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Unseen Epidemic Pandemic seems to be available in installments on YouTube.
Just got this off a friend's FB page. It's about the crops that are apparently going to rot in the field if the people that pick them aren't let into the country.
https://thegarrisoncenter.org/archives/15035?fbclid=IwAR3DjRVBweLX49dAOQEXPGp1EUREMEdEs52 Mu-XfU95IziltHldF2jvJEhk
I heard a story on NPR - the food supply chain has broken down. The big buyers aren't buying (restaurants, schools, etc.) so no one is shipping and crops and dairy is wasted.
Just got this off a friend's FB page. It's about the crops that are apparently going to rot in the field if the people that pick them aren't let into the country.
https://thegarrisoncenter.org/archives/15035?fbclid=IwAR3DjRVBweLX49dAOQEXPGp1EUREMEdEs52 Mu-XfU95IziltHldF2jvJEhk
There is temporary housing for farmworkers. Unemployed Americans could do the work, even if they don"t live in the area, but with a stimulus bill that in some cases pays them more in unemployment benefits than they made when working, and certainly more than migrant workers do, why should they?
We are becoming like Dubai - where certain jobs are beneath the citizenry, and a group of second class people from other countries with few legal rights does the hard and dirty work, and here at least on small farms are not guaranteed even the minimum wage. If we treated farmworkers better there would not be a labor crisis. But the author of that libertarian editorial won't draw those conclusions.
ApatheticNoMore
4-14-20, 6:41pm
Guest worker programs for farming have existing decades upon decades though. Ideally such workers would be treated well. Sometimes I think they are paid well. But there is probably a limit if you want U.S. agriculture to compete with cheap imported Mexican produce. Is it really just a question of on what side of the border you want the food grown? Well then there is a national interest in not exporting all food production.
Idaho and Utah are dumping 100s of 1000s of pounds of milk (a gallon is 8#). There's not enough consumable milk on the shelves therefore it is still rationed to one container per purchase. Processing plants are not accepting all their contract production.
It is a travesty. (dairy farm raised girl right here). Yup. It's dirty hard work and many Americans don't want to do it. My family hired Hispanics for decades. They are amazing workers!
It's a mess.
I wish I could find the Twitter thread in which a farmer was discussing the issue of growing food in the U.S. He hired migrant labor to tend the fields and harvest because it's the only way he could produce profitably. The migrants work for $12-15 an hour and free housing -- and are happy for it because they could work just as hard in their home countries for far less money. The farmer explained that, in three years of working at his farm, a migrant worker can send enough money back home to build a house for his family, free and clear. Three years of that kind of wage does not provide enough to build a house, free and clear, in the U.S. Pay an American enough to do that and the farmer has priced his/her product so high that buyers will get their produce from outside the U.S., where it can be grown and harvested much cheaper.
American farmers are in competition with farmers outside the U.S. It's just a fact of the economy. This guy would be fine with hiring Americans. But at the wages he can pay and stay in business, they don't apply for the jobs. The farmer also touched on the matters of skill and commitment to the work. He mentioned Jamaican apple pickers that people he knew hired every year at harvest time. There's a narrow window when the produce is ready and it has to be out of the fields before it rots. I found this article (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/nyregion/the-jamaican-apple-pickers-of-upstate-new-york.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur) (New York Times; possible paywall), which discusses the same group of workers and makes many of the same points the farmer did.
Here is a Twitter thread (https://twitter.com/FreshAirFarmer/status/1247876205564526593) from a Canadian farmer on why some farmers have been dumping milk. Interesting to get that other perspective, especially if you've had trouble buying milk at your local grocery.
And, finally, here's an NPR report (https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2020/04/03/826006362/food-shortages-nope-too-much-food-in-the-wrong-places?utm_campaign=npr&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_term=nprnews) that covers the logistics of growing for food service customers and growing for retail grocery stores. I mentioned some of these points an another thread here. It's all more complicated than one would think because we've optimized the #&$^ out of supply chains.
Logistics is critical. The volunteer work I did at Second Harvest crossed this bridge. The food bank has agreements with local grocery chains to have one (or more) employees collect meat at its sell-by date and to box it and palletize it for the food bank. The chains did it out of goodwill and warm fuzzies, and there likely was some sort of writeoff they could get for the donation. But they still had to stand the cost of employees working on non-chain business for a few hours each week.
The food bank dispatched refrigerated trucks to each store to collect the goods. The boxes then were brought out to us for sorting for quality and type (open packages of meat and ice cream and thawed packages of peas were tossed; seafood went to the "market" within the facility so clients could pick it out because it's so perishable and quality would suffer a lot as it was held; and then the proteins were sorted into beef, poultry, pork, and "misc" (cold cuts, sauced BBQ ribs, etc.).
We moved 8,000-10,000 pounds of food during each two-hour session. I don't know if it would have made economic sense to redistribute this high-quality protein without so many workers in the chain essentially working for "free". Most folks have no idea how much food is tossed in this country and how relatively difficult it is to move it around to where it is needed.
Edit: changed pounds of food moved. I moved 4-5,000 pounds. There was a guy on the other end of the line doing the same.
You're right Steve, it is a MESS! My brother produced 90,000 # of milk daily. He had a long-term contract with a purchaser. He bought futures for feed.
I'm so glad he was able to finally sell the operation back in September. He is 66yo and didn't need to go through yet another financial disaster. He's been through 3 since 1972. The guy who bought it is BIG! It is his 4th farm. He'll survive this.
There is really no such thing as a small family dairy business anymore. Those days are gone.
$12 to $15 an hour is not bad pay, although not good pay, especially in rural areas where the cost of living is less. People are fighting for $15 across the country. Yet the author of Tradd's article sees no alternative to mass starvation than imported labor. Why can't we have a stimulus bill to subsidize farm wages as needed and get the crops planted and harvested by Americans? We are subsidizing the health care industry with its high profits and executive compensation in this crisis. We could even appeal to people's public spirit like we did in drawing medical personnel out of retirement. In previous crises we called all hands on deck. Rosie didn't know how to rivet but she learned. Now our idea of public service is lock yourself in your house.
Now I am a vegetarian, but if pork is important disinfect the plant in South Dakota and bring in replacement staff. My company has done this with 4 locations so far, back up and running in a day. We are an essential business so we do it, but food which is more essential doesn't?
SteveinMN
4-15-20, 11:37am
if pork is important disinfect the plant in South Dakota and bring in replacement staff.
imo the Smithfield CEO is just making a lot of noise. Even if his entire plant were abducted by aliens and lifted off the face of the earth, it would be a loss of only 4-5% of the nation's pork processing capacity. While I do believe there will be some supply-chain disruptions as farmers, truckers, and processing-plant employees fall to the coronavirus, and while I think more than 5% of capacity is likely to be out of commission at any one time in the next few months, I do not believe we're looking at widespread out-of-stocks at supermarkets across America. Well, there could be out-of-stocks brought on by panic buying, but most people looking at an empty pork case either will buy chicken or beef -- or another processing company will take up the slack.
I think this guy is scared for his profits. The idea of a public health threat presented by possible contamination in the food supply (not coronavirus but anything, really, including rampant E. coli and salmonella) has long been pushed back by threats that it would make food more expensive. It probably would, but only because it puts the expenses where they belong in production -- and who wants an unsafe food supply anyway?
If workers have to do their jobs spaced further apart, if employers have to provide adequate health insurance, if people have to be paid more because meat production is a difficult, dangerous job, that's likely a margin reduction for the processing company. Just as with farmers and produce processors, care needs to be taken that American meat is not priced out of this market. But American taxpayers already subsidize so much of the food production process. American food prices are among the lowest in the developed world. Fast, cheap, good -- which two do we want?
Teacher Terry
4-15-20, 12:02pm
Americans don’t want to work on a farm which involves long hours of hard physical labor. I know quite a few retired from the medical field that aren’t going back to work. They said their skills are too rusty plus they are worried about themselves and their spouses getting infected.
ApatheticNoMore
4-15-20, 12:19pm
I suspect it also involves a great deal of chemical exposure being it's industrial agriculture and involves massive pesticide spraying etc..
Even with "essential" businesses, employees that CAN work from home should be working from home. In many cases they may not be, but that is because the owners of such businesses care very little for the well being of their employees, and as long as they can fall on the gray or white side of the law little else matters to them. I think I work kind of in a grey area but with a company that is determined almost everyone (well everyone except those who keep the computer network and remote computers that allow us to do so running) should work from home.
invisibleflash
4-16-20, 6:33pm
Americans don’t want to work on a farm which involves long hours of hard physical labor. I know quite a few retired from the medical field that aren’t going back to work. They said their skills are too rusty plus they are worried about themselves and their spouses getting infected.
Yes, this is true. Was not always like that. Farm labor is tough work.
Here is how it was in the dustbowl...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAVQaYdF6nQ
invisibleflash
4-16-20, 6:36pm
You're right Steve, it is a MESS! My brother produced 90,000 # of milk daily. He had a long-term contract with a purchaser. He bought futures for feed.
I'm so glad he was able to finally sell the operation back in September. He is 66yo and didn't need to go through yet another financial disaster. He's been through 3 since 1972. The guy who bought it is BIG! It is his 4th farm. He'll survive this.
There is really no such thing as a small family dairy business anymore. Those days are gone.
Lotsa respect for the dairy farmers. Milk twice a day, 365 days a year...no rest!
Too bad all that trashed milk could not be evaporated into powdered milk. Or into cheese. Cheese was invented as a way to preserve excess milk.
Lotsa respect for the dairy farmers. Milk twice a day, 365 days a year...no rest!
Too bad all that trashed milk could not be evaporated into powdered milk. Or into cheese. Cheese was invented as a way to preserve excess milk.
It's a matter of contracts. Milk processors didn't renew some contracts (I do not know why). They have capacity.
Yes, it's hard work that never ends. In high school, I was the relief milker in the summer for vacation and the 1d/week off.:|( I'll take 20 hours standing in the operating room over dairy life!
Sonora Shepherd
4-19-20, 12:06pm
The Oregonian this morning says that Oregon is testing 1,500 people a day. They could test more but the parameters are too restrictive. I don't get it. This fits what people in our hospital are saying. We just aren't testing enough people.
The Oregonian this morning says that Oregon is testing 1,500 people a day. They could test more but the parameters are too restrictive. I don't get it. This fits what people in our hospital are saying. We just aren't testing enough people.
Andrew Cuomo explained it pretty well the other day. Seems there are lots of different manufacturers with proprietary reagents, etc. and none of them work together and no one's in charge, of course, and you can't get the supplies and reagents you need, etc. etc. Ah. the glories of capitalism. If we had a functioning federal government, they could have taken charge (Defense Production Act, anyone?) a couple of months ago.
The Oregonian this morning says that Oregon is testing 1,500 people a day. They could test more but the parameters are too restrictive. I don't get it. This fits what people in our hospital are saying. We just aren't testing enough people.
I have family in PDX. Available testing materials are gone by 0815! Then they all wait for the next shipment. Don't listen to he who says there is adequate testing. It is blatantly untrue!
ApatheticNoMore
4-19-20, 12:36pm
I have family in PDX. Available testing materials are gone by 0815! Then they all wait for the next shipment. Don't listen to he who says there is adequate testing. It is blatantly untrue!
not many saying that.
Testing either flat or declining from beginning of April I hear. That might be why the curve is flattening, test have flattened out. Now I could go a bit conspiratorial and say they don't WANT comprehensive testing as they want to keep the numbers artificially low. But could just be shortages. It's getting hard to keep attributing what looks like malice to incompetence but ...
There is more testing than there was, so if you want a test I'd try to get it since some testing centers have opened locally here for instance (I would try to get one with any sickness symptoms). And if you are high risk you are eligible for priority testing. But no comprehensive testing of the population is not going on at this point.
Add in reports of inordinate amounts of false negatives...
Apparently, there has never been a vaccine for a corona virus. Also, if the common cold is any indicator, natural immunities don't develop. Or am I way off here?
If we had a functioning federal government, they could have taken charge (Defense Production Act, anyone?) a couple of months ago.
To borrow bae's phrase from another thread, don't use reason and logic! :~) I don't believe any previous administration would have gotten it 100% right, but you had to know this one would foul it up.
if the common cold is any indicator, natural immunities don't develop
If I remember my biology correctly, the issue is that the common cold mutates very quickly, so developing antibodies for one strain can be of little help for the next one. The same with the "common" flu -- there are enough strains of it that the flu shot recommended annually is an educated guess at which strains will be most prevalent in a given flu season. What I've read so far about this coronavirus, though, is that it seems to be a slow mover, which could help in developing a vaccine.
We've been trying to replace migrant farm workers since at least the 60's. It's never going to happen.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/when-the-u-s-government-tried-to-replace-migrant-farmworkers-with-high-schoolers
TLDR version: The government set up a program called the A-TEAM and recruited 18,000 high school students to replace migrant farm workers one summer. As an editorial summed it up at the time:
But the national press was immediately skeptical. "Dealing with crops which grow close to the ground requires a good deal stronger motive" than money or the prospects of a good workout, argued a Detroit Free Press editorial. "Like, for instance, gnawing hunger."
If we want Americans to do those jobs we'd have to treat them like Americans, not like migrants who can't speak up when they are being treated atrociously.
I don't believe any previous administration would have gotten it 100% right, but you had to know this one would foul it up.
I'd say that the Obama administration got Ebola almost 100% perfect. But people don't talk about it precisely for that reason.
I'd say that the Obama administration got Ebola almost 100% perfect. But people don't talk about it precisely for that reason.
I'll grant that what I've read of their handling of the situation was pretty well textbook, yes. Too bad that's another Obama achievement that someone felt he had to go out and sideswipe.
ApatheticNoMore
4-19-20, 2:33pm
We've been trying to replace migrant farm workers since at least the 60's. It's never going to happen.
yes if one wants to complain about immigration it seems the wrong focus. Take jobs Americans have actually done not that long ago like construction. Take H1B work which is often desirable jobs. But agriculture, yea, I don't think it's a strong case.
The longer this goes on the less I trust the government. Today my state had a "record" number of deaths, but they are going back in time and reclassifying deaths. The number of deaths in the past 24 hours is NOT up. The number of cases also keeps going up because they don't ever subtract out recovered patients. The media launch each newscast with alarming numbers, but the figures are "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
The number of cases also keeps going up because they don't ever subtract out recovered patients.
Cases are cases. Just because someone recovered doesn't mean they didn't get the virus and doesn't mean they emerged unscathed from having it.
The longer this goes on the less I trust the government. Today my state had a "record" number of deaths, but they are going back in time and reclassifying deaths. The number of deaths in the past 24 hours is NOT up. The number of cases also keeps going up because they don't ever subtract out recovered patients. The media launch each newscast with alarming numbers, but the figures are "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
A case recovered is still a confirmed case. They should NOT be subtracted.
ApatheticNoMore
4-30-20, 7:40pm
It's a question of knowing what data you are looking at. Current cases seems hard to find locally. Nationally it's available but who knows how accurate : https://www.axios.com/ (the dashboard)
But I wonder if at this point there is any way to even know recovered versus current cases? I mean suppose someone goes to a drive by corona test, however longer later they found out they have corona virus, the labs have this info that they tested positive, but does anyone actually follow up on recovery?
If a person goes to the hospital and is released that's recovery maybe, but what about those who don't go to the hospital? I guess you can phase out and assume recovery is cases 6 weeks ago minus deaths or something. Only most corona virus cases aren't even that old at this point! I mean we aren't really up to doing contract tracing at this point, so what are the chances noone is really tracking this?
I'd say that the Obama administration got Ebola almost 100% perfect. But people don't talk about it precisely for that reason.
Yes, it was handled very well. Science driven with docs driving the bus. President Obama was aware of his knowledge deficits and deferred to his experts.
Teacher Terry
4-30-20, 9:51pm
I doubt they are over reporting cases. If anything just the opposite.
iris lilies
4-30-20, 9:54pm
I doubt they are over reporting cases. If anything just the opposite.
Do you think there’s any evidence They are over reporting deaths according to coronavirus?
Do you think there’s any evidence They are over reporting deaths according to coronavirus?
I believe it is seriously under reported. If one dies and does not have a test result, it's not COVID. And plenty are dying without being tested. I'm hearing a LOT of this on a RN COVID group I participate on.
We have a serious lack of testing in this country! I don't care what the orange one says-he is quite wrong!
Teacher Terry
4-30-20, 10:40pm
IL, no of course not. I was responding to Y and you misunderstood. I agree with G.
Over time we’ll be able to look at how many deaths were expected from the normal course of people dying versus how many actually died. As we did with Puerto Rico after the hurricane. I suppose some people will try to dispute that number but whatever. If a lot of people’s loved ones are part of the death count from covid no amount of spin will be successful.
I responded to a medical call yesterday that resulted in a death.
Patient had delayed a now-clearly-essential medical appointment because of schedule/travel difficulties due to covid-19.
Having some familiarity with his medical history, I suspect he'd have had 15+ years of good quality life ahead of him without becoming "bycatch" to the pandemic.
I responded to a medical call yesterday that resulted in a death.
Patient had delayed a now-clearly-essential medical appointment because of schedule/travel difficulties due to covid-19.
Having some familiarity with his medical history, I suspect he'd have had 15+ years of good quality life ahead of him without becoming "bycatch" to the pandemic.
I am so sorry Bae. It is so hard losing people right now!:(
I am so sorry Bae. It is so hard losing people right now!:(
Thanks - he was a good fellow, and lived close enough to me that I jogged over to respond to the page :-(
That is so hard to see happen.
I believe it is seriously under reported. If one dies and does not have a test result, it's not COVID. And plenty are dying without being tested. I'm hearing a LOT of this on a RN COVID group I participate on.
We have a serious lack of testing in this country! I don't care what the orange one says-he is quite wrong!
I have a coworker whose father died of natural causes and days later with no testing they made the medical examiner change the cause of death. So in my area it is the opposite of what you say. NYC also went back and reclassified deaths weeks later. They did not exhume all the bodies to test them, they just changed the way they counted.
A case recovered is still a confirmed case. They should NOT be subtracted.
OK. Got it. But the media could cut down on the alarmist headlines. Places where the curve is going down they still talk about a growing number of cases when the rate of infection is going down. Fortunately my governor is looking more at hospitalization rates. He has a background in healthcare.
Remember media is really now only for one thing: Ratings. In addition, there is little "competence" in what is being reported on but a lot of copy and paste. In our town, I get more from Facebook from the police and fire dept. I noted long ago that our media just copies what is provided. Loads of opinion, suppositions, and anecdotal stuff instead of reporting of facts. The more sensational the better. But how much good info can be given in the 1-2 minutes allocated to anything?
Just too pessimistic today.
Remember media is really now only for one thing: Ratings. In addition, there is little "competence" in what is being reported on but a lot of copy and paste. In our town, I get more from Facebook from the police and fire dept. I noted long ago that our media just copies what is provided. Loads of opinion, suppositions, and anecdotal stuff instead of reporting of facts. The more sensational the better. But how much good info can be given in the 1-2 minutes allocated to anything?
Just too pessimistic today.
How much is it the fault of the media and how much is the fault that the public doesn't want to read details. IMO, the public would rather be fed quick sound bytes to simple, black and white questions rather than the indepth truth of today's reality.
There has been a serious uptick in deaths compared to March and April of last year--even accounting for COVID deaths.. This has led many to believe the corona virus is responsible. At least that's the way I understand it.
Yes, and probably many are dying for the reasons that Bae's friend died, that they are cut off from regular medical care.
It's not a good time to get sick with anything, that's for sure.
ApatheticNoMore
5-1-20, 11:37am
How much is it the fault of the media and how much is the fault that the public doesn't want to read details. IMO, the public would rather be fed quick sound bytes to simple, black and white questions rather than the in depth truth of today's reality.
Doesn't want is a bit much, probably more like lacks the capacity (not necessarily the intelligence in all cases, maybe some, I don't know). To ask the kind of questions that just come second nature to me, of the type I was almost if not literally taught at my mama's knee, like is this a cumulative or current total etc.. That's just basic trying to understand stuff, though I've been paid to deal with my fair share of data which maybe helps, but it doesn't make one an epidemiologist, for that I just try to understand what the actual experts are telling us as best I can.
iris lilies
5-1-20, 11:43am
Our society closed down so that hospitals would not be overloaded, so we wouldnt have to ration respirators and medical care and etc.
Does anyone see the irony in our choosing not to award health cares services to some sick people while limiting health care services to other sick people, we did exactly that?
ApatheticNoMore
5-1-20, 11:48am
CA remains under a pretty severe lockdown as of now, but one limit that was lifted a week ago was on some medical procedures. Will it catch everyone who might need a medical procedure, maybe not. But it seems you can get a colonscopy if you really want one etc.
Are some people that could definitely get medical care still not going to, not because it's not available, but because they are SCARED of going to the hospital or the doctor with coronavirus around? Definitely!
They reduced or eliminated "elective" surgeries. Those having a heart attack, stroke, appendix issues were not considered elective and should always have made the same visits to the emergency rooms. There are a lot of people dying at home or coming in at the last moment when way too sick since they are afraid to come. Big uptick in problem cases and big decrease in nuisance emergency visits. Complex issues.
I am not be a doctor but listen to the medical news and try to glean what I can. Finding a lot out about how the virus is affecting multiple organs and even the brain and why. This is not just a respiratory disease like the flu or a cold.
Our society closed down so that hospitals would not be overloaded, so we wouldnt have to ration respirators and medical care and etc.
Does anyone see the irony in our choosing not to award health cares services to some sick people while limiting health care services to other sick people, we did exactly that?
God, yes.
Our society closed down so that hospitals would not be overloaded, so we wouldnt have to ration respirators and medical care and etc.
Does anyone see the irony in our choosing not to award health cares services to some sick people while limiting health care services to other sick people, we did exactly that?We've always known governments are not responsive enough and have no incentive to provide excellent healthcare when it is easier to ration it. I think the irony is that most won't acknowledge it.
Teacher Terry
5-1-20, 12:53pm
I cancelled everything routine but if I had something serious going on would definitely go in.
It's not just elective surgeries but things like cancer tumor operations that have been cancelled. The government is out of control. Every week in my state it's some new restriction although the disease is trending downwards some. I'm waiting for someone who can't or won't pay a civil fine for not wearing a mask to be jailed. That's the next step in the trajectory we're on.
ApatheticNoMore
5-1-20, 5:04pm
Maybe in that state. But maybe only there. Cancer tumors is precisely the type of things restrictions were lifted for here last week, and that was not a lift of the lockdown and the disease is not actually trending down in some parts of this state (at best it's level under lockdown), it was a lift of some medical procedures, colonscopies too, so if anyone is just dying to get a colonoscopy now and they are in CA, it is their lucky day.
https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/04/22/governor-newsom-announces-plan-to-resume-delayed-health-care-that-was-deferred-as-hospitals-prepared-for-covid-19-surge/
Don't you wish your governor was hot like ours I guess, because if Newsom can figure out how to handle medical treatment (which was contingent on the medical system of the state not being overwhelmed with covid and it's not at this point) it shouldn't be impossible.
Justin Trudeau is hot too.
dado potato
5-1-20, 6:34pm
If the hospitals in a given state are financially sound, then I would say the state governor might be hot.
Otherwise... a slow motion train wreck in hospitals.
Except for San Francisco and New York City, health systems across the USA are experiencing a decline in patient volume. Nationally it has been a drop of 56% from 3/1/20 to 4/15/20.
California overall -50%
Florida -47%
Texas -56%
Illinois -59%
Source: Crowe LLP
Wow, those numbers are really high, aren't they.
ApatheticNoMore
5-3-20, 12:50pm
Good article imo. It seems besides the testing being insufficient (and yes total cumulative cases are not current cases obviously although this thing is pretty new yet), that the tests are delayed enough (still, does anyone know?) that when we look at test results we are seeing results from the past not the present, like looking at distant long burned out suns in the sky (I mean ok they are not quite *that* delayed but).
I suspect there to be an uptick in cases here soon, not because we aren't still under lockdown, we are, but people are following it less and less I think. But even if there was would it even show up until a month from now or something. Hospitalization is one thing and they do look at it (well local govts anyway, not sure the Fed gov is looking at anything much), deaths sure but that's very much delayed obviously.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/pandemic-confusing-uncertainty/610819/
Serious question. How many tests are actually needed to establish a reasonable diagnosis? How many tests at great expense and use of resources are a CYA expenditure? Telemedicine is possibly going to clarify if a lot of hospital visits are necessary or not provided the medical people get their payment schemes worked out and electronic records are universal to all providers on a 'need to know basis'.
Cancer tumors is precisely the type of things restrictions were lifted for here last week, and that was not a lift of the lockdown and the disease is not actually trending down in some parts of this state (at best it's level under lockdown), it was a lift of some medical procedures, colonscopies too, so if anyone is just dying to get a colonoscopy now and they are in CA, it is their lucky day.
Thank Goodness! My mother sees the surgeon on Tuesday for what has been determined to be a cancerous lump on her breast. 88 yo. I'm scared for her for the cancer and for simply being in a medical environment with the virus!
Okay... getting personal here and posting more than I normally do on a public forum... But am I really the only one on the forums that this is hitting so close to home? I'm definitely glad! as I would hate anyone to go through having someone close, or even semi-close to them, die during these times. No viewings; only 10 people graveside or - most cases - cremation.
Three people I have hugged in real life have died in the span of 2 weeks - two from virus. (2 extended family) and now this with my mom. This is all hitting WAY too close to home for me!
Sorry... I'm rambling and I'm angry and I should probably take a hiatus before I put in writing something I will regret later.
Hugs to all. Stay safe and pray for EVERYONE!
Thank Goodness! My mother sees the surgeon on Tuesday for what has been determined to be a cancerous lump on her breast. 88 yo. I'm scared for her for the cancer and for simply being in a medical environment with the virus!
Okay... getting personal here and posting more than I normally do on a public forum... But am I really the only one on the forums that this is hitting so close to home? I'm definitely glad! as I would hate anyone to go through having someone close, or even semi-close to them, die during these times. No viewings; only 10 people graveside or - most cases - cremation.
Three people I have hugged in real life have died in the span of 2 weeks - two from virus. (2 extended family) and now this with my mom. This is all hitting WAY too close to home for me!
Sorry... I'm rambling and I'm angry and I should probably take a hiatus before I put in writing something I will regret later.
Hugs to all. Stay safe and pray for EVERYONE!
You are NOT the only one that is angry about the way this has played out, specifically with how it is affecting care for the elderly, both medical and the more human aspects of human contact. As in my 92 and 93 year old parents seem to have been put in a solitary confinement, in what is possibly a life time sentence. I am furious and frightened and sick about it.
I think it is terrible that your mother has had to wait to have a cancerous tumor removed. I hope all goes well this week, and I am glad she is finally able to see someone.
So you are not alone in your feelings, at all.
Teacher Terry
5-3-20, 4:53pm
Happy, I hope that the cancer was caught early. My mom got it when much older and was able to avoid chemo by letting them take the breast. By not having chemo she recovered much faster. I don’t personally know anyone that has died from the virus but it’s just a matter of time.
158 deaths were attributed to covid-29 yesterday in my state, down from a high of 252. Hospitalizations and ICU beds devoted to covid are also down. But our dictator governor is not satisfied with improvements no matter how substantial and keeps tightening the vise. Masks are mandated starting Wednesday. Ohio"s governor realized people did not want a mask mandate and rolled it back, but not in my state. Baker was the most admired governor in the country. I bet that changes. Two adjacent states are opening back up, but even the rural largely spared parts of our state are not. Local media are not covering the protests here. I have to find out from the national media.
I wore a mask this weekend 3 places. 1 I was fine as it was early in the day. The other 2 it was later, warmer, and the businesses were not running A/C. I felt nauseous (gas station removed it as soon as I got outside) and claustrophobic and faint (another store - I took it off as staff weren't wearing masks, but in 2 days I lose that right). If this mandate is interpreted that I have to wear a mask for 8 hours a day at work I will probably pass out.
I think Governor Baker is doing an excellent job managing the pandemic. If we are going to have a successful reopening any time in the foreseeable future, masks will be necessary in public, IMO. I don't think anyone likes them or finds them particularly comfortable and I agree that it will be even less pleasant as the weather gets hotter. I'm assuming those ventilators are even less pleasant, though. If our healthcare workers can wear masks for 12-hour shifts, I figure I can deal with wearing a mask at Market Basket.
From footage I've seen neither those living in nursing homes or prisoners are being made to wear masks all day, although they can't social distance and that is where most of the hotspots in the state are. I expect the prisoners would riot if forced to wear masks. In this regard they are more free than the rest of us.
dado potato
5-4-20, 7:41am
@ Yppej,
Kudos on wearing the mask despite the discomfort.
If you have the flexibility to wear a stretchy thin fabric (to comply with the restriction, not to be a barrier like an N 95 mask) you might consider a "Natural Life Womens Half Boho Bandeau". I have one in a black and cream floral pattern, bought from Amazon. I wear it to shop. I find that it is not overly hot, it is easy to breathe with it on, and my glasses do not fog when I have it on. I am a guy, and wearing "Women's" articles (at least, this article, anyway) is kind of fun! <wink>
Be Well
Thanks, Dado, will look this up! I haven't been able to make a mask yet that I can wear without getting dizzy.
It's an engineering problem, for sure.
From footage I've seen neither those living in nursing homes or prisoners are being made to wear masks all day, although they can't social distance and that is where most of the hotspots in the state are. I expect the prisoners would riot if forced to wear masks. In this regard they are more free than the rest of us.
And if a nursing home worker or prison guard brings covid into the facility there will be lot of death. Especially the nursing home. But, yay, they didn’t have to wear masks while they were dying.
Thanks, Dado, I will check it out as well. I had one but gave it away but with my hair getting longer, I need an alternative hair cover, so why not make it a mask?
From footage I've seen neither those living in nursing homes or prisoners are being made to wear masks all day, although they can't social distance
MiL's assisted living has restricted residents to their rooms. Their meals and even their mail are brought to them. There is no social distancing since there is no congregating. The entire staff wears masks.
iris lilies
5-4-20, 9:41am
You are NOT the only one that is angry about the way this has played out, specifically with how it is affecting care for the elderly, both medical and the more human aspects of human contact. As in my 92 and 93 year old parents seem to have been put in a solitary confinement, in what is possibly a life time sentence. I am furious and frightened and sick about it.
I think it is terrible that your mother has had to wait to have a cancerous tumor removed. I hope all goes well this week, and I am glad she is finally able to see someone.
So you are not alone in your feelings, at all.
How would you like to have seen your parents’ situation handled?
Thanks for reading my post, IL. I'm not in a place where I am ready to discuss this; the grief and fear is too strong right now. I'm sure you can understand how family members would feel under these circumstances.
ApatheticNoMore
5-4-20, 11:46am
I can't even tell if my feeling a tiny bit dizzy after the supermarket is due to mask or due to the fear and anxiety caused by going to the supermarket! :laff: I really suspect it's anxiety, fear will do that.
I am thankful governors on the West Coast are standing strong and slowly phasing activities in, personally. I'm fine wearing a mask and would stay far away from anyone not wearing one at this point.
Teacher Terry
5-4-20, 1:21pm
I have a n95 mask and can only wear it for short periods of time due to asthma and allergies. The homemade ones I can wear much longer. They aren’t mandatory here but I think they should be.
I'm wondering... are family members able to discharge patients from nursing homes and take them home to live with them and take care of them themselves? It seems this would alleviate a lot of the stress and fear that people are having over their inability to visit family members. And it might be a safer place for elderly people to be as it would expose them to much fewer germs. And for those who do succumb to the virus at least it would give the family a chance to say goodbye and be with their loved ones in their last moments.
When my father passed away, his whole family was able to be there with him. He was VERY lucky. I think if he was in one now I would try to get him out and get him home if possible.
I have a n95 mask and can only wear it for short periods of time due to asthma and allergies. The homemade ones I can wear much longer. They aren’t mandatory here but I think they should be.
A properly-fitted N95 mask is objectively harder to breath in, and without proper technique provides quite a bit less air exchange, causing CO2 buildup inside the mask and fatigue. I had to keep a co-worker from keeling over the other day during a strenuous task.
"The results showed a mean increment of 126 and 122% in inspiratory and expiratory flow resistances, respectively, with the use of N95 respirators. There was also an average reduction of 37% in air exchange volume with the use of N95 respirators."
https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/55/8/917/265317
I'm wondering... are family members able to discharge patients from nursing homes and take them home to live with them and take care of them themselves?
My understanding is that it's possible to do in Minnesota.
However, most folks are in nursing homes and assisted living facilities because they pretty much ought to be there. The homes of the children/siblings in which they would end up may not be adapted at all for a patient's particular disability, whether it's being unable to manage stairs, problems with balance, dementia, etc. Bringing them "home" also presumes somewhat knowledgeable people around to prepare (or even feed) meals, help toilet and bathe, help stand up or sit down, deal with dementia-related behaviors, etc.; not all of which would apply, of course).
Not to say it couldn't be done -- it's what people used to do before all these facilities existed. But for folks in assisted living or nursing homes, the home of a family member may be freer of germs but not necessarily freer of hazards.
Another steep drop in daily covid deaths, from 158 to 86, and all other indices are down too - fewer cases despite more testing, fewer hospitalizations, etc yet my governor continues to fearmonger. Our latest extension of draconian measures is set to expire 5/18 and now the line from the administration is not phased opening then, but just that a paper from a commission outlining phases for reopening with no timeline will be released. I bet if the number of deaths fell to zero the governor would still be saying, "Be afraid, be very afraid, the sky is falling." The idea of setting up a committee to study something is a classic stalling technique.
On a positive note a coworker gave me a cloth mask his wife made that I do okay with when I walk out into the public areas of the building. Wearing it is not mandatory but I do it because if we make customers wear masks I think we should also when around them. We have 5 managers and 2 managers in training and none of them wear masks even when around customers, but some of the rest of us are.
How would you like to have seen your parents’ situation handled?
Maybe like this?
https://apnews.com/fd1600f3d39055b9060cd7442568c739
dado potato
5-4-20, 7:25pm
R.I.P Maurice Dotson, CNA, who until his death worked for West Oaks Nursing and Rehabilitation Center, Austin TX.
You see people dying around the world. The main place they're dying is in nursing homes. Why would they not use more precautions? -- Felicia Dotson, sister of Maurice Dotson
www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mikesallah/nursing-assistant-devoted-to-elderly
Just heard the death rate is likely to double by August ..... 132,000 based on opening of states. We shall see.
The caretakers at that nursing home are heroes!!! I cannot even imagine staying quarantined that long at work.
ApatheticNoMore
5-4-20, 8:06pm
Just heard the death rate is likely to double by August ..... 132,000 based on opening of states
I would guess that as being hit by end of June :(
I wonder if more Americans will begin to care for elderly relatives at home like some cultures do. Since I don't have kids, it won't be an option for me, but I do wonder if people in general will be less likely to use the nursing homes and assisted living facilities after this. When possible, of course. I thought this was an interesting article on the subject: https://khn.org/news/should-you-bring-mom-home-from-assisted-living-during-the-pandemic/ The 101-yr old woman in the article is in amazing shape and hilarious!
I'm so glad that we have the technology to communicate with doctors via email, phone and video. This past week I was able to have "visits" with four doctors and it was easy, convenient and it didn't even cost me a cent! Prescriptions were mailed promptly except the two that were urgent and I was able to pick those up right away, without any problems. I was also able to get bloodwork done quickly and safely. Yay! for technology!
Another steep drop in daily covid deaths, from 158 to 86, and all other indices are down too - fewer cases despite more testing, fewer hospitalizations, etc yet my governor continues to fearmonger..
Considering that NONE of the states that are majorly opening up have met the stats for being ready to open I would personally suggest that you praise your lucky stars that you have a cautious governor. The next few months are going to be a nightmare bloodbath of needless death in some states. And with treasonous-trump praising the death cult protestors the pressure on the rest of the governors to do the wrong thing and open up too soon will undoubtedly prove insurmountable for some.
If we go into another decades long Great Depression jp1 we'll see if you still feel that way. My late neighbor told me how he supported 12 people because he was the only one in his extended family who could get a job. The Grapes of Wrath is fiction but the hunger it portrays was real.
My parents are 79 and 81 and I get the fear of losing someone, but folks like that are retired and can stay home. There's no need to shut down the economy for everyone else. The average age of a covid death is 81 in my state. It's not shut down OR open with a mask. It's shut down so you can't even get a haircut for months AND wear masks even when you're not going into businesses. The mayor of Boston actually scolded joggers and bicyclists for not wearing masks never mind that you could hyperventilate and pass out. It's beyond caution, it's taking away basic rights including freedom of religion. The Christian Bible says do not neglect to assemble yourselves together (Hebrews 10:25). I will be interested to see if a religious freedom case makes it to the Supreme Court.
Considering that NONE of the states that are majorly opening up have met the stats for being ready to open I would personally suggest that you praise your lucky stars that you have a cautious governor. The next few months are going to be a nightmare bloodbath of needless death in some states. And with treasonous-trump praising the death cult protestors the pressure on the rest of the governors to do the wrong thing and open up too soon will undoubtedly prove insurmountable for some.
Well said, JP, and this is certainly how I feel.
I suppose if one is ok with the idea that a majority of folks living in nursing homes and assisted living facilities will die, then sure, let’s go for herd immunity.
Personally I’ve always been of the opinion that there is no question for which the right answer is the one that results in 100’s of thousands of additional deaths. Other people may feel differently.
Well, thanks to Dado's excellent suggestion, I have ordered three new masks, using the hair bandeau and gaiter designs. I wasn't going to spend the money but as my husband reminded me, we're going to have to wear these all summer, so why not see if I can't find something that doesn't mess up my breathing. They're even pretty. Will report back on how they function, once they arrive. I have high hopes for the gaiter style because it is for motorcyclist use in the summer, to repel dust.
flowerseverywhere
5-5-20, 8:23am
Ha, who would have thought that Sarah Palin was right about death panels. What she was wrong about though was it’s not the ACA.
Whats a few hundred thousand deaths if the stock market is good?
The great Boomer Remover might help shore up Social Security too. Win win.
Considering that NONE of the states that are majorly opening up have met the stats for being ready to open I would personally suggest that you praise your lucky stars that you have a cautious governor. The next few months are going to be a nightmare bloodbath of needless death in some states. And with treasonous-trump praising the death cult protestors the pressure on the rest of the governors to do the wrong thing and open up too soon will undoubtedly prove insurmountable for some.
Hear hear!
Personally, I wouldn't risk death for a haircut, but that's just me.
If we go into another decades long Great Depression jp1 we'll see if you still feel that way. My late neighbor told me how he supported 12 people because he was the only one in his extended family who could get a job. The Grapes of Wrath is fiction but the hunger it portrays was real.
My parents are 79 and 81 and I get the fear of losing someone, but folks like that are retired and can stay home. There's no need to shut down the economy for everyone else. The average age of a covid death is 81 in my state. It's not shut down OR open with a mask. It's shut down so you can't even get a haircut for months AND wear masks even when you're not going into businesses. The mayor of Boston actually scolded joggers and bicyclists for not wearing masks never mind that you could hyperventilate and pass out. It's beyond caution, it's taking away basic rights including freedom of religion. The Christian Bible says do not neglect to assemble yourselves together (Hebrews 10:25). I will be interested to see if a religious freedom case makes it to the Supreme Court.
The Bible also says "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. 6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.…" Matthew 6:6 I'm pretty sure God doesn't want churches full of people infecting (and reinfecting, which looks possible with this scourge) each other. Or maybe He does.
We “risk death” every time we leave the house for a haircut, and always have. This virus is just one additional factor. But what is the best way to assess that factor? If we look at deaths per 100,000, places like Georgia and Florida seem far better off than New York and New Jersey (I’m looking at statista.com). Texas is doing better than famously restrictive California.
I realize there are many variables at play here that affect how much a given area is affected, and that we will be in a much better position to make comparisons a year or two from now, so it seems premature to me to wave the bloody shirt at the “reckless” decisions of governors for “prioritizing the economy over lives”. Surely there is a workable position somewhere between ignoring the virus and confining the population like veal calves for the indefinite future?
Our liberal governor, in an interview defending the opening of some businesses, said every American at some time with either get the virus and become sick, be exposed to the virus and be asymptomatic, or be vaccinated. Speculation of course, but could be over the next several months. I suppose alternatives would be the virus mutates to a less virulent form or some sort of herd immunity happens sooner.
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-20, 11:55am
Hear hear!
Personally, I wouldn't risk death for a haircut, but that's just me.
I'm not sure I'd risk it for my job. Many times I end up contemplating whether I should quit or go back if they force us back in a time of rampant virus spread. And it's not at all clear it's better to have a job. All this for a job I can do at home anyway, but doesn't mean working from home will be allowed. So if I quit and end up poor, well better poor than dead, better poor than on a ventilator (which won't help my finances either), although I've taken the opposite position at times (tell me what kind of world I live in that I'm SO OFTEN weighing death versus being unable to make a living, that's it's so often death or unemployment, unemployment or suicide, that this is life here so often). Poverty in America also of course leads to death, but in a longer run. It doesn't have to be this way, yea most countries have a safety net, but not murica. And I pray for a cautious governor, I mean maybe I have one, that remains to be seen.
Teacher Terry
5-5-20, 12:53pm
My grandpa was extremely religious yet rarely went to church. He read the Bible daily and kept it to himself. Truly religious people can do the same. Some states are being stupid and people will die in bigger numbers than needed.
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-20, 1:09pm
Our liberal governor, in an interview defending the opening of some businesses, said every American at some time with either get the virus and become sick, be exposed to the virus and be asymptomatic, or be vaccinated. Speculation of course, but could be over the next several months. I suppose alternatives would be the virus mutates to a less virulent form or some sort of herd immunity happens sooner.
I don't think an actually liberal governor would put it that way even if they pursued reopening (actions matter more than words but). Even if one is doomed to get the virus no choice, there is probably even individual value in postponing it, one will be *slightly* older, but treatments might be developed, they might get some better handle on treating it etc. Maybe none of that happens. But maybe it does. But society wide those almost certainly aren't the only options. We can't look at countries that handled it well from the beginning as clearly that cat is out of the bag, but ...
I keep thinking of those poor, poor meat packing plant workers, who Trump and his cronies are forcing to go back into an environment certain to be fatal to a percentage of them, with few "suggested" safeguards. If they refuse to go back, or quit, they won't get unemployment. It's sickening the way we treat our workers in this country.
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-20, 2:17pm
I keep thinking of those poor, poor meat packing plant workers, who Trump and his cronies are forcing to go back into an environment certain to be fatal to a percentage of them, with few "suggested" safeguards. If they refuse to go back, or quit, they won't get unemployment.
it's horrible
Speaking of haircuts...I bought a cheap pair of electric clippers off Amazon and have be self trimming. Yesterday my barber called to say she is back in business and taking appointments. Masks are required and no more than 4 people in a rather largish salon type place. I made an appointment in mid-June, which can be changed or cancelled between now and then.
There are things that can be postponed, maybe for long periods of time. Dental cleanings and exams, routine physicals, eye exams, and getting into some grayer areas, things like haircuts, yoga classes with good distancing, or pleasure travel by plane. At what point or decision markers will you guys or gals feel comfortable resuming some of these things? It seems given from many of the medical experts that the CV-19 isn't going away any time soon and could return with vengeance in the fall.
The day the gym opens, I'm back there! I only use the recumbent bike. That's easy enough to wipe down. Easy enough for only every other bike to be used.
I gave in and cut my bangs last week. They're somewhat curly so it didn't matter so much if things are a bit uneven - hard to tell with the curls.
At what point or decision markers will you guys or gals feel comfortable resuming some of these things? It seems given from many of the medical experts that the CV-19 isn't going away any time soon and could return with vengeance in the fall.
My first decision-marker will be with my son and DIL as to when we can finally see the kids in person!! Today is my New Jersey GS's 3rd birthday and I'm pining for time with all four of them. I will also try to get an appointment for a real physical. I haven't been to the doctor in 5 years and I think it's about time.
The minute the pool and the library reopen, I will be there!
I have always been averse to crowds so will continue in that mode. I will go to the library as soon as it opens. We are thinking about a road trip to see the grand-twins for their 2nd birthday in early June. Will see how things are playing out in a couple of weeks and then decide. Not sure if hotels/restaurants on the way are open or even will be since it's a day and a half trip. I should see a doc about an issue but am putting that off too as I know it will just involve more invasive tests. Luckily, had a haircut and dental cleaning in early March so good for a while.
I am going to hang back and see if there is a 2nd or 3rd wave....
Well, thanks to Dado's excellent suggestion, I have ordered three new masks, using the hair bandeau and gaiter designs. I wasn't going to spend the money but as my husband reminded me, we're going to have to wear these all summer, so why not see if I can't find something that doesn't mess up my breathing. They're even pretty. Will report back on how they function, once they arrive. I have high hopes for the gaiter style because it is for motorcyclist use in the summer, to repel dust.
Ordered these... in bamboo. Sounds like they will be comfortable in summer also???? .... adjustable around ears and nose.....
https://thenxtstop.com/products/travleisure-adjustable-reusable-washable-face-mask
The minute the pool and the library reopen, I will be there!
Our city announced yesterday, that no pools will open this year. The water park, OTOH, states it will but no open date announced at this time.
I am going to hang back and see if there is a 2nd or 3rd wave....
+1.
Hear hear!
Personally, I wouldn't risk death for a haircut, but that's just me.
Ordered this a few days ago. Pricey, but I usually don't spend much on haircuts so feel I can afford to try this. DH is not thrilled because I want him to cut my hair. There are tutorials on Youtube. There is no way I would try cutting my own hair.
https://www.combpal.com
iris lilies
5-5-20, 5:21pm
I have been cutting my own hair for 40 years. Most people would say “well, it looks like it!” Haha but I am ok with that. I am trying a shorter version and that works, too.
I had purchased some masks that I found uncomfortable, but DH and Dsis found acceptable. I then bought masks from this place which I find much more comfortable: https://www.shopprefix.com/. Apparently they donate part of their proceeds to a foodbank in LA. We liked the masks well enough to order a couple more. Since we can't very well go try these things on before we buy them - ha! - I do appreciate hearing product reviews from my SLF family.
PS: It looks like the masks favored by Dado are sold out.
I keep thinking of those poor, poor meat packing plant workers, who Trump and his cronies are forcing to go back into an environment certain to be fatal to a percentage of them, with few "suggested" safeguards. If they refuse to go back, or quit, they won't get unemployment. It's sickening the way we treat our workers in this country.
Oh yes, and those must be horrible jobs under the best of circumstances. I really feel for all those "nonessential" workers in GA, FL, TX too.
Originally Posted by bae
I am going to hang back and see if there is a 2nd or 3rd wave....
+1.
That's my position. I'm a little iffy on the "if" part, however. I'm pretty sure there will be at least one more wave.
We are going to push forward, not hang back, and try to get our move accomplished to be near parents, children, grandchildren, and siblings, so that if any of us gets sick, we'll have the others for emotional and practical support.
I suppose if one is ok with the idea that a majority of folks living in nursing homes and assisted living facilities will die, then sure, let’s go for herd immunity.
In nursing homes a majority of people are not dying. More people survive than die. One of the hardest hit nursing homes in my state was Soldiers Home in Holyoke. 77 of 230 residents died during a covid outbreak, though not all the deaths were attributed to the virus. Of those testing positive about half died.
In nursing homes a majority of people are not dying. More people survive than die. One of the hardest hit nursing homes in my state was Soldiers Home in Holyoke. 77 of 230 residents died during a covid outbreak, though not all the deaths were attributed to the virus. Of those testing positive about half died.
Woohoo. Only half died! Score!
No one cares about the useless old people anyway so a 50% death rate is no big deal. And bonus, Medicare and social security will be on a more secure footing financially. Smh.
I hope Costco now has big pallets of body bags for sale. That way it’ll be easy for the nursing homes to deal with the carnage when the worthless old folks die in bulk. Very efficient. Capitalism will he so proud.
iris lilies
5-6-20, 12:06am
I hope Costco now has big pallets of body bags for sale. That way it’ll be easy for the nursing homes to deal with the carnage when the worthless old folks die in bulk. Very efficient. Capitalism will he so proud.
Is your SO still fully paid?
Is your SO still fully paid?
Nope.
Woohoo. Only half died! Score!
No one cares about the useless old people anyway so a 50% death rate is no big deal. And bonus, Medicare and social security will be on a more secure footing financially. Smh.
I support an increase in Social Security benefits to US citizens who have paid into the system. I also support universal healthcare so they do not have to pay for supplemental Medicare plans. If you're looking for an advocate of reduced social spending you've got the wrong person.
I support an increase in Social Security benefits to US citizens who have paid into the system. I also support universal healthcare so they do not have to pay for supplemental Medicare plans. If you're looking for an advocate of reduced social spending you've got the wrong person.
I was just trying to make your mass death plan more appealing to conservatives.
I was just trying to make your mass death plan more appealing to conservatives.
And boy that never gets old.
Anecdotal evidence from two of the nursing homes/assisted living places we looked at for my parents in Maine.
No cases in my parents' facility, and a very good plan in place for what happens if someone does develop the virus.
In the one we did not go with, here is their situation:
"There continue to be no positive cases at x, independent living at y, or the z Center building which houses short term rehab and skilled nursing. We are following CDC guidelines for isolation, designated staffing and additional personal protective equipment. The A, assisted living, had a total of 15 individuals who tested positive for COVID-19 between April 10 and April 24: ten residents and five staff members. All of the staff and eight residents have recovered, one resident has passed away, and one remains in the hospital. "
I know there were cases at the Veteran's Home but do not know those numbers.
I have been extremely impressed with the measures being taken to protect residents, although obviously quite concerned with the impact that some of the measures is having on people's mental functioning, which is declining, at least in my parents, who are showing cognitive decline due to isolation.
The facilities are in a terrible position. So are the families. There was no warning, no notice, no opportunity to take them out. But the facilities are working so hard to protect their residents, and we are very grateful.
I guess this is just fallout from a generally terrible situation.
And talk about body bags at Costco-- you think this makes things better for people?
Teacher Terry
5-6-20, 8:18pm
I really feel sorry for the residents and workers in homes. It’s a huge risk to all involved. Even young workers are dying.
I really feel sorry for the residents and workers in homes. It’s a huge risk to all involved. Even young workers are dying.
Yes. Healthcare workers in EVERY environment are at significant risk. I doubt SNFs had a supply of N95 masks at all let alone a satisfactory inventory of regular face masks.:|(
Yes, healthcare workers are at risk. But imagine a world in which all infectious diseases were eliminated from the face of the earth. How many of them would be out of work? Their whole profession is based on people being sick. The US healthcare model incentivizes treatment of illnesses rather than prevention. I write that we should encourage people to improve their lifestyles so they are less susceptible to the coronavirus and people disagree.
Yes, healthcare workers are at risk. But imagine a world in which all infectious diseases were eliminated from the face of the earth. How many of them would be out of work? Their whole profession is based on people being sick. The US healthcare model incentivizes treatment of illnesses rather than prevention. I write that we should encourage people to improve their lifestyles so they are less susceptible to the coronavirus and people disagree.
Infectious disease as a cause, is a very small portion of healthcare provided. So a tiny # of jobs would be lost!
Please do share, what makes a person "suspectible"to Coronovirus? And how would one prevent asthma? How does one prevent old age? Why does a child get Type 1 Diabetes that goes on with them through adulthood? How does one prevent hypertension?
Who is most at risk for the coronavirus disease?
People of all ages can be infected by the new coronavirus (2019-nCoV). Older people, and people with pre-existing medical conditions (such as asthma, diabetes, heart disease) appear to be more vulnerable to becoming severely ill with the virus.
WHO advises people of all ages to take steps to protect themselves from the virus, for example by following good hand hygiene and good respiratory hygiene.
And talk about body bags at Costco-- you think this makes things better for people?[/FONT][/COLOR]
I suppose we could pretend that there haven’t been nursing homes with catastrophic death rates from this but denying reality isn’t particularly useful. What’s next? States squashing research about the virus and what’s likely to happen when they reopen too soon? Oh wait, that’s exactly what’s happening in states like Arizona and Florida.
People SHOULD be horrified at the idea of Costco pallets of body bags. But the answer is not to pretend that it isn’t reality, The answer is to hold our elected leaders accountable to make sure that those bulk body bags aren’t needed.
Teacher Terry
5-7-20, 12:24am
My cousin had type 1 diabetes as a baby. My son had asthma at 1. I will tell them to get healthy. ��
flowerseverywhere
5-7-20, 4:37am
Yes, healthcare workers are at risk. But imagine a world in which all infectious diseases were eliminated from the face of the earth. How many of them would be out of work? Their whole profession is based on people being sick. The US healthcare model incentivizes treatment of illnesses rather than prevention. I write that we should encourage people to improve their lifestyles so they are less susceptible to the coronavirus and people disagree.
I’m not sure how to do that. Despite walking miles everyday and eating right I’m still almost 70. Plus that pesky asthma despite never smoking ever in my life. Maybe I should step up to the plate and take one for the team.
My career was a nurse and my whole work life was based on prevention not cure. The medical practice I go to is all about prevention. But taking away healthcare, like the Republicans have done with their repeal and replace with nothing sounds like a recipe to promote infectious diseases, illness and death.
How can we imagine a world without infectious diseases if we don’t work with WHO, fund scientists and follow the recommendations of physicians and scientists?
Im really confused how the current situation isn’t a mass death plan for people who are poor, of color and old. I really mean that. I’m not trying to be clever or cute, just trying to figure out what is going on and what the end plan is besides to pollute the planet to make more money, let the burdensome die, and make the rich richer.
Please do share, what makes a person "suspectible"to Coronovirus? And how would one prevent asthma? How does one prevent old age? Why does a child get Type 1 Diabetes that goes on with them through adulthood? How does one prevent hypertension?
Who is most at risk for the coronavirus disease?
People of all ages can be infected by the new coronavirus (2019-nCoV). Older people, and people with pre-existing medical conditions (such as asthma, diabetes, heart disease) appear to be more vulnerable to becoming severely ill with the virus.
You answered your own question regarding what conditions make one susceptible to bad outcomes from corona. Not every case is tied to lifestyle but many are. For instance, while Type 1 diabetes is not, it's Type 2 in this country, tied to lifestyle, that has skyrocketed over the past few decades. Hypertension can often be prevented - or reversed - with diet and exercise. Smoking is one of the risk factors for asthma and COPD. But I understand many people don't want to change their lifestyles. It is easier to just take a pill. I've heard people say things like I am not going to cut back my drinking, I'll just take the statins.
Regarding old age, we all have to die sometime of something. There is no fountain of youth.
My cousin had type 1 diabetes as a baby. My son had asthma at 1. I will tell them to get healthy. ��
Yup. You've got some serious work to do!!!! Does this make you a Mom failure?
Ridiculous!
You answered your own question regarding what conditions make one susceptible to bad outcomes from corona. Not every case is tied to lifestyle but many are. For instance, while Type 1 diabetes is not, it's Type 2 in this country, tied to lifestyle, that has skyrocketed over the past few decades. Hypertension can often be prevented - or reversed - with diet and exercise. Smoking is one of the risk factors for asthma and COPD. But I understand many people don't want to change their lifestyles. It is easier to just take a pill. I've heard people say things like I am not going to cut back my drinking, I'll just take the statins.
Regarding old age, we all have to die sometime of something. There is no fountain of youth.
good to know your healthcare experience is so much better and expansive than mine.
I don't know a single asthmatic that ever smoked. I don't know of a single child asthmatic who smoked. I know many healthy/active people with hypertension.
Don't whitewash the problem with sweeping "get healthy" statements.
I guess we'll just sit back and watch more people die. Body bags all around!
I guess we'll just sit back and watch more people die. Body bags all around!
One of the first logistical models I did earlier in the year for local Emergency Management included a spreadsheet tab labelled "Body Bags". That was a bit daunting.
But sure, stack 'em high.
Covid 19 has become the new Student Loan Forgiveness Program on this board. ;)
good to know your healthcare experience is so much better and expansive than mine.
I don't know a single asthmatic that ever smoked. I don't know of a single child asthmatic who smoked. I know many healthy/active people with hypertension.
Don't whitewash the problem with sweeping "get healthy" statements.
I guess we'll just sit back and watch more people die. Body bags all around!
My mother was diagnosed with asthma as a young person. Her doctor told her that smoking would help. She smoked for 40 or 50 years. I never knew her to suffer asthma symptoms.
Speaking of body bags: "In mid-March, as the Seattle region grappled with a coronavirus outbreak, a community health center caring for the area's Native American population made an urgent request to county, state and federal health agencies: Please send medical supplies.
What it received almost three weeks later left staff members stunned.
"My team turned ghost white," said Esther Lucero, chief executive officer of the Seattle Indian Health Board. "We asked for tests, and they sent us a box of body bags.""
Covid 19 has become the new Student Loan Forgiveness Program on this board. ;)
Does that make masks the new salad spinner? :-)
"My team turned ghost white," said Esther Lucero, chief executive officer of the Seattle Indian Health Board. "We asked for tests, and they sent us a box of body bags."[/I]"
To be fair, body bags are medical supplies/PPE. And you need more of them for this than you do for other things - our protocol requires double-bagging.
... I know many healthy/active people with hypertension.
Don't whitewash the problem with sweeping "get healthy" statements.
I guess we'll just sit back and watch more people die. Body bags all around!
As someone pointed out, most adults have some comorbidity (half of adults, for example, have high blood pressure, by some accounts*), but here we go again casting blame right and left. It's the virus that's at fault here. Plenty of people in other countries, without our societal health problems, have died of this.
*Medical News Today
I haven't seen anyone mention obesity as a leading factor.
Does that make masks the new salad spinner? :-)
:~):~) Good one!
but here we go again casting blame right and left. It's the virus that's at fault here.
Exactly. But many don't choose that as the truth.
ApatheticNoMore
5-7-20, 12:07pm
I'm not against anyone trying to be healthy, I just don't think it's ok to let people die just because they didn't choose to be healthy and some just because luck of the draw.
I'm not against anyone trying to be healthy, I just don't think it's ok to let people die just because they didn't choose to be healthy and some just because luck of the draw.
Or--worse yet--they followed national health guidelines and became less healthy (Eat lots of carbohydrates! Eat less fat!) with diabetes and other inflammatory conditions.
good to know your healthcare experience is so much better and expansive than mine.
I don't know a single asthmatic that ever smoked. I don't know of a single child asthmatic who smoked. I know many healthy/active people with hypertension.
Don't whitewash the problem with sweeping "get healthy" statements.
I guess we'll just sit back and watch more people die. Body bags all around!
I know asthmatics who smoked tobacco, marijuana, and crack cocaine. This is the problem with anecdotes rather than facts.
I haven't seen anyone mention obesity as a leading factor.
Tradd here is an article which notes the CDC lists obesity as a covid-19 risk factor:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/latest-evidence-on-obesity-and-covid-19
Does that make masks the new salad spinner? :-)
Just make sure that the mask doesn't push your number of possessions over 200!
Or--worse yet--they followed national health guidelines and became less healthy (Eat lots of carbohydrates! Eat less fat!) with diabetes and other inflammatory conditions.
Yes, PSAs would need to reflect current best knowledge and practices not who lobbies Washington the most for product category placement in the food pyramid. Exercise and stop smoking would be less controversial.
But judging by the reaction here asking people to do anything preventive to reduce their underlying risk factors is a horrible thing. There is always some anecdotal outlier whose condition is congenital and they use that to excuse anyone else from trying.
Tradd here is an article which notes the CDC lists obesity as a covid-19 risk factor:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/latest-evidence-on-obesity-and-covid-19
Oh, I know I've seen it in the news. I meant here, in this thread. People here have talked about things like high blood pressure, diabetes, but haven't mentioned (that I've seen) here.
I doubt SNFs had a supply of N95 masks at all let alone a satisfactory inventory of regular face masks.:|(
When you fail to plan you plan to fail. I guess they were focused on other things like consolidation and maximizing profits.
Teacher Terry
5-7-20, 8:40pm
As a asthmatic I wouldn’t live long if I smoked anything. I don’t know any that do. Asthma is often caused by allergies or poor air quality. Smokers get COPD . Although I know non smokers with it.
This discussion puts me in mind of something my former doctor said to me. He was an old-school realist who said that our goal was to control my condition well enough for something else to kill me.
When you fail to plan you plan to fail. I guess they were focused on other things like consolidation and maximizing profits.
In general, a SNF shouldn't need N95s or regular masks. So I disagree with your assessment.
ApatheticNoMore
5-8-20, 4:37am
the personal responsibility angle on this of all things seems rather tangential to anything, because really if one is concerned about covid is almost anyone's concerns only themselves or maybe also others they care about?
But one can't "take personal responsibility" for others behavior if they are obese or smokers or elderly obviously (one of these things is not like the others). That's al-anon 101. But the horror of "sacrifice the weak" as social policy persists.
But I guess the distress of it all, this living in crazy times in a crazy place, can penetrate deep enough that one may as well be adopting the psychology of a concentration camp victim, just survival, day by day survival, personal hope for one's survival as the entire of one's focus. But that one's focus has narrowed that much to only focus on one's survival, as all one is capable of even processing, seems a sign of the trauma.
And as for one's survival of course the best thing to do is not get covid, to avoid it, but if one gets it anyway despite taking every precaution, then be as healthy as they can, hope they are able to fight it off (although not to fight it off TOO strongly as that can kill you too, but I don't think there is much can be done about that - I don't think we can produce "perfect medium" immune systems, we can just be healthy is all).
1 in 5 Americans is now unemployed. I would be interested in knowing how many of the remaining 4 of 5 get to work from home and how many can't and, as ANM says despite their best efforts, could get sick. I don't think bandannas and other cloth coverings around people's faces and temperature checks will keep me safe at work. If I'm going to get it anyways I may as well be able to get my hair cut and do other things I want. Yesterday a customer came in the employees only office area, the manager did nothing, and when I spoke to the intruder - very nicely - he said, "What are you going to do? Kick me out?" There's not a day goes by I feel safe from the virus at work, but I do have the right to quit as an employee at will. I choose to work and despite the risks I am happy to have a job. Others should have the choice to open or close their businesses and if they want to take on the risk of selling to me and I want to take on the risk of buying so be it. Life is full of risks.
1 in 5 Americans is now unemployed. I would be interested in knowing how many of the remaining 4 of 5 get to work from home and how many can't and, as ANM says despite their best efforts, could get sick. I don't think bandannas and other cloth coverings around people's faces and temperature checks will keep me safe at work. If I'm going to get it anyways I may as well be able to get my hair cut and do other things I want. Yesterday a customer came in the employees only office area, the manager did nothing, and when I spoke to the intruder - very nicely - he said, "What are you going to do? Kick me out?" There's not a day goes by I feel safe from the virus at work, but I do have the right to quit as an employee at will. I choose to work and despite the risks I am happy to have a job. Others should have the choice to open or close their businesses and if they want to take on the risk of selling to me and I want to take on the risk of buying so be it. Life is full of risks.
So, you’re proposing sort of the flip version of ‘I’ve got mine so eff everyone else’. What you seem to be saying is ‘I don’t have my security from this so why should anyone else?’
Someone equally unempathetic could say ‘why don’t you find a job that can be done from home instead of complaining that everyone should have to risk their lives?’
Jp, what I'm saying is more like security is an illusion for anyone not able to hunker down in their house for 18 months to 2 years. Most of us are not prepared to be survivalists like that.
Jp, what I'm saying is more like security is an illusion for anyone not able to hunker down in their house for 18 months to 2 years. Most of us are not prepared to be survivalists like that.
And for all the people saying, "I work at home or I am retired or I have investments that I can live off of indefinitely, so I will get groceries delivered, cut my own hair, etc. etc." you are especially lucky and protected by your money, and getting things sent by Amazon and having groceries delivered depends upon the work of others who do not have that luxury or that protection.
It's turning out to be a very unequal proposition, the protection of the vulnerable, because anyone who is out working now is more vulnerable than those of us lucky enough to work at home.
And if we are going to get Covid, I'd rather get it with employment and health insurance than laid off. That's my opinion; I understand that decent people can actually hold different opinions from my own, and that does not make them bad people.
Any biologists here? I have been thinking how covid strikes most notably in densely populated areas like NYC or in dense housing arrangements like nursing homes. Are there parallels with other members of the animal kingdom? Do viruses gain a foothold and rage through a species when that species is overpopulated for its habitat? Hunters thin deer to prevent problems, but no one thins humans. I am not saying anyone should! But maybe viruses do the thinning.
Jp, what I'm saying is more like security is an illusion for anyone not able to hunker down in their house for 18 months to 2 years. Most of us are not prepared to be survivalists like that.
The people in Germany and New Zealand and Australia aren’t hunkering down for 18-24 months. The only reason we will need to hunker that long is the extreme incompetence of everyone in the trump administration.
Daily deaths are projected to be 3,000 in a few weeks. How long before they are 6,000? 7,000? 8,000? I suppose eventually we’ll run out of useless old people and people who should have taken better care of themselves and deserve to die and the daily death toll will fall. But there were be a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering in the meantime.
Any biologists here? I have been thinking how covid strikes most notably in densely populated areas like NYC or in dense housing arrangements like nursing homes. Are there parallels with other members of the animal kingdom? Do viruses gain a foothold and rage through a species when that species is overpopulated for its habitat? Hunters thin deer to prevent problems, but no one thins humans. I am not saying anyone should! But maybe viruses do the thinning.
Absolutely. That’s why factory farms feed the animals insane amounts of antibiotics for their whole lives.
iris lilies
5-8-20, 8:40am
Any biologists here? I have been thinking how covid strikes most notably in densely populated areas like NYC or in dense housing arrangements like nursing homes. Are there parallels with other members of the animal kingdom? Do viruses gain a foothold and rage through a species when that species is overpopulated for its habitat? Hunters thin deer to prevent problems, but no one thins humans. I am not saying anyone should! But maybe viruses do the thinning.
And for all the people saying, "I work at home or I am retired or I have investments that I can live off of indefinitely, so I will get groceries delivered, cut my own hair, etc. etc." you are especially lucky and protected by your money, and getting things sent by Amazon and having groceries delivered depends upon the work of others who do not have that luxury or that protection.
It's turning out to be a very unequal proposition, the protection of the vulnerable, because anyone who is out working now is more vulnerable than those of us lucky enough to work at home.
And if we are going to get Covid, I'd rather get it with employment and health insurance than laid off. That's my opinion; I understand that decent people can actually hold different opinions from my own, and that does not make them bad people.
I think this is an important point, that those of us who are privileged to stay home are in fact privileged. And it fits in with my idea that we, the privileged, need to exercise our privilege by not increasing the burden on society by getting sick.
I think this is an important point, that those of us who are privileged to stay home are in fact privileged. And it fits in with my idea that we, the privileged, need to exercise our privilege by not increasing the burden on society by getting sick.
+1.
I'm immensely grateful to be able to stay safely at home. I'm sorry for those who are expected to go to work and risk their lives without PPEs and/or medical or societal support.
Seems to me that humans aren't very good at self-regulating. We have all kinds of laws that consider "the other" and that technically "violate" our rights - smoking outside only, driving the speed limit and on and on. Wearing a mask when in public signifies you care. When I do go out, I am struck by the number of males in particular who do not wear masks. I guess it is an act of defiance.
ApatheticNoMore
5-8-20, 11:48am
And for all the people saying, "I work at home or I am retired or I have investments that I can live off of indefinitely, so I will get groceries delivered, cut my own hair, etc. etc." you are especially lucky and protected by your money, and getting things sent by Amazon and having groceries delivered depends upon the work of others who do not have that luxury or that protection.
It's turning out to be a very unequal proposition, the protection of the vulnerable, because anyone who is out working now is more vulnerable than those of us lucky enough to work at home.
And if we are going to get Covid, I'd rather get it with employment and health insurance than laid off. That's my opinion; I understand that decent people can actually hold different opinions from my own, and that does not make them bad people.
my thinking on this is that if the privileged are able to avoid this, then why should I die just because I'm not rich? F it, and maybe I refuse to go back to work. F work. F capitalism. F wealth. F America. F Trump. Other countries can deal with this problem and we can't even. Not dying for this horrible country. If I'm going to throw away my life shouldn't it be for something I at least believe in? This isn't it. The Tsars can fight their own wars. Me dying doesn't mean the privileged don't escape this, of course they do, it merely means me dying.
This country could: 1) deal with the virus 2) pay people to stay home while it does so, ideally though their jobs so they have one to go back to to, but even if they don't through UBI etc. 3) provide PPE for those few essential workers and try to minimize the amount of essential work 4) rebuild the economy if necessary afterward (but less necessary if you do 1-3) when it's over. It chooses none of this, only to give Wall Street trillions, why should I die for it? And it doesn't have to have healthcare tied to jobs either.
And by the way essential workers actually might want people staying home as it means less community spread and thus less risk to them as well.
I have done my part as much as I can think of for the essential workers by not buying anything but necessities so that they can have as little work as possible. I still eat, omg, you want to make that my crime. I'm not buying anything else. What if they had an economy and nobody came?
my thinking on this is that if the privileged are able to avoid this, then why should I die just because I'm not rich? F it, and maybe I refuse to go back to work. F work. F capitalism. F wealth. F America. F Trump.
What practical course of action do you plan to take after all the Fing?
ApatheticNoMore
5-8-20, 12:25pm
What happens to me? Even I don't care, just I know we are being ordered to die. All the experts keep saying "don't open it all up yet", and we pretend that all this expert advice somehow isn't real in what has to be the gaslighting of the century (yea I know climate change, at least that's a truly hard problem). And reopening will happen because they have no plan to actually deal with the virus. What happens to this country, I have no hope for it, although maybe I should have hope in young people. It's not even going to recover economically, not really, it botched everything so badly.
flowerseverywhere
5-8-20, 12:56pm
I think this is an important point, that those of us who are privileged to stay home are in fact privileged. And it fits in with my idea that we, the privileged, need to exercise our privilege by not increasing the burden on society by getting sick.
exactly what DH and I were just talking about. We fell like we are part of the stay at home nerds but there are some behaving like a senior citizen version of animal house. My friend who works for a local MD said they are expecting a huge spike within a few weeks here. Restaurants and stores are open so it’s party time.
I think this is an important point, that those of us who are privileged to stay home are in fact privileged. And it fits in with my idea that we, the privileged, need to exercise our privilege by not increasing the burden on society by getting sick.
Yeah, today I went to the dentist. I broke off half of a back molar. I was concerned about getting an infection. The level of caution taken was very unnerving. I told them I wanted them to check the tooth, if nothing HAD to be done to get me out of there ASAP. I live in a small town so the idea of grocery delivery is not realistic either. I am retired but do not consider myself privileged. There are times when you have no choice but to go out in society no matter your situation. It helps that not everyone is out but staying home.
Teacher Terry
5-8-20, 1:34pm
My friends in Wisconsin feel the governor overreacted when he extended the order 6 weeks at once until the end of May. Considering that Wisconsin has double the population of Nevada and many less cases it appears so. They finally get a Democratic governor and blow it.
News you can use to stay healthy as things open up:
https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them
In order to get infected you need to get exposed to an infectious dose of the virus; the estimate is that you need about ~1000 SARS-CoV2 viral particles for an infection to take hold, but this still needs to be determined experimentally. That could be 1000 viral particles you receive in one breath or from one eye-rub, or 100 viral particles inhaled with each breath over 10 breaths, or 10 viral particles with 100 breaths. Each of these situations can lead to an infection.
The article then goes on to explain how much virus is released by various activities (breathing, coughing, sneezing, singing, etc).
TLDR version, being indoors with more than a few people for longer periods of time is far more risky than most non-crowded outdoor activities (passing someone on the street), or brief indoor activities (shopping in a big, non-crowded store.)
My friends in Wisconsin feel the governor overreacted when he extended the order 6 weeks at once until the end of May. Considering that Wisconsin has double the population of Nevada and many less cases it appears so. They finally get a Democratic governor and blow it.
The numbers are good because people are staying home, aren't they?
I would rather err on the side of caution in this case.
CDC guidelines on the matter:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/05/cdc-guidance-for-reopening-is-deep-sixed-by-the-white-house-1/?fbclid=IwAR3mvWWAhibicwEQ9-bAwjwOVi7fZjWrpgQTPbgY7UK1O22j8wsjGuEyacc
The numbers are good because people are staying home, aren't they?
I would rather err on the side of caution in this case.
CDC guidelines on the matter:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/05/cdc-guidance-for-reopening-is-deep-sixed-by-the-white-house-1/?fbclid=IwAR3mvWWAhibicwEQ9-bAwjwOVi7fZjWrpgQTPbgY7UK1O22j8wsjGuEyacc
Yeah, my thought was same as Jane's... if WI has double the population and many less cases, maybe it's because of the governor's caution and leadership.
Here in VT, we are way down the list on #s of cases, and our curve is on the downslope, yet no one expects any businesses to open before the end of May. Phil Scott just opened parks and dog parks and golf courses, but everything else will be closed for the coming weeks.
ApatheticNoMore
5-8-20, 2:01pm
There seems no immediate plan to send anyone back to the office for awhile, they will wait and see, maybe even regardless what the governor does. And my boss also said she'd rather work from home, not that she determines it. Everything changes by the day, I don't think anyone including this state has a plan, yes I've tried to learn about their vague so called plans.
And the results are in. If everyone wears a mask the spread of the virus is significantly slowed.
https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/25410/20200421/austria-90-drop-coronavirus-cases-requiring-people-wear-face-masks.htm
Yeah--I quoted this guy a few weeks back: "The big mistake in the US and Europe, in my opinion, is that people aren't wearing masks," said George Gao, the director-general of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention, to Telegraph.
Gao added, "This virus is transmitted by droplets and close contact. Droplets play a very important role - you've got to wear a mask, because when you speak, there are always droplets coming out of your mouth."
And I've maintained all along that masks work. I think the reason we were told early they were worthless was to conserve masks for healthcare workers.
My friends in Wisconsin feel the governor overreacted when he extended the order 6 weeks at once until the end of May. Considering that Wisconsin has double the population of Nevada and many less cases it appears so. They finally get a Democratic governor and blow it.
I disagree. Our numbers have not met the guidelines yet ... 2 weeks with declining numbers. In my mind, it is better to err on the side of caution. I don't necessarily like Evers but think this was the right call.
dado potato
5-8-20, 8:22pm
My friends in Wisconsin feel the governor overreacted when he extended the order 6 weeks at once until the end of May. Considering that Wisconsin has double the population of Nevada and many less cases it appears so. They finally get a Democratic governor and blow it.
I do not have any information about Nevada, but concerning Wisconsin:
As of 5/8/20,
97,265 negative tests.
9,590 positive tests.
On 5/7 Governor Evers announced that there would be free testing of African Americans, Latinos and tribal community members conducted by the Wisconsin National Guard in community testing sites throughout the state.
I would expect that increased testing will have teh effect of increasing the numbers of positives in the state.
Of those already tested positive, there were 1,767 hospitalizations (18.4%), and 384 deaths (4%)
The number of new cases each day is increasing in Wisconsin. The 14-day moving average of the daily new cases keeps going up.
As of 5/8/20 302.42
As of 5/3/20 258.43
As of 4/28/20 195.28
AS of 4/23/20 154.78
and so on back to 3/16/20 when the one-day number of new cases in WI was 47.
In Wisconsin the government "Plan to Get Moving Again" is called The Badger Bounce Back. Those who have watched the antics of the mascot Bucky Badger at UW sporting events may recall how Bucky always bounces back ... often by doing push-ups (wink).
There could be some confusion created by the claim that social distancing "is working", because the exponential rate of increase is slowing, (the number days it takes for the number of new cases to double has increased from 3 to 12 days).
But arithmetically, as I indicated above, there has been no decline in the number of new cases (positive tests) each day.
The Governor continues to adhere to the same Gateway criteria, which are detailed at the linked site. Wisconsin is "opening up" too slow for some residents, and too fast for some others. http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/outbreaks/index
I do not have any information about Nevada, but concerning Wisconsin:
As of 5/8/20,
97,265 negative tests.
9,590 positive tests.
On 5/7 Governor Evers announced that there would be free testing of African Americans, Latinos and tribal community members conducted by the Wisconsin National Guard in community testing sites throughout the state.
I would expect that increased testing will have teh effect of increasing the numbers of positives in the state.
Of those already tested positive, there were 1,767 hospitalizations (18.4%), and 384 deaths (4%)
The number of new cases each day is increasing in Wisconsin. The 14-day moving average of the daily new cases keeps going up.
As of 5/8/20 302.42
As of 5/3/20 258.43
As of 4/28/20 195.28
AS of 4/23/20 154.78
and so on back to 3/16/20 when the one-day number of new cases in WI was 47.
In Wisconsin the government "Plan to Get Moving Again" is called The Badger Bounce Back. Those who have watched the antics of the mascot Bucky Badger at UW sporting events may recall how Bucky always bounces back ... often by doing push-ups (wink).
There could be some confusion created by the claim that social distancing "is working", because the exponential rate of increase is slowing, (the number days it takes for the number of new cases to double has increased from 3 to 12 days).
But arithmetically, as I indicated above, there has been no decline in the number of new cases (positive tests) each day.
The Governor continues to adhere to the same Gateway criteria, which are detailed at the linked site. Wisconsin is "opening up" too slow for some residents, and too fast for some others. http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/outbreaks/index
So what do you think? Too fast, too slow or ?
If people want their state to open up they should refuse to take the test to keep the cases low. If they want it to stay closed they should clamor for testing to keep the number of cases high.
If people want their state to open up they should refuse to take the test to keep the cases low. If they want it to stay closed they should clamor for testing to keep the number of cases high.
I believe that's known as the Ostrich Method. Trump and his tame governors are all on board with it.
https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/94022387_10159702905275744_1224197058114617344_o.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=eewwGv5pdr0AX-IBnc6&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&_nc_tp=7&oh=a766806e42dd4b5b38a513290f506317&oe=5EDAF7FE
ToomuchStuff
5-9-20, 12:25pm
On 5/7 Governor Evers announced that there would be free testing of African Americans, Latinos and tribal community members conducted by the Wisconsin National Guard in community testing sites throughout the state.
My guess, is that is a racial discrimination lawsuit, waiting to happen.
dado potato
5-9-20, 12:56pm
So what do you think? Too fast, too slow or ?
Wisconsin's policy goal is to shift from "boxing in" the entire state population to isolating people who have the virus and could transmit it to others. The rate at which the shift will occur is based on "gating" criteria which are based on daily reports of data from hospitals. To the best of my knowledge the gating criteria were defined by senior public health civil servants, with strong input from the CDC in April. The Governor is a Democrat, and the majority of the Senate and Assembly are Republican. The latest modification of the "Safer at Home" restrictions extended the period to May 26, and permitted opening of:
libraries for pickup and drop off of library materials,
arts and crafts stores for curbside pickup,
and golf courses.
The Wisconsin legislature filed suit in the state Supreme Court for an injunction against the acting Secretary of DHS. The court agreed to hear the case. Will the Court, with its "conservative" majority, side with the Governor or the Legislature? The Governor's argument is that the the executive branch necessarily has broad powers to act in the interests of public health, and it would be dangerous to impede these powers with the technicalities of "rule-making". I am not a lawyer, but I would guess the Court will deny the injunction.
The Chamber of Commerce and the Tavern League of Wisconsin each have expounded alternative plans for all businesses to reopen with procedures to protect workers and customers based on the specific risks that are recognized in each situation. For example, the Tavern League would limit service to 50% of current capacity, and no more than 6 customers at a single table. Customers not sitting around a shared table would be asked to maintain a six-foot distance from other customers. Within both the Chamber of Commerce and the Tavern League there are members who cannot foresee their own continuation in business, unless somehow they are able to reopen, and "get the cash resister to ring again".
It seems to me that the Governor's path of least resistance is to periodically proclaim a limited victory (one after another, whether or not more Wisconsinites are testing positive with COVID-19 on a daily basis... as long as "95% of the hospitals" in the state are not overwhelmed). With each victory, the Governor can say another category of nonessential business can reopen, and the "Safer at Home" policy will continue for a few weeks more. The "best practices" now posted on the website of the Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation would improve the safety of employees and customers returning to the businesses that re-open. In my opinion, the business owners who have lost all their revenue since March 17 are unlikely to forgive Governor Evers, but their returning employees and customers will have less reason to carry a grudge.
Too fast/slow? In my opinion the gating criteria as originally expressed by the CDC required a DECLINE in reported cases, and CONTINUED EFFECTIVENESS of hospitals in treating patients without crisis standards of care. As a non-expert, it seemed to me these criteria were a science-based way of assessing the risk of community spread. So I thought the criteria were OK. There may be a tendency to look for success in the data, even when there are more new cases and more deaths caused by COVID-19. For example, Wisconsin sees progress in the decline in trips to hospital emergency rooms for COVID-19, and the decline in exponential spread of the disease ("flattening the curve".) Even though the economy is in a world of hurt, the Badger Bounce Back is not too slow for me.
dado potato
5-9-20, 1:26pm
The locations of the two new testing sites in Milwaukee are accessible to large numbers of African-American and Latino residents. Mayor Tom Barrett stated, "Anyone who wants to be tested can be tested." No appointment is necessary, there is no requirement to be symptomatic. Starting May 11, each testing site will have a capacity for 500 specimens per day.
Teacher Terry
5-9-20, 1:41pm
Dado that’s interesting about the positive tests because a few days ago when I looked it said 3800 with the virus.
dado potato
5-9-20, 1:56pm
Dado that’s interesting about the positive tests because a few days ago when I looked it said 3800 with the virus.
My source is http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov
I rechecked.
On 5/8/20 they reported 9,590 people in WI had tested positive.
On 4/16/20 that number was 3,875. I wonder if perhaps you saw an item from back then.
Teacher Terry
5-9-20, 2:00pm
Today it says Wisconsin has 10k.
Perfect lineup, Alan. Library people are clever that way...
You are lucky to have library services.
I've been checking out eBooks, as usual. I'm a voracious reader who hasn't been inside a library for at least a couple of years. As long as KCLS keeps downloading, I'll be satisfied.
catherine
5-10-20, 11:27am
Good article (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/finally-virus-got-me-scientist-who-fought-ebola-and-hiv-reflects-facing-death-covid-19?fbclid=IwAR1ocTC8tlBpQFOeKKWhGsP3l2L4w4IA3fWVdg 6RUEU2-QFeiBrLLoniMHs) about the actual experience of COVID by a world-known virologist who had it and nearly succumbed.
Many people think COVID-19 kills 1% of patients, and the rest get away with some flulike symptoms. But the story gets more complicated. Many people will be left with chronic kidney and heart problems. Even their neural system is disrupted. There will be hundreds of thousands of people worldwide, possibly more, who will need treatments such as renal dialysis for the rest of their lives. The more we learn about the coronavirus, the more questions arise. We are learning while we are sailing. That’s why I get so annoyed by the many commentators on the sidelines who, without much insight, criticize the scientists and policymakers trying hard to get the epidemic under control. That’s very unfair.
And the results are in. If everyone wears a mask the spread of the virus is significantly slowed.
https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/25410/20200421/austria-90-drop-coronavirus-cases-requiring-people-wear-face-masks.htm
This is not a double blind peer reviewed study. It is conjecture. It could be that the virus had already run its course.
If masks protect you, why can't people put on a mask and go into the covid wards to say goodbye to their dying relatives? Because it doesn't protect you, that's why.
You just don’t get it. The mask is not to protect you. It’s to protect OTHER people if you have the virus. We need to wear them for the same reason we’ve been told for decades to cough into our elbows.
This is not a double blind peer reviewed study. It is conjecture. It could be that the virus had already run its course.
If masks protect you, why can't people put on a mask and go into the covid wards to say goodbye to their dying relatives? Because it doesn't protect you, that's why.
See my comment over on the Explain this thread.
Simplemind
5-11-20, 4:48pm
Went to Home Depot today because our kitchen faucet broke. Thought traffic to and at the store would be light because Mother's day is over. Traffic was busy getting there, parking lot almost full. The line to get in doubled back on itself and I would say 90% were not wearing masks. Once in the store there was no sense of social distancing. If somebody needed something and I was standing by it they zoomed right in.
Went to Home Depot today because our kitchen faucet broke. Thought traffic to and at the store would be light because Mother's day is over. Traffic was busy getting there, parking lot almost full. The line to get in doubled back on itself and I would say 90% were not wearing masks. Once in the store there was no sense of social distancing. If somebody needed something and I was standing by it they zoomed right in.
Interesting! We were at a Home Depot today in northern Michigan and it was a completely different experience. 100% of people were wearing masks, you could not enter without one and there was someone appointed to make sure people abiding by this. They provided masks if you needed one. Everyone was at least 6 feet apart. Everyone was polite and friendly and kept distancing. The only people who did not seem to be distancing were a few of the employees who clumped around the restroom exit closer than 6 feet talking, but everyone had on masks.
Are your Home Depot’s limiting the number of people? I tried to go a couple weeks ago because I needed a cfl lightbulb and I was headed near that store anyway but they had a line of probably 40 people waiting so I came home and ordered one online.
Jelly Bean Prickster, the IL gov, is now saying the peak is going to be mid-June.
Are your Home Depot’s limiting the number of people? I tried to go a couple weeks ago because I needed a cfl lightbulb and I was headed near that store anyway but they had a line of probably 40 people waiting so I came home and ordered one online.
The one in my area is, as is Loew's. If I need something I will likely go to a smaller neighborhood hardware store to avoid the lines.
Yes, HD was limiting the number of people and had a sign about it.
Are your Home Depot’s limiting the number of people? I tried to go a couple weeks ago because I needed a cfl lightbulb and I was headed near that store anyway but they had a line of probably 40 people waiting so I came home and ordered one online.
Yes. I understand it is a corporate policy to manage the flow for safe social distancing.
This is not a double blind peer reviewed study. It is conjecture. It could be that the virus had already run its course.
If masks protect you, why can't people put on a mask and go into the covid wards to say goodbye to their dying relatives? Because it doesn't protect you, that's why.
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v1
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v1
Note in yellow "This version is not peer reviewed."
I like the first comment on the nonfinancial costs of wearing masks. The response to it was you need to protect elderly people. I do that. I stay away from them. There is more than one way to protect people. The government could be arranging food deliveries to them so they do not have to leave their homes. Or they could accept deliveries from volunteers like me. But the elderly are a powerful voting bloc and politicians are afraid to tell them they have to stay put, so we are infringing on everyone else's rights and gutting our economy instead lest the elderly get bored at home. The elderly self-quarantining is much more effective than them being in stores in close proximity to others but with people masked.
This drives me nuts with my mom. The latest was I stocked up on groceries so I won't have to go anywhere for 3 weeks. She will not let me go for her. The very next day she went to another store for some items the first store was out of. A couple days later to the drugstore for nonessential OTC items. Then the day after that to a nursery for plants. A few days later to Tractor Supply to browse their plants and see if they have seed potatoes. She could call and ask. She just wants to get out of the house and the narrative now is wandering around near other people is okay if you wear a mask. The stores are packed. The ice cream truck set up shop in the supermarket parking lot because that is where all the people are.
ETA My mother kept trying to get me to go visit with her in her living room for Mother's Day. She said we can wear masks. I refused and insisted on visiting outside 10+ feet away.
And talking to mom today, the mom who said I won't go to the grocery store for 3 weeks, after less than a week she went because "I know where everything in the store is so it doesn't take me long and I wear a mask."
This is a woman who has a pacemaker, various medical conditions, and has almost died twice. But hey, she's got that mask.
And talking to mom today, the mom who said I won't go to the grocery store for 3 weeks, after less than a week she went because "I know where everything in the store is so it doesn't take me long and I wear a mask."
This is a woman who has a pacemaker, various medical conditions, and has almost died twice. But hey, she's got that mask.
I hope for her sake that everyone else has a mask, since those will do more to keep her safe than her own mask.
I’m seeing online that LA County might extend its shutdown by three months.
More mask info.
We're going to be requiring masks in public settings in the County under many circumstances likely by tomorrow.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf
https://rs-delve.github.io/reports/2020/05/04/face-masks-for-the-general-public.html
Bae your latest link says implement early for good results. Have you not had cases yet on your island?
Bae your latest link says implement early for good results. Have you not had cases yet on your island?
The entire county had only 15 cases total, with ~3 weeks since our last case. The county next door to us, where the ferry comes from, had a very high rate of infection. We acted early, and ahead of the state, to close down transient vacation rentals, and engaged in a somewhat expensive media campaign to discourage strongly visitors. Our county of 15,000 people gets millions of tourist visitors a year. My island of 5000 gets about 1 million of them, from all over the world.
We are investigating how to reopen local businesses responsibly. However, this week, with the good weather and the reopening statewide of state parks for "local day use only", we have been flooded with off-island visitors, who clearly are not engaging in "local day use only", and who are not properly following our social distancing and other policies. We are also getting "virus tourists", who think this is a good place to hide out - it isn't really.
I suspect we will soon have a large rise in the number of cases, but we used the time wisely to prepare. Asking people to wear masks in public settings where they can't properly distance is important - we have 3 cemeteries here on the island, and no hospitals, ICU, ventilators, and so on.
ToomuchStuff
5-13-20, 3:34am
we have 3 cemeteries here on the island, and no hospitals, ICU, ventilators, and so on.
So three locations where six foot distancing is automatically the norm.:devil:
dado potato
5-13-20, 10:28am
@ Toomuchstuff
Good one!
dado potato
5-13-20, 10:57pm
Wisconsin's policy goal is to shift from "boxing in" the entire state population to isolating people who have the virus and could transmit it to others. The rate at which the shift will occur is based on "gating" criteria which are based on daily reports of data from hospitals. To the best of my knowledge the gating criteria were defined by senior public health civil servants, with strong input from the CDC in April. The Governor is a Democrat, and the majority of the Senate and Assembly are Republican. The latest modification of the "Safer at Home" restrictions extended the period to May 26, and permitted opening of:
libraries for pickup and drop off of library materials,
arts and crafts stores for curbside pickup,
and golf courses.
The Wisconsin legislature filed suit in the state Supreme Court for an injunction against the acting Secretary of DHS. The court agreed to hear the case. Will the Court, with its "conservative" majority, side with the Governor or the Legislature? The Governor's argument is that the the executive branch necessarily has broad powers to act in the interests of public health, and it would be dangerous to impede these powers with the technicalities of "rule-making". I am not a lawyer, but I would guess the Court will deny the injunction.
I guessed wrong this time! The Supreme Court ruled 4-3 to grant the injunction. So now, the legislature will be involved in a rule-making process, before there will be restrictions on travel or business practices.
Teacher Terry
5-13-20, 11:20pm
I am shocked at the decision.
I am shocked at the decision.
Why? The WI supreme court (from a virtual distance because of course they didn't want to actually come in contact with anyone) made it clear in the days before the primary last month that they are cool with people dying because that's the republican way. Now we get to watch WI follow GA and TN and KS into the rabbithole of "lots of new infections". And all the non-sciency people will be like "who would have thought this was going to happen??????" while the rest of the reality based community says "you're a special kinda stupid aren't ya?" and the non-sciency folks get upset that we're all so "judgey".
Teacher Terry
5-14-20, 1:25am
When I left Wisconsin in 1993 it was progressive and awesome. I have a hard time accepting reality.
It does seem very different than when we used to go there a lot and were looking to buy a house there back in the late 90's.
ApatheticNoMore
5-14-20, 3:19am
I suspect case counts etc. to be doctored, WI don't know, not saying specifically by them. But ultimately if there is mass death, you can't really hide that, people know. Or maybe I am wrong, and my last faith in humanity gone. Anyway there is an element of luck to it all, and who gets hit hard, but having no plan does tend to tempt fate, can't keep rolling "tails" forever.
The problem with WI is it is heavily gerrymandered, so the majority can vote Dem and R's have power.
I am shocked at the decision.
Why? It is the same state and the same political mechanism that was fine with making people wait outside for hours in early April to vote in a primary which could have been conducted by mail (or at least without a curiously restricted set of open polling places in Milwaukee).
Teacher Terry
5-14-20, 1:40pm
Steve, I was shocked by that also. Between all the political nonsense and high property taxes I would never move back.
My town's library will start curbside pickup of materials June 2nd.
I wish mine would let us bring the books back and start cleaning them so that when they reopen, things will be orderly again.
dado potato
5-14-20, 2:18pm
After the Wisconsin Supreme Court issued the injunction, some county health officers used their statutory authority to impose the same restrictions that had been imposed by the Secretary of DHS (which the court ruled she did not have authority to do). The counties that have ordered the continuation of restrictions (to date) include: Milwaukee, Brown, Kenosha, Dane, Rock and Outagamie.
Other counties are considering what action to take after the court ruling, and yet other counties appear to be allowing what Gov Evers has called "chaos".
During the Spanish Flu epidemic in 1918-1919, various Wisconsin local and county health officials quarantined people (there was no cure for influenza at the time) strictly, and there was no legal challenge that I know of.
WS Sect, 252.03 Local health officers may do what is reasonable and necessary for the prevention and suppression of disease; may forbid public gatherings to control outbreaks or epidemics.
Teacher Terry
5-14-20, 3:06pm
My sister said she saw the news last night and it showed bars that were packed.
frugal-one
5-14-20, 3:56pm
My sister said she saw the news last night and it showed bars that were packed.
Showed on news ... in Platteville, WI. People were shoulder to shoulder with no masks. Not good.
iris lilies
5-14-20, 4:04pm
Wonder how many bars that media cameramen had to go to define shoulder to shoulder patrons. ...just idle wonder...
Wonder how many bars that media cameramen had to go to define shoulder to shoulder patrons. ...just idle wonder...
That's what I saw in places on the island last weekend, and expect worse this weekend, and we aren't even "open".
Wonder how many bars that media cameramen had to go to define shoulder to shoulder patrons. ...just idle wonder...
Likely just one!
Likely just one!
People eager to "stick it to the libs" have to maintain appearances, you know.
ApatheticNoMore
5-14-20, 4:16pm
alcoholics not taking good care of their health ...
bad for the surrounding community (spread) for sure, but not shocking considering ..
alcoholics not taking good care of their health ...
bad for the surrounding community (spread) for sure, but not shocking considering ..
I doubt it-they are fine drinking at home. It was all those screaming "I want my rights" that went to the bars to socialize with their fellow hoax activists!
People eager to "stick it to the libs" have to maintain appearances, you know.
I doubt it-they are fine drinking at home. It was all those screaming "I want my rights" that went to the bars to socialize with their fellow hoax activists!
I'm impressed with this ability to divine group motivations based on nothing, that's awesome!
Even if they had started out somewhat "responsibly," by the end of the night their masks would be hanging off, and they'd be all up in their fellow revelers' faces. I contrast that with Dr. Fair, the virologist featured on the news who is hospitalized and receiving oxygen. He believes he caught the virus on a crowded flight to New Orleans. Because he was appropriately masked and gloved, and wiped down with sanitizer, he thinks he caught it when particles entered his eyes.
Dr. Fair: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/virologist-hospitalized-coronavirus-believes-he-got-it-through-his-eyes-n1206956
Do genetics play a role in US responses to the virus?
We are a nation of immigrants, and in order to pick up and move to a new country you are most likely going to have a risk taking gene. We are also a mobile - some might say restless country by and large. I am reading Prairie Fires now about Laura Ingalls Wilder and her family moved all the time, similar to some of my ancestors as I discovered doing genealogy.
Maybe those bellying up to the bar in Wisconsin or continuing to travel are expressing those genes. For instance, the daughter and son-in-law of a coworker were happy to be furloughed so they could travel from New England down to Tennessee to get a rescue dog.
Do genetics play a role in US responses to the virus?
We are a nation of immigrants, and in order to pick up and move to a new country you are most likely going to have a risk taking gene. We are also a mobile - some might say restless country by and large. I am reading Prairie Fires now about Laura Ingalls Wilder and her family moved all the time, similar to some of my ancestors as I discovered doing genealogy.
Maybe those bellying up to the bar in Wisconsin or continuing to travel are expressing those genes. For instance, the daughter and son-in-law of a coworker were happy to be furloughed so they could travel from New England down to Tennessee to get a rescue dog.
I think that's an interesting question, and risk-takers may have something in their DNA. I also have ancestors that came on the early ships right behind the Mayflower, and their grit and courage amaze me.
But motivation separates the risk-taking settlers and risk-taking COVID-defiers. Motivation to improve your life, to learn about the world, to create in brand new ways in new circumstances is risk-worthy. Motivation to cling to the old ways of shopping and socializing and conducting business as usual, when doing so imperils the lives of all of us, is not courageous. The people who traveled for the rescue dog is a nice story, but bellying up to a bar?
I think there is a more pronounced strain of anti-authoritarianism here than in most other nations. So many of our immigrant ancestors had little reason to trust or respect authority. People on the losing side of wars sold into slavery. Religious dissidents of various degrees of fanaticism. Exiled scoundrels. Escaped criminals. The desperate poor. Failed revolutionaries. The suffering oppressed, perhaps looking to do a little oppression of their own.
Is it any wonder that when various elites claim to speak for God, our best interests, Science or the latest fashion in social justice, a substantial minority almost reflexively thumbs its nose? Even at a substantial cost? The old Tory in me deplores it. The libertarian in me applauds it.
catherine
5-15-20, 10:51am
I think there is a more pronounced strain of anti-authoritarianism here than in most other nations. So many of our immigrant ancestors had little reason to trust or respect authority. People on the losing side of wars sold into slavery. Religious dissidents of various degrees of fanaticism. Exiled scoundrels. Escaped criminals. The desperate poor. Failed revolutionaries. The suffering oppressed, perhaps looking to do a little oppression of their own.
Is it any wonder that when various elites claim to speak for God, our best interests, Science or the latest fashion in social justice, a substantial minority almost reflexively thumbs its nose? Even at a substantial cost? The old Tory in me deplores it. The libertarian in me applauds it.
Interesting. (thinking about my own internal socio-political yin/yang)
Speaking of masks (which we weren't), a company local to Portland (for decades) offers both DIY instructions and pre-made masks for sale:
https://starks.com/vacuum-bag-surgical-masks/
I have no interest in this other than having bought a Kirby from them back in the seventies...
Catherine and LDAHL make good points. Most of our ancestors were some mixture of plucky, disgruntled, lawless, and/or restless, and they probably passed these traits down to us. Add to that we're a relatively young country and less homogeneous all the time, and it makes for a spicy stew.
I'm impressed with this ability to divine group motivations based on nothing, that's awesome!
Well, if you could see all the demonstrations and interviews in small towns in my rural state, you could divine the same thought. :~)
Well, if you could see all the demonstrations and interviews in small towns in my rural state, you could divine the same thought. :~)
A friend noticed a large number of Hawaiian shirts in attendance, and Googled. Supposedly, race war/anti government advocates wear them to symbolize "Boogaloo." This along with Confederate flags, AK-whatever, and swastikas, doesn't paint a pretty portrait of the crowd. Personally, I wish they had stuck to brown shirts.
I saw in tonight's news only two states have not eased restrictions - Massachusetts and Connecticut. In Mass we are getting protesters including businesspeople on Cape Cod concerned about the loss of tourism income in the summer. The crowd leans right but they don't sport Hawaiian shirts, guns or Confederate flags. At most you see MAGA hats.
Teacher Terry
5-16-20, 8:51pm
Chicago has not eased restrictions because Illinois is number 3 in the country for the most cases as of yesterday.
Chicago has not eased restrictions because Illinois is number 3 in the country for the most cases as of yesterday.
I was writing about the state level. Illinois has eased some restrictions.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-coronavirus-illinois-businesses-partially-reopen-20200428-vlbvmypik5gx7boyrwu2i42wpm-story.html
Teacher Terry
5-16-20, 9:06pm
They divided the state into 4 sections. I wonder if you would have a different perspective if you were retired. I think fear is driving your opinions.
Why are people rising up?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonchandler/2020/04/24/security-researchers-say-the-reopen-america-campaign-is-being-astroturfed
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