View Full Version : Conavirus......
ApatheticNoMore
7-19-20, 12:13pm
If we'd gone to herd immunity faster we'd have a million dead and have overwhelmed the hospitals. Judge for yourself what to think of advocates of that. Of course, since that's likely eventually anyway with out leadership, some just want to hurry up and get the genocide over with already, so at least we can return to shopping at the mall. The issue is less that herd immunity is impossible, probably not but it's uncertain, but the deaths to get there could be staggering, and then the disabilities.
oh and it's more than a little ironic that these advocates of herd immunity don't even live in hotspots, but places where the virus seems to be under control for now. But I doubt a move to FL right now sounds that appealing even being how much they claim to love mass sickness.
IMO, if we'd have had good leadership from the beginning, we could have starved it into oblivion, which seems to me a much more effective solution than the elusive herd immunity. Now we're stuck with it, complete with an administration pushing for universal classroom attendance.
A friend occasionally recommends the "This Week in Virology" podcast. One of the most recent featured an interview with Fauci. Often the podcast is over my head, but this one is very understandable. He discusses things like herd immunity, vaccine progress, what we know about modes of transmission, etc. Highly recommended. https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-641/
I watched this even though some of it was over my head. Thanks for posting.
I understand pulling back from the covid news cycle. It’s overwhelming on a good day.
I’m on day 10-11 depending on how I interpret early symptoms. I continue with extreme fatigue. Less pain today. Occasional dry cough and I’m watching my breathing closely. So far ok. It’s scary.
Husband is recovering faster than I am.
You probably won't have long-time immunity even if you contract COVID19, so how meaningful is "herd immunity?" There are reports of people being infected repeatedly.
It is possible that reinfections will be less severe than initial infections. We don't know yet.
ApatheticNoMore
7-19-20, 4:04pm
It's possible the reinfections will be more severe than the initial infections. Why? Already damaged organs. We don't know yet.
Although from what I've read the lack of all immunity seems less likely than that there will be some immunity. The problem is the death and disability total to get there regardless.
Us population: 329,968,629 confirmed cases 3,736,213, deaths 140,255. So let's round that up 1.2 % of the population infected. Let's say it's really more than double that, 3% due to lack of testing, to get to 70% you need 23 times more infected. Over 3 million deaths. Look one could say maybe 5% have been infected, then it's "ONLY" a bit shy of 2 million deaths. If I made a math error have at it, this was a quick post from quickly pulled population stats.
I don't regard claims of over 5% infected credible. I do know some argue it would take less than 70% for immunity, that's possible, we don't know yet. But be honest about the numbers we are risking, 2, 3 million deaths. Okily dokily?
rosarugosa
7-19-20, 4:44pm
I got an online invitation for a friend's "Backyard Birthday Bash" next weekend with "Food, Music and Fun!" I don't think so!
Using the common cold as a corona virus stand in, it seems entirely possible that people could be reinfected repeatedly.
I looked at graphs today of covid deaths in Utah and South Dakota, two states that did not impose restrictions. There are no big spikes. I think letting people use common sense and go places at their own risk is a good approach vs shutting things down, creating huge pent up demand, then when things reopen you have a surge.
https://cake.imgix.net/m/kCdmbGZmCrkV_1590177393214.jpeg
It's almost a month now since California's mask mandate and cases continue to surge there. When will people realize if it's not an N95 mask specially fitted to your face then a face covering is useless? Placebo effects can't stop this virus.
Of course blaming people for not wearing masks deflects attention from the failures in testing by the powers that be.
Almost 5 weeks now with a mask mandate in California and the situation there continues to deteriorate, making headlines again today. "The worst it has been since the pandemic began" per the LA Times article below. Epic failed policy to rely on masks.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-21/california-record-coronavirus-cases-deaths
ApatheticNoMore
7-21-20, 7:05pm
No public health expert calls for masks alone they call for other measures of the type yeppej also opposes (remember yeppej wanted to open things up).
How much of a difference wearing a mask makes:
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/21/893417180/scientists-study-how-much-a-difference-wearing-a-mask-makes
The states that are doing well are doing the opposite of anything yeppej recommends.
Of course. Who didn't see that coming. Doh.
I can't believe anyone thinks mandate means everyone follows it, especially in CA, where without massive outreach to many different communities it isn't going to happen anyway, and not so much of that as far as I've seen.
So called pent up demand on the economic side means economy returns to only part of what it was pre-corona even then and only for a month or so. I mean that's what the economic data tends to be. Now if there is a pent up demand for parties at people's houses or something, hmm ok, how would one ever get data on that, but that is really a very separate issue from economic opening it seems to me.
So Florida is too dangerous to have a political convention but safe enough for kids to go back to school. I guess we now have schrodinger’s virus.
dado potato
7-24-20, 10:45am
Utah reports 267 deaths due to coronavirus.
There was a "spike" in new cases on the dates 7/8/20 through 7/11/20, when the state reported over 1,000 per day. The President of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints wrote a letter to members dated 7/10/20 asking that they wear face masks in public, as a call to minister to one another.
The state government uses a color code to communicate to Utahans:
Green "lowest risk", applies in 10 Utah counties.
Yellow "low risk"
Orange "moderate risk"
Orange localities have restrictions based on public health concerns about the spread of COVID-19:
Maximum 20 persons in a social gathering.
Leave home infrequently.
Maintain social distance of at least 6 feet.
Wear face covering in public.
Limit out-of-state-travel.
In high contact businesses (such as barbers) strict protocols must be observed.
In restaurants take out is encouraged; extreme precautions are required for dining in restaurants.
In all workplaces: strict hygiene and social distancing.
At present, the town of Springfield and the counties of Salt Lake, Summit, and Grand are the Orange areas of Utah. I believe that areas which are now Yellow will be designated Orange, when (if) the 7-day moving average of new cases increases above a certain criterion.
Governor Herbert has been reluctant to mandate masks in public, but masks are mandatory for all who enter state-run facilities (such as liquor stores, DMV, Capitol Hill, etc.).
Most Utah residents are not without restrictions, considering all of the above.
http://coronavirus.utah.gov
Utah reports 267 deaths due to coronavirus.
There was a "spike" in new cases on the dates 7/8/20 through 7/11/20, when the state reported over 1,000 per day. The President of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints wrote a letter to members dated 7/10/20 asking that they wear face masks in public, as a call to minister to one another.
The state government uses a color code to communicate to Utahans:
Green "lowest risk", applies in 10 Utah counties.
Yellow "low risk"
Orange "moderate risk"
Orange localities have restrictions based on public health concerns about the spread of COVID-19:
Maximum 20 persons in a social gathering.
Leave home infrequently.
Maintain social distance of at least 6 feet.
Wear face covering in public.
Limit out-of-state-travel.
In high contact businesses (such as barbers) strict protocols must be observed.
In restaurants take out is encouraged; extreme precautions are required for dining in restaurants.
In all workplaces: strict hygiene and social distancing.
At present, the town of Springfield and the counties of Salt Lake, Summit, and Grand are the Orange areas of Utah. I believe that areas which are now Yellow will be designated Orange, when (if) the 7-day moving average of new cases increases above a certain criterion.
Governor Herbert has been reluctant to mandate masks in public, but masks are mandatory for all who enter state-run facilities (such as liquor stores, DMV, Capitol Hill, etc.).
Most Utah residents are not without restrictions, considering all of the above.
http://coronavirus.utah.gov
There are liquor stores in Utah? huh.
Interesting insights, tho.
ApatheticNoMore
7-24-20, 11:25am
I'm not sure I couldn't see an argument for not wearing masks and letting the thing get out of control so that we could FINALLY get our @#$# state and local government to DO SOMETHING.
Because at is now, they don't care if locally there are 2k cases a day and state wide over 10k. It means absolutely nothing to them that a ton of people are getting sick a day. 10% positivity and they are still BS-ing about opening schools (the unions will stop some of that). Maybe we need to overwhelm the hospital system in order to get them to take this seriously, and bring an end to the mass sickness because they finally get serious about controlling it.
Because meanwhile the northeast has this thing under much better control. And they got there by going through a crisis early on and then doing a strict long lockdown and then having contract tracing etc. etc.. Please don't tell me they got there by electing more and better Democrats, because California is unequivocally Dem dominated (well the Dems could be better ones).
We may never get there. How bad it was there, scared their governments into not being garbage and taking the actions they needed to take. But controlled burn through the population forever the government is perfectly fine with and if it kills MORE in the long run, la-de-da they just don't care.
How difficult would it have been to take precautions early, study countries who did it right, and follow suit?
Stupidity and arrogance are a bad combination.
dado potato
7-24-20, 1:05pm
There are liquor stores in Utah? huh.
Interesting insights, tho.
The liquor stores in Utah are operated by an agency of the state government.
Incidentally today they are all closed for State Holiday celebrating the 7/24/1847 entry of Brigham Young and the Mormon pioneers into the Salt Lake Valley.
“ I'm not sure I couldn't see an argument for not wearing masks and letting the thing get out of control so ...”
There’s so many negatives in that sentence that I can’t figure out which side you’re on. Ha!
ApatheticNoMore
7-24-20, 2:37pm
Tammy, wondering where you were, you must be getting better :)
Yea I'm pretty negative about the situation :~)
I'm on the side of controlling the spread of the virus and minimizing deaths but I don't think masks alone are going to make this go away (bring R below 1) and our politicians here seem to be content with what I see as an unacceptable status quo. They seem to have settled on a plan of letting 2.5k people get sick with this a day indefinitely as long as it doesn't increase well beyond that (and sometimes I'm not even sure if they care if it DOES increase well beyond that, I don't know why they are trying to get waivers to open up schools with 10% testing positivity).
And I see the northeast is doing better (for the time being, I know things can change), and I wonder why we can't do likewise. Maybe because we didn't have a really bad period early on, and maybe we never will. But 2.5k people getting this every day, up to 12k a day statewide. Maybe those states with an early really bad crisis are actually better off in the end in terms of number of people getting sick from this, as their governments took it seriously.
I don't like that we have to learn the hard way, but we don't seem to learn the easy way, although I'm not even sure we would learn the hard way either.
My bf is currently more at risk than me because of his work situation and the coworker living with a confirmed covid case who is now in quarantine. Yes I saw my bf last weekend, but I am now quarantining from my bf temporarily >8) Gah.
I’m on day 16 of my covid experience. Most of the aches and pains are gone. I’m still sleeping 16-18 hours a day. I can do one 10 minute something (a shower for example) and then I need to rest again. Other symptoms come and go also. As soon as I pronounce a symptom gone, it returns. So I guess only speak for the moment ...
mschrisgo2
7-24-20, 6:48pm
How difficult would it have been to take precautions early, study countries who did it right, and follow suit?
Stupidity and arrogance are a bad combination.
Sure is!
Tammy, thanks for the update.
rosarugosa
7-25-20, 7:22am
Tammy: I'm glad you are at least moving in the right direction. How id DH doing?
ANM: I think our state government has done a spectacular job, but it amazes me to see so much hatred directed at our governor for trying to keep us alive and make the virus go away.
happystuff
7-25-20, 11:21am
Tammy, hope you get to the point soon where symptoms go away and STAY away!
Tammy: I'm glad you are at least moving in the right direction. How id DH doing?
ANM: I think our state government has done a spectacular job, but it amazes me to see so much hatred directed at our governor for trying to keep us alive and make the virus go away.
That's mystifying and appalling to me, too--this irrational and sometimes violent response to temporary common-sense restrictions.
RR the difference is probably that you are retired but other people still need to work and see their livelihoods in jeopardy.
RR the difference is probably that you are retired but other people still need to work and see their livelihoods in jeopardy.
Better-run nations addressed that with strict early shutdowns paired with stipends so workers weren't left to fend for themselves and businesses didn't have to shut down permanently.
ApatheticNoMore
7-25-20, 1:18pm
Bet the states in the U.S. that did a good job with the virus if they continue to, end up doing far better economically in the end. No that isn't California at this point obviously.
Bet the states in the U.S. that did a good job with the virus if they continue to, end up doing far better economically in the end. No that isn't California at this point obviously.
It's painfully obvious now that early and decisive shutdowns would have saved lives, businesses, and mounting frustration.
frugal-one
7-25-20, 3:34pm
Last week, a group of people in Australia were caught at a birthday party in violation of new lockdown orders amid a surge in COVID-19 cases.
Police issued fines to 16 people, totally more than $18,000. The fines might seem steep, but they serve a purpose in encouraging people who should know better to follow the rules and take the coronavirus pandemic seriously --- the article stated.
Can you imagine the outrage if that was done here? .. or it may make people think???
We have a lot of laws that seem unnecessary to me, but I follow them--and would expect a citation if I didn't--and they don't involve a deadly virus.
I'm convinced that nothing could make some people think...
We have a lot of laws that seem unnecessary to me, but I follow them--and would expect a citation if I didn't--and they don't involve a deadly virus.
I'm convinced that nothing could make some people think...I doubt it's against the law to go maskless in any democracy. It may violate a regulation but I don't think any democracy worthy of its name would prosecute it as a crime.
Husband recovered faster - it took him about a week.
I doubt it's against the law to go maskless in any democracy. It may violate a regulation but I don't think any democracy worthy of its name would prosecute it as a crime.
For much of our history public health authorities did indeed have police power.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2569983/
“The uncontrollable nature of epidemic diseases moved the Supreme Court to uphold such extreme measures on the basis of the defense of the common good.8 The communitarian philosophy underlying this approach was carried into later judicial holdings, further consolidating states' exercise of public health police power.”
I’m in Mackinaw City, MI in the Straits of Mackinac this weekend for a diving trip. Friday night friends from OH who were camping out had my dive buddy, his wife, and I for a BBQ. Social distancing maintained. No masks as we were outside. Tonight the three of us ate at a restaurant (Darrow’s). 50% capacity. Long wait to get in, even at 5pm. Lots of people in the area. Came across a very small wedding on the beach yesterday. Mackinac Bridge in the background. Maybe 20 guests. Got a lovely photo of them with the bridge in the background. Got the pic to the bride’s mom as it was a good one. They had some snacks on the beach (it’s a park) afterward. Very nice.
ToomuchStuff
7-26-20, 9:29am
Thanks for the laughs, as I read above "no masks on a diving trip". Must be really good at holding your breath.:laff:
Then the thought of the three of you, wearing your diving gear to the restaurant.
Thanks for the laughs, as I read above "no masks on a diving trip". Must be really good at holding your breath.:laff:
Then the thought of the three of you, wearing your diving gear to the restaurant.
Haha. Glad to amuse you! :D
Just got home. Drove through the UP of Michigan and WI for the drive home. On the way there I went through IN and then MI. Just shy of 1000 miles in 48 hours for two dives. We were cancelled today due to bad storms, so I came home today instead of tomorrow. Dives were fabulous.
Saw most people wearing masks. A few without. A few wearing them incorrectly. But mostly wearing them.
That sounds like a lovely Michigan wedding, Tradd, and they will treasure that photo.
gimmethesimplelife
7-29-20, 11:53am
I understand pulling back from the covid news cycle. It’s overwhelming on a good day.
I’m on day 10-11 depending on how I interpret early symptoms. I continue with extreme fatigue. Less pain today. Occasional dry cough and I’m watching my breathing closely. So far ok. It’s scary.
Husband is recovering faster than I am.Prayers for a quick recovery, Tammy. I'm sorry I'm just now seeing this. Hang in there - this blasted virus really is doing a number on Arizona. So much for sunlight and Summer making the virus go away - especially with the nonsoon we are having and the more intense than usual heat we are having this Summer. Feel better!!! Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-29-20, 11:55am
There are liquor stores in Utah? huh.
Interesting insights, tho.Yep.....they are run by the State. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-29-20, 11:58am
Tammy, hope you get to the point soon where symptoms go away and STAY away!I strongly second this! Rob
ApatheticNoMore
7-29-20, 12:00pm
Not only did bf and his coworkers test negative, but even the coworker of his LIVING WITH a coronavirus positive tested negative and has been staying home for awhile. So that workplace is spared the coronavirus for now it seems, despite it being close at hand, and I'm no longer quarantining from my bf. They do 6 feet distancing and masks and stuff anyway but we have significant community spread so practices alone can only reduce risk so much, with so much coronavirus out there and it being able to travel in the air.
Not only did bf and his coworkers test negative, but even the coworker of his LIVING WITH a coronavirus positive tested negative and has been staying home for awhile. So that workplace is spared the coronavirus for now it seems, despite it being close at hand, and I'm no longer quarantining from my bf. They do 6 feet distancing and masks and stuff anyway but we have significant community spread so practices alone can only reduce risk so much, with so much coronavirus out there and it being able to travel in the air.
That's good news, proving to me that masks and distancing work.
Almost 5 weeks now with a mask mandate in California and the situation there continues to deteriorate, making headlines again today. "The worst it has been since the pandemic began" per the LA Times article below. Epic failed policy to rely on masks.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-21/california-record-coronavirus-cases-deaths
California hit another record today. Obviously masks aren't helping, and maybe they are even hurting. The people who struggle to breathe the most when wearing masks are also the people at highest risk of covid due to underlying respiratory conditions. Exacerbating their breathing difficulties by making them wear masks in hot weather is cruel and unusual punishment.
California hit another record today. Obviously masks aren't helping, and maybe they are even hurting. The people who struggle to breathe the most when wearing masks are also the people at highest risk of covid due to underlying respiratory conditions. Exacerbating their breathing difficulties by making them wear masks in hot weather is cruel and unusual punishment.
Actually it's the re-opening that's not working. San Francisco never re-opened indoor dining and our daily case count remains stable, with 52, 42 and 31 for the last 3 days. Orange County, on the other hand, reopened them mid-June and had 646 cases today. They have 4x the population but 10x the new daily cases.
If people have respiratory issues unfortunately they just need to stay home because too many selfish people like Louie Gohmert refuse to take precautions like wearing masks to keep others safe.
I've seen video of a doctor wearing six masks simultaneously and demonstrating that his oxygen saturation remained stable at 99 percent. I saw an article about another doctor who ran an entire race wearing one. I have a hard time believing anyone's breathing is impaired by one. People with sensory or anxiety issues are a different matter.
I do not have any respiratory issues but I can get faint and dizzy wearing a mask when it is hot and humid.
ApatheticNoMore
7-29-20, 9:11pm
Actually it's the re-opening that's not working.
+10,000
The errors in reasoning going on are basic, but:
1) Compliance. You can mandate masks all you want and it's great if this improves mask wearing in public places, that is reason enough to favor a mandate period. But if people have house parties without masks noone is enforcing it, if employers are letting people not wear masks especially in indoor jobs that's illegal and a problem (probably more low wage jobs where this happens), if people are living in extremely crowded conditions and not wearing masks at home it can be a problem too.
2) Even with perfect compliance, people wear masks at house parties, masks are not 100% effective. That masks are not 100% effective is being used to argue that masks are 0% effective is a real reasoning error. Black and white, all or nothing thinking.
In order to prove that masks aren't helping you would need some alternate California where noone was wearing masks and there were no laws to wear masks and show "no difference in cases". This doesn't exist. The states that are doing well in comparison to California pretty much all require masks and have weeks before California did. But it wasn't the only policy. I think there is some straw manning going on that many people advocate masks as the ONLY policy. Hint: if politicians do this follow the money, and if Trump admin does it just ignore it, but public health advocates mostly don't, politicians being rather corruptible, well that's not news.
San Francisco never re-opened indoor dining and our daily case count remains stable, with 52, 42 and 31 for the last 3 days. Orange County, on the other hand, reopened them mid-June and had 646 cases today. They have 4x the population but 10x the new daily cases.
L.A. county is reporting near 5k cases today (that includes backlog so average is more like 2-3k). Restaurants were opened end of May. They are planning on 15% of people to have got it by December. The number of people who got it in NYC in the peak was only 20% or so based on what we hear about antibodies. Yes if it's spread out in time it won't overwhelm hospitals. But they WANT to infect 15%, that is literally THE PLAN.
California hit another record today. Obviously masks aren't helping, and maybe they are even hurting.
No.
L.A. county is reporting near 5k cases today (that includes backlog so average is more like 2-3k). Restaurants were opened end of May. They are planning on 15% of people to have got it by December. The number of people who got it in NYC in the peak was only 20% or so based on what we hear about antibodies. Yes if it's spread out in time it won't overwhelm hospitals. But they WANT to infect 15%, that is literally THE PLAN.
That is INSANE. LA county is 10x SF county. We've never had anywhere near 500 cases in one day. With multiple vaccines showing lots of promise and moving steadily through the testing pipeline I will gladly wait this out at home and limited exposure to the outside world. I realize that I am incredibly fortunate to have that option.
And once schools reopen case counts everywhere they do will explode. We can't keep baseball players safe, we can't keep Louie Gohmert's staff (and possibly Bill Barr who was canoodling with him yesterday) safe (since everyone was forced to come to the office every day and not wear masks and now he has it), do we really think students are somehow magically going to be safe?
I saw on the news last night that due to covid economic shutdowns the number of people starving to death in the Third World is expected to double. Children will be most affected. So the privileged in First World countries have decided to protect their elderly (average age for someone who dies of covid is in their eighties) by sacrificing the younger generation elsewhere.
I was also thinking that many of those dying now would not have been alive in 1918 at the age and with the health conditions they have. Due to advances in medicine people with comorbidities are living longer, and we expect them to be able to live closer and closer to forever.
iris lilies
7-30-20, 7:17am
I do not have any respiratory issues but I can get faint and dizzy wearing a mask when it is hot and humid.
NPR‘s fresh air show had a interview with an ESPN broadcaster who covers baseball. He said he’s worn a mask when playing games and it’s tough. He said then add in high humidity heat, in St. Louis for instance and you’re talking about a very real restriction.
Again, if we had taken this seriously from the very beginning and shut everything down for a month or two, COVID19 would be behind us, as it is in New Zealand.
Opening everything up would only result in ongoing waves of illness, potentially forever--since there's no evidence of lasting immunity--with significant deaths in all age groups. Not my idea of success.
iris lilies
7-30-20, 11:14am
Again, if we had taken this seriously from the very beginning and shut everything down for a month or two, COVID19 would be behind us, as it is in New Zealand.
Opening everything up would only result in ongoing waves of illness, potentially forever--since there's no evidence of lasting immunity--with significant deaths in all age groups. Not my idea of success.
New Zealand isn’t letting in furrinurs.I would hardly think of that as being back to normal. They are also very protective of their little Kiwi paradise by not letting in plants. That is affecting their ability to hybridize effectively.
When Trump shut out Chinamen which seemed like a rational first effort to me in the atmosphere of knowing very little about this virus, hue and cry took place.Xenophic that was.
edited to make sense.
If we got it under control, we could consider normalizing at that point.
New Zealand will likely keep an eye on international infection levels, and act accordingly.
Our response has been pathetic.
Teacher Terry
7-30-20, 1:56pm
More young people are dying from the virus not just the expendable old.
I’m on day 22. This is a VERY gradual recovery. I’m so glad to be home this whole time. And glad that I’ve got several months of sick time accrued. FMLA is only valuable if one has the pay to cover the time.
I’m still sleeping 12-15 hours a day and resting most of my waking hours. I decide to do one thing (ie: put the laundry in and add detergent) and then I need to sit down for a while. Unbelievable.
Hope your healing goes well Tammy!
happystuff
7-30-20, 5:50pm
Wishing you continued healing, Tammy.
I got a jury summons today for October. Nothing like cramming me and a bunch of other people in a stuffy room with no windows in the midst of a pandemic. I will talk to my boss tomorrow about whether that is a good time for me to go and get it over with or if I should postpone.
Teacher Terry
7-30-20, 6:07pm
Tammy, I hope you continue to heal.
Wishing you the best in recovery, Tammy.
Thanks! Just finished a telehealth visit with our nurse practitioner who is managing all of our employees with Covid. (We have about 4000 employees in our hospital system.) I’m off work through end of august. They are following a protocol that is ensuring we don’t return too soon. Trying to avoid any relapses.
Thanks for the update, Tammy! Hope you’re feeling better very soon!
Having the month of August to recuperate and not having to worry about works sounds perfect. I hope you continue to heal.
We're all pulling for you, Tammy. Feel better soon! Glad you don't have to worry about things you shouldn't have to.
catherine
7-31-20, 11:56am
Rest and be well, Tammy! Glad to hear you're off for a bit!
happystuff
7-31-20, 2:41pm
So glad to hear that your workplace is making this as easy as possible for you to recover. Continued healing wishes going out to you.
I heard on the radio today New Zealand has gone months with no new domestic cases, no mask mandates or advisories, and no social distancing or curfews. Bars are open and you can dance as close to others in clubs as you want.
They banned anyone from other countries from coming in. So the US didn't go far enough fast enough with international travel restrictions.
I am starting to think xenophobia aka living locally is the answer. A lot of the international interconnectedness that neoliberals and neoconservatives espouse with their trade agreements and wars just benefits big multinational companies and spreads germs.
New Zealand also did a hard lockdown for 5 weeks, followed by a very cautious reopening for two more weeks. With decent coordinated leadership we could have done the same. And still could for that matter. But we won't.
Heard on the news this morning that Navy Pier, the biggest tourist attraction in Chicago, might shut down. Didn’t open until sometime in June and they’re $20 million in the hole. The big Ferris wheel is still closed.
How it's done when you have an unexpected flare-up:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/08/11/new-zealand-goes-back-into-lockdown-amid-first-covid-19-cases-in-102-days/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie%2F&fbclid=IwAR1QLHt_J2oaNLMfOWt7cJ3gM4tzr62z4NptPU4xJ r9IbFBgzUm0axdx01c#2aae421e5c26
ApatheticNoMore
8-11-20, 1:20pm
New Zealand also did a hard lockdown for 5 weeks, followed by a very cautious reopening for two more weeks. With decent coordinated leadership we could have done the same. And still could for that matter. But we won't.
Yea, restrictions on international travel are necessary but unless you have a strategy to control the virus in your own country only so useful. New Zealand did. The U.S. doesn't. They have a female social democratic leader (she's really beyond awesome on many things - no we can't get it that good - study her for what good leadership would look like). We have Trump.
I was more a proponent of living locally, maybe I still believe in shopping locally, but I've decided I might actually like to visit somewhere like New Zealand, just to see what it's like in a county that's not an un-developing 3rd worldizing kleptocracy.
Yea, restrictions on international travel are necessary but unless you have a strategy to control the virus in your own country only so useful. New Zealand did. The U.S. doesn't. They have a female social democratic leader (she's really beyond awesome on many things - no we can't get it that good - study her for what good leadership would look like). We have Trump.
I was more a proponent of living locally, maybe I still believe in shopping locally, but I've decided I might actually like to visit somewhere like New Zealand, just to see what it's like in a county that's not an un-developing 3rd worldizing kleptocracy.
That sums it up well. Surely, we'd be the laughing stock of the world if we didn't have nukes.
I bought a couple of neck gaiters today. If you wet them they are cooler than a mask. If it is warm on my vacation time I can wear them. I think the state should be providing face coverings rather thrusting an unfunded mandate on the people, so I purchased the covering that experts say may do more harm than good. Not that this will teach the tyrants, but it may make me more comfortable and give me a sense of satisfaction.
frugal-one
8-16-20, 3:06pm
I bought a couple of neck gaiters today. If you wet them they are cooler than a mask. If it is warm on my vacation time I can wear them. I think the state should be providing face coverings rather thrusting an unfunded mandate on the people, so I purchased the covering that experts say may do more harm than good. Not that this will teach the tyrants, but it may make me more comfortable and give me a sense of satisfaction.
smart
dado potato
8-16-20, 4:47pm
((Tammy))
I hope the long haul brings you health and wholeness.
Sending you plump sweet juicy virtual blueberries from the high bushes!
Be well.
My first ventures into mask were a neck gator and some N95 masks that were out in the garage but have the exhalation valve. Now both of those are not recommended. Then I bought some masks from Adidas that are supposed to be good for exercise. They don't have the metal piece to mold around the nose and cause my sunglasses to fog up. I just ordered one of the Beau Ties off Amazon (thanks for the suggestion) thinking I would like the nose piece and adjustable ear straps. I expect masks are here to stay and don't mind a little trial and error. Not into the disposables being a hopeless environmentalist, but I suspect in the big scheme of things it's not that important.
And...best wishes Tammy!
I have already gone through two masks - straps wore out on one and the other was white and got stained. This is getting really old.
rosarugosa
8-17-20, 5:57am
This is the mask company we have used: https://www.shopprefix.com/products/nightingale-mask
Their masks are sturdy and have stood up to many wearings and washings. They do have the metal strip that is so essential for those of us who wear glasses.
Teacher Terry
8-17-20, 12:51pm
I have 10 I can rotate. Only one had the elastic wear out.
I continue to take in news and in the past 24 hours I have heard of large numbers of false positives in both Massachusetts and Connecticut. I also heard that 40% of deaths are in nursing homes although only 1% of the population lives in them. Meanwhile schools, designed for the young, continue to report numbers like due to 20 positive tests 1200 students and faculty are quarantining although in none of these cases are any of the 20 reported as having symptoms, being sick, being hospitalized or dying. How many of these cases are even real and not false positives?
Common sense seems to have fallen prey to paranoia. Let kids with immune problems and those living in multigenerational homes, or just those who are afraid, go to school virtually, but don't shut down the schools for flimsy reasons. I wonder in future years if we will look on this like we did the mass paranoia that started with Fells Acre Day Care. For those of you too young to remember, it was the start of hysteria about supposed sexual abuse in daycares that later turned out to be largely nonexistent. Charlatans hopped on the bandwagon convincing people they had been molested but suppressed the memories. Now we have a medical industrial complex selling bad tests with false positives to fuel the flames of anxiety and direct more and more of our economy towards their sector. We aren't even supposed to breathe freely anymore, but wear masks that trap our carbon dioxide around our faces because vents on masks are bad. It's disheartening.
My cousin's wife is a teacher in a small town in western Kansas. Population 4800. Last week that county had 27 cases. Today they have 69. And a greater than 10% positive test rate. In other words it's completely out of control and soon the infection rate will look like NYC during the worst time there. But not to worry. The county has a hospital with 18 beds/5 ICU... School is opening next week with no restrictions. Cousin's wife went to a teacher planning session yesterday and she and her co-teacher were the only ones caring enough to wear masks. CW lives in a neighboring county. If she catches it at work she will take it home to her family and everyone else she comes in contact with. Hopefully CW and her family will be smart enough to stay away from my elderly aunt/uncle who live nearby.
Teacher Terry
8-18-20, 12:37pm
Kids and younger people are dying. I guess you missed that Y.
Here’s info on COVID long haulers:
https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/615382/
I’m at 6 weeks and in no shape to return to work yet. I’m hoping I fully recover by month 3.
The hardest part for me is not doubting myself that I have ongoing fatigue and shortness of breath with exertion. I fall into the category of those who were raised to pull myself up by bootstraps, don’t be a whiner, push yourself, work hard ... “it’s all in your head”
I bought a pulse ox because it gives me objective data - helps with the self doubt.
I drop to 90-92% with exertion. But I have great improvement in other areas. Just not the fatigue and drop in pulse ox.
Teacher Terry
8-19-20, 11:09pm
Tammy that’s awful.
ApatheticNoMore
8-20-20, 1:03am
Oh yea if I ended up a covid long hauler (I'm trying to avoid ever getting covid of course) I would just try to have faith that my body would recover and rebuilt itself in due time. But yea you need to rest now, trying to push beyond what one can do is a sure path to things getting worse.
I’m so glad we were fiscally conservative - all of our adult life but especially this last decade. My career took off in 2010 but we continued to live at our prior level of consumption. Also I haven’t used sick time in a decade. So I have almost 6 months of paid time off if I need it, and we can stretch that income to last a year. And then we have savings also to get us through another 6-12 mo. I had a plan to retire in February 2026 and I still hope to return to work and do that. But wow are we lucky to have options if I’m not able to.
My heart breaks for people all over the world. If I hadn’t been able to double our income 10 years ago, we would only have a few months until we ran out of money.
happystuff
8-20-20, 7:22am
Tammy, I'm sorry for your struggle, but glad to hear there is improvement - albeit, slow.
I really think I would be among the dead if I got Covid-19. DH possibly as well. But then, as Y puts it - I'm old anyway and will die. >:(
My immune system has always been up to the task, but there are far too many variable outcomes surrounding this virus to mess around with it.
You sound like you're coming around Tammy, if gradually--I hope that continues, and you recover fully.
The poor people in California. I saw some of them being interviewed on the news. With the smoke in the air and the high temperatures wearing a mask is very oppressive. People are staying in dangerous places rather than go to shelters where they have to mask up. This is why one size fits all government mandates are stupid.
With the smoke in the air and the high temperatures wearing a mask is very oppressive.
Yes, when the particulate particle load in the air is high, wearing a mask to filter the air is just foolish.
That's why we always remove our masks when fighting the fires....
FFS
Here is an article written before the covid hysteria. It says N95 masks are good but of course you can't get those nowadays. It also mentions respirators while warning of their risks, including when wearing them in the heat.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/10/29/getty-kincade-fire-california-air-quality-respirators-surgical-masks/4095000002/
flowerseverywhere
8-21-20, 6:33pm
I’ve been listening to Munk Dialogues on youtube about what happens after coronavirus by the super smart people. Several presenters brought up the fact we may never get rid of Covid-19 and may just have to learn to live with it. There is no vaccine for AIDS or Ebola, but they are both under control.
as we destroy more animal habitat and further pollute the sir and streams, and then add in climate change and warming, we are setting the stage for poorer overall health and more interactions with animals and the diseases they can give to us.
Our failure in the US to have a good public Health care system that serves all has lead us down the path to leading the world in per capita deaths. We are very behind other industrialized countries in life expectancy and infant mortality. Incredibly sad for the richest country in the world.
For the second month in a row my state has the worst unemployment rate in the nation. Meanwhile the more lenient states have passed through their virus peaks - later than us but no worse adjusting for population.
happystuff
8-22-20, 8:56pm
I’ve been listening to Munk Dialogues on youtube about what happens after coronavirus by the super smart people. Several presenters brought up the fact we may never get rid of Covid-19 and may just have to learn to live with it. There is no vaccine for AIDS or Ebola, but they are both under control.
as we destroy more animal habitat and further pollute the sir and streams, and then add in climate change and warming, we are setting the stage for poorer overall health and more interactions with animals and the diseases they can give to us.
Our failure in the US to have a good public Health care system that serves all has lead us down the path to leading the world in per capita deaths. We are very behind other industrialized countries in life expectancy and infant mortality. Incredibly sad for the richest country in the world.
I so agree! Especially what is in bold above. The human race has really bought this on ourselves. I don't know if it is arrogance or stupidity that fails to recognize it. Sigh... cause and effect - we will reap the effects of our actions.
Here is a new take on fighting covid:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/mexico-ban-sale-junk-food-minors-coronavirus-obesity.html
Finally someone is focused on risk factors, though I think a public health campaign would be better than a ban, which could just drive the behavior underground a la Prohibition.
ApatheticNoMore
8-23-20, 11:22am
It's also of course like so much else, not necessarily aligned with the latest research. Being overweight is shown to be a risk factor for coronavirus in younger *men*. It has not been shown to be a risk factor in women. Of course men are more at risk for corona deaths in general.
So I really wish women concerned with losing 10 pounds to look good in a swimsuit or other clothes, would just admit it was about that, not really about "their health".
And I'm not sure any of it has any real link to becoming a long hauler which seems to affect women more (risk factors for being a long hauler may not even be known, seems to hit basically healthy people, but it does hit women more maybe because they have stronger immune response).
And it's really trying to solve an immediate crisis (the pandemic) with measures that might have some long term impact mostly on other health problems, not coronavirus.
I heard on the radio today of a confirmed case of a person being infected by covid twice, the first time in China and the second time after he travelled to Europe. These were two different strains of covid. I think we need to ban all international travel because as the virus evolves new strains will pop up around the world that no one here has immunity against.
IL (and Chicago) are putting businesses in between a rock and a hard place. They are fining businesses for customers not wearing masks/not enforcing the mask order. However, there are no fines for individuals refusing to wear masks. The businesses are risking their employees getting in confrontations with customers for pointing out no masks being worn.
I’m not saying people should be fined for not wearing masks, but what worker is going to want to risk physical confrontation enforcing the mask order? We’ve heard of plenty of those.
Tradd our managers get a management newsletter. Yesterday's issue had a story that managers trained in de-escalation tactics not front line employees should be enforcing mask mandates, but most places it is the opposite.
A guy at work was telling me once we have a vaccine people will be getting sick with other illnesses because the masks have blocked incoming germs and weakened their immune systems. They have lost the ability to fight off germs. This sounds like a corollary of the hygiene hypothesis.
A guy at work the other day was telling me something different, but he's just an infectious disease control doctor from U.W., so he probably doesn't know anything.
frugal-one
8-27-20, 3:12pm
A guy at work was telling me once we have a vaccine people will be getting sick with other illnesses because the masks have blocked incoming germs and weakened their immune systems. They have lost the ability to fight off germs. This sounds like a corollary of the hygiene hypothesis.
And, you believe everything "a guy" at work tells you. From what you have relayed previously, you should not trust anything they say or do.
Teacher Terry
8-27-20, 3:17pm
Y, your work mates are idiots!
iris lilies
8-28-20, 2:55pm
IL (and Chicago) are putting businesses in between a rock and a hard place. They are fining businesses for customers not wearing masks/not enforcing the mask order. However, there are no fines for individuals refusing to wear masks. The businesses are risking their employees getting in confrontations with customers for pointing out no masks being worn.
I’m not saying people should be fined for not wearing masks, but what worker is going to want to risk physical confrontation enforcing the mask order? We’ve heard of plenty of those.
My city is also putting business between a rock and a hard place. It is requiring bars to close earlier than usual. Meanwhile, private companies are putting together party buses where they are serving drinks and driving around down town in front of those same bars late past closing. So the good Doobie bar owners sit and watch their business going to somebody else who is unregulated. What a shit show.
The party buses are often shut down here.
A customer called in complaining staff were not wearing masks yesterday and someone did a curbside delivery for him. Now we will see if we get another Board of Health complaint. He said he was not comfortable coming in because he is 72. I wondered why he doesn't retire if he is that concerned.
A customer called in complaining staff were not wearing masks yesterday and someone did a curbside delivery for him. Now we will see if we get another Board of Health complaint. He said he was not comfortable coming in because he is 72. I wondered why he doesn't retire if he is that concerned.
What makes you think he's not retired?
And even so, what makes you think a 72 year old should be retired just because he's cautious about his health when shopping at big box stores? What does one thing have to do with the other? Just curious.
What makes you think he's not retired?
And even so, what makes you think a 72 year old should be retired just because he's cautious about his health when shopping at big box stores? What does one thing have to do with the other? Just curious.
Actually I get where she’s coming from. I personally know people who are over 70 and were still working. They were freaking about going into work (and other public places) so much and they finally retired.
I do not work at a big box store. I work at a wholesaler for contractors, who are going into people's homes or businesses, and often have employees. We are by no means the only source of their risk. One guy comes in pushing a walker, is elderly, overweight, and looks like he's on death's doorstep. Even if you believe masks work against droplets, they don't stop fine particles. You can't take it with you, is it worth dying for money?
I do not work at a big box store. I work at a wholesaler for contractors, who are going into people's homes or businesses, and often have employees. We are by no means the only source of their risk. One guy comes in pushing a walker, is elderly, overweight, and looks like he's on death's doorstep. Even if you believe masks work against droplets, they don't stop fine particles. You can't take it with you, is it worth dying for money?
Got it. Maybe I'm just sensitive, being 68 and still working and don't want to feel I don't have a right to. But I am lucky enough to be able to work from home and do telephone interview and/or write reports. No one has asked me to travel for business this year.
But I do go to stores on occasion, wearing my mask and keeping my distance, and my days of "window shopping" are over. I only go when I'm on a mission.
We deliver to the jobsite at no extra charge and have curbside delivery. No one has to come into the store. That being said employees should be following the law so we don't get shut down.
There are big protests in Europe now against masks and a "health dictatorship". Americans who dare to challenge the status quo are not alone.
There have been discussions lately in the media about the folly of "herd immunity," and how that is basically just eugenics, because if we have a free for all, all the immuno-compromised, old, sick, and people with the bad luck to have some other unrecognized co-factor will just die off. The concept of herd immunity is also puzzling to me because there's no indication the limited immunity immediately following infection lasts more than a few weeks or months. Sweden is a great example of how not to handle a pandemic, having much worse morbidity and mortality statistics than comparable countries. I guess mass infection is the new "plan" emanating from the great scientific minds at the White House. Thank heavens for eBooks and grocery delivery; I'm good.
And now we learn that mask wearing also benefits the wearer. Multiple studies have found that being infected with a smaller amount of virus can lead to a less severe case of covid. And that a cloth mask does a good job of stopping at least some of the virus from getting inhaled.
https://youtu.be/DANEqOPcDwc
My county had a peaceful "Stop the Covid Chaos" rally attended by thousands and little social distancing or mask wearing. By county Covid restrictions this was an illegal gathering, but it doesn't look like there will be any repercussions. One was quoted to say something like, Covid is a concern but shouldn't be so restrictive as to hinder people's lives.
One was quoted to say something like, Covid is a concern but shouldn't be so restrictive as to hinder people's lives.
I guess "threaten people's lives" is okay, but better not "hinder". LOL.
Although Donald Trump has named himself a wartime president, I think covid is not the same as something like World War II. My mother was born in Germany in 1940. She didn't miss having a father - no one had them. An entire generation of men was wiped out. There was large-scale loss of life, not only from battles but from the Holocaust, which killed 90+% of Jews in many villages along with many in other targeted populations.
Covid has a mortality rate of around 1%. To me there is no comparison, yet we have now run up a larger deficit responding to it than any time since World War II. The US was in World War II four years, but in Covid five months now. I am very fearful for the future of the next generation - saddled with huge deficits, giant student loans, a growing number of elderly people to support per worker, and facing a disproportionate share of the covid layoffs, all to protect mainly people who are retired and could stay home if they wanted to, there being many volunteers willing to bring them supplies for the duration.
Covid losers are definitely the young. Our country is now a gerontocracy.
Teacher Terry
9-3-20, 1:24pm
I feel sorry for the 180,000 people who have died and many more will follow.
ApatheticNoMore
9-3-20, 1:31pm
Kill yourself yeppej aren't you like 50 something, gah that's older than dirt, isn't it time for you to die? You've lived long enough, kill yourself make room from someone younger and hopefully nicer. 40 is probably lived long enough already, it's enough to reproduce, and after that it's just taking up space, right?
What about the young? Well what about the young, what kind of society are we bringing them into if the old are disposable? A garbage society, one in which one SHOULD NOT bring kids into, a society that treats the vulnerable as disposable. What kind of world is that to bring kids into? Maybe that's why birth rates are down, noone thinks this society is a decent one to raise kids in.
By the way anyone who thinks the largely fictional national debt is a larger threat to the young than the very real environmental damage has drunk way too much right wing propaganda. But that's yeppej for you.
Oddly, COVID is not nearly as much of a problem in other parts of the world. Could it be our half-hearted response?
"By the way anyone who thinks the largely fictional national debt is a larger threat to the young than the very real environmental damage has drunk way too much right wing propaganda. But that's yeppej for you." I couldn't agree more with this statement. "Property, sacrosanct; human lives, disposable" seems to be the Republican standard these days.
[QUOTE=Yppej;362017]To me there is no comparison, yet we have now run up a larger deficit responding to it than any time since World War II. The US was in World War II four years, but in Covid five months now. I am very fearful for the future of the next generation - saddled with huge deficits, giant student loans, a growing number of elderly people to support per worker, and facing a disproportionate share of the covid layoffs, all to protect mainly people who are retired and could stay home if they wanted to, there being many volunteers willing to bring them supplies for the duration.QUOTE]
I suspect if you are basing your argument on Covid causing a huge national debt, it is probably misplaced. Our national debt is a product of long term excess spending and historically low taxes. Covid has just piled a couple more sticks on the camel's back.
[QUOTE=Yppej;362017]To me there is no comparison, yet we have now run up a larger deficit responding to it than any time since World War II. The US was in World War II four years, but in Covid five months now. I am very fearful for the future of the next generation - saddled with huge deficits, giant student loans, a growing number of elderly people to support per worker, and facing a disproportionate share of the covid layoffs, all to protect mainly people who are retired and could stay home if they wanted to, there being many volunteers willing to bring them supplies for the duration.QUOTE]
I suspect if you are basing your argument on Covid causing a huge national debt, it is probably misplaced. Our national debt is a product of long term excess spending and historically low taxes. Covid has just piled a couple more sticks on the camel's back.
Our federal tax rate, combined as it is with a doily of loopholes, is a national disgrace.
The COVID19 death rate in the US is 3.3%, according to this source: https://epidemic-stats.com/
I've not seen lingering morbidity figures, but that's another factor.
ETA; Seasonal flu death rate is said to be "a fraction of 1%."
[QUOTE=Yppej;362017]To me there is no comparison, yet we have now run up a larger deficit responding to it than any time since World War II. The US was in World War II four years, but in Covid five months now. I am very fearful for the future of the next generation - saddled with huge deficits, giant student loans, a growing number of elderly people to support per worker, and facing a disproportionate share of the covid layoffs, all to protect mainly people who are retired and could stay home if they wanted to, there being many volunteers willing to bring them supplies for the duration.QUOTE]
I suspect if you are basing your argument on Covid causing a huge national debt, it is probably misplaced. Our national debt is a product of long term excess spending and historically low taxes. Covid has just piled a couple more sticks on the camel's back.
Yes, it was bad before, but not this bad. And we are setting a precedent, with every bad virus out of China this will be the new norm. This is not the way we handled SARS or other malevolent viruses. Since we cannot eliminate the root cause - China's encroachment on wildlife habitat and their abuse of animals in crowded unsanitary conditions - I can see us getting hit with more trillion dollar virus bailouts before we ever pay for this one, spiralling downwards into national bankruptcy.
The COVID19 death rate in the US is 3.3%, according to this source: https://epidemic-stats.com/
I've not seen lingering morbidity figures, but that's another factor.
It's only that high because we test so few people, missing many who are asymptomatic or have symptoms so mild they do not seek medical attention.
ApatheticNoMore
9-3-20, 2:39pm
Yea the truth is noone actually knows what the fatality rate is.
3.3% strikes me as about right for diagnosed cases, maybe this is what is called case fatality rate, but as we all know many cases are never formally diagnosed with a test. I mean if one is diagnosed with covid one's chances suddenly get much bleaker seems to me.
On the national debt figures is it inflation adjusted, and isn't as percentage of GDP perhaps relevant? And this despite it not being all that relevant a measure of much anyway. All for some money that was funneled in unauditable way to who knows what Trump cronies, I mean there was no accountability for the money. How is it that Canada was able to give people 2k a month? Oh right it's not a 3rd world country, I forgot.
I think it's a real shame that we can't talk to each other here without sarcasm and viciousness. This forum is a place where many come for community and comfort, especially in a crisis such as the pandemic.
30% of professional athletes with Covid have lingering cardiac irregularities.
I know a lot of people here like sarcasm. I am probably in the minority. It comes from the Greek word, to tear flesh.
That is not how I want to speak to others, or to be spoken to. It's probably because I realize I have limited time left on earth, and I want to choose how I spend it. I want to feel good about my communications. I want to be at peace with others, and at peace with myself.
Thanks for considering my point of view.
I know a lot of people here like sarcasm. I am probably in the minority. It comes from the Greek word, to tear flesh.
That is not how I want to speak to others, or to be spoken to. It's probably because I realize I have limited time left on earth, and I want to choose how I spend it. I want to feel good about my communications. I want to be at peace with others, and at peace with myself.
Thanks for considering my point of view.
I actually sincerely agree with you. I definitely have to do a better job of controlling my own responses. I guess I add this thread to the "avoid" list along with the Politics forum.
iris lilies
9-4-20, 6:45pm
Omg, my neighbors across the street in Hermann all have COVID19. HermanN started getting hammered by the virus two or three weeks ago.
But these neighbors were super careful for months. They have four daughters ranging in age from about 15 to about 23. Of those four kids, three have health problems and so they just reigned in Their activities starting in mid March. The father of the house is our architect. We would see him having his meetings with contractors on his front porch sitting 6 feet apart. Outside. His girls are very popular in high school and college and their friends would come by and stand in the street and talk to them while the girls were on the front porch. One of the girls had a birthday in May and her high school friends came and serenaded her Outdoors ( no masks!) while she was inside the whole time. The parents were pretty strict about what the girls could do.
They just got test confirmation yesterday.
I still don’t directly know anyone who has gotten it - someone who is a friend, not a friend/relative of a friend who has it.
A friend's young neighbor--20ish--just died of it. I mentioned before that her friend has the chronic version. They need to be careful, because her husband has a congenital clotting disorder.
Everyone thinks they're being careful even if they're not. A customer went from our state (less than 1% positive rate) went to South Carolina on vacation with his family and did not quarantine upon return as required by state law. He said he was safe because they stayed in a camper instead of a hotel although they were also out and about and he said people were mocking those who wear masks and take other precautions.
Teacher Terry
9-4-20, 7:47pm
Jane, how sad to lose someone so young. As kids and young people get it others will start to take it more seriously. IL, it only takes one exposure and it could have even been the grocery store. Hope they all do well.
I still don’t directly know anyone who has gotten it - someone who is a friend, not a friend/relative of a friend who has it.Neither my wife or I personally know anyone with it either, no friend, relative or acquaintance.
I have two relatives who had it. They are seniors, he worked in medicine part-time, and after being hospitalized both survived with no loss of quality of life, and ready to take on helping out with their grandkids so their parents can return to work.
Teacher Terry
9-4-20, 11:49pm
My DIL’s 5 relatives all had it in March and are still having issues. They range in age from 70-17.
I now know five people who've had it. 3 middle aged folks who had serious ugly cases but have mostly recovered, 1 moderate case, and one who only lost sense of smell and taste. the last one though is now having severe fatigue. SO and I will continue to try and avoid interacting with anyone that will put us at risk. And will continue to WEAR A MASK. There are enough likely effective vaccines out there that I hope that by this time next year this will be mostly over. Since SO is a cancer survivor a vaccine, and not getting infected in the meantime, is our only hope.
I know about a dozen people who have had covid - not from work but from my personal life. 2 have died. A man aged 38 and a man aged ~70.
ApatheticNoMore
9-5-20, 1:09am
I know two people who know someone who died from it. Those who died was one man in their early 40s, and one 59 year old man.
ApatheticNoMore
9-5-20, 1:27am
I just find the idea that seniors should be hiding in their houses (and that's the polite version I'm sure some may think they should just die) because of coronavirus, like they had no right to a life as well, abhorrent. A society that doesn't care about it's old is no kind of society (don't confuse this with taking heroic measures at end of life, I mean people dying well before their time due to the pandemic). There was an article about a depressed senior who relies on social contact to avoid depression sneaking out. In a way good for them (at least if there is no strict lockdown but people are just lecturing seniors), but shame on policy for not controlling this pandemic better.
Many seniors are of course hiding from the world, well yea so is my middle aged self as well pretty much, mostly hiding, but this is because of failure in handling the virus, not some kind of how things should be. I mean I do the necessary errands of course and other than that I stay a lot at home, and noone but bf sees me without a mask!
There has been a lot in the news the last day or so about the privately owned frat houses at Indiana University refusing to shut down. A number of them are under county quarantine orders. At least one had a 90% positive test rate among the students living there.
I also heard that another school had suspended at least one fraternity for 3-4 years because it refused to stop having parties.
And one school on the east coast is going to start fining students who break the rules.
The young folks are a big problem. In Chicago, there are constant reports of large parties in black neighborhoods. Their community is getting hit quite hard and the young folks just keep on with their big parties.
The worst part about all the colleges with major infection rates is that they will likely shut down and send everyone home. And the germy kids will spread the disease far and wide both on the way and after they are there.
A college student who belongs to my church was sent home from her college elsewhere in the Midwest due to high positive test rates. She was apparently quite the social butterfly at school and now that she’s back with her parents, she still won’t stay home. Our pastor has forbidden her to come to services until she’s self quarantined for 14 days and has a negative test at the end of those 14 days. A number of our seniors have just started coming back to church. No more than 30 are allowed in a service, chairs far apart, etc. She is refusing to do what’s necessary for her to be allowed back at services. She’s very blatant about her continued socializing. It’s all over social media. I’ve seen it myself.
Teacher Terry
9-5-20, 10:41am
The young girl probably doesn’t want to go to church so it’s one way for her parents not to be able to make her.
I do not know of anyone who's had COVID-19, at least officially. I know a number of people who believe they had it, as far back as last Thanksgiving, though none have been tested for antibodies (for however much confidence you can have in that test). I won't take every single thing the CDC has to say as gospel ("No one has to wear a mask" at the beginning of the pandemic) but I agree with their assessment that COVID-19 was not a presence in the U.S. until early this year. It's odd that none of these people claiming to have had COVID-19 had severe symptoms, given the averages we've seen for serious (ICU, "long hauler", etc.) illness since the pandemic was declared.
DW and I have been distancing as much as we can while stealing a few well-prepared opportunities for socialization before much cooler weather sets in (eating outside in our backyard, six feet apart, everyone with their own meals and utensils, masks when not eating, one bathroom reserved for guests).
Earlier this week a close relative passed away suddenly in DW's hometown (non-COVID-related). Of course, we went over there, masks and face shields and hand sanitizer at our sides. Of the maybe dozen or so people who've cycled through our relative's house while we've been there to pay their respects and help out, only about half wore masks for any amount of time. I can kind of understand the survivor family not wearing masks inside at home (though the two adult children no longer live there and we did anyway out of concern for ourselves and others). One of the visitors was reluctant to wear a mask indoors (but has in larger groups) and works in a dentist's office. And two -- a nurse and a hairdresser (!) -- showed up maskless and never put them on around us.
It boggles my mind that so many bubbles are overlapping and there seems to be no concern about spread. It's like people have gotten tired of masking up and being careful and have willed coronavirus out of their lives. Or they somehow believe that, if they know the people involved, it's OK to throw caution to the wind. I wish that were so. DW and I have been sitting out a few days of isolation since we went over there, just to help make sure we can go back and be helpful. Sometimes I wonder if we're being overcautious for nothing and that all we're giving up will be done in by some deluded soul who believes this is all a hoax. *sigh*
People keep comparing this to the flu. I have no fear of the flu whatsoever, but I'm very wary of this virus--which can attack lungs, kidneys, heart, brain, and/or circulatory system, and can last indefinitely. I have to believe that the maskless are either foolishly unaware of known risks, or are getting their news from Russian propaganda sites or their allies.
I do not know of anyone who's had COVID-19, at least officially. I know a number of people who believe they had it, as far back as last Thanksgiving, though none have been tested for antibodies (for however much confidence you can have in that test). My wife and I have a tradition now that the grandkids are older of going to the beach every year between Christmas and New Years. Last year we went to Huntington Beach South Carolina for 10 days and while we were there we developed what we thought was a severe case of the flu and marveled at the fact neither of our flu shots had helped us. By mid January we were better but once the Corona Virus became common knowledge we both wondered if that's what we had. Keeping that in mind, when my wife returned to school last week one of the other teachers told her that she and her husband had just tested positive for Covid antibodies and the only time they'd been sick was during the same time period as us, early January.
Now we're wondering if we should have the antibody test, just to see.
The young girl probably doesn’t want to go to church so it’s one way for her parents not to be able to make her.
She was always very active before she went away to school and when home on holidays and such. Fellow choir member. Member of the denomination’s college group.
My wife and I have a tradition now that the grandkids are older of going to the beach every year between Christmas and New Years. Last year we went to Huntington Beach South Carolina for 10 days and while we were there we developed what we thought was a severe case of the flu and marveled at the fact neither of our flu shots had helped us. By mid January we were better but once the Corona Virus became common knowledge we both wondered if that's what we had. Keeping that in mind, when my wife returned to school last week one of the other teachers told her that she and her husband had just tested positive for Covid antibodies and the only time they'd been sick was during the same time period as us, early January.
Now we're wondering if we should have the antibody test, just to see.
If you do I would be curious as to what you find out. We were both very sick with respiratory and fever back in March but had been nowhere, and it was not present here that was known, so we assumed it was not Covid. Now you just wonder, how long it's been around and how many people already have it.
I understand the immunity only lasts a few weeks or months (same as immunizations). Wouldn't that be shown in antibody tests?
I understand the immunity only lasts a few weeks or months (same as immunizations). Wouldn't that be shown in antibody tests?I don't know.
Teacher Terry
9-5-20, 12:41pm
My best friend said when flu season comes she may isolate again. Her husband works in a casino, her 3 grandchildren go to school and her daughter isn’t careful so not sure what the point is. She will want us to do the same but doubt we will do that.
iris lilies
9-5-20, 12:48pm
I mentioned that my friend had it in February before we all knew to take precautions.
She said she was super sick and in bed for several days and when it was over she had some weird stuff going on with her lungs. I remember her coming to sit down in our living room and saying she just been to doc in a box to check for pneumonia because she didn’t know what was going on with her lungs.
Several months later she got tested and she has the antibodies so she’s quite certain she had it. She traced the time of getting it and timing makes sense that it coincides with a hair salon appointment.Her hairdresser has clients several women who travel to Europe. Her hairdresser had also been sick with something around that time.
My friend is 65 years old has diabetes and all kinds of compromising health situations, but she’s made a full recovery.
...
My friend is 65 years old has diabetes and all kinds of compromising health situations, but she’s made a full recovery.
That's encouraging. I suspect I'd survive--as I've historically been pretty robust--but I have no desire to chance it. I have way too many books yet to read.
I talked to a woman on the phone recently that went dancing for her 74th birthday and didn't wear a mask. I asked her why she did not take precautions for the virus. Her response was she could take the "medicine" if she got sick. I asked what she was referring to and she said chloroquine. It is sad to see people listening to trump instead of the scientists and doctors. ... "the trump mentality" is staggering.
A college student who belongs to my church was sent home from her college elsewhere in the Midwest due to high positive test rates. She was apparently quite the social butterfly at school and now that she’s back with her parents, she still won’t stay home. Our pastor has forbidden her to come to services until she’s self quarantined for 14 days and has a negative test at the end of those 14 days. A number of our seniors have just started coming back to church. No more than 30 are allowed in a service, chairs far apart, etc. She is refusing to do what’s necessary for her to be allowed back at services. She’s very blatant about her continued socializing. It’s all over social media. I’ve seen it myself.
Unless the pastor forbids her parents as well, it won’t do any good. They are exposed to her and will bring it church if she has it.
I don't know.
No one knows for sure. And many people who had it don’t show antibodies after a few weeks, but they might have a T cell response if exposed again, which would confer immunity. A negative antibody test means little, but a positive test confirms that you had covid.
Unless the pastor forbids her parents as well, it won’t do any good. They are exposed to her and will bring it church if she has it.
The parents are staying home themselves.
No one knows for sure. And many people who had it don’t show antibodies after a few weeks, but they might have a T cell response if exposed again, which would confer immunity. A negative antibody test means little, but a positive test confirms that you had covid.
It's tough to know, and the unreliability of many antibody tests doesn't help.
DW and I and DD/DSiL had really persistent upper-respiratory infections in February. DD insists it was the coronavirus because colds don't usually knock her flat for 3-4 days like this one did. DW and I had the same bad cold but it didn't knock us down for several days; it just took forever to get over and I just assumed we were ping-ponging it back and forth for weeks. None of us had the classic symptoms. Maybe it was COVID-19; at that time, you didn't get a test unless you were on your way to a ventilator.
Sometimes I still feel like there's not much left in my tank, but I don't know if it's allergies being especially bad this year or that we didn't get the exercise we were used to because our activities stopped old in March. Since we're taking precautions, I don't know if it matters if we've had COVID-19 or haven't had it -- it's not like people can tell us right now with high specificity what it all means for now and the future. So we go on and act like we have it and could get it again. Seems the safest thing to do.
I may have had it in January but at this point I think I will never know. Any antibodies I may have had have probably faded by now. Tests were available but my doctor would not give them/order them.
early morning
9-6-20, 8:45am
Our DD who lives with us came back from attending/working a conference in Fla in mid March, tired and run-down. She just kept getting sicker and sicker - trouble breathing (and she is asthmatic), nausea, headaches, muscle aches, hives, and a nasty itchy rash on her legs... her doctor declined to test (or let her come to the office!) and just kept saying "if you can't breathe go to the ER, we can't do anything here". She is still not at 100%, all these months later. She finally got an antibody test last week, but nothing showed. Her current physician is sure she had covid, from the description of symptoms. DH and I did not have any symptoms, thankfully. However, we are continuing to proceed carefully, only going out masked, armed with sanitizer, and trying to stay away from others as much as possible.
ToomuchStuff
9-6-20, 9:48am
Former Royals player and an asbestos removal guy I know, both had it. Church that a few weeks ago, had a outdoor summer camp thing, where they had volleyball, and other outdoor activities, and brought in food trucks, made the news when 30 people tested positive. That is across the highway from work.
Since the one boss passed, and the other had their kidney's fail and started dialysis, I have only gone places I have to for work. I know one place I have to go soon (inspection on vehicle), has had two of their suppliers shut down due to testing positive (auto parts), and the asbestos worker I know, did an inspection there, so high risk.
I heard on the news - and believe these are US figures - 500,000 children have tested positive for covid and 103 have died, a mortality rate of .0002 percent among those tested. Even without factoring in all the untested children you see that this virus is not the big deal that those with a vested interest in hysteria, who want to keep the schools shut down, portray it to be.
I heard on the news - and believe these are US figures - 500,000 children have tested positive for covid and 103 have died, a mortality rate of .0002 percent among those tested. Even without factoring in all the untested children you see that this virus is not the big deal that those with a vested interest in hysteria, who want to keep the schools shut down, portray it to be.
Any dead child is a very, very big deal, Yppej. 103 children--my heart breaks hearing that.
iris lilies
9-8-20, 7:12pm
I heard on the news - and believe these are US figures - 500,000 children have tested positive for covid and 103 have died, a mortality rate of .0002 percent among those tested. Even without factoring in all the untested children you see that this virus is not the big deal that those with a vested interest in hysteria, who want to keep the schools shut down, portray it to be.
But the little germ factories bring it home to oldsters. A d the little germ factories are not reliable at washing hands and etc.
Any dead child is a very, very big deal, Yppej. 103 children--my heart breaks hearing that.
How many children do you think will die of starvation in the Third World because of the effects of the covid economic shutdowns? According to this article many more than have died of covid:
https://time.com/5864803/oxfam-hunger-covid-19/
They do not break down the deaths by age group but project 121 million people pushed to the brink of starvation, with 12,000 deaths per day. The peak global deaths per day for covid was 10,000 in April. And the economic devastation will last for years. It is not only in the US that every day businesses permanently close.
But the little germ factories bring it home to oldsters. A d the little germ factories are not reliable at washing hands and etc.
I believe there should be a remote option for everyone, but also an in person option.
Yppej, it's offensive to talk about the death of children as "no big deal."
Yppej, it's offensive to talk about the death of children as "no big deal."
Statistically it's not a big deal. It's nowhere near the leading causes of childhood death.
Say it is not a major health threat if you prefer that wording.
Should schools shut down because children might die in a car or bus accident on the way to school? That is much more likely. It's probably more likely they get shot and killed at school.
No one is saying let's put our country on lockdiown and tank the economy because too many children are dying of gunshot wounds in places like Chicago and St Louis. Yet children are more at risk from stray bullets if they leave their house than of covid if they leave their house.
So which children's lives are most valuable? I guess not those of the children in the Third World facing starvation due to covid hysteria, and not the lives of the inner city children domestically.
Statistically it's not a big deal. It's nowhere near the leading causes of childhood death.
Say it is not a major health threat if you prefer that wording.
Should schools shut down because children might die in a car or bus accident on the way to school? That is much more likely. It's probably more likely they get shot and killed at school.
No one is saying let's put our country on lockdiown and tank the economy because too many children are dying of gunshot wounds in places like Chicago and St Louis. Yet children are more at risk from stray bullets if they leave their house than of covid if they leave their house.
So which children's lives are most valuable? I guess not those of the children in the Third World facing starvation due to covid hysteria, and not the lives of the inner city children domestically.
And, how many of those children infected others?? You miss the point entirely.
And, how many of those children infected others?? You miss the point entirely.
Deliberately so.
I know one person who had it in Missouri, he is fine now. Don’t know anyone in Florida who has had it. I wear a mask when I go into a store as it is required, but other than that have not done much different. I still go out to eat once a week with a group of 5 guys. I’ve had various workers in my house for the last few months while it was being remodeled. I still golf and last weekend I took my son and his family out on the boat and we went to the beach.
We stayed home the first three weeks but since then we have gone about our lives.
Yppej should be a school teacher of 30 first graders, in person. It’s so safe.
Teacher Terry
9-8-20, 9:17pm
I totally agree Tybee. This conversation is sickening.
Of the five people I know who have had it, or the six people if I include Tammy, two, or three if I include Tammy, are having ongoing issues after having ‘recovered’. Two, Tammy and one other friend, are having significant fatigue and one person is having bad headaches. If my friends are a typical sample of what ‘recovery’ is like then I REALLY don’t want to get this disease. Especially since it looks like we will have a vaccine relatively soon. I will continue avoiding other people as much as I can, wear a mask anywhere outside the home, wash/sanitize my hands obsessively, and be glad that I live in the state and city that I do.
Of the five people I know who have had it, or the six people if I include Tammy, two, or three if I include Tammy, are having ongoing issues after having ‘recovered’. Two, Tammy and one other friend, are having significant fatigue and one person is having bad headaches. If my friends are a typical sample of what ‘recovery’ is like then I REALLY don’t want to get this disease. Especially since it looks like we will have a vaccine relatively soon. I will continue avoiding other people as much as I can, wear a mask anywhere outside the home, wash/sanitize my hands obsessively, and be glad that I live in the state and city that I do.
My sentiments exactly. Encouraging people to act like it's all business as usual out there is foolish bordering on criminal. Again, this is nothing like the flu.
The sister of a diving buddy (he’s in MI and his sister is elsewhere in the Midwest) has been hit very hard. She is a teacher. Not sure how she got it. Her FB posts have actually been making the rounds. She has had blisters. Severe fatigue. Can hardly walk. Many other issues.
I called my dentist for an appt yesterday. They will not let you even schedule an appt without proof of a negative Covid test. Then you have to show up for appt with proof of another negative test. That is crazy. They’ve always been very busy. A regular cleaning appt wasn’t possible for two months. My opinion this is simply to give them some breathing room on people wanting appts.
I called my dentist for an appt yesterday. They will not let you even schedule an appt without proof of a negative Covid test. Then you have to show up for appt with proof of another negative test. That is crazy. They’ve always been very busy. A regular cleaning appt wasn’t possible for two months. My opinion this is simply to give them some breathing room on people wanting appts.
My dentist office called me a few days ago to remind me I'm due for a cleaning, I made an appointment for the 16th. Unless they've changed their procedures without telling me I expect to get a temperature check when I arrive but other than masks in the waiting room, I think that's it.
My husband went to the dentist yesterday-chipped tooth. He sat in the parking lot, they called him to come in, took his temperature 3 times as it was too high. In and out pretty fast, felt very safe, everyone covered, sanitizing. today he's in a charity golf tournament...a little anxious about it and probably will not stay for the dinner after as there will be too many people. Golfing it's just the foursome and he has his mask.
We went to the dentist a month ago and nothing. They has removed magazines and books from the waiting room, wore masks and face shields for hygienist, but pretty standard. No temp check, testing, etc. And yet, I felt that they took adequate precautions.
iris lilies
9-9-20, 12:41pm
We went to the dentist a month ago and nothing. They has removed magazines and books from the waiting room, wore masks and face shields for hygienist, but pretty standard. No temp check, testing, etc. And yet, I felt that they took adequate precautions.That sounds like my dentist. I went for a cleaning after almost a year. Magazines an extra truck key is gone from the waiting room. They did take my temperature.
ApatheticNoMore
9-9-20, 12:50pm
The thing is we're 7 months in and most people's caution is going to loosen because it kind of can't be kept up indefinitely especially with literally no end or plan in sight, federal and local government as useless as ever - testing and contract tracing always rather sucking, hopes for rapid testing but no such thing actually available and who knows if it ever will be, treatments promised here and there but largely going nowhere much, other than maybe a vaccine in 2021, which may take months upon months to be distributed so even 2021 might be optimistic. The mental health impacts of keeping perfect vigilance at some point outweigh the real risk of covid, which I don't even deny can have long term complications.
Teachers and other school employees though signed up for a job, nothing more just a job, the exchange of skilled labor for a paycheck, not to be matyrs for someone else's rugrats that they don't want to take care of, never mind the grandparents etc. they might live with and expose if they went to school etc.. In a few parts of the country like NYC this might even be fairly low risk, in other parts eh not so much.
I am following World Health Organization guidelines on covid and not going for routine dentist visits until the pandemic is over, although my dentist's office keeps calling and mailing me as they are desperate for business. It surprises me all the people who think a mask is necessary, yet go to a setting where spray from a person's mouth gets all over the place while their teeth are being worked on.
I am following World Health Organization guidelines on covid and not going for routine dentist visits until the pandemic is over, although my dentist's office keeps calling and mailing me as they are desperate for business. It surprises me all the people who think a mask is necessary, yet go to a setting where spray from a person's mouth gets all over the place while their teeth are being worked on.At my dentist office, masks are not the only precaution taken. I believe they protect themselves admirably from the spray from my mouth and I know they sanitize everything in the room between patients. I think it's safer than going through a drive-through for an egg McMuffin or shopping in a store.
My dentist’s office has been using face shields and masks on the dentist and hygienist for years. Plus they don’t have the little bowl you spit into. They put water into your mouth with one hose and suction it out with another.
Requiring a negative Covid test just to make an appt that is two months out is just ridiculous.
The main reaction I've seen to covid is that everyone thinks their way is right and they are very judgmental of other people. For instance, there are a lot of mask zealots who socialize, including in restaurants with people outside their immediate household though you can't wear a mask when eating, who go to gatherings, go to the dentist, etc. I am the opposite. I think masks are only of very limited effectiveness, they usually aren't worn correctly, and they make people think it's okay to not socially distance. So I take other precautions and think my way is better.
There is no sense that we are all in this together. People get very heated and downright nasty in some cases because it's their way or the highway. Although a democracy should welcome varied points of view, there is no recognition that everyone is doing the best they can to get through this. The pandemic is also very politicized, with people on one side exaggerating it and on the other minimizing it, and folks choose which experts they want to listen to. For instance, the CDC bowed to the pressure of the ADA and so dental offices are open for routine services, despite the World Health Organization saying this is a bad idea. There is much we don't know about the virus, yet many think they know it all, and have all the answers for how others should behave, whilst in many cases ignoring the beam in their own eye.
Err on the side of caution... is my tenet.
Many teachers are protesting going to work because their buildings do not have brand new HVAC systems. This amazes me. I consider education an essential service. I don't see workers in medicine, supermarkets, police forces, firefighters, manufacturing, distribution, logistics - you name it, any other essential field - making these complaints. Lots of us work in older buildings. Life is not perfect or zero risk. They should get over their exceptionalism.
Russian trolls busy today.
ApatheticNoMore
9-9-20, 8:14pm
i err on the side of caution to a large degree, but there's a risk of that too going on 7 months (not for a month or two then you are just whining - want some cheese with that? But really we're on 7 months now - some might count from sooner but outbreaks weren't large most places before March but whatever I don't care to quibble if someone counts from Feb or Jan and started distancing then.)
It's a risk when you no longer turn down a routine dental cleaning which certainly makes sense to me, but won't go for an appointment when you lose a tooth or are kept up all night with a toothache. And months and months of extreme precaution and I certainly risk becoming that neurotic. The habits of not engaging with the world become extreme. Agorophobia threatens and pfft I didn't have it before but I am anxious by nature. The lack of social contact is extreme. Depression and despair threaten. When I went with bf to buy his hydrogen car (such a cool car choice), it felt like the most social contact I've had in forever. We only talked to a @#$# car dealer, but being around others in a place, it was just WOAH. Now maybe I didn't need to accompany him there and it took longer than expected but whatever I didn't get covid anyways. And I masked up seriously of course. But when that feels like more social contact than you've had in a while uh ... The lack of physical closeness to others (but bf yes yes but I want to hug my mom etc. I don't - heck I want to stand closer than 6 feet to people!). So eventually going on months and months one seeks a healthy medium in living their lives. It doesn't mean I need the bars open, I certainly would prefer they stay closed, it doesn't mean I need indoor gyms open but I might consider an outdoor gym, it's the medium of caution within what is allowed in CA now, not some let it all rip thing.
As for Russian trolls: better Russian trolls please. In one post yeppej is all can't we all just get along, people are too judgemental, "everyone is too my way or the highway". In the next yeppej is extremely judgemental of teachers wanting more precautions before going back to work. Who is judging now? And thinks it's her way or the highway determining what they should do. It's not exceptionalism, it's the ability to have some say over working conditions due to unionization. If not unionized and not likely to be, I guess one has to try other strategies, Google etc. also working from home but in jobs that are made for it. Dragging everyone down to "work will set you free" level is really not an improvement for almost anyone.
This is a test of us as a nation. Our "leader" is a cruel joke, so we're on our own. What if Londoners had balked at turning off the lights during the Blitz? Individual freedom, don'tcha know...Other countries have followed guidelines and have prevailed. IMO, we're pathetic.
Individual freedom, don'tcha know...Other countries have followed guidelines and have prevailed. IMO, we're pathetic.Well, this country was founded upon the principle of individual liberty outside the tyranny of an oppressive government. It's been part of our national character for so long those of us who believe in that sort of thing would rather do things for the right reason than demand our leaders force us to do so. I think that's the opposite of pathetic, but being able to disagree may be the ultimate personal liberty these days. I hope we all get to keep it.
We're forced to do all kinds of things all the time in this country that we may not want to do. I don't think it's too much to ask of a "leader" to consider the issues, and set an example. For example, make sure all the states get PPE under a fair distribution system. YMMV.
rosarugosa
9-10-20, 5:56pm
That sounds like my dentist. I went for a cleaning after almost a year. Magazines an extra truck key is gone from the waiting room. They did take my temperature.
IL: Does "extra truck key" translate to extra tchotchkes?
iris lilies
9-10-20, 7:02pm
IL: Does "extra truck key" translate to extra tchotchkes?
Why yes! Yes it does!
Me and my dictation software lady aim to provide you all entertainment! She is creative!
Why yes! Yes it does!
Me and my dictation software lady aim to provide you all entertainment! She is creative!
And I just thought "well, I guess they do it a bit different in Missouri." Thanks rosa for the clarification!
rosarugosa
9-11-20, 6:00am
It's like a guessing game sometimes!
I heard on the news - and believe these are US figures - 500,000 children have tested positive for covid and 103 have died, a mortality rate of .0002 percent among those tested. Even without factoring in all the untested children you see that this virus is not the big deal that those with a vested interest in hysteria, who want to keep the schools shut down, portray it to be.
And only five teachers have died so far. Including one who was 28. That probably seems really old to her students so we can lump her death in with your ‘old people dying is fine’ attitude, amiright?
Well, this country was founded upon the principle of individual liberty outside the tyranny of an oppressive government. It's been part of our national character for so long those of us who believe in that sort of thing would rather do things for the right reason than demand our leaders force us to do so. I think that's the opposite of pathetic, but being able to disagree may be the ultimate personal liberty these days. I hope we all get to keep it.
It's been my understanding that personal freedoms end or need to be limited when that restricts the liberties of others. Like, limiting exposure to second hand smoke or drinking and driving. I see similarities in Covid behavior and following healthy guidelines. It's not like it's unconditional, although there are certainly gray areas.
rosarugosa
9-11-20, 10:25am
Why yes! Yes it does!
Me and my dictation software lady aim to provide you all entertainment! She is creative!
Do I win the coveted Golden Salad Spinner Award?
iris lilies
9-11-20, 12:23pm
Do I win the coveted Golden Salad Spinner Award?
Yes you do! For sure.
frugal-one
9-11-20, 4:05pm
Well, this country was founded upon the principle of individual liberty outside the tyranny of an oppressive government. It's been part of our national character for so long those of us who believe in that sort of thing would rather do things for the right reason than demand our leaders force us to do so. I think that's the opposite of pathetic, but being able to disagree may be the ultimate personal liberty these days. I hope we all get to keep it.
Opporative words... We are in a PANDEMIC!!! There are people who believe they have the right to infect me because they don't want to wear a mask. Where are my rights to be safe? In this instance (Pandemic) I believe it should be mandated that everyone wear a mask in a business or where they cannot social distance. This is not a political issue but a medical one!
I agree with Rogar's post above.
Opporative words... We are in a PANDEMIC!!! There are people who believe they have the right to infect me because they don't want to wear a mask. Where are my rights to be safe? In this instance (Pandemic) I believe it should be mandated that everyone wear a mask in a business or where they cannot social distance. This is not a political issue but a medical one!
I get what you're saying, I just don't like the idea of government mandates which then require punitive measures to punish any naysayers.
I admittedly don't get out as much as I used to but I do visit the local grocery store and hardware store and gas station from time to time. Maybe it's just my area but I haven't seen anyone violating mask guidelines while in proximity to others in months. Maybe they're all just reasonable people who figure that the guidelines make sense and it's in their interest to follow them but I'd hate to see the odd person without a mask face legal consequences for it.
Keep the guidelines and forget about punishing people for their lapses. I doubt their intent is to hurt you.
frugal-one
9-11-20, 5:45pm
I get what you're saying, I just don't like the idea of government mandates which then require punitive measures to punish any naysayers.
I admittedly don't get out as much as I used to but I do visit the local grocery store and hardware store and gas station from time to time. Maybe it's just my area but I haven't seen anyone violating mask guidelines while in proximity to others in months. Maybe they're all just reasonable people who figure that the guidelines make sense and it's in their interest to follow them but I'd hate to see the odd person without a mask face legal consequences for it.
Keep the guidelines and forget about punishing people for their lapses. I doubt their intent is to hurt you.
Just saw 2 guys today without masks. It is mandated here too. Saw another guy today (while I was out walking) who went into a store and they made him leave and come back with a mask. There are still trumpers that think this is a hoax or they have a right to inflict their stupidity on others. I believe these people should get fined. They continue in this vein and they will have the virus and pass it on. Why don't they get this is a pandemic?
There are still trumpers that think this is a hoax or they have a right to inflict their stupidity on others. I believe these people should get fined.
Damn Trumpers!
frugal-one
9-11-20, 5:52pm
Damn Trumpers!
I agree. It is moronic.
Trump is now on record saying that he knew this was a dangerous pandemic and he deliberately downplayed it--to the extent of saying it was the "new Democrat hoax" and repeatedly chiding people for wearing masks. Now he's replaced Drs. Fauci and Birx with a sycophant (a radiologist--probably less useful than a dentist when combating infectious disease) putting stock in the repeatedly debunked "herd immunity" theory, and going along with Trump's "no testing" policy.
I agree. It is moronic.They oughta be fined whether they wear a mask or not, dontcha think?
frugal-one
9-11-20, 8:09pm
They oughta be fined whether they wear a mask or not, dontcha think?
How do you justify trump having a rally of over 15,000 people? trump does not wear a mask or require them to do so. He obviously does not care about his base. As was in the news.... he has known early on that the virus is by airborne spread. Dontcha think that is moronic? rump is obviously a large part of the problem.
How do you justify trump having a rally of over 15,000 people? trump does not wear a mask or require them to do so. He obviously does not care about his base. As was in the news.... he has known early on that the virus is by airborne spread. Dontcha think that is moronic? rump is obviously a large part of the problem.I understand they hand out masks at those rallies, that takes us back to the original question. Do you want them arrested or fined and does that desire have anything to do with whether or not they're wearing a mask?
ApatheticNoMore
9-11-20, 8:54pm
As was in the news.... he has known early on that the virus is by airborne spread.
There was no consensus that the virus was airborne (and mostly otherwise) when Trump supposedly believed it was airborne (well travels in the air). So Trump uniquely ahead of the curve in having an understanding of things, or making stuff up? Uh it's Trump of course it's believing whatever is in his head that day. Trump denotes none of whatever brain power he might have to stuff that doesn't very narrowly interest him. But as for what did he know and when did he know it, that didn't even exist in our knowledge of the disease at the time I suspect.
But suspecting it was dangerous was of course warranted and he suspected it was dangerous and did little about it. That much is true.
I understand they hand out masks at those rallies, that takes us back to the original question. Do you want them arrested or fined and does that desire have anything to do with whether or not they're wearing a mask?
The question is, is it acceptable for them to refuse a mask, get infected, and then go infect others? Personally I'd say no, but I suppose other people might say "but, muh freedom!" 250,000 cases have now been tied to Sturgis. How many restaurant workers and others they subsequently interacted with in that area have now had their lives effed up, potentially fatally, because of the irresponsibility of so many people? Assuming a 1% death rate that's 2500 lives cut short because selfish people insisted on having their annual biker vacation.
I'm now up to six people I personally know that have been infected. I learned today that the unplanned three week absence a professional contact took about six weeks ago was because he had covid. (eight people if I include his wife and young son who I've never met). MG, my professional contact, had a moderately severe case, two weeks of serious fever, coughing, etc, but didn't end up in the hospital. His wife had a mild case, his young son no symptoms at all but now has antibodies. Fortunately MG has good insurance and an understanding employer so he was able to take the time he needed and had access to top notch healthcare.
There was no consensus that the virus was airborne (and mostly otherwise) when Trump supposedly believed it was airborne (well travels in the air). So Trump uniquely ahead of the curve in having an understanding of things, or making stuff up? Uh it's Trump of course it's believing whatever is in his head that day. Trump denotes none of whatever brain power he might have to stuff that doesn't very narrowly interest him. But as for what did he know and when did he know it, that didn't even exist in our knowledge of the disease at the time I suspect.
But suspecting it was dangerous was of course warranted and he suspected it was dangerous and did little about it. That much is true.
For him to be discussing the idea that it was transmitted airborne at that time likely means that people like Fauci had informed him that that was the case, or at least the suspected case, well before the rest of us were informed of that now well understood fact.
The question is, is it acceptable for them to refuse a mask, get infected, and then go infect others? Personally I'd say no, but I suppose other people might say "but, muh freedom!" 250,000 cases have now been tied to Sturgis.
250,000 or maybe only 290 according to the AP. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-superspreader-johns-hopkins-research-doubt/ , and again by The Huffington Post https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-death-coronavirus_n_5f4ff1a5c5b62b3add3b4cc3
I guess it depends upon who you ask and which narrative they wish to advance.
I'm now up to six people I personally know that have been infected. I learned today that the unplanned three week absence a professional contact took about six weeks ago was because he had covid. (eight people if I include his wife and young son who I've never met). MG, my professional contact, had a moderately severe case, two weeks of serious fever, coughing, etc, but didn't end up in the hospital. His wife had a mild case, his young son no symptoms at all but now has antibodies. Fortunately MG has good insurance and an understanding employer so he was able to take the time he needed and had access to top notch healthcare.
I'm curious, among your associates who have had Covid has there been any commonality of possible exposure or lax behavior? There are the obvious super spreader events like Sturgis and a few more isolated cases that I've read about in the news, but there is no one in my social circle or their families or friends who have had it. Most of us are retired and have the luxury of being safer at home and have generally followed something like what Fauci recommends for good practice, but there are a few multigenerational families with younger school teachers teaching remotely and also some child care duties. My area has not shown up as any big hot spot but probably falls somewhere in the middle for infection severity.
I'm curious, among your associates who have had Covid has there been any commonality of possible exposure or lax behavior? There are the obvious super spreader events like Sturgis and a few more isolated cases that I've read about in the news, but there is no one in my social circle or their families or friends who have had it. Most of us are retired and have the luxury of being safer at home and have generally followed something like what Fauci recommends for good practice, but there are a few multigenerational families with younger school teachers teaching remotely and also some child care duties. My area has not shown up as any big hot spot but probably falls somewhere in the middle for infection severity.
There doesn’t seem to be any definitive pattern that I can see except maybe plane travel. Three traveled by plane in February and March. One lives in nyc and probably got it either on transit or at a store before masking was universal. One just got it despite serious efforts to play it safe and one likely got it through their kid’s daycare because several families got it.
We’re continuing to stay home as much as possible but since we’re moving in a week we’ve had random people in our home and will have to do so some more over the next week and a half. A risk but there’s not really anything we can do to avoid it other than mask up, wash hands a lot and open windows.
ApatheticNoMore
9-12-20, 12:41am
For him to be discussing the idea that it was transmitted airborne at that time likely means that people like Fauci had informed him that that was the case, or at least the suspected case, well before the rest of us were informed of that now well understood fact.
So the World Health Organization was in on the lying (of course the CDC). Tell me is there anything Fauci doesn't lie to us about then, all of them costing lives? Because not being informed of this costs lives as with masks. And that's the real scandal here then and Trump a mere distraction. To deliberately withhold from the public information that could save lives when you know better and you are the expert: immoral and likely criminal. Send them all to the Hague (Trump and Fauci) if it can be proven.
250,000 or maybe only 290 according to the AP. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-superspreader-johns-hopkins-research-doubt/ , and again by The Huffington Post https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-death-coronavirus_n_5f4ff1a5c5b62b3add3b4cc3
I guess it depends upon who you ask and which narrative they wish to advance.
This is the new infections map as of 8/31. I wonder what that big red blob in western south dakota is...3430
So the World Health Organization was in on the lying (of course the CDC). Tell me is there anything Fauci doesn't lie to us about then, all of them costing lives? Because not being informed of this costs lives as with masks. And that's the real scandal here then and Trump a mere distraction. To deliberately withhold from the public information that could save lives when you know better and you are the expert: immoral and likely criminal. Send them all to the Hague (Trump and Fauci) if it can be proven.
Knowing that a not insignificant amount of Americans have a tendency towards selfishness and non-empathy what should Fauci have done? I agree that lying about the usefulness of masks was wrong. And definitely affects his credibility for forever. But if he had said ‘wear a mask’ in February or early March how many people would have run out and bought 5,000 masks, leaving none for healthcare workers? Or worse, done like the asshole who rented a big truck and ran around and bought up all the sanitizer at every store he could get to in Ohio or wherever it was.
rosarugosa
9-12-20, 6:35am
I get what you're saying, I just don't like the idea of government mandates which then require punitive measures to punish any naysayers.
I admittedly don't get out as much as I used to but I do visit the local grocery store and hardware store and gas station from time to time. Maybe it's just my area but I haven't seen anyone violating mask guidelines while in proximity to others in months. Maybe they're all just reasonable people who figure that the guidelines make sense and it's in their interest to follow them but I'd hate to see the odd person without a mask face legal consequences for it.
Keep the guidelines and forget about punishing people for their lapses. I doubt their intent is to hurt you.
Alan, If someone gives me the virus, I won't much care if their intent was to cause me harm or not.
There doesn’t seem to be any definitive pattern that I can see except maybe plane travel. Three traveled by plane in February and March. One lives in nyc and probably got it either on transit or at a store before masking was universal. One just got it despite serious efforts to play it safe and one likely got it through their kid’s daycare because several families got it.
We’re continuing to stay home as much as possible but since we’re moving in a week we’ve had random people in our home and will have to do so some more over the next week and a half. A risk but there’s not really anything we can do to avoid it other than mask up, wash hands a lot and open windows.
Thanks, that's interesting. Not exactly super spreader events, but mostly higher risk situations from what we now know.
I see a big threat to civil liberties from those who want to fine and arrest people for not wearing masks, or infinitely worse, for not believing in wearing masks.
My son's friend teaches first grade in Maine, and on the first day of school, one of his students announced that Covid was a conspiracy and ripped his mask off and threw it in the trash.
Are you going to arrest him? Take him away from his parents saying they are unfit parents?
My experience here is like Alan's--people are working hard to wear masks and socially distance and do everything that is requested of them.
Assuming people are ill intentioned or criminals because they might be carriers of a disease--we still have to live together, and this does not help at all.
iris lilies
9-12-20, 12:14pm
It’s always 20% of the people causing 80% of the problems. The good old 80/20 rule. In any organized social activity, there’s always those who think the rules don’t apply to them. Then there are the ones who comply but they bitch and moan about it.
In our community garden this year our rate of poor participation was low, only two or three beds out of 40 were useless dolts. Usually we have 6 or 7 problem children. Another example— Our friend is in charge of collecting $2000 from each household that goes into a fund to repaint their row house facade. He said 2 households didn’t pay last year and haven’t yet paid this year. He said that’s the rate no matter who is living in those units, it’s always 2 who don’t pay up.
There is always without fail a rate of noncompliance regardless of the social rule, regardless of the social strata, regardless of the issue.
The Washington Post had a recent article surveying major cities around the world and what is permitted and what is not. Nearly ever city requires masks and most have police checks and fines. There are reasons why we have such a high number of infections and I could speculate that at least some of some of it comes down to expressions of personal liberty at the risk of others.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/07/16/coronavirus-pandemic-cities-reopening/?arc404=true
rosarugosa
9-12-20, 2:17pm
It's been my understanding that personal freedoms end or need to be limited when that restricts the liberties of others. Like, limiting exposure to second hand smoke or drinking and driving. I see similarities in Covid behavior and following healthy guidelines. It's not like it's unconditional, although there are certainly gray areas.
Yes, this is my understanding as well.
frugal-one
9-12-20, 6:40pm
I understand they hand out masks at those rallies, that takes us back to the original question. Do you want them arrested or fined and does that desire have anything to do with whether or not they're wearing a mask?
The point is... we are IN A PANDEMIC!!! If people do not wear masks to protect others and themselves they should be fined or worse. They are totally stupid... including our moron president. People protect their possessions by all means possible... shouldn't our health be protected also?
frugal-one
9-12-20, 6:45pm
I get what you're saying, I just don't like the idea of government mandates which then require punitive measures to punish any naysayers.
I admittedly don't get out as much as I used to but I do visit the local grocery store and hardware store and gas station from time to time. Maybe it's just my area but I haven't seen anyone violating mask guidelines while in proximity to others in months. Maybe they're all just reasonable people who figure that the guidelines make sense and it's in their interest to follow them but I'd hate to see the odd person without a mask face legal consequences for it.
Keep the guidelines and forget about punishing people for their lapses. I doubt their intent is to hurt you.
What is the point of having guidelines then? I really don't care their intent!
An odd person would be able to get a mask free of charge in many places. That is no excuse.
frugal-one
9-12-20, 6:47pm
I see a big threat to civil liberties from those who want to fine and arrest people for not wearing masks, or infinitely worse, for not believing in wearing masks.
My son's friend teaches first grade in Maine, and on the first day of school, one of his students announced that Covid was a conspiracy and ripped his mask off and threw it in the trash.
Are you going to arrest him? Take him away from his parents saying they are unfit parents?
My experience here is like Alan's--people are working hard to wear masks and socially distance and do everything that is requested of them.
Assuming people are ill intentioned or criminals because they might be carriers of a disease--we still have to live together, and this does not help at all.
IMO that child should be sent home and suspended. If it continues... suspended indefinitely. The parents are teaching this child this nonsense.
The other children there need to be protected.
frugal-one
9-12-20, 6:53pm
The point is... we are IN A PANDEMIC!!! If people do not wear masks to protect others and themselves they should be fined or worse. They are totally stupid... including our moron president. People protect their possessions by all means possible... shouldn't our health be protected also?
See Rogar's post above.
IMO that child should be sent home and suspended. If it continues... suspended indefinitely. The parents are teaching this child this nonsense.
The other children there need to be protected.
I guess I see it differently. The children in school are already getting "mask breaks" so they are not wearing the masks for the entire class period. The risk he presented with his action was no more than the risk they all present each other several times a day.
Suspending a first grader on the first day of school seems antithetical to the idea of education. Here is your opportunity to teach how to get along with others and to look out for others and to live in a civilized society.
I find this situation ironic, as did the teacher. If nothing else, the child is thinking critically, which is another goal of public education. If you believe Covid is a conspiracy, then why wear a mask? That is impressive logic for a six year old. Well ahead of his age, developmentally speaking.
If you are a teacher, you are there to teach. So get teaching.
Oh well. Praying they all stay safe. He is not in my granddaughter's pod as he is in a different district. Half her class is being kept home by their parents and homeschooled. Of the 30 registered, only 14 are actually going to school at the school, and they are in two pods of 7, and only go to school two days a week.
My husband said he would have kept the kids home if we were in that situation. Why risk it? I would have done the same thing. But I totally understand what my son was trying to do by sending her.
frugal-one
9-12-20, 7:23pm
I guess I see it differently. The children in school are already getting "mask breaks" so they are not wearing the masks for the entire class period. The risk he presented with his action was no more than the risk they all present each other several times a day.
Suspending a first grader on the first day of school seems antithetical to the idea of education. Here is your opportunity to teach how to get along with others and to look out for others and to live in a civilized society.
I find this situation ironic, as did the teacher. If nothing else, the child is thinking critically, which is another goal of public education. If you believe Covid is a conspiracy, then why wear a mask? That is impressive logic for a six year old. Well ahead of his age, developmentally speaking.
If you are a teacher, you are there to teach. So get teaching.
Oh well. Praying they all stay safe. He is not in my granddaughter's pod as he is in a different district. Half her class is being kept home by their parents and homeschooled. Of the 30 registered, only 14 are actually going to school at the school, and they are in two pods of 7, and only go to school two days a week.
My husband said he would have kept the kids home if we were in that situation. Why risk it? I would have done the same thing. But I totally understand what my son was trying to do by sending her.
Come on... a first grader is being taught this at home.
Of course he is. He has a belief system from what he has learned at home. He is then given an instuction and he compares the instruction to his belief system, and he rejects the instruction as illogical, inconsistent with the belief system. That is very unusual for a six-year-old, developmentally speaking.
Most six-year olds will do what they are told. That's all I was trying to say, that along with the idea that here is a perfect opportunity to actually teach this child something about getting along with others and being a part of a civilized society.
frugal-one
9-12-20, 10:07pm
Oh brother. hogwash..... goobledygook!
iris lilies
9-12-20, 10:10pm
Oh brother. hogwash..... goobledygook!
Your prowess in debate techniques never cease to astound me.
frugal-one
9-12-20, 10:11pm
Your prowess in debate techniques never cease to astound me.
Happy to oblige.
Teacher Terry
9-14-20, 12:07pm
Now the orange moron had 2 rallies in Nevada. Reno and Vegas said no so he went to the small town of Minden. 5k/crowd with people close together and no masks. Then a indoor rally in Henderson because his friend owns it. Ugh! Our state has a rule no more than 50 people. Local law enforcement refused to get involved. If there’s any justice he will get it.
I'm trying--and failing--to imagine Eisenhower or Bush Sr. or LBJ holding mass adoration rallies. Or publicly referring to other nations as "shit-hole countries." Or any one of a number of astonishing aberrations Trump's engaged in--and I can't even come close. He's one of a kind, and not in a good way--certainly proving, over and over, that money can't buy class.
frugal-one
9-14-20, 2:37pm
Yes, trump is above the law. He openly is defying state regulations and his own administration's pandemic health guidelines. According to the paper, those in the stands directly behind trump, whose images would end up on tv, were mandated to wear face coverings. I think he should be arrested or fined! I guess he wants his base to catch the virus??? ..... a true moron!
Yes, trump is above the law. He openly is defying state regulations and his own administration's pandemic health guidelines. According to the paper, those in the stands directly behind trump, whose images would end up on tv, were mandated to wear face coverings. I think he should be arrested or fined! I guess he wants his base to catch the virus??? ..... a true moron!
Hand in hand with Bill Barr--his own personal AG, willing to bend or break any convention or law in service to his master.
He’s not ignoring his government’s pandemic recommendations. He’s putting non scientific political hacks in charge or the government organizations that make those recommendations to make sure that good recommendations don’t get made. . Sounds very unamerican but I’m sure his sad ‘team red forever’ non-supporters will stand behind him 110% and claim that it’s no big deal because that’s just the sad way they are. And then those same ‘non-supporters’ will wonder why the rest of us think they are shitty humans who hate America.
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