, and that multi-layered cloth protects the wearer better than single layers... Said one report, (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html) "Studies demonstrate that cloth mask materials can also reduce wearers' exposure to infectious droplets through filtration, including filtration of fine droplets and particles less than 10 microns." (Note: One inch is 25,400 microns, so 10 microns is a pretty tiny droplet). (CNN)
rosarugosa
8-14-21, 6:14am
I started going any which way down the supermarket aisles when I saw store employees ignoring the arrow marks.
It never seemed like anyone paid attention to those arrows but me and DH (I'm sure this is n exaggeration but that's how it seemed), so I was relieved when they finally got rid of the arrows.
And I suppose you want us to do all three forever. Because covid will never disappear. How else should we turn our lives upside down to protect the few immunocompromised people from innumerable other germs out there? Should we shut down the economy again? Walk around in hazmat suits?
After all according to some even one death is too much.
Maybe we should ban alcohol, or driving, because if hit by a drink driver an immunocompromised person would have a harder time surviving injuries. Or how about driving up the cost of cars by mandating they all come equipped with breathalyzers? (Not you, but someone else here recommended that.)
I remember when chemo patients had to limit their contacts with others while in treatment, but why should they? Let's make everyone else alter their behavior instead, and let's put the full force of the government behind it by mandating it.
Yes, if only because I know that it will piss you off forever.
But seriously, if everyone either got vaccinated or always stayed home if they don’t want to get vaccinated then we would have a shot at reaching herd immunity and wouldn’t need to do the rest. But that ain’t gonna happen anytime soon.
If people are dead set against vaccines, the least they can do is sequester themselves and/or only interact with others from a distance wearing a well-fitted mask.
If people are dead set against vaccines, the least they can do is sequester themselves and/or only interact with others from a distance wearing a well-fitted mask.
Exactly. Like IL’s husband and the one friend I have that refuses to get it.
gimmethesimplelife
8-15-21, 8:20am
Something this coronavirus has made clear to me - along with global warming and the recent 116F in Portland, OR - we humans think we run the show but more and more I'm thinking Mother Nature trumps (no political pun intended) what we consider our power. That a microscopic virus can originate on the other side of the planet and spread worldwide and upend all our lives - and still mutate as it wishes with no real human checks and balances on mutation - exactly how much of the show do we run? Food for though perhaps. Rob
happystuff
8-15-21, 9:00am
Definitely food for thought, Rob. I was hit with similar thoughts a couple months back. Initially it all seems/seemed so hopeless, but finding and doing even the littlest things in my power has helped. I know that while we (humans in general) don't run the whole show, we do and can have an effect on things - both positive and negative. I'm back to trying to be positive.
iris lilies
8-15-21, 10:05am
Something this coronavirus has made clear to me - along with global warming and the recent 116F in Portland, OR - we humans think we run the show but more and more I'm thinking Mother Nature trumps (no political pun intended) what we consider our power. That a microscopic virus can originate on the other side of the planet and spread worldwide and upend all our lives - and still mutate as it wishes with no real human checks and balances on mutation - exactly how much of the show do we run? Food for though perhaps. Rob
i posted something similar on this or another thread. It is awe inspiring that nature can still affect so much of our lives in a surprise attack. Way to go you, Mother Nature! Wipe out a chunk of those humans!
i posted something similar on this or another thread. It is awe inspiring that nature can still effect so much of our lives in a surprise attack. Way to go you, Mother Nature! Wipe put a chunk of those humans!
And this is why I don't think humans will, anytime soon, be moving away from planet earth. It's hard enough to stay alive on a planet that we evolved for over thousands and thousands of years to be compatible with. Any other planet will doubtless have many dangers that our bodies simply aren't built to survive or just deficiencies of stuff necessary for us to live.
And this is why I don't think humans will, anytime soon, be moving away from planet earth. It's hard enough to stay alive on a planet that we evolved for over thousands and thousands of years to be compatible with. Any other planet will doubtless have many dangers that our bodies simply aren't built to survive or just deficiencies of stuff necessary for us to live.
Like natural beauty, if Mars and Venus are any indicator.
And this is why I don't think humans will, anytime soon, be moving away from planet earth. It's hard enough to stay alive on a planet that we evolved for over thousands and thousands of years to be compatible with. Any other planet will doubtless have many dangers that our bodies simply aren't built to survive or just deficiencies of stuff necessary for us to live.
Oh, I think eventually we will just build our own planets to suit. It’s just a question of technology and economics.
happystuff
8-15-21, 8:09pm
Oh, I think eventually we will just build our own planets to suit. It’s just a question of technology and economics.
My first thought here was floaty chairs, lots of tv and... what was in those cups??? LOL (re. Wall-E)
It would be cheaper to just build a great big habitable indoors here. Lock the poor riffraff outside in the unlivable reality and let them die.
Depressing assessment of the likely coming surge of kids getting covid. TLDR: It's expected that without mitigating strategies (masks, mandatory staff/teacher vaccinations) that 80% of the 34 million kids who haven't yet had covid will get it in the next two months. 1% of kids who get covid go to the hospital. 1/3 of those are sick enough to need an ICU. The math doesn't work. Pediatric hospitals will be overwhelmedd so that not only will covid patients be able to get adequate care, every other child that needs a hospital will also not get adequate care.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1426318422808449029.html
not only will covid patients be able to get adequate care,
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1426318422808449029.html
If they get adequate care, why the panic?
If they get adequate care, why the panic?
By all means, don't read the article.
There are a lot of unknowns about the long-term effects of COVID (hasn't this been discussed before?), including some troubling indications of brain involvement.
There are a lot of unknowns about the long-term effects of COVID (hasn't this been discussed before?), including some troubling indications of brain involvement.
Apparently one of the early stages is Mask Derangement Syndrome :-)
flowerseverywhere
8-16-21, 3:24pm
reading your posts through the years you are extremely informed, logical and non hysterical. Your info was my initial feeling when Coronavirus news starting coming out. Our medical system is already taxed in many places.
looking at the breakdown of deaths, they are largely skewed towards 60 years old and up.
The cat is out of the bag, so to speak and the known cases are multiplying at frighteningly rapid rates. It is almost everywhere in the world now, with a very high mortality rate.
Besides the obvious health implications, this could have a big effect on the world economy. With large portions of China on lockdown, exports will be strained and as we all know, it is hard to find an article of clothing or any item for that matter made in North America. Retail and other service jobs such as restaurants and truck transport are such huge parts of our economy if people stay home and transport slows down (ie.people are afraid to fly, eat out or go to stores) we could be in for a rough ride.
This was my response the Bae’s initial warning about how big this was going to be 18 months ago. I have not posted on a very long time as I was pretty disgusted with some of the comments. how dare people not care that children are getting sick. That people have died and many have long covid. That people won’t get the shot because some politician or Internet or TV fraudster has put doubts in their mind.
fast onward to today. I was hospitalized with bacterial pneumonia early this summer. The ambulance took me to a hospital with no Covid patients and yet they still allowed no visitors in the ER and very restricted visitors once I was admitted. I had gotten the pneumonia vaccine but it was a bacteria my body was not able to fight against. I don’t remember the first three days at all, but was able to get out of the hospital in a week. It has taken months and I am still not fully recovered. You know what the nurses told me? They were so happy when they saw it wasn’t Covid. They were so burnt out from having multiple patients die a day and they could not even get a patient to the morgue fast enough there were so many patients waiting for a bed.
fast forward to now, I still have some difficulty breathing but can do almost everything I did before, just sometimes not as quickly. I am alive and expected to improve more. There has been a psychological toll on me.
so as a high risk individual living in The Covid capital of the world, Florida I’m going to post next what it is like here now.
iris lilies
8-16-21, 3:39pm
This was my response the Bae’s initial warning about how big this was going to be 18 months ago. I have not posted on a very long time as I was pretty disgusted with some of the comments. how dare people not care that children are getting sick. That people have died and many have long covid. That people won’t get the shot because some politician or Internet or TV fraudster has put doubts in their mind.
fast onward to today. I was hospitalized with bacterial pneumonia early this summer. The ambulance took me to a hospital with no Covid patients and yet they still allowed no visitors in the ER and very restricted visitors once I was admitted. I had gotten the pneumonia vaccine but it was a bacteria my body was not able to fight against. I don’t remember the first three days at all, but was able to get out of the hospital in a week. It has taken months and I am still not fully recovered. You know what the nurses told me? They were so happy when they saw it wasn’t Covid. They were so burnt out from having multiple patients die a day and they could not even get a patient to the morgue fast enough there were so many patients waiting for a bed.
fast forward to now, I still have some difficulty breathing but can do almost everything I did before, just sometimes not as quickly. I am alive and expected to improve more. There has been a psychological toll on me.
so as a high risk individual living in The Covid capital of the world, Florida I’m going to post next what it is like here now.
So sorry to hear this!
So glad to hear from you, flowers, but so sorry to hear of the health challenges you have been going through. The pandemic has taken a psychological toll in so many ways on care providers, families, healthcare in all its forms and so on in addition to the patients themselves often suffering with other health issues.
Take care of yourself.
Just ignore the posts that seem so inappropriate. Rebutting or presenting with scientific facts does not appear to register is my observation.
I have friends who travel south every winter who are struggling with what to do this year. Some other friends bought a Florida condo in May 2021. Not saying or hearing much until they decide what they are going to do this fall.
Snowbirds income is important to the US.
frugal-one
8-16-21, 5:37pm
It would be cheaper to just build a great big habitable indoors here. Lock the poor riffraff outside in the unlivable reality and let them die.
This post sounds like another person on this site who is constantly saying it is ok to let others die... yada yada yada
frugal-one
8-16-21, 5:40pm
If they get adequate care, why the panic?
Let's hope it happens to you. Hey, you'd get "adequate" care.
flowerseverywhere
8-16-21, 6:21pm
Update from Florida. ICU’s and hospitals full. A few evenings ago news showed ambulances waiting outside of ER’s to offload patients. A friend had a cardiac event and went by ambulance. ER was a zoo and she was treated in the hallway and put in a conference room with several other non Covid patients as rooms were full. We have the highest rate of children sick.
Governor Ron Death Sentence has an executive order forbidding mask mandates in schools. A few districts have them and he first said he would deny funding, and now he is trying to work around that illegal idea by subtracting school official and school boards salary from the funding they get. He is selling t shirts that say “don’t Fauci my Florida” on his website, as well as beer cozies that say “ how in the hell am I supposed to drink my beer with a mask on”.
everywhere you go, there are crowds with no masks. Packed bars and restaurants, lots of tourists whooping it up deporting the virus back to their states when they go home. State is around 50% vaccinated.
doctors are pleading with Gov. trying to get him to reverse his decision. Lots of schools already showing increased cases in the second week of school.
when I leave my house I double mask. I was mask shamed the other day, a lady practically screamed at me “ take those filthy rags off your face”. I had to stop in a bank to sign some papers. The other bank patrons were shocked. I asked her if she went to medical school at Tucker Carlson University or the Internet because I was listening to the MD who just saw my latest lung CT and maybe they would be interested in her professional opinion. She stomped off. I don’t leave the house much, but that was not my first mask shaming.
so I don’t want to hear any crap about masks, or people getting adequate care. Children are lying in hospital beds. Over 1,000 people died in Florida last week. Cases keep going up breaking state records. ER’s, ICU’s and hospitals are full.
I would dare any anti-Vax or mask deniers to spend on day caring for these very sick children gasp for breath and possibly have long term symptoms.
This is not anything to be taken lightly. We are 18 months in and should be doing much better. Get the vaccine, social distance, mask up when you are around people inside. There is little difference to me between murderers and people who defy medical advice and put others, especially children, at risk of disease and death.
how can anything be more important (including your so called “Free Dumb” than protecting the welfare and health of children? It gives me nightmares to think of the kids suffering.
It feels like a never-ending circus. When did Americans get so dumb? I am sorry for your illness, Flowers, and for people who would verbally shame someone for wearing a mask.
happystuff
8-16-21, 6:29pm
flowers, so sorry to hear what you have been going through. Glad you are on the mend, even if very, very slowly! Also, thanks for the first-hand Florida updates! So, so sad.
This post sounds like another person on this site who is constantly saying it is ok to let others die... yada yada yada
Hopefully it came through that that was snark. But true. Whether we decide to colonize another planet or build a mega enclosed habitat here because the planet is no longer livable it’s not going to be poor people who get invited to participate.
iris lilies
8-16-21, 7:30pm
Asking carefully: my child could still wear a mask in school tho, right? There is nothing forbidding that individual freedom, right?
Our nom vaxxed Florida relatives had Covid,a,couple of weeks ago and came out of it ok.
ApatheticNoMore
8-16-21, 7:34pm
Asking carefully: my child could still wear a mask in school tho, right? There is nothing forbidding that individual freedom, right?
maybe bullying? I mean if adults are bullying other adults about wearing a mask, then imagine a bunch of kids ... yea.
Homeschooling is also an option, or schooling with other likeminded people in a pod.
If I were a school administrator I would try to set up masked classrooms and non masked classrooms and teachers and students/parents could choose which one they want to be in.
Of course they'll all be maskfree when they eat in the cafeteria so the masks are pointless, but it would keep people happy. (Unless some people want to feed the kids through IVs so they can keep their masks on.)
happystuff
8-16-21, 7:37pm
Mute point at the school I work at - letter already went out to parents saying both staff and students must be masked, as well as anyone who enters the school. There are no students yet and I still must be masked -- but you all know by now that it's no issue for me. :)
Teacher Terry
8-16-21, 7:39pm
Flowers, so sorry to hear about how sick you were. I know from personal experience that having pneumonia is horrible. I can’t believe a stranger would comment on your mask. Thanks for sharing what’s happening in Florida.
frugal-one
8-16-21, 8:01pm
Hopefully it came through that that was snark. But true. Whether we decide to colonize another planet or build a mega enclosed habitat here because the planet is no longer livable it’s not going to be poor people who get invited to participate.
Yep
Hopefully you don't hit a pay wall on this enlightening article from Bloomberg about covid hospitalizations in Florida:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-14/florida-seniors-hospitalized-with-covid-as-much-as-in-january
Some highlights:
Mortalities are trending 70 to 75% below previous peaks
The elderly who are largely vaccinated are being hospitalized at the same numbers for covid as they were in January - this is not an overwhelmingly young group impacted by Delta despite media stories
Seniors who are completely asymptomatic are checking themselves into the hospital because the media has scared them about Delta
My commentary:
We need to stop the media feeding frenzy over Delta. If people with no symptoms are checking themselves into the hospitals, no wonder the hospitals are full!!!!
Chicken lady
8-16-21, 8:48pm
Yes iris lilies, if you child has the emotional strength, they can invest their energy in wearing a mask to primarily protect the people around them who are demonstrating no interest in protecting your child. This will definitely interfere with their ability to learn. Or at least to learn the curriculum content being taught by their teachers. Many experiences are learning experiences.
Flowers, thank you.
I enjoy seeing how people who cherry pick articles from the Web interpret them to reinforce their own ....interesting...beliefs.
Alas, I'm stuck actually rolling up my sleeves and dealing with patients.
ApatheticNoMore
8-16-21, 10:59pm
Tell me why we might not all be Florida in a few weeks? But higher vaccination rates among the over 16? Well yes maybe but is this even true? If we include kids vaccinations rates may not be that much higher. However ... Florida is ahead of maybe much of the country in opening schools for this year. We aren't 2 weeks into opening schools here, so if it's going to hit schools we won't see the impact quite yet.
We’re not all Florida because most states don’t have pro-death Republican governors mandating no mask mandates.
Jane v2.0
8-16-21, 11:53pm
States with a high percentage of vaccinated citizens, mask requirements, and public spaces requiring proof of vaccination shouldn't end up like Florida. We've had a spike, but nothing catastrophic. So far.
ApatheticNoMore
8-17-21, 12:44am
States with a high percentage of vaccinated citizens, mask requirements, and public spaces requiring proof of vaccination shouldn't end up like Florida.
But even the high percentage may not be that high.
I mean Florida 50% or so vaccinated. California 54%.
Part of the problem is these numbers include kids who can't get vaccinated (numbers excluding kids are higher for any state). Sure California may be a blue state, and FL has De Santis but the percentages may not be that different. Do many public spaces anywhere require proof of vaccination? A few bars as far as I can tell. But some jobs esp government are requiring it.
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html
But major population centers have more vaccination? Major population centers in Florida do too, Miami-Dade county for instance as far as I am able to tell.
San Francisco and NYC are requiring vaccines to do most indoor stuff in public. And in SF masks are mandated in all indoor public spaces. It will be interesting to watch how they compare to other large cities where people have the ‘freedom’ to not make any effort to protect other people from a deadly pandemic. *
*Perhaps someone smarter than me can explain the point in time when freedom came to mean ‘not having to do things that are for the good of society at large’. Or has freedom always meant that but we’re just at a point in time where being antisocial is a more acceptable behavior than it once was?
flowerseverywhere
8-17-21, 6:46am
A difference in Florida is the whole state attracts tourists. Theme parks, beaches, golf and so on. Since there are no masking requirements and it is easy for east coasters to drive here, we get a lot of visitors. Planes are flying in from international destinations and Orlando airport is as busy as ever. Cruise ships are sailing in and out or have plans to shortly resume. The Governor has forbidden cruise ships to require masks, although one cruise line, I believe Celebrity has fought it successfully (so far).
so who do you think is likely to come here? Some will who think Covid-19 is a hoax, vaccine deniers and conspiracy theorists come to my mind. Many of the super careful who adhere to CDC guidelines will avoid us like the plague.
So throw all these ingredients together and you have a stew waiting to boil over.
and by the way, you just cannot decide to show up to a hospital and decide you want to check in. When hospitals are full to capacity, it is almost like death panels that Palin warned us about. Ironically they have been set in motion not by the ACA, but an unpredictable virus and some people and politicians not even trying to avoid infection. When there are not enough beds and providers it is a constant juggling act to treat as many people as safely as possible. But human beings are just that. You cannot clone physicians and nurses, EMT’s, medicines, ventilators etc. remember at the height of NY city Covid crisis? People would call 911 and it would take considerable time for them to get there. Just not enough ambulance and staff, and ambulances waiting to offload at packed hospitals, to meet the need.
My grandchildren here go back to school August 31. Right now, they are masking indoors but not outside on the playground.
Honestly, I think by September they will send them home and go remote again, if the numbers continue to rise. Last year the parents could choose all remote, and many did. My granddaughter went 2 days a week remote, 2 days in person, then back all days in the classroom for the last 6 weeks.
My mom's nursing home just reported a case in the rehab center, a fully vaccinated patient who caught it from a healthcare worker at the hospital, prior to admission. So they are under 14 days quarantine again.
Since I am a big believer in online learning (that's how I teach) and very concerned with the unvaccinated children, I am fine with them coming home to learn if need be. Not thrilled, of course, but I am very worried about the little ones getting this Delta variant.
and by the way, you just cannot decide to show up to a hospital and decide you want to check in.
I guess you know more than the reporters at the health care facilities in Florida talking to the health care administrators. Let me guess - you're getting your information from a self-styled expert who lives isolated in a pod on an island off the coast of Washington state. Because he knows everything.
Thank you, flowers, for sharing your personal experience and giving us a window into what is actually going on it Florida.
I think the more we can pool information of what we are actually seeing across the country, the better informed we will all be. That's why I am sharing what is going on here in Maine, where we are 80% vaccinated. But the two latest shut-downs of Mom's facility have been breakthrough cases in vaccinated people.
Maine also contact traces and quarantines the sick for 14 days and the exposed for 10 days.
My grandchildren here go back to school August 31. Right now, they are masking indoors but not outside on the playground.
Honestly, I think by September they will send them home and go remote again, if the numbers continue to rise. Last year the parents could choose all remote, and many did. My granddaughter went 2 days a week remote, 2 days in person, then back all days in the classroom for the last 6 weeks.
My mom's nursing home just reported a case in the rehab center, a fully vaccinated patient who caught it from a healthcare worker at the hospital, prior to admission. So they are under 14 days quarantine again.
Since I am a big believer in online learning (that's how I teach) and very concerned with the unvaccinated children, I am fine with them coming home to learn if need be. Not thrilled, of course, but I am very worried about the little ones getting this Delta variant.
When Covid first made news back in Feb/March 2020 and schools had to scramble to do virtual learning, my youngest would only do certain assignments because he figured they'd never fail kids because online learning was thrown together. I got on him and told him to not be so sure and to do his work. Kept getting updates from the school that he wasn't turning in assignments. Got home from work to see him playing on the computer. Went "mock 1" on him and made him cry (He was 15/16 at the time). Told him to get his *** upstairs and do his work. He literally spent the last day getting everything caught up. Went from F's to A's in literally 8 hours.
This last school year when schools had the opportunity to get virtual learning plan in place, things were a complete 180. He stayed on top of his work and got straight A's the entire year. (He is normally a straight A student so that is also why I got so mad at him copping out of not doing his work before). If he could stay virtual this year, I would be all for it. He didn't have to get up at 5am to catch the bus. There was plenty of downtime during the day to get work done. But this will be his Senior year and I am happy that he will get to have a normal one in person with his peers. But.... I have a feeling that come December, things will change and they will go back 100% virtual. I don't know why because Covid rates have been pretty much null since Covid first started. I know people where I live are against getting vaccinated and I suspect that schools will use that as the reason to go virtual again.
. But this will be his Senior year and I am happy that he will get to have a normal one in person with his peers. But.... I have a feeling that come December, things will change and they will go back 100% virtual. I don't know why because Covid rates have been pretty much null since Covid first started. I know people where I live are against getting vaccinated and I suspect that schools will use that as the reason to go virtual again.
I agree--it's just a feeling I have too, not exactly based on logic, just spidey-sense that they may go remote again.
I hope not for his sake, senior year is so cool. But they might graduate them early or something, too....
I agree--it's just a feeling I have too, not exactly based on logic, just spidey-sense that they may go remote again.
I hope not for his sake, senior year is so cool. But they might graduate them early or something, too....
Last year because schools were partly in person, Seniors were able to have a graduation ceremony. They held it at the school on the football field. Normally parents have to drive almost an hour away to an arena for the ceremony. School said it worked out so well that they may continue it at the school from now on. Works for me! 10 minute drive compared to an hour drive. My oldest graduated in 2019 and he was so happy that he did instead of having graduation taken away from him like the kids in 2020.
I guess you know more than the reporters at the health care facilities in Florida talking to the health care administrators. Let me guess - you're getting your information from a self-styled expert who lives isolated in a pod on an island off the coast of Washington state. Because he knows everything.
This is how Medicare works - you show up at the ER and there's nothing wrong with you. Medicare will not pay the ER charges.
You are admitted "for observation" for 24+ hours and Medicare will pay.
Faced with a patient who cannot or will not pay the ER out of pocket charges, or admitting them to get the Medicare reimbursement, which route do you think a for profit hospital is going to take?
flowerseverywhere
8-17-21, 10:05am
I just put a poster on ignore. What a nice feeling not to be bullied.
let us all hope that this virus gets under control, because after 18 months of this I hope it is not the new normal.
I also hope a family wedding goes as planned on November. They actually married shortly after the virus started, with parents, grandparents and siblings only present, but would love to have their party.
in the meantime, unless,I have something helpful to add, I think I’ll stick to the other threads. My mental health is very important to me and I am so incredibly sad by the disease and death around me. Arguing about it adds to the sadness.
I just put a poster on ignore. What a nice feeling not to be bullied.
let us all hope that this virus gets under control, because after 18 months of this I hope it is not the new normal.
I also hope a family wedding goes as planned on November. They actually married shortly after the virus started, with parents, grandparents and siblings only present, but would love to have their party.
in the meantime, unless,I have something helpful to add, I think I’ll stick to the other threads. My mental health is very important to me and I am so incredibly sad by the disease and death around me. Arguing about it adds to the sadness.
I will reciprocate and put you on ignore.
If dubious information being questioned is bullying, and facts uncovered by reporters are denied as fake news, Lord help us all. Part of the culture of victimization I guess.
Teacher Terry
8-17-21, 1:58pm
Reno is a big tourist destination. We have a mask mandate and most people are following it. Flowers, I laughed when I read the ridiculous statement that seniors that weren’t sick were going to the ER. If anything seniors are putting off medical care as no one wants to be around the virus. I appreciate hearing first hand what’s going on by you.
"An individual with hypochondriasis is known as a hypochondriac. Hypochondriacs become unduly alarmed about any physical or psychological symptoms they detect, no matter how minor the symptom may be, and are convinced that they have, or are about to be diagnosed with, a serious illness [such as covid-19]". I added the words in brackets.
Let me guess - you're getting your information from a self-styled expert who lives isolated in a pod on an island off the coast of Washington state. Because he knows everything.
Well, aren't you precious?....
Oh, here's a picture of a nice pod, T18, I saw right off my beach just this week:
https://i.imgur.com/uPZx8nN.jpg
And a fellow observer:
https://i.imgur.com/PQZCRe6.jpg
happystuff
8-17-21, 6:50pm
Nice, bae!!!
happystuff
8-17-21, 7:43pm
bae, is the totem pole in the picture also an eagle? I can't quite make out the carving(s).
Wow. Afghanistan has ~2% of the population vaccinated....
This should go well.
ToomuchStuff
8-18-21, 12:40am
Wow. Afghanistan has ~2% of the population vaccinated....
This should go well.
If that percentage is the Taliban, that could be a benefit.:~)
Teacher Terry
8-18-21, 1:33am
Bae, the pictures are really beautiful!!
flowerseverywhere
8-20-21, 10:33am
Sara Palins death panels coming soon.
Icu’s in :
Alabama 100% occupied,
Georgia 92%
Florida 93.2%
Mississippi 92%
Texas and Kentucky over 90%
In the meantime people still have strokes, heart attacks, fall down or have car accidents.
it is moving up the country as Florida has lots of tourists celebrating their mask freedom.
stats from Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/08/19/these-6-states-have-almost-no-icu-beds-left-as-covid-hospitalizations-soar/?sh=25c482956bb5
City Manager where I work sent out an email saying employees have to either show proof of vaccination or be subjected to daily testing. I'm thinking that will also get everyone to get the booster too as that will count towards avoiding daily testing as well... probably.
Teacher Terry
8-20-21, 3:35pm
That’s bad news Flowers! So glad I don’t live in those states.
ToomuchStuff
8-21-21, 11:58am
City Manager where I work sent out an email saying employees have to either show proof of vaccination or be subjected to daily testing. I'm thinking that will also get everyone to get the booster too as that will count towards avoiding daily testing as well... probably.
I am wondering if the third will be required. There was an interview with Faucii where he mentioned the new variant was infecting the vaccinated at the same rate as the original was infecting the non vaccinated. Ok, so I would like to see the booster, being modified against the variant, rather then more of the same.
flowerseverywhere
8-21-21, 1:00pm
That’s bad news Flowers! So glad I don’t live in those states.
not so fast. The governors are doing all they can to send it to you.
https://www.cbs42.com/news/local/big-turnout-expected-for-former-president-donald-trumps-rally-in-cullman-saturday/
They expect 20,000 at a Trump rally in Cullman, where they have declared a state of emergency and the hospitals are overwhelmed and full.
Sweden had no lockdown and death rates ten time its neighbors.
https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-strategy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8
it seems so simple. A highly contagious respiratory virus makes many sick and kills about 640,000 people in the US. Many many people took precautions by stayed home when not working, wore a mask, and got the vaccine when it was their turn. That greatly reduced the hospital numbers. Now the packed hospitals have 95% unvaccinated very ill people who did not do the same. Bars and restaurants around here are packed with maskless patrons. Vaccination rate here about 50%. Seems like a no brainer to me.
I thought today of an illustration of the point I have been trying to make about immunocompromised people and covid.
Think back to the AIDS epidemic. A person would have AIDS and die of pneumonia. But really it was AIDS that killed them. If pneumonia didn't get them (see I am using the gender neutral plural as a singular again - you can teach an old dog new tricks), something like Kaposi's sarcoma would. In either case the real cause of death was AIDS.
Similarly today an immunocompromised person can die "of covid", but if not covid the seasonal flu or something else would have done them in. The underlying condition is the real cause of death.
If someone is 95 did covid kill them or did they of old age? If their immunity is so weak due to chemo, isn't their death really cancer related?
gimmethesimplelife
8-25-21, 9:40pm
One thing I am grateful for work-wise - not only did I break out of food and beverage into something more stable, but at my job we mask up and no one gripes or complains about it. One of the cashiers lost two family members after the time that we in Arizona last Summer were the worst place in the world for the virus - there was a brief period last year where Arizona was actually the worst place in the world (!!!!!) for the virus. And around that time the Borderland that I so love was almost as bad.
Getting back to the point, some of the long term employees remember this cashier's deceased relatives - I'm thinking that this visual - here today, gone tomorrow - was enough to get people masked up beyond anything corporate might have said about it. At least I don't have to deal with politics much about masking up......though some customers are real PITA about it. Rob
I think a lot of people would mask and get the vaccine if they personally knew someone close who either suffered or passed away from Covid. Anecdotal stories on the news don't make the same impression.
I thought today of an illustration of the point I have been trying to make about immunocompromised people and covid.
Think back to the AIDS epidemic. A person would have AIDS and die of pneumonia. But really it was AIDS that killed them. If pneumonia didn't get them (see I am using the gender neutral plural as a singular again - you can teach an old dog new tricks), something like Kaposi's sarcoma would. In either case the real cause of death was AIDS.
Similarly today an immunocompromised person can die "of covid", but if not covid the seasonal flu or something else would have done them in. The underlying condition is the real cause of death.
If someone is 95 did covid kill them or did they of old age? If their immunity is so weak due to chemo, isn't their death really cancer related?
While this is an apt analogy as far as it goes it ignores one CRITICAL difference between HIV and Covid. In order to get infected with HIV one had to have sex with the other infected person. All of us gay men who were having sex back then knew the risk and as a result it was normal behavior to ask "You negative? You play safe?" and then decide what to do from there. Yes there were cases like Kimberly Bergalis that caught it from her chitty dentist and blood transfusion patients before reliable HIV blood tests came into existence, but by and large the people dying of kaposi's sarcoma and all the other horrible infections that killed HIV patients caught HIV by having sex with infected people. They made a conscious decision to risk contracting a fatal illness. Contrast that with the person who gets covid when they go to the grocery store and spend a few minutes in line behind a contagious covid carrier or working the register when a covid carrier comes through their line, or when their relative/friend/neighbor brings them groceries and covid, and the comparison breaks down.
Teacher Terry
8-25-21, 11:46pm
A good friend of mine died from Covid within 3 days. He made the horrible mistake of grocery shopping. He wouldn’t let his wife go because he was faster. She actually should have went instead because her health was better. He liked to spoil and take care of her. They were so very careful. Much different than having unprotected sex.
Grocery stores offer curbside pickup. Walmart is the largest grocer in the US and they offer it. 90% of Americans live within 10 miles of a Walmart.
If someone is so seriously ill they will die from a respiratory infection despite getting a vaccine that renders the disease asymptomatic in a healthy person then they should protect themselves instead of making everyone else alter their behavior forever. I say forever because covid will at most go dormant. It will not go away.
A good friend of mine died from Covid within 3 days. He made the horrible mistake of grocery shopping. He wouldn’t let his wife go because he was faster. She actually should have went instead because her health was better. He liked to spoil and take care of her. They were so very careful. Much different than having unprotected sex.
Was he fully vaccinated?
Triage is when "who can survive" is used to treat patients in a mass casualty event. We might get to that point and vaccination used as the cut off. Legitimate discussion. Who comes in first does not work.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/08/19/vaccination-status-may-be-considered-to-get-icu-beds-at-dallas-area-hospitals-if-covid-spread-worsens/?sh=370edc961620&fbclid=IwAR0fcMHQu6U-3eOO7J7VHpQfArScPg4GH4eFfQ4iyTrcacj4lmx5pZiybSs
flowerseverywhere
8-26-21, 6:17am
Triage is when "who can survive" is used to treat patients in a mass casualty event. We might get to that point and vaccination used as the cut off. Legitimate discussion. Who comes in first does not work.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/08/19/vaccination-status-may-be-considered-to-get-icu-beds-at-dallas-area-hospitals-if-covid-spread-worsens/?sh=370edc961620&fbclid=IwAR0fcMHQu6U-3eOO7J7VHpQfArScPg4GH4eFfQ4iyTrcacj4lmx5pZiybSs
here in Florida ICU’s are 93% full. The lines for testing snake around pharmacies and urgent cares. Nearest hospital to me is 100% full. A friend hurt her back and went to urgent care yesterday afternoon. She was told to go to the back of the line whether or not she was there for a Covid test. when she finally checked in they would call her when it was her turn to be seen and to wait in her car or somewhere outside. She was called to enter the building almost two hours later. Who knows when she would have actually been seen. By that time she had called her MD office who had directed her there and they told her they would see her at the end of the day they had so many patients. At 6 pm she was finally seen, x-rayed and given flexeral and a follow up appt in a few days. They normally close at 5 and there were several patients left in the waiting room.
how many important things will be missed due to this Governor and the policies his Greed over People stance have caused. No masks, everyone wide open, tourists please come because even though young people are sick and dying, he does not care. Because people still have strokes, auto accidents, cardiac events, falls and cancers. Medical personnel can only do so much, from EMT’s, nurses, physicians, lab techs, radiologists etc. what choices will be made, and how many excess non Covid people will die?
and by the way, when I worked as a nurse we used to participate in disaster drills. Making the decision who to prioritize when you are totally overwhelmed is a grim task indeed. A small error in judgement or missing a small detail can lead to death.
flowerseverywhere
8-26-21, 6:25am
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/26/us/covid-florida-doctor-cancer-patient/index.html
cancer patient turned away.
Chicken lady
8-26-21, 6:37am
Pinkytoe,
one of my kids works in a very macho/deep red leaning industry. Mask compliance was poor and loudly derided, vaccination stats were low. Now one of her coworkers - a “big, healthy young guy” is in the hospital. The company has reinstated the mask requirement and people are complying. Her boss - who was a big complainer, is not only wearing his mask constantly and correctly, he’s encouraging everyone to get vaccinated because “I don’t want another member of my team out with this!” She is hoping the sick coworker comes back and tells everybody how bad his hospital bills were.
so - silver lining? - a lot more people are going to “know a guy” in the next couple of months.
Grocery stores offer curbside pickup. Walmart is the largest grocer in the US and they offer it. 90% of Americans live within 10 miles of a Walmart.
If someone is so seriously ill they will die from a respiratory infection despite getting a vaccine that renders the disease asymptomatic in a healthy person then they should protect themselves instead of making everyone else alter their behavior forever. I say forever because covid will at most go dormant. It will not go away.
Glad to see that your empathy level has moved up from ‘old people are worthless and will die anyway’ to ‘old and frail people can just stay home for the rest of their miserable lives. They can order groceries online so what’s the problem???’
Glad to see that your empathy level has moved up from ‘old people are worthless and will die anyway’ to ‘old and frail people can just stay home for the rest of their miserable lives. They can order groceries online so what’s the problem???’
Or they could wear a mask or a face shield or a hazmat suit or whatever makes them feel comfortable. We all need to be responsible for our own health, not put that on other people for the rest of their lives. Should we all walk around in big sterile bubbles to protect bubble boys? They are also immunocompromised.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/07/us/the-boy-in-the-bubble-moved-a-world-he-couldnt-touch.html
Or they could wear a mask or a face shield or a hazmat suit or whatever makes them feel comfortable. We all need to be responsible for our own health, not put that on other people for the rest of their lives. Should we eliminate all hard surfaces in the world because bubble boys might bump into them? After all it isn't fair to make bubble boy live in a bubble. Bubble boy has a right to roam the world and the world must change for him. No hard surfaces! Ban hard surfaces! Let's wrap everything in bubble wrap!!
Sorry about my previous post. I was mistaken.
Sorry about my previous post. I was mistaken.
The most famous bubble boy was not a hemophiliac concerned about bumping into things but someone with SCID (severe compromised immunodeficiency). I have corrected my previous post to reflect this. FYI to other forum members - JP1 quoted an older version of my post before I could correct it. But the principle in either case is the same - the degree to which the many must suffer for the benefit of the few - in the current pandemic context 99.99% of the time the few who could be vaccinated but refuse.
COVID is more than a simple respiratory infection; it has far-reaching sequelae, including nervous system--brain damage--and circulatory involvement.
SCID has far-reaching sequelae. Should we all walk around in bubbles to avoid contaminating bubble boys with their weakened immune systems?
catherine
8-26-21, 11:27am
SCID is not contagious.
COVID is very contagious, and the Delta variant is even moreso.
I try not to enter into this particular conversation because, as with Facebook, I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but I just feel I need to state the obvious here.
SCID is not contagious.
COVID is very contagious, and the Delta variant is even moreso.
I try not to enter into this particular conversation because, as with Facebook, I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but I just feel I need to state the obvious here.
While SCID itself is not contagious, it weakens the immune system so much that pretty much any germ, no matter how innocuous to a regular person, poses a grave risk. I could have a common cold virus and pass it to the bubble boy and kill him. So in that sense it involves contagion.
catherine
8-26-21, 12:10pm
While SCID itself is not contagious, it weakens the immune system so much that pretty much any germ, no matter how innocuous to a regular person, poses a grave risk. I could have a common cold virus and pass it to the bubble boy and kill him. So in that sense it involves contagion.
When contangion can infect and kill not just bubble boys but mothers, fathers, grandparents, friends, colleagues, and even children, I think that makes the two scenarios completely different. It's easy to avoid bubble boys. It's not easy to avoid the average Joe in the street, or your family.
When contangion can infect and kill not just bubble boys but mothers, fathers, grandparents, friends, colleagues, and even children, I think that makes the two scenarios completely different. It's easy to avoid bubble boys. It's not easy to avoid the average Joe in the street, or your family.
That is why the average Joe in the street should get vaccinated. That is why I avoided my parents (and it was not easy) for a year until they could be vaccinated.
I am not about to do this forever, and neither is my mother. She does not have a lot of lifespan left and she's not going to go backwards because vaccines work.
catherine
8-26-21, 12:18pm
That is why the average Joe in the street should get vaccinated. That is why I avoided my parents (and it was not easy) for a year until they could be vaccinated.
I am not about to do this forever, and neither is my mother. She does not have a lot of lifespan left and she's not going to go backwards because vaccines work.
Agreed.
ApatheticNoMore
8-26-21, 12:32pm
I hated my governor for his greed over people stance when the pandemic was bad here too (that was before vaccines but from data I can find, we're only marginally more vaccinated than FL now which may be 70% or so adult vaccination but since kids can't get it, that's only 50% overall vaccination. We just have herd immunity + vaccines - because winter was so bad, so the real infection rate is probably at least 50%. Someone has the real estimates no doubt, local public health, they just only rarely kind of mention them, it was estimated to be 1/3 in the winter surge itself and there has been infection since).
It may be with near 100% vaccine coverage now there would be little pandemic anywhere in the U.S. (yes breakthroughs exist but), just one hits a hard wall of the quarter of adults who won't get it plus kids. It's been true here for months, vaccination inches over 70% of eligible population very very slowly.
Back then our govenor wouldn't close down xmas shopping, hospitals got overwhelmed. My anger burned red hot as the bodies piled up, the hospitals were full, they set up outdoor treatments, the crematoriums were full, and why isn't stuff being shut down? All because these are big shopping times of the year? That's it? For business and shopping? While they lift air quality restrictions in order to cremate more people? Those are our values? I could have killed. People were dying.
In the cold sober light of the morning after the pandemic: keep that guy or get Larry Elder ....
I guess I will never subscribe to the idea that society has no duty to worry about the weakest amongst us during an extremely infectious pandemic beyond telling them to stay home for the rest of their lives, never have guests since even vaccinated people can be unknowing carriers, and if you don’t do that and get sick, too bad, so sad, you were probably gonna die sooner rather than later anyway.
I guess I will never subscribe to the idea that society has no duty to worry about the weakest amongst us during an extremely infectious pandemic beyond telling them to stay home for the rest of their lives, never have guests since even vaccinated people can be unknowing carriers, and if you don’t do that and get sick, too bad, so sad, you were probably gonna die sooner rather than later anyway.
You make this sound like a short term event "during an extremely infectious pandemic". Public health authorities want us to wear masks forever. I live in an area that is a success story in terms of vaccination, with ample room in hospitals, and the cry is "cases are going up". Yes, asymptomatic cases that aren't causing hospitalizations or deaths are going up a little, nowhere near where they were before. We have more restrictions here than in states that are facing real covid surges. It is paranoia and politics along party lines. Republican governors (who are not anti-mask because they put mandates in earlier) aren't now because there is no public health emergency so Democratic mayors are putting them in anyways at the local level. It is 100% partisan.
So do you think we should wear masks forever since covid will never go away but at best go dormant? It's been over a year - what would you like? A decade?
ETA: It's like the war in Afghanistan, where there was always an excuse to stay a little longer, due to fear mongering politicians.
Go visit a hospital in Florida and then try and tell me with a straight face that the asshole Republican governors who are currently anti-mask are anti-mask because there’s no emergency.
Go visit a hospital in Florida and then try and tell me with a straight face that the asshole Republican governors who are currently anti-mask are anti-mask because there’s no emergency.
Come to my state (Massachusetts) which is what I wrote about. Come to Vermont. Come to New Hampshire. All have Republican governors who imposed mask mandates at the height of the pandemic but realize there is no need for them in New England now.
JP do you think people in the Third World should wear masks for the rest of their lives because you and others like you will be taking up the vaccine doses with boosters every 8 months?
Hmmm - I wonder if this will lead to the sort of anti-American hostility that propelled the Taliban to power. Everything is connected to masks when you look deeply enough.
Everything is connected to masks when you look deeply enough.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/762/009/74d.jpg
While this is an apt analogy as far as it goes it ignores one CRITICAL difference between HIV and Covid. In order to get infected with HIV one had to have sex with the other infected person. All of us gay men who were having sex back then knew the risk and as a result it was normal behavior to ask "You negative? You play safe?" and then decide what to do from there. Yes there were cases like Kimberly Bergalis that caught it from her chitty dentist and blood transfusion patients before reliable HIV blood tests came into existence, but by and large the people dying of kaposi's sarcoma and all the other horrible infections that killed HIV patients caught HIV by having sex with infected people. They made a conscious decision to risk contracting a fatal illness. Contrast that with the person who gets covid when they go to the grocery store and spend a few minutes in line behind a contagious covid carrier or working the register when a covid carrier comes through their line, or when their relative/friend/neighbor brings them groceries and covid, and the comparison breaks down.
The analogy doesn't break down as much as you think.
The corollary to asking "You negative? You play safe?" today is getting vaccinated. When you're vaccinated you 99.99% of the time are not going to be seriously ill even if you do catch covid.
People can protect themselves from covid. They just don't want to.
Go visit a hospital in Florida and then try and tell me with a straight face that the asshole Republican governors who are currently anti-mask are anti-mask because there’s no emergency.I'm not sure why you think that Republican governors are anti-mask when you could just as easily realize that it's simply that Republican governors are less likely than Democratic governors to use the power of the state to force people to bend to their will. I think it probably boils down to differences of opinion about the sovereignty of the individual vs the power of the state, which is probably the major difference between the two dominant political parties.
Teacher Terry
8-26-21, 2:17pm
Yppej, my friend died in November before vaccines were available. I don’t have any unvaccinated friends or family. Even people that got Covid got vaccinated.
Yppej, my friend died in November before vaccines were available. I don’t have any unvaccinated friends or family. Even people that got Covid got vaccinated.
That's what I figured on your friend who died. Vaccines work and in a post-vaccine world the rules of engagement with others should be different.
You and your social circle should ignore the media fear mongering and enjoy getting together. Too bad you are no longer going to restaurants. Unless someone has had chemo or something like that which would severely interfere with the vaccine's effectiveness you should be good.
On the other hand if people don't want to get vaccinated they should stay home and do curbside pickup of groceries etc.
flowerseverywhere
8-26-21, 2:30pm
I'm not sure why you think that Republican governors are anti-mask when you could just as easily realize that it's simply that Republican governors are less likely than Democratic governors to use the power of the state to force people to bend to their will. I think it probably boils down to differences of opinion about the sovereignty of the individual vs the power of the state, which is probably the major difference between the two dominant political parties.
Although that is selective. Want to own guns? Have at it. Just ignore the 20,000 deaths that happened last year. Want to go maskless? No worries. Who cares that you could spread he variant to unvaccinated children and make them very ill or even die. Birth control or abortion? Oooh….wait a minute. We care about unborn lives and too bad how the mother feels, even if there is a good reason. Those women. They have a lot of nerve thinking they have rights.
and by the way, I have to wear a seatbelt, drive the speed limit, to protect myself and others. We are forced to pay into social security whether or not we want to. Masks and vaccinations? Is “freedom” is more important than a life?
So deathsantis isn’t attempting to use the force of government to bend people to his will when he threatens school district funding if the administrators attempt to keep their students and community safer by following recommended public health guidelines? Interesting theory.
Is “freedom” is more important than a life?
Yes, freedom is more important than a life. That is why many have sacrificed their lives to defend our freedoms. If freedom is not worth a life, then those people died in vain. I don't think they did.
Was freedom for the slaves worth the deaths in the Civil War, which killed more Americans than any war before or since? I think so. You tell me what you think.
Although that is selective. Want to own guns? Have at it. Just ignore the 20,000 deaths that happened last year. Want to go maskless? No worries. Who cares that you could spread he variant to unvaccinated children and make them very ill or even die. Birth control or abortion? Oooh….wait a minute. We care about unborn lives and too bad how the mother feels, even if there is a good reason. Those women. They have a lot of nerve thinking they have rights.
and by the way, I have to wear a seatbelt, drive the speed limit, to protect myself and others. We are forced to pay into social security whether or not we want to. Masks and vaccinations? Is “freedom” is more important than a life?
Oh, I don't think it's as selective as you imply. I think most people agree there's a place in society for abortion when the mother's health is in jeopardy or the baby will be born with severe disabilities, the major difference seems to be whether there should be unfettered access to abortions and whether or not a fetus is a person with an unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Unfortunately, we only hear about the extremists on each side of that debate.
As for your other examples, I think the state has a right to regulate activities on their roads in just the same manner a business has the right to regulate the terms of their service. It's odd that Democrats will agree with the first part of that belief and disagree with the second. It's weird.
Teacher Terry
8-26-21, 2:40pm
Our local positivity rate is 19.5 and our ICU is 91% full so I don’t think I will take your medical advice Yppej. Flowers, I totally agree with you!!
frugal-one
8-26-21, 2:41pm
I like the fact that Delta airlines insurance company will require those who are unvaccinated to pay $200 more per month. Perhaps some will change their minds when it hits them in the pocketbook. Obviously, this would not be the case for those who can't be vaccinated.
So deathsantis isn’t attempting to use the force of government to bend people to his will when he threatens school district funding if the administrators attempt to keep their students and community safer by following recommended public health guidelines? Interesting theory.He isn't preventing anyone from keeping students and community safe, he's just putting the onus of protection on the parents and individuals rather than using the force of the state.
ApatheticNoMore
8-26-21, 2:46pm
I don't think your definition of freedom means anything, so for me it has very little if any value.
There is the freedom to vote and be represented in a democracy, there is a freedom to express political opinions, etc.. But freedom to not wear masks in a pandemic isn't freedom, it's socialization of risk/externalities.
I do have doubts about how effective masking of kids (who let's face it will be lax) is, of highly motivated adults yes but ... But that's not airy conversations about freedom when I don't even accept the definition.
I have thought about getting toothpicks and putting one end against my cheek and the other against the mask to push it out from my face so I can breathe better. If mask mandates continue to proliferate I might try that. Yesterday at the library I just tucked it under my chin when no one was looking and under my nose when people were looking but not right next to me. No one called me out on it. Everyone knows the mandate is stupid for vaccinated people and I told them I was (and that it's too bad I got vaccinated for nothing).
ApatheticNoMore
8-26-21, 2:56pm
Oh, I don't think it's as selective as you imply. I think most people agree there's a place in society for abortion when the mother's health is in jeopardy or the baby will be born with severe disabilities, the major difference seems to be whether there should be unfettered access to abortions and whether or not a fetus is a person with an unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I think men involved in impregnating a woman who doesn't want the baby and can't get an abortion should be castrated. You might say that a vasectomy would suffice, indeed it will prevent the man from doing further damage, but the damage is already done is the problem. If the woman has to endure labor ...
How serious is this proposal? How serious is men (of all things) weighing in on matters that affect biological females exclusively and assuming they have any right to?
I think men involved in impregnating a woman who doesn't want the baby and can't get an abortion should be castrated.
(cough) 8th Amendment (cough)
Barbaric.
I have thought about getting toothpicks and putting one end against my cheek and the other against the mask to push it out from my face so I can breathe better. If mask mandates continue to proliferate I might try that.
https://images.jacobinmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/28062814/Sigmund_Freud_by_Max_Halberstadt_cropped.jpg
He isn't preventing anyone from keeping students and community safe, he's just putting the onus of protection on the parents and individuals rather than using the force of the state.
Except that in a pandemic involving an airborne virus efforts at prevention require everyone to participate in order for the effort to be effective. It’s not much freedom if a parent’s only choice for safety is to keep their kids home from school.
I suppose in the coming years the anti science efforts of republicans will include attempting to shutdown the CDC and fire all local public health officials since they have zero respect for the work those organizations and people do.
iris lilies
8-26-21, 3:11pm
Although that is selective. Want to own guns? Have at it. Just ignore the 20,000 deaths that happened last year. Want to go maskless? No worries. Who cares that you could spread he variant to unvaccinated children and make them very ill or even die. Birth control or abortion? Oooh….wait a minute. We care about unborn lives and too bad how the mother feels, even if there is a good reason. Those women. They have a lot of nerve thinking they have rights.
and by the way, I have to wear a seatbelt, drive the speed limit, to protect myself and others. We are forced to pay into social security whether or not we want to. Masks and vaccinations? Is “freedom” is more important than a life?
Actually, since you asked the question, yes— freedom is more important than one life.
I suppose in the coming years the anti science efforts of republicans will include attempting to shutdown the CDC and fire all local public health officials since they have zero respect for the work those organizations and people do.
Well, during the Trump Years, the CDC was basically gutted, it will take years for it to recover.
And I don't know if you have noticed, but large numbers of local public health officials have been leaving the profession during the pandemic. Good luck getting anyone capable to take those jobs in the future.
"Let's strangle civilization in its cradle" - Some Politician
Actually, since you asked the question, yes— freedom is more important than one life.
What is "freedom"?
What is "freedom"?
Such a good question. Looking forward to hearing responses.
ETA: maybe could be framed as freedom to be able to do certain things without scrutiny as well as freedom from being subjected to certain conditions.
I suppose in the coming years the anti science efforts of republicans will include attempting to shutdown the CDC and fire all local public health officials since they have zero respect for the work those organizations and people do.
I'm not surprised you'd reach that supposition, even though it's silly. ;)
ApatheticNoMore
8-26-21, 3:30pm
I suspect freedom is either the ability to do whatever you want regardless of it's effect on others. Or else it's the powerful doing what they will and the powerless suffering what they must.
Or else it's the powerful doing what they will and the powerless suffering what they must.
So well said.
And yet... what do you think about Victor Frankl's famous assertion:
“The last of the human freedoms: to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. And there were always choices to make. Every day, every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which determined whether you would or would not submit to those powers which threatened to rob you of your very self, your inner freedom; which determined whether or not you become the plaything to circumstance, renouncing freedom and dignity...”
Or else it's the powerful doing what they will and the powerless suffering what they must.
Isn't that exactly what happens when the government gets accustomed to mandating the desire of the day and opponents are ridiculed?
iris lilies
8-26-21, 3:39pm
I suspect freedom is either the ability to do whatever you want regardless of it's effects on others.
That’s not what I said. That’s what you said I would say.
There are all kinds of freedoms that are more important than one life. But, There are all kinds of curtailing of freedoms to protect the life and liberty of others that take place.
Freedom is an abstract concept, that is true. It’s difficult to discuss without getting specific. There will always be lives lost due to freedoms. Always. that will never change.
The devil is in the details. I don’t see any point in arguing “details” with people who are going to pre-determine what my position is.
I have thought about getting toothpicks and putting one end against my cheek and the other against the mask to push it out from my face so I can breathe better.
fwiw- Ocean State Job Lot had these frames intended to go between your face and your mask to keep it away from your face. I think they were a couple of bucks. They were hanging by the aisle they have the toothpaste/personal care items. They also have the blue surgical masks which, at least for me, are less sweat producing that cloth masks.
fwiw- Ocean State Job Lot had these frames intended to go between your face and your mask to keep it away from your face. I think they were a couple of bucks. They were hanging by the aisle they have the toothpaste/personal care items. They also have the blue surgical masks which, at least for me, are less sweat producing that cloth masks.
I love Ocean State Job Lot. Worst part of leaving NJ was no longer having that store 1 mile away. Now I'd have to go to Rutland.
After seeing how poorly our rich and blessed country has handled the pandemic and so many other things, it makes me fairly glad to be the age I am and glad that we did not have kids. What a world we are leaving to the next generation.
And there will be someone who says "they" will fix it.
I'm not surprised you'd reach that supposition, even though it's silly. ;)
Considering that the last president withdrew the US from the WHO and fired the pandemic specialist at the NSC, not to mention all the protestors and people recommending second amendment solutions to the ‘problem’ of public health administrators and the vilification of Dr Fauci by lots of republicans, it doesn’t seem particularly far fetched.
Teacher Terry
8-26-21, 5:52pm
Sweetana, I don’t have grandchildren and that may not be a bad thing.
Isn't that exactly what happens when the government gets accustomed to mandating the desire of the day and opponents are ridiculed?
No, that's what happens when unfettered capitalism has its way, government goes along, and exploitation of the common man is the means to the end.
Well, well, well…
The coworker who said he was going to get the jabs now it was FDA approved got back from
FL a few days. He was in tourist FL. His was down there with just girlfriend who is a nurse and was also unvaxxed.
They’ve both tested postive. He was apparently feeling sick on Saturday. He has NOT been back to the office, which is very good. He’s going to be working from home for at least the next 10 days or until he tests negative.
Mask mandates in Florida schools will be useless. Adults are spreading the disease by socializing with each other in close quarters. And unless you employ drones and other spy technology how will government even know if people are partying never mind stop them. So the battle over masks in schools is all political.
Chicken lady
8-26-21, 7:56pm
Deleted my post to jeppy.
sincere question - is there anybody here who actually thinks there is anything any of us could say to jeppy that would change her mind or attitude about covid or masks?
and if not, again, not a rhetorical question, why do you keep talking to her about it?
eta - also, not talking behind backs, fully confident I am attempting to start this conversation right in front of her. Don’t care, don’t believe anything I say to her will have any impact on her, which is why I’m not addressing her. She told me to stop wasting my time, and it was good advice.
Deleted my post to jeppy.
sincere question - is there anybody here who actually thinks there is anything any of us could say to jeppy that would change her mind or attitude about covid or masks?
and if not, again, not a rhetorical question, why do you keep talking to her about it?
I don't post here much, but I read everyday. I have over 35+ year in the dental field . I have worn masks the entire time without any side effects to my health. I have told Jeppy several times that her phobia to facts is ridiculous. And makes her look silly.
So to that end : Mark Twain was credited with saying " Never argue with stupid people . They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience "
Or as Forrest Gump said " Stupid is as stupid does"
I don't post here much, but I read everyday. I have over 35+ year in the dental field . I have worn masks the entire time without any side effects to my health. I have told Jeppy several times that her phobia to facts is ridiculous. And makes her look silly.
So to that end : Mark Twain was credited with saying " Never argue with stupid people . They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience "
Or as Forrest Gump said " Stupid is as stupid does"
What a bigoted comment. I guess all the special needs students who are exempted from wearing masks for behavioral reasons are "ridiculous", "silly" and "stupid". Because no one should ever have a problem with a mask.
As if someone who voluntarily chooses a profession where they have to wear a mask is in the same category as someone who has no choice in the matter.
What a bigoted comment. I guess all the special needs students who are exempted from wearing masks for behavioral reasons are "ridiculous", "silly" and "stupid". Because no one should ever have a problem with a mask.
As if someone who voluntarily chooses a profession where they have to wear a mask is in the same category as someone who has no choice in the matter.
No... Not bigoted. You are deliberately being ignorant . The facts are there. You try and cheat the system to the detriment of your eye sight. You are actually contemplating poking yourself with tooth picks .... I stand by my first post My 6 year old Grand daughter has Downs Syndrome . We have no problem with her wearing a mask
sincere question - is there anybody here who actually thinks there is anything any of us could say to jeppy that would change her mind or attitude about covid or masks?
and if not, again, not a rhetorical question, why do you keep talking to her about it?
No she will not change her mind, IMO, and that is why I don't respond to any mask posts/threads. Nuff said.
Let's talk about something interesting though; how are your plans for classes going for the new school year with covid issues still impacting personal interaction with the kids which is so important. Are you able to go back to the usual routine of 2019 or do you still need to make special arrangements. I am really interested in your classes as they are unique and I remember you had challenges to deal with teaching in the restrictions of 2020 as did all teachers.
iris lilies
8-26-21, 8:28pm
Deleted my post to jeppy.
sincere question - is there anybody here who actually thinks there is anything any of us could say to jeppy that would change her mind or attitude about covid or masks?
.
no, what is the point?
I think jeppy may have a harder time simply wearing a physical mask than I have, but also I’m not often in a position where I have to wear it for long periods.
I also think there’s much variance in mask science. Make no mistake and don’t jump all over me, because I know that everyone masking up prevents much of the spread of the disease. But the devil is in the details.
no, what is the point?
I think jeppy may have a harder time simply wearing a physical mask than I have, but also I’m not often in a position where I have to wear it for long periods.
I also think there’s much variance in mask science. Make no mistake and don’t jump all over me, because I know that everyone masking up prevents much of the spread of the disease. But the devil is in the details.
And if she has a physical issue... Fine But all of her "fact filled" links she posts claiming that masks don't work is the deliberately ignorant.
And if she has a physical issue... Fine But all of her "fact filled" links she posts claiming that masks don't work is the deliberately ignorant.
A sincere question.....Do all masks work? I ask because I remember reading some time ago about studies showing that most cloth and paper masks provide so little protection as to be statistically useless. However, I've never heard proponents of mandatory masking say anything about what types of masks are acceptable and which are not. To me, that indicates the possibility that all the mask hysteria is mostly theater, well meaning theater but theater none-the-less.
Thank you for bringing up mask science IL and Alan. Here are some relevant articles on the real world efficacy of masks:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9914969/Popular-blue-surgical-face-masks-NOT-stop-people-infected-COVID-19.html
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2021/05/26/new-study-refutes-fauci-efficacy-of-mask-mandates-n2589990
https://www.city-journal.org/do-masks-work-a-review-of-the-evidence
https://www.studyfinds.org/face-masks-wont-stop-covid-indoors/
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/the-science-of-masking-kids-at-school-remains-uncertain.html
Not that I will change some people's minds with facts. It is easier to follow the crowd and look for easy answers.
gimmethesimplelife
8-26-21, 8:50pm
At this point, with the Delta variant spreading like wildfire, I believe, for myself, it would be inappropriate to appear in public mask-free. I would not want to make such a statement about myself, either. To do so would go against how I was raised and much of what I believe in. YMMV and that's fine, you'all do you. But for myself, I will mask up until the Delta variant and any other possibly coming mutations are sorted out. As I see it, it would be UnAustrian to not mask up, and beyond that, it would be anti-society to not mask up.
I am not willing to make such statements about myself and how much or how little I care about other people/society at large. Once again, you'all do you, I realize that not everyone is going to agree with me nor understand me. But I am going to do me here, as you'all do you. Fair enough? Rob
At this point, with the Delta variant spreading like wildfire, I believe, for myself, it would be inappropriate to appear in public mask-free. I would not want to make such a statement about myself, either. To do so would go against how I was raised and much of what I believe in. YMMV and that's fine, you'all do you. But for myself, I will mask up until the Delta variant and any other possibly coming mutations are sorted out. As I see it, it would be UnAustrian to not mask up, and beyond that, it would be anti-society to not mask up.
I am not willing to make such statements about myself and how much or how little I care about other people/society at large. Once again, you'all do you, I realize that not everyone is going to agree with me nor understand me. But I am going to do me here, as you'all do you. Fair enough? Rob
You should have the right to wear a mask, and I should have the right not to. Why don't you read the five articles I just posted and let me know what you think?
I'm especially interested in whether you are wearing an N95 mask specially fitted to your face.
gimmethesimplelife
8-26-21, 9:01pm
You should have the right to wear a mask, and I should have the right not to. Why don't you read the five articles I just posted and let me know what you think?
I'm especially interested in whether you are wearing an N95 mask specially fitted to your face.I realize there's been some friction here with your takes on wearing masks and given that I have in the past been involved in friction on this board, I am not seeking more. As I stated above, you'all do you and I will do me. Me at this point in time is me masking up. How long this will continue to be me - I don't know. It depends on the trajectory of this virus.
But I will read your articles, and no, I am not wearing an N95 mask. Rob
Thank you Rob. I got the articles from one of my city councilors who said I raised valid points.
I'm especially interested in whether you are wearing an N95 mask specially fitted to your face.
Explain to us, oh wise master of all things medical, how the N95 is "specially fitted to your face"?
Waiting....
Chicken lady
8-26-21, 9:10pm
Thank you for asking razz.
We are opening 100% in person, 100% masks, feel free to share your vaccine status or don’t with whomever - we were at 70% staff vaccinated in March and I know some have been vaccinated since (waited a while after being sick or had to wait because they couldn’t make vaccine day and were too young otherwise) and at least two unvaccinated left the building - one quit and one is now full remote paperwork.
we have requirements concerning what types of masks are acceptable (thank you Alan) and if your child is not wearing one, an appropriately sized adult or pediatric mask will be given to them and you will be charged $5.
we will have split lunches to reduce cafeteria occupancy, which I find frustrating and I am unfortunately on the lunch schedule I find less desirable the two days a week I have lunch. This was apologized for, but couldn’t really be changed. (I’m sorry the situation is the way it is GP ;))
outside classrooms available, use strongly encouraged, windows open, hand washing between classes, air purifiers in rooms.
We have reduced spacing to 3ft between students in the classroom, and can use our judgement about letting them work together on something (last year I was not allowed to let students who arrived in the same car after an overnight visit share materials.)
at least two counties in our four county area are mask optional and our enrollment us up 25% over precovid. Mostly in the early grades. We ran out of cubbies in the k-2 rooms.
I got new shelves :) The director told me today again that we will not go remote. She had just had the joy of telling an angry long term problem parent who was remote all year last year that remote would definitely not be an option and no, her child could not attend without a mask and no, we don’t have to take them if they can’t wear a mask (they can wear a mask. They once wore a rubber Halloween head all day) we aren’t a public school and I’m sorry you feel that way - because enrollment is up 25%.
I personally think it’s because we have a mask mandate and promise to stay in person.
open house and orientation for new students and families is Sunday. I have some “new to me” returning students who I won’t meet until the 7th. A few of my kids who are returning to me from last year are already emailing me.
I got new shelves. (Yes, I said that twice - it required minor demolition and reconstruction. I’ve been asking for 11 years. I put stuff on them today.)
ApatheticNoMore
8-26-21, 9:12pm
I wore N95s but not specifically fitted to my face. I don't have that *access*, I'm not medical personnel. The point was do what I was actual capable of doing to not get seriously sick/dead etc.. Not some theoretically optimal thing I couldn't implement - because if one can't have perfection may as well do nothing.
I'm more casual now, because vaccination, I know it's a confusing world out there but yea vaccines seem mostly holding up.
Explain to us, oh wise master of all things medical, how the N95 is "specially fitted to your face"?
Waiting....
Here is a video that shows you the steps.
https://youtu.be/CoSb-HJJ5tk
Now how many people do you think are doing this in real life to get the results from lab studies that "prove" masks are effective at stopping covid-19?
A school where staff don't have to get vaccinated because they think masks will save them - yikes!
Thank you, CL, for the clear info on how classes are coming into being. I think most parents just want to know what is happening with their children and to feel as secure in steps taken as is possible these days. Glad that you finally got the shelves you needed after a wait of 11 years. Wishing you and your students an enjoyable year!
A sincere question.....Do all masks work? I ask because I remember reading some time ago about studies showing that most cloth and paper masks provide so little protection as to be statistically useless. However, I've never heard proponents of mandatory masking say anything about what types of masks are acceptable and which are not. To me, that indicates the possibility that all the mask hysteria is mostly theater, well meaning theater but theater none-the-less.
A valid question. And one which brings up a related one. Why the eff are we still wearing cloth masks well over a year into this? Surely it should have occurred to someone at some level that it would be more effective if we all wore kn94 masks or whatever the ones are that work well but aren’t full on n95 masks. Because of his underlying health risk SO started buying those almost a year ago and has consistently worn them since. At this point they should be strongly recommended and broadly available.
I have wondered if I bought a piece of lace and tied it over my nose and mouth would it qualify as a face covering and meet legal requirements.
Jane v2.0
8-26-21, 10:16pm
A valid question. And one which brings up a related one. Why the eff are we still wearing cloth masks well over a year into this? Surely it should have occurred to someone at some level that it would be more effective if we all wore kn94 masks or whatever the ones are that work well but aren’t full on n95 masks. Because of his underlying health risk SO started buying those almost a year ago and has consistently worn them since. At this point they should be strongly recommended and broadly available.
I've seen tests of masks with a variety of configurations, and they all protect to some degree. There's a YouTube video in which a doctor sews a mask that approximates an N95. I believe it was cotton and melt-blown non-woven fabric. I wear a 2-layer jersey liner with a 2-layer fabric mask plus filter insert, closely fitted to my face. I also have a stock of KN95 masks.
ApatheticNoMore
8-26-21, 10:21pm
Why the eff are we still wearing cloth masks well over a year into this? Surely it should have occurred to someone at some level that it would be more effective if we all wore kn94 masks or whatever the ones are that work well but aren’t full on n95 masks. Because of his underlying health risk SO started buying those almost a year ago and has consistently worn them since. At this point they should be strongly recommended and broadly available.
no kidding. our authorities. fail.
I have wondered if I bought a piece of lace and tied it over my nose and mouth would it qualify as a face covering and meet legal requirements.
Just stop. People already think you’re a sociopath who lacks empathy. Why do you pour gasoline on the fire? We get it. You have no interest in helping keep other people alive. But that’s nothing to brag about by sharing plans to put other people at risk of a fatal disease in the middle of a pandemic. Not all of us think they are about to die and shrug our shoulders when they do.
iris lilies
8-26-21, 11:40pm
Just stop. People already think you’re a sociopath who lacks empathy. Why do you pour gasoline on the fire? We get it. You have no interest in helping keep other people alive. But that’s nothing to brag about by sharing plans to put other people at risk of a fatal disease in the middle of a pandemic. Not all of us think they are about to die and shrug our shoulders when they do.
Or, you could stop.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Or, you could stop.
Or she could stop fantasizing about thwarting the safety provided by masks. It’s creepy and not really defensible. I hope for your sake she wasn’t at the Missouri state fair.
#IDidn'tGetAVaccineForNothing but JP sure thinks I did.
My state which had a positivity rate of 30% at one time is now hovering between 2% and 3% which is prompting unwarranted measures by negative nellies because it used to be 1%.
Delta is quite contagious and it will spread until it moves through the unvaccinated population. There was an uptick after the Fourth of July and you watch there will be another one after Labor Day. It is due to these social gatherings not going to the supermarket or the library.
Chicken lady
8-27-21, 5:59am
Jp1,
it’s because trolls are like stray cats. If you feed them, they stick around.
or it could be that when you are lonely and feeling powerless and failing at in person human relationships, you cling to any source of attention and sense of control you can find. I don’t know. I don’t believe I can have a rational conversation with Yppej, so I’m not asking her. At this point I’m just going off the posts I’ve read. - which gives you only the vision of the person they present filtered through your unmoderated viewpoint. And I’m pretty sure my brain doesn’t work neurotypically, so there’s that.
nobody has tried to explain to me why they are still engaging. I really wanted to know. Do you just enjoy the fight?
Sometimes when people are feeling powerless because they won't give up on a farm and a full-time job where they are always unhappy with the administration and a husband who's off working nights while they struggle to keep their clutter under control they resort to snarky comments. They won't go for counseling because they are used to and comfortable with the dysfunction and afraid to change. You can't have rational conversations with them because they are going to attack you to deflect attention from their own situation.
Sometimes when people are feeling powerless because they won't give up on a farm and a full-time job where they are always unhappy with the administration and a husband who's off working nights while they struggle to keep their clutter under control they resort to snarky comments. They won't go for counseling because they are used to and comfortable with the dysfunction and afraid to change. You can't have rational conversations with them because they are going to attack you to deflect attention from their own situation.
Wow. Project much? You're underemployed, in a falling down house with a mentally ill son in a co dependent relationship, with friends abandoning you and you have the nerve to strike out at Chicken Lady this way? Just wow.
With all you have going wrong in your own life, one might think you'd have some empathy for others that are struggling. But you just choose to be mean and cruel.
There are people that we strongly disagree with in real life. We don't change others' thinking and behaviour in real life. We simply choose to disengage or avoid as we are able. On SLF, can we not do the same and simply ignore the rants or obsessive behaviour in posts? I have noticed that a number of members have already chosen to do this.
Wow. Project much? You're underemployed, in a falling down house with a mentally ill son in a co dependent relationship, with friends abandoning you and you have the nerve to strike out at Chicken Lady this way? Just wow.
With all you have going wrong in your own life, one might think you'd have some empathy for others that are struggling. But you just choose to be mean and cruel.
The house is not falling down. The ceiling was replaced. I did go for counseling and am not in a codependent relationship. One friend (not friends plural - am planning get-togethers with others) in difficult circumstances has distanced herself - though I showed much empathy towards her and her struggles.
I am employed full time in a benefitted job.
Try again. You didn't do too well with these accusations.
Don’t forget she doesn’t have an ATM card because she’s afraid she’s going to get to get robbed and kidnapped when using the ATM.
Chicken lady
8-27-21, 8:15am
It was not my intention to make or encourage attacks on Yppej.
I was simply presenting the impressions I have that have led to the decision I have made.
my preference would be that people neither attack nor argue fruitlessly with Yppej.
yppej, I am glad to hear that your life is better than your posts have led some of us to believe. Should you care, I assure you that mine is much better than the impression you seem to have.
It was not my intention to make or encourage attacks on Yppej.
I was simply presenting the impressions I have that have led to the decision I have made.
my preference would be that people neither attack nor argue fruitlessly with Yppej.
yppej, I am glad to hear that your life is better than your posts have led some of us to believe. Should you care, I assure you that mine is much better than the impression you seem to have.
Still reading my posts I see.
happystuff
8-27-21, 8:54am
nobody has tried to explain to me why they are still engaging. I really wanted to know. Do you just enjoy the fight?
Based purely on my interpretation of what I have read throughout the forum, there have been some folks who have stated that, yes, they enjoy getting a rise out of folks (i.e. enjoy the fight). Others, bless them, seem to be expressing true concern and empathy, even after being personally "attacked".
For what it is worth, I am like you in that I read pretty much all the posts in a thread I am interested in, but in my opinion, that doesn't mean "engaging"; rather, directly responding to someone is, in my opinion, engaging with that individual.
Chicken lady
8-27-21, 9:14am
I meant engaging in the argument.
Yppej, I read all the posts in a thread if I read the thread. My new rule for myself is to only respond if I think there is a point. You motivated me to make that rule and I appreciate it.
there are threads that I stop reading because there is too much conflict, or because they have become strongly centered around you and I don’t feel I can offer you anything and I feel rude ignoring you, or that I don’t read because you started them. (Except sometimes I get lured in to peek at Bae)
I think this thread may have reached the point where it has become one of the time wasters in my life and will probably stop reading it soon.
iris lilies
8-27-21, 9:33am
Or she could stop fantasizing about thwarting the safety provided by masks. It’s creepy and not really defensible. I hope for your sake she wasn’t at the Missouri state fair.
Fortunately, I came through that spreader event with no Covid infection. It would’ve shown up by now. And since it was rural Missouri in a state where 44% of the inhabitants are vaccinated, I’m pretty sure it was something like 75% unvaccinated in that Pork Palace tent (what was I thinking!?? !)
I’d rather stand next to Jeppys than to them.
rosarugosa
8-27-21, 9:44am
It was not my intention to make or encourage attacks on Yppej.
I was simply presenting the impressions I have that have led to the decision I have made.
my preference would be that people neither attack nor argue fruitlessly with Yppej.
yppej, I am glad to hear that your life is better than your posts have led some of us to believe. Should you care, I assure you that mine is much better than the impression you seem to have.
Nicely said, CL.
The courthouse here went to remote hearings whenever possible again on August 16, with mandatory masks for anyone regardless of vaccination status if they go in the actual courthouse, with no more than 5 people in a space, I think it is.
So my Mom's upcoming trial is now back to Google Meets. I don't think the judge could deal with masks on everyone's face as they testify, Google Meets was hard enough to understand what was going on.
I kind of feel for the judge, who wanted everyone in the courtroom so he could judge for himself. None of the participants were very savvy with Google Meets, and my mom did not understand at all what was going on.
Another reason he wanted her there, but that's not going to happen. Big impact on judicial process, not something I ever thought of.
I have jury duty in October. I cannot imagine wearing a mask all day, though at least the courthouse is a new building that should have a properly functioning HVAC system. Hopefully it is cancelled. If not I will ask the judge if I can be excused because the mask is a burden to me and will distract me from focusing on the case.
iris lilies
8-27-21, 11:11am
Jp1,
…..trolls are like stray cats. If you feed them, they stick around….
…nobody has tried to explain to me why they are still engaging. I really wanted to know. Do you just enjoy the fight?
I’m not JP, but I actually respect JP and I like him. That is not true for all posters on this forum. But I don’t think his finest hours are spent engaging with Jeppy’s trolling posts.
Is this one of those “third person” posts I shouldn't make? I don’t quite understand that concept because if I talk openly about JP, he knows I’m talking about him. He can come here and engage about that. Or not. It’s not like I’m oblique about the subject of my post.
flowerseverywhere
8-27-21, 11:44am
Florida update: in my area our ICU occupancy is 96%
state overall at 93%
Note: Available beds may not really be available if they cannot be staffed.
People are telling reporters it is taking and hour for a response to a 911 call. Not sure what it is in my immediate area. Some morgues are reporting they are at capacity.
news article about situation in Orlando. 20% of new cases in kids 5-14 year olds.
https://www.wesh.com/article/orange-county-mayor-to-provide-covid-19-update-thursday-afternoon/37407217
Florida Supreme Court to rule soon if Governor deathsentence can dictate local school districts are not allowed to have mask mandates. Some cruise lines already won the battle requiring vaccines and masks in certain areas, which he forbade.
i could care less about snarky comments about anything I post. I believe the doctors and scientists who are actually involved researching real data and treating actual coronavirus patients are doing their best to advise on this moving target of a mutating virus.
I do not believe people who want to get re-elected or make money.
Maybe it is helping some people cope by arguing things. I don’t know.
Florida update: in my area our ICU occupancy is 96%
state overall at 93%
Note: Available beds may not really be available if they cannot be staffed.
People are telling reporters it is taking and hour for a response to a 911 call. Not sure what it is in my immediate area. Some morgues are reporting they are at capacity.
news article about situation in Orlando. 20% of new cases in kids 5-14 year olds.
https://www.wesh.com/article/orange-county-mayor-to-provide-covid-19-update-thursday-afternoon/37407217
.
I just checked our area in Maine (well, all of Central Maine, actually, but includes our county) and we are at 64.9%.
But we have very little medical reserve here--it is taking average of 3 months to get a doctor's appointment for people moving to the area. So lots of people without doctors.
Oregon's struggling, too--and their government has been responsible all along. My friend got a notice that five counties' hospitals--including hers--were full, due to COVID: "...facilities across Oregon are running so full that, at times, patients have been sent to other hospitals in California, Idaho and Washington to receive the care they need."
Last I looked a few days ago, IL’s positivity rate was about 5.1%. Not sure on hospital bed numbers, but downstate is really tight on available beds. Fewer vaxxed people in those areas.
frugal-one
8-27-21, 1:52pm
Jp1,
it’s because trolls are like stray cats. If you feed them, they stick around.
or it could be that when you are lonely and feeling powerless and failing at in person human relationships, you cling to any source of attention and sense of control you can find. I don’t know. I don’t believe I can have a rational conversation with Yppej, so I’m not asking her. At this point I’m just going off the posts I’ve read. - which gives you only the vision of the person they present filtered through your unmoderated viewpoint. And I’m pretty sure my brain doesn’t work neurotypically, so there’s that.
nobody has tried to explain to me why they are still engaging. I really wanted to know. Do you just enjoy the fight?
Definitely got the troll pegged.
Oregon's struggling, too--and their government has been responsible all along. My friend got a notice that five counties' hospitals--including hers--were full, due to COVID: "...facilities across Oregon are running so full that, at times, patients have been sent to other hospitals in California, Idaho and Washington to receive the care they need."
Oregon was anti-vax before covid:
https://centerforhealthjournalism.org/2020/07/17/oregon-fertile-soil-movement-questioning-vaccine-safety
Thank you for raising the court issue Tybee. I found a web page where I could send a message expressing a covid concern to the court system and I asked them about the mask mandate for my upcoming jury service.
iris lilies
8-27-21, 7:12pm
Here we have a mini Florida situation:
My garden club group is holding a flower show indoors at the home bulders’ show.
We just learned the Home Builders’s Association is not requiring masking at this event. But …they will not allow US to require masking in our area, a distinct area with doors.
I am aghast at this news. Two mainstays of our group have pulled out. I think this flower show is toast.
Here we have a mini Florida situation:
My garden club group is holding a flower show indoors at the home bulders’ show.
We just learned the Home Builders’s Association is not requiring masking at this event. But …they will not allow US to require masking in our area, a distinct area with doors.
I am aghast at this news. Two mainstays of our group have pulled out. I think this flower show is toast.
Can you do it outdoors in their parking lot, using those tents with just roofs and no sides if it rains?
Iris Lilies, I think Florida is close to running out of hospital capacity if not already reached the limit. Wise to do all you can and I personally would not attend any group event with strangers moving around in groups at exhibits. No social distancing and little air circulation. Perfect for spreading any virus.https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/08/27/covid-in-florida-coronavirus-patient-surge-strains-hospitals/
iris lilies
8-27-21, 9:18pm
Can you do it outdoors in their parking lot, using those tents with just roofs and no sides if it rains?
No.We’re not going to rent tents and pay for that. Beside any wind blowing through Knocks all the exhibits over. It’s just not practical.
Our design group is meeting at a city park shelter house next week, but we already all know that we need to have low heavy designs with no backdrops because the backdrops will just blow over in the slightest wind.
For the flower show I was willing to haul properties into the show room, quickly set them up, throw up my two designs, and leave. I was not willing to stand around and fuss with stuff like the ladies like to do when we’re setting up a show. I was also not at all keen at working a “hostess “stint of 2 to 3 hours and I was debating whether I was going to do that, But the no mask caper makes that an immediate “ no way!”
flowerseverywhere
8-27-21, 9:34pm
Iris Lilies, I think Florida is close to running out of hospital capacity if not already reached the limit. Wise to do all you can and I personally would not attend any group event with strangers moving around in groups at exhibits. No social distancing and little air circulation. Perfect for spreading any virus.https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/08/27/covid-in-florida-coronavirus-patient-surge-strains-hospitals/
my area is at 99% ICU capacity. Florida state average is 93%.
17,000+ Covid patients in hospitals.
obviously people will still have heart attacks, strokes, falls and auto accidents. I imagine people will die simply due to not being able to get to everyone in time. How can they? We are staying away from everyone again however not socially distanced crowds are the norm here. Lots of tourists are coming still.
also the Florida Supreme Court said DeSantas cannot forbid school districts to issue mask mandates as he has. DeSantis is vowing to fight. In the meantime close to 1,000 people are dying a day.
it boggles my mind that a Governor would go against the majority of the parents who want mask mandates. Even Rubio and Scott wouldn’t support the Governor.
I have wondered if I bought a piece of lace and tied it over my nose and mouth would it qualify as a face covering and meet legal requirements.
The person who cleans the stalls where my horse is being trained at, hurt themselves ( non horse related ) My trainer asked if I could step in today and tomorrow . I cleaned and re-bedded ( replaced the sawdust shavings) 18 stalls . And took a lesson. I am 60 years old. Fun Fact: The average horse's "out put" of solid waste is 8 tons a year ( not including bedding ) Go Me.
Follow Me for more Fun Facts regarding equines
BIL and wife just flew to Hawaii for a vacation even though the governor has asked tourists to stop coming temporarily due to surges of infection. SIL had just left for a huge family wedding. It seems that many just don't want to accept restrictions again. DH is not vaccinated still; I worry for his health continually. And another thing no one talks about much - the hospital bill if you end up there for Covid.
No ICU beds left in my state.
Meanwhile, our state DOH has to spend PR time/dollars to tell people not to drink cattle dewormer to protect themselves from COVID.
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/Articles/ID/2908/Ivermectin-should-not-be-used-to-prevent-or-treat-COVID-19
Chicken lady
8-27-21, 9:48pm
We inject that stuff in goats.
too bad it’s unethical to lie to antivaxers…
”free ivermectin shots! Highly effective against covid” wink wink.
flowerseverywhere
8-27-21, 9:49pm
No ICU beds left in my state.
Meanwhile, our state DOH has to spend PR time/dollars to tell people not to drink cattle dewormer to protect themselves from COVID.
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/Articles/ID/2908/Ivermectin-should-not-be-used-to-prevent-or-treat-COVID-19
Darwinism at it’s finest. My problem is not that I care about these people, but the stress and danger to the medical people and the innocent children who are getting infected.
We inject that stuff in goats.
too bad it’s unethical to lie to antivaxers…
”free ivermectin shots! Highly effective against covid” wink wink.
I saw a news story today indicating the Ivermectin craze is a for-profit quack medicine project.
Chicken lady
8-27-21, 9:58pm
In case I was unclear - I want to fill the syringes with covid vaccine and lie.
The ivermectin seems to work pretty well on goat parasites. And the milk withdrawal time is short. So it has it’s up side.
Fortunately, I came through that spreader event with no Covid infection. It would’ve shown up by now. And since it was rural Missouri in a state where 44% of the inhabitants are vaccinated, I’m pretty sure it was something like 75% unvaccinated in that Pork Palace tent (what was I thinking!?? !)
I’d rather stand next to Jeppys than to them.
I’m truly glad to hear this. Not all of us are lucky enough to live where 88% of people are fully. vaxxed.
And to chicken lady, I get it. I’m not expecting to change anyone’s opinions. Part of the reason I argue is the off chance that I will but the other part of the reason is that yppej enjoys it. She has not much joy in her life right now so we can at least feed off each other and get our digs in. I get to make my point, she gets to make hers. So far no one has changed their opinion but at least we’re both passionate about the things we care about. And that alone matters to me. If I ever stop caring then I should probably check myself into a mental hospital ASAP. Because it will mean that something is seriously wrong with me.
iris lilies
8-28-21, 12:29am
I’m truly glad to hear this. Not all of us are lucky enough to live where 88% of people are fully. vaxxed.
Not exactly dude. California is at 55% so that’s not super Duper better than Missouri at 44%.
Your number of 88% might be counting only eligible people, meaning not those under 12 years of age. This chart below presumably compares apples to apples and is counting the same things across states
https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/state/california
flowerseverywhere
8-28-21, 5:58am
Now a strong hurricane is headed straight for New Orleans, in a state where 41% of the total population is fully vaccinated. It will hit tomorrow morning the 16th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Hospitals are close to full from Texas to Florida. The inevitable shelters will be like Petri dishes. The only state with more poverty is Mississippi. Officials have said there isn’t time to evacuate everybody.
between Afghanistan and other conflicts around the world, hurricanes, Covid, wildfires, and drought, I am starting to wonder if it is the end of times.
I don’t worry the whole state. I worry the part of the state I live in. Three Bay Area counties are the highest vaxxed out of all 58 counties. The people who live in Lassen County, the lowest vaccinated in the state at 21%, are no more likely to come to this part of the state than the people of Greene County Missouri are.
https://coronavirus.marinhhs.org/vaccine/data#vaccineresidents
happystuff
8-28-21, 8:16am
Not posting much in this thread anymore, but still reading. These hospital bed numbers, etc are all so sad.
gimmethesimplelife
8-28-21, 11:47am
In Arizona things may get interesting politically and covid-wise. Our wacky GOP governor, Doug Ducey, can not run again due to term limits so there is a free for all of potential candidates hoping to take his place. One that I believe has a good chance is a female far right conservative named Kari Lake. Ms. Lake was a news anchor, quite popular, on Fox News Channel 10 in Phoenix. For 22 years she held this position with co-anchor John Hook. Towards the end of her time at Fox News - she quit and was not fired - she said she had issues with disinformation being spread around about covid by liberals.
Even as a gay man I can tell you that Ms. Lake is a truly beautiful woman - at least on the surface. She is highly photogenic and knows how to work the camera to her advantage. She is far, far, far right and is extremely direct. It's going to be interesting as she has far right views on Covid and Arizona flipped blue (I still am amazed on that one as a long term Arizonan) last election. Moneyed folks from liberal areas are rapidly moving into Arizona and are changing the political landscape of Arizona big time. It's going to be interesting to see who wins here.
I still think Ms. Lake has a good chance of winning regardless - but she needs to tone down her far rightedness. Her views on covid are not going to help her, either. I'm sure she has handlers that will tell her this. As always, never a dull moment in Arizona politically. Rob
Teacher Terry
8-28-21, 1:49pm
Rob, Nevada was red when I got here but us transplants flipped it blue:)).
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